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Starmer Smashed it, Kwarteng fluffed it
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By *bernath OP Couple
over a year ago
Gloucestershire |
Seeing both in action this morning.
There are clearer lines now.
I think Kwarteng let it slip there will be a GE next year.
Starmer was supported by TUC Leader on Labour supporting picketers by focusing on winning the next GE as showing solidarity with union members.
Taxes on income and 1.25% national insurance rise will remain on both sides.
Difference is that tories will continue to maintain 45% tax rate and labour will restore it.
6 months price freeze and review in April 2023 labour’s position, with price freeze costed and repayment being done by tax on energy supplier profits instead of the public purse.
2 years price freeze and no review by the tories, funded by the public purse.
Green energy by 2030 commitment to increase energy security, with backup fossil fuel usage by labour. Through business partnerships to meet the goal.
Investment in property insulation proposed by Labour
Tories -nothing on these.
Both want progressive tax systems.
Tories in favour of the rich, and the trickle down method.
Labour in favour of the entire social strata, with fair distribution across all boards.
Fair wages and fire and rehire, and zero hour contracts being supported by labour, to boost productivity.
Tories - maintain current status quo and abolishing working time directive to boost productivity.
Tories planning laws to be relaxed to ensure more housebuilding done, doesn’t commit on affordable house building.
Labour nothing.
Tories no answer on why the pound dropped whilst Kwarteng was talking about his actions.
Tories using Covid and Ukraine as talking points on why they are still underperforming.
Overall,
Starmer is creating a better vision for the UK, where peoples lives are not being gambled with, as opposed to tories being reckless and attempting to boost the economy we giving tax breaks for the rich and seeing if they give the crumbs off the table to the rest of society.
Odds of a Labour victory at GE, high. Opinion polls have shown that even with the change in leadership, Truss led government is still behind by five percentage points.
Even Boris’s first few weeks there was a massive upturn and rapidly.
Tories are applying the wait and see tactic, but 12 years of wait and see have not delivered anything but stagnant wages, stagnant economy, high inflation and no energy security. |
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The Conservative party has almost ruined us with unparalleled debt . High inflation a cost of living crisis and then reward us with giving away millions to the richest in our society. Meanwhile telling part time workers they must seek more work. It is all so unbelievable that ANYONE would vote for this scandal ridden bunch of incompetence again |
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
I will catch it later but from what you say it does sound better regarding Labour taking a position. On Friday evening Labour would not commit to reversing the 45p tax change so it's good that they have now. Hopefully they will continue with a clear vision instead of the usual ' you need to wait until the next GE' line. Truss has in a way helped make a clear difference of direction between the two parties which I think is going to help Labour more |
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"Meanwhile telling part time workers they must seek more work. "
So, what is wrong with this? Why should anyone think they can just work a few hours a week and let the state pick up the tab for the rest?
They aren't even asking people to work full time, just increasing the 9 hours minimum to 15 not 12 as was the plan.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Seeing both in action this morning.
There are clearer lines now.
I think Kwarteng let it slip there will be a GE next year.
Starmer was supported by TUC Leader on Labour supporting picketers by focusing on winning the next GE as showing solidarity with union members.
Taxes on income and 1.25% national insurance rise will remain on both sides.
Difference is that tories will continue to maintain 45% tax rate and labour will restore it.
6 months price freeze and review in April 2023 labour’s position, with price freeze costed and repayment being done by tax on energy supplier profits instead of the public purse.
2 years price freeze and no review by the tories, funded by the public purse.
Green energy by 2030 commitment to increase energy security, with backup fossil fuel usage by labour. Through business partnerships to meet the goal.
Investment in property insulation proposed by Labour
Tories -nothing on these.
Both want progressive tax systems.
Tories in favour of the rich, and the trickle down method.
Labour in favour of the entire social strata, with fair distribution across all boards.
Fair wages and fire and rehire, and zero hour contracts being supported by labour, to boost productivity.
Tories - maintain current status quo and abolishing working time directive to boost productivity.
Tories planning laws to be relaxed to ensure more housebuilding done, doesn’t commit on affordable house building.
Labour nothing.
Tories no answer on why the pound dropped whilst Kwarteng was talking about his actions.
