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Fair play Corbyn
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"I think Corbyn has handled this whole thing appallingly, and so do very senior members of his own party." I think JC was on a hiding to nothing from the start. I wish he would just come out and tell it like it is. Israel is a disgrace to the world. | |||
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"Don't u all think Jeremy is right to stick to his guns sgain st the zionist apartheid who keep using their holocaust for sympathy and yet treat Palestinians even worse than the nazis treated them...." 
"Worse than the Nazis treated them"??!
A touch hyperbolic, wouldn't you say?
Now I'm by no means a Zionist or supporter of Israel, but these kinds of statements just undermine any further arguments you put forward.
I can't be arsed to look up the figures, but from previous discussions I've had with people if memory serves me correctly then the total number of Palestinians killed since the conflict vegan is in the tens of thousands - it's under 100,000 I think, but let's round it up. I think when the conflict began the Palestinian population was around 1M and it's now around 4 or 5. Even if we took the worst case scenario and said it was 100,000 out of 1M (which is hugely flawed in so many ways, but is the worst it could possibly be) that's 10% of the population. And of course in reality it's much lower than that.
The Nazis killed 6M Jews, and I think there were about 10M around at the time, so they exterminated 60% of the population.
It's not really comparable, is it? | |||
"Don't u all think Jeremy is right to stick to his guns sgain st the zionist apartheid who keep using their holocaust for sympathy and yet treat Palestinians even worse than the nazis treated them...." No I don't. On this Jeremy and the left are completely wrong. It's been bad enough having to put up with the right wing islamophobic racists who seem to think it's open season to say anything you want but now we've got the left wing anti-semite racists starting up to. It's OK to criticise Israel and it's even OK to say you believe that Israel is running an apartheid like system, if that's what you believe. But it's not OK to compare Israel to Nazi Germany because it's not and, let's face it, people only make that comparison because Israel is a Jewish state and they know that, for Jews, being compared to Nazi Germany is partially offensive. And that's why making the comparison is anti-semitic. If you can't see that for yourself then you are probably part of the problem. | |||
"I think Corbyn has handled this whole thing appallingly, and so do very senior members of his own party." For once we 100% agree. | |||
"It's OK to criticise Israel and it's even OK to say you believe that Israel is running an apartheid like system, if that's what you believe" Actually it is not and if the Maybot has her way it will soon be illegal. She has already said (in parliament) that anti Zionist speech is anti-Semitic and hate speech and totally unacceptable. Soon she will be introducing legislation to 'strengthen' the law (and weaken her opposition). | |||
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"if there is an internationally recognised definition of a word or phrase.... don't try to be smart and try to change it by saying "only we know better"..... just accept the internationally recognised definition and move on..... there..... solved it for them!!! "it's a reaction to the conflation of anti Zionism and anti Israel being the same as anti Jew! FFS! We now live in a world where according to some holocaust survivors and the children of holocaust survivors are anti-Semites because they do not support Israel! | |||
"if there is an internationally recognised definition of a word or phrase.... don't try to be smart and try to change it by saying "only we know better"..... just accept the internationally recognised definition and move on..... there..... solved it for them!!! "Fabio, don't ever go into politics... you are way too sensible lol. | |||
"if there is an internationally recognised definition of a word or phrase.... don't try to be smart and try to change it by saying "only we know better"..... just accept the internationally recognised definition and move on..... there..... solved it for them!!!
it's a reaction to the conflation of anti Zionism and anti Israel being the same as anti Jew!
FFS! We now live in a world where according to some holocaust survivors and the children of holocaust survivors are anti-Semites because they do not support Israel!"This- because Jeremy spoke at the same rally as a Holocaust survivor who compared Israel to the Nazis, he must be anti semetic (and apparently so must the guy who survived the Holocaust)? Jewish voice for Labour keep emphasising their support for JC and yet you hardly ever hear about it. People thought I was nuts when I said that New Labour were out to destroy the Labour movement.... | |||
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"Don't u all think Jeremy is right to stick to his guns sgain st the zionist apartheid who keep using their holocaust for sympathy and yet treat Palestinians even worse than the nazis treated them.... No I don't. On this Jeremy and the left are completely wrong. It's been bad enough having to put up with the right wing islamophobic racists who seem to think it's open season to say anything you want but now we've got the left wing anti-semite racists starting up to. It's OK to criticise Israel and it's even OK to say you believe that Israel is running an apartheid like system, if that's what you believe. But it's not OK to compare Israel to Nazi Germany because it's not and, let's face it, people only make that comparison because Israel is a Jewish state and they know that, for Jews, being compared to Nazi Germany is partially offensive. And that's why making the comparison is anti-semitic. If you can't see that for yourself then you are probably part of the problem." So I did hear an interesting view. Islamaphobobia - Criticism of Islam and those how states use it as law. Compared to Muslim phobia someone who is blaming people through generalisation because they follow Islam. Or you could say that critisicing the Catholic churches and the states on certain events and laws is different than generalising all people who follow that faith. Am I the only one who can see the difference? | |||
