FabSwingers.com
 

FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > Tommy Robinson Part 2

Tommy Robinson Part 2

Jump to: Newest in thread

 

By (user no longer on site) OP     over a year ago


"“Does he need one? Whichever side of the fence you are, the fact that he's got so much support should surely mean he's saying what some people need to hear. So we label him right wing and shut him down? How does that solve anything? Surely the discussion needs to be had? Isn't ignoring the issue what's caused the surge in far right support throughout Europe?

I’ve read your other comments and I know you’re not a fan of Tommy, but I’m just replying to this one as I’d like to continue on with what you said here.

“the fact that he's got so much support should surely mean he's saying what some people need to hear”

I can understand completely why you might have come to that conclusion but respectfully, I think you are not considering some other important factors.

It’s a long established tactic used in democracies, to incite anger for the reason that angry people are the easiest to manipulate. Tommy is really a tool of the right wing establishment. They need people like him to shout and make noise and wind people up.

The whole foundation on which he pushes his and the establishment agenda from is false though. It accepts or assumes certain concepts or notions which are untrue or irrelevant to the problems they try to piggy back them onto.

To explain what I mean there - there is an acceptance by so many that the problems they or the country is facing stem from, for example - migrants, certain religions; and this idea the establishment are tolerating this at the native Brit’s expense. As Tommy is in reality a mouth piece for the establishment this is quite ironic, but that’s not my point here.

It is that we should take care to make sure our foundation of understanding or knowledge is solid before we move onto the next step of what to do in response.

This care is simply not being taken by so many. They automatically take for granted that migrants for example are the reason for their woes and move on to hating and being angry with those groups.

This is why they’re coming unstuck.

They should ask themselves who put it into their heads in the first place that this is the root cause of their issues.

The mainstream media have been pushing this anti-migrant, anti-Muslim theme for so long, that it becomes accepted by so many without the proper determination of whether it is true - and if it’s not, what could the media be up to.

Now I’d like to say here that these people who support Tommy and are complaining about the issues they are facing in life are ‘not’ crazy. They ‘are’ up against it. They ‘do’ deserve better than this and things ‘have’ been hard for a long time. But while they are facing real struggles in life and absolutely deserve something better - they are incorrectly attributing the problems they face to the wrong party or people.

It is not the migrants or Muslims that have created the issues in their lives. But the bombardment of propaganda every day from all over the mainstream media in all of its forms, suggesting that it is those groups - migrants, Muslims etc - and it’s taking a toll on them. With that level of manipulation from the corporate media, some are simply going to believe ‘there is no smoke without fire, or similar. It’s a massive mistake on their part in this case and sets them up for a fall.

The troubles they are facing, in terms of prospects or lack thereof - to their quality of life and to what they see around them, is really the fault, ironically, of the very people who are selling them the myth that it is foreigners or Muslims or whoever else.

It is the establishment and the corporations which are shitting on us. Neoliberalism is the genuine reason why they’ve been left behind. Why their communities are breaking down and people are up against it. But of course they - the ruling class and the elite, can’t admit this. They have to have a patsy - a fall guy. And the sneaky fuckers that they are with their wealth and power can kill two birds, or more, with one stone.

They can ramp up the racism and hate in society whenever necessary to push people into voting against their own interests and in the interests of the elite.

This self perpetuates the problems that these people were already facing though because in reality, it is the elite that are causing their problems.

So people like Tommy Robinson, who is just an angry little man with a chip on his shoulder, are quite useful at certain times for them. He’s a professional shit stirrer and he makes a lot of money out of it to boot.

This isn’t to say that some of the specific incidents the far right might grab hold of and push into the spotlight are not true. But these are tried, tested and perfected techniques of propaganda and manipulation - the framing of issues beyond their worth.

There are hundreds of thousands of us being killed every 2 - 3 years as a result of ideological austerity cuts from this right wing government. This has been well documented. It dwarfs the issues that Tommy is constantly raising. But while people are caught up with that, they aren’t tackling the real causes of their problems - and for all those genuine patriots who naively follow him, they are abandoning their countrymen who are being slain at a rate of a 100 a day!

Tommy is simply a right wing establishment tool. A lever to get them voting how they require to maintain the status quo for them.

Apologies for the long post here.

Edit: Typo & grammar corrections

__________________________________

A decent post , but id like to take it a step or 2 further,

For sometime now there has been a push to incite hatred ,

Governments around the world have lost the ability to control the people , we ( the people) have no fear anymore, we run up debt & can get away with not repaying it with no risk of being sent to jail

Banks are losing money hand over fist , Internet shopping has wiped out huge amounts of tax revenue , as has globalisation .

Hatred is the 1st step in creating the correct conditions for a long drawn out war where people will begin to feel fear again, the Powers that be will slowly regain control & the world will be an easier place to live again.

* *

Thats what they think anyway.

* *

As you have said , In the mean time real problems will get ignored & honestly who cares if a few million around the world die through starvation?

Yes we will throw a few quid there way as some celeb gets on telly & starts a fund raiser , but really

weve seen it all before.

I may be quite wrong , but i have a feeling its not far away."

_______________________________

(From Tommy Robinson part 1)

_______________________________

“For sometime now there has been a push to incite hatred”

Agreed.

This push has come from the corporate world.

If we take a step back though, this is all part of what is known as ‘Neoliberalism’

But it’s not new, or liberal infact.

It’s been by far the largest issue facing the world’s societies for just over 200 years now. Most of the problems people and society faces are due to neoliberalism.

Since the early 19th century, the architects of policy have been “The Merchants and Manufacturers” - a term used back then, but it still stands true today.

It is the state’s policies which shape the world we live in. It means the difference between a decent life or a terrible one.

But if it is the “merchants and manufacturers” (corporations as we would refer to them today) who direct policy, then the people suffer because corporations and people have vastly different interests as a whole.

Corporate interests are rarely, if ever, the same as the interests of society.

But corporations, with the power that their wealth affords them, can ultimately influence policy formation, change laws to protect themselves and maintain their interests mostly at society’s expense.

In the early 1800s there was an industrialisation of the press. The cost of establishing a national weekly newspaper on a profitable basis in 1837 was under a £1000 with a break even circulation of 6,200 copies. By 1867, the start up cost cost of a London daily paper was £50,000. The Sunday Express, which launched in 1918, spent over £2,000,000 before it broke even with a circulation of over 250,000.

Clearly the costs involved meant only the wealthiest individuals could do so - those merchants and manufacturers.

What this newspaper ownership allowed the wealthy to do, was essentially control public opinion through the content expressed in their papers. And that is still true to this day. Although now with the technology we have, the corporations have a wider array of media ownership than just newspapers. But it is used to the same effect - to control the opinion of society, the electorate.

Now even though if people would just stop and think - ‘who is portraying he world this way to me’ in the media, it would at least arouse some distrust that put their guard up - the unfortunate fact is in reality, that not enough people do. The majority (what matters in democracy) do not.

So media ownership gives the corporations incredible power over us in democracies. Often it is sadly the case, that it is not the will of the people at all which is achieved at an election or vote - but the will of the corporations, expressed by proxy through the people, through control of opinion.

This is the foundation of understanding we must have to even begin to tackle the problems of neoliberalism.

If we now return to Tommy Robinson, it should be understood that he is nothing special. It is not by his own merit that we know his name. It is mainly through the corporate owned mainstream media in it’s different forms that we hear of him and his exploits. They use him as just another of their many manipulation tools to control the opinion and therefore actions, of people. In the history of the last 2 centuries, you can find many Tommy Robinson’s in societies being held up by the corporate media.

The view from the corporate world today, is that the state should roll over to the needs and interests of big business. And quite often with the career driven, self-interested politicians we naively elect, they do just that.

People - society, and what they think does not matter - apart from when elections or votes of some nature are held, which is the only time we the people have any power to effect change and fight back at all.

In the last half a century there has been an ever developing shift of power from the state to the corporations. The laws which have been enacted by our ‘politicians’ have been in the most part, to give rights and powers to the business world. Corporations have rights far beyond that of a person. And to consider, that it is ultimately people who have given it to them is bizarre - but exemplifies how effective the media is at controlling public thought and opinion.

So the diehard Tommy fans do have their problems in life. They are not crazy. Bad things are happening. But they are absolutely not caused by the people they or Tommy think it is.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"“Does he need one? Whichever side of the fence you are, the fact that he's got so much support should surely mean he's saying what some people need to hear. So we label him right wing and shut him down? How does that solve anything? Surely the discussion needs to be had? Isn't ignoring the issue what's caused the surge in far right support throughout Europe?

I’ve read your other comments and I know you’re not a fan of Tommy, but I’m just replying to this one as I’d like to continue on with what you said here.

“the fact that he's got so much support should surely mean he's saying what some people need to hear”

I can understand completely why you might have come to that conclusion but respectfully, I think you are not considering some other important factors.

It’s a long established tactic used in democracies, to incite anger for the reason that angry people are the easiest to manipulate. Tommy is really a tool of the right wing establishment. They need people like him to shout and make noise and wind people up.