Tories using Covid and Ukraine as talking points on why they are still underperforming.
Overall,
Starmer is creating a better vision for the UK, where peoples lives are not being gambled with, as opposed to tories being reckless and attempting to boost the economy we giving tax breaks for the rich and seeing if they give the crumbs off the table to the rest of society.
Odds of a Labour victory at GE, high. Opinion polls have shown that even with the change in leadership, Truss led government is still behind by five percentage points.
Even Boris’s first few weeks there was a massive upturn and rapidly.
Tories are applying the wait and see tactic, but 12 years of wait and see have not delivered anything but stagnant wages, stagnant economy, high inflation and no energy security."
Sure Labour is a dead cert winner of the next GE. I mean isn't there something that can be done not to even ask the electorate and just appoint Labour as the government. |
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"Sure Labour is a dead cert winner of the next GE. I mean isn't there something that can be done not to even ask the electorate and just appoint Labour as the government."
If Captain Hindsight and his band of incompetents are likely to get in we need to think about where to emigrate to. |
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"Sure Labour is a dead cert winner of the next GE. I mean isn't there something that can be done not to even ask the electorate and just appoint Labour as the government.
If Captain Hindsight and his band of incompetents are likely to get in we need to think about where to emigrate to."
Your choices are limited now that we have restricted our own freedom of movement. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Your choices are limited now that we have restricted our own freedom of movement.
Europe is more difficult, further afield about the same or easier."
I'm sure there are plenty of places in Europe that are very easy to emigrate to. But why would you? Stagnant economies, energy restrictions, political instability. You'd be better of moving to Venezuela. |
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"I'm sure there are plenty of places in Europe that are very easy to emigrate to. But why would you? Stagnant economies, energy restrictions, political instability. You'd be better of moving to Venezuela."
For Europe, France would be our choice. Slower pace of life, better quality of life, cheaper property. More than compensates for the higher day to day cost of living and the political games. And, yes, we'd probably be able to get a visa. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I'm sure there are plenty of places in Europe that are very easy to emigrate to. But why would you? Stagnant economies, energy restrictions, political instability. You'd be better of moving to Venezuela.
For Europe, France would be our choice. Slower pace of life, better quality of life, cheaper property. More than compensates for the higher day to day cost of living and the political games. And, yes, we'd probably be able to get a visa."
My friend's sister recently moved to France. No problems at all, just a lot of form filling, but that's France for you. Got to find something for all those government employees to do. |
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By *bernath OP Couple
over a year ago
Gloucestershire |
"It's amazing that folk think changing the marionette in parliament will lead to any meaningful change. They all dance to powerful groups and individuals and don't give a damn about any of us."
Yes powerful groups at different ends of the political spectrum
You have the tories and the rich, one powerful group, and labour and the rest of us, another powerful group.
Question is, which side do you ascribe to? Or do you prefer keeping the fence warm? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's amazing that folk think changing the marionette in parliament will lead to any meaningful change. They all dance to powerful groups and individuals and don't give a damn about any of us.
Yes powerful groups at different ends of the political spectrum
You have the tories and the rich, one powerful group, and labour and the rest of us, another powerful group.
Question is, which side do you ascribe to? Or do you prefer keeping the fence warm?"
That kind of doesn't really explain how far more working class people voted Conservative at the last general election than voted Labour. Maybe you should step out of the 1970's. |
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"It's amazing that folk think changing the marionette in parliament will lead to any meaningful change. They all dance to powerful groups and individuals and don't give a damn about any of us.
Yes powerful groups at different ends of the political spectrum
You have the tories and the rich, one powerful group, and labour and the rest of us, another powerful group.
Question is, which side do you ascribe to? Or do you prefer keeping the fence warm?
That kind of doesn't really explain how far more working class people voted Conservative at the last general election than voted Labour. Maybe you should step out of the 1970's."
One moment. Are you suggesting that the Conservative party being in power is better for working class people? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It's amazing that folk think changing the marionette in parliament will lead to any meaningful change. They all dance to powerful groups and individuals and don't give a damn about any of us.
Yes powerful groups at different ends of the political spectrum
You have the tories and the rich, one powerful group, and labour and the rest of us, another powerful group.
