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Tory Party Trapped in a Hell of its Own Making.

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By *nleashedCraken OP   Man  over a year ago

Widnes

May will resign on 7th June, followed by months of Tory self-indulgent, futile, navel-gazing as the party leadership battle unfolds. The campaign will expose the party as overwhelmingly pro-Brexit and the next prime minister will likely claim to favour a destructive, no-deal, departure because that’s what they’ll have to offer to get the job, in the process make the party unelectable for a generation or more. That should take us nicely through the Summer.

The real problem for the Conservatives and the UK is that, while we may have shed the leader of what appears to be the most inept government since 1688 we still face the exact same catastrophe that caused it. Having May as the scapegoat has simply shielded the UK from the far more fundamental truth: that BREXIT itself is the catastrophe. It’s not the singer it’s the song. If May were replaced by Winston Churchill the outcome would be the same and still prove just as unacceptable to Leavers, Remainers and Parliament alike.

When the EU approved the BREXIT extension in April we were warned “not to waste this time.” But what else could the new prime minister possibly do? Put the current Withdrawal Agreement Bill back to parliament? Parliament has already signalled it will reject it. Alter it? But how? Include the backstop, the DUP and hard-BREXITERS will oppose it. Leave out the backstop and the EU will reject it. If it doesn’t include a pledge for a referendum, the SNP, Change UK, Lib Dems and most of the Labour Party will reject if, if it does the BREXITERS will oppose it. The truth is, of course, that no renegotiation will save the new Prime Minister because there is nothing that can be negotiated that can also be delivered. The Brexit power dynamics have not changed, and neither will the fundamentals of the backstop or any other part of the Withdrawal Agreement. The new Prime Minister could try and pivot towards ‘no deal’, whilst trying to convince us all that, despite us hearing them repeatedly say otherwise, all along they’d thought that a ‘no deal’ outcome would not only be tolerable but actually desirable. But there was no parliamentary appetite for ‘no deal’ before and there’s still none now. Any Prime Minister who sought to drive us off the ‘no deal’ cliff would be ejected from office before they even switched on the engine.

The new PM should be in place by the summer recess, just in time to flit away another few months of doing nothing. Parliament will then gather after Summer for a few weeks, before quickly breaking up again for the conference season. At the Tory Party Conference (late September/ early October) the new Prime Minister will announce their brilliant new plan for BREXIT, no doubt involving a comprehensive renegotiation of the backstop while Conference cheers its new ‘patriotic hero’ to the rafters. But the reality is is that we will not be leaving the EU on the 31st October, there just will not be enough time even to pretend to negotiate anything, and so almost the very first task of this new Prime Minister, elected by BREXIT Tories to take us out of the EU, will be to ask the EU if we can stay just a little bit longer. And if the new Prime Minister refused to make the request parliament would resurrect the Cooper bill and simply force them to.

Meanwhile Ms May, from the backbenches will be swaying her head and muttering under her breath “Nothing has changed, nothing has changed” and she’ll be right. The new Prime Minister will be unable to pass the current deal through parliament, unable to renegotiate a new deal with Brussels and unable to take us out of the EU with no deal at all. The Tory Party will be trapped in a hell entirely of its own making. Having defenestrated May their scapegoat, her successor will ultimately have to apportion blame much closer to home.

Brexit cannot be resolved because it was never meant to be. It lays waste to everything before it. The next prime minister will confront the same reality and the same disaster. The only roads out are a general election, which promises oblivion for the Tories and possibly also Labour, a second referendum, which promises even more torture for the whole country or just abandon it as a bad idea. Until Tory leaders have the bravery to admit Brexit can’t be finished, Brexit will continue finish them.

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By *ara JTV/TS  over a year ago

Bristol East

It's been the biggest clusterfuck from day one that I have ever had the misfortune to experience. I am 52 years old.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

I could be wrong..but if the government stopped paying the E.U. Didnt give them another penny,under E.U rules we'd have to be kicked out.. like I say could be wrong.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Isn't it all going so well

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"I could be wrong..but if the government stopped paying the E.U. Didnt give them another penny,under E.U rules we'd have to be kicked out.. like I say could be wrong."

We would also be breaking international law.

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By *imiUKMan  over a year ago

Newbury

Finally the FPTP pastiche of democracy starts to crumble.

Ready yourselves, comrades.

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By *V-AliceTV/TS  over a year ago

Ayr


"It's been the biggest clusterfuck from day one that I have ever had the misfortune to experience. I am 52 years old."

I'm 55. I agree. Worse still, the fucking Tory party aren't the only ones trapped.

Better Together; eh, nawbags?

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By *nleashedCraken OP   Man  over a year ago

Widnes

[Removed by poster at 25/05/19 21:20:21]

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By *nleashedCraken OP   Man  over a year ago

Widnes


"I could be wrong..but if the government stopped paying the E.U. Didnt give them another penny,under E.U rules we'd have to be kicked out.. like I say could be wrong."

You are wrong!

If there really was a quick, simple solution to the BREXIT conundrum do you not think someone in either the Labour or Conservative party would have thought of it?

