FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > Should teachers beable to strike?
Should teachers beable to strike?
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"Do train drivers say to everyone ' we are doing double trips tomorrow so we can strike the next day ? " No, but their managers do double work in the days and weeks beforehand to cover shifts where they can. Truth be told it’s more for train guards than drivers but I’m out here today covering for depot drivers | |||
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"Yes, of course they should. I heard on the news that this strike is the biggest one for many years. Today teachers are going on strike and it will last for 4 days, the union estimates that 23,400 schools will be affected over the seven days of action, but each school will be affected for a maximum of only four days. Is the strike about pay and what will happen to the pupils, like have they prepared extra school work for them? Many parents arent happy about it, as some have to take time of work and stay at home." Still.. Its not like the kids are already fucked up from covid rules. What's another disrupted term or two going to harm? Yes they should be able to strike. | |||
"What is the point of striking if you prepare the work first ? Did any coal miner say ..... we'll just do double the work this week and pile the coal high so that we can strike next week ? Do train drivers say to everyone ' we are doing double trips tomorrow so we can strike the next day ? Daft idea. Do parents ever make a plan B for emergency situations ? That said ...... I don't think anyone should be striking for the next two years. After that ....... " 2 things:- 1, teachers have such a heavy work load as it is so setting work is a way for the pupils not to fall behind on any syllabus. 2, why the next two years? | |||
"Absolutely. As should other public sector workers." Why only public sector workers.? What about self employed? Or private sector? | |||
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LvM | |||
"Absolutely. As should other public sector workers. Why only public sector workers.? What about self employed? Or private sector? " Self employed going on strike is a bit self defeatist, they can , however, choose which sources of employment they favour. I have self employed friends who wouldn’t do work for certain customers, however much they offered to pay, simply because experience has taught them those customers aren’t worth the grief. | |||
"My favourite thing about these strikes is that the government's response is always "we're concerned this will cause disruption". I actually shouted "that's the point!" at the car radio today
LvM"I always laugh at that too. Also the warnings by concerned tv presenters that people's train journeys will be 'severely disrupted ' as if we've all been living under a rock  | |||
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"Absolutely. As should other public sector workers. Why only public sector workers.? What about self employed? Or private sector? " Was about to rib you on the self employed one but someone else beat me to it! Of course any employee should be allowed to strike. Did you know that in the 1970s union membership in the private sector was around 57% but today that figure has dwindled to 17%. Hard to strike as an individual or without the collective bargaining power of a union behind you. Only the public sector remains highly unionised. Even the privatised utilities have lost unionisation. (Some) People working in the private sector get angry at public sector workers striking saying “we can’t” well you used to be able to! Join a union! | |||
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"What is the point of striking if you prepare the work first ? Did any coal miner say ..... we'll just do double the work this week and pile the coal high so that we can strike next week ? Do train drivers say to everyone ' we are doing double trips tomorrow so we can strike the next day ? Daft idea. Do parents ever make a plan B for emergency situations ? That said ...... I don't think anyone should be striking for the next two years. After that ....... " That is right as well, but some parents might not been able to take time off. | |||
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"Absolutely. As should other public sector workers. Why only public sector workers.? What about self employed? Or private sector? Was about to rib you on the self employed one but someone else beat me to it! Of course any employee should be allowed to strike. Did you know that in the 1970s union membership in the private sector was around 57% but today that figure has dwindled to 17%. Hard to strike as an individual or without the collective bargaining power of a union behind you. Only the public sector remains highly unionised. Even the privatised utilities have lost unionisation. (Some) People working in the private sector get angry at public sector workers striking saying “we can’t” well you used to be able to! Join a union!" The point about the self employed "striking" is... No work no pay, no follow up work.the "gig" economy is unhelpful, as is greed and impatience. Folks building a career used to matter. Public sector pensions and holidays cant be ignored either. Not employment protection. Your point about dwindling union memberships is valid. Wonder why it's dwindling? Thing is.. On other (better?) countries.. Unions or workers councils work collaboratively with employers for mutual benefit... And vice Versa. | |||
"Absolutely. As should other public sector workers. Why only public sector workers.? What about self employed? Or private sector? Was about to rib you on the self employed one but someone else beat me to it! Of course any employee should be allowed to strike. Did you know that in the 1970s union membership in the private sector was around 57% but today that figure has dwindled to 17%. Hard to strike as an individual or without the collective bargaining power of a union behind you. Only the public sector remains highly unionised. Even the privatised utilities have lost unionisation. (Some) People working in the private sector get angry at public sector workers striking saying “we can’t” well you used to be able to! Join a union!" I get your point but more like me are self employed. I agree with most striks. But in the private sector most can easily vote with there feet don't like the pay look at a diferant Job. And this is not the same for Teachers, Nurses the strikes in the media need to focus more on retention than pay I get both get linked. | |||
