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Should we leave the Single Market?
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"Apparantly though, it is much more important what our incompetent, cowardly former PM said than what the Leave campaigners actually bullshitted us about. Bit like the Parliamentary sovereignty bollocks. Or funding the NHS. These fuckers clearly didn't give a shit about economics or sovereignty or increased public spending, when it boiled down to it, they would use any argument, any scare tactic and no lie was too big, because all they wanted was keep people who look different and speak differently out." Both sides talked a lot of bollocks, they were as bad as each other. | |||
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"Apparantly though, it is much more important what our incompetent, cowardly former PM said than what the Leave campaigners actually bullshitted us about. Bit like the Parliamentary sovereignty bollocks. Or funding the NHS. These fuckers clearly didn't give a shit about economics or sovereignty or increased public spending, when it boiled down to it, they would use any argument, any scare tactic and no lie was too big, because all they wanted was keep people who look different and speak differently out. Both sides talked a lot of bollocks, they were as bad as each other. "  | |||
"Apparantly though, it is much more important what our incompetent, cowardly former PM said than what the Leave campaigners actually bullshitted us about. Bit like the Parliamentary sovereignty bollocks. Or funding the NHS. These fuckers clearly didn't give a shit about economics or sovereignty or increased public spending, when it boiled down to it, they would use any argument, any scare tactic and no lie was too big, because all they wanted was keep people who look different and speak differently out." By 'they' do you mean the people in the Youtube clip? Or do you mean I'm a racist? | |||
"Apparantly though, it is much more important what our incompetent, cowardly former PM said than what the Leave campaigners actually bullshitted us about. Bit like the Parliamentary sovereignty bollocks. Or funding the NHS. These fuckers clearly didn't give a shit about economics or sovereignty or increased public spending, when it boiled down to it, they would use any argument, any scare tactic and no lie was too big, because all they wanted was keep people who look different and speak differently out." can you explain how people from EU counries look different from people in the UK please? And I love it when I find someone to converse with in Spanish  | |||
"Maybe we should see what Farage and his friends say about it? https://youtu.be/0xGt3QmRSZY" Staying in the single market would be a good objective, but it entirely depends what the negotiated trade off for that is. By single market I mean 0% tariffs on goods and services. Not necesarily any particular existing grouping - efta etc. | |||
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"So it seems as though the remain camp want to stay in the Single Market, and the leaders of the Leave campaigns said before the referendum that they didn't want to leave the Single Market, so we should stay, right? " Depends what the single market means and what the tradeoff is for me. Please remember 51% of the people who cast a vote share the same opinion on all aspects. | |||
"So it seems as though the remain camp want to stay in the Single Market, and the leaders of the Leave campaigns said before the referendum that they didn't want to leave the Single Market, so we should stay, right? " Michael Gove (a leading figure of vote Leave) appeared on the Andrew Marr show during the referendum campaign, a few weeks before the vote on June 23rd. Michael Gove was very clear in his interview with Andrew Marr that when we vote leave we should also leave the single market. There was no lie or misleading from Micheal Gove on the Andrew Marr show. I voted leave expecting that we should also leave the single market, considering the Prime minister at the time David Cameron also said on numerous occasions "A vote to leave the EU is also a vote to leave the single market". | |||
"Apparantly though, it is much more important what our incompetent, cowardly former PM said than what the Leave campaigners actually bullshitted us about. Bit like the Parliamentary sovereignty bollocks. Or funding the NHS. These fuckers clearly didn't give a shit about economics or sovereignty or increased public spending, when it boiled down to it, they would use any argument, any scare tactic and no lie was too big, because all they wanted was keep people who look different and speak differently out. Both sides talked a lot of bollocks, they were as bad as each other. " I thought that the Remain campaign and it's project Fear talked far more bollocks than the Leave campaign. | |||
"Apparantly though, it is much more important what our incompetent, cowardly former PM said than what the Leave campaigners actually bullshitted us about. Bit like the Parliamentary sovereignty bollocks. Or funding the NHS. These fuckers clearly didn't give a shit about economics or sovereignty or increased public spending, when it boiled down to it, they would use any argument, any scare tactic and no lie was too big, because all they wanted was keep people who look different and speak differently out. Both sides talked a lot of bollocks, they were as bad as each other. I thought that the Remain campaign and it's project Fear talked far more bollocks than the Leave campaign. " Time will tell. | |||
" I thought that the Remain campaign and it's project Fear talked far more bollocks than the Leave campaign. " In my opinion Leave AND Remain were a pair of bollocks of equal size and sweatiness. | |||
"Really so everyone that voted out did so because they eantd to stop people who look different and speak differenty than they do from coming into this country !!!!! For an intelligent person who has posted some fantastic responses on here to come up with such a vroad generalization Blows me away "My comments weren't about the voters, they were about the campaigners. The campaigns did influence votes though. | |||
