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Should religion and politics be mixed?
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Religion can influence law, however, they should be separate entities as not everyone is religios, but it can work if used correctly, whats your view? |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
I believe the UK and Iran are the only countries that reserve places in their legislature for religious mullahs.
How can we call ourselves a democracy?
The same-sex marriage debate encapsulated this question for me.
Religions thought their concept of marriage was perfect and seemed unable to understand the difference between state recognition of a couple's relationship and a church's recognition of a couple's relationship.
The sooner the church is disestablished and the last traces of theocracy are eroded from democracy, the better. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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No, religion is personal to the individual, as such it should be part of a person's personal exploration.
Religion should be removed from all aspects of the state, no church schools, no Jewsish schools, no Islamic schools.
No special protections for any faith other than the freedom and protection granted to the individual to peacefully practice such faith. |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"I believe the UK and Iran are the only countries that reserve places in their legislature for religious mullahs.
How can we call ourselves a democracy?
The same-sex marriage debate encapsulated this question for me.
Religions thought their concept of marriage was perfect and seemed unable to understand the difference between state recognition of a couple's relationship and a church's recognition of a couple's relationship.
The sooner the church is disestablished and the last traces of theocracy are eroded from democracy, the better."
If you did that it would not be democracy it would be dictatorship,you do not believe in democracy that is for sure |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Newbury |
Religious organisations are political organisations by their very existence.
Religious would be fine if believers just worshipped quietly in their own homes, but they don't.
It is unsurprising, therefore that they try to ensconce themselves in the political structure of states.
Do I think they should be able to?
No.
Do I think any of the Abrahamic religious organisations have a morality that stands up to any scrutiny?
Also no. |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Newbury |
"I believe the UK and Iran are the only countries that reserve places in their legislature for religious mullahs.
How can we call ourselves a democracy?
The same-sex marriage debate encapsulated this question for me.
Religions thought their concept of marriage was perfect and seemed unable to understand the difference between state recognition of a couple's relationship and a church's recognition of a couple's relationship.
The sooner the church is disestablished and the last traces of theocracy are eroded from democracy, the better.If you did that it would not be democracy it would be dictatorship,you do not believe in democracy that is for sure"
How are churches in any way democratic? |
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The problem is that the two have, historically, been inseparable. The king was the head of state, essentially appointed by god. Our earliest statutory laws were essentially there to plug the gaps that the bible didn’t cover in a gradually modernising society.
The thing is, in matters of state, we’re an incredibly slow moving, backwards looking society. Our courts, royal houses and parliamentary buildings are chock full of ridiculous costumes and wigs because, for no logical reason, tradition holds sway over progress.
It is happening, and there will be a time when the two are entirely separate, but I doubt we’ll see it in our lifetimes. |
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Regardless of having seats in a legislature reserved for representatives of an 'established religion' or not, religion and politics are so closely entwined any attempt to disentangle them is doomed to failure. This is as true in the UK as it is in the USA or any other country in the world. Religion permeates and drives every society and every strata of society in the world. As our levels of education increase this grip may lesson on individuals conscious thoughts but I do not think its subconscious grip relaxes at all. In fact I would be so bold as to say much if not all the political ill-will between nations and racial tension we see round the world is (subconsciously) driven by religious differences. |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"What special skills do religious mullahs possess that justify their place in the country's governance?
A moral consciousness of the nation. "
They also don't have to worry about party loyalty, and can speak truth to the government of the day. |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
This country has been surprisingly good at incorporating a range of views in the Lords. To some extent it isn't "morality" that they are there to represent. They are there to represent the views of the people who subscribe to their religion in the same way that the scientists, soldiers and trade unionists represent their constituencies, but more importantly, bring their experience of the world. |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"I believe the UK and Iran are the only countries that reserve places in their legislature for religious mullahs.
How can we call ourselves a democracy?
The same-sex marriage debate encapsulated this question for me.
Religions thought their concept of marriage was perfect and seemed unable to understand the difference between state recognition of a couple's relationship and a church's recognition of a couple's relationship.
