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Equally exempt jobs
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Should certain jobs be exempt from sexual equality?
It’s been in the news today that M&S had a male member of staff who identified as female, working in the bra department and offered to do a bra fitting for a 14yo girl.
Being male I have no idea how a bra fitting is done but I’m fairly confident I wouldn’t have wanted a bloke doing one for my daughter when she was 14.
Is this an example of a job that should be exempt from sexual equality? And are there others? Midwife perhaps? Cervical screening?
Do women care about these things? |
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Are they trained in bra fitting?
Are they competant?
Will they do a good job?
If so, I would be happy to be fitted by them.
If they're not trained, then I'd want someone who was. Not because of their gender identity, because I want someone who knows what they are doing.
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By *otMe66Man 39 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"Are they trained in bra fitting?
Are they competant?
Will they do a good job?
If so, I would be happy to be fitted by them.
If they're not trained, then I'd want someone who was. Not because of their gender identity, because I want someone who knows what they are doing.
"
Does that mean because you are okay with it, you expect everyone else to be too? |
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"Are they trained in bra fitting?
Are they competant?
Will they do a good job?
If so, I would be happy to be fitted by them.
If they're not trained, then I'd want someone who was. Not because of their gender identity, because I want someone who knows what they are doing.
Does that mean because you are okay with it, you expect everyone else to be too? "
Strange question when they clearly indicated themselves alone..
Tbh I think there will be women who won't be bothered but I think the age of the young girl for me is a no no regardless how well someone has been trained etc..
But each to their own.. |
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I think this boils down to whether people consider trans women to be women.
The woman and her daughter had the opportunity to refuse a bra fitting from a trans woman and nobody tried to force it on them . |
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By *otMe66Man 39 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"Are they trained in bra fitting?
Are they competant?
Will they do a good job?
If so, I would be happy to be fitted by them.
If they're not trained, then I'd want someone who was. Not because of their gender identity, because I want someone who knows what they are doing.
Does that mean because you are okay with it, you expect everyone else to be too?
Strange question when they clearly indicated themselves alone..
Tbh I think there will be women who won't be bothered but I think the age of the young girl for me is a no no regardless how well someone has been trained etc..
But each to their own.."
I'm not sure it is a strange question? Many people who think things are acceptable to them would expect others to feel the same way, and this was about a child not an adult.
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"Are they trained in bra fitting?
Are they competant?
Will they do a good job?
If so, I would be happy to be fitted by them.
If they're not trained, then I'd want someone who was. Not because of their gender identity, because I want someone who knows what they are doing.
Does that mean because you are okay with it, you expect everyone else to be too?
Strange question when they clearly indicated themselves alone..
Tbh I think there will be women who won't be bothered but I think the age of the young girl for me is a no no regardless how well someone has been trained etc..
But each to their own..
I'm not sure it is a strange question? Many people who think things are acceptable to them would expect others to feel the same way, and this was about a child not an adult.
"
Where do you get that from?
Tbh it was a poor question from you given what they had said and looked to be more of a personal dig..
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It was said from my own viewpoint, and I wouldn't expect anyone else to share my opinion. They can make their own decisions.
I have 2 daughters. My elder would not have an issue with a trans woman fitting her. I would be accompanying my younger one in the changing room when the time comes, to be there for moral support more than anything. Once she has had some experience and knows what to expect, it will be her choice.
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"When you say 'identified as a woman ' what do you mean, exactly? "
It wasn’t my choice of words. I could have said they were biologically male which would be accurate, but I used the term used by those reporting it.
I personally don’t think any man has any business with a 14yo girls breasts but that just me. I’m old fashioned about that kinda thing. |
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"Oh and I would much rather have had women midwives "
There was a male midwife on the ward when my last child was born but they weren’t involved in the delivery. My ex wife actually said at the time that she didn’t care.
But she was under the care of a male breast cancer doctor on two occasions, thankfully both false alarms, but she said the guys mannerisms made her skin crawl and quite a few women complained about the guy.
I’m interested to hear what women think on this subject so thank you for your opinion. I’m not a woman so I can’t say how I would feel if a male midwife was assigned to deliver my baby.