" can you explain how people from EU counries look different from people in the UK please? And I love it when I find someone to converse with in Spanish "I'll let Mr Farage answer you. 'Nigel Farage said mass immigration was making parts of the country appear "unrecognisable" and like "a foreign land" at Ukip's spring conference on Friday. The speech put immigration at the heart of Ukip's campaign for the European and local elections, which Farage followed with a declaration that he would resign if his party failed to win a seat in parliament in 2015. But he appeared to concede some concerns raised by Ukip about the scale of immigration from Bulgaria and Romania after the lifting of transitional controls in January may have been unfounded. The greatest potential immigration threat now came from the eurozone, Farage claimed. "In scores of our cities and market towns, this country in a short space of time has frankly become unrecognisable," Farage told his audience in Torquay. "Whether it is the impact on local schools and hospitals, whether it is the fact in many parts of England you don't hear English spoken any more. This is not the kind of community we want to leave to our children and grandchildren." Asked at his press conference to justify the comments, Farage cited a recent experience on a rush-hour train leaving Charing Cross. "It was a stopper going out and we stopped at London Bridge, New Cross, Hither Green, it was not until we got past Grove Park that I could hear English being audibly spoken in the carriage," he said. "Does that make me feel slightly awkward? Yes it does." Asked why he minded people speaking in foreign languages, he replied: "I don't understand them … I don't feel very comfortable in that situation and I don't think the majority of British people do."' | |||
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"Better to keep a single market thread away from immigration or it will never come back on track." If you want the single market, you have to take immigration. | |||
"Better to keep a single market thread away from immigration or it will never come back on track. If you want the single market, you have to take immigration. " Yes, that will be the starting point of the negotiations, I'm sure. | |||
"Better to keep a single market thread away from immigration or it will never come back on track. If you want the single market, you have to take immigration. Yes, that will be the starting point of the negotiations, I'm sure." Do you really believe that the other 27 members will budge on this, seeing as they have already signed a declaration saying that they won’t? | |||
"Better to keep a single market thread away from immigration or it will never come back on track. If you want the single market, you have to take immigration. Yes, that will be the starting point of the negotiations, I'm sure. Do you really believe that the other 27 members will budge on this, seeing as they have already signed a declaration saying that they won’t?" yes | |||
"So it seems as though the remain camp want to stay in the Single Market, and the leaders of the Leave campaigns said before the referendum that they didn't want to leave the Single Market, so we should stay, right? Michael Gove (a leading figure of vote Leave) appeared on the Andrew Marr show during the referendum campaign, a few weeks before the vote on June 23rd. Michael Gove was very clear in his interview with Andrew Marr that when we vote leave we should also leave the single market. There was no lie or misleading from Micheal Gove on the Andrew Marr show. I voted leave expecting that we should also leave the single market, considering the Prime minister at the time David Cameron also said on numerous occasions "A vote to leave the EU is also a vote to leave the single market". " Leaving aside the rather machiavellian nature of Mr Gove, this statement was his view and it was his view because his priority was immigration, THEREFORE he was against the single market. From the Spectator, just after he decided to run for PM. 'But mostly, he sought to contrast his policies with May’s record in the Home Office. He said: ‘The promise to take back control of our borders. I will end free movement, introduce an Australian-style points-based system for immigration, and bring numbers down. With my leadership, it will be delivered.’ And he argued that whoever won the leadership contest must be someone who campaigned for Brexit, a clear dig at May, who was nominally pro-Remain: ‘This referendum was about democratic accountability… the principle that politicians must answer, as directly as possible, to the people who elected them. Because of that, I believe the next Prime Minister has to be on the winning side of the argument.’ But there is one big question that Gove will have to answer in individual conversations with MPs over the next week in order to have a chance. That question is: ‘After what you’ve done, how can we trust you?’ | |||
"Better to keep a single market thread away from immigration or it will never come back on track. If you want the single market, you have to take immigration. Yes, that will be the starting point of the negotiations, I'm sure. Do you really believe that the other 27 members will budge on this, seeing as they have already signed a declaration saying that they won’t? yes" It would be the sensible thing. Each country in the EU is under attack from Authoritarian Populism, most more than us, and it is the issue of immigration that is fuelling it. The sensible thing would be for them to address it. My view is benefit tourism isn't much of a problem but it should be addressed never the less. Once robust controls are implemented then there should only be one restriction on movement from within or outside the EU. Have they got a job? None of this points based rubbish. | |||
" Leaving aside the rather machiavellian nature of Mr Gove, this statement was his view and it was his view because his priority was immigration, THEREFORE he was against the single market. From the Spectator, just after he decided to run for PM. 'But mostly, he sought to contrast his policies with May’s record in the Home Office. He said: ‘The promise to take back control of our borders. I will end free movement, introduce an Australian-style points-based system for immigration, and bring numbers down. With my leadership, it will be delivered.’ And he argued that whoever won the leadership contest must be someone who campaigned for Brexit, a clear dig at May, who was nominally pro-Remain: ‘This referendum was about democratic accountability… the principle that politicians must answer, as directly as possible, to the people who elected them. Because of that, I believe the next Prime Minister has to be on the winning side of the argument.’ But there is one big question that Gove will have to answer in individual conversations with MPs over the next week in order to have a chance. That question is: ‘After what you’ve done, how can we trust you?’ " But isn't whatever Gove said just history, he's got no role now? | |||
"Better to keep a single market thread away from immigration or it will never come back on track. If you want the single market, you have to take immigration. Yes, that will be the starting point of the negotiations, I'm sure. Do you really believe that the other 27 members will budge on this, seeing as they have already signed a declaration saying that they won’t? yes It would be the sensible thing. Each country in the EU is under attack from Authoritarian Populism, most more than us, and it is the issue of immigration that is fuelling it. The sensible thing would be for them to address it. My view is benefit tourism isn't much of a problem but it should be addressed never the less. Once robust controls are implemented then there should only be one restriction on movement from within or outside the EU. Have they got a job? None of this points based rubbish." I dont see it happening myself, I think that would cause the whole of the EU to unravel. I think the Brexit case rests on the other EU members being willing to abandon their principles, whilst the UK Leave voters stick to theirs. | |||
