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What is democracy?
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By *ild_oatsMan
over a year ago
the land of saints & sinners |
"I haven't changed my mind.
Leave won the referendum.
The only reason this question is asked is because the Conservative Party appears completely out of its depth in making it happen.
"
You may have not changed your mind but others have.
We change our minds about government. We vote political parties in and out.
So to change your about the leaving the EU is the same thing. In a Democracy you are allowed to change your mind....
As an analogy would you still buy a house if after you had a survey done and it told you that what you were buying was a complete lemon.... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Then hold a general election and let parties present their ideas in their manifestos.
We are in this mess because of a binary vote. Another binary vote won't get us out of it."
Yeah but don't you want to say to the brexiters "You lost get over it"
I can't wait.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Then hold a general election and let parties present their ideas in their manifestos.
We are in this mess because of a binary vote. Another binary vote won't get us out of it."
Exactly! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I believ in Democracy. I voted Remain in the 2016 Referendum; but still I believe we should go ahead with the majority decision.
Because if we vote, come to a decision as a country and then undo what the majority has ruled... it defeats the object of voting. |
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"Then hold a general election and let parties present their ideas in their manifestos.
We are in this mess because of a binary vote. Another binary vote won't get us out of it.
Yeah but don't you want to say to the brexiters "You lost get over it"
I can't wait. "
bob you will be the first person on here shouting about the rise in hate crimes if we have a second vote and we stay in the eu because the country will be split ten times worse than it is now and you will still be blaming leave voters be carefull what you wish for mate lol |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"There is no democracy in the age of advanced thought control.
#cambridgeanalytica"
Aye, the post war conservative and liberal ideologies need an update for the digital era.
People really need to read and listen to yuaval harrari more |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"There is no democracy in the age of advanced thought control.
#cambridgeanalytica
Aye, the post war conservative and liberal ideologies need an update for the digital era.
People really need to read and listen to yuaval harrari more "
And need to chill out, stop, breath and think for themselves.
Life is good, the boogeymen don't really exist.
It's hard to believe so many people fall for populist bullshit on both sides.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Democracy is when you get what you want
Democracy is when you can argue & challenged when you don't get what you want
Democracy is when you don't get shot attempting either of the above
 |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Then hold a general election and let parties present their ideas in their manifestos.
We are in this mess because of a binary vote. Another binary vote won't get us out of it.
Yeah but don't you want to say to the brexiters "You lost get over it"
I can't wait. bob you will be the first person on here shouting about the rise in hate crimes if we have a second vote and we stay in the eu because the country will be split ten times worse than it is now and you will still be blaming leave voters be carefull what you wish for mate lol"
What kind of hate crimes are we expecting if there is another refarendum?
Honestly I don’t know, I’m not trying to argue.
I’m not in favour of more refarendums. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Then hold a general election and let parties present their ideas in their manifestos.
We are in this mess because of a binary vote. Another binary vote won't get us out of it.
Yeah but don't you want to say to the brexiters "You lost get over it"
I can't wait. bob you will be the first person on here shouting about the rise in hate crimes if we have a second vote and we stay in the eu because the country will be split ten times worse than it is now and you will still be blaming leave voters be carefull what you wish for mate lol"
If the right wish to respond with violence then they only stain themselves and their movement.Not my problem.  |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"It is not wrong to change your your mind, for example brexit, if not, it ceases to be a democracy, what is your view?"
Ok so you change your mind but what if you change your mind again and then again,do we have a vote every six months?That would be chaos not democracy.
At present parliament is in chaos therefore we do not have democracy at the present tome in this country |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
A referendum would be valid only if it asked a different question.
Membership of EU is decided.
I can see the merit in one about the terms of exit.
But realistically, do we expect the average voter to grasp the implications of either option?
No, leave it to MPs to sort out HOW we exit - they wanted this job, now get on with it. |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"Democracy is when you get what you want
Democracy is when you can argue & challenged when you don't get what you want
Democracy is when you don't get shot attempting either of the above
"
Wrong completely,democracy is exepting that the majority do not agree with you and you can try to change minds yes but not just dismiss the opposing argument as remainers often do that is not democracy.
This site alone has been full of abusive violence from remainers towards brexit that is not democratic,it is nasty small minded and selfish and leads to disaster.If Brexit fails it will be because of stupid remainers trying to prove a point.
By doing this they are possibly ruining the futures of there children etc. |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"If Brexit fails, it will be the fault of the 48 per cent?
Seriously?"
No it will be the fault of those who try to make it fail either through spite or because they think they will benefit from division and failure, remember there is always more money to be made by a few in bad times than there is in good times, clever people do the opposite to the crowd ie get out when everyone is getting in at stupid prices etc, its too easy to want the status quo if youre all right jack, that was the demise of huge parts of UK industry after the war, lazy management and militant unions |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"If Brexit fails, it will be the fault of the 48 per cent?
