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What do you think about natural immunity?

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By *hagTonight OP   Man 36 weeks ago

From the land of haribos.

Did you also hear about the study? Apparently israel have done a study and the outcome of it shows that natural immunity wins.

What they were able to do was to get 2 groups, one group that havent had the vaccine and the other group who have had the vaccine.

Although many had both, the so called hybrid immunity, so therefor they could compare the two.

They found that people with the natural infection, were 13 times less likely to get reinfected.

When it come to symptomatic infection, people who had the natural infection, but werent vaccinated were 27 times less likely to get symptomatic infection.

What is your view about their study and natural immunity? I agree that natural immunity is superior

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By *im RoyleCouple 36 weeks ago

chester

Mmm natural immunity to measles? Polio? Etc etc.

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough

Shag, do you understand why the vaccination was rolled out originally?

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By *im RoyleCouple 36 weeks ago

chester


"Shag, do you understand why the vaccination was rolled out originally?"

To stop deaths!!

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By *irldnCouple 36 weeks ago

Brighton


"Mmm natural immunity to measles? Polio? Etc etc. "

The OP is about Covid right?

My reading of the OP is that unvaccinated people who caught Covid are less likely to get reinfected.

Would be good to get the source for this.

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By *im RoyleCouple 36 weeks ago

chester


"Mmm natural immunity to measles? Polio? Etc etc.

The OP is about Covid right?

My reading of the OP is that unvaccinated people who caught Covid are less likely to get reinfected.

Would be good to get the source for this."

They didn’t say covid.

And no evidence of the next point

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By *irldnCouple 36 weeks ago

Brighton


"Mmm natural immunity to measles? Polio? Etc etc.

The OP is about Covid right?

My reading of the OP is that unvaccinated people who caught Covid are less likely to get reinfected.

Would be good to get the source for this.

They didn’t say covid.

And no evidence of the next point "

Well the OP can clarify but I strongly suspect this is about Covid.

Also, without a source to look it up myself I am going to have to take the OP at face value and it says...


"When it come to symptomatic infection, people who had the natural infection, but werent vaccinated were 27 times less likely to get symptomatic infection."

So what else does that mean?

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By *irldnCouple 36 weeks ago

Brighton


"Mmm natural immunity to measles? Polio? Etc etc.

The OP is about Covid right?

My reading of the OP is that unvaccinated people who caught Covid are less likely to get reinfected.

Would be good to get the source for this.

They didn’t say covid.

And no evidence of the next point

Well the OP can clarify but I strongly suspect this is about Covid.

Also, without a source to look it up myself I am going to have to take the OP at face value and it says...

When it come to symptomatic infection, people who had the natural infection, but werent vaccinated were 27 times less likely to get symptomatic infection.

So what else does that mean?"

Oops quoted wrong bit...


"They found that people with the natural infection, were 13 times less likely to get reinfected."

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By *im RoyleCouple 36 weeks ago

chester

How the feck would they know with people showing no symptoms but passing it on??? Ffs

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By *hagTonight OP   Man 36 weeks ago

From the land of haribos.

[Removed by poster at 18/09/23 08:46:59]

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By *hagTonight OP   Man 36 weeks ago

From the land of haribos.


"Mmm natural immunity to measles? Polio? Etc etc.

The OP is about Covid right?

My reading of the OP is that unvaccinated people who caught Covid are less likely to get reinfected.

Would be good to get the source for this.

They didn’t say covid.

And no evidence of the next point

Well the OP can clarify but I strongly suspect this is about Covid.

Also, without a source to look it up myself I am going to have to take the OP at face value and it says...

When it come to symptomatic infection, people who had the natural infection, but werent vaccinated were 27 times less likely to get symptomatic infection.

So what else does that mean?

Oops quoted wrong bit...

They found that people with the natural infection, were 13 times less likely to get reinfected."

Yes. I quoted abit from what john said was from john cambells video called natural immunity wins https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IiA1S6NvCo4 it would be interesting to see what you think as he talked about the papers from the study

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By *im RoyleCouple 36 weeks ago

chester

Idiots “researching” !! Leave it to the actual experts eh????

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By *ister_EMan 36 weeks ago

Hayling Island

It is an indisputable scientific fact that the deceased are 100% naturaly immune to all viruses!

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By *ittleMissCaliWoman 36 weeks ago

trouble most likely, or creating it :)

I've read quite a few studies of late where they did find that natural vs just vaccinated was a higher protection against re infection.

However they all stated that the safest protection was to have the vaccine.. due to not knowing if you would be one of those that was seriously ill.

The main focus on the studies I read was to show the importance of including previous infection in policy making .. ie like the covid passes would take recent infection instead of a vaccine.

Most have also stated that hybrid protection was best of all.

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By *host63Man 36 weeks ago

Bedfont Feltham


"Mmm natural immunity to measles? Polio? Etc etc.

The OP is about Covid right?

My reading of the OP is that unvaccinated people who caught Covid are less likely to get reinfected.

Would be good to get the source for this."

ReLly rhenium how ome my sister has caught it three times and numerous people I know also have.

And yes I was vaccinated but missed my third jab and caught it on holiday in France.

So, like many studies such things are useful but in a strictly controlled environment only is an indication not the be all and end all.

In science there are no absolute answers only possibilities.

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By *bi HaiveMan 36 weeks ago
Forum Mod

Cheeseville, Somerset

My take?

Natural immunity is great if you have it.

Pretty shit (and potentially fatal) if you don't.

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By *ootnootboopCouple 36 weeks ago

Cheshire


"My take?

Natural immunity is great if you have it.

Pretty shit (and potentially fatal) if you don't.

"

Pretty good take there...

Why chance it we say

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By *host63Man 36 weeks ago

Bedfont Feltham


"My take?

Natural immunity is great if you have it.

Pretty shit (and potentially fatal) if you don't.

Remember the story about the triathle who refused the jab because he was so fit and would easily shrug it off because his bodies natural immunity would save him?

Well he tested that theory and is now playing a harp or at then end of a demon welding pitchfork.

Pretty good take there...

Why chance it we say"

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By *cnugatugMan 36 weeks ago

Chatham

Wasn't vaccinated but caught covid didn't have to see a doc or Go to hospital I kinda just got over it within a few days must of been naturally immune to it or just one hell of an immune system definitely had covid tested positive 3 times have been vaccinated since due to work protocols

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By *ophieslutTV/TS 36 weeks ago

Central

[Removed by poster at 18/09/23 21:23:57]

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By *ophieslutTV/TS 36 weeks ago

Central

This John Campbell doesn't even have the training of a medical Doctor, so isn't the type of individual that I would consult. And, especially as he's been criticized for promotion of misinformation. Ivermectin was touted by some in the pandemic, despite its risks and it has no evidence backing it. I'm sure most of us recall that.

In any event, there have been multiple studies of immunity gained from vaccines and infections. Infection acquired immunity is not guaranteed and, even if acquired, reinfection has potentially a weakened body that it may attack. Long Covid is a parallel symptom of infection, that may continue for years, outlasting immunity but you can be certain that vaccine derived immunity will not sustain Long Covid. Organ damage may result from Covid. I'd rather not impair my organs, especially as there are no guarantees of getting transplants.

Of course, 1 of the consequences of potentially getting infection-derived immunity, is that you may need hospitalisation and may die. Those are consequences that are avoidable and highly costly to others, potentially helping others to die too. I'd not be comfortable with that.

In any event, there are mixed conclusions from the research. As Campbell doesn't appear to have appropriate expertise in epidemiology etc, that I'd not even consider looking anywhere else other than in the recognised professional literature, for evidence that's peer-reviewed. Certainty not on a quack's paradise, where such dubious charlatans may promote unsubstantiated points that they earn money from, without any of the oversight, responsibilities or honesty that true professionals and global networks of expertise invest.

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By (user no longer on site) 36 weeks ago

I may have natural immunity to all viruses. I haven’t had even a cold never mind Covid symptoms, in over 10 years. However I’m also exceptionally good at keeping away from people, wore a mask and was a sanitising obsessive during the pandemic, travelled alone by car and I’m never around children, so it’s more likely just luck and from being careful. I still don’t even touch stair banisters, door handles and petrol pumps etc with my bare hands.

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By *esYesOMGYes!Man 36 weeks ago

M20


"How the feck would they know with people showing no symptoms but passing it on??? Ffs "

Full natural immunity fills the body with T-cells which recognise the original pathogen and its mutations, they trigger the production of C-cells, specifically designed to hunt and kill it.

This body attacks the pathogen before it gets chance to enter a suitable cell and replicate.

Also, a virus relies on symptoms to spread, “coughs and sneezes spreads diseases” turns out to be true

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By *ensualswinger1Man 36 weeks ago

llanelli

As somebody pointed out .. natural immunity to Polio, Measles etc.

These are traditional vaccines and very very different to the Covid vaccine.

If you rely on Pharma and rubbish food, lack of excersise to dictate your life then your immunity will be compromised.

People can't even be bothered to wash their cars these days let alone look after themselves.....Ramming loads of vaccines into kids is a recipe for disaster. The body is the ultimate machine, you put something foreign into it and there will be a reaction.

Pharma is all about profit . ..they want you sick

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By *hagTonight OP   Man 36 weeks ago

From the land of haribos.


"Mmm natural immunity to measles? Polio? Etc etc.

The OP is about Covid right?

My reading of the OP is that unvaccinated people who caught Covid are less likely to get reinfected.

Would be good to get the source for this.

They didn’t say covid.

And no evidence of the next point

Well the OP can clarify but I strongly suspect this is about Covid.

Also, without a source to look it up myself I am going to have to take the OP at face value and it says...

When it come to symptomatic infection, people who had the natural infection, but werent vaccinated were 27 times less likely to get symptomatic infection.

So what else does that mean?

Oops quoted wrong bit...

They found that people with the natural infection, were 13 times less likely to get reinfected.Yes. I quoted abit from what john said was from john cambells video called natural immunity wins https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IiA1S6NvCo4 it would be interesting to see what you think as he talked about the papers from the study "

I also want to add that yes, it is about covid as well.

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By *esYesOMGYes!Man 36 weeks ago

M20


"This John Campbell doesn't even have the training of a medical Doctor, so isn't the type of individual that I would consult. And, especially as he's been criticized for promotion of misinformation. Ivermectin was touted by some in the pandemic, despite its risks and it has no evidence backing it. I'm sure most of us recall that.

In any event, there have been multiple studies of immunity gained from vaccines and infections. Infection acquired immunity is not guaranteed and, even if acquired, reinfection has potentially a weakened body that it may attack. Long Covid is a parallel symptom of infection, that may continue for years, outlasting immunity but you can be certain that vaccine derived immunity will not sustain Long Covid. Organ damage may result from Covid. I'd rather not impair my organs, especially as there are no guarantees of getting transplants.

Of course, 1 of the consequences of potentially getting infection-derived immunity, is that you may need hospitalisation and may die. Those are consequences that are avoidable and highly costly to others, potentially helping others to die too. I'd not be comfortable with that.

In any event, there are mixed conclusions from the research. As Campbell doesn't appear to have appropriate expertise in epidemiology etc, that I'd not even consider looking anywhere else other than in the recognised professional literature, for evidence that's peer-reviewed. Certainty not on a quack's paradise, where such dubious charlatans may promote unsubstantiated points that they earn money from, without any of the oversight, responsibilities or honesty that true professionals and global networks of expertise invest. "

Epidemiology was introduced in to nursing by Florence Nightingale and became sophisticated enough about 100 years ago to crack how TB was spreading.

Since then nurses learn epidemiology. They are taught to be detectives, not just wipe our butts.

This man has a long career of teaching them it.

Give him some credit.

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"I've read quite a few studies of late where they did find that natural vs just vaccinated was a higher protection against re infection.

...

"

And if the infection was recent, it'd be more up to date than a vaccine (so to speak).

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough

[Removed by poster at 18/09/23 23:11:48]

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By *ophieslutTV/TS 36 weeks ago

Central


"This John Campbell doesn't even have the training of a medical Doctor, so isn't the type of individual that I would consult. And, especially as he's been criticized for promotion of misinformation. Ivermectin was touted by some in the pandemic, despite its risks and it has no evidence backing it. I'm sure most of us recall that.

In any event, there have been multiple studies of immunity gained from vaccines and infections. Infection acquired immunity is not guaranteed and, even if acquired, reinfection has potentially a weakened body that it may attack. Long Covid is a parallel symptom of infection, that may continue for years, outlasting immunity but you can be certain that vaccine derived immunity will not sustain Long Covid. Organ damage may result from Covid. I'd rather not impair my organs, especially as there are no guarantees of getting transplants.

Of course, 1 of the consequences of potentially getting infection-derived immunity, is that you may need hospitalisation and may die. Those are consequences that are avoidable and highly costly to others, potentially helping others to die too. I'd not be comfortable with that.

In any event, there are mixed conclusions from the research. As Campbell doesn't appear to have appropriate expertise in epidemiology etc, that I'd not even consider looking anywhere else other than in the recognised professional literature, for evidence that's peer-reviewed. Certainty not on a quack's paradise, where such dubious charlatans may promote unsubstantiated points that they earn money from, without any of the oversight, responsibilities or honesty that true professionals and global networks of expertise invest.

Epidemiology was introduced in to nursing by Florence Nightingale and became sophisticated enough about 100 years ago to crack how TB was spreading.

Since then nurses learn epidemiology. They are taught to be detectives, not just wipe our butts.

This man has a long career of teaching them it.

Give him some credit."

I don't fail to duly credit nurses but I avoid this quack, relying instead directly on credible research sources. He's unreliable and has severe limitations, including those covered above.

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"How the feck would they know with people showing no symptoms but passing it on??? Ffs

Full natural immunity fills the body with T-cells which recognise the original pathogen and its mutations, they trigger the production of C-cells, specifically designed to hunt and kill it.

This body attacks the pathogen before it gets chance to enter a suitable cell and replicate.

Also, a virus relies on symptoms to spread, “coughs and sneezes spreads diseases” turns out to be true"

C cells is a typo?

Lymphocytes (white blood cells) produce B cells (antibodies and memory cells) and T cells aka killer T/cytotoxic cells.

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By *esYesOMGYes!Man 36 weeks ago

M20


"How the feck would they know with people showing no symptoms but passing it on??? Ffs

Full natural immunity fills the body with T-cells which recognise the original pathogen and its mutations, they trigger the production of C-cells, specifically designed to hunt and kill it.

This body attacks the pathogen before it gets chance to enter a suitable cell and replicate.

Also, a virus relies on symptoms to spread, “coughs and sneezes spreads diseases” turns out to be true

C cells is a typo?