" I dont see it happening myself, I think that would cause the whole of the EU to unravel. I think the Brexit case rests on the other EU members being willing to abandon their principles, whilst the UK Leave voters stick to theirs. " Well the EU won't want tariffs, and I don't either really. The EU will go for a deal that is good for us both, but that allows them to save face, I think. The Canada deal took a long time, but it gives tariff free goods movement on most commodities, and it has zero migration content. I think a deal for zero tariffs and sensible migration system is easily achievable. | |||
" I dont see it happening myself, I think that would cause the whole of the EU to unravel. I think the Brexit case rests on the other EU members being willing to abandon their principles, whilst the UK Leave voters stick to theirs. Well the EU won't want tariffs, and I don't either really. The EU will go for a deal that is good for us both, but that allows them to save face, I think. The Canada deal took a long time, but it gives tariff free goods movement on most commodities, and it has zero migration content. I think a deal for zero tariffs and sensible migration system is easily achievable." I don't, but you could be right. What is more important to us is services, particularly financial. | |||
" Well the EU won't want tariffs, and I don't either really. The EU will go for a deal that is good for us both, but that allows them to save face, I think. The Canada deal took a long time, but it gives tariff free goods movement on most commodities, and it has zero migration content. I think a deal for zero tariffs and sensible migration system is easily achievable. I don't, but you could be right. What is more important to us is services, particularly financial." I do a lot of import and export as I'm in manufacturing, so I have to hold my hand up to low knowledge of Service trade. But here's a starter. Canada has a zero tariff deal on physical goods, with no migration content. We could aim for the same zero tariff deal on physical goods, but add service trade with an acceptable (add detail here..) migration content. | |||
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"Better to keep a single market thread away from immigration or it will never come back on track. If you want the single market, you have to take immigration. Yes, that will be the starting point of the negotiations, I'm sure. Do you really believe that the other 27 members will budge on this, seeing as they have already signed a declaration saying that they won’t? yes It would be the sensible thing. Each country in the EU is under attack from Authoritarian Populism, most more than us, and it is the issue of immigration that is fuelling it. The sensible thing would be for them to address it. My view is benefit tourism isn't much of a problem but it should be addressed never the less. Once robust controls are implemented then there should only be one restriction on movement from within or outside the EU. Have they got a job? None of this points based rubbish." So you're for immigration control and against free movement then?..... so on the basis that the EU are saying "no single market without free movement" you are therefore against the single market?  | |||
" Leaving aside the rather machiavellian nature of Mr Gove, this statement was his view and it was his view because his priority was immigration, THEREFORE he was against the single market. From the Spectator, just after he decided to run for PM. 'But mostly, he sought to contrast his policies with May’s record in the Home Office. He said: ‘The promise to take back control of our borders. I will end free movement, introduce an Australian-style points-based system for immigration, and bring numbers down. With my leadership, it will be delivered.’ And he argued that whoever won the leadership contest must be someone who campaigned for Brexit, a clear dig at May, who was nominally pro-Remain: ‘This referendum was about democratic accountability… the principle that politicians must answer, as directly as possible, to the people who elected them. Because of that, I believe the next Prime Minister has to be on the winning side of the argument.’ But there is one big question that Gove will have to answer in individual conversations with MPs over the next week in order to have a chance. That question is: ‘After what you’ve done, how can we trust you?’ But isn't whatever Gove said just history, he's got no role now?" What Gove said is relevant to the thread when Remainers are saying on here that Vote Leave never said we should leave the single market during the referendum. Gove was a leading figurehead of the Vote Leave campaign and he said we should leave the single market on the Andrew Marr show. | |||
" So you're for immigration control and against free movement then?..... so on the basis that the EU are saying "no single market without free movement" you are therefore against the single market? "That was the EU position during the referendum and is now at the beginning of the negotiation. I think we have got used to 'EU said it therefore we have to do it' , that is changing now. I have posted my thought on what can be achieved, this is another. | |||
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" What Gove said is relevant to the thread when Remainers are saying on here that Vote Leave never said we should leave the single market during the referendum. Gove was a leading figurehead of the Vote Leave campaign and he said we should leave the single market on the Andrew Marr show. " That was then this now. We need to negotiate a deal that is best for us. My idea is above - Zero tariffs on goods and services, with manageable and useful migration. | |||
"From an article while the Walloons were holding the finalisation process up I think. The rest is relevant though. Apologies for the detail - I know that can be a bit of an anathema to Leave voters. Plus it does cite experts. " Please - why start it off with an insult? Do the post, and let people comment on the content. | |||
" What Gove said is relevant to the thread when Remainers are saying on here that Vote Leave never said we should leave the single market during the referendum. Gove was a leading figurehead of the Vote Leave campaign and he said we should leave the single market on the Andrew Marr show. " But on the other hand https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZY&feature=youtu.be So is Gove the overlord to be believed or the others? Maybe we should just ask Murdoch what Gove's view is now? | |||
