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National Grid - it's Creaking again

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 5 days ago

Longridge

Seems that Gas generation is almost at max and the damned wind's stopped blowing just as we're coming out of a cold spell.

Anyone else cashing in at 5pm not to charge their cars, cook or avoid the dishwasher, washer and dryer?

At £3kwh, I'll be £45 better off tomorrow as I'll be deloading demand by 15kwh-20kwh.

I've been charging the home batteries and the car from 5pm until 7pm the last few weeks to run them back down overnight so perceived consumption 'drop' is significant. I'll be using the batteries to live as normal as I've have charged them this morning ready, so actually be cutting back, just reduced the Import, not usage.

Ohh, the cost of lack of investment and having to buy your way out of a problem.

BBC News - People will be paid to use less electricity on Monday

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64367504

Up to a million households in England, Scotland and Wales will be paid to use less electricity on Monday evening as part of a scheme to avoid blackouts.

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By *otMe66Man 5 days ago

Terra Firma

I don't know what to make of this post.

It appears you have been purposefully using more energy during peak times to artificially inflate your usage to grab a £45 payment.

Boasting about it, seems very wrong especially when you will know many people are struggling with their bills and energy consumption.

I hope it all works out for you and you get what you deserve

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By *ools and the brainCouple 5 days ago

in an even deeper underground bunker

You can use the money OP to buy extra tyres.

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By *astandFeistyCouple 5 days ago

B

What the actual fuck have I just read?

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By *oolyCoolyCplCouple 5 days ago

Newcastle under Lyme

We looked into this but we were with Bulb who Octopus formally acquired on 22nd December 2022. Octopus are doing the discount for customers but only those who have been customers since 1st December 2021, and who have a smart metre.

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By *iketoshow74Man 5 days ago

NORTHAMPTON


"We looked into this but we were with Bulb who Octopus formally acquired on 22nd December 2022. Octopus are doing the discount for customers but only those who have been customers since 1st December 2021, and who have a smart metre."

Bit annoying as I am an Octopus customer with a smart metre that has not worked for 3 years

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 5 days ago

Longridge


"I don't know what to make of this post.

It appears you have been purposefully using more energy during peak times to artificially inflate your usage to grab a £45 payment.

Boasting about it, seems very wrong especially when you will know many people are struggling with their bills and energy consumption.

I hope it all works out for you and you get what you deserve "

Free Market Economics as they encourage. I buy in at times it is more beneficial and either withhold consumption or sell some back to the Grid to profit.

Is that any different to Stock markets, Hedge Funding - there are always Winners and Loosers. Some Energy tariffs activity promote buying electricity cheap, selling when buy back is dearer.

Reading other renewable forums, I ain't the only one cashing in at 5pm. "Purposely using Energy at peak times", no, using Energy as I wish when I wish as was clearly stated by government last year and recently when they said "carry on as normal". I don't tell you when or not to use electricity although better Grid awareness of the public, no one would need 'bribing' not to use it to prevent Blackouts.

Tyres are good for another two years, so think I'll go get one of those excellent Happy Ending Massages at NationalGrid's expense in Wigan for £40 tomorrow instead!!

I think I deserve it, stressful getting up at 6am to arrange battery chargers..

Shall I tell you about the guy who regulary charges his Renault Zoe at Tesco for free, then goes home to sell it back to the Grid using V2G at peak times for profit?

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By *I TwoCouple 5 days ago

Belfast


"I don't know what to make of this post.

It appears you have been purposefully using more energy during peak times to artificially inflate your usage to grab a £45 payment.

Boasting about it, seems very wrong especially when you will know many people are struggling with their bills and energy consumption.

I hope it all works out for you and you get what you deserve "

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By *otMe66Man 5 days ago

Terra Firma


"I don't know what to make of this post.

It appears you have been purposefully using more energy during peak times to artificially inflate your usage to grab a £45 payment.

Boasting about it, seems very wrong especially when you will know many people are struggling with their bills and energy consumption.

I hope it all works out for you and you get what you deserve

Free Market Economics as they encourage. I buy in at times it is more beneficial and either withhold consumption or sell some back to the Grid to profit.

Is that any different to Stock markets, Hedge Funding - there are always Winners and Loosers. Some Energy tariffs activity promote buying electricity cheap, selling when buy back is dearer.

Reading other renewable forums, I ain't the only one cashing in at 5pm. "Purposely using Energy at peak times", no, using Energy as I wish when I wish as was clearly stated by government last year and recently when they said "carry on as normal". I don't tell you when or not to use electricity although better Grid awareness of the public, no one would need 'bribing' not to use it to prevent Blackouts.

Tyres are good for another two years, so think I'll go get one of those excellent Happy Ending Massages at NationalGrid's expense in Wigan for £40 tomorrow instead!!

I think I deserve it, stressful getting up at 6am to arrange battery chargers..

Shall I tell you about the guy who regulary charges his Renault Zoe at Tesco for free, then goes home to sell it back to the Grid using V2G at peak times for profit?"

God knows what you would do for £2000...

Good luck with the happy ending, the irony actually made me laugh

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 5 days ago

Longridge

For £2k - you really don't want to know..

I find it strange that there is critism of using technology that wasn't cheap to an advantage and frowned upon.

"Carry on normally" was the instruction, exactly what I intend to do. Soak up 24hrs worth of Energy between 5pm-6pm then be paid to avoid it on risky days like today.

Seen as though last few weeks have been windy, thus saving government all that lucious Windfall they set aside along with Gas prices crashing.

They dodged a bullet, although we're not out the woods just yet. It seems that bribing consumers to save 3GWh of energy for an hour to save face, is good value for money.

3GWh = one tenth of Wind or Gas, 50% of our total Nuclear - will it be enough?

I'm doing my bit, going off Grid in 20mins for an hour and a half to take my load off. I'll recharge house and car batteries after 9pm ready to use tomorrow.

Solar is picking up as well, so may need to forget to switch patio heaters off as need battery capacity to keep import high at 5pm.

I love a Happy Ending..

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By *ove2pleaseseukMan 5 days ago

Hastings


"For £2k - you really don't want to know..

I find it strange that there is critism of using technology that wasn't cheap to an advantage and frowned upon.

"Carry on normally" was the instruction, exactly what I intend to do. Soak up 24hrs worth of Energy between 5pm-6pm then be paid to avoid it on risky days like today.

