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Brexit isn’t safe
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By *oo hot OP Couple 35 weeks ago
North West |
I keep seeing this a lot - as in “Brexit isn’t safe under Labour” or “Brexit isn’t safe with Starmer.”
What does it mean?
Surlely Brexit isn’t safe as long as it remains shit? If it was any good it would be inherently safe and no-one would be talking about it. |
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By (user no longer on site) 35 weeks ago
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It was a phrase I saw regularly on social media in the run up to the 2019 election, where I guess it made sense to your average or garden brexiter.
Not seen it since tbf. |
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"I keep seeing this a lot - as in “Brexit isn’t safe under Labour” or “Brexit isn’t safe with Starmer.”
What does it mean?
Surlely Brexit isn’t safe as long as it remains shit? If it was any good it would be inherently safe and no-one would be talking about it."
I dont thinknits sage with rishi.
We've seen him fold on the Windsor framework.
I want divergence from e.u not equivalence.
Indont trust Westminster to enact anything that truly separate us from the e.u given how many remainer mps there are.
Which is why there needs to be a clear out of old mps that won't stand on manifestos they wont honour |
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"I keep seeing this a lot - as in “Brexit isn’t safe under Labour” or “Brexit isn’t safe with Starmer.”
What does it mean?
Surlely Brexit isn’t safe as long as it remains shit? If it was any good it would be inherently safe and no-one would be talking about it.
I dont thinknits sage with rishi.
We've seen him fold on the Windsor framework.
I want divergence from e.u not equivalence.
Indont trust Westminster to enact anything that truly separate us from the e.u given how many remainer mps there are.
Which is why there needs to be a clear out of old mps that won't stand on manifestos they wont honour"
Yes clear out anyone who expressed dissent. Good idea.  |
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By (user no longer on site) 35 weeks ago
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"I keep seeing this a lot - as in “Brexit isn’t safe under Labour” or “Brexit isn’t safe with Starmer.”
What does it mean?
Surlely Brexit isn’t safe as long as it remains shit? If it was any good it would be inherently safe and no-one would be talking about it.
I dont thinknits sage with rishi.
We've seen him fold on the Windsor framework.
I want divergence from e.u not equivalence.
Indont trust Westminster to enact anything that truly separate us from the e.u given how many remainer mps there are.
Which is why there needs to be a clear out of old mps that won't stand on manifestos they wont honour
Yes clear out anyone who expressed dissent. Good idea. "
It’s what Johnson tried in 2019 |
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The only way brexit isn't "safe" is if someone puts us back onto the EU.
However that would be a manifesto level policy. So I'd argue democracy would have been followed.
The referendum determined IF we should leave. The subsequent GEs is how we should leave. The largest minority said they preferred Tories. FPTP gave them a huge majority to deliver.
If we subsequently decided that labour is the right government to lead, part of that is to support their "how". If you don't like it, and the how we brexit is important, vote elsewhere. But don't complain about democracy or will of the people if you aren't in the winning side. |
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By *yth11Couple 35 weeks ago
newark |
"I keep seeing this a lot - as in “Brexit isn’t safe under Labour” or “Brexit isn’t safe with Starmer.”
What does it mean?
Surlely Brexit isn’t safe as long as it remains shit? If it was any good it would be inherently safe and no-one would be talking about it."
Brexit is pretty safe at least for about 10 years as rejoining has too many issues but the type of brexit is up for grabs. |
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"I keep seeing this a lot - as in “Brexit isn’t safe under Labour” or “Brexit isn’t safe with Starmer.”
What does it mean?
Surlely Brexit isn’t safe as long as it remains shit? If it was any good it would be inherently safe and no-one would be talking about it.
I dont thinknits sage with rishi.
We've seen him fold on the Windsor framework.
I want divergence from e.u not equivalence.
Indont trust Westminster to enact anything that truly separate us from the e.u given how many remainer mps there are.
Which is why there needs to be a clear out of old mps that won't stand on manifestos they wont honour
Yes clear out anyone who expressed dissent. Good idea. "
Did you miss the bit on not honouring manifestos? |
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"I keep seeing this a lot - as in “Brexit isn’t safe under Labour” or “Brexit isn’t safe with Starmer.”
What does it mean?
Surlely Brexit isn’t safe as long as it remains shit? If it was any good it would be inherently safe and no-one would be talking about it.
I dont thinknits sage with rishi.
We've seen him fold on the Windsor framework.
I want divergence from e.u not equivalence.
Indont trust Westminster to enact anything that truly separate us from the e.u given how many remainer mps there are.
Which is why there needs to be a clear out of old mps that won't stand on manifestos they wont honour
Yes clear out anyone who expressed dissent. Good idea.
Did you miss the bit on not honouring manifestos?"
which bits aren't they honouring ? |
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"I keep seeing this a lot - as in “Brexit isn’t safe under Labour” or “Brexit isn’t safe with Starmer.”
What does it mean?
Surlely Brexit isn’t safe as long as it remains shit? If it was any good it would be inherently safe and no-one would be talking about it.
I dont thinknits sage with rishi.
We've seen him fold on the Windsor framework.
I want divergence from e.u not equivalence.
Indont trust Westminster to enact anything that truly separate us from the e.u given how many remainer mps there are.
Which is why there needs to be a clear out of old mps that won't stand on manifestos they wont honour
Yes clear out anyone who expressed dissent. Good idea.
Did you miss the bit on not honouring manifestos?"
Brexit has happened. No one has gone against their manifesto in this regard.
You appear to be upset that there are some MPs who voted against brexit who are still serving. |
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"I keep seeing this a lot - as in “Brexit isn’t safe under Labour” or “Brexit isn’t safe with Starmer.”
What does it mean?
Surlely Brexit isn’t safe as long as it remains shit? If it was any good it would be inherently safe and no-one would be talking about it.
I dont thinknits sage with rishi.
We've seen him fold on the Windsor framework.
I want divergence from e.u not equivalence.
Indont trust Westminster to enact anything that truly separate us from the e.u given how many remainer mps there are.
Which is why there needs to be a clear out of old mps that won't stand on manifestos they wont honour"
You do realise that Brexit happened? Also Boris cleared out loads of MPs in the way you mentioned in 2019...that didn't go well. |
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By (user no longer on site) 35 weeks ago
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"I keep seeing this a lot - as in “Brexit isn’t safe under Labour” or “Brexit isn’t safe with Starmer.”
What does it mean?
Surlely Brexit isn’t safe as long as it remains shit? If it was any good it would be inherently safe and no-one would be talking about it.
I dont thinknits sage with rishi.
We've seen him fold on the Windsor framework.
I want divergence from e.u not equivalence.
Indont trust Westminster to enact anything that truly separate us from the e.u given how many remainer mps there are.
Which is why there needs to be a clear out of old mps that won't stand on manifestos they wont honour"
Rishi is a sage. Thats a new one to me. Is that the real reason he's gone to India, under the guise of G20 meeting, to become a yogi.. |
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"I keep seeing this a lot - as in “Brexit isn’t safe under Labour” or “Brexit isn’t safe with Starmer.”
What does it mean?
Surlely Brexit isn’t safe as long as it remains shit? If it was any good it would be inherently safe and no-one would be talking about it.
Brexit is pretty safe at least for about 10 years as rejoining has too many issues but the type of brexit is up for grabs."
If there is sufficient will amongst the electorate and a party has a clear policy to rejoin then it is possible brexit could be reversed. I don't see that happening any time soon if ever but you never know |
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Haven’t been on here for a while but glad to see we are still churning out Brexit tales 
Oh and it’s always an interesting read when people start blaming the old and aged MPs for not honouring manifesto commitments and saying they should be removed for not doing so. That sounds very undemocratic to me….in fact it positively smacks of totalitarianism….Stalin would be proud of you |
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By *bernathCouple 34 weeks ago
Gloucestershire |
Why bother for, whoever is in charge they cannot fix this problem, sure everyone has an opinion. But everyone isn’t in charge.
How about this, just watch what happens find a cardboard box, stick your head in it, and scream your lamentations into it, because no one cares anymore. |
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How would joining the EU lower fuel and food costs? They have high costs too. Oh, and same goes for the taxes, how would it lower them?
You see, funnily enough. When you challenge brainwashed activists like this they have very little to respond with. Except parrot nonsense like 'it's all Brexits fault squaaaark!'  |
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"How would joining the EU lower fuel and food costs? They have high costs too. Oh, and same goes for the taxes, how would it lower them?
You see, funnily enough. When you challenge brainwashed activists like this they have very little to respond with. Except parrot nonsense like 'it's all Brexits fault squaaaark!' "
and it's not as tho we have extra checks either...
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"How would joining the EU lower fuel and food costs? They have high costs too. Oh, and same goes for the taxes, how would it lower them?