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By *otMe66Man 39 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"Are they trained in bra fitting?
Are they competant?
Will they do a good job?
If so, I would be happy to be fitted by them.
If they're not trained, then I'd want someone who was. Not because of their gender identity, because I want someone who knows what they are doing.
Does that mean because you are okay with it, you expect everyone else to be too?
Strange question when they clearly indicated themselves alone..
Tbh I think there will be women who won't be bothered but I think the age of the young girl for me is a no no regardless how well someone has been trained etc..
But each to their own..
I'm not sure it is a strange question? Many people who think things are acceptable to them would expect others to feel the same way, and this was about a child not an adult.
Where do you get that from?
Tbh it was a poor question from you given what they had said and looked to be more of a personal dig..
"
There was no personal dig at all.
Thanks for the feedback though  |
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"I think this boils down to whether people consider trans women to be women.
The woman and her daughter had the opportunity to refuse a bra fitting from a trans woman and nobody tried to force it on them . "
We both know there will be people that do and people that don’t, and that’s never going to change.
I didn’t really want it to be a “trans” related question, although the incident reported was of course.
Men can be midwives, there’s nothing stopping them, as I just said, my ex wife came close to having one for her delivery. And that’s obviously far more intrusive than a bra sizing. I’m just curious as to womens opinions on these type of jobs. |
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By *otMe66Man 39 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"It was said from my own viewpoint, and I wouldn't expect anyone else to share my opinion. They can make their own decisions.
I have 2 daughters. My elder would not have an issue with a trans woman fitting her. I would be accompanying my younger one in the changing room when the time comes, to be there for moral support more than anything. Once she has had some experience and knows what to expect, it will be her choice.
"
That is fair. |
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"I think this boils down to whether people consider trans women to be women.
The woman and her daughter had the opportunity to refuse a bra fitting from a trans woman and nobody tried to force it on them .
We both know there will be people that do and people that don’t, and that’s never going to change.
I didn’t really want it to be a “trans” related question, although the incident reported was of course.
Men can be midwives, there’s nothing stopping them, as I just said, my ex wife came close to having one for her delivery. And that’s obviously far more intrusive than a bra sizing. I’m just curious as to womens opinions on these type of jobs. "
So long as they are qualified in what they're doing, for me it's not a problem. First born I had a male consultant and I needed an internal exam due to complications.
Having had a multitude of smear tests and what have you, I am past caring on the biological sex or the gender identity of the person, it's about their credentials and ability. |
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By *AJMLKTV/TS 39 weeks ago
Burley |
Like it or not, we live in a multi cultural UK. A Muslim woman or orthodox Jewish woman would not use a facility where there's a likelihood that a male would see them in a state of undress. We shouldn't preclude these women from getting a decent fitting bra just because some very odd people believe that a bloke in a dress is a real woman. |
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"Would it be ok if it was a woman identifying as a man?
When you say 'identifying as a man ' what do you mean, exactly?"
a very good question.
The op has said they didn't want this to be a trans issue but the example given said it was a man who identified as a woman.
I think that is a separate issue to whether or not you're happy with a male midwife |
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Here’s a question. What happens if a woman objects to a male midwife? I’m gonna guess they get assigned a female. After all there’s always a few on duty.
What happens if a woman objects to a m2f trans? The same? Or is she treated differently?
All 3 individuals have rights. Does the hospital management have the right to not change a member of staff just because a patient requested it? What if they won’t change the staff because of fear of a “trans rights” legal action, the patient chooses to go elsewhere and loses the baby?
All hypothetical scenarios of course. But bringing it back to the original question, are there therefore some jobs that should be exempt from sexual equality act? There are jobs that are exempt from the rehabilitation of offenders act but not quite the same thing. |
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"Would it be ok if it was a woman identifying as a man?
When you say 'identifying as a man ' what do you mean, exactly?
a very good question.
The op has said they didn't want this to be a trans issue but the example given said it was a man who identified as a woman.
I think that is a separate issue to whether or not you're happy with a male midwife "
We probably need to understand why women, in general, prefer women (and not men) to take care of them in the lingerie department. Then, to address your question, ask whether a female identifying as a male assisting in bra fitting breaks any religious rules or taboos in Islam or Judaism.