Lymphocytes (white blood cells) produce B cells (antibodies and memory cells) and T cells aka killer T/cytotoxic cells."

Cheers I shouldn’t text late

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By *esYesOMGYes!Man 36 weeks ago

M20

“And if the infection was recent, it'd be more up to date than a vaccine (so to speak).”

I read a study a couple of years ago. Someone who had contracted sars bird flu in 2003 and had not had covid, they already had full natural immunity to covid. Covid is only about 80% alike to bird flu.

Natural immunity is awesome.

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By *ad NannaWoman 36 weeks ago

East London

My family must have a terrible immune system then as they keep getting viruses that put them in bed for ages.

I'm interested to see what happens this winter.

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"My family must have a terrible immune system then as they keep getting viruses that put them in bed for ages.

I'm interested to see what happens this winter."

Tell me they're all men Nanna

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By *ad NannaWoman 36 weeks ago

East London


"My family must have a terrible immune system then as they keep getting viruses that put them in bed for ages.

I'm interested to see what happens this winter.

Tell me they're all men Nanna "

Nope, male and female of different ages.

Two Christmases ruined because half my immediate family were ill in bed.

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"Mmm natural immunity to measles? Polio? Etc etc. "

Relevance?

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By *o new WinksMan 36 weeks ago

BSE


"This John Campbell doesn't even have the training of a medical Doctor, so isn't the type of individual that I would consult. And, especially as he's been criticized for promotion of misinformation. Ivermectin was touted by some in the pandemic, despite its risks and it has no evidence backing it. I'm sure most of us recall that.

In any event, there have been multiple studies of immunity gained from vaccines and infections. Infection acquired immunity is not guaranteed and, even if acquired, reinfection has potentially a weakened body that it may attack. Long Covid is a parallel symptom of infection, that may continue for years, outlasting immunity but you can be certain that vaccine derived immunity will not sustain Long Covid. Organ damage may result from Covid. I'd rather not impair my organs, especially as there are no guarantees of getting transplants.

Of course, 1 of the consequences of potentially getting infection-derived immunity, is that you may need hospitalisation and may die. Those are consequences that are avoidable and highly costly to others, potentially helping others to die too. I'd not be comfortable with that.

In any event, there are mixed conclusions from the research. As Campbell doesn't appear to have appropriate expertise in epidemiology etc, that I'd not even consider looking anywhere else other than in the recognised professional literature, for evidence that's peer-reviewed. Certainty not on a quack's paradise, where such dubious charlatans may promote unsubstantiated points that they earn money from, without any of the oversight, responsibilities or honesty that true professionals and global networks of expertise invest.

Epidemiology was introduced in to nursing by Florence Nightingale and became sophisticated enough about 100 years ago to crack how TB was spreading.

Since then nurses learn epidemiology. They are taught to be detectives, not just wipe our butts.

This man has a long career of teaching them it.

Give him some credit.

I don't fail to duly credit nurses but I avoid this quack, relying instead directly on credible research sources. He's unreliable and has severe limitations, including those covered above. "

Ah, you avoid this "quack" but are somehow able to comment on the validity of his content?

If you saw any you'd see he references all the latest studies and takes people through them in lay terms.

As for his misrepresentation of the efficacy of treatments, he has apologised publicly for that and explained how he came to the wrong conclusions.

Spoiler alert...it was listening to "The Science".

Any who, keep avoiding the quacks.

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By *ebauchedDeviantsPt2Couple 36 weeks ago

Cumbria


"This John Campbell doesn't even have the training of a medical Doctor, so isn't the type of individual that I would consult. And, especially as he's been criticized for promotion of misinformation. Ivermectin was touted by some in the pandemic, despite its risks and it has no evidence backing it. I'm sure most of us recall that.

In any event, there have been multiple studies of immunity gained from vaccines and infections. Infection acquired immunity is not guaranteed and, even if acquired, reinfection has potentially a weakened body that it may attack. Long Covid is a parallel symptom of infection, that may continue for years, outlasting immunity but you can be certain that vaccine derived immunity will not sustain Long Covid. Organ damage may result from Covid. I'd rather not impair my organs, especially as there are no guarantees of getting transplants.

Of course, 1 of the consequences of potentially getting infection-derived immunity, is that you may need hospitalisation and may die. Those are consequences that are avoidable and highly costly to others, potentially helping others to die too. I'd not be comfortable with that.

In any event, there are mixed conclusions from the research. As Campbell doesn't appear to have appropriate expertise in epidemiology etc, that I'd not even consider looking anywhere else other than in the recognised professional literature, for evidence that's peer-reviewed. Certainty not on a quack's paradise, where such dubious charlatans may promote unsubstantiated points that they earn money from, without any of the oversight, responsibilities or honesty that true professionals and global networks of expertise invest.

Epidemiology was introduced in to nursing by Florence Nightingale and became sophisticated enough about 100 years ago to crack how TB was spreading.

Since then nurses learn epidemiology. They are taught to be detectives, not just wipe our butts.

This man has a long career of teaching them it.

Give him some credit.

I don't fail to duly credit nurses but I avoid this quack, relying instead directly on credible research sources. He's unreliable and has severe limitations, including those covered above.

Ah, you avoid this "quack" but are somehow able to comment on the validity of his content?

If you saw any you'd see he references all the latest studies and takes people through them in lay terms.

As for his misrepresentation of the efficacy of treatments, he has apologised publicly for that and explained how he came to the wrong conclusions.

Spoiler alert...it was listening to "The Science".

Any who, keep avoiding the quacks. "

John is an interesting chap, decent enough nurse but like many people he has a weakness for being told how great he is.

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By *ucka39Man 36 weeks ago

Newcastle

Natural immunity wins by isolating the infection rate...

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By *o new WinksMan 36 weeks ago

BSE


"

John is an interesting chap, decent enough nurse but like many people he has a weakness for being told how great he is."

I can't speak to that. I do watch his overviews with an objective eye and, whilst he does have a bias which is shown in his choice of studies, he seems to present them fairly and simply for the lay man.

It is frustrating when people criticise without having watched any of his output.

The worst is when they sat that, as a nurse, he is unqualified to do this.

I would argue that those inside the health care bubble are more biased in their assessment and that why I don't listen to drug peddlers.

Ivor Cummins, for example, is an engineer and his analysis of the government statistics is enlightened as he approaches from a different perspective. If you haven't watched his Covid content, it's worth a watch.

Doctors are invested in the allopathic model of "care of the sick" and do not have a rounded view of their subject. They are a product of the pharmaceutical sponsored medical education system and risk discipline procedures if they do not follow "guidelines".

How can you expect these people to be unbiased in their assessment of what went on in the pandemic.

The "quacks" are able to quack because their livelihoods do not depend on following big pharma's narrative.

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By *hagTonight OP   Man 36 weeks ago

From the land of haribos.


"This John Campbell doesn't even have the training of a medical Doctor, so isn't the type of individual that I would consult. And, especially as he's been criticized for promotion of misinformation. Ivermectin was touted by some in the pandemic, despite its risks and it has no evidence backing it. I'm sure most of us recall that.

In any event, there have been multiple studies of immunity gained from vaccines and infections. Infection acquired immunity is not guaranteed and, even if acquired, reinfection has potentially a weakened body that it may attack. Long Covid is a parallel symptom of infection, that may continue for years, outlasting immunity but you can be certain that vaccine derived immunity will not sustain Long Covid. Organ damage may result from Covid. I'd rather not impair my organs, especially as there are no guarantees of getting transplants.

Of course, 1 of the consequences of potentially getting infection-derived immunity, is that you may need hospitalisation and may die. Those are consequences that are avoidable and highly costly to others, potentially helping others to die too. I'd not be comfortable with that.

In any event, there are mixed conclusions from the research. As Campbell doesn't appear to have appropriate expertise in epidemiology etc, that I'd not even consider looking anywhere else other than in the recognised professional literature, for evidence that's peer-reviewed. Certainty not on a quack's paradise, where such dubious charlatans may promote unsubstantiated points that they earn money from, without any of the oversight, responsibilities or honesty that true professionals and global networks of expertise invest.

Epidemiology was introduced in to nursing by Florence Nightingale and became sophisticated enough about 100 years ago to crack how TB was spreading.

Since then nurses learn epidemiology. They are taught to be detectives, not just wipe our butts.

This man has a long career of teaching them it.

Give him some credit.

I don't fail to duly credit nurses but I avoid this quack, relying instead directly on credible research sources. He's unreliable and has severe limitations, including those covered above.

Ah, you avoid this "quack" but are somehow able to comment on the validity of his content?

If you saw any you'd see he references all the latest studies and takes people through them in lay terms.

As for his misrepresentation of the efficacy of treatments, he has apologised publicly for that and explained how he came to the wrong conclusions.

Spoiler alert...it was listening to "The Science".

Any who, keep avoiding the quacks.

John is an interesting chap, decent enough nurse but like many people he has a weakness for being told how great he is."

John always backs it up with data that is available for everyone to see, like he did with the study in israel. I wonder what people thinks of his way of showing it this way?

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By *o new WinksMan 36 weeks ago

BSE


".John always backs it up with data that is available for everyone to see, like he did with the study in israel. I wonder what people thinks of his way of showing it this way? "

I find the whole pen and paper thing tedious.

His delivery is a bit repetitive.

But he is aiming at the average, or less than average, person in the street and his aim seems to be education.

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By *ittleMissCaliWoman 36 weeks ago

trouble most likely, or creating it :)


"As somebody pointed out .. natural immunity to Polio, Measles etc.

These are traditional vaccines and very very different to the Covid vaccine.

If you rely on Pharma and rubbish food, lack of excersise to dictate your life then your immunity will be compromised.

People can't even be bothered to wash their cars these days let alone look after themselves.....Ramming loads of vaccines into kids is a recipe for disaster. The body is the ultimate machine, you put something foreign into it and there will be a reaction.

Pharma is all about profit . ..they want you sick"

its people not getting their children vaccinated that has led to a recent increase in diseases such as measles and mumps... even polio has been on the rise.

As more and more parents are refusing to let their children be vaccinated.

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By *entlemanrogueMan 36 weeks ago

Grangemouth

i had heard a gmfew months back that countries where little to no vaccones where given to the populace had done extremely well with natural immunity, and later watched a video where Bill Gates was saying the same thing.

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By *hagTonight OP   Man 36 weeks ago

From the land of haribos.


".John always backs it up with data that is available for everyone to see, like he did with the study in israel. I wonder what people thinks of his way of showing it this way?

I find the whole pen and paper thing tedious.

His delivery is a bit repetitive.

But he is aiming at the average, or less than average, person in the street and his aim seems to be education.

"

Yes, it can be that too. I find it is good and fun, like when sometimes he draws diagrams, he can explain a complex thing in such a way that everyone can understand it

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By *oquars19458Man 36 weeks ago

sheffield


"As somebody pointed out .. natural immunity to Polio, Measles etc.

These are traditional vaccines and very very different to the Covid vaccine.

If you rely on Pharma and rubbish food, lack of excersise to dictate your life then your immunity will be compromised.

People can't even be bothered to wash their cars these days let alone look after themselves.....Ramming loads of vaccines into kids is a recipe for disaster. The body is the ultimate machine, you put something foreign into it and there will be a reaction.

Pharma is all about profit . ..they want you sick"

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By *heAverageForumUserMan 36 weeks ago

Just Here


"Wasn't vaccinated but caught covid didn't have to see a doc or Go to hospital I kinda just got over it within a few days must of been naturally immune to it or just one hell of an immune system definitely had covid tested positive 3 times have been vaccinated since due to work protocols"

Work protocols? Please explain this for me

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"Natural immunity wins by isolating the infection rate..."

Elaborate please

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By *ehindHerEyesCouple 36 weeks ago

SomewhereOnlyWeKnow

All I have to say on it is at the time I didn't fancy my chances of catching a potentially fatal virus over risking myself to develop natural immunity, because let's face it when it first came about noone knew exactly how anyone would fair if they caught it, and many saw great tragedy with their loved ones.

If you declined the vaccines great that was your choice and what you thought was best thing to do for you, sone if us had the vaccines because that was our choice and we did what we thought was best to do.

Can we just build a bridge and get over it, too much was lost by too many people in either camp but some just can't let it go and keep rehashing it.

Tinder

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By *hGlobbitsMan 36 weeks ago

Leeds

It's alright if you don't mind sacrificing your parents/grandarents/immunocompromised friends and relatives to get it.

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"It's alright if you don't mind sacrificing your parents/grandarents/immunocompromised friends and relatives to get it. "

That argument was only valid during the pandemic of a novel pathogen.

Now you'll just avoid them when poorly. Just like you would if infected by any pathogen.

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By (user no longer on site) 36 weeks ago

[Removed by poster at 19/09/23 15:34:21]

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By (user no longer on site) 36 weeks ago

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"It's alright if you don't mind sacrificing your parents/grandarents/immunocompromised friends and relatives to get it. "

Really poor logic..

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By *iss SinWoman 36 weeks ago

portchester

I think that’s natural immunity is real

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By *ools and the brainCouple 36 weeks ago

couple, us we him her.


"It's alright if you don't mind sacrificing your parents/grandarents/immunocompromised friends and relatives to get it.

Really poor logic.."

I think that's the point he was making.

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By *hoenix CoupleCouple 36 weeks ago

Stokesley

We are currently suffering from covid. A new strain? The best thing will be hopefully building up some near future immunity. We are both quite ill and a week with no work (self employed). Everyone has their own reasons for getting a jab or not, a bit like flu jab.

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By *ust RachelTV/TS 36 weeks ago

Eastbourne

I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school.

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school."

What a stupid comparison..

Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.

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By (user no longer on site) 36 weeks ago

[Removed by poster at 20/09/23 13:03:01]

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By *uietbloke67Man 36 weeks ago

outside your bedroom window ;-)

What is this natural immunity you speak of...can I buy it?

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By *ortyairCouple 36 weeks ago

Wallasey


"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school.

What a stupid comparison..

Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it."

So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x

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By *uietbloke67Man 36 weeks ago

outside your bedroom window ;-)


"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school.

What a stupid comparison..

Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x"

I think you have to be born with this natural immunity type, you know just like stupidity, it's a pre-defined gene.

Well I think that because I've just been to Tesco and they had no stock and didn't know what it was.

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school.

What a stupid comparison..

Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x"

I was replying specifically to the OPs post that people do not develop natural immunity to TB which infact they do....

TB can be a very dangerous disease and people should absolutely be vaccinated for it.

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school.

What a stupid comparison..

Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x

I think you have to be born with this natural immunity type, you know just like stupidity, it's a pre-defined gene.

Well I think that because I've just been to Tesco and they had no stock and didn't know what it was."