Seen as though last few weeks have been windy, thus saving government all that lucious Windfall they set aside along with Gas prices crashing.

They dodged a bullet, although we're not out the woods just yet. It seems that bribing consumers to save 3GWh of energy for an hour to save face, is good value for money.

3GWh = one tenth of Wind or Gas, 50% of our total Nuclear - will it be enough?

I'm doing my bit, going off Grid in 20mins for an hour and a half to take my load off. I'll recharge house and car batteries after 9pm ready to use tomorrow.

Solar is picking up as well, so may need to forget to switch patio heaters off as need battery capacity to keep import high at 5pm.

I love a Happy Ending.."

Can't do it as not on a smart meter.

How am I supposed to my pass the meter to get free electricity if I have a smart meter installed.

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 5 days ago

Longridge

You can't, they'll detect lack of Grid Impedance and disconnection while you do it. The GSM unit will dob you remotely.

https://youtu.be/G32NYQpvy8Q

You'll have an inspector round before the kettle boils.

STOP PRESS:

Re-run tomorrow for longer 16:30 until 18:00. £120 bonus for 2.5hrs in my reckoning.

Should I upgrade the Happy Ending or go back two more times. I knew it, Auntie Liz did care.

Let's just hope 3GWh cuts the mustard, else another £9million down the pan.

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 5 days ago

Longridge

The point of this post:

That the government and National Grid are happy to pay me for Happy Endings and a million others to hide their lack of investment and planning of alternative power generation to our now maxed out Gas plants - for the last 15 to 20yrs.

Media are more concerned about how much people will be paid than the failures that have led to this.

Yep, I'm going to make a few quid, I might even go take the car to the fast charger at 16:45 to help ensure it's not stood down.

Why? Because I can and no one has asked any of us to help muck in and work together to reduce demand unless for a bribe.

Feck 'em, if there are blackouts, which many believe is unlikely, at least I'll have 45kwh of fully charged juicy battery juice to use at my leisure and a propane generator with 8x 47kg bottles on stand-by.

Oh, nearly forgot, the 2x Gas heaters and 10x bottles of 15kg Butane. Not sure where I put the Double A's though.

Someone suggested I needed my Dick pulling. I'll need a new one if this carries on - hopefully get a good loyal customer discount.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan 5 days ago

Gilfach


"Free Market Economics as they encourage. I buy in at times it is more beneficial and either withhold consumption or sell some back to the Grid to profit.

Is that any different to Stock markets, Hedge Funding - there are always Winners and Loosers. Some Energy tariffs activity promote buying electricity cheap, selling when buy back is dearer."

I don't think anyone is complaining that you're doing it. But starting a thread just to boast about it could be seen as slightly vulgar.

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 4 days ago

Longridge

Some win, some lose but it proves the point: Bribing people to save their faces, I personally think is disgusting.

UK Energy is a vulgar shit-show right now and apart from being lucky with Wind so far this year, next year or the year after - lady luck WILL run out with some difficult questions to answer.

This Winter's far from over. Cold weather and low wind will leave us in direct exposure of lack of generation supply.

Until then, like anyone else in the Energy business taking what they can - I fully intend to turn it to my advantage, as is selling electricity to EV owners, skewing this pay to save scheme in my favour. The difference being that I understand how to turn a profit from Energy management. Knowledge I make a living sharing.

Dabbling in Butane has left over 40 bottles with decent dregs to burn off prior to getting refilled to pass on. 2x infamous Gas heaters on all day, most days for the last 5 weeks and enough for next Winter set aside - all free. Last week picked up 4 full bottles for a tenner each and another given to me. Having been accused of cashing in on fear, the truth is they are mostly being used to reduce Energy bills by heating a single room and not the whole house.

This has been the cheapest ever Winter for Energy as I've made more than spent.

Used equivalent of £85 in mains gas (mostly baths and showers) Sept 18th until Jan 16th and £220's worth of electricity and had £67 per month from Liz. Solar is starting to produce up to 7kwh per day and in 5 weeks will be up around 30kwh.

£72 billion was set aside to cover EPG, I wrote a post on it with heinous responses. Apart from those few weeks of £550 to £1650 per MWh, most the rest has been less than 5p/KWh. Yes, it will eventually filter through but people need price reductions now as its destroying them.

So, what are the plans for the unspent £Billions? Support more domestic renewables, support those with greatest need or as usual, squander it.

----- -----

A HEADS UP - for anyone listening, around June/July, there are syrong rumours of decent 2 and 3 year fixed deals coming available due to current low Gas prices.

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By *eonine123Man 4 days ago

barnsley

Why dont we use mill wheels to genarate electricity on all the rivers that regulary flood every year.a modern wheel can bi as small as a pushbike wheel atatched to a box the size of a garden shed on the river bank

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple 4 days ago

in Lancashire


"Why dont we use mill wheels to genarate electricity on all the rivers that regulary flood every year.a modern wheel can bi as small as a pushbike wheel atatched to a box the size of a garden shed on the river bank"

Some communities have done so..

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 4 days ago

Longridge

The hypocrisy of asking and paying 1 million households to cutback for cash at 4:30pm in order that the rest can continue with "business as usual". Instead of simply being honest and frank with the whole population and ask everyone to hold back between 4pm and 6pm - it's not difficult.

Just simply putting it out there to refrain from washers, dishwashers, Tumble Dryers and charging EVs on difficult days like today.

No, they prefer to pay some to sacrifice to benefit the rest, keeping their lights, washers and dishwashers and EV chargers on.

I've seen reports people turned off central heating and lights last night and they will today. That wasn't the plan, which was to avoid heavy loading of appliances and electric heaters.

Sat in darkness to save 6watts and a gas boiler at 80watts.

35 minutes and I'll be disconnecting from the Grid until 6pm.

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By *uddy laneMan 4 days ago

dudley


"The hypocrisy of asking and paying 1 million households to cutback for cash at 4:30pm in order that the rest can continue with "business as usual". Instead of simply being honest and frank with the whole population and ask everyone to hold back between 4pm and 6pm - it's not difficult.

Just simply putting it out there to refrain from washers, dishwashers, Tumble Dryers and charging EVs on difficult days like today.

No, they prefer to pay some to sacrifice to benefit the rest, keeping their lights, washers and dishwashers and EV chargers on.