The whole foundation on which he pushes his and the establishment agenda from is false though. It accepts or assumes certain concepts or notions which are untrue or irrelevant to the problems they try to piggy back them onto.

To explain what I mean there - there is an acceptance by so many that the problems they or the country is facing stem from, for example - migrants, certain religions; and this idea the establishment are tolerating this at the native Brit’s expense. As Tommy is in reality a mouth piece for the establishment this is quite ironic, but that’s not my point here.

It is that we should take care to make sure our foundation of understanding or knowledge is solid before we move onto the next step of what to do in response.

This care is simply not being taken by so many. They automatically take for granted that migrants for example are the reason for their woes and move on to hating and being angry with those groups.

This is why they’re coming unstuck.

They should ask themselves who put it into their heads in the first place that this is the root cause of their issues.

The mainstream media have been pushing this anti-migrant, anti-Muslim theme for so long, that it becomes accepted by so many without the proper determination of whether it is true - and if it’s not, what could the media be up to.

Now I’d like to say here that these people who support Tommy and are complaining about the issues they are facing in life are ‘not’ crazy. They ‘are’ up against it. They ‘do’ deserve better than this and things ‘have’ been hard for a long time. But while they are facing real struggles in life and absolutely deserve something better - they are incorrectly attributing the problems they face to the wrong party or people.

It is not the migrants or Muslims that have created the issues in their lives. But the bombardment of propaganda every day from all over the mainstream media in all of its forms, suggesting that it is those groups - migrants, Muslims etc - and it’s taking a toll on them. With that level of manipulation from the corporate media, some are simply going to believe ‘there is no smoke without fire, or similar. It’s a massive mistake on their part in this case and sets them up for a fall.

The troubles they are facing, in terms of prospects or lack thereof - to their quality of life and to what they see around them, is really the fault, ironically, of the very people who are selling them the myth that it is foreigners or Muslims or whoever else.

It is the establishment and the corporations which are shitting on us. Neoliberalism is the genuine reason why they’ve been left behind. Why their communities are breaking down and people are up against it. But of course they - the ruling class and the elite, can’t admit this. They have to have a patsy - a fall guy. And the sneaky fuckers that they are with their wealth and power can kill two birds, or more, with one stone.

They can ramp up the racism and hate in society whenever necessary to push people into voting against their own interests and in the interests of the elite.

This self perpetuates the problems that these people were already facing though because in reality, it is the elite that are causing their problems.

So people like Tommy Robinson, who is just an angry little man with a chip on his shoulder, are quite useful at certain times for them. He’s a professional shit stirrer and he makes a lot of money out of it to boot.

This isn’t to say that some of the specific incidents the far right might grab hold of and push into the spotlight are not true. But these are tried, tested and perfected techniques of propaganda and manipulation - the framing of issues beyond their worth.

There are hundreds of thousands of us being killed every 2 - 3 years as a result of ideological austerity cuts from this right wing government. This has been well documented. It dwarfs the issues that Tommy is constantly raising. But while people are caught up with that, they aren’t tackling the real causes of their problems - and for all those genuine patriots who naively follow him, they are abandoning their countrymen who are being slain at a rate of a 100 a day!

Tommy is simply a right wing establishment tool. A lever to get them voting how they require to maintain the status quo for them.

Apologies for the long post here.

Edit: Typo & grammar corrections

__________________________________

A decent post , but id like to take it a step or 2 further,

For sometime now there has been a push to incite hatred ,

Governments around the world have lost the ability to control the people , we ( the people) have no fear anymore, we run up debt & can get away with not repaying it with no risk of being sent to jail

Banks are losing money hand over fist , Internet shopping has wiped out huge amounts of tax revenue , as has globalisation .

Hatred is the 1st step in creating the correct conditions for a long drawn out war where people will begin to feel fear again, the Powers that be will slowly regain control & the world will be an easier place to live again.

* *

Thats what they think anyway.

* *

As you have said , In the mean time real problems will get ignored & honestly who cares if a few million around the world die through starvation?

Yes we will throw a few quid there way as some celeb gets on telly & starts a fund raiser , but really

weve seen it all before.

I may be quite wrong , but i have a feeling its not far away.

_______________________________

(From Tommy Robinson part 1)

_______________________________

“For sometime now there has been a push to incite hatred”

Agreed.

This push has come from the corporate world.

If we take a step back though, this is all part of what is known as ‘Neoliberalism’

But it’s not new, or liberal infact.

It’s been by far the largest issue facing the world’s societies for just over 200 years now. Most of the problems people and society faces are due to neoliberalism.

Since the early 19th century, the architects of policy have been “The Merchants and Manufacturers” - a term used back then, but it still stands true today.

It is the state’s policies which shape the world we live in. It means the difference between a decent life or a terrible one.

But if it is the “merchants and manufacturers” (corporations as we would refer to them today) who direct policy, then the people suffer because corporations and people have vastly different interests as a whole.

Corporate interests are rarely, if ever, the same as the interests of society.

But corporations, with the power that their wealth affords them, can ultimately influence policy formation, change laws to protect themselves and maintain their interests mostly at society’s expense.

In the early 1800s there was an industrialisation of the press. The cost of establishing a national weekly newspaper on a profitable basis in 1837 was under a £1000 with a break even circulation of 6,200 copies. By 1867, the start up cost cost of a London daily paper was £50,000. The Sunday Express, which launched in 1918, spent over £2,000,000 before it broke even with a circulation of over 250,000.

Clearly the costs involved meant only the wealthiest individuals could do so - those merchants and manufacturers.

What this newspaper ownership allowed the wealthy to do, was essentially control public opinion through the content expressed in their papers. And that is still true to this day. Although now with the technology we have, the corporations have a wider array of media ownership than just newspapers. But it is used to the same effect - to control the opinion of society, the electorate.

Now even though if people would just stop and think - ‘who is portraying he world this way to me’ in the media, it would at least arouse some distrust that put their guard up - the unfortunate fact is in reality, that not enough people do. The majority (what matters in democracy) do not.

So media ownership gives the corporations incredible power over us in democracies. Often it is sadly the case, that it is not the will of the people at all which is achieved at an election or vote - but the will of the corporations, expressed by proxy through the people, through control of opinion.

This is the foundation of understanding we must have to even begin to tackle the problems of neoliberalism.

If we now return to Tommy Robinson, it should be understood that he is nothing special. It is not by his own merit that we know his name. It is mainly through the corporate owned mainstream media in it’s different forms that we hear of him and his exploits. They use him as just another of their many manipulation tools to control the opinion and therefore actions, of people. In the history of the last 2 centuries, you can find many Tommy Robinson’s in societies being held up by the corporate media.

The view from the corporate world today, is that the state should roll over to the needs and interests of big business. And quite often with the career driven, self-interested politicians we naively elect, they do just that.

People - society, and what they think does not matter - apart from when elections or votes of some nature are held, which is the only time we the people have any power to effect change and fight back at all.

In the last half a century there has been an ever developing shift of power from the state to the corporations. The laws which have been enacted by our ‘politicians’ have been in the most part, to give rights and powers to the business world. Corporations have rights far beyond that of a person. And to consider, that it is ultimately people who have given it to them is bizarre - but exemplifies how effective the media is at controlling public thought and opinion.

So the diehard Tommy fans do have their problems in life. They are not crazy. Bad things are happening. But they are absolutely not caused by the people they or Tommy think it is.

"

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *asyukMan  over a year ago

West London


"“Does he need one? Whichever side of the fence you are, the fact that he's got so much support should surely mean he's saying what some people need to hear. So we label him right wing and shut him down? How does that solve anything? Surely the discussion needs to be had? Isn't ignoring the issue what's caused the surge in far right support throughout Europe?

I’ve read your other comments and I know you’re not a fan of Tommy, but I’m just replying to this one as I’d like to continue on with what you said here.

“the fact that he's got so much support should surely mean he's saying what some people need to hear”

I can understand completely why you might have come to that conclusion but respectfully, I think you are not considering some other important factors.

It’s a long established tactic used in democracies, to incite anger for the reason that angry people are the easiest to manipulate. Tommy is really a tool of the right wing establishment. They need people like him to shout and make noise and wind people up.

The whole foundation on which he pushes his and the establishment agenda from is false though. It accepts or assumes certain concepts or notions which are untrue or irrelevant to the problems they try to piggy back them onto.

To explain what I mean there - there is an acceptance by so many that the problems they or the country is facing stem from, for example - migrants, certain religions; and this idea the establishment are tolerating this at the native Brit’s expense. As Tommy is in reality a mouth piece for the establishment this is quite ironic, but that’s not my point here.

It is that we should take care to make sure our foundation of understanding or knowledge is solid before we move onto the next step of what to do in response.

This care is simply not being taken by so many. They automatically take for granted that migrants for example are the reason for their woes and move on to hating and being angry with those groups.

This is why they’re coming unstuck.

They should ask themselves who put it into their heads in the first place that this is the root cause of their issues.

The mainstream media have been pushing this anti-migrant, anti-Muslim theme for so long, that it becomes accepted by so many without the proper determination of whether it is true - and if it’s not, what could the media be up to.