"Firstly I will nail my colours to the wall. I fully support the existence of the state of Israel. However I do think that Israel sometimes over reacts to some of the Hamas provocation. After saying that, if I lived in a country where the neighbours were lobbing rockets over the border I would want my military to do something about it. Oh and before anyone comes up with the usual excuse that it is Muslim/Arab land that the Israelis stole . It isn't. The region was Jewish and known as "Judea" (clue in the name) long before the fabled prophet was even a twinkle in his old mans eye." But before that, it was Canaan. If memory serves me correctly, the DNA evidence demonstrates that both modern-day Israelites and Palestinians can both trace their genetic roots back to the Canaanites, with whom the Philistines (later, the Palestinians) were socially intergrated with. It appears that the two lived cheek-by-jowl to all intents and purposes. Indeed, the first indications of a Jewish presence in the area were graves in hilltop areas showing an absence of burial rites, simple unadorned pottery and no pig bones. The whole "They were there first" notion doesn't really stand up. And even if it did...is it really an adequate justification to give them precedence over the land? Should we kick all Americans out and return the United States to the native tribes? Kick out all the Australians and return it to the Aborigines? | |||
"if there is an internationally recognised definition of a word or phrase.... don't try to be smart and try to change it by saying "only we know better"..... just accept the internationally recognised definition and move on..... there..... solved it for them!!! "For once I agree with you on something Fabio. Corbyn should just accept the internationally recognised definition of anti semitism. End of. Corbyn was very quick to discipline Margaret Hodge for speaking out when she called him a racist and an anti semite, and yet turned a blind eye for an absolute age to Ken Livingston and is now turning a blind eye to Labour national executive committee member Pete Willsman, who called Jew's "Trump fanatics" for raising concerns about the direction Labour is going in over anti semitism. | |||
"Don't u all think Jeremy is right to stick to his guns sgain st the zionist apartheid who keep using their holocaust for sympathy and yet treat Palestinians even worse than the nazis treated them.... No I don't. On this Jeremy and the left are completely wrong. It's been bad enough having to put up with the right wing islamophobic racists who seem to think it's open season to say anything you want but now we've got the left wing anti-semite racists starting up to. It's OK to criticise Israel and it's even OK to say you believe that Israel is running an apartheid like system, if that's what you believe. But it's not OK to compare Israel to Nazi Germany because it's not and, let's face it, people only make that comparison because Israel is a Jewish state and they know that, for Jews, being compared to Nazi Germany is partially offensive. And that's why making the comparison is anti-semitic. If you can't see that for yourself then you are probably part of the problem."  | |||
"if there is an internationally recognised definition of a word or phrase.... don't try to be smart and try to change it by saying "only we know better"..... just accept the internationally recognised definition and move on..... there..... solved it for them!!! "This.. | |||
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"Watch this! It will take 5 minutes of your life and it sums up this whole debate. https://youtu.be/qMGuYjt6CP8" Are you referring to the bit @1:28 when he describes when a German soldier shot dead his grandmother whilst she was lying ill in bed? No doubt he was following orders... | |||
"Are you referring to the bit @1:28 when he describes when a German soldier shot dead his grandmother whilst she was lying ill in bed? No doubt he was following orders..." Ah... Right... So that is what you took from the whole speech. | |||
"Watch this! It will take 5 minutes of your life and it sums up this whole debate. https://youtu.be/qMGuYjt6CP8" Very powerful | |||
"Very powerful" Made 9 years ago and all that has changed is the problem has become worse because of appeasement. | |||
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"The problem is that criticism of Israel is viewed as antisemitic by some in Israel. An article in the isrealnationnews.com described Ireland as picking on the jews when our Senate debated a bill on boycotting products from areas in Israel. " I always find it a bit weird how virulent Israeli criticism is of the BDS movement, seeing as their whole schtick about Intifada and Intifada II: the explosive sequel, is that Palestinians should find some non-violent form of protest. Then when they actually do, they cry about it..  | |||
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"So it seems that nobody is allowed to even criticise the Jews or Israel then ? Because to do so is seen as anti Semitic "Correct! Even if you're Jewish and survived the holocaust. | |||
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"We live in a strange world. If you are a member of the Labour party and you criticize Israel your anti Jew and should be purged (according to the Daily Mail, Express and all) even if you are a Jew. If you say that in the 30's the Nazis did not want to kill European Jews just force them to leave Europe then your a Jew hater and need to be forced out of politics. If your a Tory and raise money for neo-nazis by attending expensive dinners, not so much. of course if your name is Benjamin Netanyahu and you say the Nazis did not want to kill the Jews at first (2015) speech then there is no problem." Strange times. | |||
"So it seems that nobody is allowed to even criticise the Jews or Israel then ? Because to do so is seen as anti Semitic
Correct! Even if you're Jewish and survived the holocaust. "Nothing new here they've said the same of Noam Chomsky for decades.The self loathing Jew is a popular insult to those who say anything against Judaism and Israel . It happens in all cultures .Here you can be called unpatriotic if you don't get behind the state and brexit in the states un American .In the African American community an Uncle Tom .Its an attempt to silence dissent or oppposing views. | |||