The sooner the church is disestablished and the last traces of theocracy are eroded from democracy, the better.If you did that it would not be democracy it would be dictatorship,you do not believe in democracy that is for sure
How are churches in any way democratic?"
They are not but that is not relevant to the point being made |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Coming from a country that has struggled with the amalgamation of relegion and politics over the past half century I can tell you for certain they should be kept separate
It’s fine to take inspiration from relegion or such and implement it into a manifesto or a party’s ideals but if voters base their political view on relegion ( which is the case in Northern Ireland) it creates a whole mess , the DUP will never go out of power in the north as there is simply too many Protestants in the country who fear a SF win and the unification of Ireland
Therefore we will always be under the control of the wicked DUP and their backwards views |
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"What special skills do religious mullahs possess that justify their place in the country's governance?
A moral consciousness of the nation.
They also don't have to worry about party loyalty, and can speak truth to the government of the day. "
Often their truth has been less than objective and actually biassed given their views on certain groups and types of relationships..
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"I dont believe in religon...so i dont want to be governed by it."
That may be so, but do you realise that both you and our whole society has been shaped by Christianity and Protestantism in particular (referring to the UK)? If you are of Anglo-Saxon extraction the chances are Protestantism and almost certainly Christianity even shapes the way you think, if you are Slavic in origin then it is Orthodox Christianity that more than likely shapes you and if you are Mediterranean or Irish in origin then Catholicism is the most likely source of your moral compass. You can go round the world and find similar influences due to the local dominant religions and it takes a lot more than a couple of generations to break these deeply ingrained traits.
I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying we all need to recognise and understand how deeply entrenched religion is in every one of us to the point of even controlling our thinking regardless of what part of the world we hail from before we can truly break free of it. Just look at the Soviet Union, it had 70 years of state enforced repression of religion and within a few short years of the bans been lifted the Orthodox Church had reestablished itself and its influence as if there had been no break in its dominance. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Religious bodies have a say in law but law has no say in religious bodies. That's as far as the separation of state and religion goes.
I can see historically that that would have been a good idea, since the majority had no say in parliament, and religious bodies were supposed to have the people in mind when expressing an opinion to law. Now- no. That role has ceased to be required.
There's no British/UK constitution as such- maybe the UK should have one? |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"Religious bodies have a say in law but law has no say in religious bodies. That's as far as the separation of state and religion goes.
I can see historically that that would have been a good idea, since the majority had no say in parliament, and religious bodies were supposed to have the people in mind when expressing an opinion to law. Now- no. That role has ceased to be required.
There's no British/UK constitution as such- maybe the UK should have one?"
We do have a constitution, it's just uncodified |
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"We do have a constitution, it's just uncodified "
I would have to take issue with you there.
I know many believe we have a constitution and we even have lawyers who claim to specialise in UK constitutional law but they do not.
My reasoning is as follows:
A constitution is a set of primary laws set out in a single document and given special status. To the best of my knowledge there is not a single Sovereign State that has a constitution where that constitution can be altered by a simple majority vote by the primary chamber of its parliament. There is no UK law that cannot be altered or repealed by a simple majority vote in the commons. Therefore I submit that the UK doesn't have a constitution and any who claim it has are either misinformed or misleading those to whom they are making the claim. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I dont believe in religon...so i dont want to be governed by it.
That may be so, but do you realise that both you and our whole society has been shaped by Christianity and Protestantism in particular (referring to the UK)? If you are of Anglo-Saxon extraction the chances are Protestantism and almost certainly Christianity even shapes the way you think, if you are Slavic in origin then it is Orthodox Christianity that more than likely shapes you and if you are Mediterranean or Irish in origin then Catholicism is the most likely source of your moral compass. You can go round the world and find similar influences due to the local dominant religions and it takes a lot more than a couple of generations to break these deeply ingrained traits.
I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying we all need to recognise and understand how deeply entrenched religion is in every one of us to the point of even controlling our thinking regardless of what part of the world we hail from before we can truly break free of it. Just look at the Soviet Union, it had 70 years of state enforced repression of religion and within a few short years of the bans been lifted the Orthodox Church had reestablished itself and its influence as if there had been no break in its dominance."