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"Absolutely. As should other public sector workers." Yes, they should. I do believe that some sectors arent allowed to strike, like the military, is there anyone else? When I looked it up, it said "members of the armed forces do not have the right to strike" Maibe if some could strike, but not all of them. | |||
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"Absolutely. As should other public sector workers. Why only public sector workers.? What about self employed? Or private sector? Was about to rib you on the self employed one but someone else beat me to it! Of course any employee should be allowed to strike. Did you know that in the 1970s union membership in the private sector was around 57% but today that figure has dwindled to 17%. Hard to strike as an individual or without the collective bargaining power of a union behind you. Only the public sector remains highly unionised. Even the privatised utilities have lost unionisation. (Some) People working in the private sector get angry at public sector workers striking saying “we can’t” well you used to be able to! Join a union! The point about the self employed "striking" is... No work no pay, no follow up work.the "gig" economy is unhelpful, as is greed and impatience. Folks building a career used to matter. Public sector pensions and holidays cant be ignored either. Not employment protection. Your point about dwindling union memberships is valid. Wonder why it's dwindling? Thing is.. On other (better?) countries.. Unions or workers councils work collaboratively with employers for mutual benefit... And vice Versa." “Your point about dwindling union memberships is valid. Wonder why it's dwindling?“ I would point the finger at Thatcherism in the 80s and the move away from “society” towards everyone for themselves. A generational culture change. | |||
"Absolutely. As should other public sector workers. Why only public sector workers.? What about self employed? Or private sector? Was about to rib you on the self employed one but someone else beat me to it! Of course any employee should be allowed to strike. Did you know that in the 1970s union membership in the private sector was around 57% but today that figure has dwindled to 17%. Hard to strike as an individual or without the collective bargaining power of a union behind you. Only the public sector remains highly unionised. Even the privatised utilities have lost unionisation. (Some) People working in the private sector get angry at public sector workers striking saying “we can’t” well you used to be able to! Join a union! The point about the self employed "striking" is... No work no pay, no follow up work.the "gig" economy is unhelpful, as is greed and impatience. Folks building a career used to matter. Public sector pensions and holidays cant be ignored either. Not employment protection. Your point about dwindling union memberships is valid. Wonder why it's dwindling? Thing is.. On other (better?) countries.. Unions or workers councils work collaboratively with employers for mutual benefit... And vice Versa. “Your point about dwindling union memberships is valid. Wonder why it's dwindling?“ I would point the finger at Thatcherism in the 80s and the move away from “society” towards everyone for themselves. A generational culture change." Oh and a reduction in manufacturing and closed shop floors. | |||
"Absolutely. As should other public sector workers. Why only public sector workers.? What about self employed? Or private sector? Was about to rib you on the self employed one but someone else beat me to it! Of course any employee should be allowed to strike. Did you know that in the 1970s union membership in the private sector was around 57% but today that figure has dwindled to 17%. Hard to strike as an individual or without the collective bargaining power of a union behind you. Only the public sector remains highly unionised. Even the privatised utilities have lost unionisation. (Some) People working in the private sector get angry at public sector workers striking saying “we can’t” well you used to be able to! Join a union! The point about the self employed "striking" is... No work no pay, no follow up work.the "gig" economy is unhelpful, as is greed and impatience. Folks building a career used to matter. Public sector pensions and holidays cant be ignored either. Not employment protection. Your point about dwindling union memberships is valid. Wonder why it's dwindling? Thing is.. On other (better?) countries.. Unions or workers councils work collaboratively with employers for mutual benefit... And vice Versa. “Your point about dwindling union memberships is valid. Wonder why it's dwindling?“ I would point the finger at Thatcherism in the 80s and the move away from “society” towards everyone for themselves. A generational culture change. Oh and a reduction in manufacturing and closed shop floors. " Not convinced. People are able to join unions. They are choosing not to. Why? | |||
"Absolutely. As should other public sector workers. Why only public sector workers.? What about self employed? Or private sector? Was about to rib you on the self employed one but someone else beat me to it! Of course any employee should be allowed to strike. Did you know that in the 1970s union membership in the private sector was around 57% but today that figure has dwindled to 17%. Hard to strike as an individual or without the collective bargaining power of a union behind you. Only the public sector remains highly unionised. Even the privatised utilities have lost unionisation. (Some) People working in the private sector get angry at public sector workers striking saying “we can’t” well you used to be able to! Join a union! The point about the self employed "striking" is... No work no pay, no follow up work.the "gig" economy is unhelpful, as is greed and impatience. Folks building a career used to matter. Public sector pensions and holidays cant be ignored either. Not employment protection. Your point about dwindling union memberships is valid. Wonder why it's dwindling? Thing is.. On other (better?) countries.. Unions or workers councils work collaboratively with employers for mutual benefit... And vice Versa. “Your point about dwindling union memberships is valid. Wonder why it's dwindling?“ I would point the finger at Thatcherism in the 80s and the move away from “society” towards everyone for themselves. A generational culture change. Oh and a reduction in manufacturing and closed shop floors. Not convinced. People are able to join unions. They are choosing not to. Why? " I point back to my first answer. Cultural/generational change. | |||
