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What do you think about natural immunity?
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"Shag, do you understand why the vaccination was rolled out originally?" To stop deaths!! | |||
"Mmm natural immunity to measles? Polio? Etc etc. " The OP is about Covid right? My reading of the OP is that unvaccinated people who caught Covid are less likely to get reinfected. Would be good to get the source for this. | |||
"Mmm natural immunity to measles? Polio? Etc etc. The OP is about Covid right? My reading of the OP is that unvaccinated people who caught Covid are less likely to get reinfected. Would be good to get the source for this." They didn’t say covid. And no evidence of the next point | |||
"Mmm natural immunity to measles? Polio? Etc etc. The OP is about Covid right? My reading of the OP is that unvaccinated people who caught Covid are less likely to get reinfected. Would be good to get the source for this. They didn’t say covid. And no evidence of the next point " Well the OP can clarify but I strongly suspect this is about Covid. Also, without a source to look it up myself I am going to have to take the OP at face value and it says... "When it come to symptomatic infection, people who had the natural infection, but werent vaccinated were 27 times less likely to get symptomatic infection." So what else does that mean? | |||
"Mmm natural immunity to measles? Polio? Etc etc. The OP is about Covid right? My reading of the OP is that unvaccinated people who caught Covid are less likely to get reinfected. Would be good to get the source for this. They didn’t say covid. And no evidence of the next point Well the OP can clarify but I strongly suspect this is about Covid. Also, without a source to look it up myself I am going to have to take the OP at face value and it says... When it come to symptomatic infection, people who had the natural infection, but werent vaccinated were 27 times less likely to get symptomatic infection. So what else does that mean?" Oops quoted wrong bit... "They found that people with the natural infection, were 13 times less likely to get reinfected." | |||
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"Mmm natural immunity to measles? Polio? Etc etc. The OP is about Covid right? My reading of the OP is that unvaccinated people who caught Covid are less likely to get reinfected. Would be good to get the source for this. They didn’t say covid. And no evidence of the next point Well the OP can clarify but I strongly suspect this is about Covid. Also, without a source to look it up myself I am going to have to take the OP at face value and it says... When it come to symptomatic infection, people who had the natural infection, but werent vaccinated were 27 times less likely to get symptomatic infection. So what else does that mean? Oops quoted wrong bit... They found that people with the natural infection, were 13 times less likely to get reinfected." Yes. I quoted abit from what john said was from john cambells video called natural immunity wins https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IiA1S6NvCo4 it would be interesting to see what you think as he talked about the papers from the study | |||
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"Mmm natural immunity to measles? Polio? Etc etc. The OP is about Covid right? My reading of the OP is that unvaccinated people who caught Covid are less likely to get reinfected. Would be good to get the source for this." ReLly rhenium how ome my sister has caught it three times and numerous people I know also have. And yes I was vaccinated but missed my third jab and caught it on holiday in France. So, like many studies such things are useful but in a strictly controlled environment only is an indication not the be all and end all. In science there are no absolute answers only possibilities. | |||
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"My take? Natural immunity is great if you have it. Pretty shit (and potentially fatal) if you don't. " Pretty good take there... Why chance it we say | |||
"My take? Natural immunity is great if you have it. Pretty shit (and potentially fatal) if you don't. Remember the story about the triathle who refused the jab because he was so fit and would easily shrug it off because his bodies natural immunity would save him? Well he tested that theory and is now playing a harp or at then end of a demon welding pitchfork. Pretty good take there... Why chance it we say" | |||
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Of course, 1 of the consequences of potentially getting infection-derived immunity, is that you may need hospitalisation and may die. Those are consequences that are avoidable and highly costly to others, potentially helping others to die too. I'd not be comfortable with that.
In any event, there are mixed conclusions from the research. As Campbell doesn't appear to have appropriate expertise in epidemiology etc, that I'd not even consider looking anywhere else other than in the recognised professional literature, for evidence that's peer-reviewed. Certainty not on a quack's paradise, where such dubious charlatans may promote unsubstantiated points that they earn money from, without any of the oversight, responsibilities or honesty that true professionals and global networks of expertise invest. | |||
 I still don’t even touch stair banisters, door handles and petrol pumps etc with my bare hands. | |||
"How the feck would they know with people showing no symptoms but passing it on??? Ffs " Full natural immunity fills the body with T-cells which recognise the original pathogen and its mutations, they trigger the production of C-cells, specifically designed to hunt and kill it. This body attacks the pathogen before it gets chance to enter a suitable cell and replicate. Also, a virus relies on symptoms to spread, “coughs and sneezes spreads diseases” turns out to be true | |||
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"Mmm natural immunity to measles? Polio? Etc etc. The OP is about Covid right? My reading of the OP is that unvaccinated people who caught Covid are less likely to get reinfected. Would be good to get the source for this. They didn’t say covid. And no evidence of the next point Well the OP can clarify but I strongly suspect this is about Covid. Also, without a source to look it up myself I am going to have to take the OP at face value and it says... When it come to symptomatic infection, people who had the natural infection, but werent vaccinated were 27 times less likely to get symptomatic infection. So what else does that mean? Oops quoted wrong bit... They found that people with the natural infection, were 13 times less likely to get reinfected.Yes. I quoted abit from what john said was from john cambells video called natural immunity wins https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IiA1S6NvCo4 it would be interesting to see what you think as he talked about the papers from the study "I also want to add that yes, it is about covid as well. | |||
"This John Campbell doesn't even have the training of a medical Doctor, so isn't the type of individual that I would consult. And, especially as he's been criticized for promotion of misinformation. Ivermectin was touted by some in the pandemic, despite its risks and it has no evidence backing it. I'm sure most of us recall that. In any event, there have been multiple studies of immunity gained from vaccines and infections. Infection acquired immunity is not guaranteed and, even if acquired, reinfection has potentially a weakened body that it may attack. Long Covid is a parallel symptom of infection, that may continue for years, outlasting immunity but you can be certain that vaccine derived immunity will not sustain Long Covid. Organ damage may result from Covid. I'd rather not impair my organs, especially as there are no guarantees of getting transplants.