Another nonsensical post

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By *heAverageForumUserMan 36 weeks ago

Just Here

Remember when they told us having no symptoms was one of the symptoms

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By *uietbloke67Man 36 weeks ago

outside your bedroom window ;-)


"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school.

What a stupid comparison..

Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x

I think you have to be born with this natural immunity type, you know just like stupidity, it's a pre-defined gene.

Well I think that because I've just been to Tesco and they had no stock and didn't know what it was.

Another nonsensical post

"

Do you think so....you'd think with all this cancer kicking about for thousands of years, the body would have developed a natural immunity to that as well.

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By *itaminMan 36 weeks ago

Felistowe

Letting our bodies do their natural thing and form their own resistance to viruses, isn't very profitable for drug companies and those who have stakes in them.

Shock horror.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS 36 weeks ago

Central


"Letting our bodies do their natural thing and form their own resistance to viruses, isn't very profitable for drug companies and those who have stakes in them.

Shock horror. "

Nor is it reliable for people. We may not develop any, nor a reliable, immune response that's effective, from infections . We may get irreparable damage to organs and their failure, or death instead.

Vaccines give a precise, measured dose that have predictable immune responses . We'll know the proportion of those with good effective immunity, how much death and serious illness are prevented and are able to see the cost effectiveness of vaccination versus the preventable damage.

Vaccines or infections trigger the same immune systems responses. Millions of lives have been and are secured. Countless grief prevented. It's tragic that singular acts by the likes of the fraudulent peoples' acts, like the discredited Wakefield pose such threats to the wellbeing of humanity. All whilst we have the technology and medical expertise to keep us safe.

We'll undoubtedly have future pandemics and we should prepare for them, not losing the experience that we've gained. Vaccines will almost certainly be a big part of this.

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield

[Removed by poster at 20/09/23 21:21:06]

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school.

What a stupid comparison..

Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x

I think you have to be born with this natural immunity type, you know just like stupidity, it's a pre-defined gene.

Well I think that because I've just been to Tesco and they had no stock and didn't know what it was.

Another nonsensical post

Do you think so....you'd think with all this cancer kicking about for thousands of years, the body would have developed a natural immunity to that as well.

"

Fist of all Cancer is not an infectious disease..

For the vast majority of human history the lifespan has been so short that cancer would not cause any selection pressure on evolution.

As early as 1900 the adverage global life expectancy was 31.

Please stop posting because your just making yourself look stupid.

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"Remember when they told us having no symptoms was one of the symptoms "

Nope

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school.

What a stupid comparison..

Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x

I think you have to be born with this natural immunity type, you know just like stupidity, it's a pre-defined gene.

Well I think that because I've just been to Tesco and they had no stock and didn't know what it was.

Another nonsensical post

Do you think so....you'd think with all this cancer kicking about for thousands of years, the body would have developed a natural immunity to that as well.

"

The majority of cancers have no direct/indirect connection to pathogens.

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school.

What a stupid comparison..

Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x

I think you have to be born with this natural immunity type, you know just like stupidity, it's a pre-defined gene.

Well I think that because I've just been to Tesco and they had no stock and didn't know what it was.

Another nonsensical post

Do you think so....you'd think with all this cancer kicking about for thousands of years, the body would have developed a natural immunity to that as well.

Fist of all Cancer is not an infectious disease..

For the vast majority of human history the lifespan has been so short that cancer would not cause any selection pressure on evolution.

As early as 1900 the adverage global life expectancy was 31.

Please stop posting because your just making yourself look stupid."

There's no need for this!

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By *hagTonight OP   Man 36 weeks ago

From the land of haribos.

If I recall correctly, dr fauci also said that natural immunity is better too

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"

Vaccines give a precise, measured dose "

With traditional vaccines yes. Mrna vaccines are different due to your body actually making the antigen. This obviously can differ from person to person and in some cases by a substantial amount.

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"

Vaccines or infections trigger the same immune systems responses. Millions of lives have been and are secured. Countless grief prevented. "

The Covid 19 vaccine and the infection immune system responses are different and are not the same..

I do agree with you though, that potentially millions of lives globally of sick and vulnerable people have been saved by the vaccines.

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By *i joanneCouple 36 weeks ago

blackpool

All his research is fact based.think I would take his word over yours,no offence.

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By *ad NannaWoman 36 weeks ago

East London


"If I recall correctly, dr fauci also said that natural immunity is better too "

If we all had it and the virus couldn't mutate.

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By *ensual75Man 36 weeks ago

London

The study quoted is interesting but pretty irrelevant now. The vast majority of people in the UK have now had covid and so have "natural immunity". A more relevant question is to compare those who have had the vaccine and covid against those who have just had covid. Not surprisingly those who have both do better as the vaccine and infection stimulate the immune system in different ways. Protection at 12 months after the vaccine against hospital admission is 97.4% vs 74.6% for those without. If you would like to read the paper which is a meta-analysis of 26 studies combined the doi is 10.1136/bmj.p171

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"If I recall correctly, dr fauci also said that natural immunity is better too

If we all had it and the virus couldn't mutate.

"

We all have an innate and adaptive immune system.

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"

Vaccines or infections trigger the same immune systems responses. Millions of lives have been and are secured. Countless grief prevented.

The Covid 19 vaccine and the infection immune system responses are different...

"

Explain please

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"

Vaccines give a precise, measured dose

With traditional vaccines yes. Mrna vaccines are different due to your body actually making the antigen. This obviously can differ from person to person and in some cases by a substantial amount."

to prompt an immune response by creating antibodies.

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"

Vaccines or infections trigger the same immune systems responses. Millions of lives have been and are secured. Countless grief prevented.

The Covid 19 vaccine and the infection immune system responses are different...

Explain please"

Sure,

Antibodies from the vaccine are solely going to target the spike protein.

The vaccine will create a very strong systemic immune response but mucosal immunity is poorly activated.

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"The study quoted is interesting but pretty irrelevant now. The vast majority of people in the UK have now had covid and so have "natural immunity". A more relevant question is to compare those who have had the vaccine and covid against those who have just had covid. Not surprisingly those who have both do better as the vaccine and infection stimulate the immune system in different ways. Protection at 12 months after the vaccine against hospital admission is 97.4% vs 74.6% for those without. If you would like to read the paper which is a meta-analysis of 26 studies combined the doi is 10.1136/bmj.p171"

It's floored if the study is grouping all non vaccinated people into one group.

If you have old and vulnerable people, that are at serious risk of becoming very ill or dieing not having the vaccine when they should that is really going to screw the data.

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By *irty_DeedsMan 36 weeks ago

Teesside


"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school.

What a stupid comparison..

Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x"

I got my tb jab, guess what? Never got tb. Can't say the same for my covid jabs. Still caught it, twice after my jabs.

If you told me that my tb jab was gonna be sooo effective I could still catch TB multiple times, despite many doses and boosters, I'd prob pass on that too.

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By *irty_DeedsMan 36 weeks ago

Teesside

I've had vaccines and covid multiple times. Does that make me super immune? My friend group recently had an outbreak of it. Despite being around everyone when they believe it was passed around there was only me and one other who didn't catch it or I was asymptomatic and not showing as infected on a test.

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By *uietbloke67Man 36 weeks ago

outside your bedroom window ;-)


"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school.

What a stupid comparison..

Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x

I think you have to be born with this natural immunity type, you know just like stupidity, it's a pre-defined gene.

Well I think that because I've just been to Tesco and they had no stock and didn't know what it was.

Another nonsensical post

Do you think so....you'd think with all this cancer kicking about for thousands of years, the body would have developed a natural immunity to that as well.

Fist of all Cancer is not an infectious disease..

For the vast majority of human history the lifespan has been so short that cancer would not cause any selection pressure on evolution.

As early as 1900 the adverage global life expectancy was 31.

Please stop posting because your just making yourself look stupid."

Lol...go get a job on GB News there will be a niche audience who think your clever.

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school.

What a stupid comparison..

Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x

I think you have to be born with this natural immunity type, you know just like stupidity, it's a pre-defined gene.

Well I think that because I've just been to Tesco and they had no stock and didn't know what it was.

Another nonsensical post

Do you think so....you'd think with all this cancer kicking about for thousands of years, the body would have developed a natural immunity to that as well.

Fist of all Cancer is not an infectious disease..

For the vast majority of human history the lifespan has been so short that cancer would not cause any selection pressure on evolution.

As early as 1900 the adverage global life expectancy was 31.

Please stop posting because your just making yourself look stupid.

Lol...go get a job on GB News there will be a niche audience who think your clever."

You're**

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By *uietbloke67Man 36 weeks ago

outside your bedroom window ;-)


"I've had vaccines and covid multiple times. Does that make me super immune? My friend group recently had an outbreak of it. Despite being around everyone when they believe it was passed around there was only me and one other who didn't catch it or I was asymptomatic and not showing as infected on a test."

Have you been on the company of someone with the cold and not caught the cold. I've had it twice now, to be honest it was relatively worse than a bad cold but not as bad as full blown flu.

I'm relatively fit and healthy, however I've a mate who was just about over the edge.

There is a lot of mumbo jumbo kicking about and in the day and age even more Internet doctors, scientists and theologians.

However my last word on this is the human body does not create antibodies that last a life time in 24 months.

The doctors are the best place to give us advice and care on how to look after ourself and it is proven beyond doubt without the jab the death toll would have been far far higher in any statistic.

Enjoy the thread, I'm out.

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By *itaminMan 36 weeks ago

Felistowe

People still quote and trust fauci? The man who helped to fund the mutation of the virus. If so, do they still believe the wet market scenario?...

I remember them saying having no symptoms was also a symptom. Just like I remember fauci himself saying masks don't work, oh but then they do a few months later and now we all know they dont.

Science funded the virus, science let the virus escape and science locked the world down, which has and will continue to cause more damage than the virus could have ever done if we just ignored it and/or protected the actual vulnerable only.

We must trust the science though, even though science is meant to be questioned and picked apart. Natural immunity is a thing, and herd immunity is also a thing, (boris was right on that).

I won't ever forget what they did to us, and I won't ever forgive. It saddens me beyond belief that people still watch and buy into the coercive brain rotting media,and quote from them with the same vigor and testimony of a priest who's had visions of virgin mary giving fauci a handy.

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By *ackformore100Man 36 weeks ago

Tin town

And round and around we go. The concept sounds good. But as most threads in the topic for the last years... It descends into prejudiced parroting rather than informed debate.

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"

Vaccines or infections trigger the same immune systems responses. Millions of lives have been and are secured. Countless grief prevented.

The Covid 19 vaccine and the infection immune system responses are different...

Explain please

Sure,

Antibodies from the vaccine are solely going to target the spike protein.

The vaccine will create a very strong systemic immune response but mucosal immunity is poorly activated."

Very unclear. As you have put vaccine in both paragraphs. You're supposedly explaining how the vaccines and infection produce a different immune response.

Also, where are you getting your info?

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school.

What a stupid comparison..

Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x

I think you have to be born with this natural immunity type, you know just like stupidity, it's a pre-defined gene.

Well I think that because I've just been to Tesco and they had no stock and didn't know what it was.

Another nonsensical post

Do you think so....you'd think with all this cancer kicking about for thousands of years, the body would have developed a natural immunity to that as well.

Fist of all Cancer is not an infectious disease..

For the vast majority of human history the lifespan has been so short that cancer would not cause any selection pressure on evolution.

As early as 1900 the adverage global life expectancy was 31.

Please stop posting because your just making yourself look stupid.

Lol...go get a job on GB News there will be a niche audience who think your clever.

You're**"

People in glass houses should not throw stones. "Floored".

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By *ackformore100Man 36 weeks ago

Tin town

Love the way people spout "the science" they read or watched with no other understanding... But the minute someone does the same with a counter argument they are the idiots. The lack of self awareness is staggering.

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By (user no longer on site) 36 weeks ago

Never been vaccinated caught covid once everyone i know who's been vaccinated has caught it several times with the same outcome..its knocked them about but maybe I'm just lucky

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"

Vaccines or infections trigger the same immune systems responses. Millions of lives have been and are secured. Countless grief prevented.

The Covid 19 vaccine and the infection immune system responses are different...

Explain please

Sure,

Antibodies from the vaccine are solely going to target the spike protein.

The vaccine will create a very strong systemic immune response but mucosal immunity is poorly activated.

Very unclear. As you have put vaccine in both paragraphs. You're supposedly explaining how the vaccines and infection produce a different immune response.

Also, where are you getting your info?

"

What is it you are finding unclear? When I said vaccine I was referring specificly to the Mrna vaccine not traditional vaccines.

Yes, covid 19 vaccine and infection produce a different immune response.

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"And round and around we go. The concept sounds good. But as most threads in the topic for the last years... It descends into prejudiced parroting rather than informed debate. "

This is very true and from both sides.

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school.

What a stupid comparison..

Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x

I think you have to be born with this natural immunity type, you know just like stupidity, it's a pre-defined gene.

Well I think that because I've just been to Tesco and they had no stock and didn't know what it was.

Another nonsensical post

Do you think so....you'd think with all this cancer kicking about for thousands of years, the body would have developed a natural immunity to that as well.

Fist of all Cancer is not an infectious disease..

For the vast majority of human history the lifespan has been so short that cancer would not cause any selection pressure on evolution.

As early as 1900 the adverage global life expectancy was 31.

Please stop posting because your just making yourself look stupid.

Lol...go get a job on GB News there will be a niche audience who think your clever.

You're**

People in glass houses should not throw stones. "Floored"."

Where does it say "Floored" in what you have quoted?

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By *ackformore100Man 36 weeks ago

Tin town


"And round and around we go. The concept sounds good. But as most threads in the topic for the last years... It descends into prejudiced parroting rather than informed debate.

This is very true and from both sides."

Very true... However many sides there are... Its evident that with a few exceptions we all just spout those we consider to be credible and those sources that matches our own biases. Of course personal experiences are different and I would suggest a better source than anything else.

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"The study quoted is interesting but pretty irrelevant now. The vast majority of people in the UK have now had covid and so have "natural immunity". A more relevant question is to compare those who have had the vaccine and covid against those who have just had covid. Not surprisingly those who have both do better as the vaccine and infection stimulate the immune system in different ways. Protection at 12 months after the vaccine against hospital admission is 97.4% vs 74.6% for those without. If you would like to read the paper which is a meta-analysis of 26 studies combined the doi is 10.1136/bmj.p171

It's floored if the study is grouping all non vaccinated people into one group.

If you have old and vulnerable people, that are at serious risk of becoming very ill or dieing not having the vaccine when they should that is really going to screw the data.

"

This is you stating floored.

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"

Vaccines or infections trigger the same immune systems responses. Millions of lives have been and are secured. Countless grief prevented.

