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U.K. Car Manufacturing
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
The number of cars coming off the production lines fell in 2022 to levels last seen in 1956. The highest number of cars ever produced in the U.K. was in 2016 and the numbers in 2022 were down 55% on what they were in 2016.
Blue passports though. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The number of cars coming off the production lines fell in 2022 to levels last seen in 1956. The highest number of cars ever produced in the U.K. was in 2016 and the numbers in 2022 were down 55% on what they were in 2016.
Blue passports though."
Sorry, I missed this and did a similar post  |
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"The number of cars coming off the production lines fell in 2022 to levels last seen in 1956. The highest number of cars ever produced in the U.K. was in 2016 and the numbers in 2022 were down 55% on what they were in 2016.
Blue passports though."
Ah, the benefits of Brexit! I see the positive side of this.
Because far more German and French cars are being made and sold, now no-one wants British ones, those foreigners who came here to work in the car industry, have stayed in Europe. Reducing immigration!! Result!! Who said Brexit was a bad thing?
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Other benefits.
Less cars = less pollution, therefore cleaner air, therefore healthier people.
Also, less cars = less wear and tear on roads, so less costly maintenance needed.
I suspect within a generation, there will be less travel as a whole. WFH during lockdown showed that most office jobs can be done remotely. Most in-person meetings are unnecessary.
I do believe we will go full circle to the days when you were born, lived and died in your own village/town/city and rarely had need to venture out. Sure, folks can still do their yearly break overseas if they wish, but prices have gone through the roof for a lot of overseas travel and I suspect the travel industry as a whole is going to see more attrition with family budgets being cut back. |
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"Other benefits.
Less cars = less pollution, therefore cleaner air, therefore healthier people.
Also, less cars = less wear and tear on roads, so less costly maintenance needed.
I suspect within a generation, there will be less travel as a whole. WFH during lockdown showed that most office jobs can be done remotely. Most in-person meetings are unnecessary.
I do believe we will go full circle to the days when you were born, lived and died in your own village/town/city and rarely had need to venture out. Sure, folks can still do their yearly break overseas if they wish, but prices have gone through the roof for a lot of overseas travel and I suspect the travel industry as a whole is going to see more attrition with family budgets being cut back."
There was still 532000 vehicles registered in 2022.
At the end of June 2022, there were 40.7 million licensed vehicles in the UK, an increase of 0.6% compared to the end of June 2021
People are still buying cars and using them. Just not buying as many new British cars.
As for regards the pollution the biggest UK car manufacturer JLR uses alot of recycled materials and it’s one of the most environmentally friendly new car makers. People are buying “cheaper” cars made in foreign country’s and those manufacturing processes have a much larger carbon foot print. |
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"The number of cars coming off the production lines fell in 2022 to levels last seen in 1956. The highest number of cars ever produced in the U.K. was in 2016 and the numbers in 2022 were down 55% on what they were in 2016.
Blue passports though."
This is nothing to do with Brexit. Hubby works for a car component supplier and their customers (actual car manufacturers) aren't able to produce as many cars due to the issues in chip supply globally.
Things are picking up now. In the last two years though some car manufacturers focussed on only making specific models due to such low component supply. |
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By *9alMan
over a year ago
Bridgend |
"The number of cars coming off the production lines fell in 2022 to levels last seen in 1956. The highest number of cars ever produced in the U.K. was in 2016 and the numbers in 2022 were down 55% on what they were in 2016.
Blue passports though.
This is nothing to do with Brexit. Hubby works for a car component supplier and their customers (actual car manufacturers) aren't able to produce as many cars due to the issues in chip supply globally.
Things are picking up now. In the last two years though some car manufacturers focussed on only making specific models due to such low component supply."
perhaps the car makers should chuck out all the silly unreliable computer stuff & go back to building good cars like they did in the 50s? I have an Austin A35 even the heater is an optional extra |
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"perhaps the car makers should chuck out all the silly unreliable computer stuff & go back to building good cars like they did in the 50s?"
They can't. There's no way an ICE can pass modern environmental regulations without a computer constantly adjusting all the settings. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The number of cars coming off the production lines fell in 2022 to levels last seen in 1956. The highest number of cars ever produced in the U.K. was in 2016 and the numbers in 2022 were down 55% on what they were in 2016.
Blue passports though.
This is nothing to do with Brexit. Hubby works for a car component supplier and their customers (actual car manufacturers) aren't able to produce as many cars due to the issues in chip supply globally.
Things are picking up now. In the last two years though some car manufacturers focussed on only making specific models due to such low component supply."
Do you think Brexit has ‘helped’ the car industry? |
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"The number of cars coming off the production lines fell in 2022 to levels last seen in 1956. The highest number of cars ever produced in the U.K. was in 2016 and the numbers in 2022 were down 55% on what they were in 2016.
Blue passports though.
This is nothing to do with Brexit. Hubby works for a car component supplier and their customers (actual car manufacturers) aren't able to produce as many cars due to the issues in chip supply globally.
Things are picking up now. In the last two years though some car manufacturers focussed on only making specific models due to such low component supply.
Do you think Brexit has ‘helped’ the car industry? "
I wonder why Honda closed down their Swindon factory after 2016?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The number of cars coming off the production lines fell in 2022 to levels last seen in 1956. The highest number of cars ever produced in the U.K. was in 2016 and the numbers in 2022 were down 55% on what they were in 2016.
Blue passports though.
This is nothing to do with Brexit. Hubby works for a car component supplier and their customers (actual car manufacturers) aren't able to produce as many cars due to the issues in chip supply globally.
Things are picking up now. In the last two years though some car manufacturers focussed on only making specific models due to such low component supply.
Do you think Brexit has ‘helped’ the car industry?
I wonder why Honda closed down their Swindon factory after 2016?