Of course, 1 of the consequences of potentially getting infection-derived immunity, is that you may need hospitalisation and may die. Those are consequences that are avoidable and highly costly to others, potentially helping others to die too. I'd not be comfortable with that.
In any event, there are mixed conclusions from the research. As Campbell doesn't appear to have appropriate expertise in epidemiology etc, that I'd not even consider looking anywhere else other than in the recognised professional literature, for evidence that's peer-reviewed. Certainty not on a quack's paradise, where such dubious charlatans may promote unsubstantiated points that they earn money from, without any of the oversight, responsibilities or honesty that true professionals and global networks of expertise invest. "Epidemiology was introduced in to nursing by Florence Nightingale and became sophisticated enough about 100 years ago to crack how TB was spreading. Since then nurses learn epidemiology. They are taught to be detectives, not just wipe our butts. This man has a long career of teaching them it. Give him some credit. | |||
"I've read quite a few studies of late where they did find that natural vs just vaccinated was a higher protection against re infection. ... " And if the infection was recent, it'd be more up to date than a vaccine (so to speak). | |||
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"This John Campbell doesn't even have the training of a medical Doctor, so isn't the type of individual that I would consult. And, especially as he's been criticized for promotion of misinformation. Ivermectin was touted by some in the pandemic, despite its risks and it has no evidence backing it. I'm sure most of us recall that. In any event, there have been multiple studies of immunity gained from vaccines and infections. Infection acquired immunity is not guaranteed and, even if acquired, reinfection has potentially a weakened body that it may attack. Long Covid is a parallel symptom of infection, that may continue for years, outlasting immunity but you can be certain that vaccine derived immunity will not sustain Long Covid. Organ damage may result from Covid. I'd rather not impair my organs, especially as there are no guarantees of getting transplants.
Of course, 1 of the consequences of potentially getting infection-derived immunity, is that you may need hospitalisation and may die. Those are consequences that are avoidable and highly costly to others, potentially helping others to die too. I'd not be comfortable with that.
In any event, there are mixed conclusions from the research. As Campbell doesn't appear to have appropriate expertise in epidemiology etc, that I'd not even consider looking anywhere else other than in the recognised professional literature, for evidence that's peer-reviewed. Certainty not on a quack's paradise, where such dubious charlatans may promote unsubstantiated points that they earn money from, without any of the oversight, responsibilities or honesty that true professionals and global networks of expertise invest.
Epidemiology was introduced in to nursing by Florence Nightingale and became sophisticated enough about 100 years ago to crack how TB was spreading.
Since then nurses learn epidemiology. They are taught to be detectives, not just wipe our butts.
This man has a long career of teaching them it.
Give him some credit."I don't fail to duly credit nurses but I avoid this quack, relying instead directly on credible research sources. He's unreliable and has severe limitations, including those covered above. | |||
"How the feck would they know with people showing no symptoms but passing it on??? Ffs Full natural immunity fills the body with T-cells which recognise the original pathogen and its mutations, they trigger the production of C-cells, specifically designed to hunt and kill it. This body attacks the pathogen before it gets chance to enter a suitable cell and replicate. Also, a virus relies on symptoms to spread, “coughs and sneezes spreads diseases” turns out to be true" C cells is a typo? Lymphocytes (white blood cells) produce B cells (antibodies and memory cells) and T cells aka killer T/cytotoxic cells. | |||
"How the feck would they know with people showing no symptoms but passing it on??? Ffs Full natural immunity fills the body with T-cells which recognise the original pathogen and its mutations, they trigger the production of C-cells, specifically designed to hunt and kill it. This body attacks the pathogen before it gets chance to enter a suitable cell and replicate. Also, a virus relies on symptoms to spread, “coughs and sneezes spreads diseases” turns out to be true C cells is a typo? Lymphocytes (white blood cells) produce B cells (antibodies and memory cells) and T cells aka killer T/cytotoxic cells." Cheers I shouldn’t text late | |||
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"My family must have a terrible immune system then as they keep getting viruses that put them in bed for ages. I'm interested to see what happens this winter." Tell me they're all men Nanna  | |||
"My family must have a terrible immune system then as they keep getting viruses that put them in bed for ages. I'm interested to see what happens this winter. Tell me they're all men Nanna "Nope, male and female of different ages. Two Christmases ruined because half my immediate family were ill in bed. | |||
"Mmm natural immunity to measles? Polio? Etc etc. " Relevance? | |||
"This John Campbell doesn't even have the training of a medical Doctor, so isn't the type of individual that I would consult. And, especially as he's been criticized for promotion of misinformation. Ivermectin was touted by some in the pandemic, despite its risks and it has no evidence backing it. I'm sure most of us recall that. In any event, there have been multiple studies of immunity gained from vaccines and infections. Infection acquired immunity is not guaranteed and, even if acquired, reinfection has potentially a weakened body that it may attack. Long Covid is a parallel symptom of infection, that may continue for years, outlasting immunity but you can be certain that vaccine derived immunity will not sustain Long Covid. Organ damage may result from Covid. I'd rather not impair my organs, especially as there are no guarantees of getting transplants.
Of course, 1 of the consequences of potentially getting infection-derived immunity, is that you may need hospitalisation and may die. Those are consequences that are avoidable and highly costly to others, potentially helping others to die too. I'd not be comfortable with that.
In any event, there are mixed conclusions from the research. As Campbell doesn't appear to have appropriate expertise in epidemiology etc, that I'd not even consider looking anywhere else other than in the recognised professional literature, for evidence that's peer-reviewed. Certainty not on a quack's paradise, where such dubious charlatans may promote unsubstantiated points that they earn money from, without any of the oversight, responsibilities or honesty that true professionals and global networks of expertise invest.
Epidemiology was introduced in to nursing by Florence Nightingale and became sophisticated enough about 100 years ago to crack how TB was spreading.
Since then nurses learn epidemiology. They are taught to be detectives, not just wipe our butts.
This man has a long career of teaching them it.
Give him some credit.