The Covid 19 vaccine and the infection immune system responses are different...

Explain please

Sure,

Antibodies from the vaccine are solely going to target the spike protein.

The vaccine will create a very strong systemic immune response but mucosal immunity is poorly activated.

Very unclear. As you have put vaccine in both paragraphs. You're supposedly explaining how the vaccines and infection produce a different immune response.

Also, where are you getting your info?

What is it you are finding unclear? When I said vaccine I was referring specificly to the Mrna vaccine not traditional vaccines.

Yes, covid 19 vaccine and infection produce a different immune response."

Reread the entire post. I asked you to explain the different immune responses (a) to the (mRNA) vaccine, (b) to the covid infection. Your response states vaccine, vaccine... IE not infection. And then simply yes, the immune response differs.

And again I ask for source of info.

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By *innerforthreeMan 36 weeks ago

London/herts

Natural immunity to me for what it's worth is for those people at what you might call the deep end of the gene pool that never get colds or illnesses. And science doesn't really understand why.

But as usual some pretty poor comments on various vaccines for TB (a bacteria) v Viruses that are much more nimble and mutate far more readily which is why vaccines are not do effective from year to year.

Oh and for the big Sharma deniers I presume they've got a cure for cancer but don't want to share it so they can flog expensive chemo drugs right?

In other news Measles vaccination is at record lows in London and kids will die and more maimed for life.

Congrats anti vaxxers.

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"Natural immunity to me for what it's worth is for those people at what you might call the deep end of the gene pool that never get colds or illnesses. And science doesn't really understand why..."

Science does understand why to a certain extent. You need to look at innate and adaptive immune system.

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By (user no longer on site) 36 weeks ago

Unvacinted, worked all throughout the lock down, still alive

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By *ackformore100Man 36 weeks ago

Tin town


"Natural immunity to me for what it's worth is for those people at what you might call the deep end of the gene pool that never get colds or illnesses. And science doesn't really understand why.

But as usual some pretty poor comments on various vaccines for TB (a bacteria) v Viruses that are much more nimble and mutate far more readily which is why vaccines are not do effective from year to year.

Oh and for the big Sharma deniers I presume they've got a cure for cancer but don't want to share it so they can flog expensive chemo drugs right?

In other news Measles vaccination is at record lows in London and kids will die and more maimed for life.

Congrats anti vaxxers."

Thing is its not just anti vaxxers fault. Perhaps consider also that undeniably big pharma have lied and misrepresented at times, have made suspiciously large sums of money at times and do not have a great pr. (for balance they so some amazing stuff too). Dr's,and health service and govt agency's have done a pretty shitty job of managing the comms and info around particularly covid but other programs too (and also done some good stuff too).. Social media and malign agents have been encouraged to click for money by peddling their wears.... It is very easy to understand why some people are sceptical and or pro choice and or anti... It will require a lot of smart effort to turn that around and people don't even seem to acknowledge it, let alone put in any effort to address it.

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By *orny PTMan 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"Mmm natural immunity to measles? Polio? Etc etc. "

We can't even sort out the numerous common cold viruses, all we can do is practice good hygiene and alleviate the symptoms,

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"

Vaccines or infections trigger the same immune systems responses. Millions of lives have been and are secured. Countless grief prevented.

The Covid 19 vaccine and the infection immune system responses are different...

Explain please

Sure,

Antibodies from the vaccine are solely going to target the spike protein.

The vaccine will create a very strong systemic immune response but mucosal immunity is poorly activated.

Very unclear. As you have put vaccine in both paragraphs. You're supposedly explaining how the vaccines and infection produce a different immune response.

Also, where are you getting your info?

What is it you are finding unclear? When I said vaccine I was referring specificly to the Mrna vaccine not traditional vaccines.

Yes, covid 19 vaccine and infection produce a different immune response.

Reread the entire post. I asked you to explain the different immune responses (a) to the (mRNA) vaccine, (b) to the covid infection. Your response states vaccine, vaccine... IE not infection. And then simply yes, the immune response differs.

And again I ask for source of info."

If you are agreeing the immune response differs from a COVID-19 infection to the immune response derived from the COVID-19 vaccine what is it you are want me to source?

I did explain the different immune responses.

Antibodies from the vaccine will ONLY target the spike protein as that is the only antigen present in the vaccine.

Antibodies from an infection tend to be broader

An infection from COVID-19 will be in the mucosal membranes and stimulate a mucosal immune response.

The spike protein from the vaccine are systemic and so produce a poor mucosal immune response.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

 

By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"Natural immunity to me for what it's worth is for those people at what you might call the deep end of the gene pool that never get colds or illnesses. And science doesn't really understand why.

But as usual some pretty poor comments on various vaccines for TB (a bacteria) v Viruses that are much more nimble and mutate far more readily which is why vaccines are not do effective from year to year.

Oh and for the big Sharma deniers I presume they've got a cure for cancer but don't want to share it so they can flog expensive chemo drugs right?

In other news Measles vaccination is at record lows in London and kids will die and more maimed for life.

Congrats anti vaxxers.

Thing is its not just anti vaxxers fault. Perhaps consider also that undeniably big pharma have lied and misrepresented at times, have made suspiciously large sums of money at times and do not have a great pr. (for balance they so some amazing stuff too). Dr's,and health service and govt agency's have done a pretty shitty job of managing the comms and info around particularly covid but other programs too (and also done some good stuff too).. Social media and malign agents have been encouraged to click for money by peddling their wears.... It is very easy to understand why some people are sceptical and or pro choice and or anti... It will require a lot of smart effort to turn that around and people don't even seem to acknowledge it, let alone put in any effort to address it. "

Completely agree and very well put.

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By *rank speakerMan 36 weeks ago

Worcester

I assume we're talking about covid? I spent a day with a friend who wasn't feeling to well. When they took the test next day turned out to be covid and they were really poorly for a week. I'm actually classed as vulnerable but not a sign of anything! Unfortunately I'm uncertain if it was before I'd had second booster Natural?

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"

Vaccines or infections trigger the same immune systems responses. Millions of lives have been and are secured. Countless grief prevented.

The Covid 19 vaccine and the infection immune system responses are different...

Explain please

Sure,

Antibodies from the vaccine are solely going to target the spike protein.

The vaccine will create a very strong systemic immune response but mucosal immunity is poorly activated.

Very unclear. As you have put vaccine in both paragraphs. You're supposedly explaining how the vaccines and infection produce a different immune response.

Also, where are you getting your info?

What is it you are finding unclear? When I said vaccine I was referring specificly to the Mrna vaccine not traditional vaccines.

Yes, covid 19 vaccine and infection produce a different immune response.

Reread the entire post. I asked you to explain the different immune responses (a) to the (mRNA) vaccine, (b) to the covid infection. Your response states vaccine, vaccine... IE not infection. And then simply yes, the immune response differs.

And again I ask for source of info.

If you are agreeing the immune response differs from a COVID-19 infection to the immune response derived from the COVID-19 vaccine what is it you are want me to source?

I did explain the different immune responses.

Antibodies from the vaccine will ONLY target the spike protein as that is the only antigen present in the vaccine.

Antibodies from an infection tend to be broader

An infection from COVID-19 will be in the mucosal membranes and stimulate a mucosal immune response.

The spike protein from the vaccine are systemic and so produce a poor mucosal immune response."

Ok rereading it, I see your paragraphing is poor (you having vaccine in two paragraphs). I'm not having a go cos mine is sometimes poor here. After all we're not having it marked .

Once upon a time I could understand people's gobbledygook, poor spelling or poor grammar. Since an ABI it can be difficult.

I see you're indicating our immune system is not our body's first line of defence, true, but who is expecting the vaccine to prepare our entire body to a subsequent/potential infection?

As for source, your job, simply acquiring knowledge, or what?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

 

By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"

Vaccines or infections trigger the same immune systems responses. Millions of lives have been and are secured. Countless grief prevented.

The Covid 19 vaccine and the infection immune system responses are different...

Explain please

Sure,

Antibodies from the vaccine are solely going to target the spike protein.

The vaccine will create a very strong systemic immune response but mucosal immunity is poorly activated.

Very unclear. As you have put vaccine in both paragraphs. You're supposedly explaining how the vaccines and infection produce a different immune response.

Also, where are you getting your info?

What is it you are finding unclear? When I said vaccine I was referring specificly to the Mrna vaccine not traditional vaccines.

Yes, covid 19 vaccine and infection produce a different immune response.

Reread the entire post. I asked you to explain the different immune responses (a) to the (mRNA) vaccine, (b) to the covid infection. Your response states vaccine, vaccine... IE not infection. And then simply yes, the immune response differs.

And again I ask for source of info.

If you are agreeing the immune response differs from a COVID-19 infection to the immune response derived from the COVID-19 vaccine what is it you are want me to source?

I did explain the different immune responses.

Antibodies from the vaccine will ONLY target the spike protein as that is the only antigen present in the vaccine.

Antibodies from an infection tend to be broader

An infection from COVID-19 will be in the mucosal membranes and stimulate a mucosal immune response.

The spike protein from the vaccine are systemic and so produce a poor mucosal immune response.

Ok rereading it, I see your paragraphing is poor (you having vaccine in two paragraphs). I'm not having a go cos mine is sometimes poor here. After all we're not having it marked .

Once upon a time I could understand people's gobbledygook, poor spelling or poor grammar. Since an ABI it can be difficult.

I see you're indicating our immune system is not our body's first line of defence, true, but who is expecting the vaccine to prepare our entire body to a subsequent/potential infection?

As for source, your job, simply acquiring knowledge, or what?"

No problem, I think it is fair to say spelling and grammar aren't my forte.

I would never have guessed you have had a ABI so hope it is not affecting you to much.

I think it's fair to say at one point MSM and health bodies where implying that the vaccine was alot more effective at stopping the spread of infection than it is. This has lead to alot of misconceptions for the public that people still repeat today.

I just enjoy reading and learning I have bias like everyone else but I'm not tribal and Im happy to change my position depending on what I have read.

Mucosal immune response from COVID-19 vaccine.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-3964(21)00582-X/fulltext

Individual response to Spike protein production posy vaccine l.

"Indeed, in a woman with mRNA-1273 COVID-19 vaccine-induced thrombocytopenia, plasma S protein levels 10 days after vaccination were 10 ng/ml [6], thus nearly 100 times higher than those reported by Ogata and colleagues in vaccinated subjects with no apparent adverse effects [2], pointing to possibly excessive vaccine-induced production of S protein, in turn attaining concentrations high enough to significantly bind targets such as ACE2, and eventually resulting in vaccine toxicity."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9494717/#:~:text=Indeed%2C%20in%20a%20woman%20with,pointing%20to%20possibly%20excessive%20vaccine%2D

Immune response to COVID-19

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9369212/

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By *irty_DeedsMan 36 weeks ago

Teesside


"Natural immunity to me for what it's worth is for those people at what you might call the deep end of the gene pool that never get colds or illnesses. And science doesn't really understand why.

But as usual some pretty poor comments on various vaccines for TB (a bacteria) v Viruses that are much more nimble and mutate far more readily which is why vaccines are not do effective from year to year.

Oh and for the big Sharma deniers I presume they've got a cure for cancer but don't want to share it so they can flog expensive chemo drugs right?

In other news Measles vaccination is at record lows in London and kids will die and more maimed for life.

Congrats anti vaxxers."

You say that as if these pharma companies wouldn't piss on your corpse if it meant an increase in quarterly profits. Look into a few of the scandals if you even slightly believe any of them have anything but profits on their mind. It sways wildly from conspiracy to fact when you see how many dead lay at the feet of these companies. Without even having to do much digging Look at the recently public oxycontin debacle for proof of how little they care and how they will lie to make a few quid.

...and every one of these companies has similar stories. Yet you are a conspiricist if you claim "big pharma" isn't to be trusted

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

 

By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"Natural immunity to me for what it's worth is for those people at what you might call the deep end of the gene pool that never get colds or illnesses. And science doesn't really understand why.

But as usual some pretty poor comments on various vaccines for TB (a bacteria) v Viruses that are much more nimble and mutate far more readily which is why vaccines are not do effective from year to year.

Oh and for the big Sharma deniers I presume they've got a cure for cancer but don't want to share it so they can flog expensive chemo drugs right?

In other news Measles vaccination is at record lows in London and kids will die and more maimed for life.

Congrats anti vaxxers.You say that as if these pharma companies wouldn't piss on your corpse if it meant an increase in quarterly profits. Look into a few of the scandals if you even slightly believe any of them have anything but profits on their mind. It sways wildly from conspiracy to fact when you see how many dead lay at the feet of these companies. Without even having to do much digging Look at the recently public oxycontin debacle for proof of how little they care and how they will lie to make a few quid.

...and every one of these companies has similar stories. Yet you are a conspiricist if you claim "big pharma" isn't to be trusted "

1. GlaxoSmithKline, $3 billion

Drugs: Paxil, Wellbutrin, Avandia

GlaxoSmithKline holds the dubious distinction of being forced to pay the largest health care fraud settlement in U.S. history. The criminal fine was $956,814,400 with a forfeiture of $43,185,600. $2 billion was paid to resolve civil liabilities under the False Claims Act.

The penalties are related to deceptive marketing, including off-label promotion and kickbacks, and failure to report safety data.

GSK agreed to pay based on:

Promoting Paxil, Wellbutrin, Advair, Lamictal, and Zofran for off-label and non-covered uses, in addition to paying kickbacks to physicians for prescribing those drugs.

Giving kickbacks to physicians for prescribing Imitrex, Lotronex, Flovent, and Valtrex.

Making false and misleading statements about Avandia’s safety.

False reporting to the Medicaid Drug Rebate Program.

2. Pfizer, $2.3 billion

Drugs: Bextra, Geodon, Zyvox, Lyrica

The criminal fine was $1.3 billion, and the additional $1 billion was for civil allegations under the False Claims Act. Pfizer falsely promoted Bextra, antipsychotic drug Geodon, antibiotic Zyvox, and antiepileptic Lyrica. The company was also accused of paying kickbacks related to these drugs and submitting false claims to government health care programs based on uses that weren’t medically accepted.

Bextra was pulled from the market in 2005 after it was deemed unsafe.

3. Johnson & Johnson, $2.2 billion

Drugs: Risperdal, Invega, Natrecor

Criminal fines and forfeiture totaled $485 million, and civil settlements amounted to $1.72 billion.

In the early 2000s, Risperdal was approved to treat schizophrenia. However, the company’s sales representatives were promoting the drug to physicians as a treatment for elderly dementia patients for anxiety, agitation, depression, hostility, and confusion. There were also allegations that Risperdal was marketed for other unapproved uses, such as prescription to children and individuals with mental disabilities.