As for your solution of just not paying our bills and waiting to be cut off; how well do you think not sticking to the terms of our current trading deals would go down with the people we want to do new trade deals with in the future?

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Labour are no better with Trotskite Corbyn and Maoist McDonnell, if they got into power, I really think its time for Pinochet style coup and a new function for the new Wembley.

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By *nleashedCraken OP   Man  over a year ago

Widnes


"Labour are no better with Trotskite Corbyn and Maoist McDonnell, if they got into power, I really think its time for Pinochet style coup and a new function for the new Wembley."

I think that a Corbyn lead Labour government would be a disaster however I'm not sure it would actually be worse than leaving the EU, and neither would be worse than descending in a Pinochet style dictatorship.

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By *ara JTV/TS  over a year ago

Bristol East


"Labour are no better with Trotskite Corbyn and Maoist McDonnell, if they got into power, I really think its time for Pinochet style coup and a new function for the new Wembley."

The mindset of a pseudo-fascist.

I don't like the result. So I'm entitled to resort to violence and mass execution to get what I want.

Some scary people in here?

Are you a member of any proscribed organisation per chance?

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"I could be wrong..but if the government stopped paying the E.U. Didnt give them another penny,under E.U rules we'd have to be kicked out.. like I say could be wrong.

You are wrong!

If there really was a quick, simple solution to the BREXIT conundrum do you not think someone in either the Labour or Conservative party would have thought of it?

As for your solution of just not paying our bills and waiting to be cut off; how well do you think not sticking to the terms of our current trading deals would go down with the people we want to do new trade deals with in the future?

"

the suggestion 'stop paying E.U.",came from an elder politiian in 2016..hey -ho.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Labour are no better with Trotskite Corbyn and Maoist McDonnell, if they got into power, I really think its time for Pinochet style coup and a new function for the new Wembley.

The mindset of a pseudo-fascist.

I don't like the result. So I'm entitled to resort to violence and mass execution to get what I want.

Some scary people in here?

Are you a member of any proscribed organisation per chance?

"

It is better to just laugh at him, if you take him seriously it kind of validates what he is saying .

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Labour are no better with Trotskite Corbyn and Maoist McDonnell, if they got into power, I really think its time for Pinochet style coup and a new function for the new Wembley.

The mindset of a pseudo-fascist.

I don't like the result. So I'm entitled to resort to violence and mass execution to get what I want.

Some scary people in here?

Are you a member of any proscribed organisation per chance?

"

Its called a joke, and you're the best description of a fascist, you said earlier you can't eat democracy, Corbyn government would have no money it will be gone in a mouse click and any violence would probably be started by him, ended by democrats like me.

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By *ara JTV/TS  over a year ago

Bristol East


"I could be wrong..but if the government stopped paying the E.U. Didnt give them another penny,under E.U rules we'd have to be kicked out.. like I say could be wrong."

Suspended probably. Which is pretty much where the UK is anyway.

The rule of law would apply, and the UK Government would be in breach of it's own legislation - Parliament has passed legislation requiring the UK to remain a fully paid-up member until Oct 31.

Revocation of membership is required to cease payment.

It amazes me how those who bought into the "take back control" sound-byte think the solution lies in the hands of the EU.

It's a full-on feckin farce.

.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"I could be wrong..but if the government stopped paying the E.U. Didnt give them another penny,under E.U rules we'd have to be kicked out.. like I say could be wrong.

Suspended probably. Which is pretty much where the UK is anyway.

The rule of law would apply, and the UK Government would be in breach of it's own legislation - Parliament has passed legislation requiring the UK to remain a fully paid-up member until Oct 31.

Revocation of membership is required to cease payment.

It amazes me how those who bought into the "take back control" sound-byte think the solution lies in the hands of the EU.

It's a full-on feckin farce.

."

If you don't pay you don't pay,actually the issue with the EU is democracy which you don't like, don't pay what can they do, send the bailiffs.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"I could be wrong..but if the government stopped paying the E.U. Didnt give them another penny,under E.U rules we'd have to be kicked out.. like I say could be wrong.

Suspended probably. Which is pretty much where the UK is anyway.

The rule of law would apply, and the UK Government would be in breach of it's own legislation - Parliament has passed legislation requiring the UK to remain a fully paid-up member until Oct 31.

Revocation of membership is required to cease payment.

It amazes me how those who bought into the "take back control" sound-byte think the solution lies in the hands of the EU.

It's a full-on feckin farce.

.

If you don't pay you don't pay,actually the issue with the EU is democracy which you don't like, don't pay what can they do, send the bailiffs."

In your own words, describe to me your definition of democracy?

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By *ara JTV/TS  over a year ago

Bristol East


"I could be wrong..but if the government stopped paying the E.U. Didnt give them another penny,under E.U rules we'd have to be kicked out.. like I say could be wrong.

Suspended probably. Which is pretty much where the UK is anyway.

The rule of law would apply, and the UK Government would be in breach of it's own legislation - Parliament has passed legislation requiring the UK to remain a fully paid-up member until Oct 31.

Revocation of membership is required to cease payment.

It amazes me how those who bought into the "take back control" sound-byte think the solution lies in the hands of the EU.