I've seen reports people turned off central heating and lights last night and they will today. That wasn't the plan, which was to avoid heavy loading of appliances and electric heaters.

Sat in darkness to save 6watts and a gas boiler at 80watts.

35 minutes and I'll be disconnecting from the Grid until 6pm."

I have to agree with your first point also these customers who have signed up to this "help out the grid" may have signed up to having their supply turned off to "help out the grid".

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By *winga2Man 4 days ago

Craigavon


"The hypocrisy of asking and paying 1 million households to cutback for cash at 4:30pm in order that the rest can continue with "business as usual". Instead of simply being honest and frank with the whole population and ask everyone to hold back between 4pm and 6pm - it's not difficult.

Just simply putting it out there to refrain from washers, dishwashers, Tumble Dryers and charging EVs on difficult days like today.

No, they prefer to pay some to sacrifice to benefit the rest, keeping their lights, washers and dishwashers and EV chargers on.

I've seen reports people turned off central heating and lights last night and they will today. That wasn't the plan, which was to avoid heavy loading of appliances and electric heaters.

Sat in darkness to save 6watts and a gas boiler at 80watts.

35 minutes and I'll be disconnecting from the Grid until 6pm."

I don't think your able to comprehend quantities of scale.

Understandable with people that like to complain about anything and everything.

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By *ove2pleaseseukMan 4 days ago

Hastings


"The hypocrisy of asking and paying 1 million households to cutback for cash at 4:30pm in order that the rest can continue with "business as usual". Instead of simply being honest and frank with the whole population and ask everyone to hold back between 4pm and 6pm - it's not difficult.

Just simply putting it out there to refrain from washers, dishwashers, Tumble Dryers and charging EVs on difficult days like today.

No, they prefer to pay some to sacrifice to benefit the rest, keeping their lights, washers and dishwashers and EV chargers on.

I've seen reports people turned off central heating and lights last night and they will today. That wasn't the plan, which was to avoid heavy loading of appliances and electric heaters.

Sat in darkness to save 6watts and a gas boiler at 80watts.

35 minutes and I'll be disconnecting from the Grid until 6pm."

So do they disconnected you or do you just not pull from the grid or an you not supply to the grid and get a double payment.

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By *illt400Man 4 days ago

liverpool

Spend thousands of pounds on batteries and chargers to get £45 for a wank

You are kidding yourself

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 4 days ago

Longridge


"The hypocrisy of asking and paying 1 million households to cutback for cash at 4:30pm in order that the rest can continue with "business as usual". Instead of simply being honest and frank with the whole population and ask everyone to hold back between 4pm and 6pm - it's not difficult.

Just simply putting it out there to refrain from washers, dishwashers, Tumble Dryers and charging EVs on difficult days like today.

No, they prefer to pay some to sacrifice to benefit the rest, keeping their lights, washers and dishwashers and EV chargers on.

I've seen reports people turned off central heating and lights last night and they will today. That wasn't the plan, which was to avoid heavy loading of appliances and electric heaters.

Sat in darkness to save 6watts and a gas boiler at 80watts.

35 minutes and I'll be disconnecting from the Grid until 6pm.

So do they disconnected you or do you just not pull from the grid or an you not supply to the grid and get a double payment.

"

I refuse to Export, peanuts for valuable power I can use at home. Yes, it had a higher value this evening but not worth it over the year.

I manually disconnected for two reasons.

1) to test scenario of power loss and that the inverter could supply the house. It did amicably by powering the house, central heating, lights, TV as well as the washer and dishwasher at the same time.

Normally, as was the case yesterday, so long as the Inverter is in 'Self Use' mode and battery capacity is high enough, there would be no Import when consumption is below 5kwh on battery.

The Inverter has two 230v outputs, one Grid Tied and the other Back-Up. In day to day use, Grid Tied remains active which as long as batteries have power, continuously pushes Grid power back to stop Import.

Tonight was to switch the whole house from Grid with Inverter to Back-Up where Inverternis isolated from the Grid and powering the house on its own.

2) to ensure when switching back to Grid / Inverter, everything is restored back to normal.

Basically simulation of a 1.5hr complete powercut. So, no, you remain connected and can use power if needed but don't don't get paid.

Basically, they take your average tea-time usage and during off-load periods, they watch to see if you used less than the average - it is this what they pay for.

Example:

Say on any average tea time period, I use 4kwh due to cooking, washing, electric shower, tumble dryer. Tonight, by agreeing to opt-in, and reduce consumption during the period to just lights and the boiler and used 500w (0.5kwh).

They take 0.5kwh from the 4kwh leaving 3.5kwh (I didn't use) and pay £3 per kwh £10.50.

Some have been disappointed because they expected more but what they don't understand, is that they only got paid £2.50 or so because their average isn't high.

Hence, by forcing the batteries to charge, EV car charging and washer/dryer - I can easy maintain nearly maximum 22kwh draw for the period. Which, when they run the scheme, my 'perceived' consumption is massively reduced.

My nominal average was 15kwh to 18kwh, so when I switch everything off, drops to 500w, they pay me for the reduction of 14.5kwh which at £3/KWh is £43.50. Tonight will be higher as Grid Import was Zero as was off-grid.

The power used when not on a Session is not wasted as I simply rapid charge the batteries between 4pm and 6pm, then discharge them again overnight. But my tea-time draw is high which the meter 'sees'.

Is it really worth delaying tea for £2.40 in a normal household as a sacrifice? Not really, I wouldn't do it.

So, yesterday National Grid set aside £850,000 to pay £3/kwh - equivalent to £3000/mwh at a time Wholesale electricity was £125/gwh.

Good value for money?

Tonight, this was doubled to £1.6m to cover the extra half hour. So, over the last two evenings, they've dished out £2.5m for what? 500mwh of electricity, its a teeny amount in the grand-scale. A tenth of this counties Nuclear output and 50th of Gas/Wind generation.

TBH - it wouldn't have been noticed at Grid level and a frigging expensive folly.

Bigger and better results could have been achieved by simply explaining the problem of limited supply and asked the UK Public to support by shifting loads until tonight - FOR FREE.

If asked, I'd be more than happy to wait to switch appliances on as I'm sure many others would to help.

We did it during the War, but government refuse to admit there is an issue and therefore, instead of getting Public onside, they resort to bribery.