Obviously relegion has been ingrained into society , it was the biggest Center of socialisation for community’s for 100’s of years
However there needs to be a clear line between politics and relegion , I personally don’t see anything wrong with drawing inspiration from relegion in politics but to intertwine the two is ludicrous |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"What special skills do religious mullahs possess that justify their place in the country's governance?
A moral consciousness of the nation. "
Elected by who?
And why, of all the religious cults that exist, is only one entitled to seats?
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"Obviously relegion has been ingrained into society , it was the biggest Center of socialisation for community’s for 100’s of years
However there needs to be a clear line between politics and relegion , I personally don’t see anything wrong with drawing inspiration from relegion in politics but to intertwine the two is ludicrous "
I follow what you say, but I do not think it is possible to separate the two because the politics of a society is in essence a reflection of the religion of that society. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Obviously relegion has been ingrained into society , it was the biggest Center of socialisation for community’s for 100’s of years
However there needs to be a clear line between politics and relegion , I personally don’t see anything wrong with drawing inspiration from relegion in politics but to intertwine the two is ludicrous
I follow what you say, but I do not think it is possible to separate the two because the politics of a society is in essence a reflection of the religion of that society. "
Not separating the two is what causes conflicts , just look at Northern Ireland
Sadly relegion will always be associated with politics in Northern Ireland because it has been installed into young people through their families and schools there is no doubt about that
You must also remember that the world is becoming increasingly more secular with relegion disappearing from our society every day , I’m not saying relegion is going to suddenly vanish as there will always be religious people but it has started to loosen its grip around society and I believe it must do so for society to further itself
Ps this is coming from someone who is religious |
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"Not separating the two is what causes conflicts , just look at Northern Ireland
Sadly relegion will always be associated with politics in Northern Ireland because it has been installed into young people through their families and schools there is no doubt about that
You must also remember that the world is becoming increasingly more secular with relegion disappearing from our society every day , I’m not saying relegion is going to suddenly vanish as there will always be religious people but it has started to loosen its grip around society and I believe it must do so for society to further itself
Ps this is coming from someone who is religious "
I agree and fully understand what you say about NI (and Ireland in general). To be honest I had a 'good catholic education' supplied by a very expensive boarding school outside Cashel which was followed by a stint in HM Armed forces.
However your belief that the world is becoming more secular is misplaced, I would say Christianity in the British Isles is on the wane, and that may also be so in much of Northern Europe. But to say religion is being replaced with secularity worldwide is a stretch to put it mildly, in fact I would go so far as to say Islam is expanding at a faster rate than Christianity shrinking in Northern Europe and the world in general. |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"What special skills do religious mullahs possess that justify their place in the country's governance?
A moral consciousness of the nation.
Elected by who?
And why, of all the religious cults that exist, is only one entitled to seats?
"
The house if lords isn't elected, and it has religious leaders from a number of religions. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Not separating the two is what causes conflicts , just look at Northern Ireland
Sadly relegion will always be associated with politics in Northern Ireland because it has been installed into young people through their families and schools there is no doubt about that
You must also remember that the world is becoming increasingly more secular with relegion disappearing from our society every day , I’m not saying relegion is going to suddenly vanish as there will always be religious people but it has started to loosen its grip around society and I believe it must do so for society to further itself
Ps this is coming from someone who is religious
I agree and fully understand what you say about NI (and Ireland in general). To be honest I had a 'good catholic education' supplied by a very expensive boarding school outside Cashel which was followed by a stint in HM Armed forces.