It's a full-on feckin farce.

.

If you don't pay you don't pay,actually the issue with the EU is democracy which you don't like, don't pay what can they do, send the bailiffs."

You seem not to understand. That would be contrary to an Act of the UK Parliament. The Government would be in contempt.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple  over a year ago

in Lancashire


"Labour are no better with Trotskite Corbyn and Maoist McDonnell, if they got into power, I really think its time for Pinochet style coup and a new function for the new Wembley.

The mindset of a pseudo-fascist.

I don't like the result. So I'm entitled to resort to violence and mass execution to get what I want.

Some scary people in here?

Are you a member of any proscribed organisation per chance?

Its called a joke, and you're the best description of a fascist, you said earlier you can't eat democracy, Corbyn government would have no money it will be gone in a mouse click and any violence would probably be started by him, ended by democrats like me."

The humour of pinochets butchers and the slaughter they carried out whilst being validated by the likes of Thatcher and Reagan is a bit beyond me, pray tell what really made you slap your thighs in glee about those dark days..

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"I could be wrong..but if the government stopped paying the E.U. Didnt give them another penny,under E.U rules we'd have to be kicked out.. like I say could be wrong.

Suspended probably. Which is pretty much where the UK is anyway.

The rule of law would apply, and the UK Government would be in breach of it's own legislation - Parliament has passed legislation requiring the UK to remain a fully paid-up member until Oct 31.

Revocation of membership is required to cease payment.

It amazes me how those who bought into the "take back control" sound-byte think the solution lies in the hands of the EU.

It's a full-on feckin farce.

.

If you don't pay you don't pay,actually the issue with the EU is democracy which you don't like, don't pay what can they do, send the bailiffs.

In your own words, describe to me your definition of democracy? "

Democracy is simply in the English sense a right to remove actually, there is no real workable form of pure democracy, most people don't really care very much beyond the next football match.

Actually the form of democracy we have is due to capitalism, now its possible to have capitalism without democracy but impossible to have it without, that is simple to explain, because if you're in charge of your own income you don't need the government to survive, so you don't like vote against them. The EU commission cannot be removed, I really don't know why you like them.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Labour are no better with Trotskite Corbyn and Maoist McDonnell, if they got into power, I really think its time for Pinochet style coup and a new function for the new Wembley.

The mindset of a pseudo-fascist.

I don't like the result. So I'm entitled to resort to violence and mass execution to get what I want.

Some scary people in here?

Are you a member of any proscribed organisation per chance?

Its called a joke, and you're the best description of a fascist, you said earlier you can't eat democracy, Corbyn government would have no money it will be gone in a mouse click and any violence would probably be started by him, ended by democrats like me.

The humour of pinochets butchers and the slaughter they carried out whilst being validated by the likes of Thatcher and Reagan is a bit beyond me, pray tell what really made you slap your thighs in glee about those dark days.. "

Yes but people wear Guevara tee shirts he was a rich Argentinian who happily killed Cuban tobacco farmers with a pistol if they failed to give him their crop, Pinochet was violent to remove the communist government yet handed back a functioning country,what did the commies do except murder? Its OK they meant well.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"I could be wrong..but if the government stopped paying the E.U. Didnt give them another penny,under E.U rules we'd have to be kicked out.. like I say could be wrong.

Suspended probably. Which is pretty much where the UK is anyway.

The rule of law would apply, and the UK Government would be in breach of it's own legislation - Parliament has passed legislation requiring the UK to remain a fully paid-up member until Oct 31.

Revocation of membership is required to cease payment.

It amazes me how those who bought into the "take back control" sound-byte think the solution lies in the hands of the EU.

It's a full-on feckin farce.

.

If you don't pay you don't pay,actually the issue with the EU is democracy which you don't like, don't pay what can they do, send the bailiffs.

In your own words, describe to me your definition of democracy?

Democracy is simply in the English sense a right to remove actually, there is no real workable form of pure democracy, most people don't really care very much beyond the next football match.

Actually the form of democracy we have is due to capitalism, now its possible to have capitalism without democracy but impossible to have it without, that is simple to explain, because if you're in charge of your own income you don't need the government to survive, so you don't like vote against them. The EU commission cannot be removed, I really don't know why you like them."

Who said I liked them? However the positives of being in the EU for outweighs the negatives. You have just stated that pure democracy doesn’t work, to quote winston Churchill ‘democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time’. Why isn’t it democratic to have a second referendum? We have a general election every 4 or 5 years??

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple  over a year ago

in Lancashire


"Labour are no better with Trotskite Corbyn and Maoist McDonnell, if they got into power, I really think its time for Pinochet style coup and a new function for the new Wembley.

The mindset of a pseudo-fascist.

I don't like the result. So I'm entitled to resort to violence and mass execution to get what I want.

Some scary people in here?

Are you a member of any proscribed organisation per chance?

Its called a joke, and you're the best description of a fascist, you said earlier you can't eat democracy, Corbyn government would have no money it will be gone in a mouse click and any violence would probably be started by him, ended by democrats like me.