"Firstly I will nail my colours to the wall. I fully support the existence of the state of Israel. However I do think that Israel sometimes over reacts to some of the Hamas provocation. After saying that, if I lived in a country where the neighbours were lobbing rockets over the border I would want my military to do something about it. Oh and before anyone comes up with the usual excuse that it is Muslim/Arab land that the Israelis stole . It isn't. The region was Jewish and known as "Judea" (clue in the name) long before the fabled prophet was even a twinkle in his old mans eye. But before that, it was Canaan. If memory serves me correctly, the DNA evidence demonstrates that both modern-day Israelites and Palestinians can both trace their genetic roots back to the Canaanites, with whom the Philistines (later, the Palestinians) were socially intergrated with. It appears that the two lived cheek-by-jowl to all intents and purposes. Indeed, the first indications of a Jewish presence in the area were graves in hilltop areas showing an absence of burial rites, simple unadorned pottery and no pig bones. The whole "They were there first" notion doesn't really stand up. And even if it did...is it really an adequate justification to give them precedence over the land? Should we kick all Americans out and return the United States to the native tribes? Kick out all the Australians and return it to the Aborigines?" Or even all the Angles, Saxons, Dukes and Norse out of Britain and give it back to the Celts? All the Scots out of Scotland (they came from Ireland originally). Maybe we should all just go back to the Great Rift Valley where it all started. | |||
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"Are you referring to the bit @1:28 when he describes when a German soldier shot dead his grandmother whilst she was lying ill in bed? No doubt he was following orders... Ah... Right... So that is what you took from the whole speech." I've seen the clip before. But this is the thing about any form of racism. It's not just what's being said but also who says it. As an example I can write the word nigger here without out any context and possibly get away with it without causing offence. However, as a white person, if I used the word with any context, even in a joke, it would almost definitely cause offence. But it's perfectly Ok for a black person to use the word in comedy or as a lyrics in a song. In the same way it's OK for a Jewish person to compare the Israeli Government to Nazi Germany (because he's clearly not doing it to offend them because they've Jewish) but it's not OK for me, Corbyn, Livingston or Peter .. (whatever his name is because no one knew him a few weeks ago). | |||
"Is this the same Jeremy who is the IRA sympathiser?, the one who on his many Belfast demonstration visits, shared stages with Adams and McGuinness?, he's a traitor!. " The one who was working for Mo Mowlam at the time and was instrumental in bringing about the peace process....? | |||
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"Whatever he had done would have resulted in major criticism that's disproportionately aired and negative by the UK media. He's a man of decent morals and principles - and many on the right are very worried about his and the party's power - hence pressure groups influence and mobilization. The reality of having a different definition would have made no one's life better than his own. They definitely need the freedom to criticize the Israeli states behavior without running foul of their own definition - maybe they should have temporarily swapped it, pending review. Rest assured that the right wing media and the BBC will continue their stance against him, as they have done since his start in power. " The same media that's after BoJo's head at the moment? | |||
"Whatever he had done would have resulted in major criticism that's disproportionately aired and negative by the UK media. He's a man of decent morals and principles - and many on the right are very worried about his and the party's power - hence pressure groups influence and mobilization. The reality of having a different definition would have made no one's life better than his own. They definitely need the freedom to criticize the Israeli states behavior without running foul of their own definition - maybe they should have temporarily swapped it, pending review. Rest assured that the right wing media and the BBC will continue their stance against him, as they have done since his start in power. The same media that's after BoJo's head at the moment?" But they aren't really, are they? I think the Indy ran an anti Boris article or two, and I suspect the Guardian will/has. The BBC hasn't been hyper crital, and that's about it. There's certainly no hysterical articles saying that Boris is a danger to the fabric of society. | |||
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"Bollox. Top news on bbc all day. " Which is great, because no one should support inequality of treatment of women in 2018 and being forced into submission to men, and having to be hidden away in a bin bag and a hood, as a sign of control and submission, should cause the left-wing BBC and Guardian to be apoplectic with rage. | |||
"Bollox. Top news on bbc all day. " Yes, I'm talking about the tone of the reporting compared to, say the antisemitism row in Labour. | |||
"Bollox. Top news on bbc all day. Yes, I'm talking about the tone of the reporting compared to, say the antisemitism row in Labour. " I think you look at the world through red tinted glasses. | |||
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"Apartheid, of the type practised in South Africa and the USA, may be a better comparison. Gaza in effect is now an open-air prison. " I would respectfully disagree. I know of no prison anywhere in the world where none of the inmates has been convicted of any crime and the guards openly kill the inmates whenever they feel like without repercussions. However I have read much about the Warsaw Ghetto and I do find the parallels there and the worlds refusal to condemn chillingly similar. | |||
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"Bollox. Top news on bbc all day. Yes, I'm talking about the tone of the reporting compared to, say the antisemitism row in Labour. I think you look at the world through red tinted glasses." Not really- but we do get "The Sun" and "The Express" at work.... | |||
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"The media has been against him since he took the job, so it's almost impossible to not be biased against him because of them. I think he's a very principled man and has rightly spoken against the Israeli government who have increasingly eroded some of their citizens rights as well as enforced campaigns, including murders of innocent adults and children, typically with them not getting the global punishments and condemnation that others, without their legacy, would have had. Their uncontrolled use of against others would drive concern about nuclear weapons armament if it was a different state but they have limited discourse on this. " | |||
"Is this the same Jeremy who is the IRA sympathiser?, the one who on his many Belfast demonstration visits, shared stages with Adams and McGuinness?, he's a traitor!. " talking out of your back passage, he openly held talks to bring about the peace process, margret thatcher also held talks but in secret, is the queen a traitor for meeting adams at the palace? | |||