Now I’d like to say here that these people who support Tommy and are complaining about the issues they are facing in life are ‘not’ crazy. They ‘are’ up against it. They ‘do’ deserve better than this and things ‘have’ been hard for a long time. But while they are facing real struggles in life and absolutely deserve something better - they are incorrectly attributing the problems they face to the wrong party or people.

It is not the migrants or Muslims that have created the issues in their lives. But the bombardment of propaganda every day from all over the mainstream media in all of its forms, suggesting that it is those groups - migrants, Muslims etc - and it’s taking a toll on them. With that level of manipulation from the corporate media, some are simply going to believe ‘there is no smoke without fire, or similar. It’s a massive mistake on their part in this case and sets them up for a fall.

The troubles they are facing, in terms of prospects or lack thereof - to their quality of life and to what they see around them, is really the fault, ironically, of the very people who are selling them the myth that it is foreigners or Muslims or whoever else.

It is the establishment and the corporations which are shitting on us. Neoliberalism is the genuine reason why they’ve been left behind. Why their communities are breaking down and people are up against it. But of course they - the ruling class and the elite, can’t admit this. They have to have a patsy - a fall guy. And the sneaky fuckers that they are with their wealth and power can kill two birds, or more, with one stone.

They can ramp up the racism and hate in society whenever necessary to push people into voting against their own interests and in the interests of the elite.

This self perpetuates the problems that these people were already facing though because in reality, it is the elite that are causing their problems.

So people like Tommy Robinson, who is just an angry little man with a chip on his shoulder, are quite useful at certain times for them. He’s a professional shit stirrer and he makes a lot of money out of it to boot.

This isn’t to say that some of the specific incidents the far right might grab hold of and push into the spotlight are not true. But these are tried, tested and perfected techniques of propaganda and manipulation - the framing of issues beyond their worth.

There are hundreds of thousands of us being killed every 2 - 3 years as a result of ideological austerity cuts from this right wing government. This has been well documented. It dwarfs the issues that Tommy is constantly raising. But while people are caught up with that, they aren’t tackling the real causes of their problems - and for all those genuine patriots who naively follow him, they are abandoning their countrymen who are being slain at a rate of a 100 a day!

Tommy is simply a right wing establishment tool. A lever to get them voting how they require to maintain the status quo for them.

Apologies for the long post here.

Edit: Typo & grammar corrections

__________________________________

A decent post , but id like to take it a step or 2 further,

For sometime now there has been a push to incite hatred ,

Governments around the world have lost the ability to control the people , we ( the people) have no fear anymore, we run up debt & can get away with not repaying it with no risk of being sent to jail

Banks are losing money hand over fist , Internet shopping has wiped out huge amounts of tax revenue , as has globalisation .

Hatred is the 1st step in creating the correct conditions for a long drawn out war where people will begin to feel fear again, the Powers that be will slowly regain control & the world will be an easier place to live again.

* *

Thats what they think anyway.

* *

As you have said , In the mean time real problems will get ignored & honestly who cares if a few million around the world die through starvation?

Yes we will throw a few quid there way as some celeb gets on telly & starts a fund raiser , but really

weve seen it all before.

I may be quite wrong , but i have a feeling its not far away.

_______________________________

(From Tommy Robinson part 1)

_______________________________

“For sometime now there has been a push to incite hatred”

Agreed.

This push has come from the corporate world.

If we take a step back though, this is all part of what is known as ‘Neoliberalism’

But it’s not new, or liberal infact.

It’s been by far the largest issue facing the world’s societies for just over 200 years now. Most of the problems people and society faces are due to neoliberalism.

Since the early 19th century, the architects of policy have been “The Merchants and Manufacturers” - a term used back then, but it still stands true today.

It is the state’s policies which shape the world we live in. It means the difference between a decent life or a terrible one.

But if it is the “merchants and manufacturers” (corporations as we would refer to them today) who direct policy, then the people suffer because corporations and people have vastly different interests as a whole.

Corporate interests are rarely, if ever, the same as the interests of society.

But corporations, with the power that their wealth affords them, can ultimately influence policy formation, change laws to protect themselves and maintain their interests mostly at society’s expense.

In the early 1800s there was an industrialisation of the press. The cost of establishing a national weekly newspaper on a profitable basis in 1837 was under a £1000 with a break even circulation of 6,200 copies. By 1867, the start up cost cost of a London daily paper was £50,000. The Sunday Express, which launched in 1918, spent over £2,000,000 before it broke even with a circulation of over 250,000.

Clearly the costs involved meant only the wealthiest individuals could do so - those merchants and manufacturers.

What this newspaper ownership allowed the wealthy to do, was essentially control public opinion through the content expressed in their papers. And that is still true to this day. Although now with the technology we have, the corporations have a wider array of media ownership than just newspapers. But it is used to the same effect - to control the opinion of society, the electorate.

Now even though if people would just stop and think - ‘who is portraying he world this way to me’ in the media, it would at least arouse some distrust that put their guard up - the unfortunate fact is in reality, that not enough people do. The majority (what matters in democracy) do not.

So media ownership gives the corporations incredible power over us in democracies. Often it is sadly the case, that it is not the will of the people at all which is achieved at an election or vote - but the will of the corporations, expressed by proxy through the people, through control of opinion.

This is the foundation of understanding we must have to even begin to tackle the problems of neoliberalism.

If we now return to Tommy Robinson, it should be understood that he is nothing special. It is not by his own merit that we know his name. It is mainly through the corporate owned mainstream media in it’s different forms that we hear of him and his exploits. They use him as just another of their many manipulation tools to control the opinion and therefore actions, of people. In the history of the last 2 centuries, you can find many Tommy Robinson’s in societies being held up by the corporate media.

The view from the corporate world today, is that the state should roll over to the needs and interests of big business. And quite often with the career driven, self-interested politicians we naively elect, they do just that.

People - society, and what they think does not matter - apart from when elections or votes of some nature are held, which is the only time we the people have any power to effect change and fight back at all.

In the last half a century there has been an ever developing shift of power from the state to the corporations. The laws which have been enacted by our ‘politicians’ have been in the most part, to give rights and powers to the business world. Corporations have rights far beyond that of a person. And to consider, that it is ultimately people who have given it to them is bizarre - but exemplifies how effective the media is at controlling public thought and opinion.

So the diehard Tommy fans do have their problems in life. They are not crazy. Bad things are happening. But they are absolutely not caused by the people they or Tommy think it is.

"

We can agree on some things then

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *laytimenowMan  over a year ago

Essex


"“Does he need one? Whichever side of the fence you are, the fact that he's got so much support should surely mean he's saying what some people need to hear. So we label him right wing and shut him down? How does that solve anything? Surely the discussion needs to be had? Isn't ignoring the issue what's caused the surge in far right support throughout Europe?

I’ve read your other comments and I know you’re not a fan of Tommy, but I’m just replying to this one as I’d like to continue on with what you said here.

“the fact that he's got so much support should surely mean he's saying what some people need to hear”

I can understand completely why you might have come to that conclusion but respectfully, I think you are not considering some other important factors.

It’s a long established tactic used in democracies, to incite anger for the reason that angry people are the easiest to manipulate. Tommy is really a tool of the right wing establishment. They need people like him to shout and make noise and wind people up.

The whole foundation on which he pushes his and the establishment agenda from is false though. It accepts or assumes certain concepts or notions which are untrue or irrelevant to the problems they try to piggy back them onto.

To explain what I mean there - there is an acceptance by so many that the problems they or the country is facing stem from, for example - migrants, certain religions; and this idea the establishment are tolerating this at the native Brit’s expense. As Tommy is in reality a mouth piece for the establishment this is quite ironic, but that’s not my point here.

It is that we should take care to make sure our foundation of understanding or knowledge is solid before we move onto the next step of what to do in response.

This care is simply not being taken by so many. They automatically take for granted that migrants for example are the reason for their woes and move on to hating and being angry with those groups.

This is why they’re coming unstuck.

They should ask themselves who put it into their heads in the first place that this is the root cause of their issues.

The mainstream media have been pushing this anti-migrant, anti-Muslim theme for so long, that it becomes accepted by so many without the proper determination of whether it is true - and if it’s not, what could the media be up to.

Now I’d like to say here that these people who support Tommy and are complaining about the issues they are facing in life are ‘not’ crazy. They ‘are’ up against it. They ‘do’ deserve better than this and things ‘have’ been hard for a long time. But while they are facing real struggles in life and absolutely deserve something better - they are incorrectly attributing the problems they face to the wrong party or people.

It is not the migrants or Muslims that have created the issues in their lives. But the bombardment of propaganda every day from all over the mainstream media in all of its forms, suggesting that it is those groups - migrants, Muslims etc - and it’s taking a toll on them. With that level of manipulation from the corporate media, some are simply going to believe ‘there is no smoke without fire, or similar. It’s a massive mistake on their part in this case and sets them up for a fall.