However your belief that the world is becoming more secular is misplaced, I would say Christianity in the British Isles is on the wane, and that may also be so in much of Northern Europe. But to say religion is being replaced with secularity worldwide is a stretch to put it mildly, in fact I would go so far as to say Islam is expanding at a faster rate than Christianity shrinking in Northern Europe and the world in general. "
I agree with you definitely in the rise in popularity in relegion a such as Islam in the east but in western society espically areas such as USA and countries that used to be heavily influenced by relegion ( Eg Ireland )I feel it’s starting to fade , relegion is seen more know as a life choice rather than a life certainty
In both parts of Ireland there is serious debate on laws such as abortion rights and gay marriage ( only in the north ) and this is more what I meant by society becoming more secular |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Not separating the two is what causes conflicts , just look at Northern Ireland
Sadly relegion will always be associated with politics in Northern Ireland because it has been installed into young people through their families and schools there is no doubt about that
You must also remember that the world is becoming increasingly more secular with relegion disappearing from our society every day , I’m not saying relegion is going to suddenly vanish as there will always be religious people but it has started to loosen its grip around society and I believe it must do so for society to further itself
Ps this is coming from someone who is religious
I agree and fully understand what you say about NI (and Ireland in general). To be honest I had a 'good catholic education' supplied by a very expensive boarding school outside Cashel which was followed by a stint in HM Armed forces.
However your belief that the world is becoming more secular is misplaced, I would say Christianity in the British Isles is on the wane, and that may also be so in much of Northern Europe. But to say religion is being replaced with secularity worldwide is a stretch to put it mildly, in fact I would go so far as to say Islam is expanding at a faster rate than Christianity shrinking in Northern Europe and the world in general.
I agree with you definitely in the rise in popularity in relegion a such as Islam in the east but in western society espically areas such as USA and countries that used to be heavily influenced by relegion ( Eg Ireland )I feel it’s starting to fade , relegion is seen more know as a life choice rather than a life certainty
In both parts of Ireland there is serious debate on laws such as abortion rights and gay marriage ( only in the north ) and this is more what I meant by society becoming more secular "
There is still a high level of religion in USA |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Not separating the two is what causes conflicts , just look at Northern Ireland
Sadly relegion will always be associated with politics in Northern Ireland because it has been installed into young people through their families and schools there is no doubt about that
You must also remember that the world is becoming increasingly more secular with relegion disappearing from our society every day , I’m not saying relegion is going to suddenly vanish as there will always be religious people but it has started to loosen its grip around society and I believe it must do so for society to further itself
Ps this is coming from someone who is religious
I agree and fully understand what you say about NI (and Ireland in general). To be honest I had a 'good catholic education' supplied by a very expensive boarding school outside Cashel which was followed by a stint in HM Armed forces.
However your belief that the world is becoming more secular is misplaced, I would say Christianity in the British Isles is on the wane, and that may also be so in much of Northern Europe. But to say religion is being replaced with secularity worldwide is a stretch to put it mildly, in fact I would go so far as to say Islam is expanding at a faster rate than Christianity shrinking in Northern Europe and the world in general.
I agree with you definitely in the rise in popularity in relegion a such as Islam in the east but in western society espically areas such as USA and countries that used to be heavily influenced by relegion ( Eg Ireland )I feel it’s starting to fade , relegion is seen more know as a life choice rather than a life certainty
In both parts of Ireland there is serious debate on laws such as abortion rights and gay marriage ( only in the north ) and this is more what I meant by society becoming more secular
There is still a high level of religion in USA"
Yes there’s a high level of relegion in every country but rather than having KKK members who only liked White Anglo Saxon Protestants ( WASPS) running rampant there’s a lot more civilised people who care a great deal less about relegion and have became more inclusive
The vast migration rates from all countries around the world to the US has forced the country to adapt its laws etc to become more tolerant and befitting if everyone thus making it more secular
Even republicans have began to tone down their bible bashing rants although you still get the odd nut who lives and breathes by the bibles every word |
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By *LCCCouple
over a year ago
Cambridge |
"Not separating the two is what causes conflicts , just look at Northern Ireland
Sadly relegion will always be associated with politics in Northern Ireland because it has been installed into young people through their families and schools there is no doubt about that
You must also remember that the world is becoming increasingly more secular with relegion disappearing from our society every day , I’m not saying relegion is going to suddenly vanish as there will always be religious people but it has started to loosen its grip around society and I believe it must do so for society to further itself
Ps this is coming from someone who is religious
I agree and fully understand what you say about NI (and Ireland in general). To be honest I had a 'good catholic education' supplied by a very expensive boarding school outside Cashel which was followed by a stint in HM Armed forces.