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"Meeting a terrorist in secret does not say to the world "Hey, he seems a nice guy to do business with actually". It says I'm ashamed to have to talk to these murdering cunts. " No it does not! Politicians from the party of government meeting insurgent freedom fighters in secret negotiations to stop the insurgents from targeting the government while publicly denouncing those insurgents and implementing a shoot to kill policy is the epitome of corruption! But then the Tories have always been the party of corruption. | |||
"Meeting a terrorist in secret does not say to the world "Hey, he seems a nice guy to do business with actually". It says I'm ashamed to have to talk to these murdering cunts. No it does not! Politicians from the party of government meeting insurgent freedom fighters in secret negotiations to stop the insurgents from targeting the government while publicly denouncing those insurgents and implementing a shoot to kill policy is the epitome of corruption! But then the Tories have always been the party of corruption. " Yes, didn't you say they also invented cancer and orange flavoured Revels? #changetherecord | |||
" The worst regimes in history" Really? That does not even qualify as hyperbole. Now I am no fan of Arabs, I think they are all the same. All of them Jewish Arabs, Christian Arabs and Muslim Arabs. But to claim that any modern Arab state is the worst in history is stupid, you could not even successfully support such a position if you qualified it by saying modern history or 20th century, unless you are deliberately ignoring the Nazis, Khmer Rouge and of course all the US backed military juntas of South America and their disappeared. And that is without mentioning the conduct of the apartheid state of Israel. | |||
"Israel has still to set up death camps and introduce a 'final solution' of the 'Palestinian problem', but I for one totally see the similarities and hate them. " I thought I knew what kind of person you are but was wrong,your just a nasty nazi | |||
"Meeting a terrorist in secret does not say to the world "Hey, he seems a nice guy to do business with actually". It says I'm ashamed to have to talk to these murdering cunts. No it does not! Politicians from the party of government meeting insurgent freedom fighters in secret negotiations to stop the insurgents from targeting the government while publicly denouncing those insurgents and implementing a shoot to kill policy is the epitome of corruption! But then the Tories have always been the party of corruption. " All parties have corruption,bigoted idiot | |||
"I can not see what Corbyn gains from this.Hes not an anti Semite and has been on the right side of history most of of his life.Hes is criticism of Israel is fine .Choosing a bespoke definition of anti Semitism seems to have no value and no win for his party." | |||
"Don't u all think Jeremy is right to stick to his guns sgain st the zionist apartheid who keep using their holocaust for sympathy and yet treat Palestinians even worse than the nazis treated them...." Wow just wow. Israel is no where near the nazi level. I fully support Israel as a country and the war. Those who support Palestine ie Hamas/Fatah are in my opinion, a bunch idiots that need to go learn some facts. The UN has classified that Fatah and Hamas are terrorist organisations. Yet you support them? Would you support Isis then? Based on that. Before Israel attacks they send messages, alarms and leaflets to those in the area. Palestine forces civilians to sit the strike zones. Yes Israel is forcefully taking land. Every country has right to claim land by conquest. Just look back at our history, who are we to judge anouther country who conquers land. Borders are not set in stone, they do change. Israel has offered Palestine many peace treaties which settle land and will stop the bloodshed, yet Palestine refuses and attacks Israel, even if the offer is in their favour. I’d post a link but unsure if this permitted on the forums? | |||
"I thought I knew what kind of person you are but was wrong,your just a nasty nazi" Really? I am a nazi because I see the similarities between what the state of Israel is doing to the Palestinians and what the 3rd Rich did to German Jews in the 30's and that I can also see the similarities between the Warsaw Ghetto and the Gaza Strip and the casual way IDF personnel murder Palestinian women and children for getting to close to the fence and how SS did the same in the Ghettos. I think you need to stop blindly accepting that everything Israel does is fine because it claims to represent world Jewry. | |||
"Don't u all think Jeremy is right to stick to his guns sgain st the zionist apartheid who keep using their holocaust for sympathy and yet treat Palestinians even worse than the nazis treated them.... Wow just wow. Israel is no where near the nazi level. I fully support Israel as a country and the war. Those who support Palestine ie Hamas/Fatah are in my opinion, a bunch idiots that need to go learn some facts. The UN has classified that Fatah and Hamas are terrorist organisations. Yet you support them? Would you support Isis then? Based on that. Before Israel attacks they send messages, alarms and leaflets to those in the area. Palestine forces civilians to sit the strike zones. Yes Israel is forcefully taking land. Every country has right to claim land by conquest. Just look back at our history, who are we to judge anouther country who conquers land. Borders are not set in stone, they do change. Israel has offered Palestine many peace treaties which settle land and will stop the bloodshed, yet Palestine refuses and attacks Israel, even if the offer is in their favour. I’d post a link but unsure if this permitted on the forums?" So many things wrong with what you’ve said here, it’s hard to know what to pick up on. So you’d be comfortable if Israel started settling land in uk? As they have the right to take land by conquest, as you say? For the record, no country has the right to conquer another. Labelling anyone who supports Palestine’s right to exist and to have its borders respected as per the UNs conditions as a bunch of idiots who would also support Isis is just ridiculous. You should read up a little about why the UN isn’t taking any actions about this. I assume from your post that you are so deeply entrenched in your opinion that debate is irrelevant. So I’ll leave it there for my own sanity. | |||
"Don't u all think Jeremy is right to stick to his guns sgain st the zionist apartheid who keep using their holocaust for sympathy and yet treat Palestinians even worse than the nazis treated them....