"
Not sure,  |
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perhaps the car makers should chuck out all the silly unreliable computer stuff & go back to building good cars like they did in the 50s? I have an Austin A35 even the heater is an optional extra "
I think you need to re evaluate there. I have quite a collection of cars ranging from 1940-2022.
I can assure you that “silly unreliable computer stuff” is needed and it’s made cars far more reliable that ever before.
One of my vehicles I use for work went for its first MOT in 2021 and it had covered 193,000 miles in its first 3 years. All it’s had is regular servicing, brakes and tyres.
I love my classic and vintage cars. One of my 1950s ones has done 80,000 miles and it’s had the engine rebuilt, gearbox rebuilt and paperwork for endless other repairs.
The British car industry rapidly declined in the 80s and 90s because of a attitude like yours. “Silly unreliable computer stuff” wasn’t required. Foreign manufactures especially the Japanese were pioneers of this and the British public loved it and bought record numbers of these modern cars with serious advances in technology.
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This is the reason. Let’s be totally honest it’s not really got much to do with chips or Brexit, it’s to do with the lack of manufacturers in the Uk. I seen somebody writing about the 1950’s we had more brands then. Apart from Nissan I don’t know if any affordable car being made in the Uk. Everybody else is luxury well they are meant to be. Simple reason it just too expensive to build them here. |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"This is the reason. Let’s be totally honest it’s not really got much to do with chips or Brexit, it’s to do with the lack of manufacturers in the Uk. I seen somebody writing about the 1950’s we had more brands then. Apart from Nissan I don’t know if any affordable car being made in the Uk. Everybody else is luxury well they are meant to be. Simple reason it just too expensive to build them here. "
Spot on. That's why the big car producers are moving to Mexico, Slovakia and Thailand. Countries where labour costs are a third. |
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"This is the reason. Let’s be totally honest it’s not really got much to do with chips or Brexit, it’s to do with the lack of manufacturers in the Uk. I seen somebody writing about the 1950’s we had more brands then. Apart from Nissan I don’t know if any affordable car being made in the Uk. Everybody else is luxury well they are meant to be. Simple reason it just too expensive to build them here.
Spot on. That's why the big car producers are moving to Mexico, Slovakia and Thailand. Countries where labour costs are a third."
I agree! JLR have built the new defender in Nitra, Slovakia. I was told they wanted to build it here in the UK but the cost was a considerable amount more. So much more that they invested £1bn Slovakia and it worked out cheaper in the long term than building cars in the UK.
I really do fear for the UK car industry in the future and a lot of other industries within UK manufacturing  |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"The number of cars coming off the production lines fell in 2022 to levels last seen in 1956. The highest number of cars ever produced in the U.K. was in 2016 and the numbers in 2022 were down 55% on what they were in 2016.
Blue passports though.
Ah, the benefits of Brexit! I see the positive side of this.
Because far more German and French cars are being made and sold, now no-one wants British ones, those foreigners who came here to work in the car industry, have stayed in Europe. Reducing immigration!! Result!! Who said Brexit was a bad thing?
"
Who said brexit was a bad thing…..
1) you do know that those “foreigners” coming here to work in the uk car industry would have been paying taxes here…
2) the uk car components industry might want have a word with you and explain how “tariffs” on parts have now put them at a competitive disadvantage… that plus excessive paperwork.. |
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
"This is the reason. Let’s be totally honest it’s not really got much to do with chips or Brexit, it’s to do with the lack of manufacturers in the Uk. I seen somebody writing about the 1950’s we had more brands then. Apart from Nissan I don’t know if any affordable car being made in the Uk. Everybody else is luxury well they are meant to be. Simple reason it just too expensive to build them here.
Spot on. That's why the big car producers are moving to Mexico, Slovakia and Thailand. Countries where labour costs are a third."
Should the UK government offer more in the way of subsidies to make cars here? I ask as a while ago when places like Nissan were committing to the Sunderland plant and moving battery plant to the UK, people said it's only because of government subsidies as though that's a bad thing. Now I read that America has introduced financial incentives for their market to temp manufacturers to buy American made cars. Ford is closing several places on the continent and moving them back to America. The EU apparently are not happy and may allow a form of state aid to halt the exodus. So should the UK go the same route with state aid? |
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"This is the reason. Let’s be totally honest it’s not really got much to do with chips or Brexit, it’s to do with the lack of manufacturers in the Uk. I seen somebody writing about the 1950’s we had more brands then. Apart from Nissan I don’t know if any affordable car being made in the Uk. Everybody else is luxury well they are meant to be. Simple reason it just too expensive to build them here.
Spot on. That's why the big car producers are moving to Mexico, Slovakia and Thailand. Countries where labour costs are a third.
Should the UK government offer more in the way of subsidies to make cars here? I ask as a while ago when places like Nissan were committing to the Sunderland plant and moving battery plant to the UK, people said it's only because of government subsidies as though that's a bad thing. Now I read that America has introduced financial incentives for their market to temp manufacturers to buy American made cars. Ford is closing several places on the continent and moving them back to America. The EU apparently are not happy and may allow a form of state aid to halt the exodus. So should the UK go the same route with state aid?"
People will never be happy. There was uproar when Nissan were given assurances of a grant. There's uproar when we don't give grants and companies leave.
Welcome to Modern Day Britain. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
" Now I read that America has introduced financial incentives for their market to temp manufacturers to buy American made cars. Ford is closing several places on the continent and moving them back to America. The EU apparently are not happy and may allow a form of state aid to halt the exodus. So should the UK go the same route with state aid?"