Invega and Natrecor were also included in these lawsuits as having been illegally marketed for off-label and unapproved uses.7

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough

We're very different to the US. Doctors don't have the freedom to prescribe meds unless approved by MHRA for both original use eg gabapentin anti-convulsant, and when discovered to have beneficial side effects, neuropathy.

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By *ackformore100Man 36 weeks ago

Tin town


"Natural immunity to me for what it's worth is for those people at what you might call the deep end of the gene pool that never get colds or illnesses. And science doesn't really understand why.

But as usual some pretty poor comments on various vaccines for TB (a bacteria) v Viruses that are much more nimble and mutate far more readily which is why vaccines are not do effective from year to year.

Oh and for the big Sharma deniers I presume they've got a cure for cancer but don't want to share it so they can flog expensive chemo drugs right?

In other news Measles vaccination is at record lows in London and kids will die and more maimed for life.

Congrats anti vaxxers.You say that as if these pharma companies wouldn't piss on your corpse if it meant an increase in quarterly profits. Look into a few of the scandals if you even slightly believe any of them have anything but profits on their mind. It sways wildly from conspiracy to fact when you see how many dead lay at the feet of these companies. Without even having to do much digging Look at the recently public oxycontin debacle for proof of how little they care and how they will lie to make a few quid.

...and every one of these companies has similar stories. Yet you are a conspiricist if you claim "big pharma" isn't to be trusted

1. GlaxoSmithKline, $3 billion

Drugs: Paxil, Wellbutrin, Avandia

GlaxoSmithKline holds the dubious distinction of being forced to pay the largest health care fraud settlement in U.S. history. The criminal fine was $956,814,400 with a forfeiture of $43,185,600. $2 billion was paid to resolve civil liabilities under the False Claims Act.

The penalties are related to deceptive marketing, including off-label promotion and kickbacks, and failure to report safety data.

GSK agreed to pay based on:

Promoting Paxil, Wellbutrin, Advair, Lamictal, and Zofran for off-label and non-covered uses, in addition to paying kickbacks to physicians for prescribing those drugs.

Giving kickbacks to physicians for prescribing Imitrex, Lotronex, Flovent, and Valtrex.

Making false and misleading statements about Avandia’s safety.

False reporting to the Medicaid Drug Rebate Program.

2. Pfizer, $2.3 billion

Drugs: Bextra, Geodon, Zyvox, Lyrica

The criminal fine was $1.3 billion, and the additional $1 billion was for civil allegations under the False Claims Act. Pfizer falsely promoted Bextra, antipsychotic drug Geodon, antibiotic Zyvox, and antiepileptic Lyrica. The company was also accused of paying kickbacks related to these drugs and submitting false claims to government health care programs based on uses that weren’t medically accepted.

Bextra was pulled from the market in 2005 after it was deemed unsafe.

3. Johnson & Johnson, $2.2 billion

Drugs: Risperdal, Invega, Natrecor

Criminal fines and forfeiture totaled $485 million, and civil settlements amounted to $1.72 billion.

In the early 2000s, Risperdal was approved to treat schizophrenia. However, the company’s sales representatives were promoting the drug to physicians as a treatment for elderly dementia patients for anxiety, agitation, depression, hostility, and confusion. There were also allegations that Risperdal was marketed for other unapproved uses, such as prescription to children and individuals with mental disabilities.

Invega and Natrecor were also included in these lawsuits as having been illegally marketed for off-label and unapproved uses.7"

People see and believe what they want to see and believe.

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By *ardcoretrannyTV/TS 36 weeks ago

dronfield

As a rule I don’t blindly trust big corporations but those fines indicate that some balances are in place against corporate greed.

On balance I’m glad the pharma industry exists!

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By *lik and PaulCouple 36 weeks ago

Flagrante

In answer to the question I think natural immunity is a wonderful thing when it works and less so when it doesn't.

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By *ackformore100Man 36 weeks ago

Tin town


"As a rule I don’t blindly trust big corporations but those fines indicate that some balances are in place against corporate greed.

On balance I’m glad the pharma industry exists!"

There is definitely a balance to be had. I was just reading this on the bbc...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66885389

And in particular this paragraph...

"

" In 2010, fewer than 40,000 people died from a drug overdose across the country, and fewer than 10% of those deaths were tied to fentanyl.

By 2021, more than 100,000 people had died annually in drug overdoses, with an estimated 66% of those tied to fentanyl."

Now I have no idea what fentanyl does... But pharma have created a drug that has killed over 66k a year in the US... Whilst it's abuse of drggs... I can't help feeling there must be some responsibility for making something so toxic, so widely available to such people.

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By *eadingCouple1963Couple 36 weeks ago

Reading


"As a rule I don’t blindly trust big corporations but those fines indicate that some balances are in place against corporate greed.

On balance I’m glad the pharma industry exists!

There is definitely a balance to be had. I was just reading this on the bbc...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66885389

And in particular this paragraph...

"

" In 2010, fewer than 40,000 people died from a drug overdose across the country, and fewer than 10% of those deaths were tied to fentanyl.

By 2021, more than 100,000 people had died annually in drug overdoses, with an estimated 66% of those tied to fentanyl."

Now I have no idea what fentanyl does... But pharma have created a drug that has killed over 66k a year in the US... Whilst it's abuse of drggs... I can't help feeling there must be some responsibility for making something so toxic, so widely available to such people. "

Fentanyl is a commonly used GA, like any drug if it is abused it’ll prove harmful, just the same as paracetamol.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

 

By *ackformore100Man 36 weeks ago

Tin town


"As a rule I don’t blindly trust big corporations but those fines indicate that some balances are in place against corporate greed.

On balance I’m glad the pharma industry exists!

There is definitely a balance to be had. I was just reading this on the bbc...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66885389

And in particular this paragraph...

"

" In 2010, fewer than 40,000 people died from a drug overdose across the country, and fewer than 10% of those deaths were tied to fentanyl.

By 2021, more than 100,000 people had died annually in drug overdoses, with an estimated 66% of those tied to fentanyl."

Now I have no idea what fentanyl does... But pharma have created a drug that has killed over 66k a year in the US... Whilst it's abuse of drggs... I can't help feeling there must be some responsibility for making something so toxic, so widely available to such people.

Fentanyl is a commonly used GA, like any drug if it is abused it’ll prove harmful, just the same as paracetamol. "

Only it's really not the same as paracetamol is it? It's 50 times stronger than heroine and is responsible for over 66k deaths in the USA. Parecetamol is responsible for 500.... They are both drugs but thats where the similarity ends surely. One is available over the counter one is script only.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

 

By *ackformore100Man 36 weeks ago

Tin town


"As a rule I don’t blindly trust big corporations but those fines indicate that some balances are in place against corporate greed.

On balance I’m glad the pharma industry exists!

There is definitely a balance to be had. I was just reading this on the bbc...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66885389

And in particular this paragraph...

"

" In 2010, fewer than 40,000 people died from a drug overdose across the country, and fewer than 10% of those deaths were tied to fentanyl.

By 2021, more than 100,000 people had died annually in drug overdoses, with an estimated 66% of those tied to fentanyl."

Now I have no idea what fentanyl does... But pharma have created a drug that has killed over 66k a year in the US... Whilst it's abuse of drggs... I can't help feeling there must be some responsibility for making something so toxic, so widely available to such people.

Fentanyl is a commonly used GA, like any drug if it is abused it’ll prove harmful, just the same as paracetamol.

Only it's really not the same as paracetamol is it? It's 50 times stronger than heroine and is responsible for over 66k deaths in the USA. Parecetamol is responsible for 500.... They are both drugs but thats where the similarity ends surely. One is available over the counter one is script only. "

Apologies op for going off piste.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

 

By *isurreyguy2019Man 36 weeks ago

surrey


"Natural immunity to me for what it's worth is for those people at what you might call the deep end of the gene pool that never get colds or illnesses. And science doesn't really understand why.

But as usual some pretty poor comments on various vaccines for TB (a bacteria) v Viruses that are much more nimble and mutate far more readily which is why vaccines are not do effective from year to year.

Oh and for the big Sharma deniers I presume they've got a cure for cancer but don't want to share it so they can flog expensive chemo drugs right?

In other news Measles vaccination is at record lows in London and kids will die and more maimed for life.

Congrats anti vaxxers.You say that as if these pharma companies wouldn't piss on your corpse if it meant an increase in quarterly profits. Look into a few of the scandals if you even slightly believe any of them have anything but profits on their mind. It sways wildly from conspiracy to fact when you see how many dead lay at the feet of these companies. Without even having to do much digging Look at the recently public oxycontin debacle for proof of how little they care and how they will lie to make a few quid.

...and every one of these companies has similar stories. Yet you are a conspiricist if you claim "big pharma" isn't to be trusted

1. GlaxoSmithKline, $3 billion

Drugs: Paxil, Wellbutrin, Avandia

GlaxoSmithKline holds the dubious distinction of being forced to pay the largest health care fraud settlement in U.S. history. The criminal fine was $956,814,400 with a forfeiture of $43,185,600. $2 billion was paid to resolve civil liabilities under the False Claims Act.

The penalties are related to deceptive marketing, including off-label promotion and kickbacks, and failure to report safety data.

GSK agreed to pay based on:

Promoting Paxil, Wellbutrin, Advair, Lamictal, and Zofran for off-label and non-covered uses, in addition to paying kickbacks to physicians for prescribing those drugs.

Giving kickbacks to physicians for prescribing Imitrex, Lotronex, Flovent, and Valtrex.

Making false and misleading statements about Avandia’s safety.

False reporting to the Medicaid Drug Rebate Program.

2. Pfizer, $2.3 billion

Drugs: Bextra, Geodon, Zyvox, Lyrica

The criminal fine was $1.3 billion, and the additional $1 billion was for civil allegations under the False Claims Act. Pfizer falsely promoted Bextra, antipsychotic drug Geodon, antibiotic Zyvox, and antiepileptic Lyrica. The company was also accused of paying kickbacks related to these drugs and submitting false claims to government health care programs based on uses that weren’t medically accepted.

Bextra was pulled from the market in 2005 after it was deemed unsafe.

3. Johnson & Johnson, $2.2 billion

Drugs: Risperdal, Invega, Natrecor

Criminal fines and forfeiture totaled $485 million, and civil settlements amounted to $1.72 billion.

In the early 2000s, Risperdal was approved to treat schizophrenia. However, the company’s sales representatives were promoting the drug to physicians as a treatment for elderly dementia patients for anxiety, agitation, depression, hostility, and confusion. There were also allegations that Risperdal was marketed for other unapproved uses, such as prescription to children and individuals with mental disabilities.

Invega and Natrecor were also included in these lawsuits as having been illegally marketed for off-label and unapproved uses.7"

Don't forget bayer and their dark and shady past,yet these people are trusted to fk around with crop science amongst other things!

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

 

By *eadingCouple1963Couple 36 weeks ago

Reading


"As a rule I don’t blindly trust big corporations but those fines indicate that some balances are in place against corporate greed.

On balance I’m glad the pharma industry exists!

There is definitely a balance to be had. I was just reading this on the bbc...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66885389

And in particular this paragraph...

"

" In 2010, fewer than 40,000 people died from a drug overdose across the country, and fewer than 10% of those deaths were tied to fentanyl.

By 2021, more than 100,000 people had died annually in drug overdoses, with an estimated 66% of those tied to fentanyl."

Now I have no idea what fentanyl does... But pharma have created a drug that has killed over 66k a year in the US... Whilst it's abuse of drggs... I can't help feeling there must be some responsibility for making something so toxic, so widely available to such people.

Fentanyl is a commonly used GA, like any drug if it is abused it’ll prove harmful, just the same as paracetamol.

Only it's really not the same as paracetamol is it? It's 50 times stronger than heroine and is responsible for over 66k deaths in the USA. Parecetamol is responsible for 500.... They are both drugs but thats where the similarity ends surely. One is available over the counter one is script only. "

Which part of Fentanyl is used as a GA confused you? You said you didn’t know what it was used for, so we explained.

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By *itonthesideWoman 36 weeks ago

Glasgow

From what I can see there seem to be 2 main camps

1. Pharma are bad and they are only out to line their pockets

2. Its entirely peoples own fault when what pharma provide us is abused and goes wrong

Really most of us should be in camp 3 which appreciates that all of the below can be true at the same time

1. Pharmaceuticals including vaccines and strong addictive narcotics are in general positive medical advances that were created to serve a legitimate purpose

2. Pharmaceutical companies are allowed to be too profit focused with not enough of a social responsibility lense which has led to irresponsible marketing and use of drugs

3. The way America treats healthcare as a capitalist venture with doctors making profit from pushing certain drugs is bonkers and has increased the above problem

4. Even with the best procedures in the world in place to prescribe responsibly rather than for profit there will still be abuse of prescription drugs

5. Even with the best procedures in the world in place to use vaccines only for healthcare not to drive big pharma profit, there will still be people that take a negative reaction to them

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"As a rule I don’t blindly trust big corporations but those fines indicate that some balances are in place against corporate greed.

On balance I’m glad the pharma industry exists!

There is definitely a balance to be had. I was just reading this on the bbc...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66885389

And in particular this paragraph...

"

" In 2010, fewer than 40,000 people died from a drug overdose across the country, and fewer than 10% of those deaths were tied to fentanyl.

By 2021, more than 100,000 people had died annually in drug overdoses, with an estimated 66% of those tied to fentanyl."

Now I have no idea what fentanyl does... But pharma have created a drug that has killed over 66k a year in the US... Whilst it's abuse of drggs... I can't help feeling there must be some responsibility for making something so toxic, so widely available to such people.

Fentanyl is a commonly used GA, like any drug if it is abused it’ll prove harmful, just the same as paracetamol.

Only it's really not the same as paracetamol is it? It's 50 times stronger than heroine and is responsible for over 66k deaths in the USA. Parecetamol is responsible for 500.... They are both drugs but thats where the similarity ends surely. One is available over the counter one is script only.

Which part of Fentanyl is used as a GA confused you? You said you didn’t know what it was used for, so we explained. "

I don't think it was your explanation that Fentanyl is used as a GA that confused him probably more to do with the false equivocation you made to paracetamol.

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By *eadingCouple1963Couple 36 weeks ago

Reading


"As a rule I don’t blindly trust big corporations but those fines indicate that some balances are in place against corporate greed.

On balance I’m glad the pharma industry exists!

There is definitely a balance to be had. I was just reading this on the bbc...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66885389

And in particular this paragraph...

"

" In 2010, fewer than 40,000 people died from a drug overdose across the country, and fewer than 10% of those deaths were tied to fentanyl.

