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Catalonia independence
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"So we seem to have a stalemate, given the turnout was only 42% what should happen next?" Rajoy's heavy handling of the Catalan situation has been an embarrassing catalogue of errors - based on poor political judgement. Puigdemont has placed the ball back in Rajoy's court and awaits the Spanish leader's next faux pas, to help Catalan independence further | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So we seem to have a stalemate, given the turnout was only 42% what should happen next? Rajoy's heavy handling of the Catalan situation has been an embarrassing catalogue of errors - based on poor political judgement. Puigdemont has placed the ball back in Rajoy's court and awaits the Spanish leader's next faux pas, to help Catalan independence further " I agree the Catalans are playing a better game.Madrid has already lost Catalonia due to the awful decisions they made.I would like to see spain allow a 2nd referendum this time without police brutality and settle it once and for all.The future is bright for Catalonia and bleak for spain. | |||
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"they are going to want someone impartial.... I can think of one side both sets of people would trust (it would have been the king but he burnt that bridge ans was really badly advised in the statement he made) it is the vatican and the pope..... weirdly under advisement of the uk and scottish governments because they have been thru the same situation..... i still think if there is a 2nd referendum with all sides campaigning the "stay" side would win.... but the spanish government with their actions just made the contest a lot closer..... " The Spanish Government are making the Catalonians all the more determined | |||
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"they are going to want someone impartial.... I can think of one side both sets of people would trust (it would have been the king but he burnt that bridge ans was really badly advised in the statement he made) it is the vatican and the pope..... weirdly under advisement of the uk and scottish governments because they have been thru the same situation..... i still think if there is a 2nd referendum with all sides campaigning the "stay" side would win.... but the spanish government with their actions just made the contest a lot closer..... The Spanish Government are making the Catalonians all the more determined" thats why i said that instead of it being for example 60-40 stay.... i would expect it to be more 53-47 ish...... | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"they are going to want someone impartial.... I can think of one side both sets of people would trust (it would have been the king but he burnt that bridge ans was really badly advised in the statement he made) it is the vatican and the pope..... weirdly under advisement of the uk and scottish governments because they have been thru the same situation..... i still think if there is a 2nd referendum with all sides campaigning the "stay" side would win.... but the spanish government with their actions just made the contest a lot closer..... The Spanish Government are making the Catalonians all the more determined thats why i said that instead of it being for example 60-40 stay.... i would expect it to be more 53-47 ish......" 53 - 47 leave, I think it will be a higher leave mark, much higher, they are a proud nation and don't want to run with the cockroaches | |||
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"What should happen and what will happen are 2 different things. What should happen is the Catalonian government should recognise that independence is not wanted by the vast majority of the population and they should quietly drop the claim and get on with looking after their constituents rather than attempting to grab more power. However what will happen is professional rabble rowsers will whip up public outrage and unprincipled politicians will take full advantage of the situation and the country will descend into civil war as happened everywhere else 'nationalists' wrap themselves in flags and claim they want power for patriotic reasons." Sadly you could be right,another reasom for us to leave the EU we are so much more civilised than they are.I do apologise to any Spanish friends on here it is not a remark to all of your people. | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator." Don't forget the hard border that will be required! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! " The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator." The Vatican might be an acceptable mediator to you but the Vatican, just like King Felipe and the EU will side with Rajoy - Every Catalan knows that - so it's not acceptable Why should an outdated religious figure living in another country, decide the fate of a new nation? Would you accept the Arch Bishop of Canterbury or Pope Francis or Ali Khamenei deciding the outcome of Brexit or Scottish independence? History and the Catholic Church's support for Franco (against Catalunya) tell us exactly who the Vatican will support | |||
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"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. The Vatican might be an acceptable mediator to you but the Vatican, just like King Felipe and the EU will side with Rajoy - Every Catalan knows that - so it's not acceptable Why should an outdated religious figure living in another country, decide the fate of a new nation? Would you accept the Arch Bishop of Canterbury or Pope Francis or Ali Khamenei deciding the outcome of Brexit or Scottish independence? History and the Catholic Church's support for Franco (against Catalunya) tell us exactly who the Vatican will support " I think the people you named would make a far better job of it then May and co  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ?" Trump can do you a great deal on a wall. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ?" Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia." I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye " Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia." While Spain would probably like to frustrate the Catalans that would really be cutting off their nose to spite their face. Realistically there are only two commercially usable roads out of Spain into France and the rest of Europe. La Jonquera on the Spanish/Catalan border with France is not only the gateway to the Costas for tourist traffic. It is also the main artery into Europe for the hundreds of Spanish trucks carrying all sorts of Spanish produce to the rest of Europe every day. Shut that down and the Spanish economy really would get a heart attack. BTW. The only other commercially usable one is in the Basque country. Pyrenees tunnel anyone?  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. While Spain would probably like to frustrate the Catalans that would really be cutting off their nose to spite their face. Realistically there are only two commercially usable roads out of Spain into France and the rest of Europe. La Jonquera on the Spanish/Catalan border with France is not only the gateway to the Costas for tourist traffic. It is also the main artery into Europe for the hundreds of Spanish trucks carrying all sorts of Spanish produce to the rest of Europe every day. Shut that down and the Spanish economy really would get a heart attack. BTW. The only other commercially usable one is in the Basque country. Pyrenees tunnel anyone? "So you think the economics should trump political beliefs? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. While Spain would probably like to frustrate the Catalans that would really be cutting off their nose to spite their face. Realistically there are only two commercially usable roads out of Spain into France and the rest of Europe. La Jonquera on the Spanish/Catalan border with France is not only the gateway to the Costas for tourist traffic. It is also the main artery into Europe for the hundreds of Spanish trucks carrying all sorts of Spanish produce to the rest of Europe every day. Shut that down and the Spanish economy really would get a heart attack. BTW. The only other commercially usable one is in the Basque country. Pyrenees tunnel anyone?
So you think the economics should trump political beliefs? "Say or ask what you like but I will never answer you at any time on any subject. My real life is much more important to allow myself to get into a "wading through treacle" debate with you. Please copy and save this reply as it is the only answer you will ever get from me on any subject. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. While Spain would probably like to frustrate the Catalans that would really be cutting off their nose to spite their face. Realistically there are only two commercially usable roads out of Spain into France and the rest of Europe. La Jonquera on the Spanish/Catalan border with France is not only the gateway to the Costas for tourist traffic. It is also the main artery into Europe for the hundreds of Spanish trucks carrying all sorts of Spanish produce to the rest of Europe every day. Shut that down and the Spanish economy really would get a heart attack. BTW. The only other commercially usable one is in the Basque country. Pyrenees tunnel anyone?
So you think the economics should trump political beliefs?
Say or ask what you like but I will never answer you at any time on any subject.
My real life is much more important to allow myself to get into a "wading through treacle" debate with you.
Please copy and save this reply as it is the only answer you will ever get from me on any subject.
"You have suddenly realised how your argument about Catalonia completely undermines your Brexit position. You think Spain should put its economy first, but you are happy for the UK to harm it's economy for your political dogma. Instead of facing up to that, you throw your toys out of the pram and cry "I dont want to play anymore!" | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. While Spain would probably like to frustrate the Catalans that would really be cutting off their nose to spite their face. Realistically there are only two commercially usable roads out of Spain into France and the rest of Europe. La Jonquera on the Spanish/Catalan border with France is not only the gateway to the Costas for tourist traffic. It is also the main artery into Europe for the hundreds of Spanish trucks carrying all sorts of Spanish produce to the rest of Europe every day. Shut that down and the Spanish economy really would get a heart attack. BTW. The only other commercially usable one is in the Basque country. Pyrenees tunnel anyone?
So you think the economics should trump political beliefs?
Say or ask what you like but I will never answer you at any time on any subject.
My real life is much more important to allow myself to get into a "wading through treacle" debate with you.
Please copy and save this reply as it is the only answer you will ever get from me on any subject.
You have suddenly realised how your argument about Catalonia completely undermines your Brexit position. You think Spain should put its economy first, but you are happy for the UK to harm it's economy for your political dogma. Instead of facing up to that, you throw your toys out of the pram and cry "I dont want to play anymore!""There are plenty of remoaners on here who fully support Catalan independence. Like me they know that the two issues are completely different. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. While Spain would probably like to frustrate the Catalans that would really be cutting off their nose to spite their face. Realistically there are only two commercially usable roads out of Spain into France and the rest of Europe. La Jonquera on the Spanish/Catalan border with France is not only the gateway to the Costas for tourist traffic. It is also the main artery into Europe for the hundreds of Spanish trucks carrying all sorts of Spanish produce to the rest of Europe every day. Shut that down and the Spanish economy really would get a heart attack. BTW. The only other commercially usable one is in the Basque country. Pyrenees tunnel anyone?
So you think the economics should trump political beliefs?
Say or ask what you like but I will never answer you at any time on any subject.
My real life is much more important to allow myself to get into a "wading through treacle" debate with you.
Please copy and save this reply as it is the only answer you will ever get from me on any subject.
You have suddenly realised how your argument about Catalonia completely undermines your Brexit position. You think Spain should put its economy first, but you are happy for the UK to harm it's economy for your political dogma. Instead of facing up to that, you throw your toys out of the pram and cry "I dont want to play anymore!"
There are plenty of remoaners on here who fully support Catalan independence.
Like me they know that the two issues are completely different."They are not talking about roads in and out of spain, and about cutting off your nose to spite your face, thats just you. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! " I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda " Which article of the UDHR do you think had been breached? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda Which article of the UDHR do you think had been breached? " Which part of bludgeoning and firing rubber bullets at innocent voters and peaceful demonstrators do you think wasn't excessive? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda Which article of the UDHR do you think had been breached? Which part of bludgeoning and firing rubber bullets at innocent voters and peaceful demonstrators do you think wasn't excessive? " You have referenced the EU’s stance on human rights, so which human right (as outlined in the articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) do you think was breached in this case? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda Which article of the UDHR do you think had been breached? Which part of bludgeoning and firing rubber bullets at innocent voters and peaceful demonstrators do you think wasn't excessive? You have referenced the EU’s stance on human rights, so which human right (as outlined in the articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) do you think was breached in this case?" Yes absolutely I think the clue might be in the words I'm using ....... 'Rubber bullets - fired at innocent protestors - bludgeoning of innocent voters with batons' Add to that - Women pulled from polling stations by their hair and thrown down flights of stairs - elderly people pushed to ground, voters hit about the head and face with sticks, people on the ground kicked and punched - 900 injured If you have any doubts of UDHR articles being breached or have any doubts of the police using excessive force - I'd suggest you watch some film footage from 1st Oct and then run down the list of UDHR articles - I'm sure you will find more than one area of concern If you don't - it might be a good time to take a long look in the mirror and ask another question | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda Which article of the UDHR do you think had been breached? Which part of bludgeoning and firing rubber bullets at innocent voters and peaceful demonstrators do you think wasn't excessive? You have referenced the EU’s stance on human rights, so which human right (as outlined in the articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) do you think was breached in this case? Yes absolutely I think the clue might be in the words I'm using ....... 'Rubber bullets - fired at innocent protestors - bludgeoning of innocent voters with batons' Add to that - Women pulled from polling stations by their hair and thrown down flights of stairs - elderly people pushed to ground, voters hit about the head and face with sticks, people on the ground kicked and punched - 900 injured If you have any doubts of UDHR articles being breached or have any doubts of the police using excessive force - I'd suggest you watch some film footage from 1st Oct and then run down the list of UDHR articles - I'm sure you will find more than one area of concern If you don't - it might be a good time to take a long look in the mirror and ask another question " The phrase "rubber bullets" does not appear anywhere in the UDHR. It seems highly suspicious to me that you are so confident that what happened constitutes a violation of their human rights, yet you can name which human right was violated.  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda Which article of the UDHR do you think had been breached? Which part of bludgeoning and firing rubber bullets at innocent voters and peaceful demonstrators do you think wasn't excessive? You have referenced the EU’s stance on human rights, so which human right (as outlined in the articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) do you think was breached in this case? Yes absolutely I think the clue might be in the words I'm using ....... 'Rubber bullets - fired at innocent protestors - bludgeoning of innocent voters with batons' Add to that - Women pulled from polling stations by their hair and thrown down flights of stairs - elderly people pushed to ground, voters hit about the head and face with sticks, people on the ground kicked and punched - 900 injured If you have any doubts of UDHR articles being breached or have any doubts of the police using excessive force - I'd suggest you watch some film footage from 1st Oct and then run down the list of UDHR articles - I'm sure you will find more than one area of concern If you don't - it might be a good time to take a long look in the mirror and ask another question The phrase "rubber bullets" does not appear anywhere in the UDHR. It seems highly suspicious to me that you are so confident that what happened constitutes a violation of their human rights, yet you can name which human right was violated. "Oh dear! The specific words 'Rubber Bullets' are not used in any articles - then it must be okay to use them against peaceful protesters then? I'm guessing it doesn't mention dragging women from polling stations by their hair either? Perhaps that little number comes under article 5 - Freedom from Degrading Treatment? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda Which article of the UDHR do you think had been breached? Which part of bludgeoning and firing rubber bullets at innocent voters and peaceful demonstrators do you think wasn't excessive? You have referenced the EU’s stance on human rights, so which human right (as outlined in the articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) do you think was breached in this case? Yes absolutely I think the clue might be in the words I'm using ....... 'Rubber bullets - fired at innocent protestors - bludgeoning of innocent voters with batons' Add to that - Women pulled from polling stations by their hair and thrown down flights of stairs - elderly people pushed to ground, voters hit about the head and face with sticks, people on the ground kicked and punched - 900 injured If you have any doubts of UDHR articles being breached or have any doubts of the police using excessive force - I'd suggest you watch some film footage from 1st Oct and then run down the list of UDHR articles - I'm sure you will find more than one area of concern If you don't - it might be a good time to take a long look in the mirror and ask another question The phrase "rubber bullets" does not appear anywhere in the UDHR. It seems highly suspicious to me that you are so confident that what happened constitutes a violation of their human rights, yet you can name which human right was violated.
Oh dear!
The specific words 'Rubber Bullets' are not used in any articles - then it must be okay to use them against peaceful protesters then?
I'm guessing it doesn't mention dragging women from polling stations by their hair either?
Perhaps that little number comes under article 5 - Freedom from Degrading Treatment?
"So that is the right that you think has been breached? "No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment." | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda Which article of the UDHR do you think had been breached? Which part of bludgeoning and firing rubber bullets at innocent voters and peaceful demonstrators do you think wasn't excessive? You have referenced the EU’s stance on human rights, so which human right (as outlined in the articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) do you think was breached in this case? Yes absolutely I think the clue might be in the words I'm using ....... 'Rubber bullets - fired at innocent protestors - bludgeoning of innocent voters with batons' Add to that - Women pulled from polling stations by their hair and thrown down flights of stairs - elderly people pushed to ground, voters hit about the head and face with sticks, people on the ground kicked and punched - 900 injured If you have any doubts of UDHR articles being breached or have any doubts of the police using excessive force - I'd suggest you watch some film footage from 1st Oct and then run down the list of UDHR articles - I'm sure you will find more than one area of concern If you don't - it might be a good time to take a long look in the mirror and ask another question The phrase "rubber bullets" does not appear anywhere in the UDHR. It seems highly suspicious to me that you are so confident that what happened constitutes a violation of their human rights, yet you can name which human right was violated.
Oh dear!
The specific words 'Rubber Bullets' are not used in any articles - then it must be okay to use them against peaceful protesters then?
I'm guessing it doesn't mention dragging women from polling stations by their hair either?
Perhaps that little number comes under article 5 - Freedom from Degrading Treatment?
So that is the right that you think has been breached? "No one shall be subjected to torture or to
cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.""It's just one of several So you disagree that innocent women dragged publically from a polling station by their hair is degrading treatment? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda Which article of the UDHR do you think had been breached? Which part of bludgeoning and firing rubber bullets at innocent voters and peaceful demonstrators do you think wasn't excessive? You have referenced the EU’s stance on human rights, so which human right (as outlined in the articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) do you think was breached in this case? Yes absolutely I think the clue might be in the words I'm using ....... 'Rubber bullets - fired at innocent protestors - bludgeoning of innocent voters with batons' Add to that - Women pulled from polling stations by their hair and thrown down flights of stairs - elderly people pushed to ground, voters hit about the head and face with sticks, people on the ground kicked and punched - 900 injured If you have any doubts of UDHR articles being breached or have any doubts of the police using excessive force - I'd suggest you watch some film footage from 1st Oct and then run down the list of UDHR articles - I'm sure you will find more than one area of concern If you don't - it might be a good time to take a long look in the mirror and ask another question The phrase "rubber bullets" does not appear anywhere in the UDHR. It seems highly suspicious to me that you are so confident that what happened constitutes a violation of their human rights, yet you can name which human right was violated.
Oh dear!
The specific words 'Rubber Bullets' are not used in any articles - then it must be okay to use them against peaceful protesters then?
I'm guessing it doesn't mention dragging women from polling stations by their hair either?
Perhaps that little number comes under article 5 - Freedom from Degrading Treatment?
So that is the right that you think has been breached? "No one shall be subjected to torture or to
cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
It's just one of several
So you disagree that innocent women dragged publically from a polling station by their hair is degrading treatment? "Can you find any case law that says that meets the legal definition? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Two of the referendum organisers are now in jail, it has been reported tonight." They broke the law, that's what happens. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda Which article of the UDHR do you think had been breached? Which part of bludgeoning and firing rubber bullets at innocent voters and peaceful demonstrators do you think wasn't excessive? You have referenced the EU’s stance on human rights, so which human right (as outlined in the articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) do you think was breached in this case? Yes absolutely I think the clue might be in the words I'm using ....... 'Rubber bullets - fired at innocent protestors - bludgeoning of innocent voters with batons' Add to that - Women pulled from polling stations by their hair and thrown down flights of stairs - elderly people pushed to ground, voters hit about the head and face with sticks, people on the ground kicked and punched - 900 injured If you have any doubts of UDHR articles being breached or have any doubts of the police using excessive force - I'd suggest you watch some film footage from 1st Oct and then run down the list of UDHR articles - I'm sure you will find more than one area of concern If you don't - it might be a good time to take a long look in the mirror and ask another question The phrase "rubber bullets" does not appear anywhere in the UDHR. It seems highly suspicious to me that you are so confident that what happened constitutes a violation of their human rights, yet you can name which human right was violated.
Oh dear!
The specific words 'Rubber Bullets' are not used in any articles - then it must be okay to use them against peaceful protesters then?
I'm guessing it doesn't mention dragging women from polling stations by their hair either?
Perhaps that little number comes under article 5 - Freedom from Degrading Treatment?
So that is the right that you think has been breached? "No one shall be subjected to torture or to
cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
It's just one of several
So you disagree that innocent women dragged publically from a polling station by their hair is degrading treatment?
Can you find any case law that says that meets the legal definition? "Yes shooting at innocent people is consider illegal Can you find a case law which states differently? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Two of the referendum organisers are now in jail, it has been reported tonight. They broke the law, that's what happens. " What crime did they commit? In order the break the law you have to commit a crime so which crime did they commit ? Take your heed out the sand for a minute i know your against Calatan indpendence fair enough but put that to one side These people are democratic activists peaceful activists last i checked nothing wrong with that. Remember its Spain's government not willing to come to the table and talk making them look like dictators scumbags is what i call them | |||
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"Two of the referendum organisers are now in jail, it has been reported tonight. They broke the law, that's what happens. " Rajoy's latest mistake! Holding political prisoners will fan the flames and provide and galvanise more support for independence | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda Which article of the UDHR do you think had been breached? Which part of bludgeoning and firing rubber bullets at innocent voters and peaceful demonstrators do you think wasn't excessive? You have referenced the EU’s stance on human rights, so which human right (as outlined in the articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) do you think was breached in this case? Yes absolutely I think the clue might be in the words I'm using ....... 'Rubber bullets - fired at innocent protestors - bludgeoning of innocent voters with batons' Add to that - Women pulled from polling stations by their hair and thrown down flights of stairs - elderly people pushed to ground, voters hit about the head and face with sticks, people on the ground kicked and punched - 900 injured If you have any doubts of UDHR articles being breached or have any doubts of the police using excessive force - I'd suggest you watch some film footage from 1st Oct and then run down the list of UDHR articles - I'm sure you will find more than one area of concern If you don't - it might be a good time to take a long look in the mirror and ask another question The phrase "rubber bullets" does not appear anywhere in the UDHR. It seems highly suspicious to me that you are so confident that what happened constitutes a violation of their human rights, yet you can name which human right was violated.
Oh dear!
The specific words 'Rubber Bullets' are not used in any articles - then it must be okay to use them against peaceful protesters then?
I'm guessing it doesn't mention dragging women from polling stations by their hair either?
Perhaps that little number comes under article 5 - Freedom from Degrading Treatment?
So that is the right that you think has been breached? "No one shall be subjected to torture or to
cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
It's just one of several
So you disagree that innocent women dragged publically from a polling station by their hair is degrading treatment?
Can you find any case law that says that meets the legal definition?