I was just about to talk about this… under the new NAFTA rules basically for a car to be classed as “American built” and qualify for all sorts of tax breaks and credits it must now have 80% of all components “American made”
It’s not really state aid as such… but cars already have a 25% tariff on them under WTO rules…trucks have a 50% tariff on them
Remember that tariff works in both directions… eu to us and vice versa |
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"The number of cars coming off the production lines fell in 2022 to levels last seen in 1956. The highest number of cars ever produced in the U.K. was in 2016 and the numbers in 2022 were down 55% on what they were in 2016.
Blue passports though.
This is nothing to do with Brexit. Hubby works for a car component supplier and their customers (actual car manufacturers) aren't able to produce as many cars due to the issues in chip supply globally.
Things are picking up now. In the last two years though some car manufacturers focussed on only making specific models due to such low component supply.
Do you think Brexit has ‘helped’ the car industry?
I wonder why Honda closed down their Swindon factory after 2016?
"
The EU applied trade tariffs to cars imported from Japan. In 2017 the EU negotiated a new agreement that removed tariffs and therefore Honda could now export cars from their Japanese factories without incurring extra costs. |
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"So should the UK go the same route with state aid?"
Absolutely not.
"Corporate Welfare", where privately-owned companies lap-up tax-payer's money in order to be "viable" businesses is the antithesis of a free-market economy.
Providing publicly-funded benefits and services that are aimed at meeting the needs and/or wants of private businesses has been a key part of what governments do and have always done. However, the net effect of such interventions is to socialise business risks and ultimately profits.
I tire of many so-called "Business Entrepreneurs" who elicit sob-stories of them taking all the risks and so should reap the rewards, when it's the Bank of The Tax Payer who's propping up their business idea with corporate welfare.
Not all companies need corporate welfare but most receive it in one form or another. And research shows that it is the largest companies that often receive the most.
Despite the importance of corporate welfare, it is under-researched and is seldom discussed and debated. |
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
" Now I read that America has introduced financial incentives for their market to temp manufacturers to buy American made cars. Ford is closing several places on the continent and moving them back to America. The EU apparently are not happy and may allow a form of state aid to halt the exodus. So should the UK go the same route with state aid?
I was just about to talk about this… under the new NAFTA rules basically for a car to be classed as “American built” and qualify for all sorts of tax breaks and credits it must now have 80% of all components “American made”
It’s not really state aid as such… but cars already have a 25% tariff on them under WTO rules…trucks have a 50% tariff on them
Remember that tariff works in both directions… eu to us and vice versa "
That's sort of what I read to though don't think tariffs were mentioned. From my understanding the American government will give a discount on cars purchased (I think EV's) where they are made in America and as you say the majority of parts are also made in America. I assume to encourage home produced cars over imported cars. As the state is paying for it and it directly benefits local companies it is very much like state aid, though technically may not be. Is it a bad idea to do this. Should the UK and others do similar |
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After just reading through all of these posts again and looking at the title it got me thinking.
Out of the UK car brands or manufacturers I can’t think of one that is actually British owned or has at least more than a 51% share from a UK director.
When you think that all these manufacturers below started off in the UK as small companies but due to finical difficulties competing with foreign manufacturers they have all been in finical difficulty and bought by people/investors outside of the UK
Bentley: owned by Volkswagen Audi group (Germany)
Aston Martin: owned by investors from all over the world. More outside the UK.
Jaguar & Land Rover: Owned by TATA (India)
Caterham: owned by a Malaysian business man
London electric taxis: owned by a Chinese company
Lotus: owned by a Malaysian business man
McLaren: owned by a Bahrain business man
MG: Chinese company
Mini: German company, BMW
Rolls Royce: Again, BMW Germany.
Vauxhall: owned by Peugeot in France and Vauxhalls from 2021 are all Peugeot platform cars with a Vauxhall badge.
Morgan cars: sold out to a Italian company.
It’s quite sad really, we talk about the UK car industry but really it’s gone |
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By *ertwoCouple
over a year ago
omagh |
Stop putting our UK down if it was so bad because of Brexit there would be no boats every day with people risking their lives escaping from the the EU. But the unions will destroy the UK as they did with car industry in the 70s. Remember when people support big pay rises it is us the people using trains etc that end up paying the final bill. Teachers on strick but I dont see any of them driving 10 plus year old cars. Boris the wanker handing out £20 extra to those on the dole have to ask why as they had the same money coming in as before covid. Did the people with their hands out not understand we the tax payers have to foot the bill. |
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If our government does nothing soon about car manufacturing in the UK there with be no cars built here. The only option I believe there is, is for the government to support a British made cars financially. The French government does it with their manufactures. We are going to loose skills that we will never replace soon. People are retiring and once they go they are gone. We also need to look at the cost to produce anything here. If we produce nothing then we are going to be at the will of other countries. So instead of being a leader we will have to follow the USA, china and Russia. Scary thought |
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
"Stop putting our UK down if it was so bad because of Brexit there would be no boats every day with people risking their lives escaping from the the EU. "
In another thread we asked spoke about political grooming and how to recognise if you had been groomed.
One way of discovering if you had been groomed was if you had a habit of asserting things which have only a tenuous attachment to reality but which reinforces your own bias.
“Escaping from the EU”
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
"After just reading through all of these posts again and looking at the title it got me thinking.
Out of the UK car brands or manufacturers I can’t think of one that is actually British owned or has at least more than a 51% share from a UK director.
When you think that all these manufacturers below started off in the UK as small companies but due to finical difficulties competing with foreign manufacturers they have all been in finical difficulty and bought by people/investors outside of the UK
Bentley: owned by Volkswagen Audi group (Germany)
Aston Martin: owned by investors from all over the world. More outside the UK.
Jaguar & Land Rover: Owned by TATA (India)
Caterham: owned by a Malaysian business man
London electric taxis: owned by a Chinese company
Lotus: owned by a Malaysian business man
McLaren: owned by a Bahrain business man
MG: Chinese company
Mini: German company, BMW
Rolls Royce: Again, BMW Germany.
