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Is our democracy fucked?
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They are called ‘the right honourable ‘ such and such , but are they? Expenses scandal of which they’ve not redeemed themselves or forgiven the press for exposing them. Exposed also for lies. Two main parties in disarray- is the system as we know it fucked?
Change is on the air- good or bad? |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"They are called ‘the right honourable ‘ such and such , but are they? Expenses scandal of which they’ve not redeemed themselves or forgiven the press for exposing them. Exposed also for lies. Two main parties in disarray- is the system as we know it fucked?
Change is on the air- good or bad?"
Democracy can’t be fucked because it is ongoing. People can join political party’s and party’s can get MP’s elected. Democracy will evolve as the country evolved.
We just seem to be going through a period of time where shouty and sweary, angry politics is polluting everything. We need a rainbow coalition of love between the nice party’s in order to drown out the needless noise from the far right and far left as they become ever more furious by the day. |
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Democracy - it's fluid, changes over time and the electorate get the opportunity to learn.
The UK Prime Minister is about to be picked by a few thousand Conservative party members, who cannot be said to be fully representative of the UK population.
Some people don't like it that any brexit, whatever its form or impact upon the country, hasn't happened. But many of those same people were absolutely in favour of UK sovereignty - parliament having power to do what's right for the UK. A bit of a conundrum for them, I guess. It was certainly clear that leaving the EU that we'd been politically and legally linked with for decades would not be simple and there was not just one way of doing it. It was facile for anyone to claim otherwise. If democracy is said to be 'broken' now, because such a complex undertaking was not effected to the satisfaction of someone like Farage, then it really cannot be used to make such a claim.
The governing party initiated and managed brexit all the way through - perhaps the claim should be that the conservative party is fucked! A dictatorial style, that isn't inclusive and wanted to impose on millions, would never be expected to get the best results. Collaborative, inclusive efforts work better. When you get a rigid politician in charge, who is very limited in their abilities, you'll achieve their standards of results. |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Newbury |
"They are called ‘the right honourable ‘ such and such , but are they? Expenses scandal of which they’ve not redeemed themselves or forgiven the press for exposing them. Exposed also for lies. Two main parties in disarray- is the system as we know it fucked?
Change is on the air- good or bad?
Democracy can’t be fucked because it is ongoing. People can join political party’s and party’s can get MP’s elected. Democracy will evolve as the country evolved.
We just seem to be going through a period of time where shouty and sweary, angry politics is polluting everything. We need a rainbow coalition of love between the nice party’s in order to drown out the needless noise from the far right and far left as they become ever more furious by the day."
Democracy can't be fucked because its ongoing? What if its ongoing in a deeply undemocratic framework (see: FPTP, the house of Lords)? What if its ongoing and yet the very people it purports to serve are being failed by it?
Yes, what we need is some nice centrists in smart suits with easily understandable soundbites to sooth the public whilst they lead them down the road to neoliberalism and strip the state of it's assets. 
Nothing was ever won for the people without considerable anger. Do you think that Nye Bevan would have achieved his aims and established our NHS were he not fueled by the burning injustices in society and his hatred for the Tory party?
Sadly, the only way that the working class achieve change is through struggle. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"They are called ‘the right honourable ‘ such and such , but are they? Expenses scandal of which they’ve not redeemed themselves or forgiven the press for exposing them. Exposed also for lies. Two main parties in disarray- is the system as we know it fucked?
Change is on the air- good or bad?
Democracy can’t be fucked because it is ongoing. People can join political party’s and party’s can get MP’s elected. Democracy will evolve as the country evolved.
We just seem to be going through a period of time where shouty and sweary, angry politics is polluting everything. We need a rainbow coalition of love between the nice party’s in order to drown out the needless noise from the far right and far left as they become ever more furious by the day."
.