I don't fail to duly credit nurses but I avoid this quack, relying instead directly on credible research sources. He's unreliable and has severe limitations, including those covered above. "Ah, you avoid this "quack" but are somehow able to comment on the validity of his content? If you saw any you'd see he references all the latest studies and takes people through them in lay terms. As for his misrepresentation of the efficacy of treatments, he has apologised publicly for that and explained how he came to the wrong conclusions. Spoiler alert...it was listening to "The Science". Any who, keep avoiding the quacks. | |||
"This John Campbell doesn't even have the training of a medical Doctor, so isn't the type of individual that I would consult. And, especially as he's been criticized for promotion of misinformation. Ivermectin was touted by some in the pandemic, despite its risks and it has no evidence backing it. I'm sure most of us recall that. In any event, there have been multiple studies of immunity gained from vaccines and infections. Infection acquired immunity is not guaranteed and, even if acquired, reinfection has potentially a weakened body that it may attack. Long Covid is a parallel symptom of infection, that may continue for years, outlasting immunity but you can be certain that vaccine derived immunity will not sustain Long Covid. Organ damage may result from Covid. I'd rather not impair my organs, especially as there are no guarantees of getting transplants.
Of course, 1 of the consequences of potentially getting infection-derived immunity, is that you may need hospitalisation and may die. Those are consequences that are avoidable and highly costly to others, potentially helping others to die too. I'd not be comfortable with that.
In any event, there are mixed conclusions from the research. As Campbell doesn't appear to have appropriate expertise in epidemiology etc, that I'd not even consider looking anywhere else other than in the recognised professional literature, for evidence that's peer-reviewed. Certainty not on a quack's paradise, where such dubious charlatans may promote unsubstantiated points that they earn money from, without any of the oversight, responsibilities or honesty that true professionals and global networks of expertise invest.
Epidemiology was introduced in to nursing by Florence Nightingale and became sophisticated enough about 100 years ago to crack how TB was spreading.
Since then nurses learn epidemiology. They are taught to be detectives, not just wipe our butts.
This man has a long career of teaching them it.
Give him some credit.
I don't fail to duly credit nurses but I avoid this quack, relying instead directly on credible research sources. He's unreliable and has severe limitations, including those covered above.
Ah, you avoid this "quack" but are somehow able to comment on the validity of his content?
If you saw any you'd see he references all the latest studies and takes people through them in lay terms.
As for his misrepresentation of the efficacy of treatments, he has apologised publicly for that and explained how he came to the wrong conclusions.
Spoiler alert...it was listening to "The Science".
Any who, keep avoiding the quacks. "John is an interesting chap, decent enough nurse but like many people he has a weakness for being told how great he is. | |||
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" John is an interesting chap, decent enough nurse but like many people he has a weakness for being told how great he is." I can't speak to that. I do watch his overviews with an objective eye and, whilst he does have a bias which is shown in his choice of studies, he seems to present them fairly and simply for the lay man. It is frustrating when people criticise without having watched any of his output. The worst is when they sat that, as a nurse, he is unqualified to do this. I would argue that those inside the health care bubble are more biased in their assessment and that why I don't listen to drug peddlers. Ivor Cummins, for example, is an engineer and his analysis of the government statistics is enlightened as he approaches from a different perspective. If you haven't watched his Covid content, it's worth a watch. Doctors are invested in the allopathic model of "care of the sick" and do not have a rounded view of their subject. They are a product of the pharmaceutical sponsored medical education system and risk discipline procedures if they do not follow "guidelines". How can you expect these people to be unbiased in their assessment of what went on in the pandemic. The "quacks" are able to quack because their livelihoods do not depend on following big pharma's narrative. | |||
"This John Campbell doesn't even have the training of a medical Doctor, so isn't the type of individual that I would consult. And, especially as he's been criticized for promotion of misinformation. Ivermectin was touted by some in the pandemic, despite its risks and it has no evidence backing it. I'm sure most of us recall that. In any event, there have been multiple studies of immunity gained from vaccines and infections. Infection acquired immunity is not guaranteed and, even if acquired, reinfection has potentially a weakened body that it may attack. Long Covid is a parallel symptom of infection, that may continue for years, outlasting immunity but you can be certain that vaccine derived immunity will not sustain Long Covid. Organ damage may result from Covid. I'd rather not impair my organs, especially as there are no guarantees of getting transplants.
Of course, 1 of the consequences of potentially getting infection-derived immunity, is that you may need hospitalisation and may die. Those are consequences that are avoidable and highly costly to others, potentially helping others to die too. I'd not be comfortable with that.
In any event, there are mixed conclusions from the research. As Campbell doesn't appear to have appropriate expertise in epidemiology etc, that I'd not even consider looking anywhere else other than in the recognised professional literature, for evidence that's peer-reviewed. Certainty not on a quack's paradise, where such dubious charlatans may promote unsubstantiated points that they earn money from, without any of the oversight, responsibilities or honesty that true professionals and global networks of expertise invest.
Epidemiology was introduced in to nursing by Florence Nightingale and became sophisticated enough about 100 years ago to crack how TB was spreading.
Since then nurses learn epidemiology. They are taught to be detectives, not just wipe our butts.
This man has a long career of teaching them it.
Give him some credit.
I don't fail to duly credit nurses but I avoid this quack, relying instead directly on credible research sources. He's unreliable and has severe limitations, including those covered above.
Ah, you avoid this "quack" but are somehow able to comment on the validity of his content?
If you saw any you'd see he references all the latest studies and takes people through them in lay terms.
As for his misrepresentation of the efficacy of treatments, he has apologised publicly for that and explained how he came to the wrong conclusions.
Spoiler alert...it was listening to "The Science".
Any who, keep avoiding the quacks.