The humour of pinochets butchers and the slaughter they carried out whilst being validated by the likes of Thatcher and Reagan is a bit beyond me, pray tell what really made you slap your thighs in glee about those dark days..

Yes but people wear Guevara tee shirts he was a rich Argentinian who happily killed Cuban tobacco farmers with a pistol if they failed to give him their crop, Pinochet was violent to remove the communist government yet handed back a functioning country,what did the commies do except murder? Its OK they meant well."

So fascist genocide good, lefties genocide bad?

Still not funny..

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Labour are no better with Trotskite Corbyn and Maoist McDonnell, if they got into power, I really think its time for Pinochet style coup and a new function for the new Wembley.

The mindset of a pseudo-fascist.

I don't like the result. So I'm entitled to resort to violence and mass execution to get what I want.

Some scary people in here?

Are you a member of any proscribed organisation per chance?

Its called a joke, and you're the best description of a fascist, you said earlier you can't eat democracy, Corbyn government would have no money it will be gone in a mouse click and any violence would probably be started by him, ended by democrats like me.

The humour of pinochets butchers and the slaughter they carried out whilst being validated by the likes of Thatcher and Reagan is a bit beyond me, pray tell what really made you slap your thighs in glee about those dark days..

Yes but people wear Guevara tee shirts he was a rich Argentinian who happily killed Cuban tobacco farmers with a pistol if they failed to give him their crop, Pinochet was violent to remove the communist government yet handed back a functioning country,what did the commies do except murder? Its OK they meant well.

So fascist genocide good, lefties genocide bad?

Still not funny.. "

Actually fascist is left wing in the Mussolini sense, the right wing ting was put in to discredit capitalists who thought they could control Hitler, Mussolini was easy to control, he was a hypocrite, like 99% of us, Hitler was a fanatic, bit like Corbyn.

But why is Che Guevara shirts acceptable when Pinochet ones are not and he's not nearly as bad as even Chavez, Pinochet actually did good in the end, yet Castro apart from having Che killed (rival) still fucks up his country until this day.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"I could be wrong..but if the government stopped paying the E.U. Didnt give them another penny,under E.U rules we'd have to be kicked out.. like I say could be wrong.

Suspended probably. Which is pretty much where the UK is anyway.

The rule of law would apply, and the UK Government would be in breach of it's own legislation - Parliament has passed legislation requiring the UK to remain a fully paid-up member until Oct 31.

Revocation of membership is required to cease payment.

It amazes me how those who bought into the "take back control" sound-byte think the solution lies in the hands of the EU.

It's a full-on feckin farce.

.

If you don't pay you don't pay,actually the issue with the EU is democracy which you don't like, don't pay what can they do, send the bailiffs.

You seem not to understand. That would be contrary to an Act of the UK Parliament. The Government would be in contempt."

What government!..isnt the current(ongoing) delay tactics in contempt of those who democratically voted to leave

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Also add Pinochet never committed genocide, he executed the communist government.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"I could be wrong..but if the government stopped paying the E.U. Didnt give them another penny,under E.U rules we'd have to be kicked out.. like I say could be wrong.

Suspended probably. Which is pretty much where the UK is anyway.

The rule of law would apply, and the UK Government would be in breach of it's own legislation - Parliament has passed legislation requiring the UK to remain a fully paid-up member until Oct 31.

Revocation of membership is required to cease payment.

It amazes me how those who bought into the "take back control" sound-byte think the solution lies in the hands of the EU.

It's a full-on feckin farce.

.

If you don't pay you don't pay,actually the issue with the EU is democracy which you don't like, don't pay what can they do, send the bailiffs.

In your own words, describe to me your definition of democracy?

Democracy is simply in the English sense a right to remove actually, there is no real workable form of pure democracy, most people don't really care very much beyond the next football match.

Actually the form of democracy we have is due to capitalism, now its possible to have capitalism without democracy but impossible to have it without, that is simple to explain, because if you're in charge of your own income you don't need the government to survive, so you don't like vote against them. The EU commission cannot be removed, I really don't know why you like them.

Who said I liked them? However the positives of being in the EU for outweighs the negatives. You have just stated that pure democracy doesn’t work, to quote winston Churchill ‘democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time’. Why isn’t it democratic to have a second referendum? We have a general election every 4 or 5 years??"

A pathetic statement, a referendum is a question not an a election, that question was asked and the answer ignored, i can't believe how so many people are blind to the fact the government have simply ignored the outcome, the results of this election will be telling because the left have not silenced the real contributors in this country they've stopped talking and voting first against you a the ballot box. Its over remoaners!!

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By *ara JTV/TS  over a year ago

Bristol East


"Also add Pinochet never committed genocide, he executed the communist government."

That's a mighty big government then - he executed over 3000 people and imprisoned and tortured 80,000 others.

Even more had it not been for the brave Rolls Royce workers at East Kilbride who refused to return his jet engines.

You can tell a lot about someone by who they admire.

Murderous scum.

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By *nleashedCraken OP   Man  over a year ago

Widnes


"I could be wrong..but if the government stopped paying the E.U. Didnt give them another penny,under E.U rules we'd have to be kicked out.. like I say could be wrong.