The key in this situation is to ensure that the overwhelming majority of women are comfortable. This isn't (or shouldn't be) an ideological issue, or a matter of qualification or effectiveness; rather a true assessment of what won't upset 99.9% of women.
There is nothing wrong, per se, with men, women or goats fitting bras. If someone opened a bra shop where hunky young topless guys in leather trousers fitted then on women, there would probably be a queue around the street. But nobody would be taking their 14 y.o. daughter (or religious Jewish/Muslim self) there. It's all about informed consent and implied trust. If a shop knows that they're doing something that should reasonable be foreseen to cause anxiety and alarm, that's on them.
Now this is a really delicate issue. What is a South African white decides that they don't want a black woman touching them? As a society, we rightly don't allow that kind of discrimination. That's why discrimination law in most Western countries allows some discrimination under certain circumstances. Such as only female instructors in women's gyms or only Catholics as priests in a Catholic church: a Hindu can rightly be passed over for the job. That said, it's not the job of a shop to push an agenda out as ideology on people by forcing or leading them into an uncomfortable situation. That's bad business. Society might move to a place in the future where men identifying as women routinely fit bras, but we're not there yet. |
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"Here’s a question. What happens if a woman objects to a male midwife? I’m gonna guess they get assigned a female. After all there’s always a few on duty.
What happens if a woman objects to a m2f trans? The same? Or is she treated differently?
"
We were very happy with our male midwife. However, our ward neighbours of a particular religion were not. Now, the midwife said he was used to that and would always respect the preferences of the mother, however in this case, the husband has said "it would be okay if you were a doctor, but you cannot be the midwife". That got him riled up. They might have actually sent them to a different hospital after that (don't quite remember), possibly for logistical reasons. |
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Throwing something else into the discussion.
Is the sexual orientation of the bra fitter relevant?
If it was a straight womam?
If it was a lesbian?
Bisexual?
If the trans woman was attracted to men?
Why is the gender identity more important than the sexual orientation?
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"Throwing something else into the discussion.
Is the sexual orientation of the bra fitter relevant?
If it was a straight womam?
If it was a lesbian?
Bisexual?
If the trans woman was attracted to men?
Why is the gender identity more important than the sexual orientation?
"
Nobody knows what's inside someone's head. It's what's outside that matters to the level of comfort or discomfort to the customer.
In the same way, a sweet person holding a knife and wearing fetish gear might make someone feel uncomfortable, but a sweet looking person in a M&S uniform might be a serial killer on her nights off. But the customer would be more comfortable with the latter.
It's not about equal opportunities. It's about how it makes the customer feel when they're very vulnerable (rather, not making them feel uncomfortable, scared or threatened). |
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I don't want a man fitting me for a bra (ever been to Bravissimo?) The main reason is I would be extremely uncomfortable being in a fitting room alone with a man whose job it was to measure my breasts.
In a medical setting I can ask for a chaperone, I suppose I could in Marks but.
On that basis I think there should be some jobs that are either gender specific or so fully staffed that people can choose the gender of the person attending them. |
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"I don't want a man fitting me for a bra (ever been to Bravissimo?)
Yesterday, as it happens!"
I wouldn't be comfortable with a man doing a Bravissimo fitting if they still do them by actually adjusting your breasts within the bra. |
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"I don't want a man fitting me for a bra (ever been to Bravissimo?)
Yesterday, as it happens!
I wouldn't be comfortable with a man doing a Bravissimo fitting if they still do them by actually adjusting your breasts within the bra. "
Agreed. |
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"I don't want a man fitting me for a bra (ever been to Bravissimo?)
Yesterday, as it happens!
I wouldn't be comfortable with a man doing a Bravissimo fitting if they still do them by actually adjusting your breasts within the bra. "
Last time I had a bra fitting, not at Bravissimo I might add, I was asked to adjust my own mammaries. |
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"I don't want a man fitting me for a bra (ever been to Bravissimo?)
Yesterday, as it happens!
I wouldn't be comfortable with a man doing a Bravissimo fitting if they still do them by actually adjusting your breasts within the bra.
