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Britain and France to lead defence of Ukraine
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"I think we have enough domestic problems of our own without getting involved in this. Let the EU handle it." No! We're not in the EU but we are a part of Europe and this is our problem to deal with. | |||
"I think we have enough domestic problems of our own without getting involved in this. Let the EU handle it." Now see, this kind of attitude gets on my pip. Yes, we have enough domestic problems, as does every Country. But when you get a Country like Russia trying to sidle its way across then I think you have to say enough and stand up and say something. If you don’t stand up to bullies they keep coming at you. They go for the weak. If the UK does sod all then we’re not making ourselves look innocuous, we’re making us look weak and vulnerable with a possible target on our back! Heaven knows we don’t have much to intimidate them with anyway, realistically, but you can’t just lay down and let folk walk all over you. | |||
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"Britain and France are the only two European countries with vaguely serious military capacity so makes sense for them to lead. Russia has numbers but with some very poor quality." I read an article this morning about the defence spending of various countries as measured against GDP. Spain comes out very poorly using this method. In 2023, just nine countries in the whole world spent five percent of GDP or more on defence. This included Algeria, Armenia, Israel, Lebanon, Oman, Russia, Saudi Arabia, and South Sudan. Most of these are still or were at war at time. Spain however has, in the last 10 years, increased by 70 percent its total defence expenditure. If we take those figures in absolute terms, what we can say is that Spain is the 10th top contributor to Nato. When it comes to total Nato budget, Spain is among the top 10 contributors, actually coming in at number seven, contributing 5.8 percent of the total budget, just behind Canada. A report from the RAND Global Studies Centre, commissioned by President Trump himself, suggests that collective defence should be measured not only by countries' spending, but by their true capabilities. This new scale puts Spain in a much better position than in last place. This system is what they call the “burden sharing index” and involves knowing what to ask and from which country, depending on specific needs. The burden ratio is calculated by comparing the percentage contribution of each ally to the total burden of collective defence with its participation in the total allied GDP. This system offers a more sophisticated and precise picture than the current measuring bar, which is focused solely on military spending as a percentage of GDP. This may seem unnecessarily complicated and confusing, but in fact it's not. RAND researcher Charles King Mallory explained the system by giving an example of one country that pays 2.1 percent of its GDP to maintain old equipment and pay pensions to retired military officers compared with another that spends 1.9 percent, but has a well-trained army, modern equipment and a cutting-edge military drone industry. The first country spends more than the two percent, but the second country is using its resources more efficiently, so it doesn't always come down to who spends the most money. This new scale places Spain as one of the top five countries that contribute the most to Nato. According to this index, Spain contributes 3.03 percent to Nato, measured in economic burden I am not claiming to have written all the above myself and have copied and pasted most of it. I personally found it interesting hence I have shared it here. Effectively, more efficient spending is better than spending more money (this applies to not only the armed forces of course) and defence spend as a ratio of GDP may not actually show the true picture when push comes to shove. | |||
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"Ukraine military 1.25 million active personnel 2.6million reserve. 5th largest in world, most battle hardened in Europe. 30 thousand Euro troops for reassurance? " And largely held their own against Russia despite their so called dithering allies delays in supplying armaments. Europe are a disgrace. | |||
"I think we have enough domestic problems of our own without getting involved in this. Let the EU handle it. Now see, this kind of attitude gets on my pip. Yes, we have enough domestic problems, as does every Country. But when you get a Country like Russia trying to sidle its way across then I think you have to say enough and stand up and say something. If you don’t stand up to bullies they keep coming at you. They go for the weak. If the UK does sod all then we’re not making ourselves look innocuous, we’re making us look weak and vulnerable with a possible target on our back! Heaven knows we don’t have much to intimidate them with anyway, realistically, but you can’t just lay down and let folk walk all over you. " That's a laudable attitude - until it's your son or daughter being sent to the front. Why is it UK's responsibility any more than say Ireland and Austria who aren't even in NATO? Given the EU's attitude to us post Brexit, I can't see why we need to be at the front of the queue sending our kids to their deaths. Let's sit this one out I say. | |||