The troubles they are facing, in terms of prospects or lack thereof - to their quality of life and to what they see around them, is really the fault, ironically, of the very people who are selling them the myth that it is foreigners or Muslims or whoever else.

It is the establishment and the corporations which are shitting on us. Neoliberalism is the genuine reason why they’ve been left behind. Why their communities are breaking down and people are up against it. But of course they - the ruling class and the elite, can’t admit this. They have to have a patsy - a fall guy. And the sneaky fuckers that they are with their wealth and power can kill two birds, or more, with one stone.

They can ramp up the racism and hate in society whenever necessary to push people into voting against their own interests and in the interests of the elite.

This self perpetuates the problems that these people were already facing though because in reality, it is the elite that are causing their problems.

So people like Tommy Robinson, who is just an angry little man with a chip on his shoulder, are quite useful at certain times for them. He’s a professional shit stirrer and he makes a lot of money out of it to boot.

This isn’t to say that some of the specific incidents the far right might grab hold of and push into the spotlight are not true. But these are tried, tested and perfected techniques of propaganda and manipulation - the framing of issues beyond their worth.

There are hundreds of thousands of us being killed every 2 - 3 years as a result of ideological austerity cuts from this right wing government. This has been well documented. It dwarfs the issues that Tommy is constantly raising. But while people are caught up with that, they aren’t tackling the real causes of their problems - and for all those genuine patriots who naively follow him, they are abandoning their countrymen who are being slain at a rate of a 100 a day!

Tommy is simply a right wing establishment tool. A lever to get them voting how they require to maintain the status quo for them.

Apologies for the long post here.

Edit: Typo & grammar corrections

__________________________________

A decent post , but id like to take it a step or 2 further,

For sometime now there has been a push to incite hatred ,

Governments around the world have lost the ability to control the people , we ( the people) have no fear anymore, we run up debt & can get away with not repaying it with no risk of being sent to jail

Banks are losing money hand over fist , Internet shopping has wiped out huge amounts of tax revenue , as has globalisation .

Hatred is the 1st step in creating the correct conditions for a long drawn out war where people will begin to feel fear again, the Powers that be will slowly regain control & the world will be an easier place to live again.

* *

Thats what they think anyway.

* *

As you have said , In the mean time real problems will get ignored & honestly who cares if a few million around the world die through starvation?

Yes we will throw a few quid there way as some celeb gets on telly & starts a fund raiser , but really

weve seen it all before.

I may be quite wrong , but i have a feeling its not far away.

_______________________________

(From Tommy Robinson part 1)

_______________________________

“For sometime now there has been a push to incite hatred”

Agreed.

This push has come from the corporate world.

If we take a step back though, this is all part of what is known as ‘Neoliberalism’

But it’s not new, or liberal infact.

It’s been by far the largest issue facing the world’s societies for just over 200 years now. Most of the problems people and society faces are due to neoliberalism.

Since the early 19th century, the architects of policy have been “The Merchants and Manufacturers” - a term used back then, but it still stands true today.

It is the state’s policies which shape the world we live in. It means the difference between a decent life or a terrible one.

But if it is the “merchants and manufacturers” (corporations as we would refer to them today) who direct policy, then the people suffer because corporations and people have vastly different interests as a whole.

Corporate interests are rarely, if ever, the same as the interests of society.

But corporations, with the power that their wealth affords them, can ultimately influence policy formation, change laws to protect themselves and maintain their interests mostly at society’s expense.

In the early 1800s there was an industrialisation of the press. The cost of establishing a national weekly newspaper on a profitable basis in 1837 was under a £1000 with a break even circulation of 6,200 copies. By 1867, the start up cost cost of a London daily paper was £50,000. The Sunday Express, which launched in 1918, spent over £2,000,000 before it broke even with a circulation of over 250,000.

Clearly the costs involved meant only the wealthiest individuals could do so - those merchants and manufacturers.

What this newspaper ownership allowed the wealthy to do, was essentially control public opinion through the content expressed in their papers. And that is still true to this day. Although now with the technology we have, the corporations have a wider array of media ownership than just newspapers. But it is used to the same effect - to control the opinion of society, the electorate.

Now even though if people would just stop and think - ‘who is portraying he world this way to me’ in the media, it would at least arouse some distrust that put their guard up - the unfortunate fact is in reality, that not enough people do. The majority (what matters in democracy) do not.

So media ownership gives the corporations incredible power over us in democracies. Often it is sadly the case, that it is not the will of the people at all which is achieved at an election or vote - but the will of the corporations, expressed by proxy through the people, through control of opinion.

This is the foundation of understanding we must have to even begin to tackle the problems of neoliberalism.

If we now return to Tommy Robinson, it should be understood that he is nothing special. It is not by his own merit that we know his name. It is mainly through the corporate owned mainstream media in it’s different forms that we hear of him and his exploits. They use him as just another of their many manipulation tools to control the opinion and therefore actions, of people. In the history of the last 2 centuries, you can find many Tommy Robinson’s in societies being held up by the corporate media.

The view from the corporate world today, is that the state should roll over to the needs and interests of big business. And quite often with the career driven, self-interested politicians we naively elect, they do just that.

People - society, and what they think does not matter - apart from when elections or votes of some nature are held, which is the only time we the people have any power to effect change and fight back at all.

In the last half a century there has been an ever developing shift of power from the state to the corporations. The laws which have been enacted by our ‘politicians’ have been in the most part, to give rights and powers to the business world. Corporations have rights far beyond that of a person. And to consider, that it is ultimately people who have given it to them is bizarre - but exemplifies how effective the media is at controlling public thought and opinion.

So the diehard Tommy fans do have their problems in life. They are not crazy. Bad things are happening. But they are absolutely not caused by the people they or Tommy think it is.

"

_____________________________________________________________

Wherever it is coming from, it's basic function is to create fear amongst the General Public .

The world is Skint , debt is everywhere with no way of making great money, without expense & freedom of will.

War is through History the 1 guaranteed way to make money for all involved,

Governments, Banks, Businesses & Media.

Look back through History its clear what happens to Economies during War. The People stop questioning & do there duty at home & abroad & the biggest of Participants can make vast fortunes .

(Look at the The U.S bankrupting the U.K during WW2 as an example ).

Tools of Hatred are used to stir up anger

Tommy Robinson on 1 side & say Owen Jones on the other .

Both for very different reasons of course , but ultimately unwittingly jumped upon by the opposite sides to create the anger for people to be willing to risk lives for the fight.

Interesting times are upon us .

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By (user no longer on site) OP     over a year ago


"“Does he need one? Whichever side of the fence you are, the fact that he's got so much support should surely mean he's saying what some people need to hear. So we label him right wing and shut him down? How does that solve anything? Surely the discussion needs to be had? Isn't ignoring the issue what's caused the surge in far right support throughout Europe?

I’ve read your other comments and I know you’re not a fan of Tommy, but I’m just replying to this one as I’d like to continue on with what you said here.

“the fact that he's got so much support should surely mean he's saying what some people need to hear”

I can understand completely why you might have come to that conclusion but respectfully, I think you are not considering some other important factors.

It’s a long established tactic used in democracies, to incite anger for the reason that angry people are the easiest to manipulate. Tommy is really a tool of the right wing establishment. They need people like him to shout and make noise and wind people up.

The whole foundation on which he pushes his and the establishment agenda from is false though. It accepts or assumes certain concepts or notions which are untrue or irrelevant to the problems they try to piggy back them onto.

To explain what I mean there - there is an acceptance by so many that the problems they or the country is facing stem from, for example - migrants, certain religions; and this idea the establishment are tolerating this at the native Brit’s expense. As Tommy is in reality a mouth piece for the establishment this is quite ironic, but that’s not my point here.

It is that we should take care to make sure our foundation of understanding or knowledge is solid before we move onto the next step of what to do in response.

This care is simply not being taken by so many. They automatically take for granted that migrants for example are the reason for their woes and move on to hating and being angry with those groups.

This is why they’re coming unstuck.

They should ask themselves who put it into their heads in the first place that this is the root cause of their issues.

The mainstream media have been pushing this anti-migrant, anti-Muslim theme for so long, that it becomes accepted by so many without the proper determination of whether it is true - and if it’s not, what could the media be up to.

Now I’d like to say here that these people who support Tommy and are complaining about the issues they are facing in life are ‘not’ crazy. They ‘are’ up against it. They ‘do’ deserve better than this and things ‘have’ been hard for a long time. But while they are facing real struggles in life and absolutely deserve something better - they are incorrectly attributing the problems they face to the wrong party or people.

It is not the migrants or Muslims that have created the issues in their lives. But the bombardment of propaganda every day from all over the mainstream media in all of its forms, suggesting that it is those groups - migrants, Muslims etc - and it’s taking a toll on them. With that level of manipulation from the corporate media, some are simply going to believe ‘there is no smoke without fire, or similar. It’s a massive mistake on their part in this case and sets them up for a fall.

The troubles they are facing, in terms of prospects or lack thereof - to their quality of life and to what they see around them, is really the fault, ironically, of the very people who are selling them the myth that it is foreigners or Muslims or whoever else.