Last time I had a bra fitting, not at Bravissimo I might add, I was asked to adjust my own mammaries. "
Bravissimo they do it for you. |
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In this situation with M&S, as far as I can tell, the mother assumed the staff member was trans due to being 6'2". Despite claims by the mother that M&S confirmed the staff member was biological male, M&S would not be allowed to disclose this information.
So, if gender identity cannot be disclosed, and neither can sexual orientation, who would you rather fit your bra?
A trans woman.
A lesbian woman.
A bisexual woman.
What are the perceived risks?
What makes you uncomfortable?
Do you need this knowledge to feel comfortable and safe?
If so, why?
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I have never been in possession of any of that information before a bra fitting. In fact most of the time the women bra fitters judged my size by eye.
Others used a tape measure and as I said Bravissimo bring you bras and see which one fits best.
How do men feel about male tailors measuring their inside leg? |
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"I have never been in possession of any of that information before a bra fitting. In fact most of the time the women bra fitters judged my size by eye.
Others used a tape measure and as I said Bravissimo bring you bras and see which one fits best.
How do men feel about male tailors measuring their inside leg?"
Would that also depend on whether the tailor was a trans man?
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"I have never been in possession of any of that information before a bra fitting. In fact most of the time the women bra fitters judged my size by eye.
Others used a tape measure and as I said Bravissimo bring you bras and see which one fits best.
How do men feel about male tailors measuring their inside leg?
Would that also depend on whether the tailor was a trans man?
"
It's a difficult subject all round isn't it |
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"I have never been in possession of any of that information before a bra fitting. In fact most of the time the women bra fitters judged my size by eye.
Others used a tape measure and as I said Bravissimo bring you bras and see which one fits best.
How do men feel about male tailors measuring their inside leg?
Would that also depend on whether the tailor was a trans man?
It's a difficult subject all round isn't it"
It is, and I'm trying to find out what's the underlying unease people feel. |
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"I have never been in possession of any of that information before a bra fitting. In fact most of the time the women bra fitters judged my size by eye.
Others used a tape measure and as I said Bravissimo bring you bras and see which one fits best.
How do men feel about male tailors measuring their inside leg?
Would that also depend on whether the tailor was a trans man?
"
You seem to be quite hung up on the trans aspect and not so interested in the feelings of the mother or the girl.
So simple question, is measuring a 14yo girls breasts a suitable job for a man in your opinion?
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"I have never been in possession of any of that information before a bra fitting. In fact most of the time the women bra fitters judged my size by eye.
Others used a tape measure and as I said Bravissimo bring you bras and see which one fits best.
How do men feel about male tailors measuring their inside leg?
Would that also depend on whether the tailor was a trans man?
You seem to be quite hung up on the trans aspect and not so interested in the feelings of the mother or the girl.
So simple question, is measuring a 14yo girls breasts a suitable job for a man in your opinion?
"
A trans woman, yes, why not? Mother present to chaperone if needed.
Nothing in the reported incident suggests that the employee was going to measure the teenager, they asked if the mother and daughter needed assistance. Mother assumed the gender identity of the employee and complained.
Absolutely, if they felt uncomfortable, they can take their business elsewhere.
As I've stated, I'm trying to figure out why people are concerned by this incident. What is it about trans women that's so terrifying?!
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"I have never been in possession of any of that information before a bra fitting. In fact most of the time the women bra fitters judged my size by eye.
Others used a tape measure and as I said Bravissimo bring you bras and see which one fits best.
How do men feel about male tailors measuring their inside leg?
Would that also depend on whether the tailor was a trans man?
You seem to be quite hung up on the trans aspect and not so interested in the feelings of the mother or the girl.
So simple question, is measuring a 14yo girls breasts a suitable job for a man in your opinion?
"
That's probably because you used the example of a trans woman working in a traditionally woman's role to illustrate a question about men doing jobs that women usually do.
The whole question of trans men and women in various roles is a difficult one. |
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"You didn’t answer my question so I’ll try again…..
…. is measuring a 14yo girls breasts a suitable job for a man in your opinion?"
In my opinion,it's down to the 14yr old and the person with them to decide if they are happy with a male bra fitter. Not all bra fitters are hands on.