John is an interesting chap, decent enough nurse but like many people he has a weakness for being told how great he is."John always backs it up with data that is available for everyone to see, like he did with the study in israel. I wonder what people thinks of his way of showing it this way? | |||
".John always backs it up with data that is available for everyone to see, like he did with the study in israel. I wonder what people thinks of his way of showing it this way? "I find the whole pen and paper thing tedious. His delivery is a bit repetitive. But he is aiming at the average, or less than average, person in the street and his aim seems to be education. | |||
"As somebody pointed out .. natural immunity to Polio, Measles etc. These are traditional vaccines and very very different to the Covid vaccine. If you rely on Pharma and rubbish food, lack of excersise to dictate your life then your immunity will be compromised. People can't even be bothered to wash their cars these days let alone look after themselves.....Ramming loads of vaccines into kids is a recipe for disaster. The body is the ultimate machine, you put something foreign into it and there will be a reaction. Pharma is all about profit . ..they want you sick" its people not getting their children vaccinated that has led to a recent increase in diseases such as measles and mumps... even polio has been on the rise. As more and more parents are refusing to let their children be vaccinated. | |||
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".John always backs it up with data that is available for everyone to see, like he did with the study in israel. I wonder what people thinks of his way of showing it this way?
I find the whole pen and paper thing tedious.
His delivery is a bit repetitive.
But he is aiming at the average, or less than average, person in the street and his aim seems to be education.
"Yes, it can be that too. I find it is good and fun, like when sometimes he draws diagrams, he can explain a complex thing in such a way that everyone can understand it  | |||
"As somebody pointed out .. natural immunity to Polio, Measles etc. These are traditional vaccines and very very different to the Covid vaccine. If you rely on Pharma and rubbish food, lack of excersise to dictate your life then your immunity will be compromised. People can't even be bothered to wash their cars these days let alone look after themselves.....Ramming loads of vaccines into kids is a recipe for disaster. The body is the ultimate machine, you put something foreign into it and there will be a reaction. Pharma is all about profit . ..they want you sick" | |||
"Wasn't vaccinated but caught covid didn't have to see a doc or Go to hospital I kinda just got over it within a few days must of been naturally immune to it or just one hell of an immune system definitely had covid tested positive 3 times have been vaccinated since due to work protocols" Work protocols? Please explain this for me | |||
"Natural immunity wins by isolating the infection rate..." Elaborate please | |||
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"It's alright if you don't mind sacrificing your parents/grandarents/immunocompromised friends and relatives to get it. " That argument was only valid during the pandemic of a novel pathogen. Now you'll just avoid them when poorly. Just like you would if infected by any pathogen. | |||
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"It's alright if you don't mind sacrificing your parents/grandarents/immunocompromised friends and relatives to get it. " Really poor logic.. | |||
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"It's alright if you don't mind sacrificing your parents/grandarents/immunocompromised friends and relatives to get it. Really poor logic.." I think that's the point he was making. | |||
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"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school." What a stupid comparison.. Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it. | |||
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"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school. What a stupid comparison.. Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it." So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x | |||
"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school. What a stupid comparison.. Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x" I think you have to be born with this natural immunity type, you know just like stupidity, it's a pre-defined gene. Well I think that because I've just been to Tesco and they had no stock and didn't know what it was. | |||
"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school. What a stupid comparison.. Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x" I was replying specifically to the OPs post that people do not develop natural immunity to TB which infact they do.... TB can be a very dangerous disease and people should absolutely be vaccinated for it. | |||
"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school. What a stupid comparison.. Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x I think you have to be born with this natural immunity type, you know just like stupidity, it's a pre-defined gene. Well I think that because I've just been to Tesco and they had no stock and didn't know what it was." Another nonsensical post | |||
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"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school. What a stupid comparison.. Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x I think you have to be born with this natural immunity type, you know just like stupidity, it's a pre-defined gene. Well I think that because I've just been to Tesco and they had no stock and didn't know what it was. Another nonsensical post " Do you think so....you'd think with all this cancer kicking about for thousands of years, the body would have developed a natural immunity to that as well. | |||
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"Letting our bodies do their natural thing and form their own resistance to viruses, isn't very profitable for drug companies and those who have stakes in them. Shock horror. " Nor is it reliable for people. We may not develop any, nor a reliable, immune response that's effective, from infections . We may get irreparable damage to organs and their failure, or death instead.
Vaccines give a precise, measured dose that have predictable immune responses . We'll know the proportion of those with good effective immunity, how much death and serious illness are prevented and are able to see the cost effectiveness of vaccination versus the preventable damage.
Vaccines or infections trigger the same immune systems responses. Millions of lives have been and are secured. Countless grief prevented. It's tragic that singular acts by the likes of the fraudulent peoples' acts, like the discredited Wakefield pose such threats to the wellbeing of humanity. All whilst we have the technology and medical expertise to keep us safe.
We'll undoubtedly have future pandemics and we should prepare for them, not losing the experience that we've gained. Vaccines will almost certainly be a big part of this. | |||
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"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school. What a stupid comparison.. Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x I think you have to be born with this natural immunity type, you know just like stupidity, it's a pre-defined gene. Well I think that because I've just been to Tesco and they had no stock and didn't know what it was. Another nonsensical post Do you think so....you'd think with all this cancer kicking about for thousands of years, the body would have developed a natural immunity to that as well. " Fist of all Cancer is not an infectious disease.. For the vast majority of human history the lifespan has been so short that cancer would not cause any selection pressure on evolution. As early as 1900 the adverage global life expectancy was 31. Please stop posting because your just making yourself look stupid. | |||
"Remember when they told us having no symptoms was one of the symptoms "Nope | |||
"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school. What a stupid comparison.. Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x I think you have to be born with this natural immunity type, you know just like stupidity, it's a pre-defined gene. Well I think that because I've just been to Tesco and they had no stock and didn't know what it was. Another nonsensical post Do you think so....you'd think with all this cancer kicking about for thousands of years, the body would have developed a natural immunity to that as well. " The majority of cancers have no direct/indirect connection to pathogens. | |||
"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school. What a stupid comparison.. Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x I think you have to be born with this natural immunity type, you know just like stupidity, it's a pre-defined gene. Well I think that because I've just been to Tesco and they had no stock and didn't know what it was. Another nonsensical post Do you think so....you'd think with all this cancer kicking about for thousands of years, the body would have developed a natural immunity to that as well. Fist of all Cancer is not an infectious disease.. For the vast majority of human history the lifespan has been so short that cancer would not cause any selection pressure on evolution. As early as 1900 the adverage global life expectancy was 31. Please stop posting because your just making yourself look stupid." There's no need for this! | |||
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" Vaccines give a precise, measured dose " With traditional vaccines yes. Mrna vaccines are different due to your body actually making the antigen. This obviously can differ from person to person and in some cases by a substantial amount. | |||
" Vaccines or infections trigger the same immune systems responses. Millions of lives have been and are secured. Countless grief prevented. " The Covid 19 vaccine and the infection immune system responses are different and are not the same.. I do agree with you though, that potentially millions of lives globally of sick and vulnerable people have been saved by the vaccines. | |||
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"If I recall correctly, dr fauci also said that natural immunity is better too "If we all had it and the virus couldn't mutate. | |||
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"If I recall correctly, dr fauci also said that natural immunity is better too
If we all had it and the virus couldn't mutate.