It is the establishment and the corporations which are shitting on us. Neoliberalism is the genuine reason why they’ve been left behind. Why their communities are breaking down and people are up against it. But of course they - the ruling class and the elite, can’t admit this. They have to have a patsy - a fall guy. And the sneaky fuckers that they are with their wealth and power can kill two birds, or more, with one stone.

They can ramp up the racism and hate in society whenever necessary to push people into voting against their own interests and in the interests of the elite.

This self perpetuates the problems that these people were already facing though because in reality, it is the elite that are causing their problems.

So people like Tommy Robinson, who is just an angry little man with a chip on his shoulder, are quite useful at certain times for them. He’s a professional shit stirrer and he makes a lot of money out of it to boot.

This isn’t to say that some of the specific incidents the far right might grab hold of and push into the spotlight are not true. But these are tried, tested and perfected techniques of propaganda and manipulation - the framing of issues beyond their worth.

There are hundreds of thousands of us being killed every 2 - 3 years as a result of ideological austerity cuts from this right wing government. This has been well documented. It dwarfs the issues that Tommy is constantly raising. But while people are caught up with that, they aren’t tackling the real causes of their problems - and for all those genuine patriots who naively follow him, they are abandoning their countrymen who are being slain at a rate of a 100 a day!

Tommy is simply a right wing establishment tool. A lever to get them voting how they require to maintain the status quo for them.

Apologies for the long post here.

Edit: Typo & grammar corrections

__________________________________

A decent post , but id like to take it a step or 2 further,

For sometime now there has been a push to incite hatred ,

Governments around the world have lost the ability to control the people , we ( the people) have no fear anymore, we run up debt & can get away with not repaying it with no risk of being sent to jail

Banks are losing money hand over fist , Internet shopping has wiped out huge amounts of tax revenue , as has globalisation .

Hatred is the 1st step in creating the correct conditions for a long drawn out war where people will begin to feel fear again, the Powers that be will slowly regain control & the world will be an easier place to live again.

* *

Thats what they think anyway.

* *

As you have said , In the mean time real problems will get ignored & honestly who cares if a few million around the world die through starvation?

Yes we will throw a few quid there way as some celeb gets on telly & starts a fund raiser , but really

weve seen it all before.

I may be quite wrong , but i have a feeling its not far away.

_______________________________

(From Tommy Robinson part 1)

_______________________________

“For sometime now there has been a push to incite hatred”

Agreed.

This push has come from the corporate world.

If we take a step back though, this is all part of what is known as ‘Neoliberalism’

But it’s not new, or liberal infact.

It’s been by far the largest issue facing the world’s societies for just over 200 years now. Most of the problems people and society faces are due to neoliberalism.

Since the early 19th century, the architects of policy have been “The Merchants and Manufacturers” - a term used back then, but it still stands true today.

It is the state’s policies which shape the world we live in. It means the difference between a decent life or a terrible one.

But if it is the “merchants and manufacturers” (corporations as we would refer to them today) who direct policy, then the people suffer because corporations and people have vastly different interests as a whole.

Corporate interests are rarely, if ever, the same as the interests of society.

But corporations, with the power that their wealth affords them, can ultimately influence policy formation, change laws to protect themselves and maintain their interests mostly at society’s expense.

In the early 1800s there was an industrialisation of the press. The cost of establishing a national weekly newspaper on a profitable basis in 1837 was under a £1000 with a break even circulation of 6,200 copies. By 1867, the start up cost cost of a London daily paper was £50,000. The Sunday Express, which launched in 1918, spent over £2,000,000 before it broke even with a circulation of over 250,000.

Clearly the costs involved meant only the wealthiest individuals could do so - those merchants and manufacturers.

What this newspaper ownership allowed the wealthy to do, was essentially control public opinion through the content expressed in their papers. And that is still true to this day. Although now with the technology we have, the corporations have a wider array of media ownership than just newspapers. But it is used to the same effect - to control the opinion of society, the electorate.

Now even though if people would just stop and think - ‘who is portraying he world this way to me’ in the media, it would at least arouse some distrust that put their guard up - the unfortunate fact is in reality, that not enough people do. The majority (what matters in democracy) do not.

So media ownership gives the corporations incredible power over us in democracies. Often it is sadly the case, that it is not the will of the people at all which is achieved at an election or vote - but the will of the corporations, expressed by proxy through the people, through control of opinion.

This is the foundation of understanding we must have to even begin to tackle the problems of neoliberalism.

If we now return to Tommy Robinson, it should be understood that he is nothing special. It is not by his own merit that we know his name. It is mainly through the corporate owned mainstream media in it’s different forms that we hear of him and his exploits. They use him as just another of their many manipulation tools to control the opinion and therefore actions, of people. In the history of the last 2 centuries, you can find many Tommy Robinson’s in societies being held up by the corporate media.

The view from the corporate world today, is that the state should roll over to the needs and interests of big business. And quite often with the career driven, self-interested politicians we naively elect, they do just that.

People - society, and what they think does not matter - apart from when elections or votes of some nature are held, which is the only time we the people have any power to effect change and fight back at all.

In the last half a century there has been an ever developing shift of power from the state to the corporations. The laws which have been enacted by our ‘politicians’ have been in the most part, to give rights and powers to the business world. Corporations have rights far beyond that of a person. And to consider, that it is ultimately people who have given it to them is bizarre - but exemplifies how effective the media is at controlling public thought and opinion.

So the diehard Tommy fans do have their problems in life. They are not crazy. Bad things are happening. But they are absolutely not caused by the people they or Tommy think it is.

_____________________________________________________________

Wherever it is coming from, it's basic function is to create fear amongst the General Public .

The world is Skint , debt is everywhere with no way of making great money, without expense & freedom of will.

War is through History the 1 guaranteed way to make money for all involved,

Governments, Banks, Businesses & Media.

Look back through History its clear what happens to Economies during War. The People stop questioning & do there duty at home & abroad & the biggest of Participants can make vast fortunes .

(Look at the The U.S bankrupting the U.K during WW2 as an example ).

Tools of Hatred are used to stir up anger

Tommy Robinson on 1 side & say Owen Jones on the other .

Both for very different reasons of course , but ultimately unwittingly jumped upon by the opposite sides to create the anger for people to be willing to risk lives for the fight.

Interesting times are upon us ."

Scared, angry and easily mislead. The so-called elite have their manipulations of society down to a fine art don’t they.

War is an extension of trade. It only exists to attain wealth. Yes after WW2 the US owned over half the world’s money, so it worked out great for them. They’d love to be in that situation again I imagine but how to do it. Perhaps if they could only weaken Europe and Britain somehow again...

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *ara JTV/TS  over a year ago

Bristol East

What do his supporters intend to do about Nottingham City and Nottinghamshire County councils?

Hundreds of children sexually abused over five decades.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *ercuryMan  over a year ago

Grantham


"What do his supporters intend to do about Nottingham City and Nottinghamshire County councils?

Hundreds of children sexually abused over five decades.

"

And many jailed for the abuse. An historical catalogue of shame on both organisations.

Absolutely no need for Tommy Robinson or his supporters to get involved. Many issues still need to be resolved.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *ara JTV/TS  over a year ago

Bristol East


"

Absolutely no need for Tommy Robinson or his supporters to get involved. "

Why not? I thought they campaigned against sexual exploitation of vulnerable children. Am I wrong?

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"

Absolutely no need for Tommy Robinson or his supporters to get involved.

Why not? I thought they campaigned against sexual exploitation of vulnerable children. Am I wrong?

"

.

How many supporters does he have?

How many have you polled to find out what they want?

What was the results?

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *ara JTV/TS  over a year ago

Bristol East


"

Absolutely no need for Tommy Robinson or his supporters to get involved.

Why not? I thought they campaigned against sexual exploitation of vulnerable children. Am I wrong?

.

How many supporters does he have?

How many have you polled to find out what they want?

What was the results?

"

Quite a few on here who get all agitated about the sexual exploitation of vulnerable children, judging by the acres of posts.

That's why I asked the question.

Are you one of them?

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *retty GoodMan  over a year ago

Cardiff Bay


"

Absolutely no need for Tommy Robinson or his supporters to get involved.

Why not? I thought they campaigned against sexual exploitation of vulnerable children. Am I wrong?

.

How many supporters does he have?

How many have you polled to find out what they want?

What was the results?

Quite a few on here who get all agitated about the sexual exploitation of vulnerable children, judging by the acres of posts.

That's why I asked the question.

Are you one of them?

"

Isn’t everyone against the sexual exploitation of vulnerable children ?

Are you not ?

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Isn't Tommy being chased around the showers as we type by muslamic gangs.

I doubt he's got time to pick up the soap let alone help with decades of child abuse..

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *illwill69uMan  over a year ago

moston

Not sure what the point is here...

To be clear we have sub judice laws designed to ensure that trials are as fair as possible for all. It does not matter how outrageous the crime, the accused has the right to a fair trial. Tommy Robinson has flouted these laws on multiple occasions and regardless of his reasons he has ignored multiple warnings by courts that if he did not desist he would be sent to prison for his contempt's of court. He now has to face the consequences of his actions. That is all there is to it, any attempt to change the narrative is noting more than a deflection from the simple fact that he is not above the law and must accept his punishment.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"

Absolutely no need for Tommy Robinson or his supporters to get involved.