"From an article while the Walloons were holding the finalisation process up I think. The rest is relevant though. (I've purposely deleted the bulk in the reply+quote) " OK, it was a long hard job, I understand that. If we don't do a deal we fall onto WTO tariffs. Awkward, adds cost to exported goods, tariffs on imported goods (and income to hmrc) A Tariff free deal is best. I still think it is achievable, and think zero tariff on goods and services with manageable useful migration is good and achievable, | |||
"From an article while the Walloons were holding the finalisation process up I think. The rest is relevant though. Apologies for the detail - I know that can be a bit of an anathema to Leave voters. Plus it does cite experts. Please - why start it off with an insult? Do the post, and let people comment on the content." I felt slightly guilty about the dig. I nearly took it out. It was a bit tongue in cheek so I then thought I'd put a winky after it. Then I thought, no. This is fucking relevant. The disparaging of experts, not willing to look at the details, not acknowledging that the devil is in the details is why Leave voters voted that way and that is why we are in a mess. I'd exempt you from that, but you've just admitted you didn't bother to look at the details sufficiently when you acknowledged you didn't bother to gauge the importance of the Financial Sector and services. So you focussed on 20% of our economy rather than 80%. What does that say about your maths and your reasoning. I'm being harsh and I'm sorry about that but each and every one of you Leave voters need putting under proper scrutiny. | |||
"From an article while the Walloons were holding the finalisation process up I think. The rest is relevant though. (I've purposely deleted the bulk in the reply+quote) OK, it was a long hard job, I understand that. If we don't do a deal we fall onto WTO tariffs. Awkward, adds cost to exported goods, tariffs on imported goods (and income to hmrc) A Tariff free deal is best. I still think it is achievable, and think zero tariff on goods and services with manageable useful migration is good and achievable," How much is it going to add to your costs if we find we find we get customs barriers re-imposed? | |||
"From an article while the Walloons were holding the finalisation process up I think. The rest is relevant though. Apologies for the detail - I know that can be a bit of an anathema to Leave voters. Plus it does cite experts. Please - why start it off with an insult? Do the post, and let people comment on the content. I felt slightly guilty about the dig. I nearly took it out. It was a bit tongue in cheek so I then thought I'd put a winky after it. Then I thought, no. This is fucking relevant. The disparaging of experts, not willing to look at the details, not acknowledging that the devil is in the details is why Leave voters voted that way and that is why we are in a mess. I'd exempt you from that, but you've just admitted you didn't bother to look at the details sufficiently when you acknowledged you didn't bother to gauge the importance of the Financial Sector and services. So you focussed on 20% of our economy rather than 80%. What does that say about your maths and your reasoning. I'm being harsh and I'm sorry about that but each and every one of you Leave voters need putting under proper scrutiny. " well, there was no winky, but thanks for slagging off probably the only person on the forum who bothered to read through all of your post. My maths and reasoning is pretty good thanks. I'm an engineer and use complex maths daily and solve pretty complex engineering, programming and business problems in running my business , so I'm not the best, but they are ok. I read it and gave my opinion based on my relevant experience and was honest about where my knowledge was lacking. If you are an expert on all these fields then you can say what you think we should do. I think my idea is ok. But I'd welcome any constructive comments about why it might be wrong or could be improved., or completely different ideas. | |||
"From an article while the Walloons were holding the finalisation process up I think. The rest is relevant though. (I've purposely deleted the bulk in the reply+quote) OK, it was a long hard job, I understand that. If we don't do a deal we fall onto WTO tariffs. Awkward, adds cost to exported goods, tariffs on imported goods (and income to hmrc) A Tariff free deal is best. I still think it is achievable, and think zero tariff on goods and services with manageable useful migration is good and achievable, How much is it going to add to your costs if we find we find we get customs barriers re-imposed? " I buy little from the EU, quite a bit from the USA and China, we are already on tariffs with them. If I was buying those parts from the EU, my overall costs would go up by about 5%. Parts I sell into the EU would go up by about that same 5% , plus the tariff on my goods that is 8% on WTO rates. If the pound stays where it is, my product will still sell at a lower rate in Euro than this time last year. But, as I've said, I would prefer a non-tariff arrangement. I sell a lot to the usa, australia, NZ, who we don't have free trade deals with and that all works fine. | |||
" I dont see it happening myself, I think that would cause the whole of the EU to unravel. I think the Brexit case rests on the other EU members being willing to abandon their principles, whilst the UK Leave voters stick to theirs. Well the EU won't want tariffs, and I don't either really. The EU will go for a deal that is good for us both, but that allows them to save face, I think. The Canada deal took a long time, but it gives tariff free goods movement on most commodities, and it has zero migration content. I think a deal for zero tariffs and sensible migration system is easily achievable." wasn't this how it was done in the olden days - before the heads of the EU were corrupted by big business to allow free movement of cheap labour - when things ran pretty smoothly in Europe and there was none of this political 'extremism', for want of a better word? | |||
"From an article while the Walloons were holding the finalisation process up I think. The rest is relevant though. Apologies for the detail - I know that can be a bit of an anathema to Leave voters. Plus it does cite experts. Please - why start it off with an insult? Do the post, and let people comment on the content." This is the problem on here ! I agree with the above ! Why insult someone this is meant to be friendly debate , surely ? | |||