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"Don't know about "teachers", but when University tutors withhold their labour, not only do they encourage their employers to come to the table, they completely fuck up students who are paying a minimum of nine grand a year for a degree course. No recompense for them!" Do we know if the students support or are against the strikes? | |||
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"Don't know about "teachers", but when University tutors withhold their labour, not only do they encourage their employers to come to the table, they completely fuck up students who are paying a minimum of nine grand a year for a degree course. No recompense for them!" Yeah that is fucking outrageous. Uni education in this country is really really not that great for lots of them. They just have to accept it. | |||
"State education is over-rated. Nothing of value will be lost. Besides, kids will love time out of school. :D" Not sure who or if anyone over rates it. But it's the only one they have. And it's coming up to mocks and exams. And giving more stress to kids. Not all kids love time out of school. In many cases it's a safe haven away from a very poor home life. | |||
"Don't know about "teachers", but when University tutors withhold their labour, not only do they encourage their employers to come to the table, they completely fuck up students who are paying a minimum of nine grand a year for a degree course. No recompense for them!" Terrible for students but the anger should be directed at the Universities not the lecturers who mostly work on zero hours contracts and only get paid for the lecture itself (with one hour of prep time) and £2 per paper they have to read and mark. Makes you wonder where the £9k per year is going huh? | |||
"Don't know about "teachers", but when University tutors withhold their labour, not only do they encourage their employers to come to the table, they completely fuck up students who are paying a minimum of nine grand a year for a degree course. No recompense for them! Terrible for students but the anger should be directed at the Universities not the lecturers who mostly work on zero hours contracts and only get paid for the lecture itself (with one hour of prep time) and £2 per paper they have to read and mark. Makes you wonder where the £9k per year is going huh? " Fuck all to do with their tertiary education that's for sure. Dreadful dreadful system we have now. Pile em high and sell as many places as you can.. | |||
"Yes, of course they should. I heard on the news that this strike is the biggest one for many years. Today teachers are going on strike and it will last for 4 days, the union estimates that 23,400 schools will be affected over the seven days of action, but each school will be affected for a maximum of only four days. Is the strike about pay and what will happen to the pupils, like have they prepared extra school work for them? Many parents arent happy about it, as some have to take time of work and stay at home." Yes they should have the right. But on Meridian TV tonight the offer is 5% and 9% for new teachers. How much do they want. | |||
"Yes, of course they should. I heard on the news that this strike is the biggest one for many years. Today teachers are going on strike and it will last for 4 days, the union estimates that 23,400 schools will be affected over the seven days of action, but each school will be affected for a maximum of only four days. Is the strike about pay and what will happen to the pupils, like have they prepared extra school work for them? Many parents arent happy about it, as some have to take time of work and stay at home. Yes they should have the right. But on Meridian TV tonight the offer is 5% and 9% for new teachers. How much do they want. " Depends what they are striking for? What reason did they give to justify strike action when they balloted the union? | |||
"Yes, of course they should. I heard on the news that this strike is the biggest one for many years. Today teachers are going on strike and it will last for 4 days, the union estimates that 23,400 schools will be affected over the seven days of action, but each school will be affected for a maximum of only four days. Is the strike about pay and what will happen to the pupils, like have they prepared extra school work for them? Many parents arent happy about it, as some have to take time of work and stay at home. Yes they should have the right. But on Meridian TV tonight the offer is 5% and 9% for new teachers. How much do they want. Depends what they are striking for? What reason did they give to justify strike action when they balloted the union? " part of it is they want the 5% payrise to be funded by the govt not taken from the schools budgets further reducing the moneys head teachers have to spend per pupil . | |||
"Absolutely. As should other public sector workers.Yes, they should. I do believe that some sectors arent allowed to strike, like the military, is there anyone else? When I looked it up, it said "members of the armed forces do not have the right to strike" Maibe if some could strike, but not all of them." I wonder what the armed forces do if they are not happy with their pay, as they cant go on strike. I wonder what the procedure would be? | |||
"Absolutely. As should other public sector workers.Yes, they should. I do believe that some sectors arent allowed to strike, like the military, is there anyone else? When I looked it up, it said "members of the armed forces do not have the right to strike" Maibe if some could strike, but not all of them.I wonder what the armed forces do if they are not happy with their pay, as they cant go on strike. I wonder what the procedure would be?" I think there are restrictions on the police striking too | |||
"Absolutely. As should other public sector workers.Yes, they should. I do believe that some sectors arent allowed to strike, like the military, is there anyone else? When I looked it up, it said "members of the armed forces do not have the right to strike" Maibe if some could strike, but not all of them.I wonder what the armed forces do if they are not happy with their pay, as they cant go on strike. I wonder what the procedure would be? I think there are restrictions on the police striking too" Yes. I also think that the police are restricted as well. | |||