Seriously?"
Of course it is all remainers fault!
It was all our fault for not beating them in the referendum. It had nothing to do with Farage, Mogg, Gove, Fox,Davis & the most famous clown of them all Boris! |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"If Brexit fails, it will be the fault of the 48 per cent?
Seriously?
Of course it is all remainers fault!
It was all our fault for not beating them in the referendum. It had nothing to do with Farage, Mogg, Gove, Fox,Davis & the most famous clown of them all Boris!"
Perhaps remain should have used a better argument a bit like hilary clinton did against trump, folk who are having a bad time want hope, not fear that its going to be even worse when for them they beleive it wont be, look at the GE when all TM said was look at JC vote for me, fear worked well for her just like it did for remain and clinton |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"If Brexit fails, it will be the fault of the 48 per cent?
Seriously?
Of course it is all remainers fault!
It was all our fault for not beating them in the referendum. It had nothing to do with Farage, Mogg, Gove, Fox,Davis & the most famous clown of them all Boris!"
This is amazing. Someone else said that it’s all remainers fault for not voting in enough numbers. Too funny, you couldn’t make this stuff up. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"If Brexit fails, it will be the fault of the 48 per cent?
Seriously?
Of course it is all remainers fault!
It was all our fault for not beating them in the referendum. It had nothing to do with Farage, Mogg, Gove, Fox,Davis & the most famous clown of them all Boris!
Perhaps remain should have used a better argument a bit like hilary clinton did against trump, folk who are having a bad time want hope, not fear that its going to be even worse when for them they beleive it wont be, look at the GE when all TM said was look at JC vote for me, fear worked well for her just like it did for remain and clinton"
We all hope things will improve. But voting to hand yet more power to the rich elites at the expense of normal people was a national act of self harm.
Hope has to be based on something tangible for it to meaningful. |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"If Brexit fails, it will be the fault of the 48 per cent?
Seriously?
Of course it is all remainers fault!
It was all our fault for not beating them in the referendum. It had nothing to do with Farage, Mogg, Gove, Fox,Davis & the most famous clown of them all Boris!
Perhaps remain should have used a better argument a bit like hilary clinton did against trump, folk who are having a bad time want hope, not fear that its going to be even worse when for them they beleive it wont be, look at the GE when all TM said was look at JC vote for me, fear worked well for her just like it did for remain and clinton
We all hope things will improve. But voting to hand yet more power to the rich elites at the expense of normal people was a national act of self harm.
Hope has to be based on something tangible for it to meaningful. "
Yet the vast majority of the rich "elite" want to remain not leave you have been hoodwinked unless of course you are one of the Elite |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"If Brexit fails, it will be the fault of the 48 per cent?
Seriously?
Of course it is all remainers fault!
It was all our fault for not beating them in the referendum. It had nothing to do with Farage, Mogg, Gove, Fox,Davis & the most famous clown of them all Boris!
Perhaps remain should have used a better argument a bit like hilary clinton did against trump, folk who are having a bad time want hope, not fear that its going to be even worse when for them they beleive it wont be, look at the GE when all TM said was look at JC vote for me, fear worked well for her just like it did for remain and clinton"
Oh I agree in hindsight remain were poor - but they were legal - only leave have been proved to have acted illegally! |
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"It is not wrong to change your your mind, for example brexit, if not, it ceases to be a democracy, what is your view?"
People do change their minds...about 40 years ago we voted in....a couple of years ago we voted out. |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"If Brexit fails, it will be the fault of the 48 per cent?
Seriously?
Of course it is all remainers fault!
It was all our fault for not beating them in the referendum. It had nothing to do with Farage, Mogg, Gove, Fox,Davis & the most famous clown of them all Boris!
Perhaps remain should have used a better argument a bit like hilary clinton did against trump, folk who are having a bad time want hope, not fear that its going to be even worse when for them they beleive it wont be, look at the GE when all TM said was look at JC vote for me, fear worked well for her just like it did for remain and clinton
Oh I agree in hindsight remain were poor - but they were legal - only leave have been proved to have acted illegally! "
AFAIK NO one has been proved of doing anything illegal yet, its a strange world when if russia said leave the eu then thats wrong but when the POTUS says stay thats fine and dandy,perhaps we shall see cameron up in court for lying by saying he would trigger art50 the first day and take us out, plenty of claims about students voting in two places,of course the bbc gets money from the eu aswell and they were/are plainly remain supporting so that must be illegal too, where does this nonsense stop |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Democracy is when you get what you want
Democracy is when you can argue & challenged when you don't get what you want
Democracy is when you don't get shot attempting either of the above
Wrong completely,democracy is exepting that the majority do not agree with you and you can try to change minds yes but not just dismiss the opposing argument as remainers often do that is not democracy.