Why not? I thought they campaigned against sexual exploitation of vulnerable children. Am I wrong?

.

How many supporters does he have?

How many have you polled to find out what they want?

What was the results?

Quite a few on here who get all agitated about the sexual exploitation of vulnerable children, judging by the acres of posts.

That's why I asked the question.

Are you one of them?

"

.

Quite a few get agitated at paedophilia,wow,I didn't realise I was dealing in this sort of in-depth analysis.

I'm out, it's way over my pay grade

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *ild_oatsMan  over a year ago

the land of saints & sinners


"Not sure what the point is here...

To be clear we have sub judice laws designed to ensure that trials are as fair as possible for all. It does not matter how outrageous the crime, the accused has the right to a fair trial. Tommy Robinson has flouted these laws on multiple occasions and regardless of his reasons he has ignored multiple warnings by courts that if he did not desist he would be sent to prison for his contempt's of court. He now has to face the consequences of his actions. That is all there is to it, any attempt to change the narrative is noting more than a deflection from the simple fact that he is not above the law and must accept his punishment."

Could not have explained it better...

It saddens me that this thread has persisted so long. We are providing the oxygen of publicity to someone who is nothing more than extreme right wing neo-fascist thug.

Who uses every opportunity to spout his abhorrent racist and anti-Islamic views and agenda.

He should be vilified and confronted at every opportunity.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Wow, someone waited 27 weeks to find a retort to this thread Get a life, springs to mind

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *illwill69uMan  over a year ago

moston


"Wow, someone waited 27 weeks to find a retort to this thread Get a life, springs to mind "

Was not too interested in reading it all over again, but I am guessing some right wing blowhard thought to use the fact of today's publishment of the report into the failings of 2 councils to exonerate Yaxley Lennon or whatever he calls himself. So for once we agree, the blowhard really needs to get a life and stop defending racists.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

I saw a free tommy sign this morning

The first thing that went through my mind was FUCK HIM!! Let him rot

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *uxinteriorMan  over a year ago

south west , continental


"Wow, someone waited 27 weeks to find a retort to this thread Get a life, springs to mind "

Obviously the bogey man still lurks under the bed.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *otfabcouple2017Couple  over a year ago

Nottingham


"Wow, someone waited 27 weeks to find a retort to this thread Get a life, springs to mind

Was not too interested in reading it all over again, but I am guessing some right wing blowhard thought to use the fact of today's publishment of the report into the failings of 2 councils to exonerate Yaxley Lennon or whatever he calls himself. So for once we agree, the blowhard really needs to get a life and stop defending racists."

"Stop defending racists"

Do you mean like in the Rotherham case? I completely agree - i wish all of those police officers,social workers and councillors involved would have stopped their racism much earlier than they did.

I willing to bet here that in your view, those people have the wrong skin colour to be called victims. "What does it matter if a few white girls get r#ped, we cannot be seen to be islamaphobic"

I'm not sure if thats 100% verbatim, but it's close to what one of the officers said about this.

I have a BIG problem with any group of people being systematically targeted, even if that group has white skin.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *hetalkingstoveMan  over a year ago

London


""What does it matter if a few white girls get r#ped, we cannot be seen to be islamaphobic"

I'm not sure if thats 100% verbatim, but it's close to what one of the officers said about this.

"

What's your source for this?

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

We were heading in a colour blind direction but sadly thanks to the left constantly banging on about colour simply to help there election chances were now becoming polarised by colour.

Saddening times.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *otfabcouple2017Couple  over a year ago

Nottingham


""What does it matter if a few white girls get r#ped, we cannot be seen to be islamaphobic"

I'm not sure if thats 100% verbatim, but it's close to what one of the officers said about this.

What's your source for this?"

Struggling to find as I'm at work on phone but I can look later - just YouTube the Rotherham case and there's plenty you can watch, listen to the police officers themselves trying their best to lie themselves out of trouble - it's horrendous!

Now I'm not naive, i realise that we have "bad eggs" in all professions, but when the news first started coming out, like a moron I totally defended the police, and told many people that this would be proven to be bullshit, as there is no way that many senior police officers, social workers etc would be colluding to hide these horrific crimes. No way I said, far too many people would be needed to cover this up, and i didn't believe that it could possibly happen........

...imagine my disgust when it all proved to be true, and yes MANY Senior police were involved in trying to cover this up.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *illwill69uMan  over a year ago

moston


""Stop defending racists"

Do you mean like in the Rotherham case? I completely agree - i wish all of those police officers,social workers and councillors involved would have stopped their racism much earlier than they did.

I willing to bet here that in your view, those people have the wrong skin colour to be called victims. "What does it matter if a few white girls get r#ped, we cannot be seen to be islamaphobic"

I'm not sure if thats 100% verbatim, but it's close to what one of the officers said about this.

I have a BIG problem with any group of people being systematically targeted, even if that group has white skin."

FFS!

Stop conflating individuals and organisations failure to act to stop wrongness for fear of being labeled racist with the overt racism of of an individual who consonantly flouts sub sub judice laws (and in the process risking making a fair trial impossible, thus giving the accused a free pass) when he disapproves of the colour of their skin and their religion! Remember Yaxley Lennon has protested when the paedophiles have been brown Muslims, not white Catholics or white protestants, not white politicians, not white 70's BBC DJ's or white care home social workers.

So let me repeat (but a little louder), STOP DEFENDING RACIST CRIMINALS!

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *illwill69uMan  over a year ago

moston


"What's your source for this?"

The source of that quote was the enquiry into Rotherham Council and South Yorkshire Police forces handling of the grooming scandal. If I remember correctly it came from the head of Rotherham Social Services Dept..

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *otfabcouple2017Couple  over a year ago

Nottingham


""Stop defending racists"

Do you mean like in the Rotherham case? I completely agree - i wish all of those police officers,social workers and councillors involved would have stopped their racism much earlier than they did.

I willing to bet here that in your view, those people have the wrong skin colour to be called victims. "What does it matter if a few white girls get r#ped, we cannot be seen to be islamaphobic"

I'm not sure if thats 100% verbatim, but it's close to what one of the officers said about this.

I have a BIG problem with any group of people being systematically targeted, even if that group has white skin.

FFS!

Stop conflating individuals and organisations failure to act to stop wrongness for fear of being labeled racist with the overt racism of of an individual who consonantly flouts sub sub judice laws (and in the process risking making a fair trial impossible, thus giving the accused a free pass) when he disapproves of the colour of their skin and their religion! Remember Yaxley Lennon has protested when the paedophiles have been brown Muslims, not white Catholics or white protestants, not white politicians, not white 70's BBC DJ's or white care home social workers.

So let me repeat (but a little louder), STOP DEFENDING RACIST CRIMINALS!"

Show me where I am defending anyone?

Learn to read properly before repeating anything a little louder!

"The failure to act" as you described it,IS racism! They failed to act because of race - That IS direct racism.So YOU need to Stop defending racist actions.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


""Stop defending racists"

Do you mean like in the Rotherham case? I completely agree - i wish all of those police officers,social workers and councillors involved would have stopped their racism much earlier than they did.

I willing to bet here that in your view, those people have the wrong skin colour to be called victims. "What does it matter if a few white girls get r#ped, we cannot be seen to be islamaphobic"

I'm not sure if thats 100% verbatim, but it's close to what one of the officers said about this.

I have a BIG problem with any group of people being systematically targeted, even if that group has white skin.

FFS!

Stop conflating individuals and organisations failure to act to stop wrongness for fear of being labeled racist with the overt racism of of an individual who consonantly flouts sub sub judice laws (and in the process risking making a fair trial impossible, thus giving the accused a free pass) when he disapproves of the colour of their skin and their religion! Remember Yaxley Lennon has protested when the paedophiles have been brown Muslims, not white Catholics or white protestants, not white politicians, not white 70's BBC DJ's or white care home social workers.

So let me repeat (but a little louder), STOP DEFENDING RACIST CRIMINALS!"

Have a sudden urge to jump off a building, I agree with Will Mr Robinson is a racist and I wont defend that. What he did during the trial was self serving publicity. Nothing else.

If there was a cover up, and it appears there was, it is fown to the authorities to deal with it. Mr Robinson has the right to put it in the public domain but it has to be done in the right way, at the right time.

I watched the movie Spotlight a while ago about the abuse committed openly, and accepted, within the catholic church. That was truely disgusting and the punishment from the church for worst offenders? High profile positions in the vatican. That needs as much, or more, focus.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"What's your source for this?

The source of that quote was the enquiry into Rotherham Council and South Yorkshire Police forces handling of the grooming scandal. If I remember correctly it came from the head of Rotherham Social Services Dept.. "

A v quick search if tje indeoendant report...

People thought the police dare not acted becahse they feared being called racist... But waw not supported by specific examples.