I agree entirely. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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How many times does it need to be said....democracy is on the backfoot because 12 years of austerity government has made many of the general population insecure and angry. The divide between the poor and rich has widened enormously and opportunistic politicians have used this anger to forge a dangerous path that blames outsiders for this fear of the future. These politicians have bypassed traditional methods and have quite cleverly made a new klan by directly personalising their message via Facebook which makes these disaffected people feel that they are virtuous and patriotic and doing whats right for the nation. Unfortunately the mainstream politicians have reacted to this by joining in with the rhetoric and have found themselves foundering as they had opened up a pandoras box which they cant even begin to contemplate how to close the lid on. The current generation of tory mps are just not very good and dont seem to have any sense of what they are doing to the country.  |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"How many times does it need to be said....democracy is on the backfoot because 12 years of austerity government has made many of the general population insecure and angry. The divide between the poor and rich has widened enormously and opportunistic politicians have used this anger to forge a dangerous path that blames outsiders for this fear of the future. These politicians have bypassed traditional methods and have quite cleverly made a new klan by directly personalising their message via Facebook which makes these disaffected people feel that they are virtuous and patriotic and doing whats right for the nation. Unfortunately the mainstream politicians have reacted to this by joining in with the rhetoric and have found themselves foundering as they had opened up a pandoras box which they cant even begin to contemplate how to close the lid on. The current generation of tory mps are just not very good and dont seem to have any sense of what they are doing to the country. "
Bang on the money  |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Brexit in 4 sound-bytes:
* The financial sector sucks £1 trillion from taxpayers to cover its reckless greed
* The political wing of the financial sector brings in austerity, demonising people on benefits for draining the public purse
* Deflect attention by blaming it all on migrants and nasty foreigners in Brussels
* Pack up £1 trillion in assets and move them to the EU
To be continued. |
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"How many times does it need to be said....democracy is on the backfoot because 12 years of austerity government has made many of the general population insecure and angry. The divide between the poor and rich has widened enormously and opportunistic politicians have used this anger to forge a dangerous path that blames outsiders for this fear of the future. These politicians have bypassed traditional methods and have quite cleverly made a new klan by directly personalising their message via Facebook which makes these disaffected people feel that they are virtuous and patriotic and doing whats right for the nation. Unfortunately the mainstream politicians have reacted to this by joining in with the rhetoric and have found themselves foundering as they had opened up a pandoras box which they cant even begin to contemplate how to close the lid on. The current generation of tory mps are just not very good and dont seem to have any sense of what they are doing to the country. "
Pretty much spot on.. |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"They are called ‘the right honourable ‘ such and such , but are they? Expenses scandal of which they’ve not redeemed themselves or forgiven the press for exposing them. Exposed also for lies. Two main parties in disarray- is the system as we know it fucked?
Change is on the air- good or bad?
Democracy can’t be fucked because it is ongoing. People can join political party’s and party’s can get MP’s elected. Democracy will evolve as the country evolved.
We just seem to be going through a period of time where shouty and sweary, angry politics is polluting everything. We need a rainbow coalition of love between the nice party’s in order to drown out the needless noise from the far right and far left as they become ever more furious by the day."
So which are the nice parties lol,thay do not exist |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Democracy ATM usually means the majority gets governed by a party that a minority voted for.
I often wonder just what would happen if we chose our MPs as a form of jury service."
I said something similar in a previous post on a different thread... I'm afraid I don't trust any of them up to and including Farage, Corbyn, Johnson, Umunna and Cable. I now truly believe that all of them are just out for themselves and couldn't care less about anyone else. Perhaps its time we went back to the ancient greek way of electing politicians via a lottery, put everyone in the hat and draw the unlucky ones out...at least that way we have at least a possibility of getting a few honest people in Westminster! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"How many times does it need to be said....democracy is on the backfoot because 12 years of austerity government has made many of the general population insecure and angry. The divide between the poor and rich has widened enormously and opportunistic politicians have used this anger to forge a dangerous path that blames outsiders for this fear of the future. These politicians have bypassed traditional methods and have quite cleverly made a new klan by directly personalising their message via Facebook which makes these disaffected people feel that they are virtuous and patriotic and doing whats right for the nation. Unfortunately the mainstream politicians have reacted to this by joining in with the rhetoric and have found themselves foundering as they had opened up a pandoras box which they cant even begin to contemplate how to close the lid on. The current generation of tory mps are just not very good and dont seem to have any sense of what they are doing to the country. "
.
We wouldn't have needed 12 years of austerity if the previous labour government which was in power for 12 had managed the economy correctly.
