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The Lib Dem Factor
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By *bernath OP Couple
over a year ago
Gloucestershire |
Lib Dems be kicking some serious tory butt, and spanking Labour also.
I think the Lib Dems are slowly rebuilding after the coalition years, they attract both soft tory and soft labour voters quite easily and could be King maker as part of a rainbow coalition when the next GE is another hung parliament.
Clock is ticking, but it looks like we could be at the start of a new era or politics, not one of single party rule but of agreement, and this is without PR. |
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
We need Proportional Representation. It will actually help to clean up some aspects of politics.
Conservatives can purge themselves of far right (who can go back to forming their own party) and then firmly hold the centre right ground.
Labour can purge themselves of far left (who can go back to forming their own party) and then firmly hold the centre left ground.
Lib Dems can properly hold centre ground.
Smaller parties van rightfully get a voice at the table because voters can actually vote for what matters to them, removing tribalist or tactical voting. Some of those burning platforms can then force the bigger parties to actually listen and take action. |
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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago
Manchester |
"We need Proportional Representation. It will actually help to clean up some aspects of politics.
Conservatives can purge themselves of far right (who can go back to forming their own party) and then firmly hold the centre right ground.
Labour can purge themselves of far left (who can go back to forming their own party) and then firmly hold the centre left ground.
Lib Dems can properly hold centre ground.
Smaller parties van rightfully get a voice at the table because voters can actually vote for what matters to them, removing tribalist or tactical voting. Some of those burning platforms can then force the bigger parties to actually listen and take action."
Totally agree with this and can’t understand why more people can’t see the benefits.
They are worried about hung parliament but that’s the point. It makes politicians work together rather than bludgeon through extreme views and no one sector of society will benefit over another. |
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
"We need Proportional Representation. It will actually help to clean up some aspects of politics.
Conservatives can purge themselves of far right (who can go back to forming their own party) and then firmly hold the centre right ground.
Labour can purge themselves of far left (who can go back to forming their own party) and then firmly hold the centre left ground.
Lib Dems can properly hold centre ground.
Smaller parties van rightfully get a voice at the table because voters can actually vote for what matters to them, removing tribalist or tactical voting. Some of those burning platforms can then force the bigger parties to actually listen and take action.
Totally agree with this and can’t understand why more people can’t see the benefits.
They are worried about hung parliament but that’s the point. It makes politicians work together rather than bludgeon through extreme views and no one sector of society will benefit over another. "
Some of the common objections to PR just don’t hold any validity with me:
1) Hung parliaments = will result in coalitions ensuring a more balanced approach to policy making and avoiding ability to steamroller through policies harmful to one sector of the electorate.
2) Small parties wield too much influence = no they can actually represent and push the agenda of what matters to a large enough proportion of people in the country that secures them an MP(s). If it matters to them it should be represented.
3) It opens door to extremism = rather have extreme views out in the open then infiltrate mainstream parties and push their agenda by stealth! And while it may be unpalatable to the majority, if 2m people are fascists in the UK then it is only right they can voice and have their views represented. Same if there are 2m communists. That is democracy and representation.
4) Breaks constituency politics = it is quite clear that some MPs take this more seriously than others. Also clear that party whips completely undermine ability for MPs to act in interests of constituents over national party policy. It is becoming a myth. Better to break the link and actually increase the power and influence of Councillors with more control over local policy and ability to lobby national parties. |
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By *atEvolutionCouple
over a year ago
atlantisEVOLUTION Swingers Club. Stoke. |
The Lib Dem shift was simply a protest at the Cons and more seriously a protest at Labour - When it comes to the next GE, the Lib Dems do not have a cat in hells chance of winning outright, and I doubt winning by coalition either.
Sadly. We don't have a third way.  |
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By *atEvolutionCouple
over a year ago
atlantisEVOLUTION Swingers Club. Stoke. |
"We need Proportional Representation. It will actually help to clean up some aspects of politics.
Conservatives can purge themselves of far right (who can go back to forming their own party) and then firmly hold the centre right ground.
Labour can purge themselves of far left (who can go back to forming their own party) and then firmly hold the centre left ground.
Lib Dems can properly hold centre ground.
Smaller parties van rightfully get a voice at the table because voters can actually vote for what matters to them, removing tribalist or tactical voting. Some of those burning platforms can then force the bigger parties to actually listen and take action.