However your belief that the world is becoming more secular is misplaced, I would say Christianity in the British Isles is on the wane, and that may also be so in much of Northern Europe. But to say religion is being replaced with secularity worldwide is a stretch to put it mildly, in fact I would go so far as to say Islam is expanding at a faster rate than Christianity shrinking in Northern Europe and the world in general.
I agree with you definitely in the rise in popularity in relegion a such as Islam in the east but in western society espically areas such as USA and countries that used to be heavily influenced by relegion ( Eg Ireland )I feel it’s starting to fade , relegion is seen more know as a life choice rather than a life certainty
In both parts of Ireland there is serious debate on laws such as abortion rights and gay marriage ( only in the north ) and this is more what I meant by society becoming more secular
There is still a high level of religion in USA"
And it has a much greater impact on politics, despite the supposed separation of church and state, than the UK |
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I have to say I think fundamentalist Christianity is on the rise in the USA and unless the country has changed out of all recognition outside the cities of the North East and California racism and religious bigotry is rampant across the South and Mid West bible belt all the way up to Washington State and the more rural the population the greater and more open the discrimination. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I have to say I think fundamentalist Christianity is on the rise in the USA and unless the country has changed out of all recognition outside the cities of the North East and California racism and religious bigotry is rampant across the South and Mid West bible belt all the way up to Washington State and the more rural the population the greater and more open the discrimination."
What are you basing all this off ? These seem like pretty broad assumptions
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"What are you basing all this off ? These seem like pretty broad assumptions
"
My brother used to live in Chicago, his ex and my niece is from a real backwoods family in Washington State. Prior to my life being turned upside down I was a keen climber and rambling, I have traveled extensively in the lower 49 and Alaska climbing and rambling, on one trip I was accompanied by a climber I used to know of Ethiopian decent and was shocked by the open hostility we encountered nearly everywhere we went. So although my views may be tainted by that experience I think they are probably a lot closer to the mark than those of white Brits traveling on their own or with other white Brits who are seen as something a little 'special' and are welcomed virtually everywhere as soon as the accent is heard.
Sorry if this upsets those from the states who read this forum, but I am just relating my experience. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"What are you basing all this off ? These seem like pretty broad assumptions
My brother used to live in Chicago, his ex and my niece is from a real backwoods family in Washington State. Prior to my life being turned upside down I was a keen climber and rambling, I have traveled extensively in the lower 49 and Alaska climbing and rambling, on one trip I was accompanied by a climber I used to know of Ethiopian decent and was shocked by the open hostility we encountered nearly everywhere we went. So although my views may be tainted by that experience I think they are probably a lot closer to the mark than those of white Brits traveling on their own or with other white Brits who are seen as something a little 'special' and are welcomed virtually everywhere as soon as the accent is heard.
Sorry if this upsets those from the states who read this forum, but I am just relating my experience."
ah i see, my experience when i went to the states i do have to say was a stark contrast. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"What are you basing all this off ? These seem like pretty broad assumptions
My brother used to live in Chicago, his ex and my niece is from a real backwoods family in Washington State. Prior to my life being turned upside down I was a keen climber and rambling, I have traveled extensively in the lower 49 and Alaska climbing and rambling, on one trip I was accompanied by a climber I used to know of Ethiopian decent and was shocked by the open hostility we encountered nearly everywhere we went. So although my views may be tainted by that experience I think they are probably a lot closer to the mark than those of white Brits traveling on their own or with other white Brits who are seen as something a little 'special' and are welcomed virtually everywhere as soon as the accent is heard.
Sorry if this upsets those from the states who read this forum, but I am just relating my experience."
Interesting;
may I ask if you have done any of the Appalachian Trail?
.
I am considering this route, I normally stick to the West USA, except for sky-diving (Deland)
but the Appalachian Trail does interest me. |
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"Interesting;
may I ask if you have done any of the Appalachian Trail?