Vauxhall: owned by Peugeot in France and Vauxhalls from 2021 are all Peugeot platform cars with a Vauxhall badge.
Morgan cars: sold out to a Italian company.
It’s quite sad really, we talk about the UK car industry but really it’s gone "
A sad but true list. I don't think this is a recent development and has been going on for many years. Colleagues at work tell me that lots of cars were built here once but they were not great and the industry had all sorts of problems in the 70's |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
" Now I read that America has introduced financial incentives for their market to temp manufacturers to buy American made cars. Ford is closing several places on the continent and moving them back to America. The EU apparently are not happy and may allow a form of state aid to halt the exodus. So should the UK go the same route with state aid?
I was just about to talk about this… under the new NAFTA rules basically for a car to be classed as “American built” and qualify for all sorts of tax breaks and credits it must now have 80% of all components “American made”
It’s not really state aid as such… but cars already have a 25% tariff on them under WTO rules…trucks have a 50% tariff on them
Remember that tariff works in both directions… eu to us and vice versa
That's sort of what I read to though don't think tariffs were mentioned. From my understanding the American government will give a discount on cars purchased (I think EV's) where they are made in America and as you say the majority of parts are also made in America. I assume to encourage home produced cars over imported cars. As the state is paying for it and it directly benefits local companies it is very much like state aid, though technically may not be. Is it a bad idea to do this. Should the UK and others do similar"
EV’s are actually treated slightly differently….yes.. the American made rules apply.. if it’s not an American made EV, it gets no credits . the U.S. government give a 5000 “tax credits” on any EV under 50,000 dollars if American made and a 7500 “tax credit” on any EV built in America that is built with union labour (that was specifically aimed at Tesla as Elon doesn’t recognise unions in his factories)
Should the uk do the same… if the uk had a car industry left.. then absolutely! At this stage since most car manufacturers are going all or mostly electric by 2030… any encouragement to help people make the switch from ICE to EV helps |
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Fabio.
Don’t get me started on EV’s. It’s not the future and the used price of them is about to crash. People have realised that they are not practical and it’s cheaper and more reliable to use ICE |
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
" Now I read that America has introduced financial incentives for their market to temp manufacturers to buy American made cars. Ford is closing several places on the continent and moving them back to America. The EU apparently are not happy and may allow a form of state aid to halt the exodus. So should the UK go the same route with state aid?
I was just about to talk about this… under the new NAFTA rules basically for a car to be classed as “American built” and qualify for all sorts of tax breaks and credits it must now have 80% of all components “American made”
It’s not really state aid as such… but cars already have a 25% tariff on them under WTO rules…trucks have a 50% tariff on them
Remember that tariff works in both directions… eu to us and vice versa
That's sort of what I read to though don't think tariffs were mentioned. From my understanding the American government will give a discount on cars purchased (I think EV's) where they are made in America and as you say the majority of parts are also made in America. I assume to encourage home produced cars over imported cars. As the state is paying for it and it directly benefits local companies it is very much like state aid, though technically may not be. Is it a bad idea to do this. Should the UK and others do similar
EV’s are actually treated slightly differently….yes.. the American made rules apply.. if it’s not an American made EV, it gets no credits . the U.S. government give a 5000 “tax credits” on any EV under 50,000 dollars if American made and a 7500 “tax credit” on any EV built in America that is built with union labour (that was specifically aimed at Tesla as Elon doesn’t recognise unions in his factories)
Should the uk do the same… if the uk had a car industry left.. then absolutely! At this stage since most car manufacturers are going all or mostly electric by 2030… any encouragement to help people make the switch from ICE to EV helps "
Yes that sounds like the report I read. To me its a form of state aid but maybe technically it's not. Personally I think the UK does have a car industry. They may be foreign owners but built in the UK along with many components to. Cars are often one of the top exports. I think the UK may have to do something similar as the case of the Ford places closing in Europe highlights the potential problems. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"Fabio.
Don’t get me started on EV’s. It’s not the future and the used price of them is about to crash. People have realised that they are not practical and it’s cheaper and more reliable to use ICE "
You say that the used price is about to crash.. I would argue that it’s about to crash because the prices have been over inflated by certain manufacturers
Case in point.. I was on the original Tesla model 3 waiting list before the price went through to roof and I thought it was too expensive for me, then I get an email from them 10 days ago trumpeting the fact they had slashed all their cars prices by 10-15%
So if competition starts bringing down prices… good |
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"Fabio.
Don’t get me started on EV’s. It’s not the future and the used price of them is about to crash. People have realised that they are not practical and it’s cheaper and more reliable to use ICE
You say that the used price is about to crash.. I would argue that it’s about to crash because the prices have been over inflated by certain manufacturers
Case in point.. I was on the original Tesla model 3 waiting list before the price went through to roof and I thought it was too expensive for me, then I get an email from them 10 days ago trumpeting the fact they had slashed all their cars prices by 10-15%
So if competition starts bringing down prices… good "
No Fabio. EV car prices are starting to crash, trust me! |
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"The number of cars coming off the production lines fell in 2022 to levels last seen in 1956. The highest number of cars ever produced in the U.K. was in 2016 and the numbers in 2022 were down 55% on what they were in 2016.
Blue passports though.
Ah, the benefits of Brexit! I see the positive side of this.
Because far more German and French cars are being made and sold, now no-one wants British ones, those foreigners who came here to work in the car industry, have stayed in Europe. Reducing immigration!! Result!! Who said Brexit was a bad thing?
Who said brexit was a bad thing…..
1) you do know that those “foreigners” coming here to work in the uk car industry would have been paying taxes here…
2) the uk car components industry might want have a word with you and explain how “tariffs” on parts have now put them at a competitive disadvantage… that plus excessive paperwork.."