"Yes, of course they should. I heard on the news that this strike is the biggest one for many years. Today teachers are going on strike and it will last for 4 days, the union estimates that 23,400 schools will be affected over the seven days of action, but each school will be affected for a maximum of only four days. Is the strike about pay and what will happen to the pupils, like have they prepared extra school work for them? Many parents arent happy about it, as some have to take time of work and stay at home. Yes they should have the right. But on Meridian TV tonight the offer is 5% and 9% for new teachers. How much do they want. Depends what they are striking for? What reason did they give to justify strike action when they balloted the union? part of it is they want the 5% payrise to be funded by the govt not taken from the schools budgets further reducing the moneys head teachers have to spend per pupil ." There's also the issue of pay erosion due to inflation over time. Given inflation running at 10%, a pay offer of 5% represents a real-terms pay-cut of 5%. So what's actually happening is this year teachers' pay was cut by 5%. And this isn't the first time this has happened. Since 2010, teachers' pay has dropped by an average of 13% as a result of below-inflation pay awards. Would some numbers help? New teachers first, as the government is making much hay over their 9% increase, claiming they're pushing their salary up to £30,000. In 2009-2010 (the first year of Tories), new teacher salary was £21,500. Adjusted for inflation to today, that would represent £31,500. Notice that's less than the 'generous' increase from our 'caring' overlords? For experienced teachers, those numbers are even worse, with a teacher like myself (teaching since 2009 here) being over £6,000 per year worse off than I should be if my pay had matched inflation. This is not about a pay 'rise', it's about not wanting to constantly have our pay cut. | |||
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"Yes, of course they should. I heard on the news that this strike is the biggest one for many years. Today teachers are going on strike and it will last for 4 days, the union estimates that 23,400 schools will be affected over the seven days of action, but each school will be affected for a maximum of only four days. Is the strike about pay and what will happen to the pupils, like have they prepared extra school work for them? Many parents arent happy about it, as some have to take time of work and stay at home. Yes they should have the right. But on Meridian TV tonight the offer is 5% and 9% for new teachers. How much do they want. Depends what they are striking for? What reason did they give to justify strike action when they balloted the union? part of it is they want the 5% payrise to be funded by the govt not taken from the schools budgets further reducing the moneys head teachers have to spend per pupil . There's also the issue of pay erosion due to inflation over time. Given inflation running at 10%, a pay offer of 5% represents a real-terms pay-cut of 5%. So what's actually happening is this year teachers' pay was cut by 5%. And this isn't the first time this has happened. Since 2010, teachers' pay has dropped by an average of 13% as a result of below-inflation pay awards. Would some numbers help? New teachers first, as the government is making much hay over their 9% increase, claiming they're pushing their salary up to £30,000. In 2009-2010 (the first year of Tories), new teacher salary was £21,500. Adjusted for inflation to today, that would represent £31,500. Notice that's less than the 'generous' increase from our 'caring' overlords? For experienced teachers, those numbers are even worse, with a teacher like myself (teaching since 2009 here) being over £6,000 per year worse off than I should be if my pay had matched inflation. This is not about a pay 'rise', it's about not wanting to constantly have our pay cut." Why should your pay match inflation? Nobody else's pay matches inflation. People need to perform to get pay rises or promotions. | |||
"Yes, of course they should. I heard on the news that this strike is the biggest one for many years. Today teachers are going on strike and it will last for 4 days, the union estimates that 23,400 schools will be affected over the seven days of action, but each school will be affected for a maximum of only four days. Is the strike about pay and what will happen to the pupils, like have they prepared extra school work for them? Many parents arent happy about it, as some have to take time of work and stay at home. Yes they should have the right. But on Meridian TV tonight the offer is 5% and 9% for new teachers. How much do they want. Depends what they are striking for? What reason did they give to justify strike action when they balloted the union? part of it is they want the 5% payrise to be funded by the govt not taken from the schools budgets further reducing the moneys head teachers have to spend per pupil . There's also the issue of pay erosion due to inflation over time. Given inflation running at 10%, a pay offer of 5% represents a real-terms pay-cut of 5%. So what's actually happening is this year teachers' pay was cut by 5%. And this isn't the first time this has happened. Since 2010, teachers' pay has dropped by an average of 13% as a result of below-inflation pay awards. Would some numbers help? New teachers first, as the government is making much hay over their 9% increase, claiming they're pushing their salary up to £30,000. In 2009-2010 (the first year of Tories), new teacher salary was £21,500. Adjusted for inflation to today, that would represent £31,500. Notice that's less than the 'generous' increase from our 'caring' overlords? For experienced teachers, those numbers are even worse, with a teacher like myself (teaching since 2009 here) being over £6,000 per year worse off than I should be if my pay had matched inflation. This is not about a pay 'rise', it's about not wanting to constantly have our pay cut. Why should your pay match inflation? Nobody else's pay matches inflation. People need to perform to get pay rises or promotions. " A few issues here... First: teachers generally do perform. Standards in education in general have never been so high. I've been teaching for long enough to see how much improvement there has been in education, and how much more teachers are called upon to do than we were a decade ago. Anyone who says otherwise is flat-out lying, or is just ignorant. Second: a number of studies have shown that countries where teachers are paid more, tend to have better grades and student education improves. Simgapore and Finland are examples of this, deliberately recruiting the best and paying them commensurately higher ends up creating a more skilled workforce. In short; if you want teachers to perform, you need to offer higher wages to attract the best qualified candidates. At present, teacher recruitment is low, and we're seeing increasing amounts of unqualified teachers being used. You pay peanuts, you get monkeys. | |||