Totally agree with this and can’t understand why more people can’t see the benefits.
They are worried about hung parliament but that’s the point. It makes politicians work together rather than bludgeon through extreme views and no one sector of society will benefit over another.
Some of the common objections to PR just don’t hold any validity with me:
1) Hung parliaments = will result in coalitions ensuring a more balanced approach to policy making and avoiding ability to steamroller through policies harmful to one sector of the electorate.
2) Small parties wield too much influence = no they can actually represent and push the agenda of what matters to a large enough proportion of people in the country that secures them an MP(s). If it matters to them it should be represented.
3) It opens door to extremism = rather have extreme views out in the open then infiltrate mainstream parties and push their agenda by stealth! And while it may be unpalatable to the majority, if 2m people are fascists in the UK then it is only right they can voice and have their views represented. Same if there are 2m communists. That is democracy and representation.
4) Breaks constituency politics = it is quite clear that some MPs take this more seriously than others. Also clear that party whips completely undermine ability for MPs to act in interests of constituents over national party policy. It is becoming a myth. Better to break the link and actually increase the power and influence of Councillors with more control over local policy and ability to lobby national parties."
PR is a dead horse no matter how hard you flog it, it just isn't ever going to happen.  |
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"We need Proportional Representation. It will actually help to clean up some aspects of politics.
Conservatives can purge themselves of far right (who can go back to forming their own party) and then firmly hold the centre right ground.
Labour can purge themselves of far left (who can go back to forming their own party) and then firmly hold the centre left ground.
Lib Dems can properly hold centre ground.
Smaller parties van rightfully get a voice at the table because voters can actually vote for what matters to them, removing tribalist or tactical voting. Some of those burning platforms can then force the bigger parties to actually listen and take action.
Totally agree with this and can’t understand why more people can’t see the benefits.
They are worried about hung parliament but that’s the point. It makes politicians work together rather than bludgeon through extreme views and no one sector of society will benefit over another.
Some of the common objections to PR just don’t hold any validity with me:
1) Hung parliaments = will result in coalitions ensuring a more balanced approach to policy making and avoiding ability to steamroller through policies harmful to one sector of the electorate.
2) Small parties wield too much influence = no they can actually represent and push the agenda of what matters to a large enough proportion of people in the country that secures them an MP(s). If it matters to them it should be represented.
3) It opens door to extremism = rather have extreme views out in the open then infiltrate mainstream parties and push their agenda by stealth! And while it may be unpalatable to the majority, if 2m people are fascists in the UK then it is only right they can voice and have their views represented. Same if there are 2m communists. That is democracy and representation.
4) Breaks constituency politics = it is quite clear that some MPs take this more seriously than others. Also clear that party whips completely undermine ability for MPs to act in interests of constituents over national party policy. It is becoming a myth. Better to break the link and actually increase the power and influence of Councillors with more control over local policy and ability to lobby national parties.
PR is a dead horse no matter how hard you flog it, it just isn't ever going to happen. "
Agree. The Tories will never allow any risk to them staying in power. |
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By *atEvolutionCouple
over a year ago
atlantisEVOLUTION Swingers Club. Stoke. |
"
PR is a dead horse no matter how hard you flog it, it just isn't ever going to happen.
Agree. The Tories will never allow any risk to them staying in power."
It's nothing to do with the tories it's to do with the fact that it doesn't represent democracy. |
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"Lib Dems be kicking some serious tory butt, and spanking Labour also.
I think the Lib Dems are slowly rebuilding after the coalition years, they attract both soft tory and soft labour voters quite easily and could be King maker as part of a rainbow coalition when the next GE is another hung parliament.
Clock is ticking, but it looks like we could be at the start of a new era or politics, not one of single party rule but of agreement, and this is without PR."
It would be nice for them to be strong again after Clegg did his damage
The reality of us being a 2 party system a la USA is awful
There's no real choice then, just scum in different colour ties |
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
"
PR is a dead horse no matter how hard you flog it, it just isn't ever going to happen.
Agree. The Tories will never allow any risk to them staying in power.
It's nothing to do with the tories it's to do with the fact that it doesn't represent democracy."
 sorry but that is utter crap. It is the epitome of democracy because every vote counts and leads to representation.