It was these fuckers that gave us 12 years of austerity while hypocrite lefties slag off the Tory implementation of it!.
When labour leave us stone broke like they always do somebody has to cut outgoings. |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"How many times does it need to be said....democracy is on the backfoot because 12 years of austerity government has made many of the general population insecure and angry. The divide between the poor and rich has widened enormously and opportunistic politicians have used this anger to forge a dangerous path that blames outsiders for this fear of the future. These politicians have bypassed traditional methods and have quite cleverly made a new klan by directly personalising their message via Facebook which makes these disaffected people feel that they are virtuous and patriotic and doing whats right for the nation. Unfortunately the mainstream politicians have reacted to this by joining in with the rhetoric and have found themselves foundering as they had opened up a pandoras box which they cant even begin to contemplate how to close the lid on. The current generation of tory mps are just not very good and dont seem to have any sense of what they are doing to the country. .
We wouldn't have needed 12 years of austerity if the previous labour government which was in power for 12 had managed the economy correctly.
It was these fuckers that gave us 12 years of austerity while hypocrite lefties slag off the Tory implementation of it!.
When labour leave us stone broke like they always do somebody has to cut outgoings."
exactly couldnt have put it better myself. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"How many times does it need to be said....democracy is on the backfoot because 12 years of austerity government has made many of the general population insecure and angry. The divide between the poor and rich has widened enormously and opportunistic politicians have used this anger to forge a dangerous path that blames outsiders for this fear of the future. These politicians have bypassed traditional methods and have quite cleverly made a new klan by directly personalising their message via Facebook which makes these disaffected people feel that they are virtuous and patriotic and doing whats right for the nation. Unfortunately the mainstream politicians have reacted to this by joining in with the rhetoric and have found themselves foundering as they had opened up a pandoras box which they cant even begin to contemplate how to close the lid on. The current generation of tory mps are just not very good and dont seem to have any sense of what they are doing to the country. .
We wouldn't have needed 12 years of austerity if the previous labour government which was in power for 12 had managed the economy correctly.
It was these fuckers that gave us 12 years of austerity while hypocrite lefties slag off the Tory implementation of it!.
When labour leave us stone broke like they always do somebody has to cut outgoings."
Just a word or two into that little outburst of yours.
A global financial crash in which the UK was pivotal occurred in 2007/2008. This was a failure of successive Governments over the previous two decades. Gordon Brown chose to bail out UK banks which is now universally accepted was the right thing to do.
The last time any UK Government ran an operating surplus was under Tony Blair - that was in the 12 year window that you referred to.
Austerity has not worked. Since 2010, the gap between wealthy and ordinary folk has increased. The middle class has shrunk and more peoiple live in poverty, use foodbanks and are homeless than in 2010. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"How many times does it need to be said....democracy is on the backfoot because 12 years of austerity government has made many of the general population insecure and angry. The divide between the poor and rich has widened enormously and opportunistic politicians have used this anger to forge a dangerous path that blames outsiders for this fear of the future. These politicians have bypassed traditional methods and have quite cleverly made a new klan by directly personalising their message via Facebook which makes these disaffected people feel that they are virtuous and patriotic and doing whats right for the nation. Unfortunately the mainstream politicians have reacted to this by joining in with the rhetoric and have found themselves foundering as they had opened up a pandoras box which they cant even begin to contemplate how to close the lid on. The current generation of tory mps are just not very good and dont seem to have any sense of what they are doing to the country. .
We wouldn't have needed 12 years of austerity if the previous labour government which was in power for 12 had managed the economy correctly.
It was these fuckers that gave us 12 years of austerity while hypocrite lefties slag off the Tory implementation of it!.
When labour leave us stone broke like they always do somebody has to cut outgoings.
Just a word or two into that little outburst of yours.
A global financial crash in which the UK was pivotal occurred in 2007/2008. This was a failure of successive Governments over the previous two decades. Gordon Brown chose to bail out UK banks which is now universally accepted was the right thing to do.
The last time any UK Government ran an operating surplus was under Tony Blair - that was in the 12 year window that you referred to.
Austerity has not worked. Since 2010, the gap between wealthy and ordinary folk has increased. The middle class has shrunk and more peoiple live in poverty, use foodbanks and are homeless than in 2010. "
.