"From an article while the Walloons were holding the finalisation process up I think. The rest is relevant though. Apologies for the detail - I know that can be a bit of an anathema to Leave voters. Plus it does cite experts. Please - why start it off with an insult? Do the post, and let people comment on the content. I felt slightly guilty about the dig. I nearly took it out. It was a bit tongue in cheek so I then thought I'd put a winky after it. Then I thought, no. This is fucking relevant. The disparaging of experts, not willing to look at the details, not acknowledging that the devil is in the details is why Leave voters voted that way and that is why we are in a mess. I'd exempt you from that, but you've just admitted you didn't bother to look at the details sufficiently when you acknowledged you didn't bother to gauge the importance of the Financial Sector and services. So you focussed on 20% of our economy rather than 80%. What does that say about your maths and your reasoning. I'm being harsh and I'm sorry about that but each and every one of you Leave voters need putting under proper scrutiny. " I've had several so called financial experts tell me in the past that if I didn't take up ppi then I wouldn't get the loans I was asking for.... Turns out they were lying.... but hey, they were experts, rights, and experts don't lie? | |||
" well, there was no winky, but thanks for slagging off probably the only person on the forum who bothered to read through all of your post. My maths and reasoning is pretty good thanks. I'm an engineer and use complex maths daily and solve pretty complex engineering, programming and business problems in running my business , so I'm not the best, but they are ok. I read it and gave my opinion based on my relevant experience and was honest about where my knowledge was lacking. If you are an expert on all these fields then you can say what you think we should do. I think my idea is ok. But I'd welcome any constructive comments about why it might be wrong or could be improved., or completely different ideas. " I apologise. It's really not personal. There are many awful things about the EU and there will be some good things about leaving, under whatever terms we operate. In your particular case I can see why the choice you made is almost a no brainer. The only question mark I would put over it is that if the economy is damaged as a whole, if people have a bit less in their pockets due to inflation and the cost of imports, if the service sector is hit which most people are in, then that will have a big knock on effect and eventually that will affect you. | |||
" I buy little from the EU, quite a bit from the USA and China, we are already on tariffs with them. If I was buying those parts from the EU, my overall costs would go up by about 5%. Parts I sell into the EU would go up by about that same 5% , plus the tariff on my goods that is 8% on WTO rates. If the pound stays where it is, my product will still sell at a lower rate in Euro than this time last year. But, as I've said, I would prefer a non-tariff arrangement. I sell a lot to the usa, australia, NZ, who we don't have free trade deals with and that all works fine." If under the current system things work fine, why change? | |||
"From an article while the Walloons were holding the finalisation process up I think. The rest is relevant though. (I've purposely deleted the bulk in the reply+quote) OK, it was a long hard job, I understand that. If we don't do a deal we fall onto WTO tariffs. Awkward, adds cost to exported goods, tariffs on imported goods (and income to hmrc) A Tariff free deal is best. I still think it is achievable, and think zero tariff on goods and services with manageable useful migration is good and achievable," It has already been explained by the European Commission though, first we leave, then we can start talking about trade. In those intervening years there will be tariffs. | |||
"From an article while the Walloons were holding the finalisation process up I think. The rest is relevant though. Apologies for the detail - I know that can be a bit of an anathema to Leave voters. Plus it does cite experts. Please - why start it off with an insult? Do the post, and let people comment on the content. I felt slightly guilty about the dig. I nearly took it out. It was a bit tongue in cheek so I then thought I'd put a winky after it. Then I thought, no. This is fucking relevant. The disparaging of experts, not willing to look at the details, not acknowledging that the devil is in the details is why Leave voters voted that way and that is why we are in a mess. I'd exempt you from that, but you've just admitted you didn't bother to look at the details sufficiently when you acknowledged you didn't bother to gauge the importance of the Financial Sector and services. So you focussed on 20% of our economy rather than 80%. What does that say about your maths and your reasoning. I'm being harsh and I'm sorry about that but each and every one of you Leave voters need putting under proper scrutiny. I've had several so called financial experts tell me in the past that if I didn't take up ppi then I wouldn't get the loans I was asking for.... Turns out they were lying.... but hey, they were experts, rights, and experts don't lie?" I think you'll find that they were probably salesmen actually. | |||
" It has already been explained by the European Commission though, first we leave, then we can start talking about trade. In those intervening years there will be tariffs." My understanding is we invoke a50 then we talk about detail in the following 2 years. If no deal is done then its wto tariffs. They don't want tariffs any more than us. (Probably less so as we have a negative balance of rade) | |||
" It has already been explained by the European Commission though, first we leave, then we can start talking about trade. In those intervening years there will be tariffs. My understanding is we invoke a50 then we talk about detail in the following 2 years. If no deal is done then its wto tariffs. They don't want tariffs any more than us. (Probably less so as we have a negative balance of rade)" That's not what the commission have said. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36682735 | |||
" I buy little from the EU, quite a bit from the USA and China, we are already on tariffs with them. If I was buying those parts from the EU, my overall costs would go up by about 5%. Parts I sell into the EU would go up by about that same 5% , plus the tariff on my goods that is 8% on WTO rates. If the pound stays where it is, my product will still sell at a lower rate in Euro than this time last year. But, as I've said, I would prefer a non-tariff arrangement. I sell a lot to the usa, australia, NZ, who we don't have free trade deals with and that all works fine. If under the current system things work fine, why change?" I mean the usa, aus, nz works fine in my business on wto tariffs. Its not large costs and is not comlex at all. My reason for change is I dont agree with federal government nothing to do with trade. That's something that needs fixing as a side effect of leaving. | |||