This site alone has been full of abusive violence from remainers towards brexit that is not democratic,it is nasty small minded and selfish and leads to disaster.If Brexit fails it will be because of stupid remainers trying to prove a point.
By doing this they are possibly ruining the futures of there children etc."
There is always two sides two every story, and I imagine remainers feel equally dismissed, eg project fear and we won, get over it.
And if it fails, it won’t be because they had valid concerns, but because they made it fail out of spite. This, in itself, feels dismissive.
|
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Democracy is when you get what you want
Democracy is when you can argue & challenged when you don't get what you want
Democracy is when you don't get shot attempting either of the above
Wrong completely,democracy is exepting that the majority do not agree with you and you can try to change minds yes but not just dismiss the opposing argument as remainers often do that is not democracy.
This site alone has been full of abusive violence from remainers towards brexit that is not democratic,it is nasty small minded and selfish and leads to disaster.If Brexit fails it will be because of stupid remainers trying to prove a point.
By doing this they are possibly ruining the futures of there children etc.
There is always two sides two every story, and I imagine remainers feel equally dismissed, eg project fear and we won, get over it.
And if it fails, it won’t be because they had valid concerns, but because they made it fail out of spite. This, in itself, feels dismissive.
"
Yes and it is easy to blame the remainers when it doesnt go the brexiters way, which was set to fail even before it started. |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"Democracy is when you get what you want
Democracy is when you can argue & challenged when you don't get what you want
Democracy is when you don't get shot attempting either of the above
Wrong completely,democracy is exepting that the majority do not agree with you and you can try to change minds yes but not just dismiss the opposing argument as remainers often do that is not democracy.
This site alone has been full of abusive violence from remainers towards brexit that is not democratic,it is nasty small minded and selfish and leads to disaster.If Brexit fails it will be because of stupid remainers trying to prove a point.
By doing this they are possibly ruining the futures of there children etc.
There is always two sides two every story, and I imagine remainers feel equally dismissed, eg project fear and we won, get over it.
And if it fails, it won’t be because they had valid concerns, but because they made it fail out of spite. This, in itself, feels dismissive.
Yes and it is easy to blame the remainers when it doesnt go the brexiters way, which was set to fail even before it started."
who was in charge, is in charge and therefore in your words set it to fail? clue it begins with a R |
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"Then hold a general election and let parties present their ideas in their manifestos.
We are in this mess because of a binary vote. Another binary vote won't get us out of it.
Yeah but don't you want to say to the brexiters "You lost get over it"
I can't wait. bob you will be the first person on here shouting about the rise in hate crimes if we have a second vote and we stay in the eu because the country will be split ten times worse than it is now and you will still be blaming leave voters be carefull what you wish for mate lol
If the right wish to respond with violence then they only stain themselves and their movement.Not my problem. "
. Yes not your problem bob but you will be the loudest on here shouting about a rise in it even tho you no a second vote plays into the hands of your sworn enemy the far right |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Democracy is when you get what you want
Democracy is when you can argue & challenged when you don't get what you want
Democracy is when you don't get shot attempting either of the above
Wrong completely,democracy is exepting that the majority do not agree with you and you can try to change minds yes but not just dismiss the opposing argument as remainers often do that is not democracy.
This site alone has been full of abusive violence from remainers towards brexit that is not democratic,it is nasty small minded and selfish and leads to disaster.If Brexit fails it will be because of stupid remainers trying to prove a point.
By doing this they are possibly ruining the futures of there children etc.
There is always two sides two every story, and I imagine remainers feel equally dismissed, eg project fear and we won, get over it.
And if it fails, it won’t be because they had valid concerns, but because they made it fail out of spite. This, in itself, feels dismissive.
Yes and it is easy to blame the remainers when it doesnt go the brexiters way, which was set to fail even before it started.
who was in charge, is in charge and therefore in your words set it to fail? clue it begins with a R"
R is delivering brexit. Personally I think it’s a better version than wto. And I don’t know what the utopia version which the Eu would sign up to looks like. If Rs version is voted down, this will be down to Ls voting against her. |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"Democracy is when you get what you want
Democracy is when you can argue & challenged when you don't get what you want
Democracy is when you don't get shot attempting either of the above
Wrong completely,democracy is exepting that the majority do not agree with you and you can try to change minds yes but not just dismiss the opposing argument as remainers often do that is not democracy.
This site alone has been full of abusive violence from remainers towards brexit that is not democratic,it is nasty small minded and selfish and leads to disaster.If Brexit fails it will be because of stupid remainers trying to prove a point.