Question is, which side do you ascribe to? Or do you prefer keeping the fence warm?
That kind of doesn't really explain how far more working class people voted Conservative at the last general election than voted Labour. Maybe you should step out of the 1970's.
One moment. Are you suggesting that the Conservative party being in power is better for working class people?"
Well, assuming you can read, I merely stated a fact. Do you dispute it? |
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"It's amazing that folk think changing the marionette in parliament will lead to any meaningful change. They all dance to powerful groups and individuals and don't give a damn about any of us.
Yes powerful groups at different ends of the political spectrum
You have the tories and the rich, one powerful group, and labour and the rest of us, another powerful group.
Question is, which side do you ascribe to? Or do you prefer keeping the fence warm?
That kind of doesn't really explain how far more working class people voted Conservative at the last general election than voted Labour. Maybe you should step out of the 1970's.
One moment. Are you suggesting that the Conservative party being in power is better for working class people?
Well, assuming you can read, I merely stated a fact. Do you dispute it?"
I can read. I asked you a question for some clarification on the point you're making.
I'm neither confirming, nor disputing what you posted. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It's amazing that folk think changing the marionette in parliament will lead to any meaningful change. They all dance to powerful groups and individuals and don't give a damn about any of us.
Yes powerful groups at different ends of the political spectrum
You have the tories and the rich, one powerful group, and labour and the rest of us, another powerful group.
Question is, which side do you ascribe to? Or do you prefer keeping the fence warm?
That kind of doesn't really explain how far more working class people voted Conservative at the last general election than voted Labour. Maybe you should step out of the 1970's.
One moment. Are you suggesting that the Conservative party being in power is better for working class people?
Well, assuming you can read, I merely stated a fact. Do you dispute it?
I can read. I asked you a question for some clarification on the point you're making.
I'm neither confirming, nor disputing what you posted."
I stated a fact that more people in lower socio demographic classes voted Conservative in 2019 than voted Labour, by some margin. Though obviously in fact that was also true of all socio demographic groups.
The Left's claim to represent the working class is quite evidently incorrect, entitled and outdated.
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"It's amazing that folk think changing the marionette in parliament will lead to any meaningful change. They all dance to powerful groups and individuals and don't give a damn about any of us.
Yes powerful groups at different ends of the political spectrum
You have the tories and the rich, one powerful group, and labour and the rest of us, another powerful group.
Question is, which side do you ascribe to? Or do you prefer keeping the fence warm?
That kind of doesn't really explain how far more working class people voted Conservative at the last general election than voted Labour. Maybe you should step out of the 1970's.
One moment. Are you suggesting that the Conservative party being in power is better for working class people?
Well, assuming you can read, I merely stated a fact. Do you dispute it?
I can read. I asked you a question for some clarification on the point you're making.
I'm neither confirming, nor disputing what you posted.
I stated a fact that more people in lower socio demographic classes voted Conservative in 2019 than voted Labour, by some margin. Though obviously in fact that was also true of all socio demographic groups.
The Left's claim to represent the working class is quite evidently incorrect, entitled and outdated.
"
Okay, so I'm going to ask a question, to see can I clarify your point.
Are you suggesting, that working class people voted for the Tories because they represent the interests of ordinary people.
Or are you suggesting that working class people vote for the Tories because they think that they represent the interests of ordinary people, regardless of if they do or not?
Or something else entirely? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It's amazing that folk think changing the marionette in parliament will lead to any meaningful change. They all dance to powerful groups and individuals and don't give a damn about any of us.
Yes powerful groups at different ends of the political spectrum
You have the tories and the rich, one powerful group, and labour and the rest of us, another powerful group.
Question is, which side do you ascribe to? Or do you prefer keeping the fence warm?
That kind of doesn't really explain how far more working class people voted Conservative at the last general election than voted Labour. Maybe you should step out of the 1970's.
One moment. Are you suggesting that the Conservative party being in power is better for working class people?
Well, assuming you can read, I merely stated a fact. Do you dispute it?
I can read. I asked you a question for some clarification on the point you're making.
I'm neither confirming, nor disputing what you posted.