Suspended probably. Which is pretty much where the UK is anyway.

The rule of law would apply, and the UK Government would be in breach of it's own legislation - Parliament has passed legislation requiring the UK to remain a fully paid-up member until Oct 31.

Revocation of membership is required to cease payment.

It amazes me how those who bought into the "take back control" sound-byte think the solution lies in the hands of the EU.

It's a full-on feckin farce.

.

If you don't pay you don't pay,actually the issue with the EU is democracy which you don't like, don't pay what can they do, send the bailiffs."

In a way they could. Once we step outside the rule of international law anything could happen. Our embassy buildings and counsels scattered around Europe's capital cities must be worth a few quid, and that's before we start looking at other assets.

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By *ishaw cucksCouple  over a year ago

wishaw

Anyone on here from Scotland who still thinks independence is wrong please pm me with your reason why no argument time is for reality and leave england and the sheep from Wales to it xx ps love the English and Welsh people but yous keep voting the crackpots in xx

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Also add Pinochet never committed genocide, he executed the communist government.

That's a mighty big government then - he executed over 3000 people and imprisoned and tortured 80,000 others.

Even more had it not been for the brave Rolls Royce workers at East Kilbride who refused to return his jet engines.

You can tell a lot about someone by who they admire.

Murderous scum.

"

And a 100 million for the commies, I never endorsed what he did but we killed 6 million Germans to have our freedom this idea you have you hold any high ground when earlier you dismissed democracy is as laughable as you are feminine.

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By *ara JTV/TS  over a year ago

Bristol East


"Labour are no better with Trotskite Corbyn and Maoist McDonnell, if they got into power, I really think its time for Pinochet style coup and a new function for the new Wembley."

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By *nleashedCraken OP   Man  over a year ago

Widnes


"Also add Pinochet never committed genocide, he executed the communist government.

That's a mighty big government then - he executed over 3000 people and imprisoned and tortured 80,000 others.

Even more had it not been for the brave Rolls Royce workers at East Kilbride who refused to return his jet engines.

You can tell a lot about someone by who they admire.

Murderous scum.

And a 100 million for the commies, I never endorsed what he did but we killed 6 million Germans to have our freedom this idea you have you hold any high ground when earlier you dismissed democracy is as laughable as you are feminine."

You're the only person on here defending the actions of a murderous dictator. And your reason is is that some other evil murderous dictator somewhere else was worse. Unbelievable.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Also add Pinochet never committed genocide, he executed the communist government.

That's a mighty big government then - he executed over 3000 people and imprisoned and tortured 80,000 others.

Even more had it not been for the brave Rolls Royce workers at East Kilbride who refused to return his jet engines.

You can tell a lot about someone by who they admire.

Murderous scum.

And a 100 million for the commies, I never endorsed what he did but we killed 6 million Germans to have our freedom this idea you have you hold any high ground when earlier you dismissed democracy is as laughable as you are feminine.

You're the only person on here defending the actions of a murderous dictator. And your reason is is that some other evil murderous dictator somewhere else was worse. Unbelievable.

"

Don’t feed the troll, just laugh at him,

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Anyone on here from Scotland who still thinks independence is wrong please pm me with your reason why no argument time is for reality and leave england and the sheep from Wales to it xx ps love the English and Welsh people but yous keep voting the crackpots in xx"

I don’t blame the Scottish or Welsh if they wanted independence , but let’s be honest, you will be totally fucked with out us

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By *ara JTV/TS  over a year ago

Bristol East

if the Brexit fiasco has taught me nothing else, it's opened my eyes to a Yes vote in Scotland.

If you think it's tough to extract a state from a union after 40 years, how much tougher will it be to disentangle a country from a union after 300-odd years?

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By *nleashedCraken OP   Man  over a year ago

Widnes

[Removed by poster at 25/05/19 23:52:55]

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By *nleashedCraken OP   Man  over a year ago

Widnes


"Anyone on here from Scotland who still thinks independence is wrong please pm me with your reason why no argument time is for reality and leave england and the sheep from Wales to it xx ps love the English and Welsh people but yous keep voting the crackpots in xx"

I'm not, never have been and never will be in favour of breaking up the Union of Great Britain. However, whilest I'll grant you that BREXIT increases the moral case for Scottish independence, at the same time it totally kills the economic and social case for it. The destruction caused to the UK and Scotland caused by BREXIT is as nothing compared to the destruction and damage that would be caused by the break up of the Great Britain.

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By *nleashedCraken OP   Man  over a year ago

Widnes

F'ing spell checker.

That's disruption not destruction.

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By *ara JTV/TS  over a year ago

Bristol East


"

I'm not, never have been and never will be in favour of breaking up the Union of Great Britain. However, whilest I'll grant you that BREXIT increases the moral case for Scottish independence, at the same time it totally kills the economic and social case for it. The destruction caused to the UK and Scotland caused by BREXIT is as nothing compared to the destruction and damage that would be caused by the break up of the Great Britain.

"

You can argue the people of Scotland heeded the economic reality in 2014, but the people of England ignored it in 2016.

Perhaps Scotland will take heed from England and vote with the heart instead of the head next time.