By doing this they are possibly ruining the futures of there children etc.
There is always two sides two every story, and I imagine remainers feel equally dismissed, eg project fear and we won, get over it.
And if it fails, it won’t be because they had valid concerns, but because they made it fail out of spite. This, in itself, feels dismissive.
Yes and it is easy to blame the remainers when it doesnt go the brexiters way, which was set to fail even before it started.
who was in charge, is in charge and therefore in your words set it to fail? clue it begins with a R
R is delivering brexit. Personally I think it’s a better version than wto. And I don’t know what the utopia version which the Eu would sign up to looks like. If Rs version is voted down, this will be down to Ls voting against her. "
I can accept thats your view which I 100 % accept but I think many leave supporters beleive its leave by name only and could well end up as no leave at all,now who will be responsible for that( rather than who gets blamed) I think we will have to wait a long time to find out when cabinet papers are released and memoirs are written |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Democracy is when you get what you want
Democracy is when you can argue & challenged when you don't get what you want
Democracy is when you don't get shot attempting either of the above
Wrong completely,democracy is exepting that the majority do not agree with you and you can try to change minds yes but not just dismiss the opposing argument as remainers often do that is not democracy.
This site alone has been full of abusive violence from remainers towards brexit that is not democratic,it is nasty small minded and selfish and leads to disaster.
If Brexit fails it will be because of stupid remainers trying to prove a point.
"
Haha bloody hell you're funny.
If BREXIT fails there's only one side to blame if you want to allocate blame & that's the one's who voted for it.
Never read such a stupid comment.... well I have but this one's up there |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
But Brits love glorious failures, don’t they?
Dunkirk, the Somme, Scott of the Antartic, the Light Brigade, the North West Passage.
Disasters transformed into tales of the glorious character and fortitude of those plucky Brits.
Brexit promises to be up there with the very best of them.
Nothing to do with me or anyone else who voted Remain.
Everything to do with those who swallowed the bullshit and thought you could leave the EU with a plan painted on the side of a bus.
No plan, no programme, no schedule, no costings - nothing.
Who needs to do what, how and by when. Nope, nothing.
No maps, no compass, no tools, no vision of what Brexit even looked like.
Just that good old Dunkirk spirit that will see us through, chaps!
And people wonder why it’s going belly up?
Lololol tally ho’ |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"Dunkirk ? Did we not win the war lol"
Britain thought it could at the start.
Dunkirk proved how hopeleslly ill-prepared it was. Going to war without a plan.
That it survived what followed was by the skin of its teeth.
Britain on its own was wrecked by the BEF folly.
It took the arrival of the Americans, plus the troops of dozens of other countries to turn it around.
And let’s not forget the German A team was taking on the Soviets who, probably more than any single nation, “won the war”.
The rest of the world has moved on. Britain keeps replaying it in its mind, thinking it must get better every time. |
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"Democracy is when you get what you want
Democracy is when you can argue & challenged when you don't get what you want
Democracy is when you don't get shot attempting either of the above
Wrong completely,democracy is exepting that the majority do not agree with you and you can try to change minds yes but not just dismiss the opposing argument as remainers often do that is not democracy.
This site alone has been full of abusive violence from remainers towards brexit that is not democratic,it is nasty small minded and selfish and leads to disaster.If Brexit fails it will be because of stupid remainers trying to prove a point.
By doing this they are possibly ruining the futures of there children etc.
There is always two sides two every story, and I imagine remainers feel equally dismissed, eg project fear and we won, get over it.
And if it fails, it won’t be because they had valid concerns, but because they made it fail out of spite. This, in itself, feels dismissive.
Yes and it is easy to blame the remainers when it doesnt go the brexiters way, which was set to fail even before it started.
who was in charge, is in charge and therefore in your words set it to fail? clue it begins with a R"
Rees Mogg and the ERG? |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"If Brexit fails, it will be the fault of the 48 per cent?
Seriously?
No it will be the fault of those who try to make it fail either through spite or because they think they will benefit from division and failure, remember there is always more money to be made by a few in bad times than there is in good times, clever people do the opposite to the crowd ie get out when everyone is getting in at stupid prices etc, its too easy to want the status quo if youre all right jack, that was the demise of huge parts of UK industry after the war, lazy management and militant unions "
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It is not wrong to change your your mind, for example brexit, if not, it ceases to be a democracy, what is your view?"
You vote for what you think on the day, if you regret it later? TOUGH!,
This is the reason politicians promise everything, then when they get voted in... Wallop, they renage on their promises |
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"It is not wrong to change your your mind, for example brexit, if not, it ceases to be a democracy, what is your view?