" I buy little from the EU, quite a bit from the USA and China, we are already on tariffs with them. If I was buying those parts from the EU, my overall costs would go up by about 5%. Parts I sell into the EU would go up by about that same 5% , plus the tariff on my goods that is 8% on WTO rates. If the pound stays where it is, my product will still sell at a lower rate in Euro than this time last year. But, as I've said, I would prefer a non-tariff arrangement. I sell a lot to the usa, australia, NZ, who we don't have free trade deals with and that all works fine. If under the current system things work fine, why change? I mean the usa, aus, nz works fine in my business on wto tariffs. Its not large costs and is not comlex at all. My reason for change is I dont agree with federal government nothing to do with trade. That's something that needs fixing as a side effect of leaving." Australia and the US have federal governments, yet you are still happy to trade with them? | |||
"From an article while the Walloons were holding the finalisation process up I think. The rest is relevant though. (I've purposely deleted the bulk in the reply+quote) OK, it was a long hard job, I understand that. If we don't do a deal we fall onto WTO tariffs. Awkward, adds cost to exported goods, tariffs on imported goods (and income to hmrc) A Tariff free deal is best. I still think it is achievable, and think zero tariff on goods and services with manageable useful migration is good and achievable, It has already been explained by the European Commission though, first we leave, then we can start talking about trade. In those intervening years there will be tariffs." Yes and it has already been explained to you we have more to gain from tariffs than we would lose, and of course nissan have decided that they are fine here | |||
" I apologise. It's really not personal. There are many awful things about the EU and there will be some good things about leaving, under whatever terms we operate. In your particular case I can see why the choice you made is almost a no brainer. The only question mark I would put over it is that if the economy is damaged as a whole, if people have a bit less in their pockets due to inflation and the cost of imports, if the service sector is hit which most people are in, then that will have a big knock on effect and eventually that will affect you. " Ok. There may be a knock on effect to me. Lots political decisions have a cost to us all. Do we want a good nhs? Pay Disability benefits? Pay Environmental laws? Pay They are all choices with a cost. I don't believe the cost of leaving will be significant and more likely be a saving. I didn't vote from a selfish perpective. I want a successful inclusive country, with self determination. I know we will achieve that. | |||
" Australia and the US have federal governments, yet you are still happy to trade with them?" Haha yes, they aren't apartheid regimes! Taking my wording too literally, I dont want a fedral EU government. I want full uk (might end up english) self determination. | |||
"From an article while the Walloons were holding the finalisation process up I think. The rest is relevant though. (I've purposely deleted the bulk in the reply+quote) OK, it was a long hard job, I understand that. If we don't do a deal we fall onto WTO tariffs. Awkward, adds cost to exported goods, tariffs on imported goods (and income to hmrc) A Tariff free deal is best. I still think it is achievable, and think zero tariff on goods and services with manageable useful migration is good and achievable, It has already been explained by the European Commission though, first we leave, then we can start talking about trade. In those intervening years there will be tariffs. Yes and it has already been explained to you we have more to gain from tariffs than we would lose, and of course nissan have decided that they are fine here " So we don't want free trade then? If you think we will earn more in tariffs than we pay out, why would you want free trade? | |||
" Australia and the US have federal governments, yet you are still happy to trade with them? Haha yes, they aren't apartheid regimes! Taking my wording too literally, I dont want a fedral EU government. I want full uk (might end up english) self determination." But there isn't a federal Europe, we had an opt out on ever closer union, and we could have vetoed any treaties. I have never really understood why people would be against a federal Europe anyway. All a federation is, is a constitution stating the federal government is in charge of ABC, and the states are in charge of everything else. For example in Europe that could be the EU is in charge of fishing and farming, the states do everything else (defence, education, health etc.) A federal system of government is actually a way of controlling the power of the federal government, because they are only responsible for a set number of things as specified in the constitution. In our Westminster system there is no such limitation on the government, because parliament is sovereign and the government, for the most part, is in control of parliament. | |||
" Australia and the US have federal governments, yet you are still happy to trade with them? Haha yes, they aren't apartheid regimes! Taking my wording too literally, I dont want a fedral EU government. I want full uk (might end up english) self determination. But there isn't a federal Europe, we had an opt out on ever closer union, and we could have vetoed any treaties. I have never really understood why people would be against a federal Europe anyway. All a federation is, is a constitution stating the federal government is in charge of ABC, and the states are in charge of everything else. For example in Europe that could be the EU is in charge of fishing and farming, the states do everything else (defence, education, health etc.) A federal system of government is actually a way of controlling the power of the federal government, because they are only responsible for a set number of things as specified in the constitution. In our Westminster system there is no such limitation on the government, because parliament is sovereign and the government, for the most part, is in control of parliament." I suggest you read the EU five presidents report, it references moves to having an EU army, closer political union for all member states and closer monetary union for all member states, the very things you say won't happen but there they are in black and white in the five presidents report. The EU is moving towards a federal system of government, with more centralisation of power in Brussels but you are just too blind to see it. | |||