I suggest you go and actually look at when that surplus occurred and where budgets deficits were before the banking crises!
Thankyou and it wasn't an outburst just a rant  |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"How many times does it need to be said....democracy is on the backfoot because 12 years of austerity government has made many of the general population insecure and angry. The divide between the poor and rich has widened enormously and opportunistic politicians have used this anger to forge a dangerous path that blames outsiders for this fear of the future. These politicians have bypassed traditional methods and have quite cleverly made a new klan by directly personalising their message via Facebook which makes these disaffected people feel that they are virtuous and patriotic and doing whats right for the nation. Unfortunately the mainstream politicians have reacted to this by joining in with the rhetoric and have found themselves foundering as they had opened up a pandoras box which they cant even begin to contemplate how to close the lid on. The current generation of tory mps are just not very good and dont seem to have any sense of what they are doing to the country. .
We wouldn't have needed 12 years of austerity if the previous labour government which was in power for 12 had managed the economy correctly.
It was these fuckers that gave us 12 years of austerity while hypocrite lefties slag off the Tory implementation of it!.
When labour leave us stone broke like they always do somebody has to cut outgoings.
Just a word or two into that little outburst of yours.
A global financial crash in which the UK was pivotal occurred in 2007/2008. This was a failure of successive Governments over the previous two decades. Gordon Brown chose to bail out UK banks which is now universally accepted was the right thing to do.
The last time any UK Government ran an operating surplus was under Tony Blair - that was in the 12 year window that you referred to.
Austerity has not worked. Since 2010, the gap between wealthy and ordinary folk has increased. The middle class has shrunk and more peoiple live in poverty, use foodbanks and are homeless than in 2010. "
Easy to run a surplus when you hide a huge capital expenditure programme in PFI. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I'll give you a clue the first two years of the labour government saw net gains however borrowing had fallen every year under the Tories since 91, in 98 those net borrowings carried on falling to give two years of net surplus under labour and then the trend from 2001 was net borrowing up up up up until 2008 when it sky rocketed and then when labour was thrown out from the mess of there making under Tories and libdems net borrowing fell and continues to fall under Tories to reasonable levels.
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There seems to be a power cycle.
Dictatorships are overthrown by popular revolt (usually extremely violent) which spawn fledgling democracies, these democracies either quickly fail and are replaced by another dictatorship or mature. Mature democracies become corrupted and fall into states of oligarchy which in turn bread new dictatorships.
We in the west are witnessing a new age in the form of the supranational corporation taking over much of our part of the world while traditional oligarchs and dictators rule the rest of the world.
Politicians only reflect the society they operate in, so if we consider them to be corrupt it is because our society and democracy is corrupt. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"How many times does it need to be said....democracy is on the backfoot because 12 years of austerity government has made many of the general population insecure and angry. The divide between the poor and rich has widened enormously and opportunistic politicians have used this anger to forge a dangerous path that blames outsiders for this fear of the future. These politicians have bypassed traditional methods and have quite cleverly made a new klan by directly personalising their message via Facebook which makes these disaffected people feel that they are virtuous and patriotic and doing whats right for the nation. Unfortunately the mainstream politicians have reacted to this by joining in with the rhetoric and have found themselves foundering as they had opened up a pandoras box which they cant even begin to contemplate how to close the lid on. The current generation of tory mps are just not very good and dont seem to have any sense of what they are doing to the country. .
We wouldn't have needed 12 years of austerity if the previous labour government which was in power for 12 had managed the economy correctly.
It was these fuckers that gave us 12 years of austerity while hypocrite lefties slag off the Tory implementation of it!.
When labour leave us stone broke like they always do somebody has to cut outgoings.
Just a word or two into that little outburst of yours.
A global financial crash in which the UK was pivotal occurred in 2007/2008. This was a failure of successive Governments over the previous two decades. Gordon Brown chose to bail out UK banks which is now universally accepted was the right thing to do.
The last time any UK Government ran an operating surplus was under Tony Blair - that was in the 12 year window that you referred to.
Austerity has not worked. Since 2010, the gap between wealthy and ordinary folk has increased. The middle class has shrunk and more peoiple live in poverty, use foodbanks and are homeless than in 2010.