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"Yes, of course they should. I heard on the news that this strike is the biggest one for many years. Today teachers are going on strike and it will last for 4 days, the union estimates that 23,400 schools will be affected over the seven days of action, but each school will be affected for a maximum of only four days. Is the strike about pay and what will happen to the pupils, like have they prepared extra school work for them? Many parents arent happy about it, as some have to take time of work and stay at home. Yes they should have the right. But on Meridian TV tonight the offer is 5% and 9% for new teachers. How much do they want. Depends what they are striking for? What reason did they give to justify strike action when they balloted the union? part of it is they want the 5% payrise to be funded by the govt not taken from the schools budgets further reducing the moneys head teachers have to spend per pupil . There's also the issue of pay erosion due to inflation over time. Given inflation running at 10%, a pay offer of 5% represents a real-terms pay-cut of 5%. So what's actually happening is this year teachers' pay was cut by 5%. And this isn't the first time this has happened. Since 2010, teachers' pay has dropped by an average of 13% as a result of below-inflation pay awards. Would some numbers help? New teachers first, as the government is making much hay over their 9% increase, claiming they're pushing their salary up to £30,000. In 2009-2010 (the first year of Tories), new teacher salary was £21,500. Adjusted for inflation to today, that would represent £31,500. Notice that's less than the 'generous' increase from our 'caring' overlords? For experienced teachers, those numbers are even worse, with a teacher like myself (teaching since 2009 here) being over £6,000 per year worse off than I should be if my pay had matched inflation. This is not about a pay 'rise', it's about not wanting to constantly have our pay cut. Why should your pay match inflation? Nobody else's pay matches inflation. People need to perform to get pay rises or promotions. " Senior Teachers salaries have fallen by 13 % in real terms since 2010 Middle ranked teachers by 9-10% New starters have fallen by 5 % | |||
"I know there is more to it than this... But it's a part of the story and its relevant. Teachers in England are among the highest paid for the fewest hours in Europe and the developed world, analysis has found ahead of a mass walkout over pay. Data published by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) show that average salaries for experienced teachers in England are higher than in countries including Sweden, Switzerland, France and Finland. However, teachers in most state schools in England are legally required to be at work and available for work for a maximum of 1,265 hours over 195 days of the year – lower than the requirements for any other developed nation which provided data to the OECD, except for Luxembourg. OECD research showed that for teachers with 15 years’ experience, average pay for primary school teachers in 2020, when adjusted to account for purchasing power in different countries, is $54,889 (£44,557) in England – higher than the OECD average of $49,245 (£39,976) and the EU average of $49,022 (£39,795" There is also the extremely generous pension provision that is more than double the average private sector that is never mentioned. | |||
"I know there is more to it than this... But it's a part of the story and its relevant. Teachers in England are among the highest paid for the fewest hours in Europe and the developed world, analysis has found ahead of a mass walkout over pay. Data published by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) show that average salaries for experienced teachers in England are higher than in countries including Sweden, Switzerland, France and Finland. However, teachers in most state schools in England are legally required to be at work and available for work for a maximum of 1,265 hours over 195 days of the year – lower than the requirements for any other developed nation which provided data to the OECD, except for Luxembourg. OECD research showed that for teachers with 15 years’ experience, average pay for primary school teachers in 2020, when adjusted to account for purchasing power in different countries, is $54,889 (£44,557) in England – higher than the OECD average of $49,245 (£39,976) and the EU average of $49,022 (£39,795" Not disputing any of that but additional context is surely required? ie what is the cost of living in all of these comparative countries? Cost of housing? Food? For example, people in the UK pay more than anyone in the world for electricity. Let me just say that again...people in the UK PAY MORE FOR ELECTRICITY THAN ANYONE IN THE WORLD! So levels of pay also need to reflect local conditions right? | |||
"I know there is more to it than this... But it's a part of the story and its relevant. Teachers in England are among the highest paid for the fewest hours in Europe and the developed world, analysis has found ahead of a mass walkout over pay. Data published by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) show that average salaries for experienced teachers in England are higher than in countries including Sweden, Switzerland, France and Finland. However, teachers in most state schools in England are legally required to be at work and available for work for a maximum of 1,265 hours over 195 days of the year – lower than the requirements for any other developed nation which provided data to the OECD, except for Luxembourg. OECD research showed that for teachers with 15 years’ experience, average pay for primary school teachers in 2020, when adjusted to account for purchasing power in different countries, is $54,889 (£44,557) in England – higher than the OECD average of $49,245 (£39,976) and the EU average of $49,022 (£39,795 There is also the extremely generous pension provision that is more than double the average private sector that is never mentioned." So private sector pensions need to be better then right? | |||