All senior offixers said ethnic considerations did not influence dexisions.

Cant see the head of quote.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *otfabcouple2017Couple  over a year ago

Nottingham

Thanks can't remember which part but it's there.

Anyone who watches that enquiry will quickly understand the major problems we face.

The left pander to the minorities to win votes, and are willing to turn a blind eye to any wrong doing as long as the votes keep coming - if anyone doubt me please watch the full enquiry before questioning me on this. I turned my back on the left at that point for good.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Watches which enquiry, snd where can we watch?

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *otfabcouple2017Couple  over a year ago

Nottingham


""Stop defending racists"

Do you mean like in the Rotherham case? I completely agree - i wish all of those police officers,social workers and councillors involved would have stopped their racism much earlier than they did.

I willing to bet here that in your view, those people have the wrong skin colour to be called victims. "What does it matter if a few white girls get r#ped, we cannot be seen to be islamaphobic"

I'm not sure if thats 100% verbatim, but it's close to what one of the officers said about this.

I have a BIG problem with any group of people being systematically targeted, even if that group has white skin.

FFS!

Stop conflating individuals and organisations failure to act to stop wrongness for fear of being labeled racist with the overt racism of of an individual who consonantly flouts sub sub judice laws (and in the process risking making a fair trial impossible, thus giving the accused a free pass) when he disapproves of the colour of their skin and their religion! Remember Yaxley Lennon has protested when the paedophiles have been brown Muslims, not white Catholics or white protestants, not white politicians, not white 70's BBC DJ's or white care home social workers.

So let me repeat (but a little louder), STOP DEFENDING RACIST CRIMINALS!

Have a sudden urge to jump off a building, I agree with Will Mr Robinson is a racist and I wont defend that. What he did during the trial was self serving publicity. Nothing else.

If there was a cover up, and it appears there was, it is fown to the authorities to deal with it. Mr Robinson has the right to put it in the public domain but it has to be done in the right way, at the right time.

I watched the movie Spotlight a while ago about the abuse committed openly, and accepted, within the catholic church. That was truely disgusting and the punishment from the church for worst offenders? High profile positions in the vatican. That needs as much, or more, focus."

Agreed that ALL the cases of abuse should be thoroughly investigated - regardless of skin colour.

But can I ask, were all the offenders in the "Spotlight" documentary committing these acts specifically against members of another race? (Like in the Rotherham case)

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


""Stop defending racists"

Do you mean like in the Rotherham case? I completely agree - i wish all of those police officers,social workers and councillors involved would have stopped their racism much earlier than they did.

I willing to bet here that in your view, those people have the wrong skin colour to be called victims. "What does it matter if a few white girls get r#ped, we cannot be seen to be islamaphobic"

I'm not sure if thats 100% verbatim, but it's close to what one of the officers said about this.

I have a BIG problem with any group of people being systematically targeted, even if that group has white skin.

FFS!

Stop conflating individuals and organisations failure to act to stop wrongness for fear of being labeled racist with the overt racism of of an individual who consonantly flouts sub sub judice laws (and in the process risking making a fair trial impossible, thus giving the accused a free pass) when he disapproves of the colour of their skin and their religion! Remember Yaxley Lennon has protested when the paedophiles have been brown Muslims, not white Catholics or white protestants, not white politicians, not white 70's BBC DJ's or white care home social workers.

So let me repeat (but a little louder), STOP DEFENDING RACIST CRIMINALS!

Have a sudden urge to jump off a building, I agree with Will Mr Robinson is a racist and I wont defend that. What he did during the trial was self serving publicity. Nothing else.

If there was a cover up, and it appears there was, it is fown to the authorities to deal with it. Mr Robinson has the right to put it in the public domain but it has to be done in the right way, at the right time.

I watched the movie Spotlight a while ago about the abuse committed openly, and accepted, within the catholic church. That was truely disgusting and the punishment from the church for worst offenders? High profile positions in the vatican. That needs as much, or more, focus.

Agreed that ALL the cases of abuse should be thoroughly investigated - regardless of skin colour.

But can I ask, were all the offenders in the "Spotlight" documentary committing these acts specifically against members of another race? (Like in the Rotherham case) "

The Rotherham repiry said women groups described how Pakistani heritage girls were targeted.the girls feared reporting to the police. The deputy children commissioner said it was a myth the men only abused outside their community driven by hatred and contempt of white women.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *otfabcouple2017Couple  over a year ago

Nottingham


""Stop defending racists"

Do you mean like in the Rotherham case? I completely agree - i wish all of those police officers,social workers and councillors involved would have stopped their racism much earlier than they did.

I willing to bet here that in your view, those people have the wrong skin colour to be called victims. "What does it matter if a few white girls get r#ped, we cannot be seen to be islamaphobic"

I'm not sure if thats 100% verbatim, but it's close to what one of the officers said about this.

I have a BIG problem with any group of people being systematically targeted, even if that group has white skin.

FFS!

Stop conflating individuals and organisations failure to act to stop wrongness for fear of being labeled racist with the overt racism of of an individual who consonantly flouts sub sub judice laws (and in the process risking making a fair trial impossible, thus giving the accused a free pass) when he disapproves of the colour of their skin and their religion! Remember Yaxley Lennon has protested when the paedophiles have been brown Muslims, not white Catholics or white protestants, not white politicians, not white 70's BBC DJ's or white care home social workers.

So let me repeat (but a little louder), STOP DEFENDING RACIST CRIMINALS!

Have a sudden urge to jump off a building, I agree with Will Mr Robinson is a racist and I wont defend that. What he did during the trial was self serving publicity. Nothing else.

If there was a cover up, and it appears there was, it is fown to the authorities to deal with it. Mr Robinson has the right to put it in the public domain but it has to be done in the right way, at the right time.

I watched the movie Spotlight a while ago about the abuse committed openly, and accepted, within the catholic church. That was truely disgusting and the punishment from the church for worst offenders? High profile positions in the vatican. That needs as much, or more, focus.

Agreed that ALL the cases of abuse should be thoroughly investigated - regardless of skin colour.

But can I ask, were all the offenders in the "Spotlight" documentary committing these acts specifically against members of another race? (Like in the Rotherham case)

The Rotherham repiry said women groups described how Pakistani heritage girls were targeted.the girls feared reporting to the police. The deputy children commissioner said it was a myth the men only abused outside their community driven by hatred and contempt of white women. "

Were the "Pakistani heritage girls as you put it , were they Muslim?

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *otfabcouple2017Couple  over a year ago

Nottingham

I'll make the question easier

Did the Rotherham groomers target ANY Muslim girls?

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *hetalkingstoveMan  over a year ago

London


"

Show me where I am defending anyone? "

By trying to change the focus of the conversation away from Yaxley-Lemon and his racism, it comes across that you're attempting to defend him.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *illwill69uMan  over a year ago

moston


"Show me where I am defending anyone?

Learn to read properly before repeating anything a little louder!

"The failure to act" as you described it,IS racism! They failed to act because of race - That IS direct racism.So YOU need to Stop defending racist actions. "

You defend racism by claiming that the failure to act by South Yorkshire Police and Rotherham Council was racist.

Facts are as follows:

Rotherham Council reported the accusations to South Yorkshire Police, South Yorkshire Police told Rotherham council not to act! This was not because South Yorkshire Police was racist, it was because it was corrupt from top to bottom!

Just to be clear, at the same time as this was going on in Rotherham, South Yorkshire Police was covering up SaVile's abuse of mental patients including burying criminal investigations passed to them by other police forces, falsifying police records of the deaths of 96 Liverpool fans and who knows what else.

I will now say this again in even more detail:

STOP DEFENDING A RACIST BY ATTEMPTING TO DEFLECT FROM HIS CLEAR RACISM!

It only makes you look bad when you are confronted with the FULL facts rather than the ones you cherry-pick to make your point.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *ara JTV/TS  over a year ago

Bristol East

Is that the same force that lied through its teeth about the Hillsborough disaster?

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *illwill69uMan  over a year ago

moston


"Is that the same force that lied through its teeth about the Hillsborough disaster?

"

That's the one.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *otfabcouple2017Couple  over a year ago

Nottingham


"Show me where I am defending anyone?

Learn to read properly before repeating anything a little louder!

"The failure to act" as you described it,IS racism! They failed to act because of race - That IS direct racism.So YOU need to Stop defending racist actions.

You defend racism by claiming that the failure to act by South Yorkshire Police and Rotherham Council was racist.

Facts are as follows:

Rotherham Council reported the accusations to South Yorkshire Police, South Yorkshire Police told Rotherham council not to act! This was not because South Yorkshire Police was racist, it was because it was corrupt from top to bottom!

Just to be clear, at the same time as this was going on in Rotherham, South Yorkshire Police was covering up SaVile's abuse of mental patients including burying criminal investigations passed to them by other police forces, falsifying police records of the deaths of 96 Liverpool fans and who knows what else.

I will now say this again in even more detail:

STOP DEFENDING A RACIST BY ATTEMPTING TO DEFLECT FROM HIS CLEAR RACISM!