"Worse than the Nazis treated them"??!
A touch hyperbolic, wouldn't you say?
Now I'm by no means a Zionist or supporter of Israel, but these kinds of statements just undermine any further arguments you put forward.
I can't be arsed to look up the figures, but from previous discussions I've had with people if memory serves me correctly then the total number of Palestinians killed since the conflict vegan is in the tens of thousands - it's under 100,000 I think, but let's round it up. I think when the conflict began the Palestinian population was around 1M and it's now around 4 or 5. Even if we took the worst case scenario and said it was 100,000 out of 1M (which is hugely flawed in so many ways, but is the worst it could possibly be) that's 10% of the population. And of course in reality it's much lower than that.
The Nazis killed 6M Jews, and I think there were about 10M around at the time, so they exterminated 60% of the population.
It's not really comparable, is it?"The German Natzis may have come up with the idea but almost every country was keen to partake in the Holocaust to varying degrees. And it didn't depend on which side they supported. Individuals were the force that defeated it, largely. Israel policy certainly doesn't embrace the 'turn the other cheek' policy and I see no end to it- how can there be? | |||
"I thought I knew what kind of person you are but was wrong,your just a nasty nazi Really? I am a nazi because I see the similarities between what the state of Israel is doing to the Palestinians and what the 3rd Rich did to German Jews in the 30's and that I can also see the similarities between the Warsaw Ghetto and the Gaza Strip and the casual way IDF personnel murder Palestinian women and children for getting to close to the fence and how SS did the same in the Ghettos. I think you need to stop blindly accepting that everything Israel does is fine because it claims to represent world Jewry. " I never said anything about my views on Isreal ,you twist everything and invent statements to suit your own agenda I disapprove of a lot of what Isreal does,I also disapprove of a lot of what the arabs do.It is possible to not be a fan of Isreal without hated the Jews but not in your twisted little perverted excuse for a brain | |||
"I never said anything about my views on Isreal ,you twist everything and invent statements to suit your own agenda I disapprove of a lot of what Isreal does,I also disapprove of a lot of what the arabs do.It is possible to not be a fan of Isreal without hated the Jews but not in your twisted little perverted excuse for a brain" Really? You called me a nazi because I said: "Israel has still to set up death camps and introduce a 'final solution' of the 'Palestinian problem', but I for one totally see the similarities and hate them. " Which everyone else will notice is a post about ISRAEL not the Jewish people. I then defend myself against you calling me a NAZI pointing out the exact similarities between the 3rd Rich's treatment of the Jewish people prior to the 'final solution' and the Israeli treatment of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and you effectively plagiarise my post that led you to call me a NAZI to justify you calling me a NAZI. I am sure there is a name for Trumpianesk people like you but it has slipped my mind, maybe you or some other forumite can remind me of what it is? | |||
"I never said anything about my views on Isreal ,you twist everything and invent statements to suit your own agenda I disapprove of a lot of what Isreal does,I also disapprove of a lot of what the arabs do.It is possible to not be a fan of Isreal without hated the Jews but not in your twisted little perverted excuse for a brain Really? You called me a nazi because I said: Israel has still to set up death camps and introduce a 'final solution' of the 'Palestinian problem', but I for one totally see the similarities and hate them. Which everyone else will notice is a post about ISRAEL not the Jewish people. I then defend myself against you calling me a NAZI pointing out the exact similarities between the 3rd Rich's treatment of the Jewish people prior to the 'final solution' and the Israeli treatment of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and you effectively plagiarise my post that led you to call me a NAZI to justify you calling me a NAZI. I am sure there is a name for Trumpianesk people like you but it has slipped my mind, maybe you or some other forumite can remind me of what it is?" You said you where it is here unless you have deleted it | |||
"You said you where it is here unless you have deleted it" And now you accuse me of altering posts in order to justify yourself. Final chance, either you give me a full public apology here and now or I am going to report your attacks on me. Which is something I never do. Your choice. | |||
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"The lack of historical knowledge shown by some on this thread is beyond belief. Firstly, as I have pointed out earlier, the piece of land known as Palestine/Israel was Jewish for centuries before Islam was even thought of, let alone founded. Secondly there never really was a Palestine country as such. For centuries it was ruled/occupied by Romans, Byzantines, Persians, the Islamic empire, Crusaders, and after a period of instability was eventually conquered and ruled by Ottoman Turks for over 400 years. Also worthy of note is that in the first century of rule by the Islamic empire the only Arabs west of the river Jordan were a handful of Bedouin's and military garrisons. So the Myth that the Jews stole the land from the Arabs is exactly that. A myth. After WW1 and the defeat of the Ottomans the region was placed under British administration and remained so for the whole of the inter war period and until 1948. What most don't realise is that the Palestinians allied themselves to Nazi Germany during WW2 and even received a promise from Hitler himself that he would eliminate the Jews in Palestine