I stated a fact that more people in lower socio demographic classes voted Conservative in 2019 than voted Labour, by some margin. Though obviously in fact that was also true of all socio demographic groups.
The Left's claim to represent the working class is quite evidently incorrect, entitled and outdated.
Okay, so I'm going to ask a question, to see can I clarify your point.
Are you suggesting, that working class people voted for the Tories because they represent the interests of ordinary people.
Or are you suggesting that working class people vote for the Tories because they think that they represent the interests of ordinary people, regardless of if they do or not?
Or something else entirely?"
You'd have to ask each individual voter what their motivation was.
Do you think they all voted Conservative because they are thick? |
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"It's amazing that folk think changing the marionette in parliament will lead to any meaningful change. They all dance to powerful groups and individuals and don't give a damn about any of us.
Yes powerful groups at different ends of the political spectrum
You have the tories and the rich, one powerful group, and labour and the rest of us, another powerful group.
Question is, which side do you ascribe to? Or do you prefer keeping the fence warm?
That kind of doesn't really explain how far more working class people voted Conservative at the last general election than voted Labour. Maybe you should step out of the 1970's.
One moment. Are you suggesting that the Conservative party being in power is better for working class people?
Well, assuming you can read, I merely stated a fact. Do you dispute it?
I can read. I asked you a question for some clarification on the point you're making.
I'm neither confirming, nor disputing what you posted.
I stated a fact that more people in lower socio demographic classes voted Conservative in 2019 than voted Labour, by some margin. Though obviously in fact that was also true of all socio demographic groups.
The Left's claim to represent the working class is quite evidently incorrect, entitled and outdated.
Okay, so I'm going to ask a question, to see can I clarify your point.
Are you suggesting, that working class people voted for the Tories because they represent the interests of ordinary people.
Or are you suggesting that working class people vote for the Tories because they think that they represent the interests of ordinary people, regardless of if they do or not?
Or something else entirely?
You'd have to ask each individual voter what their motivation was.
Do you think they all voted Conservative because they are thick?"
Can you clarify your point? I'm interested in what you think.
I haven't commented on why I think they all voted Conservative. I'm trying to find out what you're saying. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It's amazing that folk think changing the marionette in parliament will lead to any meaningful change. They all dance to powerful groups and individuals and don't give a damn about any of us.
Yes powerful groups at different ends of the political spectrum
You have the tories and the rich, one powerful group, and labour and the rest of us, another powerful group.
Question is, which side do you ascribe to? Or do you prefer keeping the fence warm?
That kind of doesn't really explain how far more working class people voted Conservative at the last general election than voted Labour. Maybe you should step out of the 1970's.
One moment. Are you suggesting that the Conservative party being in power is better for working class people?
Well, assuming you can read, I merely stated a fact. Do you dispute it?
I can read. I asked you a question for some clarification on the point you're making.
I'm neither confirming, nor disputing what you posted.
I stated a fact that more people in lower socio demographic classes voted Conservative in 2019 than voted Labour, by some margin. Though obviously in fact that was also true of all socio demographic groups.
The Left's claim to represent the working class is quite evidently incorrect, entitled and outdated.
Okay, so I'm going to ask a question, to see can I clarify your point.
Are you suggesting, that working class people voted for the Tories because they represent the interests of ordinary people.
Or are you suggesting that working class people vote for the Tories because they think that they represent the interests of ordinary people, regardless of if they do or not?
Or something else entirely?
You'd have to ask each individual voter what their motivation was.
Do you think they all voted Conservative because they are thick?
Can you clarify your point? I'm interested in what you think.
I haven't commented on why I think they all voted Conservative. I'm trying to find out what you're saying."
I'm not saying anything beyond what I posted. A previous poster suggested that there is a binary divide in society between rich Conservatives and poor Labour voters. I merely pointed out that this was unlikely to be true, given that far more poor people voted Conservative in 2019 than voted Labour. |
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"It's amazing that folk think changing the marionette in parliament will lead to any meaningful change. They all dance to powerful groups and individuals and don't give a damn about any of us.
Yes powerful groups at different ends of the political spectrum
You have the tories and the rich, one powerful group, and labour and the rest of us, another powerful group.
Question is, which side do you ascribe to? Or do you prefer keeping the fence warm?