It won’t happen because in the past FPTP worked to maintain the two party system. Now in the future with boundary changes and photo ID things are even more skewed to favour the Tories. Once Labour wake up to that they may change their minds. Otherwise it is unlikely they will ever get in! |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
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"We need Proportional Representation. It will actually help to clean up some aspects of politics.
Conservatives can purge themselves of far right (who can go back to forming their own party) and then firmly hold the centre right ground.
Labour can purge themselves of far left (who can go back to forming their own party) and then firmly hold the centre left ground.
Lib Dems can properly hold centre ground.
Smaller parties van rightfully get a voice at the table because voters can actually vote for what matters to them, removing tribalist or tactical voting. Some of those burning platforms can then force the bigger parties to actually listen and take action.
Totally agree with this and can’t understand why more people can’t see the benefits.
They are worried about hung parliament but that’s the point. It makes politicians work together rather than bludgeon through extreme views and no one sector of society will benefit over another.
Some of the common objections to PR just don’t hold any validity with me:
1) Hung parliaments = will result in coalitions ensuring a more balanced approach to policy making and avoiding ability to steamroller through policies harmful to one sector of the electorate.
2) Small parties wield too much influence = no they can actually represent and push the agenda of what matters to a large enough proportion of people in the country that secures them an MP(s). If it matters to them it should be represented.
3) It opens door to extremism = rather have extreme views out in the open then infiltrate mainstream parties and push their agenda by stealth! And while it may be unpalatable to the majority, if 2m people are fascists in the UK then it is only right they can voice and have their views represented. Same if there are 2m communists. That is democracy and representation.
4) Breaks constituency politics = it is quite clear that some MPs take this more seriously than others. Also clear that party whips completely undermine ability for MPs to act in interests of constituents over national party policy. It is becoming a myth. Better to break the link and actually increase the power and influence of Councillors with more control over local policy and ability to lobby national parties."
PR is definitely the way to go even if it is messy and slows decision making but as we saw with the DUP and Brexit smaller parties in FPTP might think they have influence but it’s not the same as PR would give them. |
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By *atEvolutionCouple
over a year ago
atlantisEVOLUTION Swingers Club. Stoke. |
"
PR is a dead horse no matter how hard you flog it, it just isn't ever going to happen.
Agree. The Tories will never allow any risk to them staying in power.
It's nothing to do with the tories it's to do with the fact that it doesn't represent democracy.
sorry but that is utter crap. It is the epitome of democracy because every vote counts and leads to representation.
It won’t happen because in the past FPTP worked to maintain the two party system. Now in the future with boundary changes and photo ID things are even more skewed to favour the Tories. Once Labour wake up to that they may change their minds. Otherwise it is unlikely they will ever get in!"
Actually Labour debated PR at one of their conferences and when they won power they decided it was a dead horse. Let's face it who wants to share majority power after all.
It will never ever happen. Because it gives unreasonable power to small parties that never gained the popular vote. Our election system will alway be plural. End of. |
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By *atEvolutionCouple
over a year ago
atlantisEVOLUTION Swingers Club. Stoke. |
The only people that want PR are the parties that can't get enough votes to be in power in their own right.
The only voters that want PR can't find a party big enough to put their choice in power.
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
"The only people that want PR are the parties that can't get enough votes to be in power in their own right.
The only voters that want PR can't find a party big enough to put their choice in power.
"
Your previous post was right. PR probably won’t happen (with Labour it was the idiot Trade Unions voting against it).
The post I quoted is not correct. Voters want choice and are getting increasingly disenfranchised by the current binary system, especially the young.
The voting public have never been given a chance of a referendum on PR only on AV that nobody could understand. |
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By *atEvolutionCouple
over a year ago
atlantisEVOLUTION Swingers Club. Stoke. |
AV was difficult for most experts to explain. PR less so but people still want 'surety' of understanding that what they vote for is what they are going to get. PR is a mess of what if in this situation and what if that in that situation. It's the people who are plural. |
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
"AV was difficult for most experts to explain. PR less so but people still want 'surety' of understanding that what they vote for is what they are going to get. PR is a mess of what if in this situation and what if that in that situation. It's the people who are plural. "
You forgot to add IMHO because that is clearly what it is, opinion, yours! |
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By *atEvolutionCouple
over a year ago
atlantisEVOLUTION Swingers Club. Stoke. |
Oh dear . . .