Easy to run a surplus when you hide a huge capital expenditure programme in PFI. "
.
I was pointing that out to somebody on here yesterday via the NHS.
Many regions are billions in debt from labour PFI schemes and will be paying hundreds of millions in interest for decades to come. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"How many times does it need to be said....democracy is on the backfoot because 12 years of austerity government has made many of the general population insecure and angry. The divide between the poor and rich has widened enormously and opportunistic politicians have used this anger to forge a dangerous path that blames outsiders for this fear of the future. These politicians have bypassed traditional methods and have quite cleverly made a new klan by directly personalising their message via Facebook which makes these disaffected people feel that they are virtuous and patriotic and doing whats right for the nation. Unfortunately the mainstream politicians have reacted to this by joining in with the rhetoric and have found themselves foundering as they had opened up a pandoras box which they cant even begin to contemplate how to close the lid on. The current generation of tory mps are just not very good and dont seem to have any sense of what they are doing to the country. .
We wouldn't have needed 12 years of austerity if the previous labour government which was in power for 12 had managed the economy correctly.
It was these fuckers that gave us 12 years of austerity while hypocrite lefties slag off the Tory implementation of it!.
When labour leave us stone broke like they always do somebody has to cut outgoings.
Just a word or two into that little outburst of yours.
A global financial crash in which the UK was pivotal occurred in 2007/2008. This was a failure of successive Governments over the previous two decades. Gordon Brown chose to bail out UK banks which is now universally accepted was the right thing to do.
The last time any UK Government ran an operating surplus was under Tony Blair - that was in the 12 year window that you referred to.
Austerity has not worked. Since 2010, the gap between wealthy and ordinary folk has increased. The middle class has shrunk and more peoiple live in poverty, use foodbanks and are homeless than in 2010.
Easy to run a surplus when you hide a huge capital expenditure programme in PFI. .
I was pointing that out to somebody on here yesterday via the NHS.
Many regions are billions in debt from labour PFI schemes and will be paying hundreds of millions in interest for decades to come."
I absolutely agree that PFI was very poorly implemented in the long term planning but years of balancing the books by the previous tory administrations, and by that I mean austerity budgeting had left this country in a complete and utter mess with no plans to invest in improving decrepit and out of date schools and hospitals. The PFI initiative allowed funding to be found for this modernisation programme. If you want to know what life was like before that I can tell you that one of my local hospitals was a collection of second world war era low rise buildings with a lot of prefabs tacked onto it over a sprawling site. Its replacement is an over budget but incredibly well designed and much safer modern state of the art hospital. Now if you are saying that this should not have been built because of the poor funding structure well I would like to know what your alternative concept is because for the life of me I cannot see a realistic alternative. The advantages of PFI were that the onus was on the developers to work to a high standard and budget accordingly because they were private companies who knew what they were doing. How could it have been done better?  |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
How anyone can defend PFI I do not know.
Governments can borrow money at cheaper rates than commercial developers.
PFI is simply political window dressing of the public accounts.
The taxpayer ends up paying through the nose for something that could have been paid for at a fraction of the cost.
All of it intended to give a politician some stats to dupe the public with at the next election.
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Newbury |
"How anyone can defend PFI I do not know.
Governments can borrow money at cheaper rates than commercial developers.
PFI is simply political window dressing of the public accounts.
The taxpayer ends up paying through the nose for something that could have been paid for at a fraction of the cost.
All of it intended to give a politician some stats to dupe the public with at the next election.
"
But its precisely the shit you'll get if you vote Lib Dem or the (now defunct ) ChangeUK... |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Tory, Labour, Lib Dem - they have all seduced the public with the same con trick.
"Look at all the new infrastructure we delivered in our term of office; look at how good we are at balancing the books - keep voting for us (just don't ask how you are paying for it)."
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Newbury |
"Tory, Labour, Lib Dem - they have all seduced the public with the same con trick.
"Look at all the new infrastructure we delivered in our term of office; look at how good we are at balancing the books - keep voting for us (just don't ask how you are paying for it)."
"
New Labour did. Labour are currently standing on quite a different manifesto.... |
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