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"I think we have enough domestic problems of our own without getting involved in this. Let the EU handle it. Now see, this kind of attitude gets on my pip. Yes, we have enough domestic problems, as does every Country. But when you get a Country like Russia trying to sidle its way across then I think you have to say enough and stand up and say something. If you don’t stand up to bullies they keep coming at you. They go for the weak. If the UK does sod all then we’re not making ourselves look innocuous, we’re making us look weak and vulnerable with a possible target on our back! Heaven knows we don’t have much to intimidate them with anyway, realistically, but you can’t just lay down and let folk walk all over you. That's a laudable attitude - until it's your son or daughter being sent to the front. Why is it UK's responsibility any more than say Ireland and Austria who aren't even in NATO? Given the EU's attitude to us post Brexit, I can't see why we need to be at the front of the queue sending our kids to their deaths. Let's sit this one out I say." What attitude from the EU? The UK called the EU was a Soviet style empire; UK politicians threatened to bomb Madrid, starve Ireland, etc. unless the EU gave them everything for nothing. You negotiated your way out of the club; no one forced the UK to do anyway the UK government didn't agree with, sign | |||
"I think we have enough domestic problems of our own without getting involved in this. Let the EU handle it. Now see, this kind of attitude gets on my pip. Yes, we have enough domestic problems, as does every Country. But when you get a Country like Russia trying to sidle its way across then I think you have to say enough and stand up and say something. If you don’t stand up to bullies they keep coming at you. They go for the weak. If the UK does sod all then we’re not making ourselves look innocuous, we’re making us look weak and vulnerable with a possible target on our back! Heaven knows we don’t have much to intimidate them with anyway, realistically, but you can’t just lay down and let folk walk all over you. That's a laudable attitude - until it's your son or daughter being sent to the front. Why is it UK's responsibility any more than say Ireland and Austria who aren't even in NATO? Given the EU's attitude to us post Brexit, I can't see why we need to be at the front of the queue sending our kids to their deaths. Let's sit this one out I say. What attitude from the EU? The UK called the EU was a Soviet style empire; UK politicians threatened to bomb Madrid, starve Ireland, etc. unless the EU gave them everything for nothing. You negotiated your way out of the club; no one forced the UK to do anyway the UK government didn't agree with, sign" All true, we are not especially close to the EU politically post Brexit. So why are we suddenly in pole position to do the defence job? | |||
"I think we have enough domestic problems of our own without getting involved in this. Let the EU handle it. Now see, this kind of attitude gets on my pip. Yes, we have enough domestic problems, as does every Country. But when you get a Country like Russia trying to sidle its way across then I think you have to say enough and stand up and say something. If you don’t stand up to bullies they keep coming at you. They go for the weak. If the UK does sod all then we’re not making ourselves look innocuous, we’re making us look weak and vulnerable with a possible target on our back! Heaven knows we don’t have much to intimidate them with anyway, realistically, but you can’t just lay down and let folk walk all over you. That's a laudable attitude - until it's your son or daughter being sent to the front. Why is it UK's responsibility any more than say Ireland and Austria who aren't even in NATO? Given the EU's attitude to us post Brexit, I can't see why we need to be at the front of the queue sending our kids to their deaths. Let's sit this one out I say. What attitude from the EU? The UK called the EU was a Soviet style empire; UK politicians threatened to bomb Madrid, starve Ireland, etc. unless the EU gave them everything for nothing. You negotiated your way out of the club; no one forced the UK to do anyway the UK government didn't agree with, sign All true, we are not especially close to the EU politically post Brexit. So why are we suddenly in pole position to do the defence job? " UK is 1 of 2 European based nuclear powers. UK is the only European member of Five Eyes Network. UK has an established arms, defense industry. Economically, UK is heavily exposed/linked to Europe. Historically, when Continental Europe does to pot, it drags UK into it...so better to lead than to risk being dragged into the mire | |||
"I think we have enough domestic problems of our own without getting involved in this. Let the EU handle it. Now see, this kind of attitude gets on my pip. Yes, we have enough domestic problems, as does every Country. But when you get a Country like Russia trying to sidle its way across then I think you have to say enough and stand up and say something. If you don’t stand up to bullies they keep coming at you. They go for the weak. If the UK does sod all then we’re not making ourselves look innocuous, we’re making us look weak and vulnerable with a possible target on our back! Heaven knows we don’t have much to intimidate them with anyway, realistically, but you can’t just lay down and let folk walk all over you. That's a laudable attitude - until it's your son or daughter being sent to the front. Why is it UK's responsibility any more than say Ireland and Austria who aren't even in NATO? Given the EU's attitude to us post Brexit, I can't see why we need to be at the front of the queue sending our kids to their deaths. Let's sit this one out I say. What attitude from the EU? The UK called the EU was a Soviet style empire; UK politicians threatened to bomb Madrid, starve Ireland, etc. unless the EU gave them everything for nothing. You negotiated your way out of the club; no one forced the UK to do anyway the UK government didn't agree with, sign All true, we are not especially close to the EU politically post Brexit. So why are we suddenly in pole position to do the defence job? UK is 1 of 2 European based nuclear powers. UK is the only European member of Five Eyes Network. UK has an established arms, defense industry. Economically, UK is heavily exposed/linked to Europe. Historically, when Continental Europe does to pot, it drags UK into it...so better to lead than to risk being dragged into the mire " There are always a hundred reasons why the UK wants to get involved in everyone else’s problems. Probably at the same time as lecturing everyone on the evils of imperialism. We never learn. I wouldn’t mind if it was making us all richer. | |||
