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Troll free DISCUSSION
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So I, personally, see this particular brand of Tory government, the direction of Brexit, and a Teump presidency as worrying. The main thing that concerns me is that facts. Actual measurable, objective data is no longer necessary. Experts, not so called experts, actual experts who have studied and worked in their field, are unnecessary. Any opinion, as long as it is repeatwd becomes truth. People can shut themselves off in a well of information that reinforces their own beliefs without hearing an opposing argument. There is no discussion no civility, no acknowledgement that another approach to the same problem can be equally valid or that someone you disagree can be perfectly polite.
So let's start with looking at what might be wrong with the view you support.
I'll start:
The parties of the centre and left took their support for granted and lost touch with what people feel day to day.
The EU is very high-handed in it's treatment of nation states.
Clinton was an absolutely awful candidate.
Your turn. Are you tough enough to see problems in your own viewpoint? | |||
comical | |||
"Ooh thats really having a go at your viewpoint
comical"I said it was a start. Well done joining in | |||
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"It is a good OP. We live in a post-truth world and it will probably come back to bite everyone big time. It astonishes me that the problems we have have been caused by the Right and, despite the majority of this country and the US being overall against the idea, we seem to have ended up attempting to solve problems by moving further to the Right. Logic and reason have been trumped by emotion at the moment. That is something the Right excel at tapping into and have honed their skills over the years. " Okay, but you have to give an example of what the left has got wrong too. Perhaps the start of a solution? | |||
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"Okay, but you have to give an example of what the left has got wrong too. Perhaps the start of a solution? "The left refuses to consider the long term effects of many of its policies and is so hell bent on making everything equal that they refuse to admit that people are not equal. If we were we would all be running the 100 mtrs in 10 sec, have advanced degrees in (pick subjects), live to 120 and the standard of debate would be much higher here! | |||
"Some on left have a "we know what is best for you" attitude which makes them seem out of touch and remote. However it is a problem which affects centre left and centre right in British politics because it allows extremists to talk to people and show sympathy with their worries and fears. It destroys rational debate." If so called "extremists" are talking to people then they have two choices. They either listen or they don't listen, nobody is forced to. If there is an upturn in the fortune of said "extremists" then it was probably brought about by the infiltration of the Labour Party by the far left, and their installation of Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the official opposition. Actions cause reactions, this whole scenario has no doubt been bubbling under the surface for some time now. People are castigated in real life, if they voice an opinion that the big mouth PC types don't like. However voting is anonymous, and they can't control that. More and more people have come to realise that, and are using their vote accordingly. The world is changing, and the outdated and fundementally flawed PC narrative is going to become a part of history, that future generations will laugh about. To think that using guilt and scare tactics has kept so many people quiet for so long. The arrogance of the liberal types is breath taking, but their days are numbered. | |||
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"Some on left have a "we know what is best for you" attitude which makes them seem out of touch and remote. However it is a problem which affects centre left and centre right in British politics because it allows extremists to talk to people and show sympathy with their worries and fears. It destroys rational debate. If so called "extremists" are talking to people then they have two choices. They either listen or they don't listen, nobody is forced to. If there is an upturn in the fortune of said "extremists" then it was probably brought about by the infiltration of the Labour Party by the far left, and their installation of Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the official opposition. Actions cause reactions, this whole scenario has no doubt been bubbling under the surface for some time now. People are castigated in real life, if they voice an opinion that the big mouth PC types don't like. However voting is anonymous, and they can't control that. More and more people have come to realise that, and are using their vote accordingly. The world is changing, and the outdated and fundementally flawed PC narrative is going to become a part of history, that future generations will laugh about. To think that using guilt and scare tactics has kept so many people quiet for so long. The arrogance of the liberal types is breath taking, but their days are numbered." What is good about liberal views using the dictionary definition rather than the recent, angry, rhetorical one? How has the right wing/anti-establishment movement not approached things in the right way? | |||
"Some on left have a "we know what is best for you" attitude which makes them seem out of touch and remote. However it is a problem which affects centre left and centre right in British politics because it allows extremists to talk to people and show sympathy with their worries and fears. It destroys rational debate." Solution? | |||
"Some on left have a "we know what is best for you" attitude which makes them seem out of touch and remote. However it is a problem which affects centre left and centre right in British politics because it allows extremists to talk to people and show sympathy with their worries and fears. It destroys rational debate. If so called "extremists" are talking to people then they have two choices. They either listen or they don't listen, nobody is forced to. If there is an upturn in the fortune of said "extremists" then it was probably brought about by the infiltration of the Labour Party by the far left, and their installation of Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the official opposition. Actions cause reactions, this whole scenario has no doubt been bubbling under the surface for some time now. People are castigated in real life, if they voice an opinion that the big mouth PC types don't like. However voting is anonymous, and they can't control that. More and more people have come to realise that, and are using their vote accordingly. The world is changing, and the outdated and fundementally flawed PC narrative is going to become a part of history, that future generations will laugh about. To think that using guilt and scare tactics has kept so many people quiet for so long. The arrogance of the liberal types is breath taking, but their days are numbered." To me, this all indicates that people have returned to being in far smaller interest groups who only listen to their own opinions and demonize any other view. What do you think? | |||