Fabio, I was being ironic mate. Reducing immigration to Britain by moving jobs to the EU is not a win. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"Fabio.
Don’t get me started on EV’s. It’s not the future and the used price of them is about to crash. People have realised that they are not practical and it’s cheaper and more reliable to use ICE
You say that the used price is about to crash.. I would argue that it’s about to crash because the prices have been over inflated by certain manufacturers
Case in point.. I was on the original Tesla model 3 waiting list before the price went through to roof and I thought it was too expensive for me, then I get an email from them 10 days ago trumpeting the fact they had slashed all their cars prices by 10-15%
So if competition starts bringing down prices… good
No Fabio. EV car prices are starting to crash, trust me! "
And I am saying that if for example I can get a really good MG4 for 25-30k… it means the whole scene goes from being an executive or eco hippy toy to something the masses can finally think about as a realistic alternative |
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"Fabio.
Don’t get me started on EV’s. It’s not the future and the used price of them is about to crash. People have realised that they are not practical and it’s cheaper and more reliable to use ICE
You say that the used price is about to crash.. I would argue that it’s about to crash because the prices have been over inflated by certain manufacturers
Case in point.. I was on the original Tesla model 3 waiting list before the price went through to roof and I thought it was too expensive for me, then I get an email from them 10 days ago trumpeting the fact they had slashed all their cars prices by 10-15%
So if competition starts bringing down prices… good
No Fabio. EV car prices are starting to crash, trust me! "
I had a look online and EV's are all over the place in terms of pricing.
Tesla model 3 14k miles £34K, it indicated it was about 3k under market value.
If EV prices are low, why as the demand dropped? Is the price of electric, the talk of power cuts? What's going on? |
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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago
Manchester |
"There's a new kid in town and it's called "range anxiety""
Also a recent winter group test of EVs from Leeds to Weatherby calculated that converting the costs back to standard fuelled cars the EVs were averaging 24 mpg cost wise.
It’s the uncertainty of cost and definitely range issues along with infrastructure. Once electric cars can cover 600miles as standard the commercial customers will pile in en masse.
The queues of teslas at Christmas waiting to charge in motorway services didn’t help.
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"Fabio.
Don’t get me started on EV’s. It’s not the future and the used price of them is about to crash. People have realised that they are not practical and it’s cheaper and more reliable to use ICE
You say that the used price is about to crash.. I would argue that it’s about to crash because the prices have been over inflated by certain manufacturers
Case in point.. I was on the original Tesla model 3 waiting list before the price went through to roof and I thought it was too expensive for me, then I get an email from them 10 days ago trumpeting the fact they had slashed all their cars prices by 10-15%
So if competition starts bringing down prices… good
No Fabio. EV car prices are starting to crash, trust me!
I had a look online and EV's are all over the place in terms of pricing.
Tesla model 3 14k miles £34K, it indicated it was about 3k under market value.
If EV prices are low, why as the demand dropped? Is the price of electric, the talk of power cuts? What's going on?"
People that have bought EV have realised that it’s not a sensible option.
Range anxiety and the “running costs” are big problems.
A EV is actually worse for the environment in the long term. The damage caused by mining the materials and the short life of the cars means that they overall effect on the environment far worse than a ICE.
The public, well EV owners and well known public figures are speaking out about this and it’s causing the demand to drop and prices to crash.
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"Fabio.
Don’t get me started on EV’s. It’s not the future and the used price of them is about to crash. People have realised that they are not practical and it’s cheaper and more reliable to use ICE
You say that the used price is about to crash.. I would argue that it’s about to crash because the prices have been over inflated by certain manufacturers
Case in point.. I was on the original Tesla model 3 waiting list before the price went through to roof and I thought it was too expensive for me, then I get an email from them 10 days ago trumpeting the fact they had slashed all their cars prices by 10-15%
So if competition starts bringing down prices… good
No Fabio. EV car prices are starting to crash, trust me!
I had a look online and EV's are all over the place in terms of pricing.
Tesla model 3 14k miles £34K, it indicated it was about 3k under market value.
If EV prices are low, why as the demand dropped? Is the price of electric, the talk of power cuts? What's going on?
People that have bought EV have realised that it’s not a sensible option.
Range anxiety and the “running costs” are big problems.
A EV is actually worse for the environment in the long term. The damage caused by mining the materials and the short life of the cars means that they overall effect on the environment far worse than a ICE.
The public, well EV owners and well known public figures are speaking out about this and it’s causing the demand to drop and prices to crash.
"
In short we are jumping out pan into the fire with EV's? |
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Pretty much. I can’t see any positives to electric cars apart from
“No emissions”. Yes they do not directly produce emissions BUT in directly they produce far more.
Power, this is great as electric motors produce serious torque.
Diesel cars can be filled up anywhere, have on average a 500 mile range and take less than 5mins to refuel. So potentially you can drive 500 miles continuously, refuel in 5 mins and do the same again.
Diesel cars produce direct emissions but if you look at a diesel Car (BMW,VW,Volvo,Mercedes) that’s 15 years old it’s not unusual for them to do 300k miles and with regular simple cheap servicing they will do it again. A
Electric car would never do that age and mileage without the battery having to be replaced.
A friend has a EV Mitsubishi Outlander, 3 years old and she hit a traffic cone on the M6. It damaged the battery so it needed replacing. The cost for the battery alone was £18,000. It write the car off.
I hit a lump of concrete in the road in my diesel BMW and it cost £500 for a new sump incl the labour bill.
The EV facts don’t add up to make it work.
People are seeing this and that’s why the prices of used EV is plummeting.
I can think of two close friends that have gone from EV back to Diesel cars. |
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Some articles have come up in the news today.