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By *nleashedCraken OP   Man  over a year ago

Widnes


"Anyone on here from Scotland who still thinks independence is wrong please pm me with your reason why no argument time is for reality and leave england and the sheep from Wales to it xx ps love the English and Welsh people but yous keep voting the crackpots in xx

I don’t blame the Scottish or Welsh if they wanted independence , but let’s be honest, you will be totally fucked with out us "

If the UK falls apart, especially the the union of Great Britain, we'll all be fucked. Scotland possibly most but it won't be painless for England & Wales either.

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By *ara JTV/TS  over a year ago

Bristol East

Yep.

It's the cascade.

Just as the damage from the UK/EU divorce hits the UK primarily, so the damage from a Scotland/UK divorce would hit Scotland primarily.

But the collateral damage is huge.

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By *ara JTV/TS  over a year ago

Bristol East

And a £200bn economy trying to negotiate with a £2 trillion really does not have much leverage.

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By *ara JTV/TS  over a year ago

Bristol East

* £2 trillion economy

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By *nleashedCraken OP   Man  over a year ago

Widnes


"

I'm not, never have been and never will be in favour of breaking up the Union of Great Britain. However, whilest I'll grant you that BREXIT increases the moral case for Scottish independence, at the same time it totally kills the economic and social case for it. The destruction caused to the UK and Scotland caused by BREXIT is as nothing compared to the destruction and damage that would be caused by the break up of the Great Britain.

You can argue the people of Scotland heeded the economic reality in 2014, but the people of England ignored it in 2016.

Perhaps Scotland will take heed from England and vote with the heart instead of the head next time.

"

I hope not. The connections between England and Scotland, especially North of Birmingham, go far deeper than the Union. The village where I grew up has the yellow Lyon Rampant as it's sympol and a tradition of bagpipes and kilts yet we're 200 miles from the Scottish border. There are many other villages and towns scattered all over Lancashire, Cumbria and Northumberland with similar Scottish connections. And that's even before we start talking about the vast amounts of trade done between England and Scotland all of which would be placed at risk. A break up of Great Britain would make BREXIT look like a walk in the park.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

By Sara JFind posts by Sara J TV/TS 14 hours ago

BRISTOL

Good luck trying to eat democracy.

You said that in all seriousness, I was joking Corbyn doesn't have the muscle to get through his commie plans.

You're the real fascist.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Also add Pinochet never committed genocide, he executed the communist government.

That's a mighty big government then - he executed over 3000 people and imprisoned and tortured 80,000 others.

Even more had it not been for the brave Rolls Royce workers at East Kilbride who refused to return his jet engines.

You can tell a lot about someone by who they admire.

Murderous scum.

And a 100 million for the commies, I never endorsed what he did but we killed 6 million Germans to have our freedom this idea you have you hold any high ground when earlier you dismissed democracy is as laughable as you are feminine.

You're the only person on here defending the actions of a murderous dictator. And your reason is is that some other evil murderous dictator somewhere else was worse. Unbelievable.

"

I'm not defending I'm saying he did more for Chile than the socialist murderers, Corbyn has no chance of even functioning let alone murder. Much as he'd probably like to given he liking for Hezbollah and Hamas

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By *ara JTV/TS  over a year ago

Bristol East


"

The connections between England and Scotland, especially North of Birmingham, go far deeper than the Union. The village where I grew up has the yellow Lyon Rampant as it's sympol and a tradition of bagpipes and kilts yet we're 200 miles from the Scottish border. There are many other villages and towns scattered all over Lancashire, Cumbria and Northumberland with similar Scottish connections. And that's even before we start talking about the vast amounts of trade done between England and Scotland all of which would be placed at risk. A break up of Great Britain would make BREXIT look like a walk in the park.

"

Yes.

Nationalised industry was one of the things that held the country together.

The car worker in Bathgate worked for the same motor corporation as the car worker on Merseyside.

The miner in Fife worked for the same board as the miner in the north-east.

Steel, too. And ship-building.

People moved around. They had a common bond.

It's gone, but the cultural ties are still there.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"I could be wrong..but if the government stopped paying the E.U. Didnt give them another penny,under E.U rules we'd have to be kicked out.. like I say could be wrong.

Suspended probably. Which is pretty much where the UK is anyway.

The rule of law would apply, and the UK Government would be in breach of it's own legislation - Parliament has passed legislation requiring the UK to remain a fully paid-up member until Oct 31.

Revocation of membership is required to cease payment.

It amazes me how those who bought into the "take back control" sound-byte think the solution lies in the hands of the EU.

It's a full-on feckin farce.

.

If you don't pay you don't pay,actually the issue with the EU is democracy which you don't like, don't pay what can they do, send the bailiffs.

In your own words, describe to me your definition of democracy?

Democracy is simply in the English sense a right to remove actually, there is no real workable form of pure democracy, most people don't really care very much beyond the next football match.

Actually the form of democracy we have is due to capitalism, now its possible to have capitalism without democracy but impossible to have it without, that is simple to explain, because if you're in charge of your own income you don't need the government to survive, so you don't like vote against them. The EU commission cannot be removed, I really don't know why you like them.