Yes shooting at innocent people is consider illegal
Can you find a case law which states differently?"You're confident that the police broke the law? Well in that case I'm sure you'll be able to provide some links to policemen being charged then, right? | |||
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"Two of the referendum organisers are now in jail, it has been reported tonight. They broke the law, that's what happens. What crime did they commit? In order the break the law you have to commit a crime so which crime did they commit ? Take your heed out the sand for a minute i know your against Calatan indpendence fair enough but put that to one side These people are democratic activists peaceful activists last i checked nothing wrong with that. Remember its Spain's government not willing to come to the table and talk making them look like dictators scumbags is what i call them" It has been very well covered, the referendum was illegal, the courts ruled on it, and said it couldn't go ahead, and they ignored the courts. Try that in any country and you'll go to jail. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Two of the referendum organisers are now in jail, it has been reported tonight. They broke the law, that's what happens. What crime did they commit? In order the break the law you have to commit a crime so which crime did they commit ? Take your heed out the sand for a minute i know your against Calatan indpendence fair enough but put that to one side These people are democratic activists peaceful activists last i checked nothing wrong with that. Remember its Spain's government not willing to come to the table and talk making them look like dictators scumbags is what i call them It has been very well covered, the referendum was illegal, the courts ruled on it, and said it couldn't go ahead, and they ignored the courts. Try that in any country and you'll go to jail. " Put the referendum and independence to one side So again which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? God am so glad you aint in charge or you would be happy to lock every person up for being peaceful and demonstrating | |||
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"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. While Spain would probably like to frustrate the Catalans that would really be cutting off their nose to spite their face. Realistically there are only two commercially usable roads out of Spain into France and the rest of Europe. La Jonquera on the Spanish/Catalan border with France is not only the gateway to the Costas for tourist traffic. It is also the main artery into Europe for the hundreds of Spanish trucks carrying all sorts of Spanish produce to the rest of Europe every day. Shut that down and the Spanish economy really would get a heart attack. BTW. The only other commercially usable one is in the Basque country. Pyrenees tunnel anyone?
So you think the economics should trump political beliefs?
Say or ask what you like but I will never answer you at any time on any subject.
My real life is much more important to allow myself to get into a "wading through treacle" debate with you.
Please copy and save this reply as it is the only answer you will ever get from me on any subject.
" | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Two of the referendum organisers are now in jail, it has been reported tonight. They broke the law, that's what happens. What crime did they commit? In order the break the law you have to commit a crime so which crime did they commit ? Take your heed out the sand for a minute i know your against Calatan indpendence fair enough but put that to one side These people are democratic activists peaceful activists last i checked nothing wrong with that. Remember its Spain's government not willing to come to the table and talk making them look like dictators scumbags is what i call them It has been very well covered, the referendum was illegal, the courts ruled on it, and said it couldn't go ahead, and they ignored the courts. Try that in any country and you'll go to jail. Put the referendum and independence to one side So again which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? God am so glad you aint in charge or you would be happy to lock every person up for being peaceful and demonstrating " Demonstrating is fine....holding an illegal referendum isn't....so im guessing there up in court for NOT upholding the law in there positions as policemen | |||
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"P.S CLCC would sent all the people to jail that showed peaceful demonstrations outside of Downing Street protesting against the Tories ? Your hell bent on keep going on about the referendum take it to one side. Are you really saying people should go to jail for organising peaceful demonstrations ? If you say yes then am really glad you aint in charge and am sure Rojoy will welcome you " I wonder how CLCC would feel if the police beat the crap out of the protestors who marched in Westminster to oppose brexit? | |||
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"Two of the referendum organisers are now in jail, it has been reported tonight. They broke the law, that's what happens. What crime did they commit? In order the break the law you have to commit a crime so which crime did they commit ? Take your heed out the sand for a minute i know your against Calatan indpendence fair enough but put that to one side These people are democratic activists peaceful activists last i checked nothing wrong with that. Remember its Spain's government not willing to come to the table and talk making them look like dictators scumbags is what i call them It has been very well covered, the referendum was illegal, the courts ruled on it, and said it couldn't go ahead, and they ignored the courts. Try that in any country and you'll go to jail. Put the referendum and independence to one side So again which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? God am so glad you aint in charge or you would be happy to lock every person up for being peaceful and demonstrating Demonstrating is fine....holding an illegal referendum isn't....so im guessing there up in court for NOT upholding the law in there positions as policemen " Was the EU referendum legally binding ? Thank you though for saying Demonstrating is not a crime and they have every right to do so. CLCC seems to think they broke the law for Demonstrating lol | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"P.S CLCC would sent all the people to jail that showed peaceful demonstrations outside of Downing Street protesting against the Tories ? Your hell bent on keep going on about the referendum take it to one side. Are you really saying people should go to jail for organising peaceful demonstrations ? If you say yes then am really glad you aint in charge and am sure Rojoy will welcome you I wonder how CLCC would feel if the police beat the crap out of the protestors who marched in Westminster to oppose brexit? " How did you feel back in the 8os when the police here were beating the crap out of protesters | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Two of the referendum organisers are now in jail, it has been reported tonight. They broke the law, that's what happens. What crime did they commit? In order the break the law you have to commit a crime so which crime did they commit ? Take your heed out the sand for a minute i know your against Calatan indpendence fair enough but put that to one side These people are democratic activists peaceful activists last i checked nothing wrong with that. Remember its Spain's government not willing to come to the table and talk making them look like dictators scumbags is what i call them It has been very well covered, the referendum was illegal, the courts ruled on it, and said it couldn't go ahead, and they ignored the courts. Try that in any country and you'll go to jail. Put the referendum and independence to one side So again which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? God am so glad you aint in charge or you would be happy to lock every person up for being peaceful and demonstrating Demonstrating is fine....holding an illegal referendum isn't....so im guessing there up in court for NOT upholding the law in there positions as policemen Was the EU referendum legally binding ? Thank you though for saying Demonstrating is not a crime and they have every right to do so. CLCC seems to think they broke the law for Demonstrating lol " No the referendum in Spain or Catalonia wasn't and isn't legally binding....or legal as the courts had ruled against it as it was unconstitutional | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Two of the referendum organisers are now in jail, it has been reported tonight. They broke the law, that's what happens. What crime did they commit? In order the break the law you have to commit a crime so which crime did they commit ? Take your heed out the sand for a minute i know your against Calatan indpendence fair enough but put that to one side These people are democratic activists peaceful activists last i checked nothing wrong with that. Remember its Spain's government not willing to come to the table and talk making them look like dictators scumbags is what i call them It has been very well covered, the referendum was illegal, the courts ruled on it, and said it couldn't go ahead, and they ignored the courts. Try that in any country and you'll go to jail. Put the referendum and independence to one side So again which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? God am so glad you aint in charge or you would be happy to lock every person up for being peaceful and demonstrating Demonstrating is fine....holding an illegal referendum isn't....so im guessing there up in court for NOT upholding the law in there positions as policemen Was the EU referendum legally binding ? Thank you though for saying Demonstrating is not a crime and they have every right to do so. CLCC seems to think they broke the law for Demonstrating lol No the referendum in Spain or Catalonia wasn't and isn't legally binding....or legal as the courts had ruled against it as it was unconstitutional " Thats not what i asked you i asked you was the EU referendum legally binding ? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Two of the referendum organisers are now in jail, it has been reported tonight. They broke the law, that's what happens. What crime did they commit? In order the break the law you have to commit a crime so which crime did they commit ? Take your heed out the sand for a minute i know your against Calatan indpendence fair enough but put that to one side These people are democratic activists peaceful activists last i checked nothing wrong with that. Remember its Spain's government not willing to come to the table and talk making them look like dictators scumbags is what i call them It has been very well covered, the referendum was illegal, the courts ruled on it, and said it couldn't go ahead, and they ignored the courts. Try that in any country and you'll go to jail. Put the referendum and independence to one side So again which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? God am so glad you aint in charge or you would be happy to lock every person up for being peaceful and demonstrating Demonstrating is fine....holding an illegal referendum isn't....so im guessing there up in court for NOT upholding the law in there positions as policemen Was the EU referendum legally binding ? Thank you though for saying Demonstrating is not a crime and they have every right to do so. CLCC seems to think they broke the law for Demonstrating lol No the referendum in Spain or Catalonia wasn't and isn't legally binding....or legal as the courts had ruled against it as it was unconstitutional Thats not what i asked you i asked you was the EU referendum legally binding ? " No it wasnt and has been ruled not to be...if you look up the meaning of referendum...but the result has been voted on in the UK parliament to move to the next stage The EU referendum was not legally binding, a Supreme Court judge hearing the Government’s appeal against the Brexit legal challenge has said ahead of the December court case. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Two of the referendum organisers are now in jail, it has been reported tonight. They broke the law, that's what happens. What crime did they commit? In order the break the law you have to commit a crime so which crime did they commit ? Take your heed out the sand for a minute i know your against Calatan indpendence fair enough but put that to one side These people are democratic activists peaceful activists last i checked nothing wrong with that. Remember its Spain's government not willing to come to the table and talk making them look like dictators scumbags is what i call them It has been very well covered, the referendum was illegal, the courts ruled on it, and said it couldn't go ahead, and they ignored the courts. Try that in any country and you'll go to jail. Put the referendum and independence to one side So again which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? God am so glad you aint in charge or you would be happy to lock every person up for being peaceful and demonstrating Demonstrating is fine....holding an illegal referendum isn't....so im guessing there up in court for NOT upholding the law in there positions as policemen Was the EU referendum legally binding ? Thank you though for saying Demonstrating is not a crime and they have every right to do so. CLCC seems to think they broke the law for Demonstrating lol No the referendum in Spain or Catalonia wasn't and isn't legally binding....or legal as the courts had ruled against it as it was unconstitutional Thats not what i asked you i asked you was the EU referendum legally binding ? No it wasnt and has been ruled not to be...if you look up the meaning of referendum...but the result has been voted on in the UK parliament to move to the next stage The EU referendum was not legally binding, a Supreme Court judge hearing the Government’s appeal against the Brexit legal challenge has said ahead of the December court case. " Thank you so the EU referendum was not legally binding. Are you against giving Catalonia a legal binding referendum ? The people of Catalonia elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum and thats a mandate from the people its Spain's government that is acting like dictators saying no and wont even come to the table to have talks to solve this. Spain government are fascist dickheads and the king along with them. Spanish government and Spanish police attacked democracy and that shit is not welcome I wonder all these people that are defending Catalonia and democracy willing be willing to remember that when Scotland has another independence referendum as we Scottish people elected the SNP on their manifesto to have the right to hold a referendum and thats a mandate from the people i just wonder how many will do the u-turn and act like little dictators saying the UK government should NOT block a democratic right to hold an independence referendum for Scotland when the brexit deal is known Dont blame the Scottish people it was the Tories that fucked up with a non legally binding EU referendum and willing to go ahead with it no matter the cost Where are all the people telling the Tories to release the document that shows us all that Scotland and the North of England will be worse hit with brexit oh right bend over backwards and take it up the arse and put Scotland back in its place Rule Britannia eh | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Two of the referendum organisers are now in jail, it has been reported tonight. They broke the law, that's what happens. What crime did they commit? In order the break the law you have to commit a crime so which crime did they commit ? Take your heed out the sand for a minute i know your against Calatan indpendence fair enough but put that to one side These people are democratic activists peaceful activists last i checked nothing wrong with that. Remember its Spain's government not willing to come to the table and talk making them look like dictators scumbags is what i call them It has been very well covered, the referendum was illegal, the courts ruled on it, and said it couldn't go ahead, and they ignored the courts. Try that in any country and you'll go to jail. Put the referendum and independence to one side So again which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? God am so glad you aint in charge or you would be happy to lock every person up for being peaceful and demonstrating Demonstrating is fine....holding an illegal referendum isn't....so im guessing there up in court for NOT upholding the law in there positions as policemen Was the EU referendum legally binding ? Thank you though for saying Demonstrating is not a crime and they have every right to do so. CLCC seems to think they broke the law for Demonstrating lol No the referendum in Spain or Catalonia wasn't and isn't legally binding....or legal as the courts had ruled against it as it was unconstitutional Thats not what i asked you i asked you was the EU referendum legally binding ? No it wasnt and has been ruled not to be...if you look up the meaning of referendum...but the result has been voted on in the UK parliament to move to the next stage The EU referendum was not legally binding, a Supreme Court judge hearing the Government’s appeal against the Brexit legal challenge has said ahead of the December court case. Thank you so the EU referendum was not legally binding. Are you against giving Catalonia a legal binding referendum ? The people of Catalonia elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum and thats a mandate from the people its Spain's government that is acting like dictators saying no and wont even come to the table to have talks to solve this. Spain government are fascist dickheads and the king along with them. Spanish government and Spanish police attacked democracy and that shit is not welcome I wonder all these people that are defending Catalonia and democracy willing be willing to remember that when Scotland has another independence referendum as we Scottish people elected the SNP on their manifesto to have the right to hold a referendum and thats a mandate from the people i just wonder how many will do the u-turn and act like little dictators saying the UK government should block a democratic right to hold an independence referendum for Scotland when the brexit deal is known Dont blame the Scottish people it was the Tories that fucked up with a non legally binding EU referendum and willing to go ahead with it no matter the cost Where are all the people telling the Tories to release the document that shows us all that Scotland and the North of England will be worse hit with brexit oh right bend over backwards and take it up the arse and put Scotland back in its place Rule Britannia eh " You asked if the EU one was binding i answered...now if Spain wish to give them the same opportunity as Scotland then why not...and then it would be legal...the fact they didnt and they went ahead with it made it illegal...is that hard for you to understand  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Two of the referendum organisers are now in jail, it has been reported tonight. They broke the law, that's what happens. What crime did they commit? In order the break the law you have to commit a crime so which crime did they commit ? Take your heed out the sand for a minute i know your against Calatan indpendence fair enough but put that to one side These people are democratic activists peaceful activists last i checked nothing wrong with that. Remember its Spain's government not willing to come to the table and talk making them look like dictators scumbags is what i call them It has been very well covered, the referendum was illegal, the courts ruled on it, and said it couldn't go ahead, and they ignored the courts. Try that in any country and you'll go to jail. Put the referendum and independence to one side So again which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? God am so glad you aint in charge or you would be happy to lock every person up for being peaceful and demonstrating Demonstrating is fine....holding an illegal referendum isn't....so im guessing there up in court for NOT upholding the law in there positions as policemen Was the EU referendum legally binding ? Thank you though for saying Demonstrating is not a crime and they have every right to do so. CLCC seems to think they broke the law for Demonstrating lol No the referendum in Spain or Catalonia wasn't and isn't legally binding....or legal as the courts had ruled against it as it was unconstitutional Thats not what i asked you i asked you was the EU referendum legally binding ? No it wasnt and has been ruled not to be...if you look up the meaning of referendum...but the result has been voted on in the UK parliament to move to the next stage The EU referendum was not legally binding, a Supreme Court judge hearing the Government’s appeal against the Brexit legal challenge has said ahead of the December court case. Thank you so the EU referendum was not legally binding. Are you against giving Catalonia a legal binding referendum ? The people of Catalonia elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum and thats a mandate from the people its Spain's government that is acting like dictators saying no and wont even come to the table to have talks to solve this. Spain government are fascist dickheads and the king along with them. Spanish government and Spanish police attacked democracy and that shit is not welcome I wonder all these people that are defending Catalonia and democracy willing be willing to remember that when Scotland has another independence referendum as we Scottish people elected the SNP on their manifesto to have the right to hold a referendum and thats a mandate from the people i just wonder how many will do the u-turn and act like little dictators saying the UK government should block a democratic right to hold an independence referendum for Scotland when the brexit deal is known Dont blame the Scottish people it was the Tories that fucked up with a non legally binding EU referendum and willing to go ahead with it no matter the cost Where are all the people telling the Tories to release the document that shows us all that Scotland and the North of England will be worse hit with brexit oh right bend over backwards and take it up the arse and put Scotland back in its place Rule Britannia eh You asked if the EU one was binding i answered...now if Spain wish to give them the same opportunity as Scotland then why not...and then it would be legal...the fact they didnt and they went ahead with it made it illegal...is that hard for you to understand "So your saying ignore all the people that elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum? Thats a mandate is it not ? What else do you want the Catalan government to do ? They were elected by the people correct. They are even willing to talk the Spanish government and they keep saying no who do you think is looking like dictators in all this ? Again i will point out the Catalan people elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum Thats democracy for you. So what is it you want the Calalan government to do if the Spanish government are not willing to listen to the people of Catalonia ? You cant claim the majority are against independence 2million voted for independence then 900+ injured and 700,000 votes stole Lets all be honest the Spanish government are pussies to allow a legally binding referendum on the fear the will lost all the money from Catalonia | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Two of the referendum organisers are now in jail, it has been reported tonight. They broke the law, that's what happens. What crime did they commit? In order the break the law you have to commit a crime so which crime did they commit ? Take your heed out the sand for a minute i know your against Calatan indpendence fair enough but put that to one side These people are democratic activists peaceful activists last i checked nothing wrong with that. Remember its Spain's government not willing to come to the table and talk making them look like dictators scumbags is what i call them It has been very well covered, the referendum was illegal, the courts ruled on it, and said it couldn't go ahead, and they ignored the courts. Try that in any country and you'll go to jail. Put the referendum and independence to one side So again which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? God am so glad you aint in charge or you would be happy to lock every person up for being peaceful and demonstrating Demonstrating is fine....holding an illegal referendum isn't....so im guessing there up in court for NOT upholding the law in there positions as policemen Was the EU referendum legally binding ? Thank you though for saying Demonstrating is not a crime and they have every right to do so. CLCC seems to think they broke the law for Demonstrating lol No the referendum in Spain or Catalonia wasn't and isn't legally binding....or legal as the courts had ruled against it as it was unconstitutional Thats not what i asked you i asked you was the EU referendum legally binding ? No it wasnt and has been ruled not to be...if you look up the meaning of referendum...but the result has been voted on in the UK parliament to move to the next stage The EU referendum was not legally binding, a Supreme Court judge hearing the Government’s appeal against the Brexit legal challenge has said ahead of the December court case. Thank you so the EU referendum was not legally binding. Are you against giving Catalonia a legal binding referendum ? The people of Catalonia elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum and thats a mandate from the people its Spain's government that is acting like dictators saying no and wont even come to the table to have talks to solve this. Spain government are fascist dickheads and the king along with them. Spanish government and Spanish police attacked democracy and that shit is not welcome I wonder all these people that are defending Catalonia and democracy willing be willing to remember that when Scotland has another independence referendum as we Scottish people elected the SNP on their manifesto to have the right to hold a referendum and thats a mandate from the people i just wonder how many will do the u-turn and act like little dictators saying the UK government should block a democratic right to hold an independence referendum for Scotland when the brexit deal is known Dont blame the Scottish people it was the Tories that fucked up with a non legally binding EU referendum and willing to go ahead with it no matter the cost Where are all the people telling the Tories to release the document that shows us all that Scotland and the North of England will be worse hit with brexit oh right bend over backwards and take it up the arse and put Scotland back in its place Rule Britannia eh You asked if the EU one was binding i answered...now if Spain wish to give them the same opportunity as Scotland then why not...and then it would be legal...the fact they didnt and they went ahead with it made it illegal...is that hard for you to understand
So your saying ignore all the people that elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum? Thats a mandate is it not ?
What else do you want the Catalan government to do ? They were elected by the people correct. They are even willing to talk the Spanish government and they keep saying no who do you think is looking like dictators in all this ?
Again i will point out the Catalan people elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum Thats democracy for you.
So what is it you want the Calalan government to do if the Spanish government are not willing to listen to the people of Catalonia ? You cant claim the majority are against independence
2million voted for independence then 900+ injured and 700,000 votes stole
Lets all be honest the Spanish government are pussies to allow a legally binding referendum on the fear the will lost all the money from Catalonia "THE Catalan regional government of Carles Puigdemont is preparing to hold a unilateral referendum on seceding from Spain on October 1st, which it says will be legally binding. Catalans will be asked whether they want to form an independent republic. But there is a problem: Spain’s democratic constitution of 1978, which was approved by more than 90% of Catalan voters, gave wide autonomy to the regions but affirmed “the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation”. Only the Spanish parliament can change the constitution. Mr Puigdemont’s referendum is therefore illegal, and Mariano Rajoy, Spain’s conservative prime minister, is determined to prevent it taking place. https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2017/09/economist-explains-17 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Two of the referendum organisers are now in jail, it has been reported tonight. They broke the law, that's what happens. What crime did they commit? In order the break the law you have to commit a crime so which crime did they commit ? Take your heed out the sand for a minute i know your against Calatan indpendence fair enough but put that to one side These people are democratic activists peaceful activists last i checked nothing wrong with that. Remember its Spain's government not willing to come to the table and talk making them look like dictators scumbags is what i call them It has been very well covered, the referendum was illegal, the courts ruled on it, and said it couldn't go ahead, and they ignored the courts. Try that in any country and you'll go to jail. Put the referendum and independence to one side So again which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? God am so glad you aint in charge or you would be happy to lock every person up for being peaceful and demonstrating Demonstrating is fine....holding an illegal referendum isn't....so im guessing there up in court for NOT upholding the law in there positions as policemen Was the EU referendum legally binding ? Thank you though for saying Demonstrating is not a crime and they have every right to do so. CLCC seems to think they broke the law for Demonstrating lol No the referendum in Spain or Catalonia wasn't and isn't legally binding....or legal as the courts had ruled against it as it was unconstitutional Thats not what i asked you i asked you was the EU referendum legally binding ? No it wasnt and has been ruled not to be...if you look up the meaning of referendum...but the result has been voted on in the UK parliament to move to the next stage The EU referendum was not legally binding, a Supreme Court judge hearing the Government’s appeal against the Brexit legal challenge has said ahead of the December court case. Thank you so the EU referendum was not legally binding. Are you against giving Catalonia a legal binding referendum ? The people of Catalonia elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum and thats a mandate from the people its Spain's government that is acting like dictators saying no and wont even come to the table to have talks to solve this. Spain government are fascist dickheads and the king along with them. Spanish government and Spanish police attacked democracy and that shit is not welcome I wonder all these people that are defending Catalonia and democracy willing be willing to remember that when Scotland has another independence referendum as we Scottish people elected the SNP on their manifesto to have the right to hold a referendum and thats a mandate from the people i just wonder how many will do the u-turn and act like little dictators saying the UK government should block a democratic right to hold an independence referendum for Scotland when the brexit deal is known Dont blame the Scottish people it was the Tories that fucked up with a non legally binding EU referendum and willing to go ahead with it no matter the cost Where are all the people telling the Tories to release the document that shows us all that Scotland and the North of England will be worse hit with brexit oh right bend over backwards and take it up the arse and put Scotland back in its place Rule Britannia eh You asked if the EU one was binding i answered...now if Spain wish to give them the same opportunity as Scotland then why not...and then it would be legal...the fact they didnt and they went ahead with it made it illegal...is that hard for you to understand
So your saying ignore all the people that elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum? Thats a mandate is it not ?