"We all have an innate and adaptive immune system. | |||
" Vaccines or infections trigger the same immune systems responses. Millions of lives have been and are secured. Countless grief prevented. The Covid 19 vaccine and the infection immune system responses are different... " Explain please | |||
" Vaccines give a precise, measured dose With traditional vaccines yes. Mrna vaccines are different due to your body actually making the antigen. This obviously can differ from person to person and in some cases by a substantial amount." to prompt an immune response by creating antibodies. | |||
" Vaccines or infections trigger the same immune systems responses. Millions of lives have been and are secured. Countless grief prevented. The Covid 19 vaccine and the infection immune system responses are different... Explain please" Sure, Antibodies from the vaccine are solely going to target the spike protein. The vaccine will create a very strong systemic immune response but mucosal immunity is poorly activated. | |||
"The study quoted is interesting but pretty irrelevant now. The vast majority of people in the UK have now had covid and so have "natural immunity". A more relevant question is to compare those who have had the vaccine and covid against those who have just had covid. Not surprisingly those who have both do better as the vaccine and infection stimulate the immune system in different ways. Protection at 12 months after the vaccine against hospital admission is 97.4% vs 74.6% for those without. If you would like to read the paper which is a meta-analysis of 26 studies combined the doi is 10.1136/bmj.p171" It's floored if the study is grouping all non vaccinated people into one group. If you have old and vulnerable people, that are at serious risk of becoming very ill or dieing not having the vaccine when they should that is really going to screw the data. | |||
"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school. What a stupid comparison.. Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x" I got my tb jab, guess what? Never got tb. Can't say the same for my covid jabs. Still caught it, twice after my jabs. If you told me that my tb jab was gonna be sooo effective I could still catch TB multiple times, despite many doses and boosters, I'd prob pass on that too. | |||
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"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school. What a stupid comparison.. Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x I think you have to be born with this natural immunity type, you know just like stupidity, it's a pre-defined gene. Well I think that because I've just been to Tesco and they had no stock and didn't know what it was. Another nonsensical post Do you think so....you'd think with all this cancer kicking about for thousands of years, the body would have developed a natural immunity to that as well. Fist of all Cancer is not an infectious disease.. For the vast majority of human history the lifespan has been so short that cancer would not cause any selection pressure on evolution. As early as 1900 the adverage global life expectancy was 31. Please stop posting because your just making yourself look stupid." Lol...go get a job on GB News there will be a niche audience who think your clever. | |||
"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school. What a stupid comparison.. Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x I think you have to be born with this natural immunity type, you know just like stupidity, it's a pre-defined gene. Well I think that because I've just been to Tesco and they had no stock and didn't know what it was. Another nonsensical post Do you think so....you'd think with all this cancer kicking about for thousands of years, the body would have developed a natural immunity to that as well. Fist of all Cancer is not an infectious disease.. For the vast majority of human history the lifespan has been so short that cancer would not cause any selection pressure on evolution. As early as 1900 the adverage global life expectancy was 31. Please stop posting because your just making yourself look stupid. Lol...go get a job on GB News there will be a niche audience who think your clever." You're** | |||
"I've had vaccines and covid multiple times. Does that make me super immune? My friend group recently had an outbreak of it. Despite being around everyone when they believe it was passed around there was only me and one other who didn't catch it or I was asymptomatic and not showing as infected on a test." Have you been on the company of someone with the cold and not caught the cold. I've had it twice now, to be honest it was relatively worse than a bad cold but not as bad as full blown flu. I'm relatively fit and healthy, however I've a mate who was just about over the edge. There is a lot of mumbo jumbo kicking about and in the day and age even more Internet doctors, scientists and theologians. However my last word on this is the human body does not create antibodies that last a life time in 24 months. The doctors are the best place to give us advice and care on how to look after ourself and it is proven beyond doubt without the jab the death toll would have been far far higher in any statistic. Enjoy the thread, I'm out. | |||
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" Vaccines or infections trigger the same immune systems responses. Millions of lives have been and are secured. Countless grief prevented. The Covid 19 vaccine and the infection immune system responses are different... Explain please Sure, Antibodies from the vaccine are solely going to target the spike protein. The vaccine will create a very strong systemic immune response but mucosal immunity is poorly activated." Very unclear. As you have put vaccine in both paragraphs. You're supposedly explaining how the vaccines and infection produce a different immune response. Also, where are you getting your info? | |||
"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school. What a stupid comparison.. Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x I think you have to be born with this natural immunity type, you know just like stupidity, it's a pre-defined gene. Well I think that because I've just been to Tesco and they had no stock and didn't know what it was. Another nonsensical post Do you think so....you'd think with all this cancer kicking about for thousands of years, the body would have developed a natural immunity to that as well. Fist of all Cancer is not an infectious disease.. For the vast majority of human history the lifespan has been so short that cancer would not cause any selection pressure on evolution. As early as 1900 the adverage global life expectancy was 31. Please stop posting because your just making yourself look stupid. Lol...go get a job on GB News there will be a niche audience who think your clever. You're**" People in glass houses should not throw stones. "Floored". | |||
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" Vaccines or infections trigger the same immune systems responses. Millions of lives have been and are secured. Countless grief prevented. The Covid 19 vaccine and the infection immune system responses are different... Explain please Sure, Antibodies from the vaccine are solely going to target the spike protein. The vaccine will create a very strong systemic immune response but mucosal immunity is poorly activated. Very unclear. As you have put vaccine in both paragraphs. You're supposedly explaining how the vaccines and infection produce a different immune response. Also, where are you getting your info? " What is it you are finding unclear? When I said vaccine I was referring specificly to the Mrna vaccine not traditional vaccines. Yes, covid 19 vaccine and infection produce a different immune response. | |||