after "victory" After WW2 it was the UN who proposed the initial two state solution (it was actually three with Jerusalem as an independent entity) and the Jewish state of Israel was born in 1948. Almost from day one the Arabs (including the armies of Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and Lebanon) invaded and tried to drive the Jews into the sea. It was that which led to the first Palestinian refugees and the first expansion of Israel. Had the Arabs accepted the UN resolution at the time and left Israel alone then maybe we would be in a different place today. The Arabs have made further attempts to kill Israel off (six day war, Yom Kippur war) and failed every time. More recently Israel ceded the Gaza strip and parts of the West Bank back to the Palestinians. Palestinians were allowed to cross the border and work in Israel. Israels reward? Bombings and murders by Palestinians on Jews. Eventually Israel had enough and closed the borders which puts us where we are now. Palestinians launching rockets over the border and Israel retaliating. I don't fully support the Israeli actions, sometimes I do think they go over the top. I also think that they should back off with the settlements on the West Bank. However there are two sides to every story and it just isn't fair to make the Israeli's into the bogeymen persecuting the poor Palestinians. The Palestinians, by their own actions and of their Arab allies, have brought a hell of a lot of it on to themselves. " The problem a lot of people including myself, is how the Israeli government is behaving, regardless of history. Isreal, backed by the usa employing double standards when kt comes to un rulings, and more recently, a report of explosive "butterfly" ammunition being used by isreal., one example of a 16yo who was throwing stones and was shot through both legs, destroying those limbs and dying in hospital. Admittedly I've only seen wounds from ordinary ammunition and possibly altered ammunition by cutting a cross in the node of the copper jacket., but this is manufactured explosive ammunition thatz designed for maximum damage. Regardless of hidtory, how can this be judtified? | |||
"The lack of historical knowledge shown by some on this thread is beyond belief. Firstly, as I have pointed out earlier, the piece of land known as Palestine/Israel was Jewish for centuries before Islam was even thought of, let alone founded. Secondly there never really was a Palestine country as such. For centuries it was ruled/occupied by Romans, Byzantines, Persians, the Islamic empire, Crusaders, and after a period of instability was eventually conquered and ruled by Ottoman Turks for over 400 years. Also worthy of note is that in the first century of rule by the Islamic empire the only Arabs west of the river Jordan were a handful of Bedouin's and military garrisons. So the Myth that the Jews stole the land from the Arabs is exactly that. A myth. After WW1 and the defeat of the Ottomans the region was placed under British administration and remained so for the whole of the inter war period and until 1948. What most don't realise is that the Palestinians allied themselves to Nazi Germany during WW2 and even received a promise from Hitler himself that he would eliminate the Jews in Palestine after "victory" After WW2 it was the UN who proposed the initial two state solution (it was actually three with Jerusalem as an independent entity) and the Jewish state of Israel was born in 1948. Almost from day one the Arabs (including the armies of Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and Lebanon) invaded and tried to drive the Jews into the sea. It was that which led to the first Palestinian refugees and the first expansion of Israel. Had the Arabs accepted the UN resolution at the time and left Israel alone then maybe we would be in a different place today. The Arabs have made further attempts to kill Israel off (six day war, Yom Kippur war) and failed every time. More recently Israel ceded the Gaza strip and parts of the West Bank back to the Palestinians. Palestinians were allowed to cross the border and work in Israel. Israels reward? Bombings and murders by Palestinians on Jews. Eventually Israel had enough and closed the borders which puts us where we are now. Palestinians launching rockets over the border and Israel retaliating. I don't fully support the Israeli actions, sometimes I do think they go over the top. I also think that they should back off with the settlements on the West Bank. However there are two sides to every story and it just isn't fair to make the Israeli's into the bogeymen persecuting the poor Palestinians. The Palestinians, by their own actions and of their Arab allies, have brought a hell of a lot of it on to themselves. " Excellent summary. The Palestinians have been screwed by their own leaders. Yasser Arafat's had a secret portfolio worth close to $1 billion. The head of an investigation into his finances stated that "although the money for the portfolio came from public funds like Palestinian taxes, virtually none of it was used for the Palestinian people; it was all controlled by Arafat. And none of these dealings were made public." An investigation conducted by the General Accounting Office reported that Arafat and the PLO held over $10 billion in assets even at the time when he was publicly claiming bankruptcy. | |||