You see, funnily enough. When you challenge brainwashed activists like this they have very little to respond with. Except parrot nonsense like 'it's all Brexits fault squaaaark!' "
Rejoining the EU definitely wouldn't undo the majority of the damage done by brexit. In my opinion.
There should be an exercise to look into what the best option going forward would be. However I fully expect more of the same uninformed bullshit. Look at those foreigners over there in that small boat. |
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By *lfasoCouple 34 weeks ago
South East |
"How would joining the EU lower fuel and food costs? They have high costs too. Oh, and same goes for the taxes, how would it lower them?
You see, funnily enough. When you challenge brainwashed activists like this they have very little to respond with. Except parrot nonsense like 'it's all Brexits fault squaaaark!'
Rejoining the EU definitely wouldn't undo the majority of the damage done by brexit. In my opinion.
There should be an exercise to look into what the best option going forward would be. However I fully expect more of the same uninformed bullshit. Look at those foreigners over there in that small boat."
Risking their lives to leave the EU and reach England. You need to get over to France and warn them how catastrophic life is in countries outside the EU. |
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"I keep seeing this a lot - as in “Brexit isn’t safe under Labour” or “Brexit isn’t safe with Starmer.”
What does it mean?
Surlely Brexit isn’t safe as long as it remains shit? If it was any good it would be inherently safe and no-one would be talking about it.
I dont thinknits sage with rishi.
We've seen him fold on the Windsor framework.
I want divergence from e.u not equivalence.
Indont trust Westminster to enact anything that truly separate us from the e.u given how many remainer mps there are.
Which is why there needs to be a clear out of old mps that won't stand on manifestos they wont honour
Yes clear out anyone who expressed dissent. Good idea.
Did you miss the bit on not honouring manifestos?which bits aren't they honouring ?"
Many back the surrender bill and refused to allow certain brexits to occurr.
They tried to overturn brexit...did we all just miss when parliament carried on over the weekend and then why TM stepped down?
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"I keep seeing this a lot - as in “Brexit isn’t safe under Labour” or “Brexit isn’t safe with Starmer.”
What does it mean?
Surlely Brexit isn’t safe as long as it remains shit? If it was any good it would be inherently safe and no-one would be talking about it.
I dont thinknits sage with rishi.
We've seen him fold on the Windsor framework.
I want divergence from e.u not equivalence.
Indont trust Westminster to enact anything that truly separate us from the e.u given how many remainer mps there are.
Which is why there needs to be a clear out of old mps that won't stand on manifestos they wont honour
Yes clear out anyone who expressed dissent. Good idea.
Did you miss the bit on not honouring manifestos?which bits aren't they honouring ?
Many back the surrender bill and refused to allow certain brexits to occurr.
They tried to overturn brexit...did we all just miss when parliament carried on over the weekend and then why TM stepped down?
"
the "surrender bill" was pre BJ premiership right?
So not part of his manifesto.
And there has been a GE to do that clear out.
And which other certain brexits were manifesto'd? |
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"Brexit was delivered by parliament. Unarguable."
You're clearly new here. There have been plenty of people in these forums claiming that Brexit isn't done yet, and that the government should be ashamed of themselves for failing to sort it out.
Mind you those people do seem to have been quiet recently. |
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"How would joining the EU lower fuel and food costs? They have high costs too. Oh, and same goes for the taxes, how would it lower them?
You see, funnily enough. When you challenge brainwashed activists like this they have very little to respond with. Except parrot nonsense like 'it's all Brexits fault squaaaark!'
Rejoining the EU definitely wouldn't undo the majority of the damage done by brexit. In my opinion.
There should be an exercise to look into what the best option going forward would be. However I fully expect more of the same uninformed bullshit. Look at those foreigners over there in that small boat.
Risking their lives to leave the EU and reach England. You need to get over to France and warn them how catastrophic life is in countries outside the EU. "
Not sure I understand your point, or why you're suggesting I go to France. Maybe you could elaborate? |
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"I keep seeing this a lot - as in “Brexit isn’t safe under Labour” or “Brexit isn’t safe with Starmer.”
What does it mean?
Surlely Brexit isn’t safe as long as it remains shit? If it was any good it would be inherently safe and no-one would be talking about it.
I dont thinknits sage with rishi.
We've seen him fold on the Windsor framework.
I want divergence from e.u not equivalence.
Indont trust Westminster to enact anything that truly separate us from the e.u given how many remainer mps there are.
Which is why there needs to be a clear out of old mps that won't stand on manifestos they wont honour
Yes clear out anyone who expressed dissent. Good idea.
Did you miss the bit on not honouring manifestos?which bits aren't they honouring ?
Many back the surrender bill and refused to allow certain brexits to occurr.
They tried to overturn brexit...did we all just miss when parliament carried on over the weekend and then why TM stepped down?
"
Haven't heard of the "surrender bill", do you have any details?
Didn't see anyone trying to overturn brexit.
Haven't seen anyone not honouring the manifesto as you claimed.
Maybe you could explain? Because it sure looks like Brexit has happened as we're no longer in the EU. |
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By (user no longer on site) 34 weeks ago
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"Brexit was delivered by parliament. Unarguable.
You're clearly new here. There have been plenty of people in these forums claiming that Brexit isn't done yet, and that the government should be ashamed of themselves for failing to sort it out.
Mind you those people do seem to have been quiet recently."
Oh no, Brexit is definitely done. We left with exactly the kind of Brexit that the electorate asked for - one that would be negotiated by parliament. |
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By (user no longer on site) 34 weeks ago
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"Funny thing is that since Brexit there are more French biscuits and cakes in the shops and yet British fish has doubled in price. The latter is probably down to fuel prices but why the former?"
Brexit did the opposite of what was sold to the British fishing industry. It’s absolutely slaughtered it. |
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"Funny thing is that since Brexit there are more French biscuits and cakes in the shops and yet British fish has doubled in price. The latter is probably down to fuel prices but why the former?
Brexit did the opposite of what was sold to the British fishing industry. It’s absolutely slaughtered it."
True….and it should serve as a warning to any industry that’s on its arse….dont believe the hucksters unless they arrive with cash in their hands and a real plan for the future….oh wait a minute wasn’t that what the EU did in Cornwall and Wales etc? Poor buggers should have just sunk their boats and claimed the EU money while they could |
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"Funny thing is that since Brexit there are more French biscuits and cakes in the shops and yet British fish has doubled in price. The latter is probably down to fuel prices but why the former?
Brexit did the opposite of what was sold to the British fishing industry. It’s absolutely slaughtered it."
Sadly this was spelled out exactly what would happen, but people believed the nonsense over reel life information.
(Pun intended). |
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"I keep seeing this a lot - as in “Brexit isn’t safe under Labour” or “Brexit isn’t safe with Starmer.”
What does it mean?
Surlely Brexit isn’t safe as long as it remains shit? If it was any good it would be inherently safe and no-one would be talking about it.
I dont thinknits sage with rishi.
We've seen him fold on the Windsor framework.
I want divergence from e.u not equivalence.
Indont trust Westminster to enact anything that truly separate us from the e.u given how many remainer mps there are.
Which is why there needs to be a clear out of old mps that won't stand on manifestos they wont honour
Yes clear out anyone who expressed dissent. Good idea.
Did you miss the bit on not honouring manifestos?which bits aren't they honouring ?
Many back the surrender bill and refused to allow certain brexits to occurr.
They tried to overturn brexit...did we all just miss when parliament carried on over the weekend and then why TM stepped down?
the "surrender bill" was pre BJ premiership right?
So not part of his manifesto.
And there has been a GE to do that clear out.
And which other certain brexits were manifesto'd?"
Look at th TM manifesto |
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By *yth11Couple 34 weeks ago
newark |
"Funny thing is that since Brexit there are more French biscuits and cakes in the shops and yet British fish has doubled in price. The latter is probably down to fuel prices but why the former?
Brexit did the opposite of what was sold to the British fishing industry. It’s absolutely slaughtered it.
Sadly this was spelled out exactly what would happen, but people believed the nonsense over reel life information.
(Pun intended)."
The UK fishing industry mostly died in the 1970s and what was left at least in England was owned overseas.
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By *yth11Couple 34 weeks ago
newark |
"Funny thing is that since Brexit there are more French biscuits and cakes in the shops and yet British fish has doubled in price. The latter is probably down to fuel prices but why the former?"
About 80% of fish products sold in the UK are imported so unless it’s got GB on it I doubt it’s British. As for the former France has a fair bit of protection from energy price rise’s thanks to its nukes and it’s likely making its goods cheaper. |
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"I keep seeing this a lot - as in “Brexit isn’t safe under Labour” or “Brexit isn’t safe with Starmer.”
What does it mean?
Surlely Brexit isn’t safe as long as it remains shit? If it was any good it would be inherently safe and no-one would be talking about it.
I dont thinknits sage with rishi.