The media have paid more attention to the money making than the real reasons it was implemented- to prevent possible blackouts.

"Business as usual" with "no restrictions" they said. I know a selfish few would say "go screw yourselves", but many many more would have stood behind and supported it to avoid power failures and the greater good for all.

Partly why I've done this was to prove this scheme was a load of bollocks and made £120 in the process.

Write to your MPs and suggest it is cheaper and better to be honest and frank with us.

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By *queakyclean69erCouple 4 days ago

Torquay


"Seems that Gas generation is almost at max and the damned wind's stopped blowing just as we're coming out of a cold spell.

Anyone else cashing in at 5pm not to charge their cars, cook or avoid the dishwasher, washer and dryer?

At £3kwh, I'll be £45 better off tomorrow as I'll be deloading demand by 15kwh-20kwh.

I've been charging the home batteries and the car from 5pm until 7pm the last few weeks to run them back down overnight so perceived consumption 'drop' is significant. I'll be using the batteries to live as normal as I've have charged them this morning ready, so actually be cutting back, just reduced the Import, not usage.

Ohh, the cost of lack of investment and having to buy your way out of a problem.

BBC News - People will be paid to use less electricity on Monday

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64367504

Up to a million households in England, Scotland and Wales will be paid to use less electricity on Monday evening as part of a scheme to avoid blackouts."

£45 better off for one evening are you sure about that??

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 4 days ago

Longridge

[Removed by poster at 24/01/23 22:18:42]

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 4 days ago

Longridge


"Spend thousands of pounds on batteries and chargers to get £45 for a wank

You are kidding yourself"

Is your Energy bill £200 this YEAR, next year and year after year?

Mine just halved to £100 this year, over the last 48 hours. You kidding yourself?

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By *ove2pleaseseukMan 4 days ago

Hastings


"Spend thousands of pounds on batteries and chargers to get £45 for a wank

You are kidding yourself

Is your Energy bill £200 this YEAR, next year and year after year?

Mine just halved to £100 this year, over the last 48 hours. You kidding yourself?"

So if the grid is creeking what will happen when we all get forced to install air source heat pumps.

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 4 days ago

Longridge

You tell me?

I spoke to a guy over the last cold spell who has just paid £17k for one and was consuming 55kwh per day at 34p/kwh and his house was cold.

Either electricity has to be in copious supply and so cheap, its justifiable. But as Energy policy is a joke, personally, I wouldn't touch one with a barge pole.

The only Heat Pumps I'd entertain is what I currently use. Air Conditioners or Air to Air driven by Solar when available.

Unless Solar takes the bulk if the power they use annually, they are not worth it.

I will be buying a couple of spare boilers in 2028 as at 90% reduction in CO2 already Energy using Batteries, Air Conditioners, Hot Water the CO2 saving wipes the floor with Air to Water driven by Grid (Gas, Coal and Bio).

As this year, I still need a boiler for 5 to 6 weeks for cheaper, effective heating when below zero outside.

If more Solar was installed, millions of properties reduced by 80% is better than half a million still chuffing out Grid CO2. Solar is a bigger bang for the buck.

I will one day install a Heat Pump for Hot Water only, not heating to free up more Solar for car charging but bottom of the list. 3kw immersion heater can be replaced by 900watts via Heat Pump as long as Ambient temperature is higher.

We struggled today as it was tight supply. Is next Winter going to be better with more EVs sold and Heat Pumps installed and no plans for more generation?

Yeh, we have shit loads when the Wind blows, but does the wind always blow?

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 4 days ago

Longridge

Heat Pump Boiler Replacement Grants should only be available to those with Solar. At 34p/kwh electricity compared to 10/kwh Gas.

Just does not add up when an average house needs 30kwh-50kwh/ per day in Heat.

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By *illt400Man 4 days ago

liverpool

Using air con , heat pumps battery chargers and numerous gizmos all of them requiring energy to produce energy is a costly non efficient exercise. I wonder about the capital outlay. It’s cheaper to get energy from mains supplier.

There is nothing for nothing when it comes to producing usable energy

Maybe you will recover some of your expenditure when you weigh in at your local scrapyard.

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 3 days ago

Longridge

If that's what you want to believe.. I won't argue.

I'll just enjoy 25yrs of cheap energy with a known fixed cost, summer Air Conditioning, Spring Autumn Heating, Car charging and 10 months hot water.

Feel free to do as you please.

But when you buy 10x Inverters, sell 9x and make enough mark-up on each to keep one for free- how much did it actually cost?

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 3 days ago

Longridge

It's very rare I pay for something, sometimes I'll contribute a little and most of the time, I profit when I buy it.

7 years ago, I purchased 10x sets of Solar Thermal tubes on a pallet for £80 per set from Bankrupt Stock, they sold like hot cakes for £295 each, bearing in mind RRP was £1,499 per set.

In the end, I'd bought and sold over 180 sets and put £34k cash in a renewables pot. That pot has paid for my full system plus cash to buy quantities for discounts of other parts needed to sell n keep.

Example: I wanted a Dyson but couldn't justify £399, waited until Black Friday and bought 8x on offer for £249 with a £40 accessory kit, when prices went up, sold 7x for £349 - £50 cheaper than Currys with a kit. Mine cost -£451.

Air Conditioners- import 15 units, sell 13x and keep 3x for free.

Then the 15kwh batteries - bought 30x, sold 27 and kept 3x and £5k up in the process.

How much did my whole system actually cost?

Hmm, now let me see.

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By *ercuryMan 3 days ago

Grantham

So you purchased 15 A/C units, sold 13 and kept the other 3? Sounds like a good business model

There's a charity not far from you called DEPHER. They could do with some of your expertise.

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By *ools and the brainCouple 3 days ago

in an even deeper underground bunker


"It's very rare I pay for something, sometimes I'll contribute a little and most of the time, I profit when I buy it.

7 years ago, I purchased 10x sets of Solar Thermal tubes on a pallet for £80 per set from Bankrupt Stock, they sold like hot cakes for £295 each, bearing in mind RRP was £1,499 per set.

In the end, I'd bought and sold over 180 sets and put £34k cash in a renewables pot. That pot has paid for my full system plus cash to buy quantities for discounts of other parts needed to sell n keep.