Also comes back to my earlier point, sexual orientation as well as transgender status.
If the bra fitting man was gay, would that make a difference?
How would it make a difference?
Trans male bra fitter?
What difference would that make?
|
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"You didn’t answer my question so I’ll try again…..
…. is measuring a 14yo girls breasts a suitable job for a man in your opinion?
In my opinion,it's down to the 14yr old and the person with them to decide if they are happy with a male bra fitter. Not all bra fitters are hands on.
Also comes back to my earlier point, sexual orientation as well as transgender status.
If the bra fitting man was gay, would that make a difference?
How would it make a difference?
Trans male bra fitter?
What difference would that make?
"
So that’s a yes then. Very interesting. |
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"Also I have just read a report which say that this colleague did not offer a bra fitting.
"
I wasn’t there so I can’t state what happened and what didn’t. But I’d imagine the M&S legal team were called fairly quickly and a flat denial would likely be considered a better strategy than an apology.
There’s no crime here of course, just the future of a multi billion pound company who’s stock dropped nearly 3% today. |
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"You didn’t answer my question so I’ll try again…..
…. is measuring a 14yo girls breasts a suitable job for a man in your opinion?
In my opinion,it's down to the 14yr old and the person with them to decide if they are happy with a male bra fitter. Not all bra fitters are hands on.
Also comes back to my earlier point, sexual orientation as well as transgender status.
If the bra fitting man was gay, would that make a difference?
How would it make a difference?
Trans male bra fitter?
What difference would that make?
So that’s a yes then. Very interesting. "
Where have I replied in the affirmative?
I have said it's the choice of the 14 year old and whomever accompanies them.
Then I have followed up with some questions, similar to my earlier posts.
Interesting that you would take that as a yes from me. |
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"Also I have just read a report which say that this colleague did not offer a bra fitting.
I wasn’t there so I can’t state what happened and what didn’t. But I’d imagine the M&S legal team were called fairly quickly and a flat denial would likely be considered a better strategy than an apology.
There’s no crime here of course, just the future of a multi billion pound company who’s stock dropped nearly 3% today. "
None of us were there. The closest we can get is reading about it in the media.
The daughter was approached by someone the mother assumed was a trans woman due to her height in the lingerie department and asked if she needed help. The mother politely refused because her daughter recoiled in horror and she didn't feel it was appropriate for someone they assumed was biological male shop worker to approach women in the lingerie department.
Marks is in a very difficult position here and really had no choice but to apologise to the woman and her daughter.
Meanwhile I hope that the woman has been supported by her employers.
I see J.K. Rowling has weighed in calling for a boycott on Marks |
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"You didn’t answer my question so I’ll try again…..
…. is measuring a 14yo girls breasts a suitable job for a man in your opinion?
In my opinion,it's down to the 14yr old and the person with them to decide if they are happy with a male bra fitter. Not all bra fitters are hands on.
Also comes back to my earlier point, sexual orientation as well as transgender status.
If the bra fitting man was gay, would that make a difference?
How would it make a difference?
Trans male bra fitter?
What difference would that make?
So that’s a yes then. Very interesting.
Where have I replied in the affirmative?
I have said it's the choice of the 14 year old and whomever accompanies them.
Then I have followed up with some questions, similar to my earlier posts.
Interesting that you would take that as a yes from me. "
Because you didn’t say no. And there’s no grey area, so you clearly think it’s ok but for whatever reason preferred to not state that with a straight answer. But if you meant to say no, please clarify and I’ll be happy to apologise.
I don’t know if your questions were directed at me but just to be clear, I don’t answer questions asked by people who don’t answer questions. That would be hypocritical
You keep talking about trans and the OP isn’t about trans, it’s about if certain jobs should be exempt from sexual equality. We’re all aware of the Supreme Court ruling so we’re all aware of the implications on the trans community if there were exceptions. But the trans aspect is a separate issue.
I personally don’t think the laws needs changing, but I’m not a woman and I’m not easily embarrassed so my personal opinion is pretty irrelevant. But I can accept that despite what the law might say about equality in the workplace, there are certain jobs that I would never be offered if I applied, because of discrimination. |
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"You didn’t answer my question so I’ll try again…..