There is a MASS of well researched information out there that can be read to support 'just my OPINION'.
'Opponents of the coalition governments that traditional emerge from proportionate systems, also argue that the lack of a clear majority, increases the likelihood of indecision, compromise, and discord within parliament, generating governments which appear weak or unstable in judgement.'
Politics Now
'A referendum on changing the electoral system was put to the public in May 2011. The idea was rejected by 67.9% of those who took part.
Changing the Westminster voting system was rejected by a large majority in a 2011 referendum.
There is also an institutional paradox that thwarts the adoption of proportional representation.'
Hansard Library.
'In 2021, a motion to support Proportional Representation was debated at the Labour Party conference, but the proposals were rejected.'
See? Not just my opinion.
. . . it won't ever ever ever - did I just say ever ever ever? - happen regardless of whether you believe it to be my opinion or not.
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By *atEvolutionCouple
over a year ago
atlantisEVOLUTION Swingers Club. Stoke. |
hahaha
So it's your truth that 'is the truth' and anything else is just 'bias'.
Meanwhile. PR still ain't happening. I wonder why so many have stopped it in its tracks? Go ahead, take a guess. Maybe it's because . . ? |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"hahaha
So it's your truth that 'is the truth' and anything else is just 'bias'.
Meanwhile. PR still ain't happening. I wonder why so many have stopped it in its tracks? Go ahead, take a guess. Maybe it's because . . ?"
Im a Londoner ???????  |
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"hahaha
So it's your truth that 'is the truth' and anything else is just 'bias'.
Meanwhile. PR still ain't happening. I wonder why so many have stopped it in its tracks? Go ahead, take a guess. Maybe it's because . . ?"
40, of the 43 European countries have some form of PR.
It's not that uncommon.
I agree it'll never happen. The Tories will never allow anything to jeopardise getting reelected. |
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By *atEvolutionCouple
over a year ago
atlantisEVOLUTION Swingers Club. Stoke. |
"hahaha
So it's your truth that 'is the truth' and anything else is just 'bias'.
Meanwhile. PR still ain't happening. I wonder why so many have stopped it in its tracks? Go ahead, take a guess. Maybe it's because . . ?
40, of the 43 European countries have some form of PR.
It's not that uncommon.
I agree it'll never happen. The Tories will never allow anything to jeopardise getting reelected."
Labour voted against it too. |
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
"hahaha
So it's your truth that 'is the truth' and anything else is just 'bias'.
Meanwhile. PR still ain't happening. I wonder why so many have stopped it in its tracks? Go ahead, take a guess. Maybe it's because . . ?
40, of the 43 European countries have some form of PR.
It's not that uncommon.
I agree it'll never happen. The Tories will never allow anything to jeopardise getting reelected.
Labour voted against it too."
The Trade Unions voted against it along with the far left Corbynistas reeling against Starmer. |
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By *atEvolutionCouple
over a year ago
atlantisEVOLUTION Swingers Club. Stoke. |
Errrr hmmmmm Labour Party - Unions - and the connection is.
Fact:
'In 2021, a motion to support Proportional Representation was debated at the Labour Party conference, but the proposals were rejected.' |
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"hahaha
So it's your truth that 'is the truth' and anything else is just 'bias'.
Meanwhile. PR still ain't happening. I wonder why so many have stopped it in its tracks? Go ahead, take a guess. Maybe it's because . . ?
40, of the 43 European countries have some form of PR.
It's not that uncommon.
I agree it'll never happen. The Tories will never allow anything to jeopardise getting reelected.
Labour voted against it too."
Indeed.
We'll never have PR anytime soon. We're stuck with the Tories, and maybe, one day, Tory-lite. But doubtful. |
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By *atEvolutionCouple
over a year ago
atlantisEVOLUTION Swingers Club. Stoke. |
"hahaha
So it's your truth that 'is the truth' and anything else is just 'bias'.
Meanwhile. PR still ain't happening. I wonder why so many have stopped it in its tracks? Go ahead, take a guess. Maybe it's because . . ?
40, of the 43 European countries have some form of PR.
It's not that uncommon.
I agree it'll never happen. The Tories will never allow anything to jeopardise getting reelected.
Labour voted against it too.
Indeed.
We'll never have PR anytime soon. We're stuck with the Tories, and maybe, one day, Tory-lite. But doubtful."