Example: I wanted a Dyson but couldn't justify £399, waited until Black Friday and bought 8x on offer for £249 with a £40 accessory kit, when prices went up, sold 7x for £349 - £50 cheaper than Currys with a kit. Mine cost -£451.

Air Conditioners- import 15 units, sell 13x and keep 3x for free.

Then the 15kwh batteries - bought 30x, sold 27 and kept 3x and £5k up in the process.

How much did my whole system actually cost?

Hmm, now let me see.

"

I'm sure you let the taxman know of your ventures?

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By *irldnCouple 3 days ago

Brighton


"It's very rare I pay for something, sometimes I'll contribute a little and most of the time, I profit when I buy it.

7 years ago, I purchased 10x sets of Solar Thermal tubes on a pallet for £80 per set from Bankrupt Stock, they sold like hot cakes for £295 each, bearing in mind RRP was £1,499 per set.

In the end, I'd bought and sold over 180 sets and put £34k cash in a renewables pot. That pot has paid for my full system plus cash to buy quantities for discounts of other parts needed to sell n keep.

Example: I wanted a Dyson but couldn't justify £399, waited until Black Friday and bought 8x on offer for £249 with a £40 accessory kit, when prices went up, sold 7x for £349 - £50 cheaper than Currys with a kit. Mine cost -£451.

Air Conditioners- import 15 units, sell 13x and keep 3x for free.

Then the 15kwh batteries - bought 30x, sold 27 and kept 3x and £5k up in the process.

How much did my whole system actually cost?

Hmm, now let me see.

I'm sure you let the taxman know of your ventures?"

Was going to say same thing. Funboy you are operating like a business (not just selling your unwanted stuff). HMRC will want a cut of that.

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 3 days ago

Longridge

Whose to say he didn't?

Although it might have been put in an off-shore bank account with my Russian mates money.

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 3 days ago

Longridge

So when I bought a new £450 washing machine for £250 - by breaking the old one up and selling the pump, motor, solenoids, PCB and door assembly for £200.

A £750 boiler for new £350 - by breaking up and selling the working internal parts out the old one such as Diverter, Pump block, PCB, heat exchanger and furnace for £400.

£299 Dishwasher for £100 - Used 30% discount offer then took drum from washer, welded legs on it and sold as a garden fire pit for £100.

Scrap man hates as all he gets is carcasses from here.

Should I declare these or do these fall under 'allowed second earnings' which I believe is £1000.

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By *irldnCouple 3 days ago

Brighton


"So when I bought a new £450 washing machine for £250 - by breaking the old one up and selling the pump, motor, solenoids, PCB and door assembly for £200.

A £750 boiler for new £350 - by breaking up and selling the working internal parts out the old one such as Diverter, Pump block, PCB, heat exchanger and furnace for £400.

£299 Dishwasher for £100 - Used 30% discount offer then took drum from washer, welded legs on it and sold as a garden fire pit for £100.

Scrap man hates as all he gets is carcasses from here.

Should I declare these or do these fall under 'allowed second earnings' which I believe is £1000."

Your earlier post refers to 10 sets, 180 sets, 8 dysons. That will be deemed to be running a reseller business and subject to tax. Not sure re things in this post. It depends on the scale of the operation.

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By *illt400Man 3 days ago

liverpool

It makes me want to puke when I read postings

Bragging on a sex site about about how much they have spent and how much they think they have saved.cupid stunt springs to mind

Enjoy your £45 happy ending at your massage parlour perhaps if you have so much money you could slip her a couple of extra quid , she needs it more than you.

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By *winga2Man 3 days ago

Craigavon

Do some people just post to be deliberately offensive and nasty or is it just my imagination ?

The green arrow would suggest I'm not wrong ?

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By *ove2pleaseseukMan 3 days ago

Hastings

Air Conditioners- import 15 units, sell 13x and keep 3x for free.

If you imported to re sell this would mean you should be vat registered and vat added to sales.

But if you imported 15 and sols 13 and kept 3 I guess you also found 1 So I hope you informed customs that actually 16 where in the shipment??

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By *uddy laneMan 3 days ago

dudley


"Do some people just post to be deliberately offensive and nasty or is it just my imagination ?

The green arrow would suggest I'm not wrong ?"

Can you not see a windup merchant.

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By *uddy laneMan 3 days ago

dudley


"So when I bought a new £450 washing machine for £250 - by breaking the old one up and selling the pump, motor, solenoids, PCB and door assembly for £200.

A £750 boiler for new £350 - by breaking up and selling the working internal parts out the old one such as Diverter, Pump block, PCB, heat exchanger and furnace for £400.

£299 Dishwasher for £100 - Used 30% discount offer then took drum from washer, welded legs on it and sold as a garden fire pit for £100.

Scrap man hates as all he gets is carcasses from here.

Should I declare these or do these fall under 'allowed second earnings' which I believe is £1000.

Your earlier post refers to 10 sets, 180 sets, 8 dysons. That will be deemed to be running a reseller business and subject to tax. Not sure re things in this post. It depends on the scale of the operation."

I hope he throws in a guarantee with the stuff he sells as a supplier.

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 3 days ago

Longridge


"Air Conditioners- import 15 units, sell 13x and keep 3x for free.

If you imported to re sell this would mean you should be vat registered and vat added to sales.

But if you imported 15 and sols 13 and kept 3 I guess you also found 1 So I hope you informed customs that actually 16 where in the shipment??"

There is NO condition to be VAT registered as a private individual, just pay at entry and sell on.

The obvious customers that would be reluctant to buy is VAT registered companies who would not benefit from the import being reclaimed and a +VAT sale price.

Some people are very nieve.

I can buy from anywhere, pay the VAT and sell for profit up to the threshold.

The Air Conditioners were purchased while the UK was in the EU and VAT in Italy was cheaper and therefore, paid There, not here. Different story today, 5% plus 20%, plus expensive money transfers and extortionate shipping.

The Samsungs I have worked out at £390 delivered.

Believe what you want..

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 3 days ago

Longridge


"So you purchased 15 A/C units, sold 13 and kept the other 3? Sounds like a good business model

There's a charity not far from you called DEPHER. They could do with some of your expertise."

Was very straightforward. Air Conditioners are expensive here. Buy 15x at £390 each delivered, add £100 to the 12x sold on. At £495, still half price to exactly the the same models sold here - they snatched my hand off and sold in three weeks and covered the £1200 for the 3 taken out.