Who said I liked them? However the positives of being in the EU for outweighs the negatives. You have just stated that pure democracy doesn’t work, to quote winston Churchill ‘democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time’. Why isn’t it democratic to have a second referendum? We have a general election every 4 or 5 years??

A pathetic statement, a referendum is a question not an a election, that question was asked and the answer ignored, i can't believe how so many people are blind to the fact the government have simply ignored the outcome, the results of this election will be telling because the left have not silenced the real contributors in this country they've stopped talking and voting first against you a the ballot box. Its over remoaners!! "

Haha, you are funny. It isn’t over though, we haven’t left and your getting angry because you know we won’t leave. Your Brexit dream is over

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By *nleashedCraken OP   Man  over a year ago

Widnes


" By Sara JFind posts by Sara J TV/TS 14 hours ago

BRISTOL

Good luck trying to eat democracy.

You said that in all seriousness, I was joking Corbyn doesn't have the muscle to get through his commie plans.

You're the real fascist."

I'm really not sure what your point is. I read that post at the time.

What I really don't understand is how can not being aloud to change our collective minds is some how defending democracy but seeing if what ever deal, if any, we finally get for BREXIT, is what the people actually wanted when they voted to leave is some how undemocratic?

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By *ara JTV/TS  over a year ago

Bristol East


"

You're the real fascist."

Tsk, tsk . . Mr Fookin' Angry

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


" By Sara JFind posts by Sara J TV/TS 14 hours ago

BRISTOL

Good luck trying to eat democracy.

You said that in all seriousness, I was joking Corbyn doesn't have the muscle to get through his commie plans.

You're the real fascist.

I'm really not sure what your point is. I read that post at the time.

What I really don't understand is how can not being aloud to change our collective minds is some how defending democracy but seeing if what ever deal, if any, we finally get for BREXIT, is what the people actually wanted when they voted to leave is some how undemocratic?

"

I'm saying he don't care about anything other than his own opinion, pretty easy.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"

You're the real fascist.

Tsk, tsk . . Mr Fookin' Angry

"

Quote the whole quote, you dismisied democracy, so did Hitler, the unions of the 70's, what would you do to get what you want?

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By *nleashedCraken OP   Man  over a year ago

Widnes


" By Sara JFind posts by Sara J TV/TS 14 hours ago

BRISTOL

Good luck trying to eat democracy.

You said that in all seriousness, I was joking Corbyn doesn't have the muscle to get through his commie plans.

You're the real fascist.

I'm really not sure what your point is. I read that post at the time.

What I really don't understand is how can not being aloud to change our collective minds is some how defending democracy but seeing if what ever deal, if any, we finally get for BREXIT, is what the people actually wanted when they voted to leave is some how undemocratic?

I'm saying he don't care about anything other than his own opinion, pretty easy."

I don't know what Sara cares about and I don't know how that's relevant.

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By *avidnsa69Man  over a year ago

Essex


"Labour are no better with Trotskite Corbyn and Maoist McDonnell, if they got into power, I really think its time for Pinochet style coup and a new function for the new Wembley."

If you really believe what you're typing you need locking up

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

Implementing Brexit has only become difficult because MPs chose to obstruct the process.

We can simply leave without a deal. ( in any event we are only talking about tweaks to duty rates) which cancel out at World level.)

Leaving without a deal simply means the best deal possible . Once we have left the EU wi)l be desperate to negotiate deals with us.

No business can afford to lose on of its most profitable customers.

Membership night be vast but we are a top quality customer who pays one of the highest contributions.

Leaving on WTO terms will also mean lower food and clothes prices which helps the less well off in society .

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"Implementing Brexit has only become difficult because MPs chose to obstruct the process.

We can simply leave without a deal. ( in any event we are only talking about tweaks to duty rates) which cancel out at World level.)

Leaving without a deal simply means the best deal possible . Once we have left the EU wi)l be desperate to negotiate deals with us.

No business can afford to lose on of its most profitable customers.

Membership night be vast but we are a top quality customer who pays one of the highest contributions.

Leaving on WTO terms will also mean lower food and clothes prices which helps the less well off in society .

"

You're Fabs version of The May Bot

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago

No business. An afford to walk away from one iys most profitable customers.

Let's walk away from the a deal which effects 40% of our customers.

All that will happen is there will be additional costs.

But prices will go down.

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By *avidnsa69Man  over a year ago

Essex


"Implementing Brexit has only become difficult because MPs chose to obstruct the process.

We can simply leave without a deal. ( in any event we are only talking about tweaks to duty rates) which cancel out at World level.)

Leaving without a deal simply means the best deal possible . Once we have left the EU wi)l be desperate to negotiate deals with us.

No business can afford to lose on of its most profitable customers.

Membership night be vast but we are a top quality customer who pays one of the highest contributions.

Leaving on WTO terms will also mean lower food and clothes prices which helps the less well off in society .

"

It was tosh last time you posted this: it still is

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By *imiUKMan  over a year ago

Newbury


"Labour are no better with Trotskite Corbyn and Maoist McDonnell, if they got into power, I really think its time for Pinochet style coup and a new function for the new Wembley.