"I know there is more to it than this... But it's a part of the story and its relevant. Teachers in England are among the highest paid for the fewest hours in Europe and the developed world, analysis has found ahead of a mass walkout over pay. Data published by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) show that average salaries for experienced teachers in England are higher than in countries including Sweden, Switzerland, France and Finland. However, teachers in most state schools in England are legally required to be at work and available for work for a maximum of 1,265 hours over 195 days of the year – lower than the requirements for any other developed nation which provided data to the OECD, except for Luxembourg. OECD research showed that for teachers with 15 years’ experience, average pay for primary school teachers in 2020, when adjusted to account for purchasing power in different countries, is $54,889 (£44,557) in England – higher than the OECD average of $49,245 (£39,976) and the EU average of $49,022 (£39,795 There is also the extremely generous pension provision that is more than double the average private sector that is never mentioned." Teachers can earn 30% more in the private sector , that is why there is such a poor retention rate, as a tax payer I don’t want to pay to train a teacher for them to then go and work in a private school | |||
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"I know there is more to it than this... But it's a part of the story and its relevant. Teachers in England are among the highest paid for the fewest hours in Europe and the developed world, analysis has found ahead of a mass walkout over pay. Data published by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) show that average salaries for experienced teachers in England are higher than in countries including Sweden, Switzerland, France and Finland. However, teachers in most state schools in England are legally required to be at work and available for work for a maximum of 1,265 hours over 195 days of the year – lower than the requirements for any other developed nation which provided data to the OECD, except for Luxembourg. OECD research showed that for teachers with 15 years’ experience, average pay for primary school teachers in 2020, when adjusted to account for purchasing power in different countries, is $54,889 (£44,557) in England – higher than the OECD average of $49,245 (£39,976) and the EU average of $49,022 (£39,795 There is also the extremely generous pension provision that is more than double the average private sector that is never mentioned. Teachers can earn 30% more in the private sector , that is why there is such a poor retention rate, as a tax payer I don’t want to pay to train a teacher for them to then go and work in a private school "That's not the only difference though is it? Quality of work. Hours. Pension. Sackable. Like in any industry or career. The best tend to move to the best package. I work in both private and state schools. There's a very different culture. In the ones I have seen anyway. Obviously can't speak to all of them. I only posted the above as I was under the impression, having listened to some news, that our teachers were poorly paid. And the above would seem to suggest they are quite well paid compared to the rest. Now... Should they be paid better? The better teachers probably should be yes. Getting our kids education right is the most important thing we can do for them (and us when they are looking after us) | |||
"I know there is more to it than this... But it's a part of the story and its relevant. Teachers in England are among the highest paid for the fewest hours in Europe and the developed world, analysis has found ahead of a mass walkout over pay. Data published by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) show that average salaries for experienced teachers in England are higher than in countries including Sweden, Switzerland, France and Finland. However, teachers in most state schools in England are legally required to be at work and available for work for a maximum of 1,265 hours over 195 days of the year – lower than the requirements for any other developed nation which provided data to the OECD, except for Luxembourg. OECD research showed that for teachers with 15 years’ experience, average pay for primary school teachers in 2020, when adjusted to account for purchasing power in different countries, is $54,889 (£44,557) in England – higher than the OECD average of $49,245 (£39,976) and the EU average of $49,022 (£39,795 Not disputing any of that but additional context is surely required? ie what is the cost of living in all of these comparative countries? Cost of housing? Food? For example, people in the UK pay more than anyone in the world for electricity. Let me just say that again...people in the UK PAY MORE FOR ELECTRICITY THAN ANYONE IN THE WORLD! So levels of pay also need to reflect local conditions right?" Yea why shouldn't teachers be as poor as everyone else. We can't expect the million nares and Billionnnares to contribute so the teachers should get used to being poorer. These millionaires and billionares might we need them more than teachers and nurses. COVID PROVED THAT ..... | |||