"I think we have enough domestic problems of our own without getting involved in this. Let the EU handle it. Now see, this kind of attitude gets on my pip. Yes, we have enough domestic problems, as does every Country. But when you get a Country like Russia trying to sidle its way across then I think you have to say enough and stand up and say something. If you don’t stand up to bullies they keep coming at you. They go for the weak. If the UK does sod all then we’re not making ourselves look innocuous, we’re making us look weak and vulnerable with a possible target on our back! Heaven knows we don’t have much to intimidate them with anyway, realistically, but you can’t just lay down and let folk walk all over you. That's a laudable attitude - until it's your son or daughter being sent to the front. Why is it UK's responsibility any more than say Ireland and Austria who aren't even in NATO? Given the EU's attitude to us post Brexit, I can't see why we need to be at the front of the queue sending our kids to their deaths. Let's sit this one out I say. What attitude from the EU? The UK called the EU was a Soviet style empire; UK politicians threatened to bomb Madrid, starve Ireland, etc. unless the EU gave them everything for nothing. You negotiated your way out of the club; no one forced the UK to do anyway the UK government didn't agree with, sign All true, we are not especially close to the EU politically post Brexit. So why are we suddenly in pole position to do the defence job? UK is 1 of 2 European based nuclear powers. UK is the only European member of Five Eyes Network. UK has an established arms, defense industry. Economically, UK is heavily exposed/linked to Europe. Historically, when Continental Europe does to pot, it drags UK into it...so better to lead than to risk being dragged into the mire " Fair enough if you want your sons sacrificed on the anvil of yet another European war, but I don't want that for mine. | |||
"I think we have enough domestic problems of our own without getting involved in this. Let the EU handle it. Now see, this kind of attitude gets on my pip. Yes, we have enough domestic problems, as does every Country. But when you get a Country like Russia trying to sidle its way across then I think you have to say enough and stand up and say something. If you don’t stand up to bullies they keep coming at you. They go for the weak. If the UK does sod all then we’re not making ourselves look innocuous, we’re making us look weak and vulnerable with a possible target on our back! Heaven knows we don’t have much to intimidate them with anyway, realistically, but you can’t just lay down and let folk walk all over you. That's a laudable attitude - until it's your son or daughter being sent to the front. Why is it UK's responsibility any more than say Ireland and Austria who aren't even in NATO? Given the EU's attitude to us post Brexit, I can't see why we need to be at the front of the queue sending our kids to their deaths. Let's sit this one out I say. What attitude from the EU? The UK called the EU was a Soviet style empire; UK politicians threatened to bomb Madrid, starve Ireland, etc. unless the EU gave them everything for nothing. You negotiated your way out of the club; no one forced the UK to do anyway the UK government didn't agree with, sign All true, we are not especially close to the EU politically post Brexit. So why are we suddenly in pole position to do the defence job? UK is 1 of 2 European based nuclear powers. UK is the only European member of Five Eyes Network. UK has an established arms, defense industry. Economically, UK is heavily exposed/linked to Europe. Historically, when Continental Europe does to pot, it drags UK into it...so better to lead than to risk being dragged into the mire " The point is that Europe has failed Ukraine. Half the weapons arrive late. Delays on procurement. Fannying around dithering on tanks, aircraft and long range missile use Ukraine has not asked for soldiers, only weapons. It wasn’t until March 2023 that tanks were sent. Poland offered a squadron of MIG29 but USA failed to commit to backfill. Uk has done alot of training, Ukrainian troops on Dartmoor every week for FO training. Had allies send more earlier maybe we wouldn’t be where we are now. And it is we because USA will be pulling support very soon and Starmer signed a 100 year pledge with Ukraine. | |||