What else do you want the Catalan government to do ? They were elected by the people correct. They are even willing to talk the Spanish government and they keep saying no who do you think is looking like dictators in all this ?
Again i will point out the Catalan people elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum Thats democracy for you.
So what is it you want the Calalan government to do if the Spanish government are not willing to listen to the people of Catalonia ? You cant claim the majority are against independence
2million voted for independence then 900+ injured and 700,000 votes stole
Lets all be honest the Spanish government are pussies to allow a legally binding referendum on the fear the will lost all the money from Catalonia
THE Catalan regional government of Carles Puigdemont is preparing to hold a unilateral referendum on seceding from Spain on October 1st, which it says will be legally binding. Catalans will be asked whether they want to form an independent republic. But there is a problem: Spain’s democratic constitution of 1978, which was approved by more than 90% of Catalan voters, gave wide autonomy to the regions but affirmed “the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation”. Only the Spanish parliament can change the constitution. Mr Puigdemont’s referendum is therefore illegal, and Mariano Rajoy, Spain’s conservative prime minister, is determined to prevent it taking place.
https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2017/09/economist-explains-17
"Did the people of Catalonia elected Puigdemont's party into government on a promise to hold a referendum yes or no ? Is that a mandate from the Catalan people yes or no ? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Two of the referendum organisers are now in jail, it has been reported tonight. They broke the law, that's what happens. What crime did they commit? In order the break the law you have to commit a crime so which crime did they commit ? Take your heed out the sand for a minute i know your against Calatan indpendence fair enough but put that to one side These people are democratic activists peaceful activists last i checked nothing wrong with that. Remember its Spain's government not willing to come to the table and talk making them look like dictators scumbags is what i call them It has been very well covered, the referendum was illegal, the courts ruled on it, and said it couldn't go ahead, and they ignored the courts. Try that in any country and you'll go to jail. Put the referendum and independence to one side So again which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? God am so glad you aint in charge or you would be happy to lock every person up for being peaceful and demonstrating Demonstrating is fine....holding an illegal referendum isn't....so im guessing there up in court for NOT upholding the law in there positions as policemen Was the EU referendum legally binding ? Thank you though for saying Demonstrating is not a crime and they have every right to do so. CLCC seems to think they broke the law for Demonstrating lol No the referendum in Spain or Catalonia wasn't and isn't legally binding....or legal as the courts had ruled against it as it was unconstitutional Thats not what i asked you i asked you was the EU referendum legally binding ? No it wasnt and has been ruled not to be...if you look up the meaning of referendum...but the result has been voted on in the UK parliament to move to the next stage The EU referendum was not legally binding, a Supreme Court judge hearing the Government’s appeal against the Brexit legal challenge has said ahead of the December court case. Thank you so the EU referendum was not legally binding. Are you against giving Catalonia a legal binding referendum ? The people of Catalonia elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum and thats a mandate from the people its Spain's government that is acting like dictators saying no and wont even come to the table to have talks to solve this. Spain government are fascist dickheads and the king along with them. Spanish government and Spanish police attacked democracy and that shit is not welcome I wonder all these people that are defending Catalonia and democracy willing be willing to remember that when Scotland has another independence referendum as we Scottish people elected the SNP on their manifesto to have the right to hold a referendum and thats a mandate from the people i just wonder how many will do the u-turn and act like little dictators saying the UK government should block a democratic right to hold an independence referendum for Scotland when the brexit deal is known Dont blame the Scottish people it was the Tories that fucked up with a non legally binding EU referendum and willing to go ahead with it no matter the cost Where are all the people telling the Tories to release the document that shows us all that Scotland and the North of England will be worse hit with brexit oh right bend over backwards and take it up the arse and put Scotland back in its place Rule Britannia eh You asked if the EU one was binding i answered...now if Spain wish to give them the same opportunity as Scotland then why not...and then it would be legal...the fact they didnt and they went ahead with it made it illegal...is that hard for you to understand
So your saying ignore all the people that elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum? Thats a mandate is it not ?
What else do you want the Catalan government to do ? They were elected by the people correct. They are even willing to talk the Spanish government and they keep saying no who do you think is looking like dictators in all this ?
Again i will point out the Catalan people elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum Thats democracy for you.
So what is it you want the Calalan government to do if the Spanish government are not willing to listen to the people of Catalonia ? You cant claim the majority are against independence
2million voted for independence then 900+ injured and 700,000 votes stole
Lets all be honest the Spanish government are pussies to allow a legally binding referendum on the fear the will lost all the money from Catalonia
THE Catalan regional government of Carles Puigdemont is preparing to hold a unilateral referendum on seceding from Spain on October 1st, which it says will be legally binding. Catalans will be asked whether they want to form an independent republic. But there is a problem: Spain’s democratic constitution of 1978, which was approved by more than 90% of Catalan voters, gave wide autonomy to the regions but affirmed “the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation”. Only the Spanish parliament can change the constitution. Mr Puigdemont’s referendum is therefore illegal, and Mariano Rajoy, Spain’s conservative prime minister, is determined to prevent it taking place.
https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2017/09/economist-explains-17
Did the people of Catalonia elected Puigdemont's party into government on a promise to hold a referendum yes or no ? Is that a mandate from the Catalan people yes or no ?
"read the articles on it if you can | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Two of the referendum organisers are now in jail, it has been reported tonight. They broke the law, that's what happens. What crime did they commit? In order the break the law you have to commit a crime so which crime did they commit ? Take your heed out the sand for a minute i know your against Calatan indpendence fair enough but put that to one side These people are democratic activists peaceful activists last i checked nothing wrong with that. Remember its Spain's government not willing to come to the table and talk making them look like dictators scumbags is what i call them It has been very well covered, the referendum was illegal, the courts ruled on it, and said it couldn't go ahead, and they ignored the courts. Try that in any country and you'll go to jail. Put the referendum and independence to one side So again which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? God am so glad you aint in charge or you would be happy to lock every person up for being peaceful and demonstrating Demonstrating is fine....holding an illegal referendum isn't....so im guessing there up in court for NOT upholding the law in there positions as policemen Was the EU referendum legally binding ? Thank you though for saying Demonstrating is not a crime and they have every right to do so. CLCC seems to think they broke the law for Demonstrating lol No the referendum in Spain or Catalonia wasn't and isn't legally binding....or legal as the courts had ruled against it as it was unconstitutional Thats not what i asked you i asked you was the EU referendum legally binding ? No it wasnt and has been ruled not to be...if you look up the meaning of referendum...but the result has been voted on in the UK parliament to move to the next stage The EU referendum was not legally binding, a Supreme Court judge hearing the Government’s appeal against the Brexit legal challenge has said ahead of the December court case. Thank you so the EU referendum was not legally binding. Are you against giving Catalonia a legal binding referendum ? The people of Catalonia elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum and thats a mandate from the people its Spain's government that is acting like dictators saying no and wont even come to the table to have talks to solve this. Spain government are fascist dickheads and the king along with them. Spanish government and Spanish police attacked democracy and that shit is not welcome I wonder all these people that are defending Catalonia and democracy willing be willing to remember that when Scotland has another independence referendum as we Scottish people elected the SNP on their manifesto to have the right to hold a referendum and thats a mandate from the people i just wonder how many will do the u-turn and act like little dictators saying the UK government should block a democratic right to hold an independence referendum for Scotland when the brexit deal is known Dont blame the Scottish people it was the Tories that fucked up with a non legally binding EU referendum and willing to go ahead with it no matter the cost Where are all the people telling the Tories to release the document that shows us all that Scotland and the North of England will be worse hit with brexit oh right bend over backwards and take it up the arse and put Scotland back in its place Rule Britannia eh You asked if the EU one was binding i answered...now if Spain wish to give them the same opportunity as Scotland then why not...and then it would be legal...the fact they didnt and they went ahead with it made it illegal...is that hard for you to understand
So your saying ignore all the people that elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum? Thats a mandate is it not ?
What else do you want the Catalan government to do ? They were elected by the people correct. They are even willing to talk the Spanish government and they keep saying no who do you think is looking like dictators in all this ?
Again i will point out the Catalan people elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum Thats democracy for you.
So what is it you want the Calalan government to do if the Spanish government are not willing to listen to the people of Catalonia ? You cant claim the majority are against independence
2million voted for independence then 900+ injured and 700,000 votes stole
Lets all be honest the Spanish government are pussies to allow a legally binding referendum on the fear the will lost all the money from Catalonia
THE Catalan regional government of Carles Puigdemont is preparing to hold a unilateral referendum on seceding from Spain on October 1st, which it says will be legally binding. Catalans will be asked whether they want to form an independent republic. But there is a problem: Spain’s democratic constitution of 1978, which was approved by more than 90% of Catalan voters, gave wide autonomy to the regions but affirmed “the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation”. Only the Spanish parliament can change the constitution. Mr Puigdemont’s referendum is therefore illegal, and Mariano Rajoy, Spain’s conservative prime minister, is determined to prevent it taking place.
https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2017/09/economist-explains-17
Did the people of Catalonia elected Puigdemont's party into government on a promise to hold a referendum yes or no ? Is that a mandate from the Catalan people yes or no ?
read the articles on it if you can "No thanks try answering the question you shat out of lol Did the people of Catalonia elected Puigdemont's party into government on a promise to hold a referendum yes or no ? Is that a mandate from the Catalan people yes or no ? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Two of the referendum organisers are now in jail, it has been reported tonight. They broke the law, that's what happens. What crime did they commit? In order the break the law you have to commit a crime so which crime did they commit ? Take your heed out the sand for a minute i know your against Calatan indpendence fair enough but put that to one side These people are democratic activists peaceful activists last i checked nothing wrong with that. Remember its Spain's government not willing to come to the table and talk making them look like dictators scumbags is what i call them It has been very well covered, the referendum was illegal, the courts ruled on it, and said it couldn't go ahead, and they ignored the courts. Try that in any country and you'll go to jail. Put the referendum and independence to one side So again which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? God am so glad you aint in charge or you would be happy to lock every person up for being peaceful and demonstrating Demonstrating is fine....holding an illegal referendum isn't....so im guessing there up in court for NOT upholding the law in there positions as policemen Was the EU referendum legally binding ? Thank you though for saying Demonstrating is not a crime and they have every right to do so. CLCC seems to think they broke the law for Demonstrating lol No the referendum in Spain or Catalonia wasn't and isn't legally binding....or legal as the courts had ruled against it as it was unconstitutional Thats not what i asked you i asked you was the EU referendum legally binding ? No it wasnt and has been ruled not to be...if you look up the meaning of referendum...but the result has been voted on in the UK parliament to move to the next stage The EU referendum was not legally binding, a Supreme Court judge hearing the Government’s appeal against the Brexit legal challenge has said ahead of the December court case. Thank you so the EU referendum was not legally binding. Are you against giving Catalonia a legal binding referendum ? The people of Catalonia elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum and thats a mandate from the people its Spain's government that is acting like dictators saying no and wont even come to the table to have talks to solve this. Spain government are fascist dickheads and the king along with them. Spanish government and Spanish police attacked democracy and that shit is not welcome I wonder all these people that are defending Catalonia and democracy willing be willing to remember that when Scotland has another independence referendum as we Scottish people elected the SNP on their manifesto to have the right to hold a referendum and thats a mandate from the people i just wonder how many will do the u-turn and act like little dictators saying the UK government should block a democratic right to hold an independence referendum for Scotland when the brexit deal is known Dont blame the Scottish people it was the Tories that fucked up with a non legally binding EU referendum and willing to go ahead with it no matter the cost Where are all the people telling the Tories to release the document that shows us all that Scotland and the North of England will be worse hit with brexit oh right bend over backwards and take it up the arse and put Scotland back in its place Rule Britannia eh You asked if the EU one was binding i answered...now if Spain wish to give them the same opportunity as Scotland then why not...and then it would be legal...the fact they didnt and they went ahead with it made it illegal...is that hard for you to understand
So your saying ignore all the people that elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum? Thats a mandate is it not ?
What else do you want the Catalan government to do ? They were elected by the people correct. They are even willing to talk the Spanish government and they keep saying no who do you think is looking like dictators in all this ?
Again i will point out the Catalan people elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum Thats democracy for you.
So what is it you want the Calalan government to do if the Spanish government are not willing to listen to the people of Catalonia ? You cant claim the majority are against independence
2million voted for independence then 900+ injured and 700,000 votes stole
Lets all be honest the Spanish government are pussies to allow a legally binding referendum on the fear the will lost all the money from Catalonia
THE Catalan regional government of Carles Puigdemont is preparing to hold a unilateral referendum on seceding from Spain on October 1st, which it says will be legally binding. Catalans will be asked whether they want to form an independent republic. But there is a problem: Spain’s democratic constitution of 1978, which was approved by more than 90% of Catalan voters, gave wide autonomy to the regions but affirmed “the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation”. Only the Spanish parliament can change the constitution. Mr Puigdemont’s referendum is therefore illegal, and Mariano Rajoy, Spain’s conservative prime minister, is determined to prevent it taking place.
https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2017/09/economist-explains-17
Did the people of Catalonia elected Puigdemont's party into government on a promise to hold a referendum yes or no ? Is that a mandate from the Catalan people yes or no ?
read the articles on it if you can
No thanks try answering the question you shat out of lol
Did the people of Catalonia elected Puigdemont's party into government on a promise to hold a referendum yes or no ? Is that a mandate from the Catalan people yes or no ?
"It's only a mandate if it's done by legal process, and in this case, it wasn't. People didn't vote for anarchy. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Two of the referendum organisers are now in jail, it has been reported tonight. They broke the law, that's what happens. What crime did they commit? In order the break the law you have to commit a crime so which crime did they commit ? Take your heed out the sand for a minute i know your against Calatan indpendence fair enough but put that to one side These people are democratic activists peaceful activists last i checked nothing wrong with that. Remember its Spain's government not willing to come to the table and talk making them look like dictators scumbags is what i call them It has been very well covered, the referendum was illegal, the courts ruled on it, and said it couldn't go ahead, and they ignored the courts. Try that in any country and you'll go to jail. Put the referendum and independence to one side So again which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? God am so glad you aint in charge or you would be happy to lock every person up for being peaceful and demonstrating Demonstrating is fine....holding an illegal referendum isn't....so im guessing there up in court for NOT upholding the law in there positions as policemen Was the EU referendum legally binding ? Thank you though for saying Demonstrating is not a crime and they have every right to do so. CLCC seems to think they broke the law for Demonstrating lol No the referendum in Spain or Catalonia wasn't and isn't legally binding....or legal as the courts had ruled against it as it was unconstitutional Thats not what i asked you i asked you was the EU referendum legally binding ? No it wasnt and has been ruled not to be...if you look up the meaning of referendum...but the result has been voted on in the UK parliament to move to the next stage The EU referendum was not legally binding, a Supreme Court judge hearing the Government’s appeal against the Brexit legal challenge has said ahead of the December court case. Thank you so the EU referendum was not legally binding. Are you against giving Catalonia a legal binding referendum ? The people of Catalonia elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum and thats a mandate from the people its Spain's government that is acting like dictators saying no and wont even come to the table to have talks to solve this. Spain government are fascist dickheads and the king along with them. Spanish government and Spanish police attacked democracy and that shit is not welcome I wonder all these people that are defending Catalonia and democracy willing be willing to remember that when Scotland has another independence referendum as we Scottish people elected the SNP on their manifesto to have the right to hold a referendum and thats a mandate from the people i just wonder how many will do the u-turn and act like little dictators saying the UK government should block a democratic right to hold an independence referendum for Scotland when the brexit deal is known Dont blame the Scottish people it was the Tories that fucked up with a non legally binding EU referendum and willing to go ahead with it no matter the cost Where are all the people telling the Tories to release the document that shows us all that Scotland and the North of England will be worse hit with brexit oh right bend over backwards and take it up the arse and put Scotland back in its place Rule Britannia eh You asked if the EU one was binding i answered...now if Spain wish to give them the same opportunity as Scotland then why not...and then it would be legal...the fact they didnt and they went ahead with it made it illegal...is that hard for you to understand
So your saying ignore all the people that elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum? Thats a mandate is it not ?
What else do you want the Catalan government to do ? They were elected by the people correct. They are even willing to talk the Spanish government and they keep saying no who do you think is looking like dictators in all this ?
Again i will point out the Catalan people elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum Thats democracy for you.
So what is it you want the Calalan government to do if the Spanish government are not willing to listen to the people of Catalonia ? You cant claim the majority are against independence
2million voted for independence then 900+ injured and 700,000 votes stole
Lets all be honest the Spanish government are pussies to allow a legally binding referendum on the fear the will lost all the money from Catalonia
THE Catalan regional government of Carles Puigdemont is preparing to hold a unilateral referendum on seceding from Spain on October 1st, which it says will be legally binding. Catalans will be asked whether they want to form an independent republic. But there is a problem: Spain’s democratic constitution of 1978, which was approved by more than 90% of Catalan voters, gave wide autonomy to the regions but affirmed “the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation”. Only the Spanish parliament can change the constitution. Mr Puigdemont’s referendum is therefore illegal, and Mariano Rajoy, Spain’s conservative prime minister, is determined to prevent it taking place.
https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2017/09/economist-explains-17
Did the people of Catalonia elected Puigdemont's party into government on a promise to hold a referendum yes or no ? Is that a mandate from the Catalan people yes or no ?
read the articles on it if you can
No thanks try answering the question you shat out of lol
Did the people of Catalonia elected Puigdemont's party into government on a promise to hold a referendum yes or no ? Is that a mandate from the Catalan people yes or no ?
It's only a mandate if it's done by legal process, and in this case, it wasn't.
People didn't vote for anarchy."Did the Catalan people vote for Puigdemont's party into government on a promise to hold a referendum yes or no ? What would you want the Catalan government do ? Why is it you think the Spanish government are pussies ? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda Which article of the UDHR do you think had been breached? Which part of bludgeoning and firing rubber bullets at innocent voters and peaceful demonstrators do you think wasn't excessive? You have referenced the EU’s stance on human rights, so which human right (as outlined in the articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) do you think was breached in this case? Yes absolutely I think the clue might be in the words I'm using ....... 'Rubber bullets - fired at innocent protestors - bludgeoning of innocent voters with batons' Add to that - Women pulled from polling stations by their hair and thrown down flights of stairs - elderly people pushed to ground, voters hit about the head and face with sticks, people on the ground kicked and punched - 900 injured If you have any doubts of UDHR articles being breached or have any doubts of the police using excessive force - I'd suggest you watch some film footage from 1st Oct and then run down the list of UDHR articles - I'm sure you will find more than one area of concern If you don't - it might be a good time to take a long look in the mirror and ask another question The phrase "rubber bullets" does not appear anywhere in the UDHR. It seems highly suspicious to me that you are so confident that what happened constitutes a violation of their human rights, yet you can name which human right was violated.
Oh dear!
The specific words 'Rubber Bullets' are not used in any articles - then it must be okay to use them against peaceful protesters then?
I'm guessing it doesn't mention dragging women from polling stations by their hair either?
Perhaps that little number comes under article 5 - Freedom from Degrading Treatment?
So that is the right that you think has been breached? "No one shall be subjected to torture or to
cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
It's just one of several
So you disagree that innocent women dragged publically from a polling station by their hair is degrading treatment?
Can you find any case law that says that meets the legal definition?
Yes shooting at innocent people is consider illegal
Can you find a case law which states differently?