“UK factory output ‘falling at fastest rate in more than two years“
And
“UK car production collapses to lowest for 66 years”
I really hope the UK can turn this around and make it a country that produces quality items at realistic prices. |
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"I really hope the UK can turn this around and make it a country that produces quality items at realistic prices. "
Zero chance of that ever happening, not now, not ever.
Why ? Because we cannot compete with lower labour costs in other countries. Manufacturing has moved out there to leverage the lower labour costs, and deliver higher returns for the shareholders.
The end result is cheaper products for domestic markets.
People are generally not paying for quality anymore, not for a number of decades.
Buy cheap, chuck it in the bin when it breaks, get a new one.
Sure perhaps a Miele washing machine is worth paying the extra for, if you want a good 10+ years life out of it.
Or you could just a cheapo Hotpoint every couple of years. End result is the same.
I'd always buy quality for high value items, but now there is not much to really differentiate between the two anymore.
It's a race to the bottom, and the UK is rushing to the bottom faster than many other countries, so we are "world-beating" in that respect I guess.
We're done. Finished. Finito.
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"I really hope the UK can turn this around and make it a country that produces quality items at realistic prices.
Zero chance of that ever happening, not now, not ever.
Why ? Because we cannot compete with lower labour costs in other countries. Manufacturing has moved out there to leverage the lower labour costs, and deliver higher returns for the shareholders.
The end result is cheaper products for domestic markets.
People are generally not paying for quality anymore, not for a number of decades.
Buy cheap, chuck it in the bin when it breaks, get a new one.
Sure perhaps a Miele washing machine is worth paying the extra for, if you want a good 10+ years life out of it.
Or you could just a cheapo Hotpoint every couple of years. End result is the same.
I'd always buy quality for high value items, but now there is not much to really differentiate between the two anymore.
It's a race to the bottom, and the UK is rushing to the bottom faster than many other countries, so we are "world-beating" in that respect I guess.
We're done. Finished. Finito.
"
Wow your just a ray of sunshine  |
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
"
I really hope the UK can turn this around and make it a country that produces quality items at realistic prices. "
We can do this with subsidised energy prices, low wages and subsidised business rates.
But that’s not going to happen. We can continue to make quality items - but at a premium. |
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"Wow your(sic) just a ray of sunshine "
I believe honesty is the best policy. There is no point sugar-coating the slow, terminal death of the UK as a large manufacturing base. Why pretend otherwise ? That's being disingenuous.
There are other options of course, but I did not wish to go off-topic. |
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"
We can do this with subsidised energy prices, low wages and subsidised business rates.
But that’s not going to happen. We can continue to make quality items - but at a premium."
subsidised energy prices = corporate welfare.
low wages = subsistence living
subsidised business = corporate welfare
And to support the low wages, social welfare.
Essentially, you are enrichening a minority person or group of people by using taxpayer's money to prop up their business in order to make it viable enough to survive, which in turn then employs people on low wages, and to ensure further viability you have to prop up those people with social welfare, and further prop up the business with subsidised energy costs ?
That's an awful lot of propping up, isn't it ?
You might as well cut out the tier at the top (and thus there is no need to subsidise them with taxpayers money for their business, nor their energy costs), and reroute the money direct to the taxpayer.
But of course, how do you have that money to disperse if nothing is made in order to generate it ?
Good question. I'm not sure on the answer.
But all systems eventually suffer entropy and decay before societal and economic change reframes its needs and wants. |
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I do really worry about the future of the UK. There’s thousands of manufacturing jobs finishing every year and we are taking in unskilled immigrants at a alarming rate.
In 10 years time there will be 5 people for every job position and the country will be bankrupt |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I never understand why people in the UK have such an emotional attachment to having a "car industry". Industry, jobs generally, yes of course but there does seem to be a fixation with being a car manufacturer for some strange reason. Plenty of countries survive without manufacturing cars.
Personally I don't care what drives my car, petrol, electricity, hydrogen it doesn't matter a jot. It just needs to work. The reality is that at the moment EVs are not as good as existing car technologies. They may get better or better technology than electric may come along, but the government drive to get people to pay over the odds for obviously substandard products is creating a lot of uncertainty, and people will probably just hold off buying cars over the next few years and wait to see what happens on the regulatory front. |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"I have just seen on the news that Ford is making over 1000 staff redundant "
That's just in the UK. There's also 2300 jobs to go at Ford Germany.
EV development is being largely being taken back to the USA, and Ford have just announced plans to build a huge battery plant in Michigan. Strangely, this plant is in collaboration with the Chinese. |
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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago
Manchester |
"I do really worry about the future of the UK. There’s thousands of manufacturing jobs finishing every year and we are taking in unskilled immigrants at a alarming rate.
In 10 years time there will be 5 people for every job position and the country will be bankrupt "
Erm at lot of those immigrants are actually very skilled and well educated but not being allowed to work is a more serious problem.
You can thank 30 years of “ market forces policy” for the loss of great swathes of our manufacturing base. Add to this the pretence that things are fine by allowing cheap imports to keeps real costs down thereby hiding reality.
How many on here buy made in China ? All of us is the answer. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I do really worry about the future of the UK. There’s thousands of manufacturing jobs finishing every year and we are taking in unskilled immigrants at a alarming rate.
In 10 years time there will be 5 people for every job position and the country will be bankrupt
Erm at lot of those immigrants are actually very skilled and well educated but not being allowed to work is a more serious problem.
You can thank 30 years of “ market forces policy” for the loss of great swathes of our manufacturing base. Add to this the pretence that things are fine by allowing cheap imports to keeps real costs down thereby hiding reality.
How many on here buy made in China ? All of us is the answer. "
The majority of them are not skilled workers and even if they are skilled they are not skilled to British standard qualifications so they will need re training at more expense to the UK tax payer |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"I do really worry about the future of the UK. There’s thousands of manufacturing jobs finishing every year and we are taking in unskilled immigrants at a alarming rate.