That kind of doesn't really explain how far more working class people voted Conservative at the last general election than voted Labour. Maybe you should step out of the 1970's.
One moment. Are you suggesting that the Conservative party being in power is better for working class people?
Well, assuming you can read, I merely stated a fact. Do you dispute it?
I can read. I asked you a question for some clarification on the point you're making.
I'm neither confirming, nor disputing what you posted.
I stated a fact that more people in lower socio demographic classes voted Conservative in 2019 than voted Labour, by some margin. Though obviously in fact that was also true of all socio demographic groups.
The Left's claim to represent the working class is quite evidently incorrect, entitled and outdated.
Okay, so I'm going to ask a question, to see can I clarify your point.
Are you suggesting, that working class people voted for the Tories because they represent the interests of ordinary people.
Or are you suggesting that working class people vote for the Tories because they think that they represent the interests of ordinary people, regardless of if they do or not?
Or something else entirely?
You'd have to ask each individual voter what their motivation was.
Do you think they all voted Conservative because they are thick?
Can you clarify your point? I'm interested in what you think.
I haven't commented on why I think they all voted Conservative. I'm trying to find out what you're saying.
I'm not saying anything beyond what I posted. A previous poster suggested that there is a binary divide in society between rich Conservatives and poor Labour voters. I merely pointed out that this was unlikely to be true, given that far more poor people voted Conservative in 2019 than voted Labour. "
My understanding was that they pointed out the divide based on whom the parties represent.
"You have the tories and the rich, one powerful group, and labour and the rest of us, another powerful group. "
Tories are representing the interests of the rich. And labour are representing the interests of the rest of us.
Maybe I'm wrong. But I don't think they were disputing that many working class people voted Conservative. |
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"It's amazing that folk think changing the marionette in parliament will lead to any meaningful change. They all dance to powerful groups and individuals and don't give a damn about any of us.
Yes powerful groups at different ends of the political spectrum
You have the tories and the rich, one powerful group, and labour and the rest of us, another powerful group.
Question is, which side do you ascribe to? Or do you prefer keeping the fence warm?
That kind of doesn't really explain how far more working class people voted Conservative at the last general election than voted Labour. Maybe you should step out of the 1970's.
One moment. Are you suggesting that the Conservative party being in power is better for working class people?
Well, assuming you can read, I merely stated a fact. Do you dispute it?
I can read. I asked you a question for some clarification on the point you're making.
I'm neither confirming, nor disputing what you posted.
I stated a fact that more people in lower socio demographic classes voted Conservative in 2019 than voted Labour, by some margin. Though obviously in fact that was also true of all socio demographic groups.
The Left's claim to represent the working class is quite evidently incorrect, entitled and outdated.
Okay, so I'm going to ask a question, to see can I clarify your point.
Are you suggesting, that working class people voted for the Tories because they represent the interests of ordinary people.
Or are you suggesting that working class people vote for the Tories because they think that they represent the interests of ordinary people, regardless of if they do or not?
Or something else entirely?
You'd have to ask each individual voter what their motivation was.
Do you think they all voted Conservative because they are thick?
Can you clarify your point? I'm interested in what you think.
I haven't commented on why I think they all voted Conservative. I'm trying to find out what you're saying.
I'm not saying anything beyond what I posted. A previous poster suggested that there is a binary divide in society between rich Conservatives and poor Labour voters. I merely pointed out that this was unlikely to be true, given that far more poor people voted Conservative in 2019 than voted Labour. "
Because they felt totally abandoned by the political party that ignored them for decades. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It's amazing that folk think changing the marionette in parliament will lead to any meaningful change. They all dance to powerful groups and individuals and don't give a damn about any of us.
Yes powerful groups at different ends of the political spectrum
You have the tories and the rich, one powerful group, and labour and the rest of us, another powerful group.
Question is, which side do you ascribe to? Or do you prefer keeping the fence warm?
That kind of doesn't really explain how far more working class people voted Conservative at the last general election than voted Labour. Maybe you should step out of the 1970's.
One moment. Are you suggesting that the Conservative party being in power is better for working class people?
Well, assuming you can read, I merely stated a fact. Do you dispute it?