"From an article while the Walloons were holding the finalisation process up I think. The rest is relevant though. (I've purposely deleted the bulk in the reply+quote) OK, it was a long hard job, I understand that. If we don't do a deal we fall onto WTO tariffs. Awkward, adds cost to exported goods, tariffs on imported goods (and income to hmrc) A Tariff free deal is best. I still think it is achievable, and think zero tariff on goods and services with manageable useful migration is good and achievable, It has already been explained by the European Commission though, first we leave, then we can start talking about trade. In those intervening years there will be tariffs. Yes and it has already been explained to you we have more to gain from tariffs than we would lose, and of course nissan have decided that they are fine here So we don't want free trade then? If you think we will earn more in tariffs than we pay out, why would you want free trade? " In theory free trade is obviously best but the trouble is in situations such as china where state aids and dumping can allow some countries to destroy industries, when the developing asian and far eastern economies have the same cost base then free trade will be more sustainable. As far as free trade in europe my gut instinct is to say yes free trade is best as it allows the consumer to buy more products if each is a bit cheaper thus increasing output, job creation and thus GDP rather than the tax take on import tariffs being spent by government. I have a natural aversion to interference by state but I think that the rise of mega multinational conglomerates and bankers/traders they need balancing as the average worker is getting left behind At the moment a 8% tariff on industrial goods into the EU would would still make them a bit cheaper than 12 months ago | |||
" Australia and the US have federal governments, yet you are still happy to trade with them? Haha yes, they aren't apartheid regimes! Taking my wording too literally, I dont want a fedral EU government. I want full uk (might end up english) self determination. But there isn't a federal Europe, we had an opt out on ever closer union, and we could have vetoed any treaties. I have never really understood why people would be against a federal Europe anyway. All a federation is, is a constitution stating the federal government is in charge of ABC, and the states are in charge of everything else. For example in Europe that could be the EU is in charge of fishing and farming, the states do everything else (defence, education, health etc.) A federal system of government is actually a way of controlling the power of the federal government, because they are only responsible for a set number of things as specified in the constitution. In our Westminster system there is no such limitation on the government, because parliament is sovereign and the government, for the most part, is in control of parliament. I suggest you read the EU five presidents report, it references moves to having an EU army, closer political union for all member states and closer monetary union for all member states, the very things you say won't happen but there they are in black and white in the five presidents report. The EU is moving towards a federal system of government, with more centralisation of power in Brussels but you are just too blind to see it. " None of those would happen while the UK was in, to be honest, if you want to stop all that, voting Leave was the worst thing you could possibly have done. | |||
" I suggest you read the EU five presidents report, it references moves to having an EU army, closer political union for all member states and closer monetary union for all member states, the very things you say won't happen but there they are in black and white in the five presidents report. The EU is moving towards a federal system of government, with more centralisation of power in Brussels but you are just too blind to see it. None of those would happen while the UK was in, to be honest, if you want to stop all that, voting Leave was the worst thing you could possibly have done." I dont care if there is a US of E as long as we arent in it sooner or later it will become a stark choice either go in 100% or get out ,I think other countries will choose out if they get the chance. Bit by bit the change is happening, you are quite entitled to want us to be in 100% but the majority dont and voted out. Do you really believe that the majority of voters in other countries want an US of E ? | |||
"From an article while the Walloons were holding the finalisation process up I think. The rest is relevant though. (I've purposely deleted the bulk in the reply+quote) OK, it was a long hard job, I understand that. If we don't do a deal we fall onto WTO tariffs. Awkward, adds cost to exported goods, tariffs on imported goods (and income to hmrc) A Tariff free deal is best. I still think it is achievable, and think zero tariff on goods and services with manageable useful migration is good and achievable, It has already been explained by the European Commission though, first we leave, then we can start talking about trade. In those intervening years there will be tariffs. Yes and it has already been explained to you we have more to gain from tariffs than we would lose, and of course nissan have decided that they are fine here So we don't want free trade then? If you think we will earn more in tariffs than we pay out, why would you want free trade? In theory free trade is obviously best but the trouble is in situations such as china where state aids and dumping can allow some countries to destroy industries, when the developing asian and far eastern economies have the same cost base then free trade will be more sustainable. As far as free trade in europe my gut instinct is to say yes free trade is best as it allows the consumer to buy more products if each is a bit cheaper thus increasing output, job creation and thus GDP rather than the tax take on import tariffs being spent by government. I have a natural aversion to interference by state but I think that the rise of mega multinational conglomerates and bankers/traders they need balancing as the average worker is getting left behind At the moment a 8% tariff on industrial goods into the EU would would still make them a bit cheaper than 12 months ago " But at the moment we have free trade with similar, advanced economies, and rules that stop state aid, inside the EU, with tariffs protecting us from developing economies without the same rules and regulations that level the playing field. By leaving the EU, and signing free trade deals with countries like India and China we will be getting the worst of all worlds. They will be able to dump on us, but of course won't buy from us because with our higher standards and wages our products are much more expensive than theirs. They will continue state funding, which would mean we would have to do the same to compete, which we don't want to do. | |||
" I suggest you read the EU five presidents report, it references moves to having an EU army, closer political union for all member states and closer monetary union for all member states, the very things you say won't happen but there they are in black and white in the five presidents report. The EU is moving towards a federal system of government, with more centralisation of power in Brussels but you are just too blind to see it. None of those would happen while the UK was in, to be honest, if you want to stop all that, voting Leave was the worst thing you could possibly have done. I dont care if there is a US of E as long as we arent in it sooner or later it will become a stark choice either go in 100% or get out ,I think other countries will choose out if they get the chance. Bit by bit the change is happening, you are quite entitled to want us to be in 100% but the majority dont and voted out. Do you really believe that the majority of voters in other countries want an US of E ?" No I dont think that the majority of the voters in the member states want a United States of Europe, thats exactly why I don't think it will happen! | |||