By 2021, more than 100,000 people had died annually in drug overdoses, with an estimated 66% of those tied to fentanyl."

Now I have no idea what fentanyl does... But pharma have created a drug that has killed over 66k a year in the US... Whilst it's abuse of drggs... I can't help feeling there must be some responsibility for making something so toxic, so widely available to such people.

Fentanyl is a commonly used GA, like any drug if it is abused it’ll prove harmful, just the same as paracetamol.

Only it's really not the same as paracetamol is it? It's 50 times stronger than heroine and is responsible for over 66k deaths in the USA. Parecetamol is responsible for 500.... They are both drugs but thats where the similarity ends surely. One is available over the counter one is script only.

Which part of Fentanyl is used as a GA confused you? You said you didn’t know what it was used for, so we explained.

I don't think it was your explanation that Fentanyl is used as a GA that confused him probably more to do with the false equivocation you made to paracetamol."

Paracetamol in excess quantities is a killerthat’s well known.

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield

So is coffee, doesn't make it any less of a ridiculous comparison.

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By *eadingCouple1963Couple 36 weeks ago

Reading


"So is coffee, doesn't make it any less of a ridiculous comparison."

Well let’s agree to disagree shall we.

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By *scobar67Man 36 weeks ago

glasgow

Supposedly a 99.9, % survival rate so I'd guess it was blown outta proportion

If they told you many ppl die in car crashes each day would you stop driving??..

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"As a rule I don’t blindly trust big corporations but those fines indicate that some balances are in place against corporate greed.

On balance I’m glad the pharma industry exists!

There is definitely a balance to be had. I was just reading this on the bbc...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66885389

And in particular this paragraph...

"

" In 2010, fewer than 40,000 people died from a drug overdose across the country, and fewer than 10% of those deaths were tied to fentanyl.

By 2021, more than 100,000 people had died annually in drug overdoses, with an estimated 66% of those tied to fentanyl."

Now I have no idea what fentanyl does... But pharma have created a drug that has killed over 66k a year in the US... Whilst it's abuse of drggs... I can't help feeling there must be some responsibility for making something so toxic, so widely available to such people. "

Analgesia. Most often used as patches in palliative care.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

 

By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"As a rule I don’t blindly trust big corporations but those fines indicate that some balances are in place against corporate greed.

On balance I’m glad the pharma industry exists!

There is definitely a balance to be had. I was just reading this on the bbc...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66885389

And in particular this paragraph...

"

" In 2010, fewer than 40,000 people died from a drug overdose across the country, and fewer than 10% of those deaths were tied to fentanyl.

By 2021, more than 100,000 people had died annually in drug overdoses, with an estimated 66% of those tied to fentanyl."

Now I have no idea what fentanyl does... But pharma have created a drug that has killed over 66k a year in the US... Whilst it's abuse of drggs... I can't help feeling there must be some responsibility for making something so toxic, so widely available to such people.

Fentanyl is a commonly used GA, like any drug if it is abused it’ll prove harmful, just the same as paracetamol.

Only it's really not the same as paracetamol is it? It's 50 times stronger than heroine and is responsible for over 66k deaths in the USA. Parecetamol is responsible for 500.... They are both drugs but thats where the similarity ends surely. One is available over the counter one is script only.

Which part of Fentanyl is used as a GA confused you? You said you didn’t know what it was used for, so we explained.

I don't think it was your explanation that Fentanyl is used as a GA that confused him probably more to do with the false equivocation you made to paracetamol."

Both pain killers. Both dangerous if overdosing on.

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"So is coffee, doesn't make it any less of a ridiculous comparison."

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

 

By *ackformore100Man 36 weeks ago

Tin town


"As a rule I don’t blindly trust big corporations but those fines indicate that some balances are in place against corporate greed.

On balance I’m glad the pharma industry exists!

There is definitely a balance to be had. I was just reading this on the bbc...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66885389

And in particular this paragraph...

"

" In 2010, fewer than 40,000 people died from a drug overdose across the country, and fewer than 10% of those deaths were tied to fentanyl.

By 2021, more than 100,000 people had died annually in drug overdoses, with an estimated 66% of those tied to fentanyl."

Now I have no idea what fentanyl does... But pharma have created a drug that has killed over 66k a year in the US... Whilst it's abuse of drggs... I can't help feeling there must be some responsibility for making something so toxic, so widely available to such people.

Analgesia. Most often used as patches in palliative care."

66k people died from patches? Isn't that even worse?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

 

By *ackformore100Man 36 weeks ago

Tin town


"As a rule I don’t blindly trust big corporations but those fines indicate that some balances are in place against corporate greed.

On balance I’m glad the pharma industry exists!

There is definitely a balance to be had. I was just reading this on the bbc...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66885389

And in particular this paragraph...

"

" In 2010, fewer than 40,000 people died from a drug overdose across the country, and fewer than 10% of those deaths were tied to fentanyl.

By 2021, more than 100,000 people had died annually in drug overdoses, with an estimated 66% of those tied to fentanyl."

Now I have no idea what fentanyl does... But pharma have created a drug that has killed over 66k a year in the US... Whilst it's abuse of drggs... I can't help feeling there must be some responsibility for making something so toxic, so widely available to such people.

Fentanyl is a commonly used GA, like any drug if it is abused it’ll prove harmful, just the same as paracetamol.

Only it's really not the same as paracetamol is it? It's 50 times stronger than heroine and is responsible for over 66k deaths in the USA. Parecetamol is responsible for 500.... They are both drugs but thats where the similarity ends surely. One is available over the counter one is script only.

Which part of Fentanyl is used as a GA confused you? You said you didn’t know what it was used for, so we explained.

I don't think it was your explanation that Fentanyl is used as a GA that confused him probably more to do with the false equivocation you made to paracetamol.

Both pain killers. Both dangerous if overdosing on."

One clearly more dangerous than the other... One killed 66k people a year in the USA. The other killed 500.

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By *irty_DeedsMan 36 weeks ago

Teesside


"As a rule I don’t blindly trust big corporations but those fines indicate that some balances are in place against corporate greed.

On balance I’m glad the pharma industry exists!

There is definitely a balance to be had. I was just reading this on the bbc...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66885389

And in particular this paragraph...

"

" In 2010, fewer than 40,000 people died from a drug overdose across the country, and fewer than 10% of those deaths were tied to fentanyl.

By 2021, more than 100,000 people had died annually in drug overdoses, with an estimated 66% of those tied to fentanyl."

Now I have no idea what fentanyl does... But pharma have created a drug that has killed over 66k a year in the US... Whilst it's abuse of drggs... I can't help feeling there must be some responsibility for making something so toxic, so widely available to such people.

Analgesia. Most often used as patches in palliative care.

66k people died from patches? Isn't that even worse? "

The issue with fentanyl in the US isn't even prescriptions. It's the tainted other drugs coming from Mexico that are killing most. People are buying c*ke and then ODing because its laced with fentanyl.

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By *d4funtimesMan 36 weeks ago

Cambridge

[Removed by poster at 22/09/23 20:31:26]

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By *d4funtimesMan 36 weeks ago

Cambridge


"Did you also hear about the study? Apparently israel have done a study and the outcome of it shows that natural immunity wins.

What they were able to do was to get 2 groups, one group that havent had the vaccine and the other group who have had the vaccine.

Although many had both, the so called hybrid immunity, so therefor they could compare the two.

They found that people with the natural infection, were 13 times less likely to get reinfected.

When it come to symptomatic infection, people who had the natural infection, but werent vaccinated were 27 times less likely to get symptomatic infection.

What is your view about their study and natural immunity? I agree that natural immunity is superior "

natural immunity, like in 18th century, when people were dying of tetanus.

The vaccine against tetanus allowed massive progress in controlling the disease. The result — 89 percent reduction in tetanus cases and deaths since 1990.

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"As a rule I don’t blindly trust big corporations but those fines indicate that some balances are in place against corporate greed.

On balance I’m glad the pharma industry exists!

There is definitely a balance to be had. I was just reading this on the bbc...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66885389

And in particular this paragraph...

"

" In 2010, fewer than 40,000 people died from a drug overdose across the country, and fewer than 10% of those deaths were tied to fentanyl.

By 2021, more than 100,000 people had died annually in drug overdoses, with an estimated 66% of those tied to fentanyl."

Now I have no idea what fentanyl does... But pharma have created a drug that has killed over 66k a year in the US... Whilst it's abuse of drggs... I can't help feeling there must be some responsibility for making something so toxic, so widely available to such people.

Analgesia. Most often used as patches in palliative care.

66k people died from patches? Isn't that even worse? "

I'm stating how we in the UK use fentanyl.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

 

By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"As a rule I don’t blindly trust big corporations but those fines indicate that some balances are in place against corporate greed.

On balance I’m glad the pharma industry exists!

There is definitely a balance to be had. I was just reading this on the bbc...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66885389

And in particular this paragraph...

"

" In 2010, fewer than 40,000 people died from a drug overdose across the country, and fewer than 10% of those deaths were tied to fentanyl.

By 2021, more than 100,000 people had died annually in drug overdoses, with an estimated 66% of those tied to fentanyl."

Now I have no idea what fentanyl does... But pharma have created a drug that has killed over 66k a year in the US... Whilst it's abuse of drggs... I can't help feeling there must be some responsibility for making something so toxic, so widely available to such people.

Fentanyl is a commonly used GA, like any drug if it is abused it’ll prove harmful, just the same as paracetamol.

Only it's really not the same as paracetamol is it? It's 50 times stronger than heroine and is responsible for over 66k deaths in the USA. Parecetamol is responsible for 500.... They are both drugs but thats where the similarity ends surely. One is available over the counter one is script only.

Which part of Fentanyl is used as a GA confused you? You said you didn’t know what it was used for, so we explained.

I don't think it was your explanation that Fentanyl is used as a GA that confused him probably more to do with the false equivocation you made to paracetamol.

Both pain killers. Both dangerous if overdosing on.

One clearly more dangerous than the other... One killed 66k people a year in the USA. The other killed 500."

" the drug is also illegally manufactured and sold by criminal gangs. Most of the illegal fentanyl found in the US is trafficked from Mexico using chemicals sourced from China, according to the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA)." BBC.

Paracetamol doesn't cause illegal highs I'm assuming that's the difference between the two.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

 

By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"As a rule I don’t blindly trust big corporations but those fines indicate that some balances are in place against corporate greed.

On balance I’m glad the pharma industry exists!

There is definitely a balance to be had. I was just reading this on the bbc...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66885389

And in particular this paragraph...

"

" In 2010, fewer than 40,000 people died from a drug overdose across the country, and fewer than 10% of those deaths were tied to fentanyl.

By 2021, more than 100,000 people had died annually in drug overdoses, with an estimated 66% of those tied to fentanyl."

Now I have no idea what fentanyl does... But pharma have created a drug that has killed over 66k a year in the US... Whilst it's abuse of drggs... I can't help feeling there must be some responsibility for making something so toxic, so widely available to such people.

Analgesia. Most often used as patches in palliative care.

66k people died from patches? Isn't that even worse? The issue with fentanyl in the US isn't even prescriptions. It's the tainted other drugs coming from Mexico that are killing most. People are buying c*ke and then ODing because its laced with fentanyl."

Exactly and the dose of Fentanyl needed to OD is tiny

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

 

By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"As a rule I don’t blindly trust big corporations but those fines indicate that some balances are in place against corporate greed.

On balance I’m glad the pharma industry exists!

There is definitely a balance to be had. I was just reading this on the bbc...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66885389

And in particular this paragraph...

"

" In 2010, fewer than 40,000 people died from a drug overdose across the country, and fewer than 10% of those deaths were tied to fentanyl.

By 2021, more than 100,000 people had died annually in drug overdoses, with an estimated 66% of those tied to fentanyl."

Now I have no idea what fentanyl does... But pharma have created a drug that has killed over 66k a year in the US... Whilst it's abuse of drggs... I can't help feeling there must be some responsibility for making something so toxic, so widely available to such people.

Fentanyl is a commonly used GA, like any drug if it is abused it’ll prove harmful, just the same as paracetamol.

Only it's really not the same as paracetamol is it? It's 50 times stronger than heroine and is responsible for over 66k deaths in the USA. Parecetamol is responsible for 500.... They are both drugs but thats where the similarity ends surely. One is available over the counter one is script only.

Which part of Fentanyl is used as a GA confused you? You said you didn’t know what it was used for, so we explained.

I don't think it was your explanation that Fentanyl is used as a GA that confused him probably more to do with the false equivocation you made to paracetamol.

Both pain killers. Both dangerous if overdosing on.

One clearly more dangerous than the other... One killed 66k people a year in the USA. The other killed 500.

" the drug is also illegally manufactured and sold by criminal gangs. Most of the illegal fentanyl found in the US is trafficked from Mexico using chemicals sourced from China, according to the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA)." BBC.

Paracetamol doesn't cause illegal highs I'm assuming that's the difference between the two.

"

The difference between the two is 2g of Fentanyl is enough to OD where as paracetamol requires 150mg per KG of body weight hence why I'm saying its ridiculous to compare the two..

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By *ackformore100Man 36 weeks ago

Tin town


"As a rule I don’t blindly trust big corporations but those fines indicate that some balances are in place against corporate greed.

On balance I’m glad the pharma industry exists!

There is definitely a balance to be had. I was just reading this on the bbc...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66885389

And in particular this paragraph...

"

" In 2010, fewer than 40,000 people died from a drug overdose across the country, and fewer than 10% of those deaths were tied to fentanyl.

By 2021, more than 100,000 people had died annually in drug overdoses, with an estimated 66% of those tied to fentanyl."

Now I have no idea what fentanyl does... But pharma have created a drug that has killed over 66k a year in the US... Whilst it's abuse of drggs... I can't help feeling there must be some responsibility for making something so toxic, so widely available to such people.

Analgesia. Most often used as patches in palliative care.

66k people died from patches? Isn't that even worse?

I'm stating how we in the UK use fentanyl."

Good to know.

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"So is coffee, doesn't make it any less of a ridiculous comparison.

Well let’s agree to disagree shall we. "

The adverage person would require a dose of 12,000 mg of paracetamol to OD vs only 2mg of Fentanyl.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

 

By *ackformore100Man 36 weeks ago

Tin town


"As a rule I don’t blindly trust big corporations but those fines indicate that some balances are in place against corporate greed.

On balance I’m glad the pharma industry exists!

There is definitely a balance to be had. I was just reading this on the bbc...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66885389

And in particular this paragraph...

"

" In 2010, fewer than 40,000 people died from a drug overdose across the country, and fewer than 10% of those deaths were tied to fentanyl.