"I think we have enough domestic problems of our own without getting involved in this. Let the EU handle it. Now see, this kind of attitude gets on my pip. Yes, we have enough domestic problems, as does every Country. But when you get a Country like Russia trying to sidle its way across then I think you have to say enough and stand up and say something. If you don’t stand up to bullies they keep coming at you. They go for the weak. If the UK does sod all then we’re not making ourselves look innocuous, we’re making us look weak and vulnerable with a possible target on our back! Heaven knows we don’t have much to intimidate them with anyway, realistically, but you can’t just lay down and let folk walk all over you. That's a laudable attitude - until it's your son or daughter being sent to the front. Why is it UK's responsibility any more than say Ireland and Austria who aren't even in NATO? Given the EU's attitude to us post Brexit, I can't see why we need to be at the front of the queue sending our kids to their deaths. Let's sit this one out I say. What attitude from the EU? The UK called the EU was a Soviet style empire; UK politicians threatened to bomb Madrid, starve Ireland, etc. unless the EU gave them everything for nothing. You negotiated your way out of the club; no one forced the UK to do anyway the UK government didn't agree with, sign All true, we are not especially close to the EU politically post Brexit. So why are we suddenly in pole position to do the defence job? UK is 1 of 2 European based nuclear powers. UK is the only European member of Five Eyes Network. UK has an established arms, defense industry. Economically, UK is heavily exposed/linked to Europe. Historically, when Continental Europe does to pot, it drags UK into it...so better to lead than to risk being dragged into the mire The point is that Europe has failed Ukraine. Half the weapons arrive late. Delays on procurement. Fannying around dithering on tanks, aircraft and long range missile use Ukraine has not asked for soldiers, only weapons. It wasn’t until March 2023 that tanks were sent. Poland offered a squadron of MIG29 but USA failed to commit to backfill. Uk has done alot of training, Ukrainian troops on Dartmoor every week for FO training. Had allies send more earlier maybe we wouldn’t be where we are now. And it is we because USA will be pulling support very soon and Starmer signed a 100 year pledge with Ukraine. " It comes down to political will. Europe and the EU is happy for the US to provide the lions share of the defence committment and doesn't know what to do not that trump has taken his position because, in the main, I believe they're in it for themselves, not the whole. Russia threatens individual countries | |||
"Britain and France are the only two European countries with vaguely serious military capacity so makes sense for them to lead. Russia has numbers but with some very poor quality." Poland | |||
"Britain and France are the only two European countries with vaguely serious military capacity so makes sense for them to lead. Russia has numbers but with some very poor quality. Poland " Yes, fair point. | |||
"Britain and France are the only two European countries with vaguely serious military capacity so makes sense for them to lead. Russia has numbers but with some very poor quality. Poland Yes, fair point." NATO without the US has 1.5m active troops, Russia has 1m. NATO without the US gas far more, and more sophisticated weaponry. What it does not have is the will to use it. | |||
"Britain and France are the only two European countries with vaguely serious military capacity so makes sense for them to lead. Russia has numbers but with some very poor quality. Poland Yes, fair point. NATO without the US has 1.5m active troops, Russia has 1m. NATO without the US gas far more, and more sophisticated weaponry. What it does not have is the will to use it. " Good point although about 350,000 are Turkish who definitely wouldn't involve them in Ukraine. Probably same for Greece and few others. | |||
"Britain and France are the only two European countries with vaguely serious military capacity so makes sense for them to lead. Russia has numbers but with some very poor quality. Poland Yes, fair point. NATO without the US has 1.5m active troops, Russia has 1m. NATO without the US gas far more, and more sophisticated weaponry. What it does not have is the will to use it. Good point although about 350,000 are Turkish who definitely wouldn't involve them in Ukraine. Probably same for Greece and few others." This is a game of poker where one side has two pairs, the other side has a royal flush but isn't prepared to even take their seat at the table. | |||
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"Reports that Zelensky will agree to Trump's demand for minerals rights." He'll have no choice. Just as the US bl@ckmailed the UK into loan/lease arrangements in WWII . It all but bankrupted the country for 5 decades. | |||
"Britain and France are leading efforts to create a European “reassurance force” intended to prevent future Russian attacks on Ukrainian cities, ports and critical infrastructure in the event of a US-brokered peace deal. The proposal, western officials said, would involve less than 30,000 troops and would be likely to be concentrated on air and maritime defence. Ground forces would be minimal and not deployed near the frontline in the east of Ukraine. 30,000; Russia has brought 300,000 into this conflict. Putins decree on 1 December 2024 says the overall size of the Russian armed forces is to be increased to 2.38 million people. This is not going away " We haven't got any armed forces worth a damn. We're a joke and America is laughing at us. Quite rightly. We're in no position to defend ourselves nevermind anyone else. We're an embarrassing little irrelevance militarily. As for run away and hide France? Wgaf about them? We really must stop thinking we're important. We're NOT. Shut up Stalin Starmer and just continue wrecking Britain , it's all he's good for. What a sad little island we've become. | |||
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"“run away and hide France?” Who ran away and hid at Dunkirk, while French troops kept the Germans at bay? Lord Gort’s instructions to Field Marshal Sir John Dill literally summed it up: “every Frenchman embarked is at the cost of one Englishman”" Starmer and Macron are definitely making up for it this time. They both seem totally gung ho for war with Russia. Let them lead from the front I say and we can see how it goes for them. | |||