"And round and around we go. The concept sounds good. But as most threads in the topic for the last years... It descends into prejudiced parroting rather than informed debate. " This is very true and from both sides. | |||
"I don't see a natural immunity to TB over the years, I thought thats why we all got a job at school. What a stupid comparison.. Also FYI If you did aquire a TB infection your body would develop enough natural immunity to make it inactive although not enough to clear it.So what about the 1.6 million that TB killed in 2022? Why did they not develop natural immunity. Mrs x I think you have to be born with this natural immunity type, you know just like stupidity, it's a pre-defined gene. Well I think that because I've just been to Tesco and they had no stock and didn't know what it was. Another nonsensical post Do you think so....you'd think with all this cancer kicking about for thousands of years, the body would have developed a natural immunity to that as well. Fist of all Cancer is not an infectious disease.. For the vast majority of human history the lifespan has been so short that cancer would not cause any selection pressure on evolution. As early as 1900 the adverage global life expectancy was 31. Please stop posting because your just making yourself look stupid. Lol...go get a job on GB News there will be a niche audience who think your clever. You're** People in glass houses should not throw stones. "Floored"." Where does it say "Floored" in what you have quoted? | |||
"And round and around we go. The concept sounds good. But as most threads in the topic for the last years... It descends into prejudiced parroting rather than informed debate. This is very true and from both sides." Very true... However many sides there are... Its evident that with a few exceptions we all just spout those we consider to be credible and those sources that matches our own biases. Of course personal experiences are different and I would suggest a better source than anything else. | |||
"The study quoted is interesting but pretty irrelevant now. The vast majority of people in the UK have now had covid and so have "natural immunity". A more relevant question is to compare those who have had the vaccine and covid against those who have just had covid. Not surprisingly those who have both do better as the vaccine and infection stimulate the immune system in different ways. Protection at 12 months after the vaccine against hospital admission is 97.4% vs 74.6% for those without. If you would like to read the paper which is a meta-analysis of 26 studies combined the doi is 10.1136/bmj.p171 It's floored if the study is grouping all non vaccinated people into one group. If you have old and vulnerable people, that are at serious risk of becoming very ill or dieing not having the vaccine when they should that is really going to screw the data. " This is you stating floored. | |||
" Vaccines or infections trigger the same immune systems responses. Millions of lives have been and are secured. Countless grief prevented. The Covid 19 vaccine and the infection immune system responses are different... Explain please Sure, Antibodies from the vaccine are solely going to target the spike protein. The vaccine will create a very strong systemic immune response but mucosal immunity is poorly activated. Very unclear. As you have put vaccine in both paragraphs. You're supposedly explaining how the vaccines and infection produce a different immune response. Also, where are you getting your info? What is it you are finding unclear? When I said vaccine I was referring specificly to the Mrna vaccine not traditional vaccines. Yes, covid 19 vaccine and infection produce a different immune response." Reread the entire post. I asked you to explain the different immune responses (a) to the (mRNA) vaccine, (b) to the covid infection. Your response states vaccine, vaccine... IE not infection. And then simply yes, the immune response differs. And again I ask for source of info. | |||
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"Natural immunity to me for what it's worth is for those people at what you might call the deep end of the gene pool that never get colds or illnesses. And science doesn't really understand why..." Science does understand why to a certain extent. You need to look at innate and adaptive immune system. | |||
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"Natural immunity to me for what it's worth is for those people at what you might call the deep end of the gene pool that never get colds or illnesses. And science doesn't really understand why. But as usual some pretty poor comments on various vaccines for TB (a bacteria) v Viruses that are much more nimble and mutate far more readily which is why vaccines are not do effective from year to year. Oh and for the big Sharma deniers I presume they've got a cure for cancer but don't want to share it so they can flog expensive chemo drugs right? In other news Measles vaccination is at record lows in London and kids will die and more maimed for life. Congrats anti vaxxers." Thing is its not just anti vaxxers fault. Perhaps consider also that undeniably big pharma have lied and misrepresented at times, have made suspiciously large sums of money at times and do not have a great pr. (for balance they so some amazing stuff too). Dr's,and health service and govt agency's have done a pretty shitty job of managing the comms and info around particularly covid but other programs too (and also done some good stuff too).. Social media and malign agents have been encouraged to click for money by peddling their wears.... It is very easy to understand why some people are sceptical and or pro choice and or anti... It will require a lot of smart effort to turn that around and people don't even seem to acknowledge it, let alone put in any effort to address it. | |||
"Mmm natural immunity to measles? Polio? Etc etc. " We can't even sort out the numerous common cold viruses, all we can do is practice good hygiene and alleviate the symptoms, | |||
" Vaccines or infections trigger the same immune systems responses. Millions of lives have been and are secured. Countless grief prevented. The Covid 19 vaccine and the infection immune system responses are different... Explain please Sure, Antibodies from the vaccine are solely going to target the spike protein. The vaccine will create a very strong systemic immune response but mucosal immunity is poorly activated. Very unclear. As you have put vaccine in both paragraphs. You're supposedly explaining how the vaccines and infection produce a different immune response. Also, where are you getting your info? What is it you are finding unclear? When I said vaccine I was referring specificly to the Mrna vaccine not traditional vaccines. Yes, covid 19 vaccine and infection produce a different immune response. Reread the entire post. I asked you to explain the different immune responses (a) to the (mRNA) vaccine, (b) to the covid infection. Your response states vaccine, vaccine... IE not infection. And then simply yes, the immune response differs. And again I ask for source of info." If you are agreeing the immune response differs from a COVID-19 infection to the immune response derived from the COVID-19 vaccine what is it you are want me to source? I did explain the different immune responses. Antibodies from the vaccine will ONLY target the spike protein as that is the only antigen present in the vaccine. Antibodies from an infection tend to be broader An infection from COVID-19 will be in the mucosal membranes and stimulate a mucosal immune response. The spike protein from the vaccine are systemic and so produce a poor mucosal immune response. | |||