You vote for what you think on the day, if you regret it later? TOUGH!,
This is the reason politicians promise everything, then when they get voted in... Wallop, they renage on their promises "
Can you give some examples? A few from Labour and a few from the Conservatives.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Dunkirk ? Did we not win the war lol
Britain thought it could at the start.
Dunkirk proved how hopeleslly ill-prepared it was. Going to war without a plan.
That it survived what followed was by the skin of its teeth.
Britain on its own was wrecked by the BEF folly.
It took the arrival of the Americans, plus the troops of dozens of other countries to turn it around.
And let’s not forget the German A team was taking on the Soviets who, probably more than any single nation, “won the war”.
The rest of the world has moved on. Britain keeps replaying it in its mind, thinking it must get better every time."
I pointed this all out on a previous post throwing into the mix that the USA charged us through the nose for our war loans to fuck us over and kill off what was left of our empire. The truth is we are always at war with other empires either economically or physically and to then go harking back to the grand old days as if we are still the worlds most important nation is an abdication of responsibility and a waste of intelligence. There is probably a much greater intention at work here which is to undermine the EU and whether thats by Russia or the USA or China doesnt matter but make no mistake we are just a pawn in this game and sabre rattling just makes is look silly. |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"I believ in Democracy. I voted Remain in the 2016 Referendum; but still I believe we should go ahead with the majority decision.
Because if we vote, come to a decision as a country and then undo what the majority has ruled... it defeats the object of voting."
If the majority change their mind they are "undoing" democracy?
I can understand if Parliament or the government decided on a different course, but the same people?
You'll have to explain that  |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Then hold a general election and let parties present their ideas in their manifestos.
We are in this mess because of a binary vote. Another binary vote won't get us out of it.
Yeah but don't you want to say to the brexiters "You lost get over it"
I can't wait. bob you will be the first person on here shouting about the rise in hate crimes if we have a second vote and we stay in the eu because the country will be split ten times worse than it is now and you will still be blaming leave voters be carefull what you wish for mate lol"
Sounds like a new Leave "project fear" but violence rather than floods of immigrants this time.
How can the country be split worse than 50:50? What's the new alternative going to be? |
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"Then hold a general election and let parties present their ideas in their manifestos.
We are in this mess because of a binary vote. Another binary vote won't get us out of it.
Yeah but don't you want to say to the brexiters "You lost get over it"
I can't wait. bob you will be the first person on here shouting about the rise in hate crimes if we have a second vote and we stay in the eu because the country will be split ten times worse than it is now and you will still be blaming leave voters be carefull what you wish for mate lol
Sounds like a new Leave "project fear" but violence rather than floods of immigrants this time.
How can the country be split worse than 50:50? What's the new alternative going to be?"
The country is not split 50:50 though is it. A majority 52% want to Leave. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Then hold a general election and let parties present their ideas in their manifestos.
We are in this mess because of a binary vote. Another binary vote won't get us out of it.
Yeah but don't you want to say to the brexiters "You lost get over it"
I can't wait. bob you will be the first person on here shouting about the rise in hate crimes if we have a second vote and we stay in the eu because the country will be split ten times worse than it is now and you will still be blaming leave voters be carefull what you wish for mate lol
Sounds like a new Leave "project fear" but violence rather than floods of immigrants this time.
How can the country be split worse than 50:50? What's the new alternative going to be?
The country is not split 50:50 though is it. A majority 52% want to Leave. "
Wrong 28 million ppl didnt vote ,and if there was another vote and ppl knowing what they do now the majority would be about 80/20 to remain |
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"It is not wrong to change your your mind, for example brexit, if not, it ceases to be a democracy, what is your view?
You vote for what you think on the day, if you regret it later? TOUGH!,
This is the reason politicians promise everything, then when they get voted in... Wallop, they renage on their promises
Can you give some examples? A few from Labour and a few from the Conservatives.
"
Bush Snr, a conservative Republican President promised "no more taxes" then introduced more taxes. He subsequently lost the next election.
Lib dem party leader Nick Clegg promised "No tuition fees" then got into power in the coalition government and introduced Tuition fees. The Lib dems subsequently got hammered in the next election and lost seats.
Labour under Blair/Brown promised a referendum to the British people on the EU Lisbon treaty, then never gave us one and just went ahead and signed it anyway without the consent of the people. Labour subsequently lost the next election.
Notice a pattern here?
It's this kind of disrespect of democracy and broken promises which fuels populism. People just want politicians who will stick to their word and who will deliver what they promise. The Tories promised to respect the result of the referendum and promised to implement the result of the referendum in 2016. If they don't deliver then we will see the pattern repeated and they will lose the next election. |
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"Then hold a general election and let parties present their ideas in their manifestos.
We are in this mess because of a binary vote. Another binary vote won't get us out of it.