We've seen him fold on the Windsor framework.
I want divergence from e.u not equivalence.
Indont trust Westminster to enact anything that truly separate us from the e.u given how many remainer mps there are.
Which is why there needs to be a clear out of old mps that won't stand on manifestos they wont honour
Yes clear out anyone who expressed dissent. Good idea.
Did you miss the bit on not honouring manifestos?which bits aren't they honouring ?
Many back the surrender bill and refused to allow certain brexits to occurr.
They tried to overturn brexit...did we all just miss when parliament carried on over the weekend and then why TM stepped down?
the "surrender bill" was pre BJ premiership right?
So not part of his manifesto.
And there has been a GE to do that clear out.
And which other certain brexits were manifesto'd?
Look at th TM manifesto"
lazy.
But there's been a GE since the TM manifesto. You said there needs to be a clear out. That suggests you are talking about the current parliament. |
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Brexit has proven to be an unmitigated disaster, both economically and socially.
The vote leave prospectus was the biggest example of electoral fraud since the union's promises in Scotland's indy referendum.
"We didn't think we were voting for that".... Yes, buyers' regret has been considerable.
If a confirmatory vote were to be held now, (with the voters now including more pro-EU youngsters) as happened when we joined the EEC, who could argue with any confidence that we would still opt for the massive act of self-harm known as brexit? |
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"Brexit has proven to be an unmitigated disaster, both economically and socially."
Has it? Most estimates now are saying that the UK economy is down a couple of percent since Brexit. We also seem to be tracking close to EU countries, so it's not certain that the drop is entirely down to Brexit. But even if it was, is a 2% drop really "an unmitigated disaster"?
As for 'social harms', I really don't know what you mean by that.
"If a confirmatory vote were to be held now, (with the voters now including more pro-EU youngsters) as happened when we joined the EEC, who could argue with any confidence that we would still opt for the massive act of self-harm known as brexit?"
Again, "massive act of self-harm" would seem to be over-stating it somewhat. Also, you appear to be making the assumption that young people will definitely not change any of their opinions as they get older and wiser. |
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"Brexit has proven to be an unmitigated disaster, both economically and socially.
Has it? Most estimates now are saying that the UK economy is down a couple of percent since Brexit. We also seem to be tracking close to EU countries, so it's not certain that the drop is entirely down to Brexit. But even if it was, is a 2% drop really "an unmitigated disaster"?
As for 'social harms', I really don't know what you mean by that.
If a confirmatory vote were to be held now, (with the voters now including more pro-EU youngsters) as happened when we joined the EEC, who could argue with any confidence that we would still opt for the massive act of self-harm known as brexit?
Again, "massive act of self-harm" would seem to be over-stating it somewhat. Also, you appear to be making the assumption that young people will definitely not change any of their opinions as they get older and wiser."
From recent yougov surveys:
"'Bregret’ stands at highest level recorded to date"
"A majority of Britons (55%) say that, were the EU referendum taking place now, seven years after the original date, they would vote to Remain. Three in ten 31% say they would vote to Leave. This gives a headline voting intention of 64% to 36%."
"63% of Britons who consider Brexit to have been more of a failure than a success. Only 12% see it as more of a success, while 18% say it is neither a success nor a failure."
You can look up all the details on their site.
I know you can't always trust a survey. But these numbers are staggering. 12% of people still think Brexit is a success. Just let that sink in for a moment. |
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"Brexit has proven to be an unmitigated disaster, both economically and socially.
Has it? Most estimates now are saying that the UK economy is down a couple of percent since Brexit. We also seem to be tracking close to EU countries, so it's not certain that the drop is entirely down to Brexit. But even if it was, is a 2% drop really "an unmitigated disaster"?
As for 'social harms', I really don't know what you mean by that.
If a confirmatory vote were to be held now, (with the voters now including more pro-EU youngsters) as happened when we joined the EEC, who could argue with any confidence that we would still opt for the massive act of self-harm known as brexit?
Again, "massive act of self-harm" would seem to be over-stating it somewhat. Also, you appear to be making the assumption that young people will definitely not change any of their opinions as they get older and wiser.
From recent yougov surveys:
"'Bregret’ stands at highest level recorded to date"
"A majority of Britons (55%) say that, were the EU referendum taking place now, seven years after the original date, they would vote to Remain. Three in ten 31% say they would vote to Leave. This gives a headline voting intention of 64% to 36%."
"63% of Britons who consider Brexit to have been more of a failure than a success. Only 12% see it as more of a success, while 18% say it is neither a success nor a failure."
You can look up all the details on their site.
I know you can't always trust a survey. But these numbers are staggering. 12% of people still think Brexit is a success. Just let that sink in for a moment. "
I do wonder if when doing these surveys they out line we would become a full member and would have to except the euro and a EU army witch to me all makes sense. Each country paying for defence at the same proportion of gdp. |
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"Brexit has proven to be an unmitigated disaster, both economically and socially.
Has it? Most estimates now are saying that the UK economy is down a couple of percent since Brexit. We also seem to be tracking close to EU countries, so it's not certain that the drop is entirely down to Brexit. But even if it was, is a 2% drop really "an unmitigated disaster"?
As for 'social harms', I really don't know what you mean by that.
If a confirmatory vote were to be held now, (with the voters now including more pro-EU youngsters) as happened when we joined the EEC, who could argue with any confidence that we would still opt for the massive act of self-harm known as brexit?
Again, "massive act of self-harm" would seem to be over-stating it somewhat. Also, you appear to be making the assumption that young people will definitely not change any of their opinions as they get older and wiser.
From recent yougov surveys:
"'Bregret’ stands at highest level recorded to date"
"A majority of Britons (55%) say that, were the EU referendum taking place now, seven years after the original date, they would vote to Remain. Three in ten 31% say they would vote to Leave. This gives a headline voting intention of 64% to 36%."
"63% of Britons who consider Brexit to have been more of a failure than a success. Only 12% see it as more of a success, while 18% say it is neither a success nor a failure."
You can look up all the details on their site.
I know you can't always trust a survey. But these numbers are staggering. 12% of people still think Brexit is a success. Just let that sink in for a moment.
I do wonder if when doing these surveys they out line we would become a full member and would have to except the euro and a EU army witch to me all makes sense. Each country paying for defence at the same proportion of gdp."
What's wrong with being in the Euro?
The EU army doesn't exist.
I'm not saying I agree with rejoining btw. The headline figure is how many people still hanging onto the Brexit dream despite reality. |
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By (user no longer on site) 34 weeks ago
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"
Again, "massive act of self-harm" would seem to be over-stating it somewhat. Also, you appear to be making the assumption that young people will definitely not change any of their opinions as they get older and wiser."
Given that Brexit wasn’t about doing the smart thing - it was emotion, not rationality that led to the vote - getting older and wiser doesn’t necessarily mean people will switch to supporting separation from the EU.
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"Again, 'massive act of self-harm' would seem to be over-stating it somewhat. Also, you appear to be making the assumption that young people will definitely not change any of their opinions as they get older and wiser."
"Given that Brexit wasn’t about doing the smart thing - it was emotion, not rationality that led to the vote - getting older and wiser doesn’t necessarily mean people will switch to supporting separation from the EU."
I agree that there was a lot of emotion in the final campaign, on both sides, but the argument for Brexit has always been rational. Being in Europe means that we are limited to trading with Europe and its approved third countries. Being outside of Europe means that we can still trade with Europe, but can also trade with all the other countries in the world.
We can argue over whether the right decision was made, but you can't deny that there is a rational argument for Brexit.
So the question is, do young people support EU membership because they are inexperienced and haven't thought it through properly, or do they support the EU because they have different values to their elders and want a different world to live in? I don't know the answer, but I wouldn't be betting on the UK becoming more and more EU friendly just because old people are dying off. |
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"Again, 'massive act of self-harm' would seem to be over-stating it somewhat. Also, you appear to be making the assumption that young people will definitely not change any of their opinions as they get older and wiser.
Given that Brexit wasn’t about doing the smart thing - it was emotion, not rationality that led to the vote - getting older and wiser doesn’t necessarily mean people will switch to supporting separation from the EU.
I agree that there was a lot of emotion in the final campaign, on both sides, but the argument for Brexit has always been rational. Being in Europe means that we are limited to trading with Europe and its approved third countries. Being outside of Europe means that we can still trade with Europe, but can also trade with all the other countries in the world.
We can argue over whether the right decision was made, but you can't deny that there is a rational argument for Brexit.
So the question is, do young people support EU membership because they are inexperienced and haven't thought it through properly, or do they support the EU because they have different values to their elders and want a different world to live in? I don't know the answer, but I wouldn't be betting on the UK becoming more and more EU friendly just because old people are dying off."