"Natural immunity to me for what it's worth is for those people at what you might call the deep end of the gene pool that never get colds or illnesses. And science doesn't really understand why. But as usual some pretty poor comments on various vaccines for TB (a bacteria) v Viruses that are much more nimble and mutate far more readily which is why vaccines are not do effective from year to year. Oh and for the big Sharma deniers I presume they've got a cure for cancer but don't want to share it so they can flog expensive chemo drugs right? In other news Measles vaccination is at record lows in London and kids will die and more maimed for life. Congrats anti vaxxers. Thing is its not just anti vaxxers fault. Perhaps consider also that undeniably big pharma have lied and misrepresented at times, have made suspiciously large sums of money at times and do not have a great pr. (for balance they so some amazing stuff too). Dr's,and health service and govt agency's have done a pretty shitty job of managing the comms and info around particularly covid but other programs too (and also done some good stuff too).. Social media and malign agents have been encouraged to click for money by peddling their wears.... It is very easy to understand why some people are sceptical and or pro choice and or anti... It will require a lot of smart effort to turn that around and people don't even seem to acknowledge it, let alone put in any effort to address it. " Completely agree and very well put. | |||
Natural? | |||
" Vaccines or infections trigger the same immune systems responses. Millions of lives have been and are secured. Countless grief prevented. The Covid 19 vaccine and the infection immune system responses are different... Explain please Sure, Antibodies from the vaccine are solely going to target the spike protein. The vaccine will create a very strong systemic immune response but mucosal immunity is poorly activated. Very unclear. As you have put vaccine in both paragraphs. You're supposedly explaining how the vaccines and infection produce a different immune response. Also, where are you getting your info? What is it you are finding unclear? When I said vaccine I was referring specificly to the Mrna vaccine not traditional vaccines. Yes, covid 19 vaccine and infection produce a different immune response. Reread the entire post. I asked you to explain the different immune responses (a) to the (mRNA) vaccine, (b) to the covid infection. Your response states vaccine, vaccine... IE not infection. And then simply yes, the immune response differs. And again I ask for source of info. If you are agreeing the immune response differs from a COVID-19 infection to the immune response derived from the COVID-19 vaccine what is it you are want me to source? I did explain the different immune responses. Antibodies from the vaccine will ONLY target the spike protein as that is the only antigen present in the vaccine. Antibodies from an infection tend to be broader An infection from COVID-19 will be in the mucosal membranes and stimulate a mucosal immune response. The spike protein from the vaccine are systemic and so produce a poor mucosal immune response." Ok rereading it, I see your paragraphing is poor (you having vaccine in two paragraphs). I'm not having a go cos mine is sometimes poor here. After all we're not having it marked  .
Once upon a time I could understand people's gobbledygook, poor spelling or poor grammar. Since an ABI it can be difficult.
I see you're indicating our immune system is not our body's first line of defence, true, but who is expecting the vaccine to prepare our entire body to a subsequent/potential infection?
As for source, your job, simply acquiring knowledge, or what? | |||
" Vaccines or infections trigger the same immune systems responses. Millions of lives have been and are secured. Countless grief prevented. The Covid 19 vaccine and the infection immune system responses are different... Explain please Sure, Antibodies from the vaccine are solely going to target the spike protein. The vaccine will create a very strong systemic immune response but mucosal immunity is poorly activated. Very unclear. As you have put vaccine in both paragraphs. You're supposedly explaining how the vaccines and infection produce a different immune response. Also, where are you getting your info? What is it you are finding unclear? When I said vaccine I was referring specificly to the Mrna vaccine not traditional vaccines. Yes, covid 19 vaccine and infection produce a different immune response. Reread the entire post. I asked you to explain the different immune responses (a) to the (mRNA) vaccine, (b) to the covid infection. Your response states vaccine, vaccine... IE not infection. And then simply yes, the immune response differs. And again I ask for source of info. If you are agreeing the immune response differs from a COVID-19 infection to the immune response derived from the COVID-19 vaccine what is it you are want me to source? I did explain the different immune responses. Antibodies from the vaccine will ONLY target the spike protein as that is the only antigen present in the vaccine. Antibodies from an infection tend to be broader An infection from COVID-19 will be in the mucosal membranes and stimulate a mucosal immune response. The spike protein from the vaccine are systemic and so produce a poor mucosal immune response. Ok rereading it, I see your paragraphing is poor (you having vaccine in two paragraphs). I'm not having a go cos mine is sometimes poor here. After all we're not having it marked .
Once upon a time I could understand people's gobbledygook, poor spelling or poor grammar. Since an ABI it can be difficult.
I see you're indicating our immune system is not our body's first line of defence, true, but who is expecting the vaccine to prepare our entire body to a subsequent/potential infection?
As for source, your job, simply acquiring knowledge, or what?"No problem, I think it is fair to say spelling and grammar aren't my forte.
I would never have guessed you have had a ABI so hope it is not affecting you to much.
I think it's fair to say at one point MSM and health bodies where implying that the vaccine was alot more effective at stopping the spread of infection than it is. This has lead to alot of misconceptions for the public that people still repeat today.
I just enjoy reading and learning I have bias like everyone else but I'm not tribal and Im happy to change my position depending on what I have read.
Mucosal immune response from COVID-19 vaccine.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-3964(21)00582-X/fulltext
Individual response to Spike protein production posy vaccine l.