Yeah but don't you want to say to the brexiters "You lost get over it"
I can't wait. bob you will be the first person on here shouting about the rise in hate crimes if we have a second vote and we stay in the eu because the country will be split ten times worse than it is now and you will still be blaming leave voters be carefull what you wish for mate lol
Sounds like a new Leave "project fear" but violence rather than floods of immigrants this time.
How can the country be split worse than 50:50? What's the new alternative going to be?
The country is not split 50:50 though is it. A majority 52% want to Leave.
Wrong 28 million ppl didnt vote ,and if there was another vote and ppl knowing what they do now the majority would be about 80/20 to remain "
People who can't be arsed to vote (in any election) are irrelevant and have no right to complain about results if they were too lazy to exercise their democratic right to vote via the ballot box.
As for your 80/20 assumption for remain is that your own opinion or do you have any evidence to back it up? Polling experts like Professor John Curtis say there is no consistent evidence to suggest a significant number of people have changed their minds and if anything people's positions have hardened over the last 2 years. Some polls also still point to a majority for Leave. |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Then hold a general election and let parties present their ideas in their manifestos.
We are in this mess because of a binary vote. Another binary vote won't get us out of it.
Yeah but don't you want to say to the brexiters "You lost get over it"
I can't wait. bob you will be the first person on here shouting about the rise in hate crimes if we have a second vote and we stay in the eu because the country will be split ten times worse than it is now and you will still be blaming leave voters be carefull what you wish for mate lol
Sounds like a new Leave "project fear" but violence rather than floods of immigrants this time.
How can the country be split worse than 50:50? What's the new alternative going to be?
The country is not split 50:50 though is it. A majority 52% want to Leave.
Wrong 28 million ppl didnt vote ,and if there was another vote and ppl knowing what they do now the majority would be about 80/20 to remain
People who can't be arsed to vote (in any election) are irrelevant and have no right to complain about results if they were too lazy to exercise their democratic right to vote via the ballot box.
As for your 80/20 assumption for remain is that your own opinion or do you have any evidence to back it up? Polling experts like Professor John Curtis say there is no consistent evidence to suggest a significant number of people have changed their minds and if anything people's positions have hardened over the last 2 years. Some polls also still point to a majority for Leave. "
You don't believe in pols, yet you constantly quote them
If some polls say leave and some say remain it means that your Brexit win is tenuous at best.
You know that and we know that |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
Personally I dont know anyone who voted leave who has changed their mind but I know a few who voted remain who say they will now vote leave, some because they see the lies remain told and the way the EU and remain mp's have behaved others because although they still like parts of the EU they accept that the vote must be honoured. of course its a tiny number compared to the country but those who think another vote would mean they get their way could be in for a very nasty surprise |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Personally I dont know anyone who voted leave who has changed their mind but I know a few who voted remain who say they will now vote leave, some because they see the lies remain told and the way the EU and remain mp's have behaved others because although they still like parts of the EU they accept that the vote must be honoured. of course its a tiny number compared to the country but those who think another vote would mean they get their way could be in for a very nasty surprise"
You could be right! I think remain were guilty of complacency before, I don't think they will be as naive next time around! As for switching sides - anybody's guess on the numbers! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It is not wrong to change your your mind, for example brexit, if not, it ceases to be a democracy, what is your view?
You vote for what you think on the day, if you regret it later? TOUGH!,
This is the reason politicians promise everything, then when they get voted in... Wallop, they renage on their promises
Can you give some examples? A few from Labour and a few from the Conservatives.
Bush Snr, a conservative Republican President promised "no more taxes" then introduced more taxes. He subsequently lost the next election.
Lib dem party leader Nick Clegg promised "No tuition fees" then got into power in the coalition government and introduced Tuition fees. The Lib dems subsequently got hammered in the next election and lost seats.
Labour under Blair/Brown promised a referendum to the British people on the EU Lisbon treaty, then never gave us one and just went ahead and signed it anyway without the consent of the people. Labour subsequently lost the next election.
Notice a pattern here?
It's this kind of disrespect of democracy and broken promises which fuels populism. People just want politicians who will stick to their word and who will deliver what they promise. The Tories promised to respect the result of the referendum and promised to implement the result of the referendum in 2016. If they don't deliver then we will see the pattern repeated and they
will lose the next election. "
That pattern is based on your opinion of why those events happened. I'd say you were only correct with Bush. The lib Dems got hammered as they got into bed with a right wing con government after campainging left of labour.