.
I am considering this route, I normally stick to the West USA, except for sky-diving (Deland)
but the Appalachian Trail does interest me."
Been climbing on Bear Mountain NY state and also done a few of routes in Virginia. The walking is really quite easy, but like most of the official trail routes in the states they are highly regulated and what is now known as wild camping is not allowed. If you can live with that and like forest walking then you will have a ball. To be honest I rather more baron vistas. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"What special skills do religious mullahs possess that justify their place in the country's governance?
A moral consciousness of the nation.
Elected by who?
And why, of all the religious cults that exist, is only one entitled to seats?
The house if lords isn't elected, and it has religious leaders from a number of religions."
Can you name them?
I know of only one.
|
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"Obviously relegion has been ingrained into society , it was the biggest Center of socialisation for community’s for 100’s of years
However there needs to be a clear line between politics and relegion , I personally don’t see anything wrong with drawing inspiration from relegion in politics but to intertwine the two is ludicrous
I follow what you say, but I do not think it is possible to separate the two because the politics of a society is in essence a reflection of the religion of that society. "
 a very valid point |
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"I dont believe in religon...so i dont want to be governed by it.
That may be so, but do you realise that both you and our whole society has been shaped by Christianity and Protestantism in particular (referring to the UK)? If you are of Anglo-Saxon extraction the chances are Protestantism and almost certainly Christianity even shapes the way you think, if you are Slavic in origin then it is Orthodox Christianity that more than likely shapes you and if you are Mediterranean or Irish in origin then Catholicism is the most likely source of your moral compass. You can go round the world and find similar influences due to the local dominant religions and it takes a lot more than a couple of generations to break these deeply ingrained traits.
I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying we all need to recognise and understand how deeply entrenched religion is in every one of us to the point of even controlling our thinking regardless of what part of the world we hail from before we can truly break free of it. Just look at the Soviet Union, it had 70 years of state enforced repression of religion and within a few short years of the bans been lifted the Orthodox Church had reestablished itself and its influence as if there had been no break in its dominance."
I dont believe in God so i dont want to be governed by it |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I am not at all religious but I do think religion itself can be a force for good. Humans have always invented ways to explain things and have codes of conduct for interaction with others and that's my view on it. It can give followers a sense of purpose and peace and a moral code. What that code is the make or break, but in general, something teaching respect for others, their property and lifestyle can only be good. It's the nature of humans that it doesn't end there. ...
Does it have a place in the government of a country? I hope so. Does it govern us? I hope not. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"What special skills do religious mullahs possess that justify their place in the country's governance?
A moral consciousness of the nation. "
Are you syggesting tbat the none religious cannot be moral? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I have to say I think fundamentalist Christianity is on the rise in the USA and unless the country has changed out of all recognition outside the cities of the North East and California racism and religious bigotry is rampant across the South and Mid West bible belt all the way up to Washington State and the more rural the population the greater and more open the discrimination."
.
The biggest growing denomination is atheism.
Most people see through religion given the opportunity and an education. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"What special skills do religious mullahs possess that justify their place in the country's governance?
A moral consciousness of the nation. "
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That's right, they can speak for EVERYBODY.
Personally I like freedom, I like the freedom to say what I like when I like without fear or favour.
Of course thanks to the direction the radical left is trying to take the country I doubt that will be allowed in this country much longer.
The number 1 reason why I can't vote left leaning politicians and left leaning parties.
The radical right worries we but the radical left keeps me awake at night! |
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I think it's appropriate to keep law and religion generally as separate from each other. Historically state governance and religion were often mixed/almost the same, with royalty being God's representative on earth and also the ruler.
As religion is only based upon supposition and viewpoint, laws are generally better if they are based upon evidence and matter that all can understand and accept. Most citizens of the UK don't accept a religion, so forming laws for all upon it is silly. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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If you want to see how religion and politics mix, catch a ferry to little old Northern Ireland and see how having a party dominated by christian fundamentalists as largest party in government works.. Gay rights and womens reproductive rights from not even the last centuary, but the one before.. |
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