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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Which the best example of democracy. And which is the worst.
1. The elected government implementing the result of a referendum
2. An elected parliament rejecting a vote which they feel is not on the interest of the people.
3. Asking the people their view on an issue.
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By *ild_oatsMan
over a year ago
the land of saints & sinners |
Referendums are the preserve of weak government, dictators and demagogues.
Referendums, often “distill complex issues into a simplistic choice, stoking a harsh type of populism.
When you’re asked to answer simply “yes” or “no” on a complicated policy question, you can’t choose the type of compromise solution that elected representatives often seek. And since governments can stage them at will, referendums tend to be deployed for the sake of political expediency, not the public good. |
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By *eckyJayCouple
over a year ago
northampton |
In a representative democracy (presumably you’re referring to the UK), number 2 would be the best example, being the a description of what is, at least in part, expected of our representatives: to use their best endeavours to act in the best interest of the country (I make no assertions as to what that might be).
Number 3, implementing the results of a referendum regardless of whether the representative believes it would be good for the country and its people is the worse example of what should happen in a representative democracy and the best example of what actually does happen.
Now for the correct answer. By assuming we live in a direct democracy: number 1 is the best - they need to do as the people voted the first time around. If they run a second referendum and the people vote to remain then they would be going against what the people want and that’s just not right. Wait... Hold on... They’d be going against what the people wanted even though they want it now. Well, something like that. Sovereignty, vassal state etc.
I make light of a serious issue, but I do feel that number 3(ish) is the worse. Regardless of which side you’re on, asking the people not just for their opinion but to make a decision on extremely complex matters is just an MPs way of slacking off. Let’s not do that again
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"Which the best example of democracy. And which is the worst.
1. The elected government implementing the result of a referendum
2. An elected parliament rejecting a vote which they feel is not on the interest of the people.
3. Asking the people their view on an issue.
"
1 Is definitely the best
2 Is definitely the worst |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"Referendums are the preserve of weak government, dictators and demagogues.
Referendums, often “distill complex issues into a simplistic choice, stoking a harsh type of populism.
When you’re asked to answer simply “yes” or “no” on a complicated policy question, you can’t choose the type of compromise solution that elected representatives often seek. And since governments can stage them at will, referendums tend to be deployed for the sake of political expediency, not the public good."
Yes you are largely right,but Switzeland does ok,but do not know a lot about how the system is implemented to be honest |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Do we not elect MP's to act in our best interests and Country as a whole as they see it ?
The answer is obviously yes
The Government asked the people a question but will MP's act upon the public majority decision if they think it's a bad decision ?
Just try forgetting what the Government said for a minute regarding the referendum result of that's at all possible, I know it will be hard for some. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Which the best example of democracy. And which is the worst.
1. The elected government implementing the result of a referendum
2. An elected parliament rejecting a vote which they feel is not on the interest of the people.
3. Asking the people their view on an issue.
"
1. If all major Government decisions were based on referendum results the country would not be able to function.
2. We vote MP's in to do just that, make decisions based on what they feel is best for the Country.
3. Nothing wrong with asking what we think on a matter but depending on what the end result could be brings no. 2 into play making no. 3 a bit irrelevant. |
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By *oghunter33Woman
over a year ago
on the hill NordWest of |
"Referendums are the preserve of weak government, dictators and demagogues.
Referendums, often “distill complex issues into a simplistic choice, stoking a harsh type of populism.
When you’re asked to answer simply “yes” or “no” on a complicated policy question, you can’t choose the type of compromise solution that elected representatives often seek. And since governments can stage them at will, referendums tend to be deployed for the sake of political expediency, not the public good.Yes you are largely right,but Switzeland does ok,but do not know a lot about how the system is implemented to be honest"
Switzerland as a direct democracy has a long tradition of referendum politics. In no way has this little country shown any weakness in governing or being prone to demagogues. The big difference is that the Swiss people aren't being asked to vote about a Pandora's box nobody knows the outcome and they certainly would have a second referendum about the deal. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Maybe these recent events have shown how bad our system is?
Maybe now is the time to change our political system for one which works in 21st century?
Just because we have always done it that way, it doesn't mean it's the best way! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The referendum was never binding anyway, and at near 50 50 result, yes I know I know all that was needed was a majority, Bla Bla Bla but we were never going to get a proper negotiation anyway, a much stronger mandate to leave was needed. That was the big mistake David Cameron made but the question and parameters were set by the electoral commission and voted by parliament. It should have had some sort of safety net result say 55 45 either way, but hindsight is a wonderful thing eh. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The referendum was never binding anyway, and at near 50 50 result, yes I know I know all that was needed was a majority, Bla Bla Bla but we were never going to get a proper negotiation anyway, a much stronger mandate to leave was needed. That was the big mistake David Cameron made but the question and parameters were set by the electoral commission and voted by parliament. It should have had some sort of safety net result say 55 45 either way, but hindsight is a wonderful thing eh."
