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Brexit (Yay or Nay)
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Not to go all James O'Brien (of LBC fame) - but I'm genuinely interested in knowing from my fellow Fabbers: How is Brexit treating you? Although it'll most likely never happen in our lifetimes, for the good of the country, should we rejoin? |
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"To be the world’s fourth largest exporter, as a relatively small country, suggests we’re doing fine. Shame the Tories blew the opportunity to do Brexit properly. "
How do you suggest they should have done it properly? |
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By *ornycougaWoman 3 weeks ago
Wherever I lay my hat - Portugal |
"To be the world’s fourth largest exporter, as a relatively small country, suggests we’re doing fine. Shame the Tories blew the opportunity to do Brexit properly.
How do you suggest they should have done it properly?"
C'mon. The Tories are incapable of doing anything properly - apart from clusterfuckery.
Massive mistake. |
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Brexit is a shit show. Brexit always was going to be a shit show. A good start would be to prosecute all the politicians who made promises that they knew were lies, and all the multi-billionaires who paid them to do it. Those who can be proved to have taken foreign money should be tried for treason, they are responsible for damaging the United Kingdom far more than any cold war era spies.
We should then approach the EU on the basis that brexit was an act carried out by a criminal cabal who were only in power because of their illegal actions. |
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" C'mon. The Tories are incapable of doing anything properly - apart from clusterfuckery.
Massive mistake. "
I agree completely, but I'm always interested in hearing opposing views and breaking them down bit by bit  |
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Its a complete and utter total failure of that there is no doubt. Even the most hardened brexiteer has to admit that.
I mean the damn thing still isn't done! Trade deals left to be finalised all over the place, the ones that we do have in place are barely worth the paper they are written on and need further work. It's cost our economy so much and honestly don't think any of us will see any, if there is any, benefit until long after we are dead. By which time I'm sure the country will have seen sense and re-joined. |
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By *bi HaiveMan 3 weeks ago
Forum Mod Cheeseville, Somerset |
"To be the world’s fourth largest exporter, as a relatively small country, suggests we’re doing fine. Shame the Tories blew the opportunity to do Brexit properly. "
Updated this month.
Just shows how many new trade agreements Brexit has brought the UK. 
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9314/#:~:text=The%20UK%20has%20signed%20three,the%20end%20of%20May%202023. |
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"To be the world’s fourth largest exporter, as a relatively small country, suggests we’re doing fine. Shame the Tories blew the opportunity to do Brexit properly.
How do you suggest they should have done it properly?"
Leave the ECHR and actually be sovereign |
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"Not to go all James O'Brien (of LBC fame) - but I'm genuinely interested in knowing from my fellow Fabbers: How is Brexit treating you? Although it'll most likely never happen in our lifetimes, for the good of the country, should we rejoin?"
Brexit has been an utter disaster. I have yet to see anyone able to articulate a single benefit of it, while the impact on the economy, to access to medications, to small business and artists who can't ship to or tour Europe without incurring huge costs, to our Freedom of Movement across Europe is clear as day.
If there were another referendum tomorrow I would vote to re-join. |
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"To be the world’s fourth largest exporter, as a relatively small country, suggests we’re doing fine. Shame the Tories blew the opportunity to do Brexit properly.
Updated this month.
Just shows how many new trade agreements Brexit has brought the UK.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9314/#:~:text=The%20UK%20has%20signed%20three,the%20end%20of%20May%202023."
And yet we’re the fourth largest exporter in the world - imagine much better we’d have done with a government who actually believed in Brexit and Britain |
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Personally speaking as a construction worker it's been great,due to the lack of cheap foreign labour, work is in a plentiful supply and wages have been steadily increasing.
I'm now earning almost as much as I did before the credit crunch in 2010 |
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By *bi HaiveMan 3 weeks ago
Forum Mod Cheeseville, Somerset |
"To be the world’s fourth largest exporter, as a relatively small country, suggests we’re doing fine. Shame the Tories blew the opportunity to do Brexit properly.
Updated this month.
Just shows how many new trade agreements Brexit has brought the UK.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9314/#:~:text=The%20UK%20has%20signed%20three,the%20end%20of%20May%202023.
And yet we’re the fourth largest exporter in the world - imagine much better we’d have done with a government who actually believed in Brexit and Britain "
'Belief' wouldn't have helped. The 'we don't need them they need us' attitude was always a lie. |
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By *bi HaiveMan 3 weeks ago
Forum Mod Cheeseville, Somerset |
" Leave the ECHR and actually be sovereign
Surely you're just trolling?
Surely you don’t want to be told what to do and what to say by unelected authoritarians in another country?"
You know the ECHR has nothing to do with the EU.....right?  |
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By *ornycougaWoman 3 weeks ago
Wherever I lay my hat - Portugal |
"Personally speaking as a construction worker it's been great,due to the lack of cheap foreign labour, work is in a plentiful supply and wages have been steadily increasing.
I'm now earning almost as much as I did before the credit crunch in 2010 "
The flip side as someone trying to get a builder for major renovation work is that I cannot find one for love nor money |
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" Leave the ECHR and actually be sovereign
Surely you're just trolling?
Surely you don’t want to be told what to do and what to say by unelected authoritarians in another country?"
So what specifically do you have against the ECHR? Could you be more specific? |
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Based on lies and was along time coming though and that was the complete arrogance and abject failure of our so called london/south east ruling elites and their billionaire backers though as decades were spent on blaming the "EU" for just about everything that was was wrong or went wrong with this country and Brexit hasn't even really kicked in yet and was the 1st phrase of a larger plan ( Reform Party or Lettuce Liz )  |
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"Personally speaking as a construction worker it's been great,due to the lack of cheap foreign labour, work is in a plentiful supply and wages have been steadily increasing.
I'm now earning almost as much as I did before the credit crunch in 2010
The flip side as someone trying to get a builder for major renovation work is that I cannot find one for love nor money"
The skills shortage is due to lack of investment and training by companies who previously would have employed cheap Eastern European labour instead of training up new staff this is another Tory thing.
You'll notice that I've not said crap foreign labour as I've met many really good hardworking Polish worker's. |
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" Leave the ECHR and actually be sovereign
Surely you're just trolling?
Surely you don’t want to be told what to do and what to say by unelected authoritarians in another country?"
Do you understand the judiciary, what the ECHR actually is, and who the driving force was in setting it up? |
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Brexit was an idea years in the making from a few anti-Euro MP's who had designs on a nation well above their pay grade, and an PM that would do anything to gain power.
Whatever idea there was, it needed a plan. If there was a plan, it hasn't worked out as it's a half put-together cock-eyed mess.
If Brexit was ever planned for (pre 2016), any and all outcomes, perimeters, contingencies should have been in place should the vote have gone its way. It did, but any and all legislative planning took place after the vote.
Take Scotland and the Independence. There is full scrutiny. Courts aside, it isn't yes or no to a referenda, there's questions on Sterling, debt, boarders, healthcare, finance, EU accession, immigration, security, fishery... None of this took place pre Brexit just a few months of "we will be better off by £X", "take back control".
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By *enk15Man 3 weeks ago
Bidford On Avon |
"To be the world’s fourth largest exporter, as a relatively small country, suggests we’re doing fine. Shame the Tories blew the opportunity to do Brexit properly.
Updated this month.
Just shows how many new trade agreements Brexit has brought the UK.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9314/#:~:text=The%20UK%20has%20signed%20three,the%20end%20of%20May%202023.
And yet we’re the fourth largest exporter in the world - imagine much better we’d have done with a government who actually believed in Brexit and Britain "
We are not the 4th largest exporter though. The report is for the year 2022, we have slipped back down again in 2023.
Also, adjusting for inflation, Britain exported less in 2023 than it did in 2018. |
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I am normally more placid than this
But it’s a terrible issue and will be - from a work point of view to even going on a holiday
We are so left behind
My first degree is in economics ( ok only a 2:2) I was playing rugby and drinking for most of it
But it’s a terrible thing
We need to rejoin for trade purposes and have a more complete unified Europe and GB. Not as it is now becoming the 52nd state of America
Warned … do not get me started !!  |
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"Brexit is a shit show. Brexit always was going to be a shit show. A good start would be to prosecute all the politicians who made promises that they knew were lies, and all the multi-billionaires who paid them to do it. Those who can be proved to have taken foreign money should be tried for treason, they are responsible for damaging the United Kingdom far more than any cold war era spies.