In 10 years time there will be 5 people for every job position and the country will be bankrupt
Erm at lot of those immigrants are actually very skilled and well educated but not being allowed to work is a more serious problem.
You can thank 30 years of “ market forces policy” for the loss of great swathes of our manufacturing base. Add to this the pretence that things are fine by allowing cheap imports to keeps real costs down thereby hiding reality.
How many on here buy made in China ? All of us is the answer.
The majority of them are not skilled workers and even if they are skilled they are not skilled to British standard qualifications so they will need re training at more expense to the UK tax payer "
That's a very dated view.
Their skill level is appropriate to the product that they design or build.
Jaguar Land Rover's products built in China are more reliable than those built in the UK. |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"The number of cars coming off the production lines fell in 2022 to levels last seen in 1956. The highest number of cars ever produced in the U.K. was in 2016 and the numbers in 2022 were down 55% on what they were in 2016.
Blue passports though."
A big part of that fall is component shortages due to COVID. Cutting production and not giving suppliers certainty so important items such as microchips were switched to other products by the suppliers. It's taken a long time to come back.
Demand has actually far outstripped supply of cars for several years.
However, the UK has been particularly badly hit because we have relatively small scale manufacture and trade barriers so it is easier for suppliers to sell in bulk into the EU than to us so UK production is hit harder. |
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By *I TwoCouple
over a year ago
Cookstown |
"I do really worry about the future of the UK. There’s thousands of manufacturing jobs finishing every year and we are taking in unskilled immigrants at a alarming rate.
In 10 years time there will be 5 people for every job position and the country will be bankrupt
Erm at lot of those immigrants are actually very skilled and well educated but not being allowed to work is a more serious problem.
You can thank 30 years of “ market forces policy” for the loss of great swathes of our manufacturing base. Add to this the pretence that things are fine by allowing cheap imports to keeps real costs down thereby hiding reality.
How many on here buy made in China ? All of us is the answer.
The majority of them are not skilled workers and even if they are skilled they are not skilled to British standard qualifications so they will need re training at more expense to the UK tax payer "
Then why are BMW moving production of electric minis from the UK to China ? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I’m sure they are skilled in their own right but the UK qualifications like city and guilds will not recognise it. So they are not classed as skilled in this country so the government will spend more money training them |
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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago
Manchester |
"I do really worry about the future of the UK. There’s thousands of manufacturing jobs finishing every year and we are taking in unskilled immigrants at a alarming rate.
In 10 years time there will be 5 people for every job position and the country will be bankrupt
Erm at lot of those immigrants are actually very skilled and well educated but not being allowed to work is a more serious problem.
You can thank 30 years of “ market forces policy” for the loss of great swathes of our manufacturing base. Add to this the pretence that things are fine by allowing cheap imports to keeps real costs down thereby hiding reality.
How many on here buy made in China ? All of us is the answer.
The majority of them are not skilled workers and even if they are skilled they are not skilled to British standard qualifications so they will need re training at more expense to the UK tax payer "
Rubbish .
Industry and loans as usual take care of that. I wasn’t given any money for my kids uni !
When have you seen the U.K. government pay for mass training? |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"I’m sure they are skilled in their own right but the UK qualifications like city and guilds will not recognise it. So they are not classed as skilled in this country so the government will spend more money training them "
It doesn't have to be at the cost to the UK tax payer. It can be at the cost to the private companies who need their services. It costs them far more to not have the staff and not be doing the work that is demanded.
The problem that they currently have is that there is literally nobody suitable even knocking on the door. |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"I do really worry about the future of the UK. There’s thousands of manufacturing jobs finishing every year and we are taking in unskilled immigrants at a alarming rate.
In 10 years time there will be 5 people for every job position and the country will be bankrupt
Erm at lot of those immigrants are actually very skilled and well educated but not being allowed to work is a more serious problem.
You can thank 30 years of “ market forces policy” for the loss of great swathes of our manufacturing base. Add to this the pretence that things are fine by allowing cheap imports to keeps real costs down thereby hiding reality.
How many on here buy made in China ? All of us is the answer.
The majority of them are not skilled workers and even if they are skilled they are not skilled to British standard qualifications so they will need re training at more expense to the UK tax payer
Then why are BMW moving production of electric minis from the UK to China ?"
Because Cowley is committed to producing ICE Minis until 2030. The factory isn't geared up to take both variants.
Chinese production will be cheaper and German companies have targeted China with trade delegations for years now. They see cheaper manufacture, coupled with a vast emerging market as a plus. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I do really worry about the future of the UK. There’s thousands of manufacturing jobs finishing every year and we are taking in unskilled immigrants at a alarming rate.
In 10 years time there will be 5 people for every job position and the country will be bankrupt
Erm at lot of those immigrants are actually very skilled and well educated but not being allowed to work is a more serious problem.
You can thank 30 years of “ market forces policy” for the loss of great swathes of our manufacturing base. Add to this the pretence that things are fine by allowing cheap imports to keeps real costs down thereby hiding reality.
How many on here buy made in China ? All of us is the answer.
The majority of them are not skilled workers and even if they are skilled they are not skilled to British standard qualifications so they will need re training at more expense to the UK tax payer
Rubbish .
Industry and loans as usual take care of that. I wasn’t given any money for my kids uni !
When have you seen the U.K. government pay for mass training? "
So you are really saying that the current “asylum seekers” that are costing the tax payers £6m a week to keep on hotels will not get more government money to be trained?
I know for a fact that there is already plans to send them to colleges and unis |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"I do really worry about the future of the UK. There’s thousands of manufacturing jobs finishing every year and we are taking in unskilled immigrants at a alarming rate.