"I know there is more to it than this... But it's a part of the story and its relevant. Teachers in England are among the highest paid for the fewest hours in Europe and the developed world, analysis has found ahead of a mass walkout over pay. Data published by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) show that average salaries for experienced teachers in England are higher than in countries including Sweden, Switzerland, France and Finland. However, teachers in most state schools in England are legally required to be at work and available for work for a maximum of 1,265 hours over 195 days of the year – lower than the requirements for any other developed nation which provided data to the OECD, except for Luxembourg. OECD research showed that for teachers with 15 years’ experience, average pay for primary school teachers in 2020, when adjusted to account for purchasing power in different countries, is $54,889 (£44,557) in England – higher than the OECD average of $49,245 (£39,976) and the EU average of $49,022 (£39,795 There is also the extremely generous pension provision that is more than double the average private sector that is never mentioned. So private sector pensions need to be better then right?" Possibly. But the point is when comparing packages. You need to compare like with like. The whole package with tho whole package and the whole hours with the whole hours and the whole quality with the whole quality. You can't cherry pick a headline number. | |||
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"Yes, of course they should. I heard on the news that this strike is the biggest one for many years. Today teachers are going on strike and it will last for 4 days, the union estimates that 23,400 schools will be affected over the seven days of action, but each school will be affected for a maximum of only four days. Is the strike about pay and what will happen to the pupils, like have they prepared extra school work for them? Many parents arent happy about it, as some have to take time of work and stay at home. Yes they should have the right. But on Meridian TV tonight the offer is 5% and 9% for new teachers. How much do they want. Depends what they are striking for? What reason did they give to justify strike action when they balloted the union? part of it is they want the 5% payrise to be funded by the govt not taken from the schools budgets further reducing the moneys head teachers have to spend per pupil . There's also the issue of pay erosion due to inflation over time. Given inflation running at 10%, a pay offer of 5% represents a real-terms pay-cut of 5%. So what's actually happening is this year teachers' pay was cut by 5%. And this isn't the first time this has happened. Since 2010, teachers' pay has dropped by an average of 13% as a result of below-inflation pay awards. Would some numbers help? New teachers first, as the government is making much hay over their 9% increase, claiming they're pushing their salary up to £30,000. In 2009-2010 (the first year of Tories), new teacher salary was £21,500. Adjusted for inflation to today, that would represent £31,500. Notice that's less than the 'generous' increase from our 'caring' overlords? For experienced teachers, those numbers are even worse, with a teacher like myself (teaching since 2009 here) being over £6,000 per year worse off than I should be if my pay had matched inflation. This is not about a pay 'rise', it's about not wanting to constantly have our pay cut. Why should your pay match inflation? Nobody else's pay matches inflation. People need to perform to get pay rises or promotions. Senior Teachers salaries have fallen by 13 % in real terms since 2010 Middle ranked teachers by 9-10% New starters have fallen by 5 % "Not sure what your point is? How does that compare with our salaries.? Mine hasn't kept pace with inflation. | |||
"I know there is more to it than this... But it's a part of the story and its relevant. Teachers in England are among the highest paid for the fewest hours in Europe and the developed world, analysis has found ahead of a mass walkout over pay. Data published by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) show that average salaries for experienced teachers in England are higher than in countries including Sweden, Switzerland, France and Finland. However, teachers in most state schools in England are legally required to be at work and available for work for a maximum of 1,265 hours over 195 days of the year – lower than the requirements for any other developed nation which provided data to the OECD, except for Luxembourg. OECD research showed that for teachers with 15 years’ experience, average pay for primary school teachers in 2020, when adjusted to account for purchasing power in different countries, is $54,889 (£44,557) in England – higher than the OECD average of $49,245 (£39,976) and the EU average of $49,022 (£39,795 Not disputing any of that but additional context is surely required? ie what is the cost of living in all of these comparative countries? Cost of housing? Food? For example, people in the UK pay more than anyone in the world for electricity. Let me just say that again...people in the UK PAY MORE FOR ELECTRICITY THAN ANYONE IN THE WORLD! So levels of pay also need to reflect local conditions right?" Not sure they need to reflect it. But yes when making comparisons with other countries its very relevant what things like cost of living and average salary and minimum wage etc are. Not sure if this link is permitted but guess we will find out... There's some good comparatives here.. Misses out the UK but has the rest of Europe and some relevant details. https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/01/24/teachers-pay-which-countries-pay-the-most-and-the-least-in-europe | |||
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"Every work field should be on strike atm, cost of living up national minimum wage ain't " If a significant part of the RPI increases is down to wage inflation, then surely, if people keep getting wage increases to match or beat inflation, then inflation will continue to rise 'ad infinitum'? | |||