EU stopped 'warranty borders' and therefore covered by Samsung UK if there was any issue.

It's a model I've used for many years, especially around Black Friday. Dewalt tools is another - buy a quantity when cheap or on offer, sell for profit - keep one for free. I have some awesome professional grade kit for almost or 'Free' and sure beats crappy DIY brands. £100 tool on offer for £79, buy 10, sell 9 for £90 - mine cost nothing by making a £11 on each.

Ever see eBay 20% offers? Read the small print, you can use vouchers 2 to 6 times depending.

Life is cheaper by using imagination, although many won't understand.

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 3 days ago

Longridge


"So when I bought a new £450 washing machine for £250 - by breaking the old one up and selling the pump, motor, solenoids, PCB and door assembly for £200.

A £750 boiler for new £350 - by breaking up and selling the working internal parts out the old one such as Diverter, Pump block, PCB, heat exchanger and furnace for £400.

£299 Dishwasher for £100 - Used 30% discount offer then took drum from washer, welded legs on it and sold as a garden fire pit for £100.

Scrap man hates as all he gets is carcasses from here.

Should I declare these or do these fall under 'allowed second earnings' which I believe is £1000.

Your earlier post refers to 10 sets, 180 sets, 8 dysons. That will be deemed to be running a reseller business and subject to tax. Not sure re things in this post. It depends on the scale of the operation."

Self Assessment - Heard of it?

It's when you step out of the 9am to 5pm Humdrum and realise there is another world out there - entrepreneurism.

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By *otMe66Man 3 days ago

Terra Firma


"So when I bought a new £450 washing machine for £250 - by breaking the old one up and selling the pump, motor, solenoids, PCB and door assembly for £200.

A £750 boiler for new £350 - by breaking up and selling the working internal parts out the old one such as Diverter, Pump block, PCB, heat exchanger and furnace for £400.

£299 Dishwasher for £100 - Used 30% discount offer then took drum from washer, welded legs on it and sold as a garden fire pit for £100.

Scrap man hates as all he gets is carcasses from here.

Should I declare these or do these fall under 'allowed second earnings' which I believe is £1000.

Your earlier post refers to 10 sets, 180 sets, 8 dysons. That will be deemed to be running a reseller business and subject to tax. Not sure re things in this post. It depends on the scale of the operation.

Self Assessment - Heard of it?

It's when you step out of the 9am to 5pm Humdrum and realise there is another world out there - entrepreneurism."

And it is for that reason, you are fired! Now get out of the forum

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By *irldnCouple 3 days ago

Brighton


"So when I bought a new £450 washing machine for £250 - by breaking the old one up and selling the pump, motor, solenoids, PCB and door assembly for £200.

A £750 boiler for new £350 - by breaking up and selling the working internal parts out the old one such as Diverter, Pump block, PCB, heat exchanger and furnace for £400.

£299 Dishwasher for £100 - Used 30% discount offer then took drum from washer, welded legs on it and sold as a garden fire pit for £100.

Scrap man hates as all he gets is carcasses from here.

Should I declare these or do these fall under 'allowed second earnings' which I believe is £1000.

Your earlier post refers to 10 sets, 180 sets, 8 dysons. That will be deemed to be running a reseller business and subject to tax. Not sure re things in this post. It depends on the scale of the operation.

Self Assessment - Heard of it?

It's when you step out of the 9am to 5pm Humdrum and realise there is another world out there - entrepreneurism."

So you ARE declaring income for tax purposes. That was the point being raised.

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By *uddy laneMan 3 days ago

dudley

Mr slut hates dodgy tax dodgers he will hit the roof if there is one in the forums.

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By *ove2pleaseseukMan 3 days ago

Hastings


"Air Conditioners- import 15 units, sell 13x and keep 3x for free.

If you imported to re sell this would mean you should be vat registered and vat added to sales.

But if you imported 15 and sols 13 and kept 3 I guess you also found 1 So I hope you informed customs that actually 16 where in the shipment??

There is NO condition to be VAT registered as a private individual, just pay at entry and sell on.

The obvious customers that would be reluctant to buy is VAT registered companies who would not benefit from the import being reclaimed and a +VAT sale price.

Some people are very nieve.

I can buy from anywhere, pay the VAT and sell for profit up to the threshold.

The Air Conditioners were purchased while the UK was in the EU and VAT in Italy was cheaper and therefore, paid There, not here. Different story today, 5% plus 20%, plus expensive money transfers and extortionate shipping.

The Samsungs I have worked out at £390 delivered.

Believe what you want.."

No if you are turning over more then £85K you would need to be VAT registered and do money laundering cheques as well.

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By *ove2pleaseseukMan 3 days ago

Hastings


"So when I bought a new £450 washing machine for £250 - by breaking the old one up and selling the pump, motor, solenoids, PCB and door assembly for £200.

A £750 boiler for new £350 - by breaking up and selling the working internal parts out the old one such as Diverter, Pump block, PCB, heat exchanger and furnace for £400.

£299 Dishwasher for £100 - Used 30% discount offer then took drum from washer, welded legs on it and sold as a garden fire pit for £100.

Scrap man hates as all he gets is carcasses from here.

Should I declare these or do these fall under 'allowed second earnings' which I believe is £1000.

Your earlier post refers to 10 sets, 180 sets, 8 dysons. That will be deemed to be running a reseller business and subject to tax. Not sure re things in this post. It depends on the scale of the operation.

Self Assessment - Heard of it?

It's when you step out of the 9am to 5pm Humdrum and realise there is another world out there - entrepreneurism."

Ever herd of capital gains tax if you gained 40%

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By *ercuryMan 3 days ago

Grantham

You can be:-

A limited Company, where you will pay Capital Gains Tax.

A Sole Trader, where you have declare ALL income on your Self Assessment Form

A private individual paying PAYE, where you have to declare any second income.

Or a tax dodger.

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By *ove2pleaseseukMan 3 days ago

Hastings


"You can be:-

A limited Company, where you will pay Capital Gains Tax.

A Sole Trader, where you have declare ALL income on your Self Assessment Form

A private individual paying PAYE, where you have to declare any second income.

Or a tax dodger.

"

Most pick Tax dodger my self included where I can.