By 2021, more than 100,000 people had died annually in drug overdoses, with an estimated 66% of those tied to fentanyl."

Now I have no idea what fentanyl does... But pharma have created a drug that has killed over 66k a year in the US... Whilst it's abuse of drggs... I can't help feeling there must be some responsibility for making something so toxic, so widely available to such people.

Fentanyl is a commonly used GA, like any drug if it is abused it’ll prove harmful, just the same as paracetamol.

Only it's really not the same as paracetamol is it? It's 50 times stronger than heroine and is responsible for over 66k deaths in the USA. Parecetamol is responsible for 500.... They are both drugs but thats where the similarity ends surely. One is available over the counter one is script only.

Which part of Fentanyl is used as a GA confused you? You said you didn’t know what it was used for, so we explained.

I don't think it was your explanation that Fentanyl is used as a GA that confused him probably more to do with the false equivocation you made to paracetamol.

Both pain killers. Both dangerous if overdosing on.

One clearly more dangerous than the other... One killed 66k people a year in the USA. The other killed 500.

" the drug is also illegally manufactured and sold by criminal gangs. Most of the illegal fentanyl found in the US is trafficked from Mexico using chemicals sourced from China, according to the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA)." BBC.

Paracetamol doesn't cause illegal highs I'm assuming that's the difference between the two.

"

Why assume.? I've written it from the bbc. The difference is one killed over 66k last year in the US and one killed 500.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

 

By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"As a rule I don’t blindly trust big corporations but those fines indicate that some balances are in place against corporate greed.

On balance I’m glad the pharma industry exists!

There is definitely a balance to be had. I was just reading this on the bbc...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66885389

And in particular this paragraph...

"

" In 2010, fewer than 40,000 people died from a drug overdose across the country, and fewer than 10% of those deaths were tied to fentanyl.

By 2021, more than 100,000 people had died annually in drug overdoses, with an estimated 66% of those tied to fentanyl."

Now I have no idea what fentanyl does... But pharma have created a drug that has killed over 66k a year in the US... Whilst it's abuse of drggs... I can't help feeling there must be some responsibility for making something so toxic, so widely available to such people.

Fentanyl is a commonly used GA, like any drug if it is abused it’ll prove harmful, just the same as paracetamol.

Only it's really not the same as paracetamol is it? It's 50 times stronger than heroine and is responsible for over 66k deaths in the USA. Parecetamol is responsible for 500.... They are both drugs but thats where the similarity ends surely. One is available over the counter one is script only.

Which part of Fentanyl is used as a GA confused you? You said you didn’t know what it was used for, so we explained.

I don't think it was your explanation that Fentanyl is used as a GA that confused him probably more to do with the false equivocation you made to paracetamol.

Both pain killers. Both dangerous if overdosing on.

One clearly more dangerous than the other... One killed 66k people a year in the USA. The other killed 500.

" the drug is also illegally manufactured and sold by criminal gangs. Most of the illegal fentanyl found in the US is trafficked from Mexico using chemicals sourced from China, according to the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA)." BBC.

Paracetamol doesn't cause illegal highs I'm assuming that's the difference between the two.

Why assume.? I've written it from the bbc. The difference is one killed over 66k last year in the US and one killed 500."

You're misinterpreting my statement. I didn't mention death. If paracetamol were to induce highs, you'd find it was a mass killer as it's easily available and cheap. The only fault in my paragraph is that I stated THE instead of A difference.

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"So is coffee, doesn't make it any less of a ridiculous comparison.

Well let’s agree to disagree shall we.

The adverage person would require a dose of 12,000 mg of paracetamol to OD vs only 2mg of Fentanyl. "

That's less than 2 packets of shop own brand (24 tablets, 12g). And doesn't take that much to affect your liver hence the warning on the packet not to take more than 4g a day.

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"So is coffee, doesn't make it any less of a ridiculous comparison.

Well let’s agree to disagree shall we.

The adverage person would require a dose of 12,000 mg of paracetamol to OD vs only 2mg of Fentanyl.

That's less than 2 packets of shop own brand (24 tablets, 12g). And doesn't take that much to affect your liver hence the warning on the packet not to take more than 4g a day."

Your missing the point.. If just one of those tablets was fentanyl and you cut that one tiny 500mg table into 250 smaller pieces that would be enough Fentanyl to kill you..

Just think how small that actually is for a second.

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By *ames-77Man 36 weeks ago

milton keynes

Don't watch the news you'll be fine

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"So is coffee, doesn't make it any less of a ridiculous comparison.

Well let’s agree to disagree shall we.

The adverage person would require a dose of 12,000 mg of paracetamol to OD vs only 2mg of Fentanyl.

That's less than 2 packets of shop own brand (24 tablets, 12g). And doesn't take that much to affect your liver hence the warning on the packet not to take more than 4g a day.

Your missing the point.. If just one of those tablets was fentanyl and you cut that one tiny 500mg table into 250 smaller pieces that would be enough Fentanyl to kill you..

Just think how small that actually is for a second."

I'm ignoring your point and highlighting mine - accessibility.

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By *orset.JMan 36 weeks ago

Weymouth


"Did you also hear about the study? Apparently israel have done a study and the outcome of it shows that natural immunity wins.

What they were able to do was to get 2 groups, one group that havent had the vaccine and the other group who have had the vaccine.

Although many had both, the so called hybrid immunity, so therefor they could compare the two.

They found that people with the natural infection, were 13 times less likely to get reinfected.

When it come to symptomatic infection, people who had the natural infection, but werent vaccinated were 27 times less likely to get symptomatic infection.

What is your view about their study and natural immunity? I agree that natural immunity is superior "

Past SARS-CoV-2 infection protection against re-infection: a systematic review and meta-analysis

Lancet March 12th 2023

Quote:

However, they noted that vaccination remains the recommended route to immunity against COVID-19 since there are still considerable risks from infection, particularly among those who are unvaccinated.

"The problem of saying 'I'm gonna get infected to get immunity' is you might be one of those people that end up in the hospital or die," said Christopher Murray, the director of the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation (IHME) at the University of Washington and the study's senior author. "Why would you take the risk when you can get immunity through vaccination quite safely?"

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By *ogo1189Man 36 weeks ago

Rossendale

Given how important it is for us to get the vaccine, it’s a miracle that humanity, and life in general, managed to survive for millions of years before vaccines were invented!

As you can tell, I’m pro vaccine

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By *ackformore100Man 36 weeks ago

Tin town


"As a rule I don’t blindly trust big corporations but those fines indicate that some balances are in place against corporate greed.

On balance I’m glad the pharma industry exists!

There is definitely a balance to be had. I was just reading this on the bbc...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66885389

And in particular this paragraph...

"

" In 2010, fewer than 40,000 people died from a drug overdose across the country, and fewer than 10% of those deaths were tied to fentanyl.

By 2021, more than 100,000 people had died annually in drug overdoses, with an estimated 66% of those tied to fentanyl."

Now I have no idea what fentanyl does... But pharma have created a drug that has killed over 66k a year in the US... Whilst it's abuse of drggs... I can't help feeling there must be some responsibility for making something so toxic, so widely available to such people.

Fentanyl is a commonly used GA, like any drug if it is abused it’ll prove harmful, just the same as paracetamol.

Only it's really not the same as paracetamol is it? It's 50 times stronger than heroine and is responsible for over 66k deaths in the USA. Parecetamol is responsible for 500.... They are both drugs but thats where the similarity ends surely. One is available over the counter one is script only.

Which part of Fentanyl is used as a GA confused you? You said you didn’t know what it was used for, so we explained.

I don't think it was your explanation that Fentanyl is used as a GA that confused him probably more to do with the false equivocation you made to paracetamol.

Both pain killers. Both dangerous if overdosing on.

One clearly more dangerous than the other... One killed 66k people a year in the USA. The other killed 500.

" the drug is also illegally manufactured and sold by criminal gangs. Most of the illegal fentanyl found in the US is trafficked from Mexico using chemicals sourced from China, according to the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA)." BBC.

Paracetamol doesn't cause illegal highs I'm assuming that's the difference between the two.

Why assume.? I've written it from the bbc. The difference is one killed over 66k last year in the US and one killed 500.

You're misinterpreting my statement. I didn't mention death. If paracetamol were to induce highs, you'd find it was a mass killer as it's easily available and cheap. The only fault in my paragraph is that I stated THE instead of A difference."

So if paracetamol was a completely different drug and remained freely available and the lethal dose remained the same it would kill as many people as fentanyl? Who knows.?maybe? If pharma companies were that irresponsible to make such a drug and retailers were irresponsible enough to carry it. It's kind of the point I'm making. They have some of the responsibility for putting lethal and addictive drugs out there.

Imagine if they made a tablet you took one of and it "unaddicted" you, forever.

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"So is coffee, doesn't make it any less of a ridiculous comparison.

Well let’s agree to disagree shall we.

The adverage person would require a dose of 12,000 mg of paracetamol to OD vs only 2mg of Fentanyl.

That's less than 2 packets of shop own brand (24 tablets, 12g). And doesn't take that much to affect your liver hence the warning on the packet not to take more than 4g a day.

Your missing the point.. If just one of those tablets was fentanyl and you cut that one tiny 500mg table into 250 smaller pieces that would be enough Fentanyl to kill you..

Just think how small that actually is for a second.

I'm ignoring your point and highlighting mine - accessibility."

Well if your going to be willfully ignorant there's no point discussing it with you.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

 

By *ndrew CareyMan 36 weeks ago

Peterborough, Cambridgeshire & Lincolnshire


"Did you also hear about the study? Apparently israel have done a study and the outcome of it shows that natural immunity wins.

What they were able to do was to get 2 groups, one group that havent had the vaccine and the other group who have had the vaccine.

Although many had both, the so called hybrid immunity, so therefor they could compare the two.

They found that people with the natural infection, were 13 times less likely to get reinfected.

When it come to symptomatic infection, people who had the natural infection, but werent vaccinated were 27 times less likely to get symptomatic infection.

What is your view about their study and natural immunity? I agree that natural immunity is superior "

How do you know you have natural immunity to an unknown virus?

I do not think you have read the study you refer to properly.

Long covid hits hard and the mote covid infections you get, the more susceptible you are to it.

Millions have died as a result of this disease and I find some of the ignorance that still persists quite tragic.

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By *d4funtimesMan 36 weeks ago

Cambridge


"Given how important it is for us to get the vaccine, it’s a miracle that humanity, and life in general, managed to survive for millions of years before vaccines were invented!

As you can tell, I’m pro vaccine "

When most children did not see their first birthdays and life expectancies was no greater than 35-40 years. Oh yes, under these conditions, a few somehow managed to survived over 45.

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By *ackformore100Man 36 weeks ago

Tin town


"Given how important it is for us to get the vaccine, it’s a miracle that humanity, and life in general, managed to survive for millions of years before vaccines were invented!

As you can tell, I’m pro vaccine

When most children did not see their first birthdays and life expectancies was no greater than 35-40 years. Oh yes, under these conditions, a few somehow managed to survived over 45. "

There were 150 of us living in shoe box in middle of t'road.

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By *irty_DeedsMan 36 weeks ago

Teesside


"Given how important it is for us to get the vaccine, it’s a miracle that humanity, and life in general, managed to survive for millions of years before vaccines were invented!

As you can tell, I’m pro vaccine

When most children did not see their first birthdays and life expectancies was no greater than 35-40 years. Oh yes, under these conditions, a few somehow managed to survived over 45.

There were 150 of us living in shoe box in middle of t'road. "

I had to walk barefoot to school in the snow, uphill both ways!

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By *irty_DeedsMan 36 weeks ago

Teesside


" If pharma companies were that irresponsible to make such a drug and retailers were irresponsible enough to carry it. It's kind of the point I'm making. They have some of the responsibility for putting lethal and addictive drugs out there. "
They would just lie, call it safe, effective and non addictive. Pretty much the whole oxycontin saga that ruined countless lives.

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"As a rule I don’t blindly trust big corporations but those fines indicate that some balances are in place against corporate greed.

On balance I’m glad the pharma industry exists!

There is definitely a balance to be had. I was just reading this on the bbc...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66885389

And in particular this paragraph...

"

" In 2010, fewer than 40,000 people died from a drug overdose across the country, and fewer than 10% of those deaths were tied to fentanyl.

By 2021, more than 100,000 people had died annually in drug overdoses, with an estimated 66% of those tied to fentanyl."

Now I have no idea what fentanyl does... But pharma have created a drug that has killed over 66k a year in the US... Whilst it's abuse of drggs... I can't help feeling there must be some responsibility for making something so toxic, so widely available to such people.

Fentanyl is a commonly used GA, like any drug if it is abused it’ll prove harmful, just the same as paracetamol.

Only it's really not the same as paracetamol is it? It's 50 times stronger than heroine and is responsible for over 66k deaths in the USA. Parecetamol is responsible for 500.... They are both drugs but thats where the similarity ends surely. One is available over the counter one is script only.

Which part of Fentanyl is used as a GA confused you? You said you didn’t know what it was used for, so we explained.

I don't think it was your explanation that Fentanyl is used as a GA that confused him probably more to do with the false equivocation you made to paracetamol.

Both pain killers. Both dangerous if overdosing on.

One clearly more dangerous than the other... One killed 66k people a year in the USA. The other killed 500.

" the drug is also illegally manufactured and sold by criminal gangs. Most of the illegal fentanyl found in the US is trafficked from Mexico using chemicals sourced from China, according to the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA)." BBC.

Paracetamol doesn't cause illegal highs I'm assuming that's the difference between the two.

Why assume.? I've written it from the bbc. The difference is one killed over 66k last year in the US and one killed 500.

You're misinterpreting my statement. I didn't mention death. If paracetamol were to induce highs, you'd find it was a mass killer as it's easily available and cheap. The only fault in my paragraph is that I stated THE instead of A difference.

So if paracetamol was a completely different drug and remained freely available and the lethal dose remained the same it would kill as many people as fentanyl? Who knows.?maybe? If pharma companies were that irresponsible to make such a drug and retailers were irresponsible enough to carry it. It's kind of the point I'm making. They have some of the responsibility for putting lethal and addictive drugs out there.

Imagine if they made a tablet you took one of and it "unaddicted" you, forever. "

The regulators bear the responsibility. We have a very different picture in the UK. There will be more deaths or damage from paracetamol than fentanyl here. That's not to say the criminal element won't rise.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

 

By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"So is coffee, doesn't make it any less of a ridiculous comparison.

Well let’s agree to disagree shall we.

The adverage person would require a dose of 12,000 mg of paracetamol to OD vs only 2mg of Fentanyl.

That's less than 2 packets of shop own brand (24 tablets, 12g). And doesn't take that much to affect your liver hence the warning on the packet not to take more than 4g a day.