Labour lost cause of the 2008 crash and the Iraq war I'd say.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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So we are told we are the 5th biggest economy in the world and yet over the last 15 years we have had increasing austerity placed upon our shoulders (student loans, pensions devalued, astronomic property values, xero hours contracts,etc) and now we are faced with brexit as a solution to those pesky foreigners taking all our jobs and money I just wonder why anyone has any faith in parliament anymore? Perhaps Brexit has only ever been about the powerlessness that the public has felt in regard to their futures and those of their children. I doubt very much that the number of leavers will have changed as a percentage of the population BUT I am sure that there will be more remainers if only because new young voters want to travel abroad and see the advantages of freedom of movement and travel in Europe. What I have never understood about all the anti EU propaganda is that esssentially the concept is no different to that of the USA in terms of an overall nation but with individual states (countries) within the greater good. I’m probably rambling a bit again but I can’t see any advantage to leaving the EU for the majority of the nation whereas I can see that political protest at real problems like the ever increasing indebtedness of the lower paid and lack of compassion towards the poor in society is a good idea. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Dunkirk ? Did we not win the war lol
Britain thought it could at the start.
Dunkirk proved how hopeleslly ill-prepared it was. Going to war without a plan.
That it survived what followed was by the skin of its teeth.
Britain on its own was wrecked by the BEF folly.
It took the arrival of the Americans, plus the troops of dozens of other countries to turn it around.
And let’s not forget the German A team was taking on the Soviets who, probably more than any single nation, “won the war”.
The rest of the world has moved on. Britain keeps replaying it in its mind, thinking it must get better every time."
Disagree on the whole Soviets winning the war comment. Maybe they won it as they basically annexed eastern Europe after the war.
The Soviets were the sledge hammer which kept on getting stuck in mud, but when they struck it was generally decisive against the German's due to numbers, and the fact that the British/allied blockade and disruptive diplomacy drained germany of oil. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"So we are told we are the 5th biggest economy in the world and yet over the last 15 years we have had increasing austerity placed upon our shoulders (student loans, pensions devalued, astronomic property values, xero hours contracts,etc) and now we are faced with brexit as a solution to those pesky foreigners taking all our jobs and money I just wonder why anyone has any faith in parliament anymore? Perhaps Brexit has only ever been about the powerlessness that the public has felt in regard to their futures and those of their children. I doubt very much that the number of leavers will have changed as a percentage of the population BUT I am sure that there will be more remainers if only because new young voters want to travel abroad and see the advantages of freedom of movement and travel in Europe. What I have never understood about all the anti EU propaganda is that esssentially the concept is no different to that of the USA in terms of an overall nation but with individual states (countries) within the greater good. I’m probably rambling a bit again but I can’t see any advantage to leaving the EU for the majority of the nation whereas I can see that political protest at real problems like the ever increasing indebtedness of the lower paid and lack of compassion towards the poor in society is a good idea."
This is the great paradox of Brexit. Austerity, poverty, social exclusion, the wealth divide and political elitism were at least partly responsible for the Brexit protest vote.
Unfortunately Brexit will not improve any of those things and it is more likely to make all of them worse - not better. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"Personally I dont know anyone who voted leave who has changed their mind but I know a few who voted remain who say they will now vote leave, some because they see the lies remain told and the way the EU and remain mp's have behaved others because although they still like parts of the EU they accept that the vote must be honoured. of course its a tiny number compared to the country but those who think another vote would mean they get their way could be in for a very nasty surprise"
You could be right and you could be wrong.
The issue at heart though is that even if you are wrong and Remain won, it would likely be by a small majority again. A small Remain majority or a small Leave majority second time around simply entrenches the hostility and divisions that are already present.
The country is divided and it is going to be pointless for one side or the other to drag the other half kicking and screaming down a road that they don’t want to go.
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"It is not wrong to change your your mind, for example brexit, if not, it ceases to be a democracy, what is your view?
You vote for what you think on the day, if you regret it later? TOUGH!,
This is the reason politicians promise everything, then when they get voted in... Wallop, they renage on their promises
Can you give some examples? A few from Labour and a few from the Conservatives.
Bush Snr, a conservative Republican President promised "no more taxes" then introduced more taxes. He subsequently lost the next election.
Lib dem party leader Nick Clegg promised "No tuition fees" then got into power in the coalition government and introduced Tuition fees. The Lib dems subsequently got hammered in the next election and lost seats.
Labour under Blair/Brown promised a referendum to the British people on the EU Lisbon treaty, then never gave us one and just went ahead and signed it anyway without the consent of the people. Labour subsequently lost the next election.
Notice a pattern here?
It's this kind of disrespect of democracy and broken promises which fuels populism. People just want politicians who will stick to their word and who will deliver what they promise. The Tories promised to respect the result of the referendum and promised to implement the result of the referendum in 2016. If they don't deliver then we will see the pattern repeated and they will lose the next election. "
I actually meant British politicians but I'll take all three of your examples.