Not many economists thought it was rational in the way you explain and most brexiteers didn't bother with an economic argument for long, concentrated mainly on sovereignty and immigration. |
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"Again, 'massive act of self-harm' would seem to be over-stating it somewhat. Also, you appear to be making the assumption that young people will definitely not change any of their opinions as they get older and wiser.
Given that Brexit wasn’t about doing the smart thing - it was emotion, not rationality that led to the vote - getting older and wiser doesn’t necessarily mean people will switch to supporting separation from the EU.
I agree that there was a lot of emotion in the final campaign, on both sides, but the argument for Brexit has always been rational. Being in Europe means that we are limited to trading with Europe and its approved third countries. Being outside of Europe means that we can still trade with Europe, but can also trade with all the other countries in the world.
We can argue over whether the right decision was made, but you can't deny that there is a rational argument for Brexit.
So the question is, do young people support EU membership because they are inexperienced and haven't thought it through properly, or do they support the EU because they have different values to their elders and want a different world to live in? I don't know the answer, but I wouldn't be betting on the UK becoming more and more EU friendly just because old people are dying off."
we could always trade with third countries. I assume you mean limited to how we trade (FTA etc).
I agree that this would be part of a rational argument. But we also need to factor in how many we expect to, in order to quantify this upside. |
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By (user no longer on site) 34 weeks ago
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"
I agree that there was a lot of emotion in the final campaign, on both sides, but the argument for Brexit has always been rational. Being in Europe means that we are limited to trading with Europe and its approved third countries. Being outside of Europe means that we can still trade with Europe, but can also trade with all the other countries in the world.
We can argue over whether the right decision was made, but you can't deny that there is a rational argument for Brexit.
So the question is, do young people support EU membership because they are inexperienced and haven't thought it through properly, or do they support the EU because they have different values to their elders and want a different world to live in? I don't know the answer, but I wouldn't be betting on the UK becoming more and more EU friendly just because old people are dying off."
We could always trade with the rest of the world. What Brexit did was allow us to strike FTA’s beyond the EU, in return for sacrificing a sweetheart deal with the bloc. It wasn’t rational because anyone with an ounce of economic sense knows that a relatively small nation (which is services based) isn’t going to have that much trade clout as an independent nation.
The idea that only the youth supported remain is also a myth. I’m fact the only age group who overwhelmingly backed leave were those 55+.
(Also as a side-note, the WW2 generation actually backed remain - “something something European peace and security”)
The trend since 2016 has been fairly consistent, showing increasing regret for voting to leave. I don’t see that reversing any time soon. Sadly we’ll not see a move to even EFTA anytime soon. It’ll be a generation at least before discussion really begins in earnest.
And then what will this have all been for? Absolutely nothing.
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"Not many economists thought it was rational in the way you explain and most brexiteers didn't bother with an economic argument for long, concentrated mainly on sovereignty and immigration."
Many economists thought that Remain would be the better option, but that doesn't mean the other argument isn't rational.
I agree that many people on the Leave side voted for other, less rational, reasons. But the same is true for many of those that voted Remain. At a wild guess, I'd say that 80% of the populace voted based on the news source they follow, or the uninformed opinions of their peer group. I don't think many people actually listened to the debates and made their own mind up. |
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"We could always trade with the rest of the world. What Brexit did was allow us to strike FTA’s beyond the EU, in return for sacrificing a sweetheart deal with the bloc. It wasn’t rational because anyone with an ounce of economic sense knows that a relatively small nation (which is services based) isn’t going to have that much trade clout as an independent nation."
You're mistaking 'rational' for 'correct'. The argument for Brexit was based on logic and economic sense. It may have been based on incorrect data, but that doesn't make it non-rational. What you have done is to weigh up the two sides, make your mind up, and then dismiss the opposing view as being foolish and nonsensical. You can't persuade others of your correctness if you don't understand why they think the way they do. |
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By (user no longer on site) 34 weeks ago
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"Not many economists thought it was rational in the way you explain and most brexiteers didn't bother with an economic argument for long, concentrated mainly on sovereignty and immigration.
Many economists thought that Remain would be the better option, but that doesn't mean the other argument isn't rational.
I agree that many people on the Leave side voted for other, less rational, reasons. But the same is true for many of those that voted Remain. At a wild guess, I'd say that 80% of the populace voted based on the news source they follow, or the uninformed opinions of their peer group. I don't think many people actually listened to the debates and made their own mind up."
I can only speak for myself. I did a fair bit of research on the topic, as by by own admission I had very little understanding of what the EU did. In my opinion, it became clear very very quickly that the idea of leaving was bonkers - it became easy to pick apart the arguments for leave. I was gobsmacked that Clegg and co did such an appalling job in the ‘debates’. And the lack of understanding on social media was telling too.
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By *irldnCouple 34 weeks ago
Brighton |
"Being in Europe means that we are limited to trading with Europe and its approved third countries. Being outside of Europe means that we can still trade with Europe, but can also trade with all the other countries in the world."
That statement is a bit misleading. It implies the UK could not trade with lots of countries in the World while a member of the EU (not sure if that is what you meant?). That simply isn’t true.
The UK could not cut it’s own Free Trade Agreements as the expectation was that EU members work together. The UK had to roll over c.40 FTAs that they had access to as part of the EU.
However, the UK traded with multiple countries that did not have agreements with the EU. Nobody was prevented from trading, just from trading on preferential terms. |
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By (user no longer on site) 34 weeks ago
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Remember that we’ve not even seen the full impact yet (and hopefully never will) as border checks get continually postponed (now into 2024).
It says something when we need to continually kick the cam down the road just to maintain current levels of supply disruption. |
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By (user no longer on site) 34 weeks ago
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"Intricate economic arguments were never going to win the Brexit vote. 90% of us don't understand economics, and what we do understand isn't enough to actually make a fully informed decision.
"
Agreed. Vote leave and Leave.EU did a fine campaigning job tbf. They knew the target audience, they knew what would win people over, and they were far better than remain on social media and targeted advertising. We can argue the legitimacy of their claims as infinitum, but they were effective |
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"Intricate economic arguments were never going to win the Brexit vote. 90% of us don't understand economics, and what we do understand isn't enough to actually make a fully informed decision.
Agreed. Vote leave and Leave.EU did a fine campaigning job tbf. They knew the target audience, they knew what would win people over, and they were far better than remain on social media and targeted advertising. We can argue the legitimacy of their claims as infinitum, but they were effective"
That's the thing, I'm of the belief that the Remain Team lost that vote, Leave didn't win it.
And now we have hatred, yes hatred, displayed towards those 'thick, racist' people who voted to Leave. The anger is misdirected. Tell the people who fucked it all up. |
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By (user no longer on site) 34 weeks ago
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"Intricate economic arguments were never going to win the Brexit vote. 90% of us don't understand economics, and what we do understand isn't enough to actually make a fully informed decision.
Agreed. Vote leave and Leave.EU did a fine campaigning job tbf. They knew the target audience, they knew what would win people over, and they were far better than remain on social media and targeted advertising. We can argue the legitimacy of their claims as infinitum, but they were effective
That's the thing, I'm of the belief that the Remain Team lost that vote, Leave didn't win it.
And now we have hatred, yes hatred, displayed towards those 'thick, racist' people who voted to Leave. The anger is misdirected. Tell the people who fucked it all up. "
I agree with blame the deceiver not the deceived, but we also have those who will ignore actual evidence because ‘we won, get over it’. Similarly those who refer to ‘remoaners’ as ‘traitors’ and ‘shills’
It’s by no means a one sided issue. |
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By (user no longer on site) 34 weeks ago
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Remember the guy in Romford (I think) shortly after the referendum wearing a t-shirt that said ‘we won, now send them back’
He’s a thick racist and should be described as such, I’m sure we can all agree |
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"Intricate economic arguments were never going to win the Brexit vote. 90% of us don't understand economics, and what we do understand isn't enough to actually make a fully informed decision.
Agreed. Vote leave and Leave.EU did a fine campaigning job tbf. They knew the target audience, they knew what would win people over, and they were far better than remain on social media and targeted advertising. We can argue the legitimacy of their claims as infinitum, but they were effective
That's the thing, I'm of the belief that the Remain Team lost that vote, Leave didn't win it.
And now we have hatred, yes hatred, displayed towards those 'thick, racist' people who voted to Leave. The anger is misdirected. Tell the people who fucked it all up.
I agree with blame the deceiver not the deceived, but we also have those who will ignore actual evidence because ‘we won, get over it’. Similarly those who refer to ‘remoaners’ as ‘traitors’ and ‘shills’
It’s by no means a one sided issue."
I agree it isn't one sided. I do believe there's a definite instigator though.
The thing with 'evidence' is its often not evidence. It's guesswork (forecasts), its presented in a way of 'we told you so' to then be adjusted or debunked later down the line when those guesses don't materialise.