The mindset of a pseudo-fascist.

I don't like the result. So I'm entitled to resort to violence and mass execution to get what I want.

Some scary people in here?

Are you a member of any proscribed organisation per chance?

Its called a joke, and you're the best description of a fascist, you said earlier you can't eat democracy, Corbyn government would have no money it will be gone in a mouse click and any violence would probably be started by him, ended by democrats like me.

The humour of pinochets butchers and the slaughter they carried out whilst being validated by the likes of Thatcher and Reagan is a bit beyond me, pray tell what really made you slap your thighs in glee about those dark days..

Yes but people wear Guevara tee shirts he was a rich Argentinian who happily killed Cuban tobacco farmers with a pistol if they failed to give him their crop, Pinochet was violent to remove the communist government yet handed back a functioning country,what did the commies do except murder? Its OK they meant well.

So fascist genocide good, lefties genocide bad?

Still not funny..

Actually fascist is left wing in the Mussolini sense, the right wing ting was put in to discredit capitalists who thought they could control Hitler, Mussolini was easy to control, he was a hypocrite, like 99% of us, Hitler was a fanatic, bit like Corbyn.

But why is Che Guevara shirts acceptable when Pinochet ones are not and he's not nearly as bad as even Chavez, Pinochet actually did good in the end, yet Castro apart from having Che killed (rival) still fucks up his country until this day."

Another "Fascism is left wing" moron.

Hitler was such a fan of the left that he rounded them up and sent them to Dachau.....

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By *ara JTV/TS  over a year ago

Bristol East

Hitler was the "will of the people" once.

Hindsight is wonderful.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS  over a year ago

Central

The conservative party definitely has a number of rabid wannabe leaders who'll utter ultra right-wing filth, to try to gain the support of the few thousand conservative party members (who are of course, not at all representative of the UK population). We've had discussion on LGBT issues, where some seem to view equality to be on a sliding scale, rather than absolute, as an example of how snippets of their true colours are being fed to those who want to hear such things.

When a country is so split, it's clear that the sensible thing to do is to elect a leader who is not going to widen the gulf still further but who would be someone who brings people together. Many people aren't really appreciative of cooperative styles of working - except politicians, when they need to get their government propped up by some other extremist organisation like the DUP.

The government created the mess, then May ensured that she prioritised the conservative party, over the country, whilst the brexit mess grew - all the time, as she refused to work collaboratively. Then the deal got voted down repeatedly.

Another hardliner will get more of the same, if they continue this, potentially taking on the role of absolute dictator, trying to run down the clock until Halloween.

The conservative party and members will take take much of the summer to get someone in place - whilst the clock is ticking and there's virtually no time left - many of them do not care.

Meanwhile, the harsh realities of what stoked people towards voting for brexit, the lack of appropriate infrastructure, including public services in the UK, continue to be neglected - if a hard brexit happens, then the population will generally be given even tougher conditions to have to endure for the foreseeable future. This despite whatever the swivel eyed types may sickly proclaim about the UK regaining its position in the world again. Mad.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS  over a year ago

Central


"

A pathetic statement, a referendum is a question not an a election, that question was asked and the answer ignored "

We've spent 3 years and £billions in pursuit of a negotiated deal, to depart the EU. This has also been at the cost of many other priorities, that the government has left aside.


"

i can't believe how so many people are blind to the fact the government have simply ignored the outcome"

They didn't.


" the real contributors in this country they've stopped talking and voting first against you a the ballot box. Its over remoaners!! "

The moaners are the swivel eyed brexit lot. It appears that the vast majority of constructive input since the referendum has come from those who understood that to remain in the EU is the UK's best option, so these people have been the 'real contributors' that are referred to.

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By (user no longer on site)  over a year ago


"The conservative party definitely has a number of rabid wannabe leaders who'll utter ultra right-wing filth, to try to gain the support of the few thousand conservative party members (who are of course, not at all representative of the UK population). We've had discussion on LGBT issues, where some seem to view equality to be on a sliding scale, rather than absolute, as an example of how snippets of their true colours are being fed to those who want to hear such things.

When a country is so split, it's clear that the sensible thing to do is to elect a leader who is not going to widen the gulf still further but who would be someone who brings people together. Many people aren't really appreciative of cooperative styles of working - except politicians, when they need to get their government propped up by some other extremist organisation like the DUP.

The government created the mess, then May ensured that she prioritised the conservative party, over the country, whilst the brexit mess grew - all the time, as she refused to work collaboratively. Then the deal got voted down repeatedly.

Another hardliner will get more of the same, if they continue this, potentially taking on the role of absolute dictator, trying to run down the clock until Halloween.

The conservative party and members will take take much of the summer to get someone in place - whilst the clock is ticking and there's virtually no time left - many of them do not care.

Meanwhile, the harsh realities of what stoked people towards voting for brexit, the lack of appropriate infrastructure, including public services in the UK, continue to be neglected - if a hard brexit happens, then the population will generally be given even tougher conditions to have to endure for the foreseeable future. This despite whatever the swivel eyed types may sickly proclaim about the UK regaining its position in the world again. Mad."

True!

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