You're confident that the police broke the law? Well in that case I'm sure you'll be able to provide some links to policemen being charged then, right? "Yes the police/military shooting and beating innocent people is illegal I think you willl find the Nuremberg trials sorted that one out for you | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Two of the referendum organisers are now in jail, it has been reported tonight. They broke the law, that's what happens. What crime did they commit? In order the break the law you have to commit a crime so which crime did they commit ? Take your heed out the sand for a minute i know your against Calatan indpendence fair enough but put that to one side These people are democratic activists peaceful activists last i checked nothing wrong with that. Remember its Spain's government not willing to come to the table and talk making them look like dictators scumbags is what i call them It has been very well covered, the referendum was illegal, the courts ruled on it, and said it couldn't go ahead, and they ignored the courts. Try that in any country and you'll go to jail. Put the referendum and independence to one side So again which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? God am so glad you aint in charge or you would be happy to lock every person up for being peaceful and demonstrating Demonstrating is fine....holding an illegal referendum isn't....so im guessing there up in court for NOT upholding the law in there positions as policemen Was the EU referendum legally binding ? Thank you though for saying Demonstrating is not a crime and they have every right to do so. CLCC seems to think they broke the law for Demonstrating lol No the referendum in Spain or Catalonia wasn't and isn't legally binding....or legal as the courts had ruled against it as it was unconstitutional Thats not what i asked you i asked you was the EU referendum legally binding ? No it wasnt and has been ruled not to be...if you look up the meaning of referendum...but the result has been voted on in the UK parliament to move to the next stage The EU referendum was not legally binding, a Supreme Court judge hearing the Government’s appeal against the Brexit legal challenge has said ahead of the December court case. Thank you so the EU referendum was not legally binding. Are you against giving Catalonia a legal binding referendum ? The people of Catalonia elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum and thats a mandate from the people its Spain's government that is acting like dictators saying no and wont even come to the table to have talks to solve this. Spain government are fascist dickheads and the king along with them. Spanish government and Spanish police attacked democracy and that shit is not welcome I wonder all these people that are defending Catalonia and democracy willing be willing to remember that when Scotland has another independence referendum as we Scottish people elected the SNP on their manifesto to have the right to hold a referendum and thats a mandate from the people i just wonder how many will do the u-turn and act like little dictators saying the UK government should block a democratic right to hold an independence referendum for Scotland when the brexit deal is known Dont blame the Scottish people it was the Tories that fucked up with a non legally binding EU referendum and willing to go ahead with it no matter the cost Where are all the people telling the Tories to release the document that shows us all that Scotland and the North of England will be worse hit with brexit oh right bend over backwards and take it up the arse and put Scotland back in its place Rule Britannia eh You asked if the EU one was binding i answered...now if Spain wish to give them the same opportunity as Scotland then why not...and then it would be legal...the fact they didnt and they went ahead with it made it illegal...is that hard for you to understand
So your saying ignore all the people that elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum? Thats a mandate is it not ?
What else do you want the Catalan government to do ? They were elected by the people correct. They are even willing to talk the Spanish government and they keep saying no who do you think is looking like dictators in all this ?
Again i will point out the Catalan people elected Puigdemont's party into government in Calatlonia with that promise to hold a referendum Thats democracy for you.
So what is it you want the Calalan government to do if the Spanish government are not willing to listen to the people of Catalonia ? You cant claim the majority are against independence
2million voted for independence then 900+ injured and 700,000 votes stole
Lets all be honest the Spanish government are pussies to allow a legally binding referendum on the fear the will lost all the money from Catalonia
THE Catalan regional government of Carles Puigdemont is preparing to hold a unilateral referendum on seceding from Spain on October 1st, which it says will be legally binding. Catalans will be asked whether they want to form an independent republic. But there is a problem: Spain’s democratic constitution of 1978, which was approved by more than 90% of Catalan voters, gave wide autonomy to the regions but affirmed “the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation”. Only the Spanish parliament can change the constitution. Mr Puigdemont’s referendum is therefore illegal, and Mariano Rajoy, Spain’s conservative prime minister, is determined to prevent it taking place.
https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2017/09/economist-explains-17
Did the people of Catalonia elected Puigdemont's party into government on a promise to hold a referendum yes or no ? Is that a mandate from the Catalan people yes or no ?
read the articles on it if you can
No thanks try answering the question you shat out of lol
Did the people of Catalonia elected Puigdemont's party into government on a promise to hold a referendum yes or no ? Is that a mandate from the Catalan people yes or no ?
It's only a mandate if it's done by legal process, and in this case, it wasn't.
People didn't vote for anarchy.
Did the Catalan people vote for Puigdemont's party into government on a promise to hold a referendum yes or no ?
What would you want the Catalan government do ?
Why is it you think the Spanish government are pussies ? "As usual, your posts are factually inaccurate, and as usual, you (deliberately) miss the point being made. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Two of the referendum organisers are now in jail, it has been reported tonight. They broke the law, that's what happens. What crime did they commit? In order the break the law you have to commit a crime so which crime did they commit ? Take your heed out the sand for a minute i know your against Calatan indpendence fair enough but put that to one side These people are democratic activists peaceful activists last i checked nothing wrong with that. Remember its Spain's government not willing to come to the table and talk making them look like dictators scumbags is what i call them It has been very well covered, the referendum was illegal, the courts ruled on it, and said it couldn't go ahead, and they ignored the courts. Try that in any country and you'll go to jail. Put the referendum and independence to one side So again which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? God am so glad you aint in charge or you would be happy to lock every person up for being peaceful and demonstrating Demonstrating is fine....holding an illegal referendum isn't....so im guessing there up in court for NOT upholding the law in there positions as policemen Was the EU referendum legally binding ? Thank you though for saying Demonstrating is not a crime and they have every right to do so. CLCC seems to think they broke the law for Demonstrating lol " No, I said that the 2 people who organised it broke the law. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda Which article of the UDHR do you think had been breached? Which part of bludgeoning and firing rubber bullets at innocent voters and peaceful demonstrators do you think wasn't excessive? You have referenced the EU’s stance on human rights, so which human right (as outlined in the articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) do you think was breached in this case? Yes absolutely I think the clue might be in the words I'm using ....... 'Rubber bullets - fired at innocent protestors - bludgeoning of innocent voters with batons' Add to that - Women pulled from polling stations by their hair and thrown down flights of stairs - elderly people pushed to ground, voters hit about the head and face with sticks, people on the ground kicked and punched - 900 injured If you have any doubts of UDHR articles being breached or have any doubts of the police using excessive force - I'd suggest you watch some film footage from 1st Oct and then run down the list of UDHR articles - I'm sure you will find more than one area of concern If you don't - it might be a good time to take a long look in the mirror and ask another question The phrase "rubber bullets" does not appear anywhere in the UDHR. It seems highly suspicious to me that you are so confident that what happened constitutes a violation of their human rights, yet you can name which human right was violated.
Oh dear!
The specific words 'Rubber Bullets' are not used in any articles - then it must be okay to use them against peaceful protesters then?
I'm guessing it doesn't mention dragging women from polling stations by their hair either?
Perhaps that little number comes under article 5 - Freedom from Degrading Treatment?
So that is the right that you think has been breached? "No one shall be subjected to torture or to
cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
It's just one of several
So you disagree that innocent women dragged publically from a polling station by their hair is degrading treatment?
Can you find any case law that says that meets the legal definition?
Yes shooting at innocent people is consider illegal
Can you find a case law which states differently?
You're confident that the police broke the law? Well in that case I'm sure you'll be able to provide some links to policemen being charged then, right?
Yes the police/military shooting and beating innocent people is illegal
I think you willl find the Nuremberg trials
sorted that one out for you "The Nazis weren't using rubber bullets. 
So give me the link to show that police have been charged for using the equipment provided to them by the Spanish government, and then I might believe you that they have broken the law. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Two of the referendum organisers are now in jail, it has been reported tonight." Just to clarify for those who have asked, they are being held on suspicion of sedition. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda Which article of the UDHR do you think had been breached? Which part of bludgeoning and firing rubber bullets at innocent voters and peaceful demonstrators do you think wasn't excessive? You have referenced the EU’s stance on human rights, so which human right (as outlined in the articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) do you think was breached in this case? Yes absolutely I think the clue might be in the words I'm using ....... 'Rubber bullets - fired at innocent protestors - bludgeoning of innocent voters with batons' Add to that - Women pulled from polling stations by their hair and thrown down flights of stairs - elderly people pushed to ground, voters hit about the head and face with sticks, people on the ground kicked and punched - 900 injured If you have any doubts of UDHR articles being breached or have any doubts of the police using excessive force - I'd suggest you watch some film footage from 1st Oct and then run down the list of UDHR articles - I'm sure you will find more than one area of concern If you don't - it might be a good time to take a long look in the mirror and ask another question The phrase "rubber bullets" does not appear anywhere in the UDHR. It seems highly suspicious to me that you are so confident that what happened constitutes a violation of their human rights, yet you can name which human right was violated.
Oh dear!
The specific words 'Rubber Bullets' are not used in any articles - then it must be okay to use them against peaceful protesters then?
I'm guessing it doesn't mention dragging women from polling stations by their hair either?
Perhaps that little number comes under article 5 - Freedom from Degrading Treatment?
So that is the right that you think has been breached? "No one shall be subjected to torture or to
cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
It's just one of several
So you disagree that innocent women dragged publically from a polling station by their hair is degrading treatment?
Can you find any case law that says that meets the legal definition?
Yes shooting at innocent people is consider illegal
Can you find a case law which states differently?
You're confident that the police broke the law? Well in that case I'm sure you'll be able to provide some links to policemen being charged then, right?
Yes the police/military shooting and beating innocent people is illegal
I think you willl find the Nuremberg trials
sorted that one out for you
The Nazis weren't using rubber bullets.
So give me the link to show that police have been charged for using the equipment provided to them by the Spanish government, and then I might believe you that they have broken the law. "The Nazi dictatorship didn't charge its military police for shooting and beating unarmed civilians either That was left to a higher authority Armed Police in all EU countries (you will be excluded soon) must abide by a set of 'Rules of Engagement' Provide the link and circumstances which allows Spanish or any other armed police to shoot peaceful, unarmed civilians | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda Which article of the UDHR do you think had been breached? Which part of bludgeoning and firing rubber bullets at innocent voters and peaceful demonstrators do you think wasn't excessive? You have referenced the EU’s stance on human rights, so which human right (as outlined in the articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) do you think was breached in this case? Yes absolutely I think the clue might be in the words I'm using ....... 'Rubber bullets - fired at innocent protestors - bludgeoning of innocent voters with batons' Add to that - Women pulled from polling stations by their hair and thrown down flights of stairs - elderly people pushed to ground, voters hit about the head and face with sticks, people on the ground kicked and punched - 900 injured If you have any doubts of UDHR articles being breached or have any doubts of the police using excessive force - I'd suggest you watch some film footage from 1st Oct and then run down the list of UDHR articles - I'm sure you will find more than one area of concern If you don't - it might be a good time to take a long look in the mirror and ask another question The phrase "rubber bullets" does not appear anywhere in the UDHR. It seems highly suspicious to me that you are so confident that what happened constitutes a violation of their human rights, yet you can name which human right was violated.
Oh dear!
The specific words 'Rubber Bullets' are not used in any articles - then it must be okay to use them against peaceful protesters then?
I'm guessing it doesn't mention dragging women from polling stations by their hair either?
Perhaps that little number comes under article 5 - Freedom from Degrading Treatment?
So that is the right that you think has been breached? "No one shall be subjected to torture or to
cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
It's just one of several
So you disagree that innocent women dragged publically from a polling station by their hair is degrading treatment?
Can you find any case law that says that meets the legal definition?
Yes shooting at innocent people is consider illegal
Can you find a case law which states differently?
You're confident that the police broke the law? Well in that case I'm sure you'll be able to provide some links to policemen being charged then, right?
Yes the police/military shooting and beating innocent people is illegal
I think you willl find the Nuremberg trials
sorted that one out for you
The Nazis weren't using rubber bullets.
So give me the link to show that police have been charged for using the equipment provided to them by the Spanish government, and then I might believe you that they have broken the law.
The Nazi dictatorship didn't charge its military police for shooting and beating unarmed civilians either
That was left to a higher authority
Armed Police in all EU countries (you will be excluded soon) must abide by a set of 'Rules of Engagement'
Provide the link and circumstances which allows Spanish or any other armed police to shoot peaceful, unarmed civilians
"Exactly, there is the ECHR now, any charges filed? Nope. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda Which article of the UDHR do you think had been breached? Which part of bludgeoning and firing rubber bullets at innocent voters and peaceful demonstrators do you think wasn't excessive? You have referenced the EU’s stance on human rights, so which human right (as outlined in the articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) do you think was breached in this case? Yes absolutely I think the clue might be in the words I'm using ....... 'Rubber bullets - fired at innocent protestors - bludgeoning of innocent voters with batons' Add to that - Women pulled from polling stations by their hair and thrown down flights of stairs - elderly people pushed to ground, voters hit about the head and face with sticks, people on the ground kicked and punched - 900 injured If you have any doubts of UDHR articles being breached or have any doubts of the police using excessive force - I'd suggest you watch some film footage from 1st Oct and then run down the list of UDHR articles - I'm sure you will find more than one area of concern If you don't - it might be a good time to take a long look in the mirror and ask another question The phrase "rubber bullets" does not appear anywhere in the UDHR. It seems highly suspicious to me that you are so confident that what happened constitutes a violation of their human rights, yet you can name which human right was violated.
Oh dear!
The specific words 'Rubber Bullets' are not used in any articles - then it must be okay to use them against peaceful protesters then?
I'm guessing it doesn't mention dragging women from polling stations by their hair either?
Perhaps that little number comes under article 5 - Freedom from Degrading Treatment?
So that is the right that you think has been breached? "No one shall be subjected to torture or to
cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
It's just one of several
So you disagree that innocent women dragged publically from a polling station by their hair is degrading treatment?
Can you find any case law that says that meets the legal definition?
Yes shooting at innocent people is consider illegal
Can you find a case law which states differently?
You're confident that the police broke the law? Well in that case I'm sure you'll be able to provide some links to policemen being charged then, right?
Yes the police/military shooting and beating innocent people is illegal
I think you willl find the Nuremberg trials
sorted that one out for you
The Nazis weren't using rubber bullets.
So give me the link to show that police have been charged for using the equipment provided to them by the Spanish government, and then I might believe you that they have broken the law.
The Nazi dictatorship didn't charge its military police for shooting and beating unarmed civilians either
That was left to a higher authority
Armed Police in all EU countries (you will be excluded soon) must abide by a set of 'Rules of Engagement'
Provide the link and circumstances which allows Spanish or any other armed police to shoot peaceful, unarmed civilians
Exactly, there is the ECHR now, any charges filed? Nope. "I think you will find investigations are under way as we speak | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda Which article of the UDHR do you think had been breached? Which part of bludgeoning and firing rubber bullets at innocent voters and peaceful demonstrators do you think wasn't excessive? You have referenced the EU’s stance on human rights, so which human right (as outlined in the articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) do you think was breached in this case? Yes absolutely I think the clue might be in the words I'm using ....... 'Rubber bullets - fired at innocent protestors - bludgeoning of innocent voters with batons' Add to that - Women pulled from polling stations by their hair and thrown down flights of stairs - elderly people pushed to ground, voters hit about the head and face with sticks, people on the ground kicked and punched - 900 injured If you have any doubts of UDHR articles being breached or have any doubts of the police using excessive force - I'd suggest you watch some film footage from 1st Oct and then run down the list of UDHR articles - I'm sure you will find more than one area of concern If you don't - it might be a good time to take a long look in the mirror and ask another question The phrase "rubber bullets" does not appear anywhere in the UDHR. It seems highly suspicious to me that you are so confident that what happened constitutes a violation of their human rights, yet you can name which human right was violated.
Oh dear!
The specific words 'Rubber Bullets' are not used in any articles - then it must be okay to use them against peaceful protesters then?
I'm guessing it doesn't mention dragging women from polling stations by their hair either?
Perhaps that little number comes under article 5 - Freedom from Degrading Treatment?
So that is the right that you think has been breached? "No one shall be subjected to torture or to
cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
It's just one of several
So you disagree that innocent women dragged publically from a polling station by their hair is degrading treatment?
Can you find any case law that says that meets the legal definition?
Yes shooting at innocent people is consider illegal
Can you find a case law which states differently?
You're confident that the police broke the law? Well in that case I'm sure you'll be able to provide some links to policemen being charged then, right?
Yes the police/military shooting and beating innocent people is illegal
I think you willl find the Nuremberg trials
sorted that one out for you
The Nazis weren't using rubber bullets.
So give me the link to show that police have been charged for using the equipment provided to them by the Spanish government, and then I might believe you that they have broken the law.
The Nazi dictatorship didn't charge its military police for shooting and beating unarmed civilians either
That was left to a higher authority
Armed Police in all EU countries (you will be excluded soon) must abide by a set of 'Rules of Engagement'
Provide the link and circumstances which allows Spanish or any other armed police to shoot peaceful, unarmed civilians
Exactly, there is the ECHR now, any charges filed? Nope.
I think you will find investigations are under way as we speak "Well I look forward to hearing the outcome. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda Which article of the UDHR do you think had been breached? Which part of bludgeoning and firing rubber bullets at innocent voters and peaceful demonstrators do you think wasn't excessive? You have referenced the EU’s stance on human rights, so which human right (as outlined in the articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) do you think was breached in this case? Yes absolutely I think the clue might be in the words I'm using ....... 'Rubber bullets - fired at innocent protestors - bludgeoning of innocent voters with batons' Add to that - Women pulled from polling stations by their hair and thrown down flights of stairs - elderly people pushed to ground, voters hit about the head and face with sticks, people on the ground kicked and punched - 900 injured If you have any doubts of UDHR articles being breached or have any doubts of the police using excessive force - I'd suggest you watch some film footage from 1st Oct and then run down the list of UDHR articles - I'm sure you will find more than one area of concern If you don't - it might be a good time to take a long look in the mirror and ask another question The phrase "rubber bullets" does not appear anywhere in the UDHR. It seems highly suspicious to me that you are so confident that what happened constitutes a violation of their human rights, yet you can name which human right was violated.
Oh dear!
The specific words 'Rubber Bullets' are not used in any articles - then it must be okay to use them against peaceful protesters then?
I'm guessing it doesn't mention dragging women from polling stations by their hair either?
Perhaps that little number comes under article 5 - Freedom from Degrading Treatment?
So that is the right that you think has been breached? "No one shall be subjected to torture or to
cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
It's just one of several
So you disagree that innocent women dragged publically from a polling station by their hair is degrading treatment?
Can you find any case law that says that meets the legal definition?
Yes shooting at innocent people is consider illegal
Can you find a case law which states differently?
You're confident that the police broke the law? Well in that case I'm sure you'll be able to provide some links to policemen being charged then, right?
Yes the police/military shooting and beating innocent people is illegal
I think you willl find the Nuremberg trials
sorted that one out for you
The Nazis weren't using rubber bullets.
So give me the link to show that police have been charged for using the equipment provided to them by the Spanish government, and then I might believe you that they have broken the law.
The Nazi dictatorship didn't charge its military police for shooting and beating unarmed civilians either
That was left to a higher authority
Armed Police in all EU countries (you will be excluded soon) must abide by a set of 'Rules of Engagement'
Provide the link and circumstances which allows Spanish or any other armed police to shoot peaceful, unarmed civilians
Exactly, there is the ECHR now, any charges filed? Nope.
I think you will find investigations are under way as we speak
Well I look forward to hearing the outcome. "Not as much as me and the rest of the free thinking world! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda Which article of the UDHR do you think had been breached? Which part of bludgeoning and firing rubber bullets at innocent voters and peaceful demonstrators do you think wasn't excessive? You have referenced the EU’s stance on human rights, so which human right (as outlined in the articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) do you think was breached in this case? Yes absolutely I think the clue might be in the words I'm using ....... 'Rubber bullets - fired at innocent protestors - bludgeoning of innocent voters with batons' Add to that - Women pulled from polling stations by their hair and thrown down flights of stairs - elderly people pushed to ground, voters hit about the head and face with sticks, people on the ground kicked and punched - 900 injured If you have any doubts of UDHR articles being breached or have any doubts of the police using excessive force - I'd suggest you watch some film footage from 1st Oct and then run down the list of UDHR articles - I'm sure you will find more than one area of concern If you don't - it might be a good time to take a long look in the mirror and ask another question The phrase "rubber bullets" does not appear anywhere in the UDHR. It seems highly suspicious to me that you are so confident that what happened constitutes a violation of their human rights, yet you can name which human right was violated.
Oh dear!
The specific words 'Rubber Bullets' are not used in any articles - then it must be okay to use them against peaceful protesters then?
I'm guessing it doesn't mention dragging women from polling stations by their hair either?
Perhaps that little number comes under article 5 - Freedom from Degrading Treatment?
So that is the right that you think has been breached? "No one shall be subjected to torture or to
cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
It's just one of several
So you disagree that innocent women dragged publically from a polling station by their hair is degrading treatment?
Can you find any case law that says that meets the legal definition?
Yes shooting at innocent people is consider illegal
Can you find a case law which states differently?
You're confident that the police broke the law? Well in that case I'm sure you'll be able to provide some links to policemen being charged then, right?
Yes the police/military shooting and beating innocent people is illegal
I think you willl find the Nuremberg trials
sorted that one out for you
The Nazis weren't using rubber bullets.
So give me the link to show that police have been charged for using the equipment provided to them by the Spanish government, and then I might believe you that they have broken the law.
The Nazi dictatorship didn't charge its military police for shooting and beating unarmed civilians either
That was left to a higher authority
Armed Police in all EU countries (you will be excluded soon) must abide by a set of 'Rules of Engagement'
Provide the link and circumstances which allows Spanish or any other armed police to shoot peaceful, unarmed civilians
Exactly, there is the ECHR now, any charges filed? Nope.