I have never seen a remain voter say 'actually, it's not as bad as we predicted' just 'it's still fucking bad'. Those 2 are interchangeable and how you use words come across in a certain way to people you're trying to get to see your side. |
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"Remember the guy in Romford (I think) shortly after the referendum wearing a t-shirt that said ‘we won, now send them back’
He’s a thick racist and should be described as such, I’m sure we can all agree "
I don't remember him no. Although, that statement in itself isn't racist. |
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By (user no longer on site) 34 weeks ago
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"Remember the guy in Romford (I think) shortly after the referendum wearing a t-shirt that said ‘we won, now send them back’
He’s a thick racist and should be described as such, I’m sure we can all agree
I don't remember him no. Although, that statement in itself isn't racist. "
It was in the tabloids at the time.
And yeah, it really is. |
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"Remember the guy in Romford (I think) shortly after the referendum wearing a t-shirt that said ‘we won, now send them back’
He’s a thick racist and should be described as such, I’m sure we can all agree
I don't remember him no. Although, that statement in itself isn't racist.
It was in the tabloids at the time.
And yeah, it really is."
I have just done a search and found a few articles on this.
That t-shirt may be xenophobic, bigoted or racist.
Without knowing exactly what that man means by those words, you cannot say its racist. Doing so, actually doesn't help.
Was he an idiot for wearing the t-shirt, yeah I believe he was. But the fact remains that it really could mean anything. |
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"We could always trade with the rest of the world. What Brexit did was allow us to strike FTA’s beyond the EU, in return for sacrificing a sweetheart deal with the bloc. It wasn’t rational because anyone with an ounce of economic sense knows that a relatively small nation (which is services based) isn’t going to have that much trade clout as an independent nation.
You're mistaking 'rational' for 'correct'. The argument for Brexit was based on logic and economic sense. It may have been based on incorrect data, but that doesn't make it non-rational. What you have done is to weigh up the two sides, make your mind up, and then dismiss the opposing view as being foolish and nonsensical. You can't persuade others of your correctness if you don't understand why they think the way they do."
The logic was obviously flawed, Reality has persuaded many in the last few years |
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"The logic was obviously flawed, Reality has persuaded many in the last few years"
The logic wasn't flawed - more trade is obviously better than less. But the assumption that it would be easy to get a US trade deal was wrong. |
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"The logic was obviously flawed, Reality has persuaded many in the last few years
The logic wasn't flawed - more trade is obviously better than less. But the assumption that it would be easy to get a US trade deal was wrong."
this is the key bit for me... brexit could promise the earth, as long as it was true in theory.
It's like leaving your (monogamous) relationshop because you could screw Margot Robbie instead.
The logic is sound. The reality is you could end up with no sex.
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"The logic was obviously flawed, Reality has persuaded many in the last few years
The logic wasn't flawed - more trade is obviously better than less. But the assumption that it would be easy to get a US trade deal was wrong."
Who assumed that it would be easy? |
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By (user no longer on site) 34 weeks ago
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"The logic was obviously flawed, Reality has persuaded many in the last few years
The logic wasn't flawed - more trade is obviously better than less. But the assumption that it would be easy to get a US trade deal was wrong.
Who assumed that it would be easy?"
David Davis |
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"The logic was obviously flawed, Reality has persuaded many in the last few years
The logic wasn't flawed - more trade is obviously better than less. But the assumption that it would be easy to get a US trade deal was wrong.this is the key bit for me... brexit could promise the earth, as long as it was true in theory.
It's like leaving your (monogamous) relationshop because you could screw Margot Robbie instead.
The logic is sound. The reality is you could end up with no sex.
"
That's a better way of putting it. |
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By *irldnCouple 33 weeks ago
Brighton |
“The Labour leader said there is “more that can be achieved across the board” between the UK and EU in a revised deal – on business, veterinary compliance, professional services, security, innovation, research and other areas. He ruled out rejoining the EU, the customs union and the single market” |
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By (user no longer on site) 33 weeks ago
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"“The Labour leader said there is “more that can be achieved across the board” between the UK and EU in a revised deal – on business, veterinary compliance, professional services, security, innovation, research and other areas. He ruled out rejoining the EU, the customs union and the single market”"
Still afraid to upset the red-wall and the soft Tory element.
CU and SM should be at least up for discussion, because if they’re not, the tories will pull the rug out from under labour within the next decade. |
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"Still afraid to upset the red-wall and the soft Tory element.
CU and SM should be at least up for discussion, because if they’re not, the tories will pull the rug out from under labour within the next decade.
"
I don't think Labour can afford that. Even the slightest hint that they might be considering joining the customs union would fuel fears that they will take us back into the EU, and that will lose them a lot of votes. I think they need to rule it out for their first term, then they can bring the idea up for the second term. |
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By (user no longer on site) 33 weeks ago
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"Still afraid to upset the red-wall and the soft Tory element.
CU and SM should be at least up for discussion, because if they’re not, the tories will pull the rug out from under labour within the next decade.
I don't think Labour can afford that. Even the slightest hint that they might be considering joining the customs union would fuel fears that they will take us back into the EU, and that will lose them a lot of votes. I think they need to rule it out for their first term, then they can bring the idea up for the second term."
With the majority of the public now basically accepting that Brexit was a mistake, it’s just a matter of timing I agree. |
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"“The Labour leader said there is “more that can be achieved across the board” between the UK and EU in a revised deal – on business, veterinary compliance, professional services, security, innovation, research and other areas. He ruled out rejoining the EU, the customs union and the single market”"
Would closer ties with the EU make trade deals with non EU countries harder or even the current non EU trade deals unworkable? Or are they completely separate things. My limited understanding is if the UK were to re join then we would have to pull out of the Pacific trade deal. Not sure if the same applies to the single market or CU on theIr own though |
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By *irldnCouple 33 weeks ago
Brighton |
So in the “i” today...
“Britain has been hit worse by inflation than other large economies because of its energy market and labour shortages – not because of Brexit, economists have said.
The UK has the highest inflation of any G7 country, according to the OECD, with the rate averaging 7.2 per cent this year.
Experts blamed Britain’s strong reliance on imports of natural gas, which have become much more expensive since Russian’s invasion of Ukraine last year, as well as shortfalls in the number of workers since the pandemic.”
Sure our resident economist(s) can explain this but surely actual brexit happening during the pandemic ending FoM reduced the numbers of workers (from the EU) impacting on workforce? A removal of “cheap EU labour” leading to an increase in wages for British people was one of the pro-Leave arguments! Guess what? Some sectors have seen wage increases and Brexiters claimed that as a victory.
So surely, while the energy situation could be the main driver, there is no way Brexit is not a major contributory factor. These things are linked! |
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"So in the “i” today...
“Britain has been hit worse by inflation than other large economies because of its energy market and labour shortages – not because of Brexit, economists have said.
The UK has the highest inflation of any G7 country, according to the OECD, with the rate averaging 7.2 per cent this year.
Experts blamed Britain’s strong reliance on imports of natural gas, which have become much more expensive since Russian’s invasion of Ukraine last year, as well as shortfalls in the number of workers since the pandemic.”
Sure our resident economist(s) can explain this but surely actual brexit happening during the pandemic ending FoM reduced the numbers of workers (from the EU) impacting on workforce? A removal of “cheap EU labour” leading to an increase in wages for British people was one of the pro-Leave arguments! Guess what? Some sectors have seen wage increases and Brexiters claimed that as a victory.
So surely, while the energy situation could be the main driver, there is no way Brexit is not a major contributory factor. These things are linked!"
There's a few misplaced ? there I think so struggling to understand what you're either saying or asking.
But...
Of course Brexit had an impact on the Labour Market. In both good and bad.
I understand cheap labour, everyone wants to make a (larger) profit so wants to pay as little as possible. This is partly our own fault, as consumers, because we don't want to pay £120 for something we can get for £100.
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By *otMe66Man 33 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"So in the “i” today...
“Britain has been hit worse by inflation than other large economies because of its energy market and labour shortages – not because of Brexit, economists have said.
The UK has the highest inflation of any G7 country, according to the OECD, with the rate averaging 7.2 per cent this year.
Experts blamed Britain’s strong reliance on imports of natural gas, which have become much more expensive since Russian’s invasion of Ukraine last year, as well as shortfalls in the number of workers since the pandemic.”
Sure our resident economist(s) can explain this but surely actual brexit happening during the pandemic ending FoM reduced the numbers of workers (from the EU) impacting on workforce? A removal of “cheap EU labour” leading to an increase in wages for British people was one of the pro-Leave arguments! Guess what? Some sectors have seen wage increases and Brexiters claimed that as a victory.
So surely, while the energy situation could be the main driver, there is no way Brexit is not a major contributory factor. These things are linked!"