Or maybe we need a Labour Party worth anything? |
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"hahaha
So it's your truth that 'is the truth' and anything else is just 'bias'.
Meanwhile. PR still ain't happening. I wonder why so many have stopped it in its tracks? Go ahead, take a guess. Maybe it's because . . ?
40, of the 43 European countries have some form of PR.
It's not that uncommon.
I agree it'll never happen. The Tories will never allow anything to jeopardise getting reelected.
Labour voted against it too.
Indeed.
We'll never have PR anytime soon. We're stuck with the Tories, and maybe, one day, Tory-lite. But doubtful.
Or maybe we need a Labour Party worth anything?"
Can't see that happening anytime soon.
The only way they stand a chance is to like the Tories. |
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
"Errrr hmmmmm Labour Party - Unions - and the connection is.
Fact:
'In 2021, a motion to support Proportional Representation was debated at the Labour Party conference, but the proposals were rejected.'"
Erm yes I know! You completely know the point being made, but I will spell it out... factions in the Labour party voted against it. Not really hard to grasp. |
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By *irldnCouple
over a year ago
Brighton |
I guess all the people in the following countries must be wrong to use PR (with some permutations)!
Albania Algeria Angola Argentina Armenia Aruba Australia Austria Belgium Benin Bolivia Bosnia and Herzegovina Brazil Bulgaria Burkina Faso Burundi Cambodia Cape Verde Chile Columbia Costa Rica Croatia Cyprus Czech Republic Denmark Dominion Republic East Timor El Salvador Equatorial Guinea Estonia European Union Faroe Islands Fiji Finland Germany Greece Greenland Guatemala Guinea-Bissau Guyana Honduras Iceland Indonesia Ireland Israel Italy Kazakhstan Kosovo Kyrgyzstan Latvia Lebanon Lesotho Liechtenstein Luxemburg Macedonia Malta Moldovia Montenegro Mozambique Namibia Netherlands New Zealand Nepal Northern Ireland Norway Paraguay Peru Poland Portugal Romania Rwanda San Marino Sao Tome and Principe Serbia Sint Maarten Slovakia Slovenia South Africa Spain Sri Lanka Suriname Sweden Switzerland Taiwan Togo Tunisia Turkey Japan Ukraine Uruguay |
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By *bernath OP Couple
over a year ago
Gloucestershire |
Getting away from the labour/tory psychodrama, it does show the Lib Dems slipping under the radar, and because of that a quiet comeback has happened, you don’t see much in the press about the Lib Dems, and that is probably a good thing, because it works in their favour as the alternative vote against both the tories and labour.
Which I would suspect will give them good gains in their future by elections. |
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"Getting away from the labour/tory psychodrama, it does show the Lib Dems slipping under the radar, and because of that a quiet comeback has happened, you don’t see much in the press about the Lib Dems, and that is probably a good thing, because it works in their favour as the alternative vote against both the tories and labour.
Which I would suspect will give them good gains in their future by elections."
As soon as they pose any threat to the Tories, the press will go after them. |
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"Getting away from the labour/tory psychodrama, it does show the Lib Dems slipping under the radar, and because of that a quiet comeback has happened, you don’t see much in the press about the Lib Dems, and that is probably a good thing, because it works in their favour as the alternative vote against both the tories and labour.
Which I would suspect will give them good gains in their future by elections."
I suspect it will indeed.
From my own admittedly echo-chamber, I estimate 80% of my friends vote Lib Dem, 10% Green, and 10% Labour. I don't actually know any of my friends who vote Conservative. 2 who are both successful Directors and big in the city are both rabidly anti-conservative (and Remainers) and voted Lib Dem. Hardly a reliable poll I know, but I do wonder where the conservative voters are these days. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"Lib Dems be kicking some serious tory butt, and spanking Labour also.
I think the Lib Dems are slowly rebuilding after the coalition years, they attract both soft tory and soft labour voters quite easily and could be King maker as part of a rainbow coalition when the next GE is another hung parliament.
Clock is ticking, but it looks like we could be at the start of a new era or politics, not one of single party rule but of agreement, and this is without PR."
As long as the Lib Dems don’t go too gun ho on the European question… just be pragmatic and say they want a closer relationship but not as part of the EU and they will come back and take a fair few seats back especially in the south |
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