I think you will find investigations are under way as we speak
Well I look forward to hearing the outcome.
Not as much as me and the rest of the free thinking world!
"Yeah? You've got a big interest in human rights have you? Do you work in the field, or perhaps you have an educational background in human rights/development/conflict resolution? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"CLCC So which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Do you think the people that stood outside Downing Street organising peaceful demonstrations to get the Tories out should be jailed too then ? In order to break the law you ave to commit a crime which crime was commited ? Please dont give me the referendum crap i said for you to put that to one side and deal with what am asking you." Look up 'Incitement to disaffection' (Treason Act), used to carry the death penalty... I have no idea of Spanish law but I am sure they have an equivalent, as I am sure does every other sovereign state. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"CLCC So which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Do you think the people that stood outside Downing Street organising peaceful demonstrations to get the Tories out should be jailed too then ? In order to break the law you ave to commit a crime which crime was commited ? Please dont give me the referendum crap i said for you to put that to one side and deal with what am asking you." Sedition. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"CLCC So which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Do you think the people that stood outside Downing Street organising peaceful demonstrations to get the Tories out should be jailed too then ? In order to break the law you ave to commit a crime which crime was commited ? Please dont give me the referendum crap i said for you to put that to one side and deal with what am asking you. Sedition. " So you telling me you would send everyone to jail that organising peaceful demonstrations now ? So you think people going out and showing peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Lost it now that is fucking crazy Its good to see the people of Barcelona out with candles and silence. Massive protest in every Catalan city against the arrest of two pro independence civil society leaders the elite wont shut people up | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"CLCC So which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Do you think the people that stood outside Downing Street organising peaceful demonstrations to get the Tories out should be jailed too then ? In order to break the law you ave to commit a crime which crime was commited ? Please dont give me the referendum crap i said for you to put that to one side and deal with what am asking you. Sedition. So you telling me you would send everyone to jail that organising peaceful demonstrations now ? So you think people going out and showing peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Lost it now that is fucking crazy Its good to see the people of Barcelona out with candles and silence. Massive protest in every Catalan city against the arrest of two pro independence civil society leaders the elite wont shut people up " No, I'm telling you what crime they are being held for. Sedition. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"CLCC So which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Do you think the people that stood outside Downing Street organising peaceful demonstrations to get the Tories out should be jailed too then ? In order to break the law you ave to commit a crime which crime was commited ? Please dont give me the referendum crap i said for you to put that to one side and deal with what am asking you. Sedition. So you telling me you would send everyone to jail that organising peaceful demonstrations now ? So you think people going out and showing peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Lost it now that is fucking crazy Its good to see the people of Barcelona out with candles and silence. Massive protest in every Catalan city against the arrest of two pro independence civil society leaders the elite wont shut people up No, I'm telling you what crime they are being held for. Sedition." Were they fighing anyone ? Were they using any kind of violence ? Or were they being peaceful ? I cant believe what am seeing that people are happy to accept sending people to jail for what organising peaceful demonstrations I get your all for Spain staying together but when is it too much for you that you would happy see someone go to jail for organising peaceful demonstrations So if i went out on George Sq in Glasgow and went and organised peaceful demonstrations for independence you would happy see me go to jail? When did this became nazi Germany ? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"CLCC So which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Do you think the people that stood outside Downing Street organising peaceful demonstrations to get the Tories out should be jailed too then ? In order to break the law you ave to commit a crime which crime was commited ? Please dont give me the referendum crap i said for you to put that to one side and deal with what am asking you. Sedition. So you telling me you would send everyone to jail that organising peaceful demonstrations now ? So you think people going out and showing peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Lost it now that is fucking crazy Its good to see the people of Barcelona out with candles and silence. Massive protest in every Catalan city against the arrest of two pro independence civil society leaders the elite wont shut people up No, I'm telling you what crime they are being held for. Sedition. Were they fighing anyone ? Were they using any kind of violence ? Or were they being peaceful ? I cant believe what am seeing that people are happy to accept sending people to jail for what organising peaceful demonstrations I get your all for Spain staying together but when is it too much for you that you would happy see someone go to jail for organising peaceful demonstrations So if i went out on George Sq in Glasgow and went and organised peaceful demonstrations for independence you would happy see me go to jail? When did this became nazi Germany ? " They are being held for sedition, not protesting. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda Which article of the UDHR do you think had been breached? Which part of bludgeoning and firing rubber bullets at innocent voters and peaceful demonstrators do you think wasn't excessive? You have referenced the EU’s stance on human rights, so which human right (as outlined in the articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) do you think was breached in this case? Yes absolutely I think the clue might be in the words I'm using ....... 'Rubber bullets - fired at innocent protestors - bludgeoning of innocent voters with batons' Add to that - Women pulled from polling stations by their hair and thrown down flights of stairs - elderly people pushed to ground, voters hit about the head and face with sticks, people on the ground kicked and punched - 900 injured If you have any doubts of UDHR articles being breached or have any doubts of the police using excessive force - I'd suggest you watch some film footage from 1st Oct and then run down the list of UDHR articles - I'm sure you will find more than one area of concern If you don't - it might be a good time to take a long look in the mirror and ask another question The phrase "rubber bullets" does not appear anywhere in the UDHR. It seems highly suspicious to me that you are so confident that what happened constitutes a violation of their human rights, yet you can name which human right was violated.
Oh dear!
The specific words 'Rubber Bullets' are not used in any articles - then it must be okay to use them against peaceful protesters then?
I'm guessing it doesn't mention dragging women from polling stations by their hair either?
Perhaps that little number comes under article 5 - Freedom from Degrading Treatment?
So that is the right that you think has been breached? "No one shall be subjected to torture or to
cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
It's just one of several
So you disagree that innocent women dragged publically from a polling station by their hair is degrading treatment?
Can you find any case law that says that meets the legal definition?
Yes shooting at innocent people is consider illegal
Can you find a case law which states differently?
You're confident that the police broke the law? Well in that case I'm sure you'll be able to provide some links to policemen being charged then, right?
Yes the police/military shooting and beating innocent people is illegal
I think you willl find the Nuremberg trials
sorted that one out for you
The Nazis weren't using rubber bullets.
So give me the link to show that police have been charged for using the equipment provided to them by the Spanish government, and then I might believe you that they have broken the law.
The Nazi dictatorship didn't charge its military police for shooting and beating unarmed civilians either
That was left to a higher authority
Armed Police in all EU countries (you will be excluded soon) must abide by a set of 'Rules of Engagement'
Provide the link and circumstances which allows Spanish or any other armed police to shoot peaceful, unarmed civilians
Exactly, there is the ECHR now, any charges filed? Nope.
I think you will find investigations are under way as we speak
Well I look forward to hearing the outcome.
Not as much as me and the rest of the free thinking world!
Yeah? You've got a big interest in human rights have you? Do you work in the field, or perhaps you have an educational background in human rights/development/conflict resolution? "
I'm not sure why you feel the need to question my education
I am discussing these topics in your language not my own - If my English is not gramatically correct at times - I can only apologise
I'm happy to discuss Human Rights Isses in another language if you prefer?
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"CLCC So which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Do you think the people that stood outside Downing Street organising peaceful demonstrations to get the Tories out should be jailed too then ? In order to break the law you ave to commit a crime which crime was commited ? Please dont give me the referendum crap i said for you to put that to one side and deal with what am asking you. Sedition. So you telling me you would send everyone to jail that organising peaceful demonstrations now ? So you think people going out and showing peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Lost it now that is fucking crazy Its good to see the people of Barcelona out with candles and silence. Massive protest in every Catalan city against the arrest of two pro independence civil society leaders the elite wont shut people up No, I'm telling you what crime they are being held for. Sedition. Were they fighing anyone ? Were they using any kind of violence ? Or were they being peaceful ? I cant believe what am seeing that people are happy to accept sending people to jail for what organising peaceful demonstrations I get your all for Spain staying together but when is it too much for you that you would happy see someone go to jail for organising peaceful demonstrations So if i went out on George Sq in Glasgow and went and organised peaceful demonstrations for independence you would happy see me go to jail? When did this became nazi Germany ? They are being held for sedition, not protesting. " Right see the next time you have a go at me not answering your questions remember this as i will point out you didnt answer my questions above You do see ? mark above but failed to answer | |||
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"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda Which article of the UDHR do you think had been breached? Which part of bludgeoning and firing rubber bullets at innocent voters and peaceful demonstrators do you think wasn't excessive? You have referenced the EU’s stance on human rights, so which human right (as outlined in the articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) do you think was breached in this case? Yes absolutely I think the clue might be in the words I'm using ....... 'Rubber bullets - fired at innocent protestors - bludgeoning of innocent voters with batons' Add to that - Women pulled from polling stations by their hair and thrown down flights of stairs - elderly people pushed to ground, voters hit about the head and face with sticks, people on the ground kicked and punched - 900 injured If you have any doubts of UDHR articles being breached or have any doubts of the police using excessive force - I'd suggest you watch some film footage from 1st Oct and then run down the list of UDHR articles - I'm sure you will find more than one area of concern If you don't - it might be a good time to take a long look in the mirror and ask another question The phrase "rubber bullets" does not appear anywhere in the UDHR. It seems highly suspicious to me that you are so confident that what happened constitutes a violation of their human rights, yet you can name which human right was violated.
Oh dear!
The specific words 'Rubber Bullets' are not used in any articles - then it must be okay to use them against peaceful protesters then?
I'm guessing it doesn't mention dragging women from polling stations by their hair either?
Perhaps that little number comes under article 5 - Freedom from Degrading Treatment?
So that is the right that you think has been breached? "No one shall be subjected to torture or to
cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
It's just one of several
So you disagree that innocent women dragged publically from a polling station by their hair is degrading treatment?
Can you find any case law that says that meets the legal definition?
Yes shooting at innocent people is consider illegal
Can you find a case law which states differently?
You're confident that the police broke the law? Well in that case I'm sure you'll be able to provide some links to policemen being charged then, right?
Yes the police/military shooting and beating innocent people is illegal
I think you willl find the Nuremberg trials
sorted that one out for you
The Nazis weren't using rubber bullets.
So give me the link to show that police have been charged for using the equipment provided to them by the Spanish government, and then I might believe you that they have broken the law.
The Nazi dictatorship didn't charge its military police for shooting and beating unarmed civilians either
That was left to a higher authority
Armed Police in all EU countries (you will be excluded soon) must abide by a set of 'Rules of Engagement'
Provide the link and circumstances which allows Spanish or any other armed police to shoot peaceful, unarmed civilians
Exactly, there is the ECHR now, any charges filed? Nope.
I think you will find investigations are under way as we speak
Well I look forward to hearing the outcome.
Not as much as me and the rest of the free thinking world!
Yeah? You've got a big interest in human rights have you? Do you work in the field, or perhaps you have an educational background in human rights/development/conflict resolution?
I'm not sure why you feel the need to question my education
I am discussing these topics in your language not my own - If my English is not gramatically correct at times - I can only apologise
I'm happy to discuss Human Rights Isses in another language if you prefer?
"I'm asking why you think you are more interested in it than other people. That might be, for example because you work in the field, have worked in the field, or have studied the subject. There may be other reasons why you are more interested in it than other people, Im just asking you why you are. | |||
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"CLCC So which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Do you think the people that stood outside Downing Street organising peaceful demonstrations to get the Tories out should be jailed too then ? In order to break the law you ave to commit a crime which crime was commited ? Please dont give me the referendum crap i said for you to put that to one side and deal with what am asking you. Sedition. So you telling me you would send everyone to jail that organising peaceful demonstrations now ? So you think people going out and showing peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Lost it now that is fucking crazy Its good to see the people of Barcelona out with candles and silence. Massive protest in every Catalan city against the arrest of two pro independence civil society leaders the elite wont shut people up No, I'm telling you what crime they are being held for. Sedition. Were they fighing anyone ? Were they using any kind of violence ? Or were they being peaceful ? I cant believe what am seeing that people are happy to accept sending people to jail for what organising peaceful demonstrations I get your all for Spain staying together but when is it too much for you that you would happy see someone go to jail for organising peaceful demonstrations So if i went out on George Sq in Glasgow and went and organised peaceful demonstrations for independence you would happy see me go to jail? When did this became nazi Germany ? They are being held for sedition, not protesting. Right see the next time you have a go at me not answering your questions remember this as i will point out you didnt answer my questions above You do see ? mark above but failed to answer " You asked "So which crime did these two people commit ?" I answered "sedition" your follow up questions were about things not related to the answer to the first question. But if you really really want to know, then no, this is not Nazi Germany. | |||
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"CLCC So which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Do you think the people that stood outside Downing Street organising peaceful demonstrations to get the Tories out should be jailed too then ? In order to break the law you ave to commit a crime which crime was commited ? Please dont give me the referendum crap i said for you to put that to one side and deal with what am asking you. Sedition. So you telling me you would send everyone to jail that organising peaceful demonstrations now ? So you think people going out and showing peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Lost it now that is fucking crazy Its good to see the people of Barcelona out with candles and silence. Massive protest in every Catalan city against the arrest of two pro independence civil society leaders the elite wont shut people up No, I'm telling you what crime they are being held for. Sedition. Were they fighing anyone ? Were they using any kind of violence ? Or were they being peaceful ? I cant believe what am seeing that people are happy to accept sending people to jail for what organising peaceful demonstrations I get your all for Spain staying together but when is it too much for you that you would happy see someone go to jail for organising peaceful demonstrations So if i went out on George Sq in Glasgow and went and organised peaceful demonstrations for independence you would happy see me go to jail? When did this became nazi Germany ? They are being held for sedition, not protesting. Right see the next time you have a go at me not answering your questions remember this as i will point out you didnt answer my questions above You do see ? mark above but failed to answer You asked "So which crime did these two people commit ?" I answered "sedition" your follow up questions were about things not related to the answer to the first question. But if you really really want to know, then no, this is not Nazi Germany. " So were these two people that were jailed being peaceful and not showing any kind of threat ? When is that a crime ? It if its not nazi Germany then organised peaceful demonstrations is not a crime ? | |||
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"CLCC So which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Do you think the people that stood outside Downing Street organising peaceful demonstrations to get the Tories out should be jailed too then ? In order to break the law you ave to commit a crime which crime was commited ? Please dont give me the referendum crap i said for you to put that to one side and deal with what am asking you. Sedition. So you telling me you would send everyone to jail that organising peaceful demonstrations now ? So you think people going out and showing peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Lost it now that is fucking crazy Its good to see the people of Barcelona out with candles and silence. Massive protest in every Catalan city against the arrest of two pro independence civil society leaders the elite wont shut people up No, I'm telling you what crime they are being held for. Sedition. Were they fighing anyone ? Were they using any kind of violence ? Or were they being peaceful ? I cant believe what am seeing that people are happy to accept sending people to jail for what organising peaceful demonstrations I get your all for Spain staying together but when is it too much for you that you would happy see someone go to jail for organising peaceful demonstrations So if i went out on George Sq in Glasgow and went and organised peaceful demonstrations for independence you would happy see me go to jail? When did this became nazi Germany ? They are being held for sedition, not protesting. Right see the next time you have a go at me not answering your questions remember this as i will point out you didnt answer my questions above You do see ? mark above but failed to answer You asked "So which crime did these two people commit ?" I answered "sedition" your follow up questions were about things not related to the answer to the first question. But if you really really want to know, then no, this is not Nazi Germany. So were these two people that were jailed being peaceful and not showing any kind of threat ? When is that a crime ? It if its not nazi Germany then organised peaceful demonstrations is not a crime ? " They were policemen....and they were asked to do there job....they failed in doing it....nothing to do with protesting at all | |||
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"CLCC So which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Do you think the people that stood outside Downing Street organising peaceful demonstrations to get the Tories out should be jailed too then ? In order to break the law you ave to commit a crime which crime was commited ? Please dont give me the referendum crap i said for you to put that to one side and deal with what am asking you. Sedition. So you telling me you would send everyone to jail that organising peaceful demonstrations now ? So you think people going out and showing peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Lost it now that is fucking crazy Its good to see the people of Barcelona out with candles and silence. Massive protest in every Catalan city against the arrest of two pro independence civil society leaders the elite wont shut people up No, I'm telling you what crime they are being held for. Sedition. Were they fighing anyone ? Were they using any kind of violence ? Or were they being peaceful ? I cant believe what am seeing that people are happy to accept sending people to jail for what organising peaceful demonstrations I get your all for Spain staying together but when is it too much for you that you would happy see someone go to jail for organising peaceful demonstrations So if i went out on George Sq in Glasgow and went and organised peaceful demonstrations for independence you would happy see me go to jail? When did this became nazi Germany ? They are being held for sedition, not protesting. Right see the next time you have a go at me not answering your questions remember this as i will point out you didnt answer my questions above You do see ? mark above but failed to answer You asked "So which crime did these two people commit ?" I answered "sedition" your follow up questions were about things not related to the answer to the first question. But if you really really want to know, then no, this is not Nazi Germany. So were these two people that were jailed being peaceful and not showing any kind of threat ? When is that a crime ? It if its not nazi Germany then organised peaceful demonstrations is not a crime ? " No, the crime was sedition, I feel that this has been pointed out to you several times now. Why are you referring to protesting? | |||
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"CLCC So which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Do you think the people that stood outside Downing Street organising peaceful demonstrations to get the Tories out should be jailed too then ? In order to break the law you ave to commit a crime which crime was commited ? Please dont give me the referendum crap i said for you to put that to one side and deal with what am asking you. Sedition. So you telling me you would send everyone to jail that organising peaceful demonstrations now ? So you think people going out and showing peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Lost it now that is fucking crazy Its good to see the people of Barcelona out with candles and silence. Massive protest in every Catalan city against the arrest of two pro independence civil society leaders the elite wont shut people up No, I'm telling you what crime they are being held for. Sedition. Were they fighing anyone ? Were they using any kind of violence ? Or were they being peaceful ? I cant believe what am seeing that people are happy to accept sending people to jail for what organising peaceful demonstrations I get your all for Spain staying together but when is it too much for you that you would happy see someone go to jail for organising peaceful demonstrations So if i went out on George Sq in Glasgow and went and organised peaceful demonstrations for independence you would happy see me go to jail? When did this became nazi Germany ? They are being held for sedition, not protesting. Right see the next time you have a go at me not answering your questions remember this as i will point out you didnt answer my questions above You do see ? mark above but failed to answer You asked "So which crime did these two people commit ?" I answered "sedition" your follow up questions were about things not related to the answer to the first question. But if you really really want to know, then no, this is not Nazi Germany. So were these two people that were jailed being peaceful and not showing any kind of threat ? When is that a crime ? It if its not nazi Germany then organised peaceful demonstrations is not a crime ? No, the crime was sedition, I feel that this has been pointed out to you several times now. Why are you referring to protesting?" Were they showing anyone any threat ? Would you lock people in jail that is showing no threat to anyone ? They organised peaceful demonstrations is that now a crime ? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"CLCC So which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Do you think the people that stood outside Downing Street organising peaceful demonstrations to get the Tories out should be jailed too then ? In order to break the law you ave to commit a crime which crime was commited ? Please dont give me the referendum crap i said for you to put that to one side and deal with what am asking you. Sedition. So you telling me you would send everyone to jail that organising peaceful demonstrations now ? So you think people going out and showing peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Lost it now that is fucking crazy Its good to see the people of Barcelona out with candles and silence. Massive protest in every Catalan city against the arrest of two pro independence civil society leaders the elite wont shut people up No, I'm telling you what crime they are being held for. Sedition. Were they fighing anyone ? Were they using any kind of violence ? Or were they being peaceful ? I cant believe what am seeing that people are happy to accept sending people to jail for what organising peaceful demonstrations I get your all for Spain staying together but when is it too much for you that you would happy see someone go to jail for organising peaceful demonstrations So if i went out on George Sq in Glasgow and went and organised peaceful demonstrations for independence you would happy see me go to jail? When did this became nazi Germany ? They are being held for sedition, not protesting. Right see the next time you have a go at me not answering your questions remember this as i will point out you didnt answer my questions above You do see ? mark above but failed to answer You asked "So which crime did these two people commit ?" I answered "sedition" your follow up questions were about things not related to the answer to the first question. But if you really really want to know, then no, this is not Nazi Germany. So were these two people that were jailed being peaceful and not showing any kind of threat ? When is that a crime ? It if its not nazi Germany then organised peaceful demonstrations is not a crime ? No, the crime was sedition, I feel that this has been pointed out to you several times now. Why are you referring to protesting? Were they showing anyone any threat ? Would you lock people in jail that is showing no threat to anyone ? They organised peaceful demonstrations is that now a crime ? " FFS what dont you get about NOTHING to do with protesting | |||
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"CLCC So which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Do you think the people that stood outside Downing Street organising peaceful demonstrations to get the Tories out should be jailed too then ? In order to break the law you ave to commit a crime which crime was commited ? Please dont give me the referendum crap i said for you to put that to one side and deal with what am asking you. Sedition. So you telling me you would send everyone to jail that organising peaceful demonstrations now ? So you think people going out and showing peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Lost it now that is fucking crazy Its good to see the people of Barcelona out with candles and silence. Massive protest in every Catalan city against the arrest of two pro independence civil society leaders the elite wont shut people up No, I'm telling you what crime they are being held for. Sedition. Were they fighing anyone ? Were they using any kind of violence ? Or were they being peaceful ? I cant believe what am seeing that people are happy to accept sending people to jail for what organising peaceful demonstrations I get your all for Spain staying together but when is it too much for you that you would happy see someone go to jail for organising peaceful demonstrations So if i went out on George Sq in Glasgow and went and organised peaceful demonstrations for independence you would happy see me go to jail? When did this became nazi Germany ? They are being held for sedition, not protesting. Right see the next time you have a go at me not answering your questions remember this as i will point out you didnt answer my questions above You do see ? mark above but failed to answer You asked "So which crime did these two people commit ?" I answered "sedition" your follow up questions were about things not related to the answer to the first question. But if you really really want to know, then no, this is not Nazi Germany. So were these two people that were jailed being peaceful and not showing any kind of threat ? When is that a crime ? It if its not nazi Germany then organised peaceful demonstrations is not a crime ? No, the crime was sedition, I feel that this has been pointed out to you several times now. Why are you referring to protesting? Were they showing anyone any threat ? Would you lock people in jail that is showing no threat to anyone ? They organised peaceful demonstrations is that now a crime ? " That's not what they were arrested for! They were arrested for sedition! | |||
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" FFS what dont you get about NOTHING to do with protesting "How thick can someone be? If someone murders someone, then buys an ice cream, does that make buying ice cream illegal? NO! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"CLCC So which crime did these two people commit ? So organising peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Do you think the people that stood outside Downing Street organising peaceful demonstrations to get the Tories out should be jailed too then ? In order to break the law you ave to commit a crime which crime was commited ? Please dont give me the referendum crap i said for you to put that to one side and deal with what am asking you. Sedition. So you telling me you would send everyone to jail that organising peaceful demonstrations now ? So you think people going out and showing peaceful demonstrations is now a crime ? Lost it now that is fucking crazy Its good to see the people of Barcelona out with candles and silence. Massive protest in every Catalan city against the arrest of two pro independence civil society leaders the elite wont shut people up No, I'm telling you what crime they are being held for. Sedition. Were they fighing anyone ? Were they using any kind of violence ? Or were they being peaceful ? I cant believe what am seeing that people are happy to accept sending people to jail for what organising peaceful demonstrations I get your all for Spain staying together but when is it too much for you that you would happy see someone go to jail for organising peaceful demonstrations So if i went out on George Sq in Glasgow and went and organised peaceful demonstrations for independence you would happy see me go to jail? When did this became nazi Germany ? They are being held for sedition, not protesting. Right see the next time you have a go at me not answering your questions remember this as i will point out you didnt answer my questions above You do see ? mark above but failed to answer You asked "So which crime did these two people commit ?" I answered "sedition" your follow up questions were about things not related to the answer to the first question. But if you really really want to know, then no, this is not Nazi Germany. So were these two people that were jailed being peaceful and not showing any kind of threat ? When is that a crime ? It if its not nazi Germany then organised peaceful demonstrations is not a crime ? No, the crime was sedition, I feel that this has been pointed out to you several times now. Why are you referring to protesting? Were they showing anyone any threat ? Would you lock people in jail that is showing no threat to anyone ? They organised peaceful demonstrations is that now a crime ? FFS what dont you get about NOTHING to do with protesting "Claim down get a hot chocolate in you lol Again no crime was committed were any of these two people threating anyone ? What am seeing he is some people are happy to send people to jail for what showing fuck all threat to anyone Most of Catalonia dont agree with you have you not seen the photos all over Catalonia tonight ? Sadly people seem to be agreeing with the way Spain is handling this | |||
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" FFS what dont you get about NOTHING to do with protesting
How thick can someone be? If someone murders someone, then buys an ice cream, does that make buying ice cream illegal? NO! "Im just not bothering anymore this guy is as stupid as they come | |||
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" FFS what dont you get about NOTHING to do with protesting
How thick can someone be? If someone murders someone, then buys an ice cream, does that make buying ice cream illegal? NO! "Yup there is that name calling shit going on in here again Tell me CLCC when have i ever called you name ? Yes i have called the Tories scumbags as i have no respect for them what they do to people that cant defend themselves But not once have i called any of you names yet i have been belittled on here name called help even made fun of for having dyslexia and i thought this was a site for fun and i enjoy debating with people on here but no when it comes to someone name calling its sick | |||
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" FFS what dont you get about NOTHING to do with protesting
How thick can someone be? If someone murders someone, then buys an ice cream, does that make buying ice cream illegal? NO!