The referendum was advisory only - the government need not have actioned the result - so have only themselves to blame. Tory radicals will kill the party - Just wait and see. |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"The referendum was never binding anyway, and at near 50 50 result, yes I know I know all that was needed was a majority, Bla Bla Bla but we were never going to get a proper negotiation anyway, a much stronger mandate to leave was needed. That was the big mistake David Cameron made but the question and parameters were set by the electoral commission and voted by parliament. It should have had some sort of safety net result say 55 45 either way, but hindsight is a wonderful thing eh.
The referendum was advisory only - the government need not have actioned the result - so have only themselves to blame. Tory radicals will kill the party - Just wait and see."
this is what was said in the leaflet
This is your decision. The
Government will implement
what you decide.
How many times did cameron et al say a vote to leave the eu means leaving the single market and customs union etc etc.
How many times have remainers claimer that people didnt know this. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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And Mrs May is implementing a half in half out deal, just as the referendum result said it should be. Infact...... It's better than half in half out, it's 52% out, 48% in 
So why the isn't it being actioned by these MPs so that we can all get on with our lives again without worry of losing our jobs. The leavers have what they want at a small cost to the economy as regards freedom of movement will be ended. The remainers don't want wholesale uncertainy and damage.
I can't really understand what all the fuss is about. We don't live in fricking Norway or Canada do we. We live in Little England with our own particular problem of a border which in the recent past has been a war zone. When was the last time Norway, finland or Sweden were at war. Answer...... quite a long time ago. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The referendum was never binding anyway, and at near 50 50 result, yes I know I know all that was needed was a majority, Bla Bla Bla but we were never going to get a proper negotiation anyway, a much stronger mandate to leave was needed. That was the big mistake David Cameron made but the question and parameters were set by the electoral commission and voted by parliament. It should have had some sort of safety net result say 55 45 either way, but hindsight is a wonderful thing eh.
The referendum was advisory only - the government need not have actioned the result - so have only themselves to blame. Tory radicals will kill the party - Just wait and see.
this is what was said in the leaflet
This is your decision. The
Government will implement
what you decide.
How many times did cameron et al say a vote to leave the eu means leaving the single market and customs union etc etc.
How many times have remainers claimer that people didnt know this."
That’s what happens when you believe bullshit politicians |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"And Mrs May is implementing a half in half out deal, just as the referendum result said it should be. Infact...... It's better than half in half out, it's 52% out, 48% in
So why the isn't it being actioned by these MPs so that we can all get on with our lives again without worry of losing our jobs. The leavers have what they want at a small cost to the economy as regards freedom of movement will be ended. The remainers don't want wholesale uncertainy and damage.
I can't really understand what all the fuss is about. We don't live in fricking Norway or Canada do we. We live in Little England with our own particular problem of a border which in the recent past has been a war zone. When was the last time Norway, finland or Sweden were at war. Answer...... quite a long time ago."
The question was stay or leave the result was leave,not this phoney leave, the border is just being used as a ploy by the EU and remainers to stop brexit |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
The question was stay or leave the result was leave,not this phoney leave, the border is just being used as a ploy by the EU and remainers to stop brexit"
BREXIT isn't being stopped, you have BREXIT on a plate ready and waiting, you won, get over it and enjoy / support your BREXIT. |
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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago
bournemouth |
"
The question was stay or leave the result was leave,not this phoney leave, the border is just being used as a ploy by the EU and remainers to stop brexit
BREXIT isn't being stopped, you have BREXIT on a plate ready and waiting, you won, get over it and enjoy / support your BREXIT."
we arent leaving the single market or customs union its just a phoney leave which is why remainers are supporting it |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Their fix is. Let's not give a fuck about the Irish problem. It's across the irish sea anyway so let them get on with it. Sink or swim, it's their problem. Nothing to do with me. |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"Maybe these recent events have shown how bad our system is?
Maybe now is the time to change our political system for one which works in 21st century?
Just because we have always done it that way, it doesn't mean it's the best way!"
No system is perfect,it is not the system that is the problem,the problem is the lack of suitable people running the system.
I do think we have one of the best democracys in the world.Show me a better system!!! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Referendums are the preserve of weak government, dictators and demagogues.
Referendums, often “distill complex issues into a simplistic choice, stoking a harsh type of populism.
When you’re asked to answer simply “yes” or “no” on a complicated policy question, you can’t choose the type of compromise solution that elected representatives often seek. And since governments can stage them at will, referendums tend to be deployed for the sake of political expediency, not the public good."
 This man politics. |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Referendums are the preserve of weak government, dictators and demagogues.
Referendums, often “distill complex issues into a simplistic choice, stoking a harsh type of populism.
When you’re asked to answer simply “yes” or “no” on a complicated policy question, you can’t choose the type of compromise solution that elected representatives often seek. And since governments can stage them at will, referendums tend to be deployed for the sake of political expediency, not the public good.Yes you are largely right,but Switzeland does ok,but do not know a lot about how the system is implemented to be honest"
Swiss referenda are not binding. They inform government of the national mood. That's all.