…. is measuring a 14yo girls breasts a suitable job for a man in your opinion?
In my opinion,it's down to the 14yr old and the person with them to decide if they are happy with a male bra fitter. Not all bra fitters are hands on.
Also comes back to my earlier point, sexual orientation as well as transgender status.
If the bra fitting man was gay, would that make a difference?
How would it make a difference?
Trans male bra fitter?
What difference would that make?
So that’s a yes then. Very interesting.
Where have I replied in the affirmative?
I have said it's the choice of the 14 year old and whomever accompanies them.
Then I have followed up with some questions, similar to my earlier posts.
Interesting that you would take that as a yes from me.
Because you didn’t say no. And there’s no grey area, so you clearly think it’s ok but for whatever reason preferred to not state that with a straight answer. But if you meant to say no, please clarify and I’ll be happy to apologise.
I don’t know if your questions were directed at me but just to be clear, I don’t answer questions asked by people who don’t answer questions. That would be hypocritical
You keep talking about trans and the OP isn’t about trans, it’s about if certain jobs should be exempt from sexual equality. We’re all aware of the Supreme Court ruling so we’re all aware of the implications on the trans community if there were exceptions. But the trans aspect is a separate issue.
I personally don’t think the laws needs changing, but I’m not a woman and I’m not easily embarrassed so my personal opinion is pretty irrelevant. But I can accept that despite what the law might say about equality in the workplace, there are certain jobs that I would never be offered if I applied, because of discrimination. "
I have to ask why you used the example you did if you didn't want it to be about trans people? |
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By *I TwoCouple 39 weeks ago
near enough |
"Should certain jobs be exempt from sexual equality?
It’s been in the news today that M&S had a male member of staff who identified as female, working in the bra department and offered to do a bra fitting for a 14yo girl.
Being male I have no idea how a bra fitting is done but I’m fairly confident I wouldn’t have wanted a bloke doing one for my daughter when she was 14.
Is this an example of a job that should be exempt from sexual equality? And are there others? Midwife perhaps? Cervical screening?
Do women care about these things?"
There are jobs exempt from sex equality, including changing room staff |
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"You didn’t answer my question so I’ll try again…..
…. is measuring a 14yo girls breasts a suitable job for a man in your opinion?
In my opinion,it's down to the 14yr old and the person with them to decide if they are happy with a male bra fitter. Not all bra fitters are hands on.
Also comes back to my earlier point, sexual orientation as well as transgender status.
If the bra fitting man was gay, would that make a difference?
How would it make a difference?
Trans male bra fitter?
What difference would that make?
So that’s a yes then. Very interesting.
Where have I replied in the affirmative?
I have said it's the choice of the 14 year old and whomever accompanies them.
Then I have followed up with some questions, similar to my earlier posts.
Interesting that you would take that as a yes from me.
Because you didn’t say no. And there’s no grey area, so you clearly think it’s ok but for whatever reason preferred to not state that with a straight answer. But if you meant to say no, please clarify and I’ll be happy to apologise.
I don’t know if your questions were directed at me but just to be clear, I don’t answer questions asked by people who don’t answer questions. That would be hypocritical
You keep talking about trans and the OP isn’t about trans, it’s about if certain jobs should be exempt from sexual equality. We’re all aware of the Supreme Court ruling so we’re all aware of the implications on the trans community if there were exceptions. But the trans aspect is a separate issue.
I personally don’t think the laws needs changing, but I’m not a woman and I’m not easily embarrassed so my personal opinion is pretty irrelevant. But I can accept that despite what the law might say about equality in the workplace, there are certain jobs that I would never be offered if I applied, because of discrimination.
I have to ask why you used the example you did if you didn't want it to be about trans people?"
The M&S situation was in the news. It’s an actual event rather than a hypothetical one. Sometimes when we discuss a hypothetical situation we get confronted with “but that would never happen”. And if it hadn’t have been in the news i probably wouldn’t have thought of the question.
Yes it’s not 100% certain what actually happened and we can all choose to believe whatever version of events we wish. But for the purposes of my question it doesn’t really matter what happened. We can still discuss it surely?