Your missing the point.. If just one of those tablets was fentanyl and you cut that one tiny 500mg table into 250 smaller pieces that would be enough Fentanyl to kill you..

Just think how small that actually is for a second.

I'm ignoring your point and highlighting mine - accessibility.

Well if your going to be willfully ignorant there's no point discussing it with you."

I'll rephrase, side-stepping your point to make a more valid point, IMHO, because we are in the UK, paracetamol is cheap and easily available. I could amass a mountain of packets of paracetamol and zero fentanyl today. In that scenario paracetamol is more dangerous.

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


" If pharma companies were that irresponsible to make such a drug and retailers were irresponsible enough to carry it. It's kind of the point I'm making. They have some of the responsibility for putting lethal and addictive drugs out there. They would just lie, call it safe, effective and non addictive. Pretty much the whole oxycontin saga that ruined countless lives."

In the right hands these drugs are safe, effective and non-addictive. We have to remove the criminal element of supply from discussion because that is not the fault of the creator or prescriber. We have to be aware regulations are totally different between the UK and the US.

There are milder drugs in use in the UK that are limited over the counter and monitored by GPs prescribing, due to potential addiction. I state potential because, even though one is at risk of addiction that doesn't mean every user becomes addicted.

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"Did you also hear about the study? Apparently israel have done a study and the outcome of it shows that natural immunity wins.

What they were able to do was to get 2 groups, one group that havent had the vaccine and the other group who have had the vaccine.

Although many had both, the so called hybrid immunity, so therefor they could compare the two.

They found that people with the natural infection, were 13 times less likely to get reinfected.

When it come to symptomatic infection, people who had the natural infection, but werent vaccinated were 27 times less likely to get symptomatic infection.

What is your view about their study and natural immunity? I agree that natural immunity is superior

How do you know you have natural immunity to an unknown virus?

I do not think you have read the study you refer to properly.

Long covid hits hard and the mote covid infections you get, the more susceptible you are to it.

Millions have died as a result of this disease and I find some of the ignorance that still persists quite tragic."

We all have an immune system (innate and adaptive). With a novel pathogen we don't know how our immune system will react. For the majority of healthy people (sorry, not elderly), we expect a decent immune response. However, the sequelae of any pathogen is less known. Viruses are known to cause fatigue, for instance.

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By *ldboy30Man 36 weeks ago

Lincoln

I rarely get a cold, six or seven years since the last one, I don't ever remember having 'flu, did I have my covid jabs, Yes, why wouldn't I ? I have family and friends to consider.

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By *ackformore100Man 36 weeks ago

Tin town


"So is coffee, doesn't make it any less of a ridiculous comparison.

Well let’s agree to disagree shall we.

The adverage person would require a dose of 12,000 mg of paracetamol to OD vs only 2mg of Fentanyl.

That's less than 2 packets of shop own brand (24 tablets, 12g). And doesn't take that much to affect your liver hence the warning on the packet not to take more than 4g a day.

Your missing the point.. If just one of those tablets was fentanyl and you cut that one tiny 500mg table into 250 smaller pieces that would be enough Fentanyl to kill you..

Just think how small that actually is for a second.

I'm ignoring your point and highlighting mine - accessibility.

Well if your going to be willfully ignorant there's no point discussing it with you.

I'll rephrase, side-stepping your point to make a more valid point, IMHO, because we are in the UK, paracetamol is cheap and easily available. I could amass a mountain of packets of paracetamol and zero fentanyl today. In that scenario paracetamol is more dangerous. "

The point I was making was in the US. Because that's a bigger market for pharma companies and what will motivate their values more. But yes in the UK big pharma are all good.

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"As a rule I don’t blindly trust big corporations but those fines indicate that some balances are in place against corporate greed.

On balance I’m glad the pharma industry exists!

There is definitely a balance to be had. I was just reading this on the bbc...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66885389

And in particular this paragraph...

"

" In 2010, fewer than 40,000 people died from a drug overdose across the country, and fewer than 10% of those deaths were tied to fentanyl.

By 2021, more than 100,000 people had died annually in drug overdoses, with an estimated 66% of those tied to fentanyl."

Now I have no idea what fentanyl does... But pharma have created a drug that has killed over 66k a year in the US... Whilst it's abuse of drggs... I can't help feeling there must be some responsibility for making something so toxic, so widely available to such people.

Fentanyl is a commonly used GA, like any drug if it is abused it’ll prove harmful, just the same as paracetamol.

Only it's really not the same as paracetamol is it? It's 50 times stronger than heroine and is responsible for over 66k deaths in the USA. Parecetamol is responsible for 500.... They are both drugs but thats where the similarity ends surely. One is available over the counter one is script only.

Which part of Fentanyl is used as a GA confused you? You said you didn’t know what it was used for, so we explained.

I don't think it was your explanation that Fentanyl is used as a GA that confused him probably more to do with the false equivocation you made to paracetamol.

Both pain killers. Both dangerous if overdosing on.

One clearly more dangerous than the other... One killed 66k people a year in the USA. The other killed 500.

" the drug is also illegally manufactured and sold by criminal gangs. Most of the illegal fentanyl found in the US is trafficked from Mexico using chemicals sourced from China, according to the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA)." BBC.

Paracetamol doesn't cause illegal highs I'm assuming that's the difference between the two.

Why assume.? I've written it from the bbc. The difference is one killed over 66k last year in the US and one killed 500.

You're misinterpreting my statement. I didn't mention death. If paracetamol were to induce highs, you'd find it was a mass killer as it's easily available and cheap. The only fault in my paragraph is that I stated THE instead of A difference.

So if paracetamol was a completely different drug and remained freely available and the lethal dose remained the same it would kill as many people as fentanyl? Who knows.?maybe? If pharma companies were that irresponsible to make such a drug and retailers were irresponsible enough to carry it. It's kind of the point I'm making. They have some of the responsibility for putting lethal and addictive drugs out there.

Imagine if they made a tablet you took one of and it "unaddicted" you, forever.

The regulators bear the responsibility. We have a very different picture in the UK. There will be more deaths or damage from paracetamol than fentanyl here. That's not to say the criminal element won't rise."

Fentanyl deaths and paracetamol deaths in the England and Wales are broadly comparative.

Paracetamol deaths are between 100 - 200 per year.

Pre pandemic Fentanyl deaths where over a 100 per year before dropping to around 70 a year. As Fentanyl use is relatively new we will most likely see this increase exponential over the next decade.

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By *ogo1189Man 36 weeks ago

Rossendale


"Given how important it is for us to get the vaccine, it’s a miracle that humanity, and life in general, managed to survive for millions of years before vaccines were invented!

As you can tell, I’m pro vaccine

When most children did not see their first birthdays and life expectancies was no greater than 35-40 years. Oh yes, under these conditions, a few somehow managed to survived over 45.

There were 150 of us living in shoe box in middle of t'road. I had to walk barefoot to school in the snow, uphill both ways! "

I remember those times. Had to get up early in the morning, half an hour before we went to bed

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"So is coffee, doesn't make it any less of a ridiculous comparison.

Well let’s agree to disagree shall we.

The adverage person would require a dose of 12,000 mg of paracetamol to OD vs only 2mg of Fentanyl.

That's less than 2 packets of shop own brand (24 tablets, 12g). And doesn't take that much to affect your liver hence the warning on the packet not to take more than 4g a day.

Your missing the point.. If just one of those tablets was fentanyl and you cut that one tiny 500mg table into 250 smaller pieces that would be enough Fentanyl to kill you..

Just think how small that actually is for a second.

I'm ignoring your point and highlighting mine - accessibility.

Well if your going to be willfully ignorant there's no point discussing it with you.

I'll rephrase, side-stepping your point to make a more valid point, IMHO, because we are in the UK, paracetamol is cheap and easily available. I could amass a mountain of packets of paracetamol and zero fentanyl today. In that scenario paracetamol is more dangerous. "

To you and the bubble you live in absolutely. That would also be the experience of most law abideing people but to people with different lives and less privilege it's just as easy to obtain illegal drugs, in fact easier as drug dealers deliver these days just like ordering a takeaway!

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"So is coffee, doesn't make it any less of a ridiculous comparison.

Well let’s agree to disagree shall we.

The adverage person would require a dose of 12,000 mg of paracetamol to OD vs only 2mg of Fentanyl.

That's less than 2 packets of shop own brand (24 tablets, 12g). And doesn't take that much to affect your liver hence the warning on the packet not to take more than 4g a day.

Your missing the point.. If just one of those tablets was fentanyl and you cut that one tiny 500mg table into 250 smaller pieces that would be enough Fentanyl to kill you..

Just think how small that actually is for a second.

I'm ignoring your point and highlighting mine - accessibility.

Well if your going to be willfully ignorant there's no point discussing it with you.

I'll rephrase, side-stepping your point to make a more valid point, IMHO, because we are in the UK, paracetamol is cheap and easily available. I could amass a mountain of packets of paracetamol and zero fentanyl today. In that scenario paracetamol is more dangerous.

To you and the bubble you live in absolutely. That would also be the experience of most law abideing people but to people with different lives and less privilege it's just as easy to obtain illegal drugs, in fact easier as drug dealers deliver these days just like ordering a takeaway! "

My bubble, and less privilege? Explain please.

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By *un beforeMan 36 weeks ago

london colney

Total fucking bollocks

Israel s country built in religion not science

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By *orset.JMan 36 weeks ago

Weymouth


"So is coffee, doesn't make it any less of a ridiculous comparison.

Well let’s agree to disagree shall we.

The adverage person would require a dose of 12,000 mg of paracetamol to OD vs only 2mg of Fentanyl.

That's less than 2 packets of shop own brand (24 tablets, 12g). And doesn't take that much to affect your liver hence the warning on the packet not to take more than 4g a day.

Your missing the point.. If just one of those tablets was fentanyl and you cut that one tiny 500mg table into 250 smaller pieces that would be enough Fentanyl to kill you..

Just think how small that actually is for a second.

I'm ignoring your point and highlighting mine - accessibility.

Well if your going to be willfully ignorant there's no point discussing it with you.

I'll rephrase, side-stepping your point to make a more valid point, IMHO, because we are in the UK, paracetamol is cheap and easily available. I could amass a mountain of packets of paracetamol and zero fentanyl today. In that scenario paracetamol is more dangerous.

The point I was making was in the US. Because that's a bigger market for pharma companies and what will motivate their values more. But yes in the UK big pharma are all good. "

The supply of fentanyl in the US is from Illegal sources and not through the medical system. Illegal gangs have realised that it is way more addictive than Heroin.

OxyContin was definitely a Pharma/ Sackler family driven epidemic.

This Fentanyl crisis has nothing to do with Pharma.

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By *isurreyguy2019Man 36 weeks ago

surrey


"Total fucking bollocks

Israel s country built in religion not science "

Israel has the most scientists,technicians and engineers per captia in the world, they have nothing to gain or lose by publishing infomation like this,they are just presenting unbiased scientific facts,the way science should be done. If vaccines produced a better immune response over natural immunity then they would have published that instead.

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By *arriorstrongMan 36 weeks ago

Preston


"Total fucking bollocks

Israel s country built in religion not science "

This is a common misunderstanding.

Zionism is not Judaism. There are many Judaists who are no zionists, and many zionists who are not judaists.

What you have in Israel now is the capture of, or exposure of the zionist movement by/as fascist apartheidists. They don't really care for their citizens, perhaps that's why they jabbed them all?

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"So is coffee, doesn't make it any less of a ridiculous comparison.

Well let’s agree to disagree shall we.

The adverage person would require a dose of 12,000 mg of paracetamol to OD vs only 2mg of Fentanyl.

That's less than 2 packets of shop own brand (24 tablets, 12g). And doesn't take that much to affect your liver hence the warning on the packet not to take more than 4g a day.

Your missing the point.. If just one of those tablets was fentanyl and you cut that one tiny 500mg table into 250 smaller pieces that would be enough Fentanyl to kill you..

Just think how small that actually is for a second.

I'm ignoring your point and highlighting mine - accessibility.

Well if your going to be willfully ignorant there's no point discussing it with you.

I'll rephrase, side-stepping your point to make a more valid point, IMHO, because we are in the UK, paracetamol is cheap and easily available. I could amass a mountain of packets of paracetamol and zero fentanyl today. In that scenario paracetamol is more dangerous.

To you and the bubble you live in absolutely. That would also be the experience of most law abideing people but to people with different lives and less privilege it's just as easy to obtain illegal drugs, in fact easier as drug dealers deliver these days just like ordering a takeaway!

My bubble, and less privilege? Explain please."

It's kind of self evidential if you think getting hold of class A drugs is any harder then buying paracetamol from a shop. If you have not lived that life or have spent time around others who have it's not something I can really explain to you.

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By *csheffMan 36 weeks ago

Sheffield


"Total fucking bollocks

Israel s country built in religion not science

Israel has the most scientists,technicians and engineers per captia in the world, they have nothing to gain or lose by publishing infomation like this,they are just presenting unbiased scientific facts,the way science should be done. If vaccines produced a better immune response over natural immunity then they would have published that instead. "

Pretty bigoted comment by the previous poster as well..

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By *melie LALWoman 36 weeks ago

Peterborough


"So is coffee, doesn't make it any less of a ridiculous comparison.

Well let’s agree to disagree shall we.

The adverage person would require a dose of 12,000 mg of paracetamol to OD vs only 2mg of Fentanyl.

That's less than 2 packets of shop own brand (24 tablets, 12g). And doesn't take that much to affect your liver hence the warning on the packet not to take more than 4g a day.

Your missing the point.. If just one of those tablets was fentanyl and you cut that one tiny 500mg table into 250 smaller pieces that would be enough Fentanyl to kill you..

Just think how small that actually is for a second.

I'm ignoring your point and highlighting mine - accessibility.

Well if your going to be willfully ignorant there's no point discussing it with you.

I'll rephrase, side-stepping your point to make a more valid point, IMHO, because we are in the UK, paracetamol is cheap and easily available. I could amass a mountain of packets of paracetamol and zero fentanyl today. In that scenario paracetamol is more dangerous.

To you and the bubble you live in absolutely. That would also be the experience of most law abideing people but to people with different lives and less privilege it's just as easy to obtain illegal drugs, in fact easier as drug dealers deliver these days just like ordering a takeaway!

My bubble, and less privilege? Explain please.

It's kind of self evidential if you think getting hold of class A drugs is any harder then buying paracetamol from a shop. If you have not lived that life or have spent time around others who have it's not something I can really explain to you."

That's a cop out.

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By *hagTonight OP   Man 36 weeks ago

From the land of haribos.

Its been an interesting discussion everyone

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