Im just not bothering anymore this guy is as stupid as they come "Yup you are another one with the name calling must feel good eh | |||
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" FFS what dont you get about NOTHING to do with protesting
How thick can someone be? If someone murders someone, then buys an ice cream, does that make buying ice cream illegal? NO!
Not name calling just not going to respond as your not getting it...and its wasting both our times
Im just not bothering anymore this guy is as stupid as they come
Yup you are another one with the name calling must feel good eh" | |||
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" FFS what dont you get about NOTHING to do with protesting
How thick can someone be? If someone murders someone, then buys an ice cream, does that make buying ice cream illegal? NO!
Yup there is that name calling shit going on in here again
Tell me CLCC when have i ever called you name ?
Yes i have called the Tories scumbags as i have no respect for them what they do to people that cant defend themselves
But not once have i called any of you names yet i have been belittled on here name called help even made fun of for having dyslexia and i thought this was a site for fun and i enjoy debating with people on here but no when it comes to someone name calling its sick"You have repeatedly been told what they have been arrested for. It's not protesting, it's sedition. This is widely reported in the media and you have been told again and again on here, yet keep on asking again and again if protesting is illegal. So, just so we are 100% clear. 1. Protesting is not illegal (within reason). 2. They have NOT been arrested for protesting. 3. Sedition is illegal. 4. They have been arrested for sedition. I really don't think that can be any clearer. | |||
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" FFS what dont you get about NOTHING to do with protesting
How thick can someone be? If someone murders someone, then buys an ice cream, does that make buying ice cream illegal? NO!
Yup there is that name calling shit going on in here again
Tell me CLCC when have i ever called you name ?
Yes i have called the Tories scumbags as i have no respect for them what they do to people that cant defend themselves
But not once have i called any of you names yet i have been belittled on here name called help even made fun of for having dyslexia and i thought this was a site for fun and i enjoy debating with people on here but no when it comes to someone name calling its sick
You have repeatedly been told what they have been arrested for. It's not protesting, it's sedition. This is widely reported in the media and you have been told again and again on here, yet keep on asking again and again if protesting is illegal.
So, just so we are 100% clear.
1. Protesting is not illegal (within reason).
2. They have NOT been arrested for protesting.
3. Sedition is illegal.
4. They have been arrested for sedition.
I really don't think that can be any clearer."Ok simple question these two people that are in jail did they show any threat to anyone ? Did they attack anyone ? Answer is nope you didnt see any of that But what you did see was Spanish police but the fuck out of innocent people yet no jail time for any of them You know your on the wrong side I know your all for Spain staying together thats your opinion fair enough i wont argue that but surely you can even see this is wrong they way Spain is handling this whole thing They are not even willing to come to the table to have talks where as the Calalan government are willing to come to the table to have talks Spain will never win back the 2million people that voted to leave Spain and form their own state | |||
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" FFS what dont you get about NOTHING to do with protesting
How thick can someone be? If someone murders someone, then buys an ice cream, does that make buying ice cream illegal? NO!
Yup there is that name calling shit going on in here again
Tell me CLCC when have i ever called you name ?
Yes i have called the Tories scumbags as i have no respect for them what they do to people that cant defend themselves
But not once have i called any of you names yet i have been belittled on here name called help even made fun of for having dyslexia and i thought this was a site for fun and i enjoy debating with people on here but no when it comes to someone name calling its sick
You have repeatedly been told what they have been arrested for. It's not protesting, it's sedition. This is widely reported in the media and you have been told again and again on here, yet keep on asking again and again if protesting is illegal.
So, just so we are 100% clear.
1. Protesting is not illegal (within reason).
2. They have NOT been arrested for protesting.
3. Sedition is illegal.
4. They have been arrested for sedition.
I really don't think that can be any clearer.
Ok simple question these two people that are in jail did they show any threat to anyone ? Did they attack anyone ?
Answer is nope you didnt see any of that
But what you did see was Spanish police but the fuck out of innocent people yet no jail time for any of them
You know your on the wrong side
I know your all for Spain staying together thats your opinion fair enough i wont argue that but surely you can even see this is wrong they way Spain is handling this whole thing
They are not even willing to come to the table to have talks where as the Calalan government are willing to come to the table to have talks
Spain will never win back the 2million people that voted to leave Spain and form their own state "They haven't been arrested for threatening anyone. They haven't been arrested for attacking anyone. They have been arrested for sedition. How many times do you want to go over this? | |||
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"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda Which article of the UDHR do you think had been breached? Which part of bludgeoning and firing rubber bullets at innocent voters and peaceful demonstrators do you think wasn't excessive? You have referenced the EU’s stance on human rights, so which human right (as outlined in the articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) do you think was breached in this case? Yes absolutely I think the clue might be in the words I'm using ....... 'Rubber bullets - fired at innocent protestors - bludgeoning of innocent voters with batons' Add to that - Women pulled from polling stations by their hair and thrown down flights of stairs - elderly people pushed to ground, voters hit about the head and face with sticks, people on the ground kicked and punched - 900 injured If you have any doubts of UDHR articles being breached or have any doubts of the police using excessive force - I'd suggest you watch some film footage from 1st Oct and then run down the list of UDHR articles - I'm sure you will find more than one area of concern If you don't - it might be a good time to take a long look in the mirror and ask another question The phrase "rubber bullets" does not appear anywhere in the UDHR. It seems highly suspicious to me that you are so confident that what happened constitutes a violation of their human rights, yet you can name which human right was violated.
Oh dear!
The specific words 'Rubber Bullets' are not used in any articles - then it must be okay to use them against peaceful protesters then?
I'm guessing it doesn't mention dragging women from polling stations by their hair either?
Perhaps that little number comes under article 5 - Freedom from Degrading Treatment?
So that is the right that you think has been breached? "No one shall be subjected to torture or to
cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
It's just one of several
So you disagree that innocent women dragged publically from a polling station by their hair is degrading treatment?
Can you find any case law that says that meets the legal definition?
Yes shooting at innocent people is consider illegal
Can you find a case law which states differently?
You're confident that the police broke the law? Well in that case I'm sure you'll be able to provide some links to policemen being charged then, right?
Yes the police/military shooting and beating innocent people is illegal
I think you willl find the Nuremberg trials
sorted that one out for you
The Nazis weren't using rubber bullets.
So give me the link to show that police have been charged for using the equipment provided to them by the Spanish government, and then I might believe you that they have broken the law.
The Nazi dictatorship didn't charge its military police for shooting and beating unarmed civilians either
That was left to a higher authority
Armed Police in all EU countries (you will be excluded soon) must abide by a set of 'Rules of Engagement'
Provide the link and circumstances which allows Spanish or any other armed police to shoot peaceful, unarmed civilians
Exactly, there is the ECHR now, any charges filed? Nope.
I think you will find investigations are under way as we speak
Well I look forward to hearing the outcome.
Not as much as me and the rest of the free thinking world!
Yeah? You've got a big interest in human rights have you? Do you work in the field, or perhaps you have an educational background in human rights/development/conflict resolution?
I'm not sure why you feel the need to question my education
I am discussing these topics in your language not my own - If my English is not gramatically correct at times - I can only apologise
I'm happy to discuss Human Rights Isses in another language if you prefer?
I'm asking why you think you are more interested in it than other people. That might be, for example because you work in the field, have worked in the field, or have studied the subject. There may be other reasons why you are more interested in it than other people, Im just asking you why you are."I have some strong links to this subject yes - directly or indirectly through interest - work - education - experience and family This may surprise you but (under good terms) I'd prefer if Spain retains its unity But at the same time I both understand and respect the call from Catalunya for a referendum Their call for independence isn't so much about economics as stated but comes from a history of oppression Rajoy's tactics of oppressing them further will only serve as a counter-productive measure Rajoy is actually doing more for Catalan independence than any pro Catalan politician ever could | |||
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"The EU have at least clarified the situation.... if Catalonia did become independent in a second referendum they would have to set up their own, internationally recognised central bank, prove they have an acceptable level of debt compared to GDP, along with dozens of other criteria....and then apply to join the EU...... If that's made clear to their electorate then I can't see them doing anything than voting to remain as part of Spain. The solution has to be mediation...and more delegated regional powers. Spain being a very catholic country then the Vatican could be an acceptable mediator. Don't forget the hard border that will be required! The very same hard border as will be required in Ireland ? Yes, so it would be interesting the way it would happen. Would Spain put up a very hard border to frustrate the Catalonians, stiffle their trade? Whereas we want to work with Eire, Spain might not be so accommodating to Catalonia. I think you are right Mercury - Spain will treat Catalunya like it treats Gibraltar and will stifle their trade, freedom and way of life And sadly the EU will turn a blind eye Don't you normally complain about too much interference from the EU? Now you are complaining there is not enough! I'm not sure about "normally" complaining about EU interference - I can't recall making that statement once However it doesn't mean I always agree with them either By their unanimous silence over the police violence on Oct 1st, the EU's stance on Human Rights is rather worrying Their total silence has given Rajoy a free hand to continue using excessive force and violence The 'Human Rights Watch' have officially made a statement after detailed investigation that police used excessive force An organisation such as the EU which is supposedly a beacon for Human Rights, is instead looking rather shady - and seen to only stand for Human Rights issues when it fits their political agenda Which article of the UDHR do you think had been breached? Which part of bludgeoning and firing rubber bullets at innocent voters and peaceful demonstrators do you think wasn't excessive? You have referenced the EU’s stance on human rights, so which human right (as outlined in the articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) do you think was breached in this case? Yes absolutely I think the clue might be in the words I'm using ....... 'Rubber bullets - fired at innocent protestors - bludgeoning of innocent voters with batons' Add to that - Women pulled from polling stations by their hair and thrown down flights of stairs - elderly people pushed to ground, voters hit about the head and face with sticks, people on the ground kicked and punched - 900 injured If you have any doubts of UDHR articles being breached or have any doubts of the police using excessive force - I'd suggest you watch some film footage from 1st Oct and then run down the list of UDHR articles - I'm sure you will find more than one area of concern If you don't - it might be a good time to take a long look in the mirror and ask another question The phrase "rubber bullets" does not appear anywhere in the UDHR. It seems highly suspicious to me that you are so confident that what happened constitutes a violation of their human rights, yet you can name which human right was violated.
Oh dear!
The specific words 'Rubber Bullets' are not used in any articles - then it must be okay to use them against peaceful protesters then?
I'm guessing it doesn't mention dragging women from polling stations by their hair either?
Perhaps that little number comes under article 5 - Freedom from Degrading Treatment?
So that is the right that you think has been breached? "No one shall be subjected to torture or to
cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
It's just one of several
So you disagree that innocent women dragged publically from a polling station by their hair is degrading treatment?
Can you find any case law that says that meets the legal definition?
Yes shooting at innocent people is consider illegal
Can you find a case law which states differently?
You're confident that the police broke the law? Well in that case I'm sure you'll be able to provide some links to policemen being charged then, right?
Yes the police/military shooting and beating innocent people is illegal
I think you willl find the Nuremberg trials
sorted that one out for you
The Nazis weren't using rubber bullets.
So give me the link to show that police have been charged for using the equipment provided to them by the Spanish government, and then I might believe you that they have broken the law.
The Nazi dictatorship didn't charge its military police for shooting and beating unarmed civilians either
That was left to a higher authority
Armed Police in all EU countries (you will be excluded soon) must abide by a set of 'Rules of Engagement'
Provide the link and circumstances which allows Spanish or any other armed police to shoot peaceful, unarmed civilians
Exactly, there is the ECHR now, any charges filed? Nope.
I think you will find investigations are under way as we speak
Well I look forward to hearing the outcome.
Not as much as me and the rest of the free thinking world!
Yeah? You've got a big interest in human rights have you? Do you work in the field, or perhaps you have an educational background in human rights/development/conflict resolution?
I'm not sure why you feel the need to question my education
I am discussing these topics in your language not my own - If my English is not gramatically correct at times - I can only apologise
I'm happy to discuss Human Rights Isses in another language if you prefer?
I'm asking why you think you are more interested in it than other people. That might be, for example because you work in the field, have worked in the field, or have studied the subject. There may be other reasons why you are more interested in it than other people, Im just asking you why you are."I have some strong links to this subject yes - directly or indirectly through interest - work - education - experience and family This may surprise you but (under good terms) I'd prefer if Spain retains its unity But at the same time I both understand and respect the call from Catalunya for a referendum Their call for independence isn't so much about economics as stated but comes from a history of oppression Rajoy's tactics of oppressing them further will only serve as a counter-productive measure Rajoy is actually doing more for Catalan independence than any pro Catalan politician ever could | |||
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"One was legal and legitimate, the other wasn't. Guess which one? " He cant because he dosent understand | |||
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"37.42% of eligible electors supported Brexit. 38.47% of eligible electors supported Catalan independence " thats a spin and a half.... did you forget the bit where 80% of the population voted in the brexit referendum but only 42% of the catalan population voted in their referendum.... if you want to take you logic one step further.... you do realise only 37.81% of the eligible voters voted for scottish independence last time round....... 
just thought i'd let that stew for you..... | |||
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"Spain has decided to restore home rule and suspend Catalonian autonomy .Spain is getting tough." they can't just do that.... they need to get article 155 suspending the catalan parliament thru the spanish parliament 1st and there is a possibilty the current government don't have the votes for that..... | |||
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"Spain has decided to restore home rule and suspend Catalonian autonomy .Spain is getting tough. they can't just do that.... they need to get article 155 suspending the catalan parliament thru the spanish parliament 1st and there is a possibilty the current government don't have the votes for that....." This is where i will agree with you The Spanish government is looking very bad to the rest of the world anyone can see Rojoy and his wee pals is acting like little dictators And with a minority government they need help to pass article 155 in parliament Crazy decision from Rojoy considering the Catalan government asked for dialogue on the issue | |||
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"What do you call removing a government, taking over the media, stripping Parliament of powers, jailing activists Dictatorship or democracy? Lets just say the new elections take place in Catalonia and the Catalan people elected a pro indy majority then what from Rojoy and co will they then say they wont respect that vote Spain lost Catalonia the day they thought they could send their police in to beat the fuck out of innocent people showing no threat to anyone only simply using their democratic right to vote with a ballot paper By Rojoy saying no referendum took place he comes as cross as an evil bastard willing to hurt the very people that he wants to stay part of Spain prick of a man i couldnt care less about " What dont you get about it being illegal...there was no opposition to it...as they realised it was futile with it being illegal....just imagine if the region of Scotland did the same thing....im fairly sure the UK government would handle it just in the same way ....as they have proved in Nth Ireland in the past....you need to fact check what went on | |||
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"Oh calling a referendum , the said referendum being ruled illegal before the vote took place....Only 42% take part, with 90% of those voting to leave. I am puzzled as to how anyone thinks that is democracy in action." So seeing as 90% of 42% is approximately the same overall % as 52% of 70% I expect you are equally puzzled how anyone could think that the brexit referendum is seen by anyone as democracy in action. Just saying...  | |||
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"Oh calling a referendum , the said referendum being ruled illegal before the vote took place....Only 42% take part, with 90% of those voting to leave. I am puzzled as to how anyone thinks that is democracy in action. So seeing as 90% of 42% is approximately the same overall % as 52% of 70% I expect you are equally puzzled how anyone could think that the brexit referendum is seen by anyone as democracy in action. Just saying... " | |||
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"Oh calling a referendum , the said referendum being ruled illegal before the vote took place....Only 42% take part, with 90% of those voting to leave. I am puzzled as to how anyone thinks that is democracy in action. So seeing as 90% of 42% is approximately the same overall % as 52% of 70% I expect you are equally puzzled how anyone could think that the brexit referendum is seen by anyone as democracy in action. Just saying... "But dont forget the 48% that voted no as well....the difference between these two votes there was no NO vote in Catalonia...your just playing with figures....and tbh now i can see were Kinky gets his slanted view from as he agrees with you lol | |||
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"Oh calling a referendum , the said referendum being ruled illegal before the vote took place....Only 42% take part, with 90% of those voting to leave. I am puzzled as to how anyone thinks that is democracy in action. So seeing as 90% of 42% is approximately the same overall % as 52% of 70% I expect you are equally puzzled how anyone could think that the brexit referendum is seen by anyone as democracy in action. Just saying...
But dont forget the 48% that voted no as well....the difference between these two votes there was no NO vote in Catalonia...your just playing with figures....and tbh now i can see were Kinky gets his slanted view from as he agrees with you lol "Ok i have a question for you you keep saying there was no vote in Catalonia Then why did Rojoy feel the need to send in his police to beat the fuck out of people if no vote took place 1,000 people injured 700,000 ballots stole If injury people and steal ballot papers if not vote took place ? Like i said say the elections do take place and the people vote for a pro indy majority then what Rojoy saying he doesnt respect the election he has called ? | |||
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"Oh calling a referendum , the said referendum being ruled illegal before the vote took place....Only 42% take part, with 90% of those voting to leave. I am puzzled as to how anyone thinks that is democracy in action. So seeing as 90% of 42% is approximately the same overall % as 52% of 70% I expect you are equally puzzled how anyone could think that the brexit referendum is seen by anyone as democracy in action. Just saying...