The problem with the figure of 7.2%, it was based on a prediction by OECD that inflation would rise, today we have learnt that it actually dropped over 12 months from 6.9% to 6.2%. The question now is, will it stop the BoE increasing interest rates, we will know which way this will go tomorrow.
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By *irldnCouple 33 weeks ago
Brighton |
"So in the “i” today...
“Britain has been hit worse by inflation than other large economies because of its energy market and labour shortages – not because of Brexit, economists have said.
The UK has the highest inflation of any G7 country, according to the OECD, with the rate averaging 7.2 per cent this year.
Experts blamed Britain’s strong reliance on imports of natural gas, which have become much more expensive since Russian’s invasion of Ukraine last year, as well as shortfalls in the number of workers since the pandemic.”
Sure our resident economist(s) can explain this but surely actual brexit happening during the pandemic ending FoM reduced the numbers of workers (from the EU) impacting on workforce? A removal of “cheap EU labour” leading to an increase in wages for British people was one of the pro-Leave arguments! Guess what? Some sectors have seen wage increases and Brexiters claimed that as a victory.
So surely, while the energy situation could be the main driver, there is no way Brexit is not a major contributory factor. These things are linked!
There's a few misplaced ? there I think so struggling to understand what you're either saying or asking.
But...
Of course Brexit had an impact on the Labour Market. In both good and bad.
I understand cheap labour, everyone wants to make a (larger) profit so wants to pay as little as possible. This is partly our own fault, as consumers, because we don't want to pay £120 for something we can get for £100.
"
The point is this, even a total layperson knows if there is a shortage of something then the price for that thing will invariably go up if there is demand. The economists are saying one factor contributing to inflation is a labour shortage (ergo wage increases) but are denying this has anything to do with Brexit and the end of FoM. It’s a bizarre argument. |
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By *irldnCouple 33 weeks ago
Brighton |
"So in the “i” today...
“Britain has been hit worse by inflation than other large economies because of its energy market and labour shortages – not because of Brexit, economists have said.
The UK has the highest inflation of any G7 country, according to the OECD, with the rate averaging 7.2 per cent this year.
Experts blamed Britain’s strong reliance on imports of natural gas, which have become much more expensive since Russian’s invasion of Ukraine last year, as well as shortfalls in the number of workers since the pandemic.”
Sure our resident economist(s) can explain this but surely actual brexit happening during the pandemic ending FoM reduced the numbers of workers (from the EU) impacting on workforce? A removal of “cheap EU labour” leading to an increase in wages for British people was one of the pro-Leave arguments! Guess what? Some sectors have seen wage increases and Brexiters claimed that as a victory.
So surely, while the energy situation could be the main driver, there is no way Brexit is not a major contributory factor. These things are linked!
The problem with the figure of 7.2%, it was based on a prediction by OECD that inflation would rise, today we have learnt that it actually dropped over 12 months from 6.9% to 6.2%. The question now is, will it stop the BoE increasing interest rates, we will know which way this will go tomorrow.
"
That wasn’t the reason I posted that quote but yeah, that too! |
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By *otMe66Man 33 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"So in the “i” today...
“Britain has been hit worse by inflation than other large economies because of its energy market and labour shortages – not because of Brexit, economists have said.
The UK has the highest inflation of any G7 country, according to the OECD, with the rate averaging 7.2 per cent this year.
Experts blamed Britain’s strong reliance on imports of natural gas, which have become much more expensive since Russian’s invasion of Ukraine last year, as well as shortfalls in the number of workers since the pandemic.”
Sure our resident economist(s) can explain this but surely actual brexit happening during the pandemic ending FoM reduced the numbers of workers (from the EU) impacting on workforce? A removal of “cheap EU labour” leading to an increase in wages for British people was one of the pro-Leave arguments! Guess what? Some sectors have seen wage increases and Brexiters claimed that as a victory.
So surely, while the energy situation could be the main driver, there is no way Brexit is not a major contributory factor. These things are linked!
The problem with the figure of 7.2%, it was based on a prediction by OECD that inflation would rise, today we have learnt that it actually dropped over 12 months from 6.9% to 6.2%. The question now is, will it stop the BoE increasing interest rates, we will know which way this will go tomorrow.
That wasn’t the reason I posted that quote but yeah, that too!"
I understand that, but your assumption was we were running behind and Brexit must be having an impact too.
If we put all this together, it would appear to be having far less of an impact than expected |
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"So in the “i” today...
“Britain has been hit worse by inflation than other large economies because of its energy market and labour shortages – not because of Brexit, economists have said.
The UK has the highest inflation of any G7 country, according to the OECD, with the rate averaging 7.2 per cent this year.
Experts blamed Britain’s strong reliance on imports of natural gas, which have become much more expensive since Russian’s invasion of Ukraine last year, as well as shortfalls in the number of workers since the pandemic.”
Sure our resident economist(s) can explain this but surely actual brexit happening during the pandemic ending FoM reduced the numbers of workers (from the EU) impacting on workforce? A removal of “cheap EU labour” leading to an increase in wages for British people was one of the pro-Leave arguments! Guess what? Some sectors have seen wage increases and Brexiters claimed that as a victory.
So surely, while the energy situation could be the main driver, there is no way Brexit is not a major contributory factor. These things are linked!
There's a few misplaced ? there I think so struggling to understand what you're either saying or asking.
But...
Of course Brexit had an impact on the Labour Market. In both good and bad.
I understand cheap labour, everyone wants to make a (larger) profit so wants to pay as little as possible. This is partly our own fault, as consumers, because we don't want to pay £120 for something we can get for £100.
The point is this, even a total layperson knows if there is a shortage of something then the price for that thing will invariably go up if there is demand. The economists are saying one factor contributing to inflation is a labour shortage (ergo wage increases) but are denying this has anything to do with Brexit and the end of FoM. It’s a bizarre argument."
You can lay the blame firmly at "I" for the divisive headline. I've just read the article and I can't see any of the people quoted saying Brexit hasn't had an impact, in fact, I see the opposite. The part you're probably pissed off with is they say its secondary. |
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By *irldnCouple 33 weeks ago
Brighton |
"So in the “i” today...
“Britain has been hit worse by inflation than other large economies because of its energy market and labour shortages – not because of Brexit, economists have said.
The UK has the highest inflation of any G7 country, according to the OECD, with the rate averaging 7.2 per cent this year.
Experts blamed Britain’s strong reliance on imports of natural gas, which have become much more expensive since Russian’s invasion of Ukraine last year, as well as shortfalls in the number of workers since the pandemic.”
Sure our resident economist(s) can explain this but surely actual brexit happening during the pandemic ending FoM reduced the numbers of workers (from the EU) impacting on workforce? A removal of “cheap EU labour” leading to an increase in wages for British people was one of the pro-Leave arguments! Guess what? Some sectors have seen wage increases and Brexiters claimed that as a victory.
So surely, while the energy situation could be the main driver, there is no way Brexit is not a major contributory factor. These things are linked!
There's a few misplaced ? there I think so struggling to understand what you're either saying or asking.
But...
Of course Brexit had an impact on the Labour Market. In both good and bad.
I understand cheap labour, everyone wants to make a (larger) profit so wants to pay as little as possible. This is partly our own fault, as consumers, because we don't want to pay £120 for something we can get for £100.
The point is this, even a total layperson knows if there is a shortage of something then the price for that thing will invariably go up if there is demand. The economists are saying one factor contributing to inflation is a labour shortage (ergo wage increases) but are denying this has anything to do with Brexit and the end of FoM. It’s a bizarre argument.
You can lay the blame firmly at "I" for the divisive headline. I've just read the article and I can't see any of the people quoted saying Brexit hasn't had an impact, in fact, I see the opposite. The part you're probably pissed off with is they say its secondary. "
Did I come across as “pissed off”? Or just mildly irritated and confused that they are disconnecting labour shortages with leaving the EU and FoM which to me is counter-intuitive!
Just felt like “brexit” is a bit like “fight club”
Pissed off is wildly overstating my feeling on this particular article. Might have stirred my tea a little more vigorously but that is about it! Just saw it as an interesting take! |
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By *irldnCouple 33 weeks ago
Brighton |
"So in the “i” today...
“Britain has been hit worse by inflation than other large economies because of its energy market and labour shortages – not because of Brexit, economists have said.
The UK has the highest inflation of any G7 country, according to the OECD, with the rate averaging 7.2 per cent this year.
Experts blamed Britain’s strong reliance on imports of natural gas, which have become much more expensive since Russian’s invasion of Ukraine last year, as well as shortfalls in the number of workers since the pandemic.”
Sure our resident economist(s) can explain this but surely actual brexit happening during the pandemic ending FoM reduced the numbers of workers (from the EU) impacting on workforce? A removal of “cheap EU labour” leading to an increase in wages for British people was one of the pro-Leave arguments! Guess what? Some sectors have seen wage increases and Brexiters claimed that as a victory.
So surely, while the energy situation could be the main driver, there is no way Brexit is not a major contributory factor. These things are linked!
The problem with the figure of 7.2%, it was based on a prediction by OECD that inflation would rise, today we have learnt that it actually dropped over 12 months from 6.9% to 6.2%. The question now is, will it stop the BoE increasing interest rates, we will know which way this will go tomorrow.
That wasn’t the reason I posted that quote but yeah, that too!
I understand that, but your assumption was we were running behind and Brexit must be having an impact too.
If we put all this together, it would appear to be having far less of an impact than expected"
You’ve lost me? I wasn’t commenting on the inflation figure, just the disconnect between labour shortages and brexit/FoM and the implication this was the fault of the pandemic. |
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"So in the “i” today...
“Britain has been hit worse by inflation than other large economies because of its energy market and labour shortages – not because of Brexit, economists have said.
The UK has the highest inflation of any G7 country, according to the OECD, with the rate averaging 7.2 per cent this year.
Experts blamed Britain’s strong reliance on imports of natural gas, which have become much more expensive since Russian’s invasion of Ukraine last year, as well as shortfalls in the number of workers since the pandemic.”
Sure our resident economist(s) can explain this but surely actual brexit happening during the pandemic ending FoM reduced the numbers of workers (from the EU) impacting on workforce? A removal of “cheap EU labour” leading to an increase in wages for British people was one of the pro-Leave arguments! Guess what? Some sectors have seen wage increases and Brexiters claimed that as a victory.
So surely, while the energy situation could be the main driver, there is no way Brexit is not a major contributory factor. These things are linked!
The problem with the figure of 7.2%, it was based on a prediction by OECD that inflation would rise, today we have learnt that it actually dropped over 12 months from 6.9% to 6.2%. The question now is, will it stop the BoE increasing interest rates, we will know which way this will go tomorrow.
That wasn’t the reason I posted that quote but yeah, that too!
I understand that, but your assumption was we were running behind and Brexit must be having an impact too.
If we put all this together, it would appear to be having far less of an impact than expected
You’ve lost me? I wasn’t commenting on the inflation figure, just the disconnect between labour shortages and brexit/FoM and the implication this was the fault of the pandemic. "
it may not be as simple as that. Based on my anecdotal echo chamber, those dropping out the workplace or doing reduced hours were upper management who could afford to. And these aren't probably people who you'd say are the target market for FOM.
I have no idea tbh. Bit as with lots of stuff, a single number is multi factored. |
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"So in the “i” today...
“Britain has been hit worse by inflation than other large economies because of its energy market and labour shortages – not because of Brexit, economists have said.
The UK has the highest inflation of any G7 country, according to the OECD, with the rate averaging 7.2 per cent this year.
Experts blamed Britain’s strong reliance on imports of natural gas, which have become much more expensive since Russian’s invasion of Ukraine last year, as well as shortfalls in the number of workers since the pandemic.”
Sure our resident economist(s) can explain this but surely actual brexit happening during the pandemic ending FoM reduced the numbers of workers (from the EU) impacting on workforce? A removal of “cheap EU labour” leading to an increase in wages for British people was one of the pro-Leave arguments! Guess what? Some sectors have seen wage increases and Brexiters claimed that as a victory.
So surely, while the energy situation could be the main driver, there is no way Brexit is not a major contributory factor. These things are linked!
There's a few misplaced ? there I think so struggling to understand what you're either saying or asking.
But...
Of course Brexit had an impact on the Labour Market. In both good and bad.
I understand cheap labour, everyone wants to make a (larger) profit so wants to pay as little as possible. This is partly our own fault, as consumers, because we don't want to pay £120 for something we can get for £100.
The point is this, even a total layperson knows if there is a shortage of something then the price for that thing will invariably go up if there is demand. The economists are saying one factor contributing to inflation is a labour shortage (ergo wage increases) but are denying this has anything to do with Brexit and the end of FoM. It’s a bizarre argument.
You can lay the blame firmly at "I" for the divisive headline. I've just read the article and I can't see any of the people quoted saying Brexit hasn't had an impact, in fact, I see the opposite. The part you're probably pissed off with is they say its secondary.
Did I come across as “pissed off”? Or just mildly irritated and confused that they are disconnecting labour shortages with leaving the EU and FoM which to me is counter-intuitive!
Just felt like “brexit” is a bit like “fight club”
Pissed off is wildly overstating my feeling on this particular article. Might have stirred my tea a little more vigorously but that is about it! Just saw it as an interesting take! "
You did sound pissed off 
The point I was making though, is that the economists quoted don't disconnect Brexit, they say its secondary.
It's probably your anger that's making you interpret it in the way you have  |
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By *irldnCouple 33 weeks ago
Brighton |
"So in the “i” today...
“Britain has been hit worse by inflation than other large economies because of its energy market and labour shortages – not because of Brexit, economists have said.
The UK has the highest inflation of any G7 country, according to the OECD, with the rate averaging 7.2 per cent this year.
Experts blamed Britain’s strong reliance on imports of natural gas, which have become much more expensive since Russian’s invasion of Ukraine last year, as well as shortfalls in the number of workers since the pandemic.”
Sure our resident economist(s) can explain this but surely actual brexit happening during the pandemic ending FoM reduced the numbers of workers (from the EU) impacting on workforce? A removal of “cheap EU labour” leading to an increase in wages for British people was one of the pro-Leave arguments! Guess what? Some sectors have seen wage increases and Brexiters claimed that as a victory.
So surely, while the energy situation could be the main driver, there is no way Brexit is not a major contributory factor. These things are linked!
There's a few misplaced ? there I think so struggling to understand what you're either saying or asking.
But...
Of course Brexit had an impact on the Labour Market. In both good and bad.
I understand cheap labour, everyone wants to make a (larger) profit so wants to pay as little as possible. This is partly our own fault, as consumers, because we don't want to pay £120 for something we can get for £100.
The point is this, even a total layperson knows if there is a shortage of something then the price for that thing will invariably go up if there is demand. The economists are saying one factor contributing to inflation is a labour shortage (ergo wage increases) but are denying this has anything to do with Brexit and the end of FoM. It’s a bizarre argument.
You can lay the blame firmly at "I" for the divisive headline. I've just read the article and I can't see any of the people quoted saying Brexit hasn't had an impact, in fact, I see the opposite. The part you're probably pissed off with is they say its secondary.
Did I come across as “pissed off”? Or just mildly irritated and confused that they are disconnecting labour shortages with leaving the EU and FoM which to me is counter-intuitive!
Just felt like “brexit” is a bit like “fight club”
Pissed off is wildly overstating my feeling on this particular article. Might have stirred my tea a little more vigorously but that is about it! Just saw it as an interesting take!
You did sound pissed off
The point I was making though, is that the economists quoted don't disconnect Brexit, they say its secondary.
It's probably your anger that's making you interpret it in the way you have "
LISTEN HERE I AM NOT FUCKING PISSED OFF OK!
*joke |
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"So in the “i” today...
“Britain has been hit worse by inflation than other large economies because of its energy market and labour shortages – not because of Brexit, economists have said.
The UK has the highest inflation of any G7 country, according to the OECD, with the rate averaging 7.2 per cent this year.
Experts blamed Britain’s strong reliance on imports of natural gas, which have become much more expensive since Russian’s invasion of Ukraine last year, as well as shortfalls in the number of workers since the pandemic.”
Sure our resident economist(s) can explain this but surely actual brexit happening during the pandemic ending FoM reduced the numbers of workers (from the EU) impacting on workforce? A removal of “cheap EU labour” leading to an increase in wages for British people was one of the pro-Leave arguments! Guess what? Some sectors have seen wage increases and Brexiters claimed that as a victory.
So surely, while the energy situation could be the main driver, there is no way Brexit is not a major contributory factor. These things are linked!
There's a few misplaced ? there I think so struggling to understand what you're either saying or asking.
But...
Of course Brexit had an impact on the Labour Market. In both good and bad.
I understand cheap labour, everyone wants to make a (larger) profit so wants to pay as little as possible. This is partly our own fault, as consumers, because we don't want to pay £120 for something we can get for £100.
The point is this, even a total layperson knows if there is a shortage of something then the price for that thing will invariably go up if there is demand. The economists are saying one factor contributing to inflation is a labour shortage (ergo wage increases) but are denying this has anything to do with Brexit and the end of FoM. It’s a bizarre argument.
You can lay the blame firmly at "I" for the divisive headline. I've just read the article and I can't see any of the people quoted saying Brexit hasn't had an impact, in fact, I see the opposite. The part you're probably pissed off with is they say its secondary.
Did I come across as “pissed off”? Or just mildly irritated and confused that they are disconnecting labour shortages with leaving the EU and FoM which to me is counter-intuitive!
Just felt like “brexit” is a bit like “fight club”
Pissed off is wildly overstating my feeling on this particular article. Might have stirred my tea a little more vigorously but that is about it! Just saw it as an interesting take!
You did sound pissed off
The point I was making though, is that the economists quoted don't disconnect Brexit, they say its secondary.
It's probably your anger that's making you interpret it in the way you have
LISTEN HERE I AM NOT FUCKING PISSED OFF OK!
*joke"
I believe you now  |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
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"So in the “i” today...
“Britain has been hit worse by inflation than other large economies because of its energy market and labour shortages – not because of Brexit, economists have said.
The UK has the highest inflation of any G7 country, according to the OECD, with the rate averaging 7.2 per cent this year.
Experts blamed Britain’s strong reliance on imports of natural gas, which have become much more expensive since Russian’s invasion of Ukraine last year, as well as shortfalls in the number of workers since the pandemic.”
Sure our resident economist(s) can explain this but surely actual brexit happening during the pandemic ending FoM reduced the numbers of workers (from the EU) impacting on workforce? A removal of “cheap EU labour” leading to an increase in wages for British people was one of the pro-Leave arguments! Guess what? Some sectors have seen wage increases and Brexiters claimed that as a victory.
So surely, while the energy situation could be the main driver, there is no way Brexit is not a major contributory factor. These things are linked!
There's a few misplaced ? there I think so struggling to understand what you're either saying or asking.
But...
Of course Brexit had an impact on the Labour Market. In both good and bad.
I understand cheap labour, everyone wants to make a (larger) profit so wants to pay as little as possible. This is partly our own fault, as consumers, because we don't want to pay £120 for something we can get for £100.
The point is this, even a total layperson knows if there is a shortage of something then the price for that thing will invariably go up if there is demand. The economists are saying one factor contributing to inflation is a labour shortage (ergo wage increases) but are denying this has anything to do with Brexit and the end of FoM. It’s a bizarre argument.
You can lay the blame firmly at "I" for the divisive headline. I've just read the article and I can't see any of the people quoted saying Brexit hasn't had an impact, in fact, I see the opposite. The part you're probably pissed off with is they say its secondary.
Did I come across as “pissed off”? Or just mildly irritated and confused that they are disconnecting labour shortages with leaving the EU and FoM which to me is counter-intuitive!
Just felt like “brexit” is a bit like “fight club”
Pissed off is wildly overstating my feeling on this particular article. Might have stirred my tea a little more vigorously but that is about it! Just saw it as an interesting take!
You did sound pissed off
The point I was making though, is that the economists quoted don't disconnect Brexit, they say its secondary.
It's probably your anger that's making you interpret it in the way you have "
It may be put as a secondary reason because Labour shortages are not unique to the UK and even in countries that have FOM they have a problem with it. Germany is in the EU but has a big problem with Labour shortages |
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By *oo hot OP Couple 32 weeks ago
North West |
"So in the “i” today...
“Britain has been hit worse by inflation than other large economies because of its energy market and labour shortages – not because of Brexit, economists have said.
The UK has the highest inflation of any G7 country, according to the OECD, with the rate averaging 7.2 per cent this year.
Experts blamed Britain’s strong reliance on imports of natural gas, which have become much more expensive since Russian’s invasion of Ukraine last year, as well as shortfalls in the number of workers since the pandemic.”
Sure our resident economist(s) can explain this but surely actual brexit happening during the pandemic ending FoM reduced the numbers of workers (from the EU) impacting on workforce? A removal of “cheap EU labour” leading to an increase in wages for British people was one of the pro-Leave arguments! Guess what? Some sectors have seen wage increases and Brexiters claimed that as a victory.
So surely, while the energy situation could be the main driver, there is no way Brexit is not a major contributory factor. These things are linked!
There's a few misplaced ? there I think so struggling to understand what you're either saying or asking.
But...
Of course Brexit had an impact on the Labour Market. In both good and bad.
I understand cheap labour, everyone wants to make a (larger) profit so wants to pay as little as possible. This is partly our own fault, as consumers, because we don't want to pay £120 for something we can get for £100.
The point is this, even a total layperson knows if there is a shortage of something then the price for that thing will invariably go up if there is demand. The economists are saying one factor contributing to inflation is a labour shortage (ergo wage increases) but are denying this has anything to do with Brexit and the end of FoM. It’s a bizarre argument.
You can lay the blame firmly at "I" for the divisive headline. I've just read the article and I can't see any of the people quoted saying Brexit hasn't had an impact, in fact, I see the opposite. The part you're probably pissed off with is they say its secondary.
Did I come across as “pissed off”? Or just mildly irritated and confused that they are disconnecting labour shortages with leaving the EU and FoM which to me is counter-intuitive!
Just felt like “brexit” is a bit like “fight club”
Pissed off is wildly overstating my feeling on this particular article. Might have stirred my tea a little more vigorously but that is about it! Just saw it as an interesting take!
You did sound pissed off
The point I was making though, is that the economists quoted don't disconnect Brexit, they say its secondary.
It's probably your anger that's making you interpret it in the way you have
It may be put as a secondary reason because Labour shortages are not unique to the UK and even in countries that have FOM they have a problem with it. Germany is in the EU but has a big problem with Labour shortages"
The “Freedom of Movement” problem as made by Brexiters was that EU migrants were swamping this country taking both “are” jobs and “are” benefits.
The truth of course is the freedom of movement, in a town, a region, a country, or across a continent is dependant upon economic demands. Britain was the first country in Europe to rear its head from the doldrums in the aftermath of the banking crash post-2008, led mainly by the service sector. Demand for employees across all sectors of the economy was high and this was a migration pull-factor.
However, as Germany is seeing, a drop-off in output and stagnation of the economy means that the country is now not as attractive for migrants and doesn’t quite have the same pull factor. |
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"So in the “i” today...
“Britain has been hit worse by inflation than other large economies because of its energy market and labour shortages – not because of Brexit, economists have said.
The UK has the highest inflation of any G7 country, according to the OECD, with the rate averaging 7.2 per cent this year.
Experts blamed Britain’s strong reliance on imports of natural gas, which have become much more expensive since Russian’s invasion of Ukraine last year, as well as shortfalls in the number of workers since the pandemic.”
Sure our resident economist(s) can explain this but surely actual brexit happening during the pandemic ending FoM reduced the numbers of workers (from the EU) impacting on workforce? A removal of “cheap EU labour” leading to an increase in wages for British people was one of the pro-Leave arguments! Guess what? Some sectors have seen wage increases and Brexiters claimed that as a victory.
So surely, while the energy situation could be the main driver, there is no way Brexit is not a major contributory factor. These things are linked!
There's a few misplaced ? there I think so struggling to understand what you're either saying or asking.
But...
Of course Brexit had an impact on the Labour Market. In both good and bad.
I understand cheap labour, everyone wants to make a (larger) profit so wants to pay as little as possible. This is partly our own fault, as consumers, because we don't want to pay £120 for something we can get for £100.
The point is this, even a total layperson knows if there is a shortage of something then the price for that thing will invariably go up if there is demand. The economists are saying one factor contributing to inflation is a labour shortage (ergo wage increases) but are denying this has anything to do with Brexit and the end of FoM. It’s a bizarre argument.
You can lay the blame firmly at "I" for the divisive headline. I've just read the article and I can't see any of the people quoted saying Brexit hasn't had an impact, in fact, I see the opposite. The part you're probably pissed off with is they say its secondary.
Did I come across as “pissed off”? Or just mildly irritated and confused that they are disconnecting labour shortages with leaving the EU and FoM which to me is counter-intuitive!
Just felt like “brexit” is a bit like “fight club”
Pissed off is wildly overstating my feeling on this particular article. Might have stirred my tea a little more vigorously but that is about it! Just saw it as an interesting take!
You did sound pissed off
The point I was making though, is that the economists quoted don't disconnect Brexit, they say its secondary.
It's probably your anger that's making you interpret it in the way you have
It may be put as a secondary reason because Labour shortages are not unique to the UK and even in countries that have FOM they have a problem with it. Germany is in the EU but has a big problem with Labour shortages
The “Freedom of Movement” problem as made by Brexiters was that EU migrants were swamping this country taking both “are” jobs and “are” benefits.
The truth of course is the freedom of movement, in a town, a region, a country, or across a continent is dependant upon economic demands. Britain was the first country in Europe to rear its head from the doldrums in the aftermath of the banking crash post-2008, led mainly by the service sector. Demand for employees across all sectors of the economy was high and this was a migration pull-factor.
However, as Germany is seeing, a drop-off in output and stagnation of the economy means that the country is now not as attractive for migrants and doesn’t quite have the same pull factor. "
So not a UK specific problem as I stated. Germany need more workers desperately so the jobs are available. It not restricted to just Germany though as the same or similar situation is throughout Europe and even perhaps places like the US |
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