So yes, they do fine because their government and parliament still govern. |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"
The question was stay or leave the result was leave,not this phoney leave, the border is just being used as a ploy by the EU and remainers to stop brexit
BREXIT isn't being stopped, you have BREXIT on a plate ready and waiting, you won, get over it and enjoy / support your BREXIT.
we arent leaving the single market or customs union its just a phoney leave which is why remainers are supporting it"
We are leaving the European Union.
Should the UK leave the EU? Yes.
Done.
Brexit means Brexit. You won. Get over it.
Why is a simplistic approach not appropriate when applied to leavers but it is when applied to remainers? |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"Which the best example of democracy. And which is the worst.
1. The elected government implementing the result of a referendum
2. An elected parliament rejecting a vote which they feel is not on the interest of the people.
3. Asking the people their view on an issue.
"
1. If possible. However, they have interpreted the result as trying to deliver an impossible demand. All of the rights of EU membership with non of the responsibilities (plus extra money for all UK services?) - inevitable fail but best job possible achieved
2. Next best Parliament looks to see if the agreement is in the national interest and bins it if not. Comes up with a better alternative. They cannot agree. Fail.
3. Final option ask the people again with clearer options. No pretence that there is a "better" deal available.
Regardless we have lost our position in the world. The country now looks less stable, foolish and not to be trusted. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Which the best example of democracy. And which is the worst.
1. The elected government implementing the result of a referendum
2. An elected parliament rejecting a vote which they feel is not on the interest of the people.
3. Asking the people their view on an issue.
1. If possible. However, they have interpreted the result as trying to deliver an impossible demand. All of the rights of EU membership with non of the responsibilities (plus extra money for all UK services?) - inevitable fail but best job possible achieved
2. Next best Parliament looks to see if the agreement is in the national interest and bins it if not. Comes up with a better alternative. They cannot agree. Fail.
3. Final option ask the people again with clearer options. No pretence that there is a "better" deal available.
Regardless we have lost our position in the world. The country now looks less stable, foolish and not to be trusted."
The problem being is that brexit means different things to different people. The only common objective was leave which was one of the options on the ballot paper. The monster that was created by leave has engulfed them - quite simply they promised the "world " - we held all the cards win win win! Delivery was another matter - we now have the recriminations that the deal was a "remainers deal" - we had leavers in ALL they key positions with regards to brexit. Foreign Secretary, Brexit minister, Trade Dept - All ran by leavers! Yes Davis threatened "it's going to be a hell of a summer " - fizzled out quickly! But how many hours did Davis or Raab actually "negotiate"? The negotiations were done by technical negotiators not the politicians - they just signed it off!
So leavers will blame remainers for the bad deal because leave would have got a better deal! Right so when it came to it JRM & ERG couldn't even get 48 letters! Labour's stance we would have got a better deal - really ? Same negotiators (professionals) or others? As Fox is finding out it's not that easy to do what you say you can do. Just look at WTO it's difficult to get things done - maybe that's why he's backing Mays deal? |
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"Which the best example of democracy. And which is the worst.
1. The elected government implementing the result of a referendum
2. An elected parliament rejecting a vote which they feel is not on the interest of the people.
3. Asking the people their view on an issue.
1. If possible. However, they have interpreted the result as trying to deliver an impossible demand. All of the rights of EU membership with non of the responsibilities (plus extra money for all UK services?) - inevitable fail but best job possible achieved
2. Next best Parliament looks to see if the agreement is in the national interest and bins it if not. Comes up with a better alternative. They cannot agree. Fail.
3. Final option ask the people again with clearer options. No pretence that there is a "better" deal available.
Regardless we have lost our position in the world. The country now looks less stable, foolish and not to be trusted.
The problem being is that brexit means different things to different people. The only common objective was leave which was one of the options on the ballot paper. The monster that was created by leave has engulfed them - quite simply they promised the "world " - we held all the cards win win win! Delivery was another matter - we now have the recriminations that the deal was a "remainers deal" - we had leavers in ALL they key positions with regards to brexit. Foreign Secretary, Brexit minister, Trade Dept - All ran by leavers! Yes Davis threatened "it's going to be a hell of a summer " - fizzled out quickly! But how many hours did Davis or Raab actually "negotiate"? The negotiations were done by technical negotiators not the politicians - they just signed it off!
So leavers will blame remainers for the bad deal because leave would have got a better deal! Right so when it came to it JRM & ERG couldn't even get 48 letters! Labour's stance we would have got a better deal - really ? Same negotiators (professionals) or others? As Fox is finding out it's not that easy to do what you say you can do. Just look at WTO it's difficult to get things done - maybe that's why he's backing Mays deal?"
Agree..
There were some very random and baseless assumptions being put out in the run up to to the ref about how it would, should or could be done once it got going..
It was naive and it did not take in the reality of what we are in and have been a core player in writing the rules and policies of for a long time..
However this initial phase pans out it is just the start of a very detailed and complex set of treaties, arrangements etc to sort..
It does not bode well with the current lot and I don't see any of them thus far that may do better.. |
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