But dont forget the 48% that voted no as well....the difference between these two votes there was no NO vote in Catalonia...your just playing with figures....and tbh now i can see were Kinky gets his slanted view from as he agrees with you lol
Ok i have a question for you you keep saying there was no vote in Catalonia
Then why did Rojoy feel the need to send in his police to beat the fuck out of people if no vote took place
1,000 people injured
700,000 ballots stole
If injury people and steal ballot papers if not vote took place ?
Like i said say the elections do take place and the people vote for a pro indy majority then what Rojoy saying he doesnt respect the election he has called ?
"There was no NO vote in Catalonia....the reason why there wasn't....because it was illegal....there was a yes and no vote in the EU referendum...reason being because it was legal....how easy is that to understand | |||
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"Oh calling a referendum , the said referendum being ruled illegal before the vote took place....Only 42% take part, with 90% of those voting to leave. I am puzzled as to how anyone thinks that is democracy in action. So seeing as 90% of 42% is approximately the same overall % as 52% of 70% I expect you are equally puzzled how anyone could think that the brexit referendum is seen by anyone as democracy in action. Just saying...
But dont forget the 48% that voted no as well....the difference between these two votes there was no NO vote in Catalonia...your just playing with figures....and tbh now i can see were Kinky gets his slanted view from as he agrees with you lol
Ok i have a question for you you keep saying there was no vote in Catalonia
Then why did Rojoy feel the need to send in his police to beat the fuck out of people if no vote took place
1,000 people injured
700,000 ballots stole
If injury people and steal ballot papers if not vote took place ?
Like i said say the elections do take place and the people vote for a pro indy majority then what Rojoy saying he doesnt respect the election he has called ?
There was no NO vote in Catalonia....the reason why there wasn't....because it was illegal....there was a yes and no vote in the EU referendum...reason being because it was legal....how easy is that to understand "Thats not what i asked you Try again.. If no vote took place in Catalonia then why did Rojoy feel the need to send in his police to beat the fuck out of people if no vote took place ? 1,000 people injured 700,000 ballots stole Why injury people and steal ballot papers if not vote took place ? Like i said say the elections do take place and the people vote for a pro indy majority then what Rojoy saying he doesnt respect the election he has called ? | |||
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"Oh calling a referendum , the said referendum being ruled illegal before the vote took place....Only 42% take part, with 90% of those voting to leave. I am puzzled as to how anyone thinks that is democracy in action. So seeing as 90% of 42% is approximately the same overall % as 52% of 70% I expect you are equally puzzled how anyone could think that the brexit referendum is seen by anyone as democracy in action. Just saying...
But dont forget the 48% that voted no as well....the difference between these two votes there was no NO vote in Catalonia...your just playing with figures....and tbh now i can see were Kinky gets his slanted view from as he agrees with you lol
Ok i have a question for you you keep saying there was no vote in Catalonia
Then why did Rojoy feel the need to send in his police to beat the fuck out of people if no vote took place
1,000 people injured
700,000 ballots stole
If injury people and steal ballot papers if not vote took place ?
Like i said say the elections do take place and the people vote for a pro indy majority then what Rojoy saying he doesnt respect the election he has called ?
There was no NO vote in Catalonia....the reason why there wasn't....because it was illegal....there was a yes and no vote in the EU referendum...reason being because it was legal....how easy is that to understand
Thats not what i asked you
Try again..
If no vote took place in Catalonia then why did Rojoy feel the need to send in his police to beat the fuck out of people if no vote took place ?
1,000 people injured
700,000 ballots stole
Why injury people and steal ballot papers if not vote took place ?
Like i said say the elections do take place and the people vote for a pro indy majority then what Rojoy saying he doesnt respect the election he has called ?
"Yes, it's impossible to comprehend why the police stopped illegal activity isn't it? I mean, shouldn't they be out there stopping people break the law? | |||
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"Oh calling a referendum , the said referendum being ruled illegal before the vote took place....Only 42% take part, with 90% of those voting to leave. I am puzzled as to how anyone thinks that is democracy in action. So seeing as 90% of 42% is approximately the same overall % as 52% of 70% I expect you are equally puzzled how anyone could think that the brexit referendum is seen by anyone as democracy in action. Just saying...
But dont forget the 48% that voted no as well....the difference between these two votes there was no NO vote in Catalonia...your just playing with figures....and tbh now i can see were Kinky gets his slanted view from as he agrees with you lol
Ok i have a question for you you keep saying there was no vote in Catalonia
Then why did Rojoy feel the need to send in his police to beat the fuck out of people if no vote took place
1,000 people injured
700,000 ballots stole
If injury people and steal ballot papers if not vote took place ?
Like i said say the elections do take place and the people vote for a pro indy majority then what Rojoy saying he doesnt respect the election he has called ?
There was no NO vote in Catalonia....the reason why there wasn't....because it was illegal....there was a yes and no vote in the EU referendum...reason being because it was legal....how easy is that to understand
Thats not what i asked you
Try again..
If no vote took place in Catalonia then why did Rojoy feel the need to send in his police to beat the fuck out of people if no vote took place ?
1,000 people injured
700,000 ballots stole
Why injury people and steal ballot papers if not vote took place ?
Like i said say the elections do take place and the people vote for a pro indy majority then what Rojoy saying he doesnt respect the election he has called ?
Yes, it's impossible to comprehend why the police stopped illegal activity isn't it? I mean, shouldn't they be out there stopping people break the law? "What illegal activity ? People were standing out in the streets holding their hands up showing no threat last time i checked that is not a crime If no vote took place in Catalonia they why beat the fuck out of people ? If the elections that Rojoy took place and the people voted a pro indy majority would you respect that ? Do you think Rojoy will respect it ? | |||
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"Oh calling a referendum , the said referendum being ruled illegal before the vote took place....Only 42% take part, with 90% of those voting to leave. I am puzzled as to how anyone thinks that is democracy in action. So seeing as 90% of 42% is approximately the same overall % as 52% of 70% I expect you are equally puzzled how anyone could think that the brexit referendum is seen by anyone as democracy in action. Just saying...
But dont forget the 48% that voted no as well....the difference between these two votes there was no NO vote in Catalonia...your just playing with figures....and tbh now i can see were Kinky gets his slanted view from as he agrees with you lol
Ok i have a question for you you keep saying there was no vote in Catalonia
Then why did Rojoy feel the need to send in his police to beat the fuck out of people if no vote took place
1,000 people injured
700,000 ballots stole
If injury people and steal ballot papers if not vote took place ?
Like i said say the elections do take place and the people vote for a pro indy majority then what Rojoy saying he doesnt respect the election he has called ?
There was no NO vote in Catalonia....the reason why there wasn't....because it was illegal....there was a yes and no vote in the EU referendum...reason being because it was legal....how easy is that to understand
Thats not what i asked you
Try again..
If no vote took place in Catalonia then why did Rojoy feel the need to send in his police to beat the fuck out of people if no vote took place ?
1,000 people injured
700,000 ballots stole
Why injury people and steal ballot papers if not vote took place ?
Like i said say the elections do take place and the people vote for a pro indy majority then what Rojoy saying he doesnt respect the election he has called ?
Yes, it's impossible to comprehend why the police stopped illegal activity isn't it? I mean, shouldn't they be out there stopping people break the law?
What illegal activity ? People were standing out in the streets holding their hands up showing no threat last time i checked that is not a crime
If no vote took place in Catalonia they why beat the fuck out of people ?
If the elections that Rojoy took place and the people voted a pro indy majority would you respect that ? Do you think Rojoy will respect it ?"Yeah, again Kinky, you are totally right. The Spanish police should completely ignore the ruling of their supreme court and should ask you what's legal and what's not. What's the best way to contact you, on the forum or in a PM? | |||
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"Oh calling a referendum , the said referendum being ruled illegal before the vote took place....Only 42% take part, with 90% of those voting to leave. I am puzzled as to how anyone thinks that is democracy in action. So seeing as 90% of 42% is approximately the same overall % as 52% of 70% I expect you are equally puzzled how anyone could think that the brexit referendum is seen by anyone as democracy in action. Just saying...
But dont forget the 48% that voted no as well....the difference between these two votes there was no NO vote in Catalonia...your just playing with figures....and tbh now i can see were Kinky gets his slanted view from as he agrees with you lol
Ok i have a question for you you keep saying there was no vote in Catalonia
Then why did Rojoy feel the need to send in his police to beat the fuck out of people if no vote took place
1,000 people injured
700,000 ballots stole
If injury people and steal ballot papers if not vote took place ?
Like i said say the elections do take place and the people vote for a pro indy majority then what Rojoy saying he doesnt respect the election he has called ?
There was no NO vote in Catalonia....the reason why there wasn't....because it was illegal....there was a yes and no vote in the EU referendum...reason being because it was legal....how easy is that to understand
Thats not what i asked you
Try again..
If no vote took place in Catalonia then why did Rojoy feel the need to send in his police to beat the fuck out of people if no vote took place ?
1,000 people injured
700,000 ballots stole
Why injury people and steal ballot papers if not vote took place ?
Like i said say the elections do take place and the people vote for a pro indy majority then what Rojoy saying he doesnt respect the election he has called ?
Yes, it's impossible to comprehend why the police stopped illegal activity isn't it? I mean, shouldn't they be out there stopping people break the law?
What illegal activity ? People were standing out in the streets holding their hands up showing no threat last time i checked that is not a crime
If no vote took place in Catalonia they why beat the fuck out of people ?
If the elections that Rojoy took place and the people voted a pro indy majority would you respect that ? Do you think Rojoy will respect it ?
Yeah, again Kinky, you are totally right. The Spanish police should completely ignore the ruling of their supreme court and should ask you what's legal and what's not. What's the best way to contact you, on the forum or in a PM? "CLCC are you honestly saying those people that stood out in the streets with their hands up in the air showing no threat deserved to be beaten up ? Again if the elections take place and the people vote to elect a pro indy majority do you think it should be respected ? Yes or No ? After all its the Spanish government is the ones wanting this election | |||
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"Constitutions are legal documents, and must be either followed, or amended. " So CLCC are you saying if these elections take place and the people elect a pro indy majority it has to be respected ? Or do you just ignore the vote ? Because you dont like the outcome | |||
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"There was no NO vote in Catalonia....the reason why there wasn't....because it was illegal....there was a yes and no vote in the EU referendum...reason being because it was legal....how easy is that to understand "but anyone who did not vote (regardless of the reason) cant complain because they had an opportunity and refused to use it... | |||
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"There was no NO vote in Catalonia....the reason why there wasn't....because it was illegal....there was a yes and no vote in the EU referendum...reason being because it was legal....how easy is that to understand
but anyone who did not vote (regardless of the reason) cant complain because they had an opportunity and refused to use it..."No it was an illegal vote....the people who abstained upheld the law....and of course they can complain just like we have done with the brexit article 50 being forced to be voted on by our courts...so basically the Tories should had told us all to fuck off and go for it like the Catalonia parliament have done | |||
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"No it was an illegal vote....the people who abstained upheld the law....and of course they can complain just like we have done with the brexit article 50 being forced to be voted on by our courts...so basically the Tories should had told us all to fuck off and go for it like the Catalonia parliament have done "So all that matters to you is that those with power gave permission for a vote here but did not in Catalonia... | |||
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"Where the right to self-determination, as enshrined in UN principles, comes up against a constitution or the desires of the statist status quo, then the latter must be amended to conform to the superior principle. If a composite nation state made up of several distinct nations does not meet the aspirations of one or more, as with the Basques or Catalans, it should leave it to a referendum to decide the future, not a constitution which is no longer fit for purpose. If one were to hold to Madrid's logic, there would be no women's suffrage or any other similar reforms. The establishment never willingly cedes any loss of its control. The proponents of the big state are abusers at heart. " How did we get devolution in the UK? | |||
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"How did we get devolution in the UK? " Devolution and separation are not the same thing. Devolution is about adding layers of governance and transferring the administration power to more local levels where appropriate while retaining overall centralised control. And the fact is devolution of power is not always a good thing. All one has to do is look at the NHS and how devolving power from the centre to local health trusts has led to an explosion in administration posts and a reduction in the ability to use total buying power as a bargaining tool with the pharmaceutical manufacturers leading to exponential cost increases. | |||
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"How did we get devolution in the UK? Devolution and separation are not the same thing. Devolution is about adding layers of governance and transferring the administration power to more local levels where appropriate while retaining overall centralised control. And the fact is devolution of power is not always a good thing. All one has to do is look at the NHS and how devolving power from the centre to local health trusts has led to an explosion in administration posts and a reduction in the ability to use total buying power as a bargaining tool with the pharmaceutical manufacturers leading to exponential cost increases. " Ok, how did we get women suffrage? | |||
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"Where the right to self-determination, as enshrined in UN principles, comes up against a constitution or the desires of the statist status quo, then the latter must be amended to conform to the superior principle. If a composite nation state made up of several distinct nations does not meet the aspirations of one or more, as with the Basques or Catalans, it should leave it to a referendum to decide the future, not a constitution which is no longer fit for purpose. If one were to hold to Madrid's logic, there would be no women's suffrage or any other similar reforms. The establishment never willingly cedes any loss of its control. The proponents of the big state are abusers at heart. How did we get devolution in the UK? " It was eventually part of the Good Friday Agreement, but promised to us all in 1979 if we voted to stay part of the UK, but then got forgotten about | |||
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"Where the right to self-determination, as enshrined in UN principles, comes up against a constitution or the desires of the statist status quo, then the latter must be amended to conform to the superior principle. If a composite nation state made up of several distinct nations does not meet the aspirations of one or more, as with the Basques or Catalans, it should leave it to a referendum to decide the future, not a constitution which is no longer fit for purpose. If one were to hold to Madrid's logic, there would be no women's suffrage or any other similar reforms. The establishment never willingly cedes any loss of its control. The proponents of the big state are abusers at heart. How did we get devolution in the UK? It was eventually part of the Good Friday Agreement, but promised to us all in 1979 if we voted to stay part of the UK, but then got forgotten about" Yeah? So Scotland and Wales signed the good friday agreement? | |||
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"Ok, how did we get women suffrage?" Again, suffrage, be it women's or universal is not about separation it is about representation. The issues are different even though those who seek the ultimate power of sovereignty would have us believe they are the same. | |||
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"Ok, how did we get women suffrage? Again, suffrage, be it women's or universal is not about separation it is about representation. The issues are different even though those who seek the ultimate power of sovereignty would have us believe they are the same." On both issues, suffrage and devolution, I was talking to this part of the post "The establishment never willingly cedes any loss of its control." Both examples are when the establishment did just that. | |||
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"Where the right to self-determination, as enshrined in UN principles, comes up against a constitution or the desires of the statist status quo, then the latter must be amended to conform to the superior principle. If a composite nation state made up of several distinct nations does not meet the aspirations of one or more, as with the Basques or Catalans, it should leave it to a referendum to decide the future, not a constitution which is no longer fit for purpose. If one were to hold to Madrid's logic, there would be no women's suffrage or any other similar reforms. The establishment never willingly cedes any loss of its control. The proponents of the big state are abusers at heart. How did we get devolution in the UK? It was eventually part of the Good Friday Agreement, but promised to us all in 1979 if we voted to stay part of the UK, but then got forgotten about Yeah? So Scotland and Wales signed the good friday agreement? " No, it was offered to Ireland to keep the peace, and it was offered to Wales and Scotland to not look like they were rewarding Ireland for blowing people up (on both sides), and because they were supposed to give it to us nearly 20 years previously but "forgot" | |||
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"Where the right to self-determination, as enshrined in UN principles, comes up against a constitution or the desires of the statist status quo, then the latter must be amended to conform to the superior principle. If a composite nation state made up of several distinct nations does not meet the aspirations of one or more, as with the Basques or Catalans, it should leave it to a referendum to decide the future, not a constitution which is no longer fit for purpose. If one were to hold to Madrid's logic, there would be no women's suffrage or any other similar reforms. The establishment never willingly cedes any loss of its control. The proponents of the big state are abusers at heart. How did we get devolution in the UK? It was eventually part of the Good Friday Agreement, but promised to us all in 1979 if we voted to stay part of the UK, but then got forgotten about Yeah? So Scotland and Wales signed the good friday agreement? No, it was offered to Ireland to keep the peace, and it was offered to Wales and Scotland to not look like they were rewarding Ireland for blowing people up (on both sides), and because they were supposed to give it to us nearly 20 years previously but "forgot"" Right right, I get it. So the Good Friday Agreement happened before the Scottish and Wales devolution referendums then? | |||
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"Where the right to self-determination, as enshrined in UN principles, comes up against a constitution or the desires of the statist status quo, then the latter must be amended to conform to the superior principle. If a composite nation state made up of several distinct nations does not meet the aspirations of one or more, as with the Basques or Catalans, it should leave it to a referendum to decide the future, not a constitution which is no longer fit for purpose. If one were to hold to Madrid's logic, there would be no women's suffrage or any other similar reforms. The establishment never willingly cedes any loss of its control. The proponents of the big state are abusers at heart. How did we get devolution in the UK? It was eventually part of the Good Friday Agreement, but promised to us all in 1979 if we voted to stay part of the UK, but then got forgotten about Yeah? So Scotland and Wales signed the good friday agreement? No, it was offered to Ireland to keep the peace, and it was offered to Wales and Scotland to not look like they were rewarding Ireland for blowing people up (on both sides), and because they were supposed to give it to us nearly 20 years previously but "forgot" Right right, I get it. So the Good Friday Agreement happened before the Scottish and Wales devolution referendums then?" The Good Friday Agreement was a bit more complicated than just devolution but included devolution. I don't believe Wales and Scotland would have been offered devolution it wasn't past of the deal for the Irish, even though it had already been promised to us nearly 20 years previously | |||
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"Where the right to self-determination, as enshrined in UN principles, comes up against a constitution or the desires of the statist status quo, then the latter must be amended to conform to the superior principle. If a composite nation state made up of several distinct nations does not meet the aspirations of one or more, as with the Basques or Catalans, it should leave it to a referendum to decide the future, not a constitution which is no longer fit for purpose. If one were to hold to Madrid's logic, there would be no women's suffrage or any other similar reforms. The establishment never willingly cedes any loss of its control. The proponents of the big state are abusers at heart. How did we get devolution in the UK? It was eventually part of the Good Friday Agreement, but promised to us all in 1979 if we voted to stay part of the UK, but then got forgotten about Yeah? So Scotland and Wales signed the good friday agreement? No, it was offered to Ireland to keep the peace, and it was offered to Wales and Scotland to not look like they were rewarding Ireland for blowing people up (on both sides), and because they were supposed to give it to us nearly 20 years previously but "forgot" Right right, I get it. So the Good Friday Agreement happened before the Scottish and Wales devolution referendums then? The Good Friday Agreement was a bit more complicated than just devolution but included devolution. I don't believe Wales and Scotland would have been offered devolution it wasn't past of the deal for the Irish, even though it had already been promised to us nearly 20 years previously" Oh, so the devolution for Scotland and Wales wasn’t as a result of the GFA? Is that because you just checked which came first and realised that we haven’t invented time travel just yet? | |||
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"Good news Catalan parliament to declare independence on Thursday. Also Statement of the fire fighters of Catalonia facing the Spanish threat of applying article 155 of their constitution ''We do not acknowledge any other authority than that of our President, our Government and our Parliament'' Thats the people that save lifes telling the Spanish government go fuck yourselves lol And they are saying they answer to their President and government " So they won't go to burning buildings anymore? I don't know why that would make you happy. | |||
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"Where the right to self-determination, as enshrined in UN principles, comes up against a constitution or the desires of the statist status quo, then the latter must be amended to conform to the superior principle. If a composite nation state made up of several distinct nations does not meet the aspirations of one or more, as with the Basques or Catalans, it should leave it to a referendum to decide the future, not a constitution which is no longer fit for purpose. If one were to hold to Madrid's logic, there would be no women's suffrage or any other similar reforms. The establishment never willingly cedes any loss of its control. The proponents of the big state are abusers at heart. How did we get devolution in the UK? It was eventually part of the Good Friday Agreement, but promised to us all in 1979 if we voted to stay part of the UK, but then got forgotten about Yeah? So Scotland and Wales signed the good friday agreement? No, it was offered to Ireland to keep the peace, and it was offered to Wales and Scotland to not look like they were rewarding Ireland for blowing people up (on both sides), and because they were supposed to give it to us nearly 20 years previously but "forgot" Right right, I get it. So the Good Friday Agreement happened before the Scottish and Wales devolution referendums then? The Good Friday Agreement was a bit more complicated than just devolution but included devolution. I don't believe Wales and Scotland would have been offered devolution it wasn't past of the deal for the Irish, even though it had already been promised to us nearly 20 years previously Oh, so the devolution for Scotland and Wales wasn’t as a result of the GFA? Is that because you just checked which came first and realised that we haven’t invented time travel just yet?" Yes of course it was! Why else do you think they suddenly remembered they promised it to us nearly 20 years previously?! | |||
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"Good news Catalan parliament to declare independence on Thursday. Also Statement of the fire fighters of Catalonia facing the Spanish threat of applying article 155 of their constitution ''We do not acknowledge any other authority than that of our President, our Government and our Parliament'' Thats the people that save lifes telling the Spanish government go fuck yourselves lol And they are saying they answer to their President and government So they won't go to burning buildings anymore? I don't know why that would make you happy." Who said that ? They are telling the Spanish government they dont answer to them. The have a President and government in Calalonia they answer to Do you not think its great to see those fire fighters stood infront of innocent people so they wouldnt be hurt as the Spanish police beat the fuck out of them ? | |||