" I suggest you read the EU five presidents report, it references moves to having an EU army, closer political union for all member states and closer monetary union for all member states, the very things you say won't happen but there they are in black and white in the five presidents report. The EU is moving towards a federal system of government, with more centralisation of power in Brussels but you are just too blind to see it. None of those would happen while the UK was in, to be honest, if you want to stop all that, voting Leave was the worst thing you could possibly have done. I dont care if there is a US of E as long as we arent in it sooner or later it will become a stark choice either go in 100% or get out ,I think other countries will choose out if they get the chance. Bit by bit the change is happening, you are quite entitled to want us to be in 100% but the majority dont and voted out. Do you really believe that the majority of voters in other countries want an US of E ? No I dont think that the majority of the voters in the member states want a United States of Europe, thats exactly why I don't think it will happen! " So why do the euro bods keep the drip drip that will only lead one way. If we went back to the old EEC got rid of the euro parliament and the "presidents" then I believe there would be a huge majority of the UK that would want to be in | |||
" I suggest you read the EU five presidents report, it references moves to having an EU army, closer political union for all member states and closer monetary union for all member states, the very things you say won't happen but there they are in black and white in the five presidents report. The EU is moving towards a federal system of government, with more centralisation of power in Brussels but you are just too blind to see it. None of those would happen while the UK was in, to be honest, if you want to stop all that, voting Leave was the worst thing you could possibly have done. I dont care if there is a US of E as long as we arent in it sooner or later it will become a stark choice either go in 100% or get out ,I think other countries will choose out if they get the chance. Bit by bit the change is happening, you are quite entitled to want us to be in 100% but the majority dont and voted out. Do you really believe that the majority of voters in other countries want an US of E ? No I dont think that the majority of the voters in the member states want a United States of Europe, thats exactly why I don't think it will happen! So why do the euro bods keep the drip drip that will only lead one way. If we went back to the old EEC got rid of the euro parliament and the "presidents" then I believe there would be a huge majority of the UK that would want to be in" I think there are a number of EU bureaucrats who do have a bit of a Napoleon bent to them. However there are more that don't. While we are in the EU I think they won't get their way. If we leave though .... | |||
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"Better to keep a single market thread away from immigration or it will never come back on track. If you want the single market, you have to take immigration. " Free movement? Not necessarily, I think there is a precedent that limits free movement for eea/efta members....Lichtenstein. | |||
"Better to keep a single market thread away from immigration or it will never come back on track. If you want the single market, you have to take immigration. Free movement? Not necessarily, I think there is a precedent that limits free movement for eea/efta members....Lichtenstein. " Correct, similar to what we discussed above / ceta. I'd suggest zero tariffs on goods and services and managed useful migration as a good deal for all. | |||
"So it seems as though the remain camp want to stay in the Single Market, and the leaders of the Leave campaigns said before the referendum that they didn't want to leave the Single Market, so we should stay, right? " Quite frankly I don't give a fuck. There is a much bigger world out there that an inward looking, protectionist, and soon to be bankrupt trading club. If they want to sell us their goods then they will do a deal. If they don't, they wont. | |||
"There is a much bigger world out there that an inward looking, protectionist, and soon to be bankrupt trading club. If they want to sell us their goods then they will do a deal. If they don't, they wont." Firstly you don't live in the UK so all your bluster about if 'they' want to sell us stuff is plain shite! Secondly, you keep going on about hows there's a whole world out there, but that also is utter economic crap! Fact is the biggest market in the world is the USA, second biggest is the EU and after that well its a case of take your pick but they are all really quite small. Because it is all about how much they can afford to spend! USA GDP per capita = $53,000 EU ^^ ^^ ^^^^ = $30,500 China^^^^^^^^^^^^^ = $ 6,800 India^^^^^^^^^^^^^ = $ 1,500 When you critically look at the world markets it does not take a genius to work out that most of the world can barely afford to feed itself properly let alone buy our high tech goods and services so your (and others) claim that by leaving the EU we open up markets is patently horse crap. There is a reason why multinationals move low tech jobs to third world countries, it is because labour is cheap! Labour is cheap because they have a subsistence economy, subsistence economies don't want most of the sort of things we want to sell them and they cant afford to buy enough JCB's to make up for what we lose leaving the EU! | |||
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"Anyone who asks about the single market or the customs union should first have to explain what they think the phrases mean because most have no idea what each entails." That turned into a 100 post long argument (I wasn't involved). That's why I just write tariff or zero tariff. | |||
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"I just wondered if anybody happens to know how much of UK gdp is generated in the UK solely,i mean everybody keeps mentioning importing and exporting and tariffs but how much of the gdp total is this?... I'd be interested to know. I mean when we keep talking about where the big market is? Is our biggest market ourselves?" Very little of our GDP is made up of stuff we sell to ourselves. In fact very little of our GDP is made up of stuff period. About 75% of our GDP is made up of invisible earnings (that's the 1 or 2% that the financial services industry skim off the top of every transaction and the 10 or 20% annual management fees they charge their marks for the privilege of continually flipping their investments at a charge of 1 or 2%). | |||