"Indeed, in a woman with mRNA-1273 COVID-19 vaccine-induced thrombocytopenia, plasma S protein levels 10 days after vaccination were 10 ng/ml [6], thus nearly 100 times higher than those reported by Ogata and colleagues in vaccinated subjects with no apparent adverse effects [2], pointing to possibly excessive vaccine-induced production of S protein, in turn attaining concentrations high enough to significantly bind targets such as ACE2, and eventually resulting in vaccine toxicity."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9494717/#:~:text=Indeed%2C%20in%20a%20woman%20with,pointing%20to%20possibly%20excessive%20vaccine%2D
Immune response to COVID-19
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9369212/ | |||
"Natural immunity to me for what it's worth is for those people at what you might call the deep end of the gene pool that never get colds or illnesses. And science doesn't really understand why. But as usual some pretty poor comments on various vaccines for TB (a bacteria) v Viruses that are much more nimble and mutate far more readily which is why vaccines are not do effective from year to year. Oh and for the big Sharma deniers I presume they've got a cure for cancer but don't want to share it so they can flog expensive chemo drugs right? In other news Measles vaccination is at record lows in London and kids will die and more maimed for life. Congrats anti vaxxers." You say that as if these pharma companies wouldn't piss on your corpse if it meant an increase in quarterly profits. Look into a few of the scandals if you even slightly believe any of them have anything but profits on their mind. It sways wildly from conspiracy to fact when you see how many dead lay at the feet of these companies. Without even having to do much digging Look at the recently public oxycontin debacle for proof of how little they care and how they will lie to make a few quid. ...and every one of these companies has similar stories. Yet you are a conspiricist if you claim "big pharma" isn't to be trusted  | |||
"Natural immunity to me for what it's worth is for those people at what you might call the deep end of the gene pool that never get colds or illnesses. And science doesn't really understand why. But as usual some pretty poor comments on various vaccines for TB (a bacteria) v Viruses that are much more nimble and mutate far more readily which is why vaccines are not do effective from year to year. Oh and for the big Sharma deniers I presume they've got a cure for cancer but don't want to share it so they can flog expensive chemo drugs right? In other news Measles vaccination is at record lows in London and kids will die and more maimed for life. Congrats anti vaxxers.You say that as if these pharma companies wouldn't piss on your corpse if it meant an increase in quarterly profits. Look into a few of the scandals if you even slightly believe any of them have anything but profits on their mind. It sways wildly from conspiracy to fact when you see how many dead lay at the feet of these companies. Without even having to do much digging Look at the recently public oxycontin debacle for proof of how little they care and how they will lie to make a few quid. ...and every one of these companies has similar stories. Yet you are a conspiricist if you claim "big pharma" isn't to be trusted "1. GlaxoSmithKline, $3 billion Drugs: Paxil, Wellbutrin, Avandia GlaxoSmithKline holds the dubious distinction of being forced to pay the largest health care fraud settlement in U.S. history. The criminal fine was $956,814,400 with a forfeiture of $43,185,600. $2 billion was paid to resolve civil liabilities under the False Claims Act. The penalties are related to deceptive marketing, including off-label promotion and kickbacks, and failure to report safety data. GSK agreed to pay based on: Promoting Paxil, Wellbutrin, Advair, Lamictal, and Zofran for off-label and non-covered uses, in addition to paying kickbacks to physicians for prescribing those drugs. Giving kickbacks to physicians for prescribing Imitrex, Lotronex, Flovent, and Valtrex. Making false and misleading statements about Avandia’s safety. False reporting to the Medicaid Drug Rebate Program. 2. Pfizer, $2.3 billion Drugs: Bextra, Geodon, Zyvox, Lyrica The criminal fine was $1.3 billion, and the additional $1 billion was for civil allegations under the False Claims Act. Pfizer falsely promoted Bextra, antipsychotic drug Geodon, antibiotic Zyvox, and antiepileptic Lyrica. The company was also accused of paying kickbacks related to these drugs and submitting false claims to government health care programs based on uses that weren’t medically accepted. Bextra was pulled from the market in 2005 after it was deemed unsafe. 3. Johnson & Johnson, $2.2 billion Drugs: Risperdal, Invega, Natrecor Criminal fines and forfeiture totaled $485 million, and civil settlements amounted to $1.72 billion. In the early 2000s, Risperdal was approved to treat schizophrenia. However, the company’s sales representatives were promoting the drug to physicians as a treatment for elderly dementia patients for anxiety, agitation, depression, hostility, and confusion. There were also allegations that Risperdal was marketed for other unapproved uses, such as prescription to children and individuals with mental disabilities. Invega and Natrecor were also included in these lawsuits as having been illegally marketed for off-label and unapproved uses.7 | |||
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"Natural immunity to me for what it's worth is for those people at what you might call the deep end of the gene pool that never get colds or illnesses. And science doesn't really understand why. But as usual some pretty poor comments on various vaccines for TB (a bacteria) v Viruses that are much more nimble and mutate far more readily which is why vaccines are not do effective from year to year. Oh and for the big Sharma deniers I presume they've got a cure for cancer but don't want to share it so they can flog expensive chemo drugs right? In other news Measles vaccination is at record lows in London and kids will die and more maimed for life. Congrats anti vaxxers.You say that as if these pharma companies wouldn't piss on your corpse if it meant an increase in quarterly profits. Look into a few of the scandals if you even slightly believe any of them have anything but profits on their mind. It sways wildly from conspiracy to fact when you see how many dead lay at the feet of these companies. Without even having to do much digging Look at the recently public oxycontin debacle for proof of how little they care and how they will lie to make a few quid. ...and every one of these companies has similar stories. Yet you are a conspiricist if you claim "big pharma" isn't to be trusted
1. GlaxoSmithKline, $3 billion
Drugs: Paxil, Wellbutrin, Avandia
GlaxoSmithKline holds the dubious distinction of being forced to pay the largest health care fraud settlement in U.S. history. The criminal fine was $956,814,400 with a forfeiture of $43,185,600. $2 billion was paid to resolve civil liabilities under the False Claims Act.
The penalties are related to deceptive marketing, including off-label promotion and kickbacks, and failure to report safety data.
GSK agreed to pay based on:
Promoting Paxil, Wellbutrin, Advair, Lamictal, and Zofran for off-label and non-covered uses, in addition to paying kickbacks to physicians for prescribing those drugs.
Giving kickbacks to physicians for prescribing Imitrex, Lotronex, Flovent, and Valtrex.
Making false and misleading statements about Avandia’s safety.
False reporting to the Medicaid Drug Rebate Program.
2. Pfizer, $2.3 billion
Drugs: Bextra, Geodon, Zyvox, Lyrica
The criminal fine was $1.3 billion, and the additional $1 