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"You didn’t answer my question so I’ll try again…..
…. is measuring a 14yo girls breasts a suitable job for a man in your opinion?
In my opinion,it's down to the 14yr old and the person with them to decide if they are happy with a male bra fitter. Not all bra fitters are hands on.
Also comes back to my earlier point, sexual orientation as well as transgender status.
If the bra fitting man was gay, would that make a difference?
How would it make a difference?
Trans male bra fitter?
What difference would that make?
So that’s a yes then. Very interesting.
Where have I replied in the affirmative?
I have said it's the choice of the 14 year old and whomever accompanies them.
Then I have followed up with some questions, similar to my earlier posts.
Interesting that you would take that as a yes from me.
Because you didn’t say no. And there’s no grey area, so you clearly think it’s ok but for whatever reason preferred to not state that with a straight answer. But if you meant to say no, please clarify and I’ll be happy to apologise.
I don’t know if your questions were directed at me but just to be clear, I don’t answer questions asked by people who don’t answer questions. That would be hypocritical
You keep talking about trans and the OP isn’t about trans, it’s about if certain jobs should be exempt from sexual equality. We’re all aware of the Supreme Court ruling so we’re all aware of the implications on the trans community if there were exceptions. But the trans aspect is a separate issue.
I personally don’t think the laws needs changing, but I’m not a woman and I’m not easily embarrassed so my personal opinion is pretty irrelevant. But I can accept that despite what the law might say about equality in the workplace, there are certain jobs that I would never be offered if I applied, because of discrimination.
I have to ask why you used the example you did if you didn't want it to be about trans people?
The M&S situation was in the news. It’s an actual event rather than a hypothetical one. Sometimes when we discuss a hypothetical situation we get confronted with “but that would never happen”. And if it hadn’t have been in the news i probably wouldn’t have thought of the question.
Yes it’s not 100% certain what actually happened and we can all choose to believe whatever version of events we wish. But for the purposes of my question it doesn’t really matter what happened. We can still discuss it surely?
"
Yes, we can and are discussing it.
I'm not believing any version of events |
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"I'm not believing any version of events"
That part of my post was not directed at any individual. There’s usually more than one side to any story, especially one in MSM, and the truth is so often somewhere in between |
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"Should certain jobs be exempt from sexual equality?
[sic]
Is this an example of a job that should be exempt from sexual equality? And are there others? Midwife perhaps? Cervical screening?
"
So, should the same thing apply to doctors? Only female doctor can attend to female patients, and only male doctos for male ones? What if, as a man, I need an ambulance, and when it arrives is staffed by female paramedics? Can i refuse and demand an appology?
This whole thing is fuelled by toxic feminist propoganda. These man hating women demaning single sex spaces and services for women and girls, while refusing the sme for men and boys.
If someone is trained to do a job, then they should be allowed to do that job. |
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By (user no longer on site) 39 weeks ago
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"Should certain jobs be exempt from sexual equality?
It’s been in the news today that M&S had a male member of staff who identified as female, working in the bra department and offered to do a bra fitting for a 14yo girl.
Being male I have no idea how a bra fitting is done but I’m fairly confident I wouldn’t have wanted a bloke doing one for my daughter when she was 14.
Is this an example of a job that should be exempt from sexual equality? And are there others? Midwife perhaps? Cervical screening?
Do women care about these things?"
No they didn't offer to do a bra fitting.
They offered help.
If you want a bra fitting you book and qualified person is supplied.
You need to read better material |
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"Should certain jobs be exempt from sexual equality?
[sic]
Is this an example of a job that should be exempt from sexual equality? And are there others? Midwife perhaps? Cervical screening?
So, should the same thing apply to doctors? Only female doctor can attend to female patients, and only male doctos for male ones? What if, as a man, I need an ambulance, and when it arrives is staffed by female paramedics? Can i refuse and demand an appology?
This whole thing is fuelled by toxic feminist propoganda. These man hating women demaning single sex spaces and services for women and girls, while refusing the sme for men and boys.
If someone is trained to do a job, then they should be allowed to do that job. "
Let me give you a real world example that some here may not believe….