"The lack of historical knowledge shown by some on this thread is beyond belief. Firstly, as I have pointed out earlier, the piece of land known as Palestine/Israel was Jewish for centuries before Islam was even thought of, let alone founded. Secondly there never really was a Palestine country as such. For centuries it was ruled/occupied by Romans, Byzantines, Persians, the Islamic empire, Crusaders, and after a period of instability was eventually conquered and ruled by Ottoman Turks for over 400 years. Also worthy of note is that in the first century of rule by the Islamic empire the only Arabs west of the river Jordan were a handful of Bedouin's and military garrisons. So the Myth that the Jews stole the land from the Arabs is exactly that. A myth. After WW1 and the defeat of the Ottomans the region was placed under British administration and remained so for the whole of the inter war period and until 1948. What most don't realise is that the Palestinians allied themselves to Nazi Germany during WW2 and even received a promise from Hitler himself that he would eliminate the Jews in Palestine after "victory" After WW2 it was the UN who proposed the initial two state solution (it was actually three with Jerusalem as an independent entity) and the Jewish state of Israel was born in 1948. Almost from day one the Arabs (including the armies of Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and Lebanon) invaded and tried to drive the Jews into the sea. It was that which led to the first Palestinian refugees and the first expansion of Israel. Had the Arabs accepted the UN resolution at the time and left Israel alone then maybe we would be in a different place today. The Arabs have made further attempts to kill Israel off (six day war, Yom Kippur war) and failed every time. More recently Israel ceded the Gaza strip and parts of the West Bank back to the Palestinians. Palestinians were allowed to cross the border and work in Israel. Israels reward? Bombings and murders by Palestinians on Jews. Eventually Israel had enough and closed the borders which puts us where we are now. Palestinians launching rockets over the border and Israel retaliating. I don't fully support the Israeli actions, sometimes I do think they go over the top. I also think that they should back off with the settlements on the West Bank. However there are two sides to every story and it just isn't fair to make the Israeli's into the bogeymen persecuting the poor Palestinians. The Palestinians, by their own actions and of their Arab allies, have brought a hell of a lot of it on to themselves. Excellent summary. The Palestinians have been screwed by their own leaders. Yasser Arafat's had a secret portfolio worth close to $1 billion. The head of an investigation into his finances stated that "although the money for the portfolio came from public funds like Palestinian taxes, virtually none of it was used for the Palestinian people; it was all controlled by Arafat. And none of these dealings were made public." An investigation conducted by the General Accounting Office reported that Arafat and the PLO held over $10 billion in assets even at the time when he was publicly claiming bankruptcy." I’m ignornant in the history here but it does seem we talk about Israel versus Palestine when really we mean a select few of both whom are in power and making the polictical and milatary decisions. | |||
"The lack of historical knowledge shown by some on this thread is beyond belief. Firstly, as I have pointed out earlier, the piece of land known as Palestine/Israel was Jewish for centuries before Islam was even thought of, let alone founded. Secondly there never really was a Palestine country as such. For centuries it was ruled/occupied by Romans, Byzantines, Persians, the Islamic empire, Crusaders, and after a period of instability was eventually conquered and ruled by Ottoman Turks for over 400 years. Also worthy of note is that in the first century of rule by the Islamic empire the only Arabs west of the river Jordan were a handful of Bedouin's and military garrisons. So the Myth that the Jews stole the land from the Arabs is exactly that. A myth. After WW1 and the defeat of the Ottomans the region was placed under British administration and remained so for the whole of the inter war period and until 1948. What most don't realise is that the Palestinians allied themselves to Nazi Germany during WW2 and even received a promise from Hitler himself that he would eliminate the Jews in Palestine after "victory" After WW2 it was the UN who proposed the initial two state solution (it was actually three with Jerusalem as an independent entity) and the Jewish state of Israel was born in 1948. Almost from day one the Arabs (including the armies of Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and Lebanon) invaded and tried to drive the Jews into the sea. It was that which led to the first Palestinian refugees and the first expansion of Israel. Had the Arabs accepted the UN resolution at the time and left Israel alone then maybe we would be in a different place today. The Arabs have made further attempts to kill Israel off (six day war, Yom Kippur war) and failed every time. More recently Israel ceded the Gaza strip and parts of the West Bank back to the Palestinians. Palestinians were allowed to cross the border and work in Israel. Israels reward? Bombings and murders by Palestinians on Jews. Eventually Israel had enough and closed the borders which puts us where we are now. Palestinians launching rockets over the border and Israel retaliating. I don't fully support the Israeli actions, sometimes I do think they go over the top. I also think that they should back off with the settlements on the West Bank. However there are two sides to every story and it just isn't fair to make the Israeli's into the bogeymen persecuting the poor Palestinians. The Palestinians, by their own actions and of their Arab allies, have brought a hell of a lot of it on to themselves. " Somewhat ironic that you would lament the lack of historical knowledge of others when your own isn't exactly spot on... For starters, conflating a Palestinian identity with Islam is kind of wide of the mark - even calling them Arab (better conceptually) isn't completely accurate, as if you trace the ancestry of modern day Palestinians (an ancestry they share most closely with Mizrahim Jews incidentally - the genetics suggest that both groups share the same common ancestors) then this links back to pre-Arab civilisations. What the DNA evidence suggests is that early Israelite communities essentially arose from the same root as the peoples that would