I wander if you are getting paid not to use electricity on a smart meter that will be classed as income. Letter to MP I think?

Fun boy recond £100 a day so at PAYE basic rate 20% and its not like its un traced

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 2 days ago

Longridge


"So when I bought a new £450 washing machine for £250 - by breaking the old one up and selling the pump, motor, solenoids, PCB and door assembly for £200.

A £750 boiler for new £350 - by breaking up and selling the working internal parts out the old one such as Diverter, Pump block, PCB, heat exchanger and furnace for £400.

£299 Dishwasher for £100 - Used 30% discount offer then took drum from washer, welded legs on it and sold as a garden fire pit for £100.

Scrap man hates as all he gets is carcasses from here.

Should I declare these or do these fall under 'allowed second earnings' which I believe is £1000.

Your earlier post refers to 10 sets, 180 sets, 8 dysons. That will be deemed to be running a reseller business and subject to tax. Not sure re things in this post. It depends on the scale of the operation.

Self Assessment - Heard of it?

It's when you step out of the 9am to 5pm Humdrum and realise there is another world out there - entrepreneurism.

Ever herd of capital gains tax if you gained 40% "

HUH??

I ain't even going to waste my time responding to that one..

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 2 days ago

Longridge

Anyway - I'm £40 down tonight and very HAPPY.

Pay more? Why would I pay more than the asking price?

Do you hire a plumber/ builder or electrician and slip him a little extra?

Do people go to Tesco and pay more than the price on the screen?

I doubt it, so why would I pay more?

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 2 days ago

Longridge


"So when I bought a new £450 washing machine for £250 - by breaking the old one up and selling the pump, motor, solenoids, PCB and door assembly for £200.

A £750 boiler for new £350 - by breaking up and selling the working internal parts out the old one such as Diverter, Pump block, PCB, heat exchanger and furnace for £400.

£299 Dishwasher for £100 - Used 30% discount offer then took drum from washer, welded legs on it and sold as a garden fire pit for £100.

Scrap man hates as all he gets is carcasses from here.

Should I declare these or do these fall under 'allowed second earnings' which I believe is £1000.

Your earlier post refers to 10 sets, 180 sets, 8 dysons. That will be deemed to be running a reseller business and subject to tax. Not sure re things in this post. It depends on the scale of the operation.

Self Assessment - Heard of it?

It's when you step out of the 9am to 5pm Humdrum and realise there is another world out there - entrepreneurism.

So you ARE declaring income for tax purposes. That was the point being raised."

Maybe, Maybe not - is it actually anyones business here?

I'm sure there are plenty of cash only 'trades' on here that are not playing by the rules - do they get the same accus, sorry interrogations?

Like Rishi and government have claimed many times this week, what happens between the tax man and an individual is their private business.

Holy shit, FunBoys stuck £100 in an offshore bank account- lock him up. Ken Dodd didn't live far from here, what were those feather dusters called?

I should have asked the pretty lady pulling my dick earlier tonight if she's declaring her income, I'll ask her next week.

Tickling Sticks - that was it..

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By *irldnCouple 2 days ago

Brighton


"So when I bought a new £450 washing machine for £250 - by breaking the old one up and selling the pump, motor, solenoids, PCB and door assembly for £200.

A £750 boiler for new £350 - by breaking up and selling the working internal parts out the old one such as Diverter, Pump block, PCB, heat exchanger and furnace for £400.

£299 Dishwasher for £100 - Used 30% discount offer then took drum from washer, welded legs on it and sold as a garden fire pit for £100.

Scrap man hates as all he gets is carcasses from here.

Should I declare these or do these fall under 'allowed second earnings' which I believe is £1000.

Your earlier post refers to 10 sets, 180 sets, 8 dysons. That will be deemed to be running a reseller business and subject to tax. Not sure re things in this post. It depends on the scale of the operation.

Self Assessment - Heard of it?

It's when you step out of the 9am to 5pm Humdrum and realise there is another world out there - entrepreneurism.

So you ARE declaring income for tax purposes. That was the point being raised.

Maybe, Maybe not - is it actually anyones business here?

I'm sure there are plenty of cash only 'trades' on here that are not playing by the rules - do they get the same accus, sorry interrogations?

Like Rishi and government have claimed many times this week, what happens between the tax man and an individual is their private business.

Holy shit, FunBoys stuck £100 in an offshore bank account- lock him up. Ken Dodd didn't live far from here, what were those feather dusters called?

I should have asked the pretty lady pulling my dick earlier tonight if she's declaring her income, I'll ask her next week.

Tickling Sticks - that was it.."

Difference is you are continually posting about the money you are making rather than keeping it private. I understand the point of the posts about how you are saving on energy costs, they are informative, but the rest are just focused around you generating income. So it seemed fair to point out the tax implications.

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By *I TwoCouple 2 days ago

Belfast


"So when I bought a new £450 washing machine for £250 - by breaking the old one up and selling the pump, motor, solenoids, PCB and door assembly for £200.

A £750 boiler for new £350 - by breaking up and selling the working internal parts out the old one such as Diverter, Pump block, PCB, heat exchanger and furnace for £400.

£299 Dishwasher for £100 - Used 30% discount offer then took drum from washer, welded legs on it and sold as a garden fire pit for £100.

Scrap man hates as all he gets is carcasses from here.

Should I declare these or do these fall under 'allowed second earnings' which I believe is £1000.

Your earlier post refers to 10 sets, 180 sets, 8 dysons. That will be deemed to be running a reseller business and subject to tax. Not sure re things in this post. It depends on the scale of the operation.

Self Assessment - Heard of it?

It's when you step out of the 9am to 5pm Humdrum and realise there is another world out there - entrepreneurism.

So you ARE declaring income for tax purposes. That was the point being raised.

Maybe, Maybe not - is it actually anyones business here?

I'm sure there are plenty of cash only 'trades' on here that are not playing by the rules - do they get the same accus, sorry interrogations?

Like Rishi and government have claimed many times this week, what happens between the tax man and an individual is their private business.

Holy shit, FunBoys stuck £100 in an offshore bank account- lock him up. Ken Dodd didn't live far from here, what were those feather dusters called?

I should have asked the pretty lady pulling my dick earlier tonight if she's declaring her income, I'll ask her next week.

Tickling Sticks - that was it..