For nearly 20 years I was a photographer at university graduation ceremonies. Photo studios set up on site to take formal photographs of graduates and their families. Anywhere between 2 and 16 studios depending on the number of grads.
All photographers went through the same training so whilst some were better than others at setting up the family groups and some could work faster than others, they could all work above the basic level required by the company.
Yet managers, of which I was one, were often asked, and sometimes demanded of, for a family to be photographed by a female photographer because they didn’t want a man “looking” at them.
And sometimes when their turn meant they were sent to a female photographer, they would ask for a male photographer and the reasons for this request were always either racist or sexist, very often both.
We would often be asked to clear the room of all other people, staff and customers, so that a face covering could be removed with zero risk of anyone other than the female photographer seeing them. Even when explaining that as a manager I will have to review the photographs and for health and safety reasons I could not leave a member of staff alone in the room, their request remained unchanged.
The company had no “official” policy on this but it was made clear unofficially that if you wanted the work (all staff including managers were freelancers) you would comply. So as a manager if a customer was to say “I don’t want a white woman…..” (and yes I had that said to me) we were expected to comply.
So whilst I get what’s said about “if you’re qualified”, for some people there’s clearly more to it. |
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"Should certain jobs be exempt from sexual equality?
[sic]
Is this an example of a job that should be exempt from sexual equality? And are there others? Midwife perhaps? Cervical screening?
So, should the same thing apply to doctors? Only female doctor can attend to female patients, and only male doctos for male ones? What if, as a man, I need an ambulance, and when it arrives is staffed by female paramedics? Can i refuse and demand an appology?
This whole thing is fuelled by toxic feminist propoganda. These man hating women demaning single sex spaces and services for women and girls, while refusing the sme for men and boys.
If someone is trained to do a job, then they should be allowed to do that job. "
Can you explain what your understanding of toxic feminism is, please? |
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Can you explain what your understanding of toxic feminism is, please? "
I think he means when women ask for the things they want.
Those uppity females. Why can't they just put up with their lot in silence? Haven't men given them enough? |
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".
Can you explain what your understanding of toxic feminism is, please?
I think he means when women ask for the things they want.
Those uppity females. Why can't they just put up with their lot in silence? Haven't men given them enough?"
Like syphilis, gonorrhea, trauma, injury, death, you mean? |
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".
Can you explain what your understanding of toxic feminism is, please?
I think he means when women ask for the things they want.
Those uppity females. Why can't they just put up with their lot in silence? Haven't men given them enough?
Like syphilis, gonorrhea, trauma, injury, death, you mean? "
Gosh, you men-hating women are so ungrateful. Isn't it worth a few VDs to be married to someone who buys you flowers from the petrol station for your birthday if he's not too busy watching football with his mates in the pub? |
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Can you explain what your understanding of toxic feminism is, please?
I think he means when women ask for the things they want.
Those uppity females. Why can't they just put up with their lot in silence? Haven't men given them enough?
Like syphilis, gonorrhea, trauma, injury, death, you mean?
Gosh, you men-hating women are so ungrateful. Isn't it worth a few VDs to be married to someone who buys you flowers from the petrol station for your birthday if he's not too busy watching football with his mates in the pub?"
Hmmmmmm. You're right. Patriarchy is alive and prospering in the UK. The women must be irrational or on their period or something. |
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".
Can you explain what your understanding of toxic feminism is, please?
I think he means when women ask for the things they want.
Those uppity females. Why can't they just put up with their lot in silence? Haven't men given them enough?
Like syphilis, gonorrhea, trauma, injury, death, you mean?
Gosh, you men-hating women are so ungrateful. Isn't it worth a few VDs to be married to someone who buys you flowers from the petrol station for your birthday if he's not too busy watching football with his mates in the pub?
Hmmmmmm. You're right. Patriarchy is alive and prospering in the UK. The women must be irrational or on their period or something. "
I mean, the first goes without saying. As for the second, I just lock mine in the coal cellar one week out of every four.
I slide her a couple of meat paste sandwiches under the door every morning, of course. I'm not a monster.
Having her down there 25% of the time does save wear and tear on the carpets and soft furnishings, but it's not an ideal solution. For example, the ironing tends to build up. |
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