I can read. I asked you a question for some clarification on the point you're making.
I'm neither confirming, nor disputing what you posted.
I stated a fact that more people in lower socio demographic classes voted Conservative in 2019 than voted Labour, by some margin. Though obviously in fact that was also true of all socio demographic groups.
The Left's claim to represent the working class is quite evidently incorrect, entitled and outdated.
Okay, so I'm going to ask a question, to see can I clarify your point.
Are you suggesting, that working class people voted for the Tories because they represent the interests of ordinary people.
Or are you suggesting that working class people vote for the Tories because they think that they represent the interests of ordinary people, regardless of if they do or not?
Or something else entirely?
You'd have to ask each individual voter what their motivation was.
Do you think they all voted Conservative because they are thick?
Can you clarify your point? I'm interested in what you think.
I haven't commented on why I think they all voted Conservative. I'm trying to find out what you're saying.
I'm not saying anything beyond what I posted. A previous poster suggested that there is a binary divide in society between rich Conservatives and poor Labour voters. I merely pointed out that this was unlikely to be true, given that far more poor people voted Conservative in 2019 than voted Labour.
My understanding was that they pointed out the divide based on whom the parties represent.
"You have the tories and the rich, one powerful group, and labour and the rest of us, another powerful group. "
Tories are representing the interests of the rich. And labour are representing the interests of the rest of us.
Maybe I'm wrong. But I don't think they were disputing that many working class people voted Conservative."
So you are saying that Labour thinks it represents the interests of the poor but the poor don't believe them so vote Conservative instead? |
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"It's amazing that folk think changing the marionette in parliament will lead to any meaningful change. They all dance to powerful groups and individuals and don't give a damn about any of us.
Yes powerful groups at different ends of the political spectrum
You have the tories and the rich, one powerful group, and labour and the rest of us, another powerful group.
Question is, which side do you ascribe to? Or do you prefer keeping the fence warm?
That kind of doesn't really explain how far more working class people voted Conservative at the last general election than voted Labour. Maybe you should step out of the 1970's.
One moment. Are you suggesting that the Conservative party being in power is better for working class people?
Well, assuming you can read, I merely stated a fact. Do you dispute it?
I can read. I asked you a question for some clarification on the point you're making.
I'm neither confirming, nor disputing what you posted.
I stated a fact that more people in lower socio demographic classes voted Conservative in 2019 than voted Labour, by some margin. Though obviously in fact that was also true of all socio demographic groups.
The Left's claim to represent the working class is quite evidently incorrect, entitled and outdated.
Okay, so I'm going to ask a question, to see can I clarify your point.
Are you suggesting, that working class people voted for the Tories because they represent the interests of ordinary people.
Or are you suggesting that working class people vote for the Tories because they think that they represent the interests of ordinary people, regardless of if they do or not?
Or something else entirely?
You'd have to ask each individual voter what their motivation was.
Do you think they all voted Conservative because they are thick?
Can you clarify your point? I'm interested in what you think.
I haven't commented on why I think they all voted Conservative. I'm trying to find out what you're saying.
I'm not saying anything beyond what I posted. A previous poster suggested that there is a binary divide in society between rich Conservatives and poor Labour voters. I merely pointed out that this was unlikely to be true, given that far more poor people voted Conservative in 2019 than voted Labour.
My understanding was that they pointed out the divide based on whom the parties represent.
"You have the tories and the rich, one powerful group, and labour and the rest of us, another powerful group. "
Tories are representing the interests of the rich. And labour are representing the interests of the rest of us.
Maybe I'm wrong. But I don't think they were disputing that many working class people voted Conservative.
So you are saying that Labour thinks it represents the interests of the poor but the poor don't believe them so vote Conservative instead?"
Nope. I have not commented on what Labour thinks, or the why anyone votes anyway. I have been trying to clarify your point. |
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By *AFKA HovisMan
over a year ago
Sindon Swingdon Swindon |
2017 and 2019 was largely driven by Brexit.
My view is many labour leavers saw the Tories as being better representative here, and so switched based on this. The EU felt important given the headlines.
I dont think many ppl voted on who best represented their needs and views as a whole. But answered who best alligned with their views on brexit. |
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