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"Good news Catalan parliament to declare independence on Thursday. Also Statement of the fire fighters of Catalonia facing the Spanish threat of applying article 155 of their constitution ''We do not acknowledge any other authority than that of our President, our Government and our Parliament'' Thats the people that save lifes telling the Spanish government go fuck yourselves lol And they are saying they answer to their President and government So they won't go to burning buildings anymore? I don't know why that would make you happy. Who said that ? They are telling the Spanish government they dont answer to them. The have a President and government in Calalonia they answer to Do you not think its great to see those fire fighters stood infront of innocent people so they wouldnt be hurt as the Spanish police beat the fuck out of them ?" So if the Catalan autonomy is suspended, and Madrid tells them to keep doing their jobs, saving people from burning buildings, car accidents etc. Are they going to do what they are told by Madrid, or are they going to refuse and let people burn to death? This is what you have described as "good news" | |||
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"Good news Catalan parliament to declare independence on Thursday. Also Statement of the fire fighters of Catalonia facing the Spanish threat of applying article 155 of their constitution ''We do not acknowledge any other authority than that of our President, our Government and our Parliament'' Thats the people that save lifes telling the Spanish government go fuck yourselves lol And they are saying they answer to their President and government So they won't go to burning buildings anymore? I don't know why that would make you happy. Who said that ? They are telling the Spanish government they dont answer to them. The have a President and government in Calalonia they answer to Do you not think its great to see those fire fighters stood infront of innocent people so they wouldnt be hurt as the Spanish police beat the fuck out of them ? So if the Catalan autonomy is suspended, and Madrid tells them to keep doing their jobs, saving people from burning buildings, car accidents etc. Are they going to do what they are told by Madrid, or are they going to refuse and let people burn to death? This is what you have described as "good news" " Fucking hell do you get what UDI is ? Madrid wont be able to tell them fuck all lol They have a President and government elected by the people. Two questions for you CLCC Do you not think its great to see those fire fighters stood infront of innocent people so they wouldnt be hurt as the Spanish police beat the fuck out of them ? If the elections that the Spanish government want to take place happen and say the people elect a pro indy majority would you respect that ? Do you think Rajoy should respect that since its him that wants these elections ? | |||
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"Good news Catalan parliament to declare independence on Thursday. Also Statement of the fire fighters of Catalonia facing the Spanish threat of applying article 155 of their constitution ''We do not acknowledge any other authority than that of our President, our Government and our Parliament'' Thats the people that save lifes telling the Spanish government go fuck yourselves lol And they are saying they answer to their President and government So they won't go to burning buildings anymore? I don't know why that would make you happy. Who said that ? They are telling the Spanish government they dont answer to them. The have a President and government in Calalonia they answer to Do you not think its great to see those fire fighters stood infront of innocent people so they wouldnt be hurt as the Spanish police beat the fuck out of them ? So if the Catalan autonomy is suspended, and Madrid tells them to keep doing their jobs, saving people from burning buildings, car accidents etc. Are they going to do what they are told by Madrid, or are they going to refuse and let people burn to death? This is what you have described as "good news" Fucking hell do you get what UDI is ? Madrid wont be able to tell them fuck all lol They have a President and government elected by the people. Two questions for you CLCC Do you not think its great to see those fire fighters stood infront of innocent people so they wouldnt be hurt as the Spanish police beat the fuck out of them ? If the elections that the Spanish government want to take place happen and say the people elect a pro indy majority would you respect that ? Do you think Rajoy should respect that since its him that wants these elections ?" A declaration of independence does not equal independence | |||
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"Good news Catalan parliament to declare independence on Thursday. Also Statement of the fire fighters of Catalonia facing the Spanish threat of applying article 155 of their constitution ''We do not acknowledge any other authority than that of our President, our Government and our Parliament'' Thats the people that save lifes telling the Spanish government go fuck yourselves lol And they are saying they answer to their President and government So they won't go to burning buildings anymore? I don't know why that would make you happy. Who said that ? They are telling the Spanish government they dont answer to them. The have a President and government in Calalonia they answer to Do you not think its great to see those fire fighters stood infront of innocent people so they wouldnt be hurt as the Spanish police beat the fuck out of them ? So if the Catalan autonomy is suspended, and Madrid tells them to keep doing their jobs, saving people from burning buildings, car accidents etc. Are they going to do what they are told by Madrid, or are they going to refuse and let people burn to death? This is what you have described as "good news" Fucking hell do you get what UDI is ? Madrid wont be able to tell them fuck all lol They have a President and government elected by the people. Two questions for you CLCC Do you not think its great to see those fire fighters stood infront of innocent people so they wouldnt be hurt as the Spanish police beat the fuck out of them ? If the elections that the Spanish government want to take place happen and say the people elect a pro indy majority would you respect that ? Do you think Rajoy should respect that since its him that wants these elections ? A declaration of independence does not equal independence "So you dont think the USA is independent then ? CLCC still waiting on you answer these Do you not think its great to see those fire fighters stood infront of innocent people so they wouldnt be hurt as the Spanish police beat the fuck out of them ? If the elections that the Spanish government want to take place happen and say the people elect a pro indy majority would you respect that ? Do you think Rajoy should respect that since its him that wants these elections ? | |||
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"Good news Catalan parliament to declare independence on Thursday. Also Statement of the fire fighters of Catalonia facing the Spanish threat of applying article 155 of their constitution ''We do not acknowledge any other authority than that of our President, our Government and our Parliament'' Thats the people that save lifes telling the Spanish government go fuck yourselves lol And they are saying they answer to their President and government So they won't go to burning buildings anymore? I don't know why that would make you happy. Who said that ? They are telling the Spanish government they dont answer to them. The have a President and government in Calalonia they answer to Do you not think its great to see those fire fighters stood infront of innocent people so they wouldnt be hurt as the Spanish police beat the fuck out of them ? So if the Catalan autonomy is suspended, and Madrid tells them to keep doing their jobs, saving people from burning buildings, car accidents etc. Are they going to do what they are told by Madrid, or are they going to refuse and let people burn to death? This is what you have described as "good news" Fucking hell do you get what UDI is ? Madrid wont be able to tell them fuck all lol They have a President and government elected by the people. Two questions for you CLCC Do you not think its great to see those fire fighters stood infront of innocent people so they wouldnt be hurt as the Spanish police beat the fuck out of them ? If the elections that the Spanish government want to take place happen and say the people elect a pro indy majority would you respect that ? Do you think Rajoy should respect that since its him that wants these elections ? A declaration of independence does not equal independence
So you dont think the USA is independent then ?
CLCC still waiting on you answer these
Do you not think its great to see those fire fighters stood infront of innocent people so they wouldnt be hurt as the Spanish police beat the fuck out of them ?
If the elections that the Spanish government want to take place happen and say the people elect a pro indy majority would you respect that ? Do you think Rajoy should respect that since its him that wants these elections ?"Do you remember the war of independence? Yeah, that's what happens. | |||
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"Where the right to self-determination, as enshrined in UN principles, comes up against a constitution or the desires of the statist status quo, then the latter must be amended to conform to the superior principle. If a composite nation state made up of several distinct nations does not meet the aspirations of one or more, as with the Basques or Catalans, it should leave it to a referendum to decide the future, not a constitution which is no longer fit for purpose. If one were to hold to Madrid's logic, there would be no women's suffrage or any other similar reforms. The establishment never willingly cedes any loss of its control. The proponents of the big state are abusers at heart. How did we get devolution in the UK? It was eventually part of the Good Friday Agreement, but promised to us all in 1979 if we voted to stay part of the UK, but then got forgotten about Yeah? So Scotland and Wales signed the good friday agreement? No, it was offered to Ireland to keep the peace, and it was offered to Wales and Scotland to not look like they were rewarding Ireland for blowing people up (on both sides), and because they were supposed to give it to us nearly 20 years previously but "forgot" Right right, I get it. So the Good Friday Agreement happened before the Scottish and Wales devolution referendums then? The Good Friday Agreement was a bit more complicated than just devolution but included devolution. I don't believe Wales and Scotland would have been offered devolution it wasn't past of the deal for the Irish, even though it had already been promised to us nearly 20 years previously Oh, so the devolution for Scotland and Wales wasn’t as a result of the GFA? Is that because you just checked which came first and realised that we haven’t invented time travel just yet? Yes of course it was! Why else do you think they suddenly remembered they promised it to us nearly 20 years previously?! " Who is this "us" you keep on referring to? I think you'll find that devolution referendums were promised in the Labour manifesto 1997. | |||
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"Come on CLCC try answering questions So you dont think the USA is independent then ? Do you not think its great to see those fire fighters stood infront of innocent people so they wouldnt be hurt as the Spanish police beat the fuck out of them ? If the elections that the Spanish government want to take place happen and say the people elect a pro indy majority would you respect that ? Do you think Rajoy should respect that since its him that wants these elections ?"" The US fought a war of independence or revolution which resulted in the deaths of 115,000 - 160,000. Nice to see you are clapping your hands at the thought of the same happening in Spain. | |||
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"Where the right to self-determination, as enshrined in UN principles, comes up against a constitution or the desires of the statist status quo, then the latter must be amended to conform to the superior principle. If a composite nation state made up of several distinct nations does not meet the aspirations of one or more, as with the Basques or Catalans, it should leave it to a referendum to decide the future, not a constitution which is no longer fit for purpose. If one were to hold to Madrid's logic, there would be no women's suffrage or any other similar reforms. The establishment never willingly cedes any loss of its control. The proponents of the big state are abusers at heart. How did we get devolution in the UK? It was eventually part of the Good Friday Agreement, but promised to us all in 1979 if we voted to stay part of the UK, but then got forgotten about Yeah? So Scotland and Wales signed the good friday agreement? No, it was offered to Ireland to keep the peace, and it was offered to Wales and Scotland to not look like they were rewarding Ireland for blowing people up (on both sides), and because they were supposed to give it to us nearly 20 years previously but "forgot" Right right, I get it. So the Good Friday Agreement happened before the Scottish and Wales devolution referendums then? The Good Friday Agreement was a bit more complicated than just devolution but included devolution. I don't believe Wales and Scotland would have been offered devolution it wasn't past of the deal for the Irish, even though it had already been promised to us nearly 20 years previously Oh, so the devolution for Scotland and Wales wasn’t as a result of the GFA? Is that because you just checked which came first and realised that we haven’t invented time travel just yet? Yes of course it was! Why else do you think they suddenly remembered they promised it to us nearly 20 years previously?! Who is this "us" you keep on referring to? I think you'll find that devolution referendums were promised in the Labour manifesto 1997." You didn't answer the question. Why did the UK government suddenly remember about promising Wales and Scotland devolution in 1997 after nearly 20 years of kicking it in the long grass? I've got other things to do so I'll answer it for you. It was so when they offered it to Ireland as part of the Good Friday Agreement the Irish wouldn't think they were going to renege on their promise to them too | |||
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"Where the right to self-determination, as enshrined in UN principles, comes up against a constitution or the desires of the statist status quo, then the latter must be amended to conform to the superior principle. If a composite nation state made up of several distinct nations does not meet the aspirations of one or more, as with the Basques or Catalans, it should leave it to a referendum to decide the future, not a constitution which is no longer fit for purpose. If one were to hold to Madrid's logic, there would be no women's suffrage or any other similar reforms. The establishment never willingly cedes any loss of its control. The proponents of the big state are abusers at heart. How did we get devolution in the UK? It was eventually part of the Good Friday Agreement, but promised to us all in 1979 if we voted to stay part of the UK, but then got forgotten about Yeah? So Scotland and Wales signed the good friday agreement? No, it was offered to Ireland to keep the peace, and it was offered to Wales and Scotland to not look like they were rewarding Ireland for blowing people up (on both sides), and because they were supposed to give it to us nearly 20 years previously but "forgot" Right right, I get it. So the Good Friday Agreement happened before the Scottish and Wales devolution referendums then? The Good Friday Agreement was a bit more complicated than just devolution but included devolution. I don't believe Wales and Scotland would have been offered devolution it wasn't past of the deal for the Irish, even though it had already been promised to us nearly 20 years previously Oh, so the devolution for Scotland and Wales wasn’t as a result of the GFA? Is that because you just checked which came first and realised that we haven’t invented time travel just yet? Yes of course it was! Why else do you think they suddenly remembered they promised it to us nearly 20 years previously?! Who is this "us" you keep on referring to? I think you'll find that devolution referendums were promised in the Labour manifesto 1997. You didn't answer the question. Why did the UK government suddenly remember about promising Wales and Scotland devolution in 1997 after nearly 20 years of kicking it in the long grass? I've got other things to do so I'll answer it for you. It was so when they offered it to Ireland as part of the Good Friday Agreement the Irish wouldn't think they were going to renege on their promise to them too" Well it wasn't the same UK government for the full 20 year, so it was Tony Blair's labour party that put devolution into their manifesto and won the election. I doubt that they knew much at the time about the secret negotiations started by John Major for NI, so your assertion doesn't hold much water. | |||
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"Come on CLCC try answering questions So you dont think the USA is independent then ? Do you not think its great to see those fire fighters stood infront of innocent people so they wouldnt be hurt as the Spanish police beat the fuck out of them ? If the elections that the Spanish government want to take place happen and say the people elect a pro indy majority would you respect that ? Do you think Rajoy should respect that since its him that wants these elections ?"" Firefighters - no it's not a good thing they are standing against the police. It will just escalate the level if violence much quicker. It could seriously lead to civil conflict. And as for innocent people, no they aren't. They are separatists looking to break the stability of a nation state. Of course the police will try and disburse them. If they refuse then the police will quite rightly force them off the streets. Election - If the elected government chooses to offer an election, then yes they will have to stand by the result. American independence - Yes it is after it won a brutal war. Not something to aspire by any rational person. Yet another reason why selfish nationalism needs to be relegated to history and progressive, inclusive globalism needs to happen! | |||
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" You didn't answer the question. Why did the UK government suddenly remember about promising Wales and Scotland devolution in 1997 after nearly 20 years of kicking it in the long grass? I've got other things to do so I'll answer it for you. It was so when they offered it to Ireland as part of the Good Friday Agreement the Irish wouldn't think they were going to renege on their promise to them too" It hasn't suddenly remember anything. Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland all have devolved assemblies already. What more were you expecting? | |||
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"Come on CLCC try answering questions So you dont think the USA is independent then ? Do you not think its great to see those fire fighters stood infront of innocent people so they wouldnt be hurt as the Spanish police beat the fuck out of them ? If the elections that the Spanish government want to take place happen and say the people elect a pro indy majority would you respect that ? Do you think Rajoy should respect that since its him that wants these elections ?" Firefighters - no it's not a good thing they are standing against the police. It will just escalate the level if violence much quicker. It could seriously lead to civil conflict. And as for innocent people, no they aren't. They are separatists looking to break the stability of a nation state. Of course the police will try and disburse them. If they refuse then the police will quite rightly force them off the streets. Election - If the elected government chooses to offer an election, then yes they will have to stand by the result. American independence - Yes it is after it won a brutal war. Not something to aspire by any rational person. Yet another reason why selfish nationalism needs to be relegated to history and progressive, inclusive globalism needs to happen!" Thank you for actually answering what CLCC couldnt So you think those firefighters should have just stood aside and let the Spanish police the fuck out of innocent people ? None of them were showing any threat to anyone. Last time i justed its not a crimes to stand out in a public street. Good to see you say if the election goes ahead and a pro indy majority is voted by the Catalan people it should stand and not be overturned because you dont like the outcome. Good to see someone thinks the A declaration of independence does equal independence and says the USA is independent yes sadly there was a war but the question i was asking is the USA independent because they used UDI Ah right so lets just bend over and take what is coming to us even though we dont vote for scumbags and dictators ? Sorry no thanks | |||
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"Come on CLCC try answering questions So you dont think the USA is independent then ? Do you not think its great to see those fire fighters stood infront of innocent people so they wouldnt be hurt as the Spanish police beat the fuck out of them ? If the elections that the Spanish government want to take place happen and say the people elect a pro indy majority would you respect that ? Do you think Rajoy should respect that since its him that wants these elections ?" Firefighters - no it's not a good thing they are standing against the police. It will just escalate the level if violence much quicker. It could seriously lead to civil conflict. And as for innocent people, no they aren't. They are separatists looking to break the stability of a nation state. Of course the police will try and disburse them. If they refuse then the police will quite rightly force them off the streets. Election - If the elected government chooses to offer an election, then yes they will have to stand by the result. American independence - Yes it is after it won a brutal war. Not something to aspire by any rational person. Yet another reason why selfish nationalism needs to be relegated to history and progressive, inclusive globalism needs to happen! Thank you for actually answering what CLCC couldnt So you think those firefighters should have just stood aside and let the Spanish police the fuck out of innocent people ? None of them were showing any threat to anyone. Last time i justed its not a crimes to stand out in a public street. Good to see you say if the election goes ahead and a pro indy majority is voted by the Catalan people it should stand and not be overturned because you dont like the outcome. Good to see someone thinks the A declaration of independence does equal independence and says the USA is independent yes sadly there was a war but the question i was asking is the USA independent because they used UDI Ah right so lets just bend over and take what is coming to us even though we dont vote for scumbags and dictators ? Sorry no thanks " It was illegal...its like the region of Scotland doing the same thing without the say so of the UK parliament...it was illegal....same as the Basque's....and we all know what they did dont we....i can understand for the life of me why anyone thinks otherwise...anarchy is a dangerous slippery slope to take...and KINKY tbh im glad SCOTLAND voted to stay part of the UK | |||
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"Come on CLCC try answering questions So you dont think the USA is independent then ? Do you not think its great to see those fire fighters stood infront of innocent people so they wouldnt be hurt as the Spanish police beat the fuck out of them ? If the elections that the Spanish government want to take place happen and say the people elect a pro indy majority would you respect that ? Do you think Rajoy should respect that since its him that wants these elections ?" Firefighters - no it's not a good thing they are standing against the police. It will just escalate the level if violence much quicker. It could seriously lead to civil conflict. And as for innocent people, no they aren't. They are separatists looking to break the stability of a nation state. Of course the police will try and disburse them. If they refuse then the police will quite rightly force them off the streets. Election - If the elected government chooses to offer an election, then yes they will have to stand by the result. American independence - Yes it is after it won a brutal war. Not something to aspire by any rational person. Yet another reason why selfish nationalism needs to be relegated to history and progressive, inclusive globalism needs to happen! Thank you for actually answering what CLCC couldnt So you think those firefighters should have just stood aside and let the Spanish police the fuck out of innocent people ? None of them were showing any threat to anyone. Last time i justed its not a crimes to stand out in a public street. Good to see you say if the election goes ahead and a pro indy majority is voted by the Catalan people it should stand and not be overturned because you dont like the outcome. Good to see someone thinks the A declaration of independence does equal independence and says the USA is independent yes sadly there was a war but the question i was asking is the USA independent because they used UDI Ah right so lets just bend over and take what is coming to us even though we dont vote for scumbags and dictators ? Sorry no thanks " As I stated above the protesters aren't the innocent people. They're separatists. Yes America did use UDI but only after they were militarily dominant. Catalonia is nowhere near that stage yet. As regards 'not voting for scumbags and dictators', what are you talking about? One world globalism has an elected house, an executive branch and bureaucracy. | |||
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"Come on CLCC try answering questions So you dont think the USA is independent then ? Do you not think its great to see those fire fighters stood infront of innocent people so they wouldnt be hurt as the Spanish police beat the fuck out of them ? If the elections that the Spanish government want to take place happen and say the people elect a pro indy majority would you respect that ? Do you think Rajoy should respect that since its him that wants these elections ?" Firefighters - no it's not a good thing they are standing against the police. It will just escalate the level if violence much quicker. It could seriously lead to civil conflict. And as for innocent people, no they aren't. They are separatists looking to break the stability of a nation state. Of course the police will try and disburse them. If they refuse then the police will quite rightly force them off the streets. Election - If the elected government chooses to offer an election, then yes they will have to stand by the result. American independence - Yes it is after it won a brutal war. Not something to aspire by any rational person. Yet another reason why selfish nationalism needs to be relegated to history and progressive, inclusive globalism needs to happen! Thank you for actually answering what CLCC couldnt So you think those firefighters should have just stood aside and let the Spanish police the fuck out of innocent people ? None of them were showing any threat to anyone. Last time i justed its not a crimes to stand out in a public street. Good to see you say if the election goes ahead and a pro indy majority is voted by the Catalan people it should stand and not be overturned because you dont like the outcome. Good to see someone thinks the A declaration of independence does equal independence and says the USA is independent yes sadly there was a war but the question i was asking is the USA independent because they used UDI Ah right so lets just bend over and take what is coming to us even though we dont vote for scumbags and dictators ? Sorry no thanks It was illegal...its like the region of Scotland doing the same thing without the say so of the UK parliament...it was illegal....same as the Basque's....and we all know what they did dont we....i can understand for the life of me why anyone thinks otherwise...anarchy is a dangerous slippery slope to take...and KINKY tbh im glad SCOTLAND voted to stay part of the UK "You keep saying region as if you think it will wind me up nah chance at least i dont think so low to call the country i live in a wee region. So are people not allowed to decide their own futures now ? | |||
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