later be called Palestinians, and that both groups shared the Canaanites (who pre-dated the Israelites by around a millennia) as common ancestors, with some suggesting that the Philistines (or Peleset) were the ancestors of the Palestinians, but that these were essentially assimilated into Canaanite culture where they lived cheek-by-jowl. What the archaeological evidence suggests is that proto-Israelite communities emerged from the Canaanites as hill tribes, distinguished by their lack of burial rituals, plain unadorned pottery and absence of pig bones, somewhere between the 15th and 18th Century BCE. What the written record suggests (in the Merneptah Stele) is that the earliest known record of a discrete civilisation known as the Israelis is from around 1200BCE. By this point the ancient ancestors of today's Israelis and Palestinians had already been coexisting for several centuries. As a minor digression, it's probably worth mentioning that in the early stages the Jews and the Muslims were not only *not* engaged in animosity, but actively defended each other against attacks from others, such as Christians. Regarding there never being a country known as Palestine - firstly this is coming dangerously close to the hasbara tactic of denying that Palestine even exists or has ever existed, as some kind of ridiculous justification for denying rights to people that have lived on the land for countless generations. It needs to be stated - a name is just a name, it really doesn't make any difference. If we are talking about the validity of a claim to the land, then the DNA record speaks for itself - both groups can trace their ancestry back to the same common ancestors - neither should be able to claim precedence over the other (even if we *were* to indulge the - frankly childish - "We was here first!" argument) Secondly, though the historical references to "Palestine" date back to around the 5th Century BCE through either Ptolemy or Herodotus - I can't remember which off the top of my head - the Peleset are also mentioned in Egyptian records around 1200BCE - so around the same time as the earliest written mention of the Israelites. Thirdly, though there may not have been a country with defined borders known as Palestine, what this does is try to impose a modern-day methodology upon an era in which such concepts simply aren't relevant. Back then, there often weren't countries - but rather city-states. This obsession the hasbarists have with defining where the borders were, who the king was etc are simply irrelevance - country or no country, the people existed. Our modern day obsession with drawing lines on maps makes not a bit of difference... The bit about the Nazis is fair, but they weren't exactly alone in that. Before the war started, so we're many in this country - including (if reports are to be believed) members of our Royal Family. What isn't fair is your failure to explicitly mention that the Arab invasion after WW2 was not solely intended as an attack on the Jews but was more of a self-interested land-grab that was probably more to the detriment of the Palestinians than it was to the Jews. Sure, you allude to it by stating that it caused the first wave of Palestinian refugees, but to the uninitiated it still sounds like you're saying the invading armies were on the Palestinians side, when this clearly was not the case. Also unfair is the insinuation that Israeli attacks on Palestine or more specifically Gaza are retialiations against unprovoked rocket attacks, reflects the inherent bias that our media always reports on this situation. Often, the rocket attacks are themselves retialiations - for unprovoked attacks against them, for extrajudicial assassinations (frequently with significant collateral damage), for house demolitions, for killings or for the breaking of ceasefires. There is an excellent book called "More Bad News From Israel" which analyses some of the many incidents during the first and second Intifada and looks at the manner in which they are presented, the language they are couched in, the column inches and airtime given to either side...we are not being given a fair assessment of what is happening over there in our media. Your assertions reflect that inherent bias. There are definitely two sides to every story, and in this horrible and messy conflict, both sides a far - really fucking far - from innocent, but just as the Israelis are not the bogeyman, nor are they the victims... | |||
"You said you where it is here unless you have deleted it And now you accuse me of altering posts in order to justify yourself. Final chance, either you give me a full public apology here and now or I am going to report your attacks on me. Which is something I never do. Your choice. " No msybe nothing deleted did not look back so will apologise for that no apology for anything I have said about you,but you did not ask for that | |||
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"Yes Israel is forcefully taking land. Every country has right to claim land by conquest. Just look back at our history, who are we to judge anouther country who conquers land. Borders are not set in stone, they do change. "
Ummm...no.
In fact the right of conquest no longer exists, and instead countries have the right to territorial integrity. | |||
"Yes Israel is forcefully taking land. Every country has right to claim land by conquest. Just look back at our history, who are we to judge anouther country who conquers land. Borders are not set in stone, they do change.
Ummm...no.
In fact the right of conquest no longer exists, and instead countries have the right to territorial integrity." | |||
"Israel has still to set up death camps and introduce a 'final solution' of the 'Palestinian problem', but I for one totally see the similarities and hate them. " They don't have a concentration camp persay.. But gaza is a prison camp and made brutal by the Israeli policy. I'd bet anyone posting here are releived they weren't born in that prison camp !!! | |||