"Every work field should be on strike atm, cost of living up national minimum wage ain't If a significant part of the RPI increases is down to wage inflation, then surely, if people keep getting wage increases to match or beat inflation, then inflation will continue to rise 'ad infinitum'? " Unfortunately this is only partially accurate. The current very high UK inflation rate is just the tip of an iceberg of inflation we've seen over a decade of Tory government. It has very little to do with wage raises, and much more to do with "demand-pull" issues. Demand-pull is where inflation increases as prices of goods and services become scarce, so prices rise. The two biggest drivers of inflation in that time have been increases in food and housing costs (the latter being the biggest force). Both of those increases are being driven by scarcity of those resources. In short, because we have a Tory government that has allowed the housing market to get ever more expensive, without ever building social housing (in fact they actively try to sell off social housing), they have fueled a decade of high inflation. The rise in food prices is tied to Brexit (aka the elephant in the room), which has damaged UK trade by 40bn, and increased inflation massively by increasing business's costs, leading to the second biggest driver of inflation: "cost-push" inflation. Cost-push is where businesses pay more for raw materials and other costs. Businesses then inevitably pass on this to the consumer by increasing prices. Higher prices = higher inflation. There are some who will claim the reverse (including Jeremy Cunt in his nauseating Starfucks advert), but in practice, the big businesses are using temporary cost increases as excuses to price gouge and increase profits. As proof, just look at Shell, who just announced 32billion profits. That's mostly come from the increase in your energy bills, despite wholesale gas prices (i.e. their costs) dropping recently. So there you have it. Mini-lecture over. Raising nurses and teachers pay won't raise inflation. What will raise inflation is Tory policy. | |||
"Every work field should be on strike atm, cost of living up national minimum wage ain't If a significant part of the RPI increases is down to wage inflation, then surely, if people keep getting wage increases to match or beat inflation, then inflation will continue to rise 'ad infinitum'? Unfortunately this is only partially accurate. The current very high UK inflation rate is just the tip of an iceberg of inflation we've seen over a decade of Tory government. It has very little to do with wage raises, and much more to do with "demand-pull" issues. Demand-pull is where inflation increases as prices of goods and services become scarce, so prices rise. The two biggest drivers of inflation in that time have been increases in food and housing costs (the latter being the biggest force). Both of those increases are being driven by scarcity of those resources. In short, because we have a Tory government that has allowed the housing market to get ever more expensive, without ever building social housing (in fact they actively try to sell off social housing), they have fueled a decade of high inflation. The rise in food prices is tied to Brexit (aka the elephant in the room), which has damaged UK trade by 40bn, and increased inflation massively by increasing business's costs, leading to the second biggest driver of inflation: "cost-push" inflation. Cost-push is where businesses pay more for raw materials and other costs. Businesses then inevitably pass on this to the consumer by increasing prices. Higher prices = higher inflation. There are some who will claim the reverse (including Jeremy Cunt in his nauseating Starfucks advert), but in practice, the big businesses are using temporary cost increases as excuses to price gouge and increase profits. As proof, just look at Shell, who just announced 32billion profits. That's mostly come from the increase in your energy bills, despite wholesale gas prices (i.e. their costs) dropping recently. So there you have it. Mini-lecture over. Raising nurses and teachers pay won't raise inflation. What will raise inflation is Tory policy." Great explanation (although I think UK GDP is taking a £100bn hit a year from Brexit, the £40bn is lost tax revenue to HMT). The actual drivers of inflation are also being ignored by the Bank of England with their interest rises! Especially as they now expect inflation to fall. However, you are wasting your time with some on here (not Siman who you are replying to) aa they have totally swallowed the high wage myth. | |||
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"Today, it is the last day of the strike, how do you think it had gone? "It's been great. Skiing was awesome. | |||
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"Absolutely. As should other public sector workers. Why only public sector workers.? What about self employed? Or private sector? " Self-employed?
Strike against yourself?
Won't need ACAS to broker a deal. | |||
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"Every work field should be on strike atm, cost of living up national minimum wage ain't If a significant part of the RPI increases is down to wage inflation, then surely, if people keep getting wage increases to match or beat inflation, then inflation will continue to rise 'ad infinitum'? Unfortunately this is only partially accurate. The current very high UK inflation rate is just the tip of an iceberg of inflation we've seen over a decade of Tory government. It has very little to do with wage raises, and much more to do with "demand-pull" issues. Demand-pull is where inflation increases as prices of goods and services become scarce, so prices rise. The two biggest drivers of inflation in that time have been increases in food and housing costs (the latter being the biggest force). Both of those increases are being driven by scarcity of those resources. In short, because we have a Tory government that has allowed the housing market to get ever more expensive, without ever building social housing (in fact they actively try to sell off social housing), they have fueled a decade of high inflation. The rise in food prices is tied to Brexit (aka the elephant in the room), which has damaged UK trade by 40bn, and increased inflation massively by increasing business's costs, leading to the second biggest driver of inflation: "cost-push" inflation. Cost-push is where businesses pay more for raw materials and other costs. Businesses then inevitably pass on this to the consumer by increasing prices. Higher prices = higher inflation. There are some who will claim the reverse (including Jeremy Cunt in his nauseating Starfucks advert), but in practice, the big businesses are using temporary cost increases as excuses to price gouge and increase profits. As proof, just look at Shell, who just announced 32billion profits. That's mostly come from the increase in your energy bills, despite wholesale gas prices (i.e. their costs) dropping recently. So there you have it. Mini-lecture over. Raising nurses and teachers pay won't raise inflation. What will raise inflation is Tory policy." Thank you. We have some knowledgeable folk on fab, not just a bunch of cocks. | |||
"Today, it is the last day of the strike, how do you think it had gone?
It's been great. Skiing was awesome. "That is good | |||