In 10 years time there will be 5 people for every job position and the country will be bankrupt
Erm at lot of those immigrants are actually very skilled and well educated but not being allowed to work is a more serious problem.
You can thank 30 years of “ market forces policy” for the loss of great swathes of our manufacturing base. Add to this the pretence that things are fine by allowing cheap imports to keeps real costs down thereby hiding reality.
How many on here buy made in China ? All of us is the answer.
The majority of them are not skilled workers and even if they are skilled they are not skilled to British standard qualifications so they will need re training at more expense to the UK tax payer
Rubbish .
Industry and loans as usual take care of that. I wasn’t given any money for my kids uni !
When have you seen the U.K. government pay for mass training?
So you are really saying that the current “asylum seekers” that are costing the tax payers £6m a week to keep on hotels will not get more government money to be trained?
I know for a fact that there is already plans to send them to colleges and unis "
They don't need to necessarily. They may require some English courses. They should get some sort of cultural integration.
If there is a job requirement and it is not being filled then the Government would, I assume, offer training to anyone wanting to fill those roles.
University is somewhat surprising. Is it particular sectors? Is it everyone? Is it for specific individuals? |
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By *ackal1Couple
over a year ago
Manchester |
"I do really worry about the future of the UK. There’s thousands of manufacturing jobs finishing every year and we are taking in unskilled immigrants at a alarming rate.
In 10 years time there will be 5 people for every job position and the country will be bankrupt
Erm at lot of those immigrants are actually very skilled and well educated but not being allowed to work is a more serious problem.
You can thank 30 years of “ market forces policy” for the loss of great swathes of our manufacturing base. Add to this the pretence that things are fine by allowing cheap imports to keeps real costs down thereby hiding reality.
How many on here buy made in China ? All of us is the answer.
The majority of them are not skilled workers and even if they are skilled they are not skilled to British standard qualifications so they will need re training at more expense to the UK tax payer
Rubbish .
Industry and loans as usual take care of that. I wasn’t given any money for my kids uni !
When have you seen the U.K. government pay for mass training?
So you are really saying that the current “asylum seekers” that are costing the tax payers £6m a week to keep on hotels will not get more government money to be trained?
I know for a fact that there is already plans to send them to colleges and unis "
The reason most aren’t working is because they are not allowed so the £6m a day is self inflicted and the 120k backlog is directly due to the lack of processing.
Anyone would think it’s a problem created on purpose ..
Industry can train workers and inevitably does I know for a fact because we do!!
If they are studying medicine at university that’s good so yes cough up Sunak as we need nurses.
So not sure why that’s a bad thing? It’s good we will have more qualified workers as we are around 1.3m short right now.
You do know most rejected asylum seekers arrive from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh on planes so they are not without funds. So those able to stay I’m sure have assets too.
A lawyer I know has been working on two asylum seekers he knows cases trying to get permission to stay for the last 18months and they are not allowed to work.
Both are senior and well qualified nurses from Iraq. ISIS came calling each week for drugs . One week there were no drugs .
They were told if it happens again they will be punished . They left the next day.
One had authority to supply all the drugs for the hospital the other worked in theatre.
£6m a day you say!!
Incompetent government.
Actually I believe deceitful government creating a rallying point for rabid racists and right wing Xenophobia .
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Wow, no idea how this thread swerved off topic but we'll just chime in again.
Hubby works in IT for the automotive industry at the moment, has done for the past couple of years.
All the skuttlebutt on internal comms (which he has full visibility of) is due to car manufacturers struggling to get hold of microchips.
This is more to do with US and China trade wars over chips, and Covid supply issues than anything else. That said, what would he know, he isn't a 'journalist' and only works in the industry. |
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"The number of cars coming off the production lines fell in 2022 to levels last seen in 1956. The highest number of cars ever produced in the U.K. was in 2016 and the numbers in 2022 were down 55% on what they were in 2016.
Blue passports though."
Fuck, first world problems and all that |
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"Wow, no idea how this thread swerved off topic but we'll just chime in again.
Hubby works in IT for the automotive industry at the moment, has done for the past couple of years.
All the skuttlebutt on internal comms (which he has full visibility of) is due to car manufacturers struggling to get hold of microchips.
This is more to do with US and China trade wars over chips, and Covid supply issues than anything else. That said, what would he know, he isn't a 'journalist' and only works in the industry."
With tensions rising with China and USA and the possibility of China helping Russia I think that the chip shortage will get worse pretty soon |
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"Wow, no idea how this thread swerved off topic but we'll just chime in again.
Hubby works in IT for the automotive industry at the moment, has done for the past couple of years.
All the skuttlebutt on internal comms (which he has full visibility of) is due to car manufacturers struggling to get hold of microchips.
This is more to do with US and China trade wars over chips, and Covid supply issues than anything else. That said, what would he know, he isn't a 'journalist' and only works in the industry.
With tensions rising with China and USA and the possibility of China helping Russia I think that the chip shortage will get worse pretty soon "
We have a backlog of four months for components.
Covid certainly had an effect however it was only lead times that suffered.
The actual manufacturing shortage now is having a detrimental effect on our production.
China seem to be holding all the cards.  |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Wow, no idea how this thread swerved off topic but we'll just chime in again.
Hubby works in IT for the automotive industry at the moment, has done for the past couple of years.
All the skuttlebutt on internal comms (which he has full visibility of) is due to car manufacturers struggling to get hold of microchips.
This is more to do with US and China trade wars over chips, and Covid supply issues than anything else. That said, what would he know, he isn't a 'journalist' and only works in the industry."
All countries are seeing component shortages.
The UK is coming of worst for our own, unique, reasosns. Part, but not all of the story is investment uncertainty due both to Brexit and incompetent and ever-changing Government policy with even the same party in charge. |
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