"Some on left have a "we know what is best for you" attitude which makes them seem out of touch and remote. However it is a problem which affects centre left and centre right in British politics because it allows extremists to talk to people and show sympathy with their worries and fears. It destroys rational debate. If so called "extremists" are talking to people then they have two choices. They either listen or they don't listen, nobody is forced to. If there is an upturn in the fortune of said "extremists" then it was probably brought about by the infiltration of the Labour Party by the far left, and their installation of Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the official opposition. Actions cause reactions, this whole scenario has no doubt been bubbling under the surface for some time now. People are castigated in real life, if they voice an opinion that the big mouth PC types don't like. However voting is anonymous, and they can't control that. More and more people have come to realise that, and are using their vote accordingly. The world is changing, and the outdated and fundementally flawed PC narrative is going to become a part of history, that future generations will laugh about. To think that using guilt and scare tactics has kept so many people quiet for so long. The arrogance of the liberal types is breath taking, but their days are numbered. To me, this all indicates that people have returned to being in far smaller interest groups who only listen to their own opinions and demonize any other view. What do you think?" As I am against the one world globalist agenda, I believe that being in smaller groups is a better idea. On the other hand I don't believe in oppressing the veiws of one group in favour of another, hence why I detest the political PC dogma. How can there be a proper debate if one side are forced to be silent about what are relevant and important issues, such as immigration? | |||
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"Some on left have a "we know what is best for you" attitude which makes them seem out of touch and remote. te." This we know what is best for you attitude certainly does exist. I'm guilty of it myself in small doses. It is possibly something everyone is guilty of it to a degree. It is something the intellectual Left are more guilty of. Because they are more intelligent than the Right, in general, they develop an arrogance. It is something that several of those posters on here have brought up with their angry posts in the last 6 months or so re Brexit/trump. These posters are wrong to apply this arrogance to most on the Left of Centre, as they are extrapolating from the extreme left and intellectual left unfairly, but there is some truth there. The coldness is an appearance because the lefts (although not Hard Left or Extreme Lefts) position is mostly driven by evidence, reason and logic. That sentence alone will invite the accusations of arrogance I am quite sure, without more explanation for and understanding by the right. This will require patience on both parties side. What should be made clear by the Left - I don't know whether they fail to acknowledge this since it is obvious to most, or whether there is an inability of some on the right, for reasons I won't hypothesise on here, to confront this - but most on the Left do not believe in communism and do not believe in absolute equality. They believe everyone is created equal, they believe everyone has equal rights. That is something they fought for for many generations. The Right confuse this personal liberty and equality with economic ones. The Left fought against the establishment, which were generally more of the Right. It is human nature to want to retain individual power and wealth which is by definition Conservative. Wealth = Power. That is only usually how it has worked but where the extreme Left has gotten into power the same thing has happened, often with far worse consequences. It is self evident to the left that by accepting that everyone has the same rights to individual freedom everyone will behave in different ways. Communism is a beautiful theory that cannot work in practice. Give everyone a pound and some will save it, some will spend wisely, some will gamble it away, some will invest it, some will give it away. Very quickly you get an unequal society. There is nothing wrong theoretically with taking the view that it is an accident of birth that people have certain abilities, intelligence, health, natural talents, so distributing wealth in an each according to their abilities is fair in many ways. In practice, this is too complex for a state to organise properly, which is why the market works better in most areas. More importantly Communism doesn't work because in can have an unfair impact. It fails because of incentive. Capitalism wins out because it has a inbuilt incentive. Communism disincentivises people. It allows people to get money for nothing. It promotes laziness. This of course is one of the complaints of the right and we see them focus their attacks on the welfare state via benefits scroungers. Most on the Left are aware of this which is why they don't actually advocate a idealised utopian communist system. The Right think they do of course. In every thread it seems to come out that they do not understand that there is a huge spectrum of Socialism and Social Democracy. The hard left in the uk number a few thousand. The majority in this country want capitalism with a huge dollop of socialism. They don't want to make society totally equal economically, because that would be unfair and stunt progress, but they want to make it MORE equal. What they recognise is that Marx was right in his critique of capitalism, if not his theoretical solutions. He was right that the capitalists will accumulate wealth and over time that will lead to an unequal, exploited society. Hopefully this thread will develop. I think it's interesting to dwell on human nature and evolutionary aspects to understand why we have people on the left and right. I have to finish by saying I and others on the centre left are correct though 
Why? The Right aren't good at maths, logic and evidence. | |||
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"Definitely peaceful in here now. I guess people are only interested if they get to shout "Threads have a limited shelf life ... people move on to the next one | |||