Bush never actually said "no more taxes" what he said was "read my lips, no NEW taxes". Bush never introduced any new taxes.
Clegg didn't say "no tuition fees" he said "no increase in tuition fees". It is an important difference. He did actually vote to increase tuition fees from £3,000 to £9,000 but, at the same time, the actual amount of money the student pays (the fee) is less now than it was before. A lot of people bang on about student loans and how awful it all is but, having put students through both systems, the current system is definitely better and more affordable than the previous one.
Tony Blair's Govetment nether promised a referendum on The Lisbon treaty. What he did promise was a referendum on the Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe. This referendum was expected to take place in the United Kingdom in 2006 to decide whether the country should ratify the proposed treaty. However, following the rejection of the Constitution by similar referendums in France in May 2005 and the Netherlands in June 2005, the UK vote was postponed indefinitely. The question was rendered moot when ratification of the constitution was superseded EU in line with the results of the French and Dutch referenda. It would have been a total waist of time to hold a referendum on a treaty that had already been withdrawn by the EU.
So three examples. Two where no one lied at all (Bush and Blair) and one where, on the headlines the person did lie, although I personally think he meant what he said when he said it, but the actual result (students paying less in fees while actually at university) achieved what he set out to achieve (Clegg).
I think the real problem here is not so much politicians lying but more people hearing what they want to hear. "No new taxes" may sound like "no more taxes" or "no new tax increases" but it's not. A bit like " ... could spend on the NHS" is heard as " ... will spend on the NHS".
We all need to listen more to what politicians actually say and not assume that what they've actually said is what we wanted to hear.
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"It is not wrong to change your your mind, for example brexit, if not, it ceases to be a democracy, what is your view?
You vote for what you think on the day, if you regret it later? TOUGH!,
This is the reason politicians promise everything, then when they get voted in... Wallop, they renage on their promises
Can you give some examples? A few from Labour and a few from the Conservatives.
Bush Snr, a conservative Republican President promised "no more taxes" then introduced more taxes. He subsequently lost the next election.
Lib dem party leader Nick Clegg promised "No tuition fees" then got into power in the coalition government and introduced Tuition fees. The Lib dems subsequently got hammered in the next election and lost seats.
Labour under Blair/Brown promised a referendum to the British people on the EU Lisbon treaty, then never gave us one and just went ahead and signed it anyway without the consent of the people. Labour subsequently lost the next election.
Notice a pattern here?
It's this kind of disrespect of democracy and broken promises which fuels populism. People just want politicians who will stick to their word and who will deliver what they promise. The Tories promised to respect the result of the referendum and promised to implement the result of the referendum in 2016. If they don't deliver then we will see the pattern repeated and they
will lose the next election.
That pattern is based on your opinion of why those events happened. I'd say you were only correct with Bush. The lib Dems got hammered as they got into bed with a right wing con government after campainging left of labour.
Labour lost cause of the 2008 crash and the Iraq war I'd say.
"
I think this is closer to the reality of what actually happened.
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Keynes once famously said "when the facts change, I change my mind, what do you do?"
When there was a narrow vote for leave in 2016 no one could have foreseen where we are now. Hence the facts have changed. Hence it seems to me perfectly reasonable to see if the public has changed its mind in the light of those facts? |
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"Keynes once famously said "when the facts change, I change my mind, what do you do?"
When there was a narrow vote for leave in 2016 no one could have foreseen where we are now. Hence the facts have changed. Hence it seems to me perfectly reasonable to see if the public has changed its mind in the light of those facts? "
The facts have changed. Many lies and underhand, potentially illegal election activities are now known too. There are new facts, upon what specifically leaving the EU would mean for everyone. With greater wisdom, it would be foolish to assume that things could be static, except where voting is done dogmatically, irrespective of the consequences etc. I think it was Sara that mentioned she'd seen a £26 per year cost per person in the UK, for having the EU membership. That sort of figure would be great if it was more widely known. I wonder if just travel permits may be a similar price for UK travellers heading into Europe, if it leaves the EU  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It is not wrong to change your your mind, for example brexit, if not, it ceases to be a democracy, what is your view?
You vote for what you think on the day, if you regret it later? TOUGH!,
This is the reason politicians promise everything, then when they get voted in... Wallop, they renage on their promises
Can you give some examples? A few from Labour and a few from the Conservatives.
"
Labour:
We will not raise the basic or top rates of income tax in the next Parliament
"By the end of 2008, no NHS patient will have to wait longer than a maximum of 18 weeks from the time they are referred for a hospital operation by their GP until the time they have that operation."
Tory shitbags :
will balance the books by 2017 and then run a budget surplus.
We will work to end child poverty
We will deliver a strong NHS.
We will boost mental health funding. |
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