It only makes you look bad when you are confronted with the FULL facts rather than the ones you cherry-pick to make your point."

None of my facts are cherry picked lol

I'm not a Tommy fan by any means, but I have only seen him speak out against Islam, that's not racism, he is not speaking against anyone with a differing race. So you could call it anti Islamic or islamaphobic, but racist isn't the right term - and it's very important we get this right. Like I say I haven't watched a great deal of Tommy so if you know of any clear examples of racism you can point me towards I'm more than happy to change my opinion on this.

Show me racism and I'll be the first to fight with you stop this.

Regarding Rotherham, it was made clear they didn't want to appear anti Islamic and this skewed their judgement at the least. So....Race played a part - hence my comment.

At no point have I defended Tommy.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *ercuryMan  over a year ago

Grantham

The Alexis Jay inquiry into the abuse in Rotherham gave many reasons, including "the reluctance of the Labour run Council to challenge Labour voters of an ethnic group".

It echoes the concerns shown years ago by the Labour MP for Keighley, Ann Cryer, that groups of Asian men were targeting young vulnerable white girls. She wasn't believed either.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Not sure what the point is here...

To be clear we have sub judice laws designed to ensure that trials are as fair as possible for all. It does not matter how outrageous the crime, the accused has the right to a fair trial. Tommy Robinson has flouted these laws on multiple occasions and regardless of his reasons he has ignored multiple warnings by courts that if he did not desist he would be sent to prison for his contempt's of court. He now has to face the consequences of his actions. That is all there is to it, any attempt to change the narrative is noting more than a deflection from the simple fact that he is not above the law and must accept his punishment.

Could not have explained it better...

It saddens me that this thread has persisted so long. We are providing the oxygen of publicity to someone who is nothing more than extreme right wing neo-fascist thug.

Who uses every opportunity to spout his abhorrent racist and anti-Islamic views and agenda.

He should be vilified and confronted at every opportunity."

It saddens me that this thread has persisted so long. We are providing the oxygen of publicity to someone who is nothing more than extreme left wing neo-communist thug.

Who uses every opportunity to spout his abhorrent racist and anti-Jewish views and agenda.

Jeremy the cunt Corbyn should be vilified and confronted at every opportunity.

Works just as well

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *ara JTV/TS  over a year ago

Bristol East


"Is that the same force that lied through its teeth about the Hillsborough disaster?

That's the one.

"

'nuff said

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"I'll make the question easier

Did the Rotherham groomers target ANY Muslim girls?"

The report doesnt say. Id guess they were, but couldn't guarantee it. If the claim is they only targetted non muslims then its up to the person making the claim to prove it. As i suspect muslim victims are less likely to come forward, its hard to prove.

IMO its clutching at straws to make a claim and somewhat moving the goal posts to keep an agenda alive. Irrc not all those who have been found guilty were muslim.

Bad men targetted vunerable girls. Because of their social class they may not have been given the right level of seriousness to their allegations.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Not sure what the point is here...

To be clear we have sub judice laws designed to ensure that trials are as fair as possible for all. It does not matter how outrageous the crime, the accused has the right to a fair trial. Tommy Robinson has flouted these laws on multiple occasions and regardless of his reasons he has ignored multiple warnings by courts that if he did not desist he would be sent to prison for his contempt's of court. He now has to face the consequences of his actions. That is all there is to it, any attempt to change the narrative is noting more than a deflection from the simple fact that he is not above the law and must accept his punishment.

Could not have explained it better...

It saddens me that this thread has persisted so long. We are providing the oxygen of publicity to someone who is nothing more than extreme right wing neo-fascist thug.

Who uses every opportunity to spout his abhorrent racist and anti-Islamic views and agenda.

He should be vilified and confronted at every opportunity.

It saddens me that this thread has persisted so long. We are providing the oxygen of publicity to someone who is nothing more than extreme left wing neo-communist thug.

Who uses every opportunity to spout his abhorrent racist and anti-Jewish views and agenda.

Jeremy the cunt Corbyn should be vilified and confronted at every opportunity.

Works just as well "

"Works just as well"

Are you using this as an example of linguistics, or are you trying to suggest that Corbyn has as much race-hate on his agenda as Tommy Robinson?

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *illwill69uMan  over a year ago

moston


"I'll make the question easier

Did the Rotherham groomers target ANY Muslim girls?"

As said already girls of Pakistani extraction were targeted. That is girls whose families came from the 'Islamic Republic of Pakistan' to give it it's full name. Hint, the answer to your question is easy to spot if you want to see it.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *abioMan  over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

see... the problem i have about it.. is people claim its not about "race"... but them only mention the acts that have a racist element to it to suit the narrative...

see... tommy only ever mentioned incidences that affected people of a different ethnicity, but of of his closest colleagues in the EDL was convicted of the same crimes...

no outrage there......

people are right to mention the pakistani grooming gangs, but people are also right to mention the catholic church in the same sentence...

if you are mentioning just one or solely focusing all your anger at one, but not the other, because it doesn't suit the narrative you are pushing.... then you leave yourself open to the charge of racism....

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Not sure what the point is here...

To be clear we have sub judice laws designed to ensure that trials are as fair as possible for all. It does not matter how outrageous the crime, the accused has the right to a fair trial. Tommy Robinson has flouted these laws on multiple occasions and regardless of his reasons he has ignored multiple warnings by courts that if he did not desist he would be sent to prison for his contempt's of court. He now has to face the consequences of his actions. That is all there is to it, any attempt to change the narrative is noting more than a deflection from the simple fact that he is not above the law and must accept his punishment.

Could not have explained it better...

It saddens me that this thread has persisted so long. We are providing the oxygen of publicity to someone who is nothing more than extreme right wing neo-fascist thug.

Who uses every opportunity to spout his abhorrent racist and anti-Islamic views and agenda.

He should be vilified and confronted at every opportunity.

It saddens me that this thread has persisted so long. We are providing the oxygen of publicity to someone who is nothing more than extreme left wing neo-communist thug.

Who uses every opportunity to spout his abhorrent racist and anti-Jewish views and agenda.

Jeremy the cunt Corbyn should be vilified and confronted at every opportunity.

Works just as well

"Works just as well"

Are you using this as an example of linguistics, or are you trying to suggest that Corbyn has as much race-hate on his agenda as Tommy Robinson?"

His anti-Jewish agenda is well-documented Just because most Jews in the UK are white, this doesn't make it ok for him, and many of his supporters, to be racist cunts who have no place in this world.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *illwill69uMan  over a year ago

moston


"His anti-Jewish agenda is well-documented Just because most Jews in the UK are white, this doesn't make it ok for him, and many of his supporters, to be racist cunts who have no place in this world."

JC's support for the Palestinians and criticism of the current Israeli government is well documented. To conflate this with being anti-Jewish is insulting to say the least. To claim that Jewish groups funded by Israeli with pro Israeli agendas represent all or even most Jews is equally insulting to all those Jews who are also opposed to what Israel is doing in the name of world Jewry.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *ara JTV/TS  over a year ago

Bristol East

It's the alt-right agenda.

If you are not with us, you must be against us.

Fascism in its embryonic phase.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By *retty GoodMan  over a year ago

Cardiff Bay


"It's the alt-right agenda.

If you are not with us, you must be against us.

"

This is exactly the same as the left ,, everyone on the left mind, no comprises no discussion nothing

( this comment has nothing to do with the rest of the thread )

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

 

By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Not sure what the point is here...

To be clear we have sub judice laws designed to ensure that trials are as fair as possible for all. It does not matter how outrageous the crime, the accused has the right to a fair trial. Tommy Robinson has flouted these laws on multiple occasions and regardless of his reasons he has ignored multiple warnings by courts that if he did not desist he would be sent to prison for his contempt's of court. He now has to face the consequences of his actions. That is all there is to it, any attempt to change the narrative is noting more than a deflection from the simple fact that he is not above the law and must accept his punishment.

Could not have explained it better...

It saddens me that this thread has persisted so long. We are providing the oxygen of publicity to someone who is nothing more than extreme right wing neo-fascist thug.

Who uses every opportunity to spout his abhorrent racist and anti-Islamic views and agenda.

He should be vilified and confronted at every opportunity.

It saddens me that this thread has persisted so long. We are providing the oxygen of publicity to someone who is nothing more than extreme left wing neo-communist thug.

Who uses every opportunity to spout his abhorrent racist and anti-Jewish views and agenda.

Jeremy the cunt Corbyn should be vilified and confronted at every opportunity.

Works just as well

"Works just as well"

Are you using this as an example of linguistics, or are you trying to suggest that Corbyn has as much race-hate on his agenda as Tommy Robinson?

His anti-Jewish agenda is well-documented Just because most Jews in the UK are white, this doesn't make it ok for him, and many of his supporters, to be racist cunts who have no place in this world."

Doesn't seem like you answered my question.

But that's okay.

Also seems like you introduced an anti Corbyn agenda onto a thread about someone and something completely different.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

  

By *ral ExtraordinaireMan  over a year ago

Kent

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

» Add a new message to this topic

0.1093

0