Difference is you are continually posting about the money you are making rather than keeping it private. I understand the point of the posts about how you are saving on energy costs, they are informative, but the rest are just focused around you generating income. So it seemed fair to point out the tax implications."

Is it true it's the people with small dicks claim to be super studs ?

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 2 days ago

Longridge

This post was about the ridiculous way people are being asked to change their lifestyle for money, to solve a problem causes wholly by complete lack of government foresight and planning.

The money side was to show and make a point of how easy it is to abuse such a stupid scheme and response to uninformed comments about scrap value of seemingly 'worthless' kit.

The fastest growing industry again in this country is renewables, so comments claimed by those that don't even have it, again derogatory, claiming it isn't worth it.

I know no-one who has plunged for Solar, properly specified, that claim it isn't worth it or a waste of money. I see my almost peanuts Energy bills while others struggle and any Solar installation giving 50% plus against annual cost is viable. Yes, there is upfront costs although I funded it differently, but a standard system currently is 3 to 5yr payback at today's and expected future prices.

Beyond that, panels will last 25-35yrs, batteries 25yrs and Inverter has a 10yr warranty and likely to need a claim in 5yrs. To me, that's better than pension, ISA or savings payback in that every KWh generated from the roof is one not bought in from the Grid.

Seems a few think I talk crap, but reality is, I know what I know and no reason to bullshit. This month 25% of electricity and equivalent of 50% of Gas has been generated here. As the sun gets higher over the horizon and days get longer, In 4 to 5 weeks, it will be almost zero import.

Getting back to this scheme and the grossly underlying issue of lack of education. £2.5million could have instead been given to those in need such as Energy Support or food banks and simply asking us to load shift out of an issue. The only way through the next 10 years, especially as demand grows is better load management and installation of more on-site self generation.

People laughed and still do at suggestions of blackouts, but a number of times supply has been 'tight', what happens when it's 'super tight' or frankly 'not enough'. Yet, more EVs are being sold, more heat pumps are being installed and more electrification of heating is taking place.

Don't think next year will be better, it won't and won't be until further generation is put into the system - and I'm talking about both supply and more importantly, the price of electricity.

Take the controversial Heaters from a couple of months ago, B&Q were selling them for £138, I have a 10% B&Q discount card. So bought 10 at £124.20, sold on 9 matching B&Q's price and mine worked out? Free.

I did this twice, hence aquired two Heaters that should have cost £138 each - for free. Turned out, I ended up buying many more cheaper and not from B&Q, which have all been shifted weeks ago. The original project was to self fund two.

Piss was taken at cashing in on fear and panic, however, rather than use during the non arrived blackouts. They have worked out brilliant at heating single rooms from gas acquired from burning off the 'sloshy bits' of nearly empty bottles - so although I usually switch to boiler over darkest part of winter - I've burnt effectively free Butane gas instead.

But as usual, instead of people listening, they prefer to beat on me as a wind up merchant or bullshitter.

I posted many articles late last year on energy saving, they can be found following that infamous Green Arrow, advice given free that could have saved many, £100's.

The Crux, is it necessary to bribe a few to not use Energy or Education of the population to work together to deal with a problem?

If cash is being offered and I can take advantage, I will. I didn't abuse COVID Furlough or Small business support. Proudly - I took not one penny.

Not like others did!

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 2 days ago

Longridge

[Removed by poster at 26/01/23 09:19:42]

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By *irldnCouple 2 days ago

Brighton


"So when I bought a new £450 washing machine for £250 - by breaking the old one up and selling the pump, motor, solenoids, PCB and door assembly for £200.

A £750 boiler for new £350 - by breaking up and selling the working internal parts out the old one such as Diverter, Pump block, PCB, heat exchanger and furnace for £400.

£299 Dishwasher for £100 - Used 30% discount offer then took drum from washer, welded legs on it and sold as a garden fire pit for £100.

Scrap man hates as all he gets is carcasses from here.

Should I declare these or do these fall under 'allowed second earnings' which I believe is £1000.

Your earlier post refers to 10 sets, 180 sets, 8 dysons. That will be deemed to be running a reseller business and subject to tax. Not sure re things in this post. It depends on the scale of the operation.

Self Assessment - Heard of it?

It's when you step out of the 9am to 5pm Humdrum and realise there is another world out there - entrepreneurism.

So you ARE declaring income for tax purposes. That was the point being raised.

Maybe, Maybe not - is it actually anyones business here?

I'm sure there are plenty of cash only 'trades' on here that are not playing by the rules - do they get the same accus, sorry interrogations?

Like Rishi and government have claimed many times this week, what happens between the tax man and an individual is their private business.

Holy shit, FunBoys stuck £100 in an offshore bank account- lock him up. Ken Dodd didn't live far from here, what were those feather dusters called?

I should have asked the pretty lady pulling my dick earlier tonight if she's declaring her income, I'll ask her next week.

Tickling Sticks - that was it..

Difference is you are continually posting about the money you are making rather than keeping it private. I understand the point of the posts about how you are saving on energy costs, they are informative, but the rest are just focused around you generating income. So it seemed fair to point out the tax implications.

Is it true it's the people with small dicks claim to be super studs ?

"

No idea but I always thought I was hung like a stallion as I was always “successful with the ladies” and didn’t need to boast (for the record I am hung more like a shetland pony but way over average apparently )

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 2 days ago

Longridge

See above - the point exactly!!

Childish and silly comments..

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By *irldnCouple 2 days ago

Brighton


"See above - the point exactly!!

Childish and silly comments.."

Wasn’t aimed at you, just bringing some much needed levity

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 2 days ago

Longridge

Just seems for an 'adult' site, something is lacking..

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By *rFunBoy OP   Man 2 days ago

Longridge

Although..

I did read somewhere that those that try to belittle others, do so to make up for what they are lacking.

Just can't quite remember what it was, though.

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By *winga2Man 2 days ago

Craigavon


"

Just can't quite remember what it was, though."

Don't be so coy, you've mastered the art of belittlement to a T

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By *illt400Man 2 days ago

liverpool

You got that right. For an adult sex site something very lacking indeed.

Despite numerous comments trying to steer you clear you continued to post message after message trying to justify your business dealings.

You did not have to ! Business is business.

Good luck to you

You dug a hole jumped in and got busy back filling it. Retire gracefully before you totally bury yourself.

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