We should then approach the EU on the basis that brexit was an act carried out by a criminal cabal who were only in power because of their illegal actions."
I’ve found a soul mate. Good for you. Thieves and thieves who profit from lies told by their friends should go to jail. |
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But apart from all that we both prefer to call it "Brexshite" though !! and will always be a complete and utter shiteshow and feel for the younger generation who it will impact aswell but were denied a vote on it ?? and as for the ones who say this isn't what i voted for or it wasn't done properly ???? |
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Brexit was built on false promises, and has been nothing but a sham. Unless you directly benefit from one of the nuanced benefits, then you're simply lying to yourself if you consider it a success |
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I loathe the EU with all my black heart.
I loved the EEC which provided many trade benefits to us, but the expanded political ambitions of the beaurocrats (Eurocrats?) and the bloated administrative system of the EU led me to believe that we were better off out of it.
I haven’t changed that view.
I am saddened by the binary nature of these debates though, and the way in which politics in general has been simplified down to the point where many people are unwilling to entertain the idea of genuine debate with someone that they perceive as being ‘wrong’.
Too many of the levers of power have been handed to the unelected for my taste. |
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By *avinaTVTV/TS 3 weeks ago
Transsexual Transylvania |
Brexit is the single stupidest thing I've ever seen a country do to itself - and I grew up during Apartheid.
There's no "doing Brexit properly", it's inherently disadvantageous for the UK on every level.
If you ever thought Brexit was the answer, you didn't understand the question. |
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Rejoin without question. Quite happy if that involves the Euro and Schengen. I've never wet myself over the perceived loss of 'sovereignty'. Brexit was the most ridiculous act of self harm this country had ever inflicted upon itself and when I go to Europe I feel ashamed to be British. I never used to before 2016. They must think we are all mad. |
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By *avinaTVTV/TS 3 weeks ago
Transsexual Transylvania |
"Only positive thing was being able to order/roll out Covid vaccines.
Rest is a shit show"
As has been pointed out many times, being in the EU wouldn't have stopped us doing exactly what we did when it came to Covid vaccines. So even that's a spurious benefit. |
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I don’t think it’s our choice to return anymore. We would have to apply and then it’s up to our European friends to accept us back or not. If I remember correctly didn’t France block us twice in the past before we finally got accepted (and that was with fewer countries). Brexit happened. I think we all need to accept it (love it or hate it) |
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By *avinaTVTV/TS 3 weeks ago
Transsexual Transylvania |
"I loathe the EU with all my black heart.
I loved the EEC which provided many trade benefits to us, but the expanded political ambitions of the beaurocrats (Eurocrats?) and the bloated administrative system of the EU led me to believe that we were better off out of it.
I haven’t changed that view.
I am saddened by the binary nature of these debates though, and the way in which politics in general has been simplified down to the point where many people are unwilling to entertain the idea of genuine debate with someone that they perceive as being ‘wrong’.
Too many of the levers of power have been handed to the unelected for my taste. "
Really? Like our civil service, PM, Foreign Secretary, House of Lords, and monarchy? Got to hate those unelected people...
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So I voted for Brexit but not for any of the bullshit reasons that get trotted out about Farage etc. I think Farage is a complete knob head and couldn’t care less about all the jingoistic BS from the Tory right.
I voted because I could not (and still cannot) understand how the EU can survive in its present form unless it becomes a single unified government with all encompassing fiscal policies. A single currency _only_ works if the area it encompasses is economically aligned or has the power to offset monetary disturbances with huge fiscal transfers. Practically that requires a unified government. It is actually debatable as to whether sterling is actually too large for the different economic areas of the UK.
The events of Black Wednesday in 1992 very clearly show that the economic requirements and timings of the largest economies in Europe (namely the UK and Germany) are not aligned and that a single currency area covering them is not sustainable. Despite being over 30 years ago nothing has changed substantially from an economic perspective and any attempts to combine the UK and Germany under a single monetary policy would suffer the same problems now. This was very evident in the responses to the events of 2008 and the Greek crisis where southern Europe and Ireland were clearly shown to have fundamentally different economic requirements to the North (Germany, Scandis, Benelux etc) and that their economies couldn’t handle it.
The UK will _never_ be able to join a monetary union with Germany. It is just not possible from an economic alignment perspective and no amount of political wishful thinking will change that.
I voted out to ensure that no one comes along with wishful political thinking in the future and tries to change that. I knew very well there would be economic hardships from the decision to leave but those would be short to medium term and would not expose us to the problems when the Euro becomes unsustainable.
I think it is sad that the idea of an economic free trade area was lost and the Euro was taken too far. It is sad that movement of people has been restricted. That does not change how we the fact that an ever increasing currency area will require a unified European government and the UK could never be a full member of that as long as Germany is also in it.
If you could demonstrate to me that the UK and Germany would be able to _viably_ coexist in a single currency zone then I would be there like a shot. |
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" Leave the ECHR and actually be sovereign
Surely you're just trolling?
Surely you don’t want to be told what to do and what to say by unelected authoritarians in another country?"
Surely you don't still believe that was the case?? After everything that's happened since that proved we always had that, not to mention we have always had the veto and the ELECTED MEP's (yes thats right, we ELECTED our representatives) we put in place could have used that veto at any change anything we didn't want. |
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"Not to go all James O'Brien (of LBC fame) - but I'm genuinely interested in knowing from my fellow Fabbers: How is Brexit treating you? Although it'll most likely never happen in our lifetimes, for the good of the country, should we rejoin?"
why what’s the point we would be in exactly the same place being part of or being separated from Europe. It’s a closed door let’s crack on a deal with the issues we have like being able to ought the current heads of the Bank of England who clearly have gone mad ( sorry wa t to be richer before they retire )
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"Restricted my freedom to travel with the 90 day rule. My bank charges for my French account increased dramatically to €360 a year.
I could go on. "
I’m not really sure that impacts the whole country and ofcourse you could travel more just outside of Europe |
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"Personally speaking as a construction worker it's been great,due to the lack of cheap foreign labour, work is in a plentiful supply and wages have been steadily increasing.
I'm now earning almost as much as I did before the credit crunch in 2010
The flip side as someone trying to get a builder for major renovation work is that I cannot find one for love nor money
The skills shortage is due to lack of investment and training by companies who previously would have employed cheap Eastern European labour instead of training up new staff this is another Tory thing.
You'll notice that I've not said crap foreign labour as I've met many really good hardworking Polish worker's."
In construction myself and half agree.
Materials became a massive issue for a lot of the big companies and lots of small to medium sized ones have folded as they couldn't get either the resources or labour to do the jobs that they were tendering for.
Agree on the training and skills shortage side too but that'd just the crapness of the government to step in and regulate the post school adult learning pathways.
A lot of people in various walks of life lost their jobs during the pandemic and would have had a great lifeline if there was a properly structured and regulated pathways for older adults into a trade industry rather than chancing on independent centres or schools which appear in the news for ripping off their students more often than not. |
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Our disgraceful politicians have fucked BREXIT up for us, after promising to do it properly. That being said I’m still happy that we are not in the EU, and am hopeful that Reform UK will soon get a foothold in British politics. They are the only party I trust to do the job properly. |
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"Not to go all James O'Brien (of LBC fame) - but I'm genuinely interested in knowing from my fellow Fabbers: How is Brexit treating you? Although it'll most likely never happen in our lifetimes, for the good of the country, should we rejoin?"
It’s bad you can’t live & work easily in Europe anymore but the digital nomad visa fixes this now so don’t really care. |
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Wow! So some people still can’t see that the technological and commercial advantages of being part of the EU far outweigh the benefits of sovereignty eh! How many truly worthwhile trade deals will the UK make when faced with the unified grouping of our 27 nearest competitors….theres no comparison! As for the flag waving patriots who pursued Brexit so mindlessly in my opinion they are quite frankly treacherous and should be tried in a court of law for treason!
The damage they have done to our country and economy will far outlive their embittered little lives. |
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"Our disgraceful politicians have fucked BREXIT up for us, after promising to do it properly. That being said I’m still happy that we are not in the EU, and am hopeful that Reform UK will soon get a foothold in British politics. They are the only party I trust to do the job properly."
What Reform UK policies are you most excited about? |
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"To be the world’s fourth largest exporter, as a relatively small country, suggests we’re doing fine. Shame the Tories blew the opportunity to do Brexit properly.
How do you suggest they should have done it properly?
Leave the ECHR and actually be sovereign "
Are you a parody? |
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"Our disgraceful politicians have fucked BREXIT up for us, after promising to do it properly. That being said I’m still happy that we are not in the EU, and am hopeful that Reform UK will soon get a foothold in British politics. They are the only party I trust to do the job properly.
What Reform UK policies are you most excited about?"
This won't get an answer. |
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"Our disgraceful politicians have fucked BREXIT up for us, after promising to do it properly. That being said I’m still happy that we are not in the EU, and am hopeful that Reform UK will soon get a foothold in British politics. They are the only party I trust to do the job properly.
What Reform UK policies are you most excited about?
This won't get an answer."
Maybe the stuff about more racist teachers. Or that science isn't real? |
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" If you could demonstrate to me that the UK and Germany would be able to _viably_ coexist in a single currency zone then I would be there like a shot."
Pretty much the same way London and some of the most economically deprived parts of this nation coexist. |
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"Wow! So some people still can’t see that the technological and commercial advantages of being part of the EU far outweigh the benefits of sovereignty eh! How many truly worthwhile trade deals will the UK make when faced with the unified grouping of our 27 nearest competitors….theres no comparison! As for the flag waving patriots who pursued Brexit so mindlessly in my opinion they are quite frankly treacherous and should be tried in a court of law for treason!
The damage they have done to our country and economy will far outlive their embittered little lives."
 apart from the fact that my vote wasn’t cast due to sovereignty, trade deals or some bullshit right wing jingoistic politics. Maybe you could tell me why I am wrong in my analysis? |
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" If you could demonstrate to me that the UK and Germany would be able to _viably_ coexist in a single currency zone then I would be there like a shot.
Pretty much the same way London and some of the most economically deprived parts of this nation coexist. "
Because they have a single unified government with a single fiscal policy
The problem is what happens when you get two economically prosperous countries that need fundamentally different monetary policies. There is pretty much no government that can do fiscal transfers between the UK and Germany at the scale that would be needed. That’s leaving aside the obvious question as to what monetary policy would actually be followed to reconcile the two and which economy would take priority when they diverge. |
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Brexit was sold on lies. The money to the NHS and immigration being the two most notable.
Thing is with anything else,if you are sold something based on lies, you can return it for a full refund.
So why do we have to pit up with this shite. Let's demand our 'refund' and just reset things back to how they were.
Cannot believe we have to carry on with it.
Mrs x |
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"Brexit was sold on lies. The money to the NHS and immigration being the two most notable.
Thing is with anything else,if you are sold something based on lies, you can return it for a full refund.
So why do we have to pit up with this shite. Let's demand our 'refund' and just reset things back to how they were.
Cannot believe we have to carry on with it.
Mrs x"
Rejoining would be a long process. We'd never get back the privileges we had before. Simply rejoining wouldn't magically undo all the damage done.
What we actually need to do, is the opposite of what was done before the referendum. Look into what it would actually mean to rejoin, so people can make an informed decision. As you mentioned, people voted to leave because they believed some or all of the leave propaganda bollocks. |
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"Brexit was sold on lies. The money to the NHS and immigration being the two most notable.
Thing is with anything else,if you are sold something based on lies, you can return it for a full refund.
So why do we have to pit up with this shite. Let's demand our 'refund' and just reset things back to how they were.
Cannot believe we have to carry on with it.
Mrs x"
erm u cant do that there are 2 ir 3 countrys in the eu who wont agree to it also there are other countrys in front of us waiting to join, fact is if your over 40 there is hardly any chance of the uk rejoing in your lifetime and hey who knows in another five years mainland europe may well be a warzone if we are to belive the news |
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it is difficult to see any tangible evidence that Brexit has damaged the country.
We still trade with the EU with a few minor adjustments to the terms under which we conduct businness. We can now trade with non EU countries under agreed terms between both countries, not those dictated by the EU.
Ther removal of freedom of movement is another significant benefit . It means that firms must place more emphasis on efficiency and capital investment as opposed to relying on cheap imported labour.
We no longer have EU hauliers committing cabotage in our county .
I cannot see many rational people being concerned at leaving the EU.
Some posters might need to see what is happening in the real world . Maybe they need to download sets of accounts from a variety if industries and read the directors reports . Leaving the EU hadly gets a mention
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" Because they have a single unified government with a single fiscal policy
The problem is what happens when you get two economically prosperous countries that need fundamentally different monetary policies. There is pretty much no government that can do fiscal transfers between the UK and Germany at the scale that would be needed. That’s leaving aside the obvious question as to what monetary policy would actually be followed to reconcile the two and which economy would take priority when they diverge. "
Certain powers are still devolved to local governments, the same principle could apply here too. |
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" Because they have a single unified government with a single fiscal policy
The problem is what happens when you get two economically prosperous countries that need fundamentally different monetary policies. There is pretty much no government that can do fiscal transfers between the UK and Germany at the scale that would be needed. That’s leaving aside the obvious question as to what monetary policy would actually be followed to reconcile the two and which economy would take priority when they diverge.
Certain powers are still devolved to local governments, the same principle could apply here too."
lol
Strangely, monetary policy isn’t one of those things that is devolved 
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" Because they have a single unified government with a single fiscal policy
The problem is what happens when you get two economically prosperous countries that need fundamentally different monetary policies. There is pretty much no government that can do fiscal transfers between the UK and Germany at the scale that would be needed. That’s leaving aside the obvious question as to what monetary policy would actually be followed to reconcile the two and which economy would take priority when they diverge.
Certain powers are still devolved to local governments, the same principle could apply here too.
lol
Strangely, monetary policy isn’t one of those things that is devolved
"
If it were devolved then that would involve having a separate currency to enact it through. |
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"it is difficult to see any tangible evidence that Brexit has damaged the country.
We still trade with the EU with a few minor adjustments to the terms under which we conduct businness. We can now trade with non EU countries under agreed terms between both countries, not those dictated by the EU.
Ther removal of freedom of movement is another significant benefit . It means that firms must place more emphasis on efficiency and capital investment as opposed to relying on cheap imported labour.
We no longer have EU hauliers committing cabotage in our county .
I cannot see many rational people being concerned at leaving the EU.
Some posters might need to see what is happening in the real world . Maybe they need to download sets of accounts from a variety if industries and read the directors reports . Leaving the EU hadly gets a mention
"
Brutal as fuck. Let's see if any Brexiteers will stand up to your ridicule. |
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"it is difficult to see any tangible evidence that Brexit has damaged the country.
We still trade with the EU with a few minor adjustments to the terms under which we conduct businness. We can now trade with non EU countries under agreed terms between both countries, not those dictated by the EU.
Ther removal of freedom of movement is another significant benefit . It means that firms must place more emphasis on efficiency and capital investment as opposed to relying on cheap imported labour.
We no longer have EU hauliers committing cabotage in our county .
I cannot see many rational people being concerned at leaving the EU.
Some posters might need to see what is happening in the real world . Maybe they need to download sets of accounts from a variety if industries and read the directors reports . Leaving the EU hadly gets a mention
"
Ahh Pat talking about the real world, he's been reading Liz Truss' book, that is his idea of the "real world." |
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"If it were devolved then that would involve having a separate currency to enact it through.
Just like we had before you voted for Brexit "
Agreed! But the EU is increasingly tieing future expansion to Euro membership and that is not viable for us for the reasons outlined. Just as you can’t be half pregnant it is not sustainable to be in and out of the EU. Something has to give. |
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There are no visible gains, but plenty of problems.
UK was seen by USA as a culturally/linguistically familiar investment entry point to the whole EC, but we have lost that benefit. Moreover, the trading agreement which the Brexit economic saboteur politicians such as Johnson, Farage and Mogg said would be a formality, turned out to be firmly rejected by both Trump and Biden. Special relationship, eh?
We all know of the travel problems for passengers and freight and the loss of mutual arrangements for UK citizens living in the EC.
Then there are the massive difficulties encountered by agriculture, hospitality, food processing and health & care sectors. British people would take up the slack, the brexit consequences men assured us.
As if the employment problems were not bad enough, exporting firms were hit with a barrage of expensive and time-consuming red tape imposed mainly by UK, which has made a considerable dent in the number of firms willing and able to take on these extra overheads.
Taking back control over illegal immigration - how is that going?
Only the most fanatical brexiteers continue to argue that their shitstorm has been anything but an utter disaster, socially and particularly economically. Mogg and his fellow spivs may have got their selfish wish to avoid forthcoming EC financial regulation, so for them it has been a win, but for the country and its people, brexit has been the worst example of self- harm since lemmings discovered the cliff edge. |
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Too soon to judge. Who knows what might happen. If the EU were to disintegrate, Brexit might be the wisest move ever. But if the EU thrives as a federalist state with the UK on the fringe, we could be isolated. |
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"Too soon to judge. Who knows what might happen. If the EU were to disintegrate, Brexit might be the wisest move ever. But if the EU thrives as a federalist state with the UK on the fringe, we could be isolated."
So the success of Brexit is completely dependent on things out of our control? |
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FFS is there nothing more important going on in the world than whining over Brexit? I'm no better or worse off but if I was worse off I'd do what we used to do and deal with it, not sit sulking. If people put as much effort in dealing with it rather than trying to undo it they'd be in a much better position |
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"Too soon to judge. Who knows what might happen. If the EU were to disintegrate, Brexit might be the wisest move ever. But if the EU thrives as a federalist state with the UK on the fringe, we could be isolated.
So the success of Brexit is completely dependent on things out of our control?"
Could be. But I guess you could say that of pretty much anything eh? |
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"FFS is there nothing more important going on in the world than whining over Brexit? I'm no better or worse off but if I was worse off I'd do what we used to do and deal with it, not sit sulking. If people put as much effort in dealing with it rather than trying to undo it they'd be in a much better position "
Ahh. Imagine if people didn't have to put effort into dealing with all the problems Brexit caused. Still, you're right, maybe everyone who wishes to express dissent should be silenced, and anyone wishing to discuss the impact of Brexit should be locked up? |
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"Too soon to judge. Who knows what might happen. If the EU were to disintegrate, Brexit might be the wisest move ever. But if the EU thrives as a federalist state with the UK on the fringe, we could be isolated.
So the success of Brexit is completely dependent on things out of our control?
Could be. But I guess you could say that of pretty much anything eh?"
Well no, we could have stayed in the EU, not had all the problems caused by leaving, not had vague hope that something else happening outside of the uk at some unspecified point in the future might make things okay, and had our fate in our own hands. |
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I don’t know how Brexit has effected my life, would be good if it was like a movie so we could see what it would be like if I voted stay.
I’ve a feeling I would be in exactly the same position.
Personally, I’d like to stay out the EU. |
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"Not to go all James O'Brien (of LBC fame) - but I'm genuinely interested in knowing from my fellow Fabbers: How is Brexit treating you? Although it'll most likely never happen in our lifetimes, for the good of the country, should we rejoin?"
It's a yes from me. Being one who used to be negatively affected by cheap Labour from abroad, the turning off the unlimited Labour taps has helped me. My work experience is unrecognizable to how it used to be. I don't feel that the challenges we faced like inflation were noticeably worse than other countries. I still go on holiday as before and have not had any problems at customs at all. Other than work I have not noticed a difference. That said, I am talking about me and my experience and am aware others do not feel the same and may have a very different experience. |
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"FFS is there nothing more important going on in the world than whining over Brexit? I'm no better or worse off but if I was worse off I'd do what we used to do and deal with it, not sit sulking. If people put as much effort in dealing with it rather than trying to undo it they'd be in a much better position
Ahh. Imagine if people didn't have to put effort into dealing with all the problems Brexit caused. Still, you're right, maybe everyone who wishes to express dissent should be silenced, and anyone wishing to discuss the impact of Brexit should be locked up?"
Imagine if people in the UK simply dealt with current situation? Once upon a time when Britain was Great people did that or so history tells us |
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"FFS is there nothing more important going on in the world than whining over Brexit? I'm no better or worse off but if I was worse off I'd do what we used to do and deal with it, not sit sulking. If people put as much effort in dealing with it rather than trying to undo it they'd be in a much better position
Ahh. Imagine if people didn't have to put effort into dealing with all the problems Brexit caused. Still, you're right, maybe everyone who wishes to express dissent should be silenced, and anyone wishing to discuss the impact of Brexit should be locked up?
Imagine if people in the UK simply dealt with current situation? Once upon a time when Britain was Great people did that or so history tells us"
Imagine if people didn't vote us into a shitty situation, and where we didn't have to imagine what it would be like imagining what it would be like if we hadn't done that. |
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"Too soon to judge. Who knows what might happen. If the EU were to disintegrate, Brexit might be the wisest move ever. But if the EU thrives as a federalist state with the UK on the fringe, we could be isolated.
So the success of Brexit is completely dependent on things out of our control?
Could be. But I guess you could say that of pretty much anything eh?
Well no, we could have stayed in the EU, not had all the problems caused by leaving, not had vague hope that something else happening outside of the uk at some unspecified point in the future might make things okay, and had our fate in our own hands. "
You are mixing up two different things entirely. The 'problems' of leaving are economic, the future scenarios are political. |
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"Too soon to judge. Who knows what might happen. If the EU were to disintegrate, Brexit might be the wisest move ever. But if the EU thrives as a federalist state with the UK on the fringe, we could be isolated.
So the success of Brexit is completely dependent on things out of our control?
Could be. But I guess you could say that of pretty much anything eh?
Well no, we could have stayed in the EU, not had all the problems caused by leaving, not had vague hope that something else happening outside of the uk at some unspecified point in the future might make things okay, and had our fate in our own hands.
You are mixing up two different things entirely. The 'problems' of leaving are economic, the future scenarios are political. "
Not sure I follow.
The problems caused by Brexit are more than just economic. We no longer have any protection from the Tories if they wish to remove workers rights, safety standards, environmental standards (already happening) etc. It further divided the population, funnelled more power and wealth from those at the bottom to those at the top. Removed opportunities to live and work in the EU, especially for young people.
|
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"Too soon to judge. Who knows what might happen. If the EU were to disintegrate, Brexit might be the wisest move ever. But if the EU thrives as a federalist state with the UK on the fringe, we could be isolated.
So the success of Brexit is completely dependent on things out of our control?
Could be. But I guess you could say that of pretty much anything eh?
Well no, we could have stayed in the EU, not had all the problems caused by leaving, not had vague hope that something else happening outside of the uk at some unspecified point in the future might make things okay, and had our fate in our own hands.
You are mixing up two different things entirely. The 'problems' of leaving are economic, the future scenarios are political.
Not sure I follow.
The problems caused by Brexit are more than just economic. We no longer have any protection from the Tories if they wish to remove workers rights, safety standards, environmental standards (already happening) etc. It further divided the population, funnelled more power and wealth from those at the bottom to those at the top. Removed opportunities to live and work in the EU, especially for young people.
"
My point is there were always two strands to Brexit, economic and political. Take the latter. If you didn't feel comfortable with an EU federalist state and all that entails, then economic hits are an acceptable price. It's like comparing apples to oranges. |
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"Not to go all James O'Brien (of LBC fame) - but I'm genuinely interested in knowing from my fellow Fabbers: How is Brexit treating you? Although it'll most likely never happen in our lifetimes, for the good of the country, should we rejoin?
It's a yes from me. Being one who used to be negatively affected by cheap Labour from abroad, the turning off the unlimited Labour taps has helped me. My work experience is unrecognizable to how it used to be. I don't feel that the challenges we faced like inflation were noticeably worse than other countries. I still go on holiday as before and have not had any problems at customs at all. Other than work I have not noticed a difference. That said, I am talking about me and my experience and am aware others do not feel the same and may have a very different experience. "
Immigration is up just from other areas!
You'd also probably be better off if GDP was 5 or so percent higher too.
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"Too soon to judge. Who knows what might happen. If the EU were to disintegrate, Brexit might be the wisest move ever. But if the EU thrives as a federalist state with the UK on the fringe, we could be isolated.
So the success of Brexit is completely dependent on things out of our control?
Could be. But I guess you could say that of pretty much anything eh?
Well no, we could have stayed in the EU, not had all the problems caused by leaving, not had vague hope that something else happening outside of the uk at some unspecified point in the future might make things okay, and had our fate in our own hands.
You are mixing up two different things entirely. The 'problems' of leaving are economic, the future scenarios are political.
Not sure I follow.
The problems caused by Brexit are more than just economic. We no longer have any protection from the Tories if they wish to remove workers rights, safety standards, environmental standards (already happening) etc. It further divided the population, funnelled more power and wealth from those at the bottom to those at the top. Removed opportunities to live and work in the EU, especially for young people.
My point is there were always two strands to Brexit, economic and political. Take the latter. If you didn't feel comfortable with an EU federalist state and all that entails, then economic hits are an acceptable price. It's like comparing apples to oranges. "
I think you nailed it there. People who didn't understand the EU inflicted economic damage on the rest of us. |
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By *anifestoMan 3 weeks ago
dublin and wexford |
Tell me this? Who elected Prime Minster of your neighbouring country? Surely he is an "unelected authoritarian"? Yes?
" Leave the ECHR and actually be sovereign
Surely you're just trolling?
Surely you don’t want to be told what to do and what to say by unelected authoritarians in another country?"
|
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"Too soon to judge. Who knows what might happen. If the EU were to disintegrate, Brexit might be the wisest move ever. But if the EU thrives as a federalist state with the UK on the fringe, we could be isolated.
So the success of Brexit is completely dependent on things out of our control?
Could be. But I guess you could say that of pretty much anything eh?
Well no, we could have stayed in the EU, not had all the problems caused by leaving, not had vague hope that something else happening outside of the uk at some unspecified point in the future might make things okay, and had our fate in our own hands.
You are mixing up two different things entirely. The 'problems' of leaving are economic, the future scenarios are political.
Not sure I follow.
The problems caused by Brexit are more than just economic. We no longer have any protection from the Tories if they wish to remove workers rights, safety standards, environmental standards (already happening) etc. It further divided the population, funnelled more power and wealth from those at the bottom to those at the top. Removed opportunities to live and work in the EU, especially for young people.
My point is there were always two strands to Brexit, economic and political. Take the latter. If you didn't feel comfortable with an EU federalist state and all that entails, then economic hits are an acceptable price. It's like comparing apples to oranges.
I think you nailed it there. People who didn't understand the EU inflicted economic damage on the rest of us. "
I understood very clearly what the EU was about. That’s why I voted to leave. |
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"Too soon to judge. Who knows what might happen. If the EU were to disintegrate, Brexit might be the wisest move ever. But if the EU thrives as a federalist state with the UK on the fringe, we could be isolated.
So the success of Brexit is completely dependent on things out of our control?
Could be. But I guess you could say that of pretty much anything eh?
Well no, we could have stayed in the EU, not had all the problems caused by leaving, not had vague hope that something else happening outside of the uk at some unspecified point in the future might make things okay, and had our fate in our own hands.
You are mixing up two different things entirely. The 'problems' of leaving are economic, the future scenarios are political.
Not sure I follow.
The problems caused by Brexit are more than just economic. We no longer have any protection from the Tories if they wish to remove workers rights, safety standards, environmental standards (already happening) etc. It further divided the population, funnelled more power and wealth from those at the bottom to those at the top. Removed opportunities to live and work in the EU, especially for young people.
My point is there were always two strands to Brexit, economic and political. Take the latter. If you didn't feel comfortable with an EU federalist state and all that entails, then economic hits are an acceptable price. It's like comparing apples to oranges.
I think you nailed it there. People who didn't understand the EU inflicted economic damage on the rest of us.
I understood very clearly what the EU was about. That’s why I voted to leave."
Seem to have contradicted yourself there.
However I am interested in more of your thoughts. |
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"Not to go all James O'Brien (of LBC fame) - but I'm genuinely interested in knowing from my fellow Fabbers: How is Brexit treating you? Although it'll most likely never happen in our lifetimes, for the good of the country, should we rejoin?
It's a yes from me. Being one who used to be negatively affected by cheap Labour from abroad, the turning off the unlimited Labour taps has helped me. My work experience is unrecognizable to how it used to be. I don't feel that the challenges we faced like inflation were noticeably worse than other countries. I still go on holiday as before and have not had any problems at customs at all. Other than work I have not noticed a difference. That said, I am talking about me and my experience and am aware others do not feel the same and may have a very different experience.
Immigration is up just from other areas!
You'd also probably be better off if GDP was 5 or so percent higher too.
"
It may be up but they don't seem available to my bosses, certainly not in the quantities they had before. My bosses were not shy about the fact they could pick up the phone and bring in replacements. Now it has changed dramatically and they finally value the people they have. Most countries would want another 5 % GDP. The UK has for many years if not decades had stagnant growth as have much of Europe. Nothing seems to have changed to much on that though the recent revelations on exports was welcome. As said before I am speaking solely on my experiences no one else's |
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" Surely you don’t want to be told what to do and what to say by unelected authoritarians in another country?"
Indeed I do. Because I believe in balance and counter balance.
Every authority must have oversight to rein in untrammelled power. No one should be unchallengeable, for that way lies a dictatorship and they never end well. 4 years is a long time to suffer, before change can be enacted at the ballot box, and that's assuming the change is even possible and not rigged. So oversight from a 3rd party provides a level of protection if wielded well. It's better than none at all. |
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" Leave the ECHR and actually be sovereign
Surely you're just trolling?"
This was on the cards for a long time, it will play into some peoples hands nicely, while fucking the rest, well and truly over. |
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"Too soon to judge. Who knows what might happen. If the EU were to disintegrate, Brexit might be the wisest move ever. But if the EU thrives as a federalist state with the UK on the fringe, we could be isolated.
So the success of Brexit is completely dependent on things out of our control?
Could be. But I guess you could say that of pretty much anything eh?
Well no, we could have stayed in the EU, not had all the problems caused by leaving, not had vague hope that something else happening outside of the uk at some unspecified point in the future might make things okay, and had our fate in our own hands.
You are mixing up two different things entirely. The 'problems' of leaving are economic, the future scenarios are political.
Not sure I follow.
The problems caused by Brexit are more than just economic. We no longer have any protection from the Tories if they wish to remove workers rights, safety standards, environmental standards (already happening) etc. It further divided the population, funnelled more power and wealth from those at the bottom to those at the top. Removed opportunities to live and work in the EU, especially for young people.
My point is there were always two strands to Brexit, economic and political. Take the latter. If you didn't feel comfortable with an EU federalist state and all that entails, then economic hits are an acceptable price. It's like comparing apples to oranges.
I think you nailed it there. People who didn't understand the EU inflicted economic damage on the rest of us.
I understood very clearly what the EU was about. That’s why I voted to leave.
Seem to have contradicted yourself there.
However I am interested in more of your thoughts. "
No contradiction in my mind. I was a fan of the EEC when it was all about the ‘Common Market’. Voted ‘yes’ in the 70s.
The EU is about increasing political union between countries with very different histories and attitudes.
Oh, and don’t get me started on the waste of resource within the bureaucracy which for some strange reason has to move countries every so often. Nor the levels of fraud and dubious accounting.
EU apparatchiks make the PPE suppliers look like craven amateurs! |
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"Too soon to judge. Who knows what might happen. If the EU were to disintegrate, Brexit might be the wisest move ever. But if the EU thrives as a federalist state with the UK on the fringe, we could be isolated.
So the success of Brexit is completely dependent on things out of our control?
Could be. But I guess you could say that of pretty much anything eh?
Well no, we could have stayed in the EU, not had all the problems caused by leaving, not had vague hope that something else happening outside of the uk at some unspecified point in the future might make things okay, and had our fate in our own hands.
You are mixing up two different things entirely. The 'problems' of leaving are economic, the future scenarios are political.
Not sure I follow.
The problems caused by Brexit are more than just economic. We no longer have any protection from the Tories if they wish to remove workers rights, safety standards, environmental standards (already happening) etc. It further divided the population, funnelled more power and wealth from those at the bottom to those at the top. Removed opportunities to live and work in the EU, especially for young people.
My point is there were always two strands to Brexit, economic and political. Take the latter. If you didn't feel comfortable with an EU federalist state and all that entails, then economic hits are an acceptable price. It's like comparing apples to oranges.
I think you nailed it there. People who didn't understand the EU inflicted economic damage on the rest of us.
I understood very clearly what the EU was about. That’s why I voted to leave.
Seem to have contradicted yourself there.
However I am interested in more of your thoughts.
No contradiction in my mind. I was a fan of the EEC when it was all about the ‘Common Market’. Voted ‘yes’ in the 70s.
The EU is about increasing political union between countries with very different histories and attitudes.
Oh, and don’t get me started on the waste of resource within the bureaucracy which for some strange reason has to move countries every so often. Nor the levels of fraud and dubious accounting.
EU apparatchiks make the PPE suppliers look like craven amateurs!"
So would you have like to have stayed in the single market and customs union?
I'd also struggle to see any of the bureaucracy or fraud come anything near the UK government from 2019 on. |
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"Too soon to judge. Who knows what might happen. If the EU were to disintegrate, Brexit might be the wisest move ever. But if the EU thrives as a federalist state with the UK on the fringe, we could be isolated.
So the success of Brexit is completely dependent on things out of our control?
Could be. But I guess you could say that of pretty much anything eh?
Well no, we could have stayed in the EU, not had all the problems caused by leaving, not had vague hope that something else happening outside of the uk at some unspecified point in the future might make things okay, and had our fate in our own hands.
You are mixing up two different things entirely. The 'problems' of leaving are economic, the future scenarios are political.
Not sure I follow.
The problems caused by Brexit are more than just economic. We no longer have any protection from the Tories if they wish to remove workers rights, safety standards, environmental standards (already happening) etc. It further divided the population, funnelled more power and wealth from those at the bottom to those at the top. Removed opportunities to live and work in the EU, especially for young people.
My point is there were always two strands to Brexit, economic and political. Take the latter. If you didn't feel comfortable with an EU federalist state and all that entails, then economic hits are an acceptable price. It's like comparing apples to oranges.
I think you nailed it there. People who didn't understand the EU inflicted economic damage on the rest of us.
I understood very clearly what the EU was about. That’s why I voted to leave.
Seem to have contradicted yourself there.
However I am interested in more of your thoughts.
No contradiction in my mind. I was a fan of the EEC when it was all about the ‘Common Market’. Voted ‘yes’ in the 70s.
The EU is about increasing political union between countries with very different histories and attitudes.
Oh, and don’t get me started on the waste of resource within the bureaucracy which for some strange reason has to move countries every so often. Nor the levels of fraud and dubious accounting.
EU apparatchiks make the PPE suppliers look like craven amateurs!"
Fair enough, the EU has lots of problems, but also a lot of good came from the union.
Not sure how shooting ourselves in the collective foot politically, socially, economically has helped though. |
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"FFS is there nothing more important going on in the world than whining over Brexit? I'm no better or worse off but if I was worse off I'd do what we used to do and deal with it, not sit sulking. If people put as much effort in dealing with it rather than trying to undo it they'd be in a much better position "
If there is something more important, why are you here? |
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"Too soon to judge. Who knows what might happen. If the EU were to disintegrate, Brexit might be the wisest move ever. But if the EU thrives as a federalist state with the UK on the fringe, we could be isolated.
So the success of Brexit is completely dependent on things out of our control?
Could be. But I guess you could say that of pretty much anything eh?
Well no, we could have stayed in the EU, not had all the problems caused by leaving, not had vague hope that something else happening outside of the uk at some unspecified point in the future might make things okay, and had our fate in our own hands.
You are mixing up two different things entirely. The 'problems' of leaving are economic, the future scenarios are political.
Not sure I follow.
The problems caused by Brexit are more than just economic. We no longer have any protection from the Tories if they wish to remove workers rights, safety standards, environmental standards (already happening) etc. It further divided the population, funnelled more power and wealth from those at the bottom to those at the top. Removed opportunities to live and work in the EU, especially for young people.
My point is there were always two strands to Brexit, economic and political. Take the latter. If you didn't feel comfortable with an EU federalist state and all that entails, then economic hits are an acceptable price. It's like comparing apples to oranges.
I think you nailed it there. People who didn't understand the EU inflicted economic damage on the rest of us.
I understood very clearly what the EU was about. That’s why I voted to leave.
Seem to have contradicted yourself there.
However I am interested in more of your thoughts.
No contradiction in my mind. I was a fan of the EEC when it was all about the ‘Common Market’. Voted ‘yes’ in the 70s.
The EU is about increasing political union between countries with very different histories and attitudes.
Oh, and don’t get me started on the waste of resource within the bureaucracy which for some strange reason has to move countries every so often. Nor the levels of fraud and dubious accounting.
EU apparatchiks make the PPE suppliers look like craven amateurs!
So would you have like to have stayed in the single market and customs union?
I'd also struggle to see any of the bureaucracy or fraud come anything near the UK government from 2019 on."
Those options weren’t really available. Although I do think that the EU side negotiated our exit in bad faith ‘pour encourager les autres’
I acknowledge your point about post-2019. |
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By *ip2Man 3 weeks ago
Near Maidenhead |
"Although I do think that the EU side negotiated our exit in bad faith"
Nonsense, the EU showed more care for the UK than some of the UK's own people.
The EU was like a parent to the UK. The EU put citizens' rights, and Northern Ireland, at the top of the list.
Financial settlement came third. The EU cared about the money. Of course it cared about the money.
British diplomats in Brussels were abandoned by their own government. Only the European Commission looked out for them.
The EU even remembered the teachers at the European schools in Brussels for the children of the staff working in the EU institutions.
As Michael Barnier's famous staircase diagram showed, the problems came from the British government's own "red lines".
The European Parliament published its impact reports. The European Commission published its Notices to Stakeholders spelling out what a no-deal scenario would mean.
The EU has been organised, principled and consistent. Look at its timeline of negotiation with the UK. It's on the EU website.
I have trust and faith in the EU. That's more than I can say for the present so-called Conservative party. |
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By *ip2Man 3 weeks ago
Near Maidenhead |
"the expanded political ambitions of the beaurocrats (Eurocrats?) and the bloated administrative system of the EU led me to believe that we were better off out"
One of the things that was agreed by all 28 leaders including David Cameron was a political commitment that "the provisions on 'ever closer union' shall not apply to the United Kingdom".
How is that for a "political ambition"?
EU admin accounts for 6% of the budget. How "bloated" is that? See the EU budget financial reports.
The UK contribution to the EU budget in 2016 was just 1% of government spending. Source: OBR.
I expect the next thing will be about if the accounts are signed off.
Yes they are.
The accounts have always been audited every year from 1977-78. Not always favourably. Problems were found that had to be put right. The accounts were always approved in the end.
Since 2007 it has been better. |
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By *ip2Man 2 weeks ago
Near Maidenhead |
"if you didn't feel comfortable with an EU federalist state and all that entails"
Then don't sign a future treaty that would create it.
Don't sign.
It won't apply to you.
This has already happened. David Cameron didn't like something that would improve the euro currency. All the other countries except the Czech Rep went ahead without him.
The result was the non-EU "Treaty on Stability and Governance" and there had to be a referendum in Ireland to accept it.
Membership of the EU is voluntary. There are commitments. There are obligations to membership.
Member countries make EU law binding upon themselves.
It's a peace project. It's about democratic values and the rule of law. |
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"Too soon to judge. Who knows what might happen. If the EU were to disintegrate, Brexit might be the wisest move ever. But if the EU thrives as a federalist state with the UK on the fringe, we could be isolated.
So the success of Brexit is completely dependent on things out of our control?
Could be. But I guess you could say that of pretty much anything eh?
Well no, we could have stayed in the EU, not had all the problems caused by leaving, not had vague hope that something else happening outside of the uk at some unspecified point in the future might make things okay, and had our fate in our own hands.
You are mixing up two different things entirely. The 'problems' of leaving are economic, the future scenarios are political.
Not sure I follow.
The problems caused by Brexit are more than just economic. We no longer have any protection from the Tories if they wish to remove workers rights, safety standards, environmental standards (already happening) etc. It further divided the population, funnelled more power and wealth from those at the bottom to those at the top. Removed opportunities to live and work in the EU, especially for young people.
My point is there were always two strands to Brexit, economic and political. Take the latter. If you didn't feel comfortable with an EU federalist state and all that entails, then economic hits are an acceptable price. It's like comparing apples to oranges.
I think you nailed it there. People who didn't understand the EU inflicted economic damage on the rest of us.
I understood very clearly what the EU was about. That’s why I voted to leave.
Seem to have contradicted yourself there.
However I am interested in more of your thoughts.
No contradiction in my mind. I was a fan of the EEC when it was all about the ‘Common Market’. Voted ‘yes’ in the 70s.
The EU is about increasing political union between countries with very different histories and attitudes.
Oh, and don’t get me started on the waste of resource within the bureaucracy which for some strange reason has to move countries every so often. Nor the levels of fraud and dubious accounting.
EU apparatchiks make the PPE suppliers look like craven amateurs!
So would you have like to have stayed in the single market and customs union?
I'd also struggle to see any of the bureaucracy or fraud come anything near the UK government from 2019 on.
Those options weren’t really available. Although I do think that the EU side negotiated our exit in bad faith ‘pour encourager les autres’
I acknowledge your point about post-2019."
How where those options not available? It was the difference between a hard and soft brexit basically. |
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I couldn't tell you either which way. The world is too complex and since then we've had a lot of other stuff go on.
Plus, when it comes to some areas we've been dragging our heels. Eg checking.
The reason I would say negative is it's been a huge opportunity cost. This (and related stuff) has been the top of political agendas fir almost ten years now. What could we have looked at otherwise?
And Brexit bring the mostimportantthingivoteon led imo to the last n years of crazy conservative leadership and governments. Who have done almost naff all but posture in courts and lurch from one embarrassement to the next. |
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By *ip2Man 2 weeks ago
Near Maidenhead |
"I loathe the EU with all my black heart.
I loved the EEC"
That is sad.
The EU doesn't deserve loathing.
I've been to Brussels and met EU staff who seemed to be good people.
At the rally of Brits at the Schuman roundabout, a staff man who worked with national diplomats and ministers told me,
"Most of what the EU does is quite bland because it has to be acceptable to all the countries. National politics can be more knock-about".
A young woman who was an MEP's assistant said to me, "The number of checks for conflict of interest I've had to go through... There's no way there's any corruption here".
Outside one of the train stations, a Commission woman said, "We all believe in what we are doing".
Another said, "Okay so you want to be in. Then you have to play the game. You can't ask for exceptions all the time, it just isn't fair".
One of the things that has impressed me about the EU is how much is available online. Even the Commission's meeting minutes are published.
The EU now isn't that different to the EEC. There's more members. There's police and security cooperation. There's a common sanctions policy. There's a diplomatic service. There's a number of agencies.
The idea of a single currency was around when the EEC still existed. The Schengen travel area was agreed when the EEC was still there.
The whole European project has done the UK and its neighbours a lot of good.
When I look at the Official Journal of the EU where all the legislation is put, most of it is about farming.
Is that all that's wrong? A feeling? Where does it come from, this feeling?
All the good that's done and the only thing that's wrong is a feeling? |
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By *I TwoCouple 2 weeks ago
all around |
"To be the world’s fourth largest exporter, as a relatively small country, suggests we’re doing fine. Shame the Tories blew the opportunity to do Brexit properly. "
Statistics carefully chosen but not reflective of the current state of the country or the economy. |
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By *ip2Man 2 weeks ago
Near Maidenhead |
"Shame the Tories blew the opportunity to do Brexit properly."
What on earth would "properly" have looked like?
All the EU countries should have abandoned their principles and thrown away everything for the benefit of a former member?
The UK should have been treated as if it were a member but alone allowed to shut out all citizens of all the other member countries, discriminating against them in violation of the most basic principle of the whole thing?
Free movement of people has conditions. Staying more than 3 months in another country? You have to be able to support yourself.
The principle of equal treatment doesn't just apply to people.
Businesses are covered as well.
Discrimination against the businesses of another member country on ground of nationality is illegal under EU law.
Should that have been forgotten by all the EU countries, and by Norway, Liechtenstein, Iceland and Switzerland, for the political convenience of Tories?
The body of EU law should have been peppered with exceptions just for the UK?
The key role of the EU's lower and upper court in clarifying what EU law means, to make it work in practice, should have been discarded by all the member countries?
All the other member countries should not have defended the member countries most affected, especially Ireland?
Every other country in the world should have forgotten their usual protectionism and queued up to give the British wonderful deals against the other countries' own interest? |
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"To be the world’s fourth largest exporter, as a relatively small country, suggests we’re doing fine. Shame the Tories blew the opportunity to do Brexit properly.
Statistics carefully chosen but not reflective of the current state of the country or the economy. "
The statistics are a simple league table and are out there every year to cover each countries exports. It's not one of these reports that pick a particular moment in time to try and fit an agenda. The latest ONS figures have now confirmed the report. Your correct to say they don't reflect today as they are 2022 figures and as mentioned before there is a valid reason for the jump in that year. I strongly suspect when 2023 figures are available it will show the UK drop back down given we are in a technical recession, though not sure to what position. |
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"Ah well, I’m out of this chat Final thought - when the EU crumbles, which it will inevitably do, what will you wish for?"
There were cracks 15 years ago and they have got bigger. Germany bl*ckma#led Greece into not leaving by withholding money owed for two years, forcing their economy to nearly collapse, strangling them to remain. They tried similar tactics with the UK but didn't succeed.
There may well be others going the same way. The German economy is struggling coupled with their internal feuds with their own farmers and internal trading policies/supplements, this is spilling over with France and Spain too. There are changes on the horizon. |
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By *zzxMan 2 weeks ago
Kingston upon Thames |
I think the process of rejoining will take at least a decade or two. A referendum won’t be on Labour’s _anifesto this year as they won’t want to make this another Brexit election like 2019. So that takes us to 2029 at the earliest and they’d be looking to keep their majority government so wouldn’t risk splitting the labour vote with such a controversial topic.
The EU states that any new members will have to accept the Euro. I’m not convinced this has that much support even from people who wanted to remain. I’m pleased to read that this has been stated by a poster already because giving up the Pound has significant consequences. It’s not a trivial matter.
If we were to go through with the process of rejoining my concern is that it will dominate politics again and important domestic issues will be pushed aside. Affordable housing, transportation and infrastructure, the NHS, renewable energy etc are issues that we can address outside the EU and would greatly improve the quality of life.
Do I personally think there’s been any benefit to leaving. No!
It’s been a complete nightmare. I despise the Tories. I think they are evil and they enjoy divisive hateful politics because they get a kick out of it but to say Brexit has gone badly because they cocked it up and all we need is someone like Nigel Farage in charge is delusional. Anyone who still falls for his superficial sound bite policies should come and see me as I have a bridge to sell them.
Brexit is shit but we need to learn to live in our shit for the foreseeable future.
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"I think the process of rejoining will take at least a decade or two. A referendum won’t be on Labour’s _anifesto this year as they won’t want to make this another Brexit election like 2019. So that takes us to 2029 at the earliest and they’d be looking to keep their majority government so wouldn’t risk splitting the labour vote with such a controversial topic.
The EU states that any new members will have to accept the Euro. I’m not convinced this has that much support even from people who wanted to remain. I’m pleased to read that this has been stated by a poster already because giving up the Pound has significant consequences. It’s not a trivial matter.
If we were to go through with the process of rejoining my concern is that it will dominate politics again and important domestic issues will be pushed aside. Affordable housing, transportation and infrastructure, the NHS, renewable energy etc are issues that we can address outside the EU and would greatly improve the quality of life.
Do I personally think there’s been any benefit to leaving. No!
It’s been a complete nightmare. I despise the Tories. I think they are evil and they enjoy divisive hateful politics because they get a kick out of it but to say Brexit has gone badly because they cocked it up and all we need is someone like Nigel Farage in charge is delusional. Anyone who still falls for his superficial sound bite policies should come and see me as I have a bridge to sell them.
Brexit is shit but we need to learn to live in our shit for the foreseeable future.
"
Very well said, thank you for that contribution |
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"It seems like every day I hear about the ‘inevitable’ downfall of the EU but every day I wake up and it’s still there."
But then again, so is the UK! Perhaps all this Brexit moaning is so much hot air? |
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"Restricted my freedom to travel with the 90 day rule. My bank charges for my French account increased dramatically to €360 a year.
I could go on. I’m not really sure that impacts the whole country and ofcourse you could travel more just outside of Europe "
I lived and worked in France for 12years and the freedom was taken away from me by others Unfortunately I was not born in Northern Ireland or have an Irish parent or grandparent giving me the right to an Irish, European passport. British people have been treated differently. |
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I’ve debated these issues in various rooms and this has been one of the most reasoned and fair. It is a bit weird to see all that naked flesh against people’s names, but hey…
Am I persuaded that we should have stayed? No.
Am I persuaded that we are worse off for having left? Jury still out.
The big takeaway from this is that our current ennobled Foreign Secretary absolutely f*cked us up. Sunak needs to go if only for bringing Lord Dave back to prominence. |
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By *lfasoCouple 2 weeks ago
South East |
As a sheep producer Brexit has been brilliant thus far. After the vote, doom mongers predicted that lambs would be worthless and the BBC even ran a story suggesting that flocks would have to be culled without a viable market.
The reality is that market prices for sheep are at record levels, lambs sold today are realising 3 times as much as when we were in the EU! |
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By *avinaTVTV/TS 2 weeks ago
Transsexual Transylvania |
"I think the process of rejoining will take at least a decade or two. A referendum won’t be on Labour’s _anifesto this year as they won’t want to make this another Brexit election like 2019. So that takes us to 2029 at the earliest and they’d be looking to keep their majority government so wouldn’t risk splitting the labour vote with such a controversial topic.
The EU states that any new members will have to accept the Euro. I’m not convinced this has that much support even from people who wanted to remain. I’m pleased to read that this has been stated by a poster already because giving up the Pound has significant consequences. It’s not a trivial matter.
If we were to go through with the process of rejoining my concern is that it will dominate politics again and important domestic issues will be pushed aside. Affordable housing, transportation and infrastructure, the NHS, renewable energy etc are issues that we can address outside the EU and would greatly improve the quality of life.
Do I personally think there’s been any benefit to leaving. No!
It’s been a complete nightmare. I despise the Tories. I think they are evil and they enjoy divisive hateful politics because they get a kick out of it but to say Brexit has gone badly because they cocked it up and all we need is someone like Nigel Farage in charge is delusional. Anyone who still falls for his superficial sound bite policies should come and see me as I have a bridge to sell them.
Brexit is shit but we need to learn to live in our shit for the foreseeable future.
"
I think this is a sound summary of where we are. |
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"It seems like every day I hear about the ‘inevitable’ downfall of the EU but every day I wake up and it’s still there."
People who voted for Brexit are still desperate to find some kind of upside for the UK.
The "EU is going to fail" has been pushed hard for a while now in the elements of the media that convinced them to vote Leave. |
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By *ip2Man 2 weeks ago
Near Maidenhead |
"Affordable housing, transportation and infrastructure, the NHS, renewable energy etc are issues that we can address outside the EU and would greatly improve the quality of life."
But being in the EU would help. It would help all the neighbouring countries too.
Or at least, having free movement like Norway would help.
Being in the EU projects like the Galileo satnav, like Switzerland, would help.
Being in some of the EU agencies would help.
Norway is in, to name a few:
- the European Aviation Safety Agency;
- the European Banking Authority;
- the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control;
- the European Medicines Agency;
- the European Centre for the Development of Vocational Training.
Being in the customs union and not having customs delays and charges, like Turkey, would help.
I would like the euro currency. I am sick of exchange costs.
In Prague I was disappointed they don't use the euro so I couldn't easily use the euros from my previous trip to France, Belgium and Germany.
I would like Schengen. I am fed up of queuing to arrive back in Blighty.
As it is, handicapping all the businesses hits the tax take. How does that help fix the problems?
The NHS has relied on EU staff a lot. The drop in the pound hits the NHS because the NHS buys a lot in euros and US dollars.
The loss of Euratom slows X-ray and cancer treatment materials from Belgium and France.
Yes, Judith Bunting the former MEP said the rest of the European Parliament was exhausted by the UK mucking about.
Bunting said the European Parliament can't face the UK joining right now. That was a few years ago.
More recently Guy Verhofstadt said in London he'd like to see the UK join. "But don't take too long, eh?" he joked. "I am an old man".
At the moment the UK will need to show that it is willing.
There will need to be favourable reports from the European Commission on the UK doing what it said it would do, on the Protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland. |
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By *zzxMan 2 weeks ago
Kingston upon Thames |
"Affordable housing, transportation and infrastructure, the NHS, renewable energy etc are issues that we can address outside the EU and would greatly improve the quality of life.
But being in the EU would help. It would help all the neighbouring countries too.
Or at least, having free movement like Norway would help.
Being in the EU projects like the Galileo satnav, like Switzerland, would help.
Being in some of the EU agencies would help.
Norway is in, to name a few:
- the European Aviation Safety Agency;
- the European Banking Authority;
- the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control;
- the European Medicines Agency;
- the European Centre for the Development of Vocational Training.
Being in the customs union and not having customs delays and charges, like Turkey, would help.
I would like the euro currency. I am sick of exchange costs.
In Prague I was disappointed they don't use the euro so I couldn't easily use the euros from my previous trip to France, Belgium and Germany.
I would like Schengen. I am fed up of queuing to arrive back in Blighty.
As it is, handicapping all the businesses hits the tax take. How does that help fix the problems?
The NHS has relied on EU staff a lot. The drop in the pound hits the NHS because the NHS buys a lot in euros and US dollars.
The loss of Euratom slows X-ray and cancer treatment materials from Belgium and France.
Yes, Judith Bunting the former MEP said the rest of the European Parliament was exhausted by the UK mucking about.
Bunting said the European Parliament can't face the UK joining right now. That was a few years ago.
More recently Guy Verhofstadt said in London he'd like to see the UK join. "But don't take too long, eh?" he joked. "I am an old man".
At the moment the UK will need to show that it is willing.
There will need to be favourable reports from the European Commission on the UK doing what it said it would do, on the Protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland."
I don’t disagree that we would benefit from joining some of the EU agencies and it could be feasible in the near future. I just can’t see it happening anytime soon for the reasons I stated. It’s a toxic issue. Which is just really sad to be honest.
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In short no it hasn't been a success. A quick Google will tell you that our GDP has dropped 5% and has never recovered.
I hear a lot of "I voted for brexit but I didn't vote for this" funny I only remember 2 options on the ballot paper?
I voted remain and think that cutting ties with our closest neighbours was a big mistake. None of the global trade deals we have made don't make up for what we had. Farmers got land subsidies from the EU and the UK promised equal that and of course they didn't. I was surprised at the fishing industry that I thought would thrive but the biggest processing plant in Grimsby closed as it cost too much to export to the EU????? The irony!
However we aren't going back to the EU anytime soon so it is what it is. I generally hope things get better but Jacob Reese mog saying it might take 50 years doesn't fill me with confidence |
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"As a sheep producer Brexit has been brilliant thus far. After the vote, doom mongers predicted that lambs would be worthless and the BBC even ran a story suggesting that flocks would have to be culled without a viable market.
The reality is that market prices for sheep are at record levels, lambs sold today are realising 3 times as much as when we were in the EU!"
Is that a consequence of the extra duty on importing cheap Turkish lamb that used to come through the EU? I guess the question always comes down to whether you are seeing better prices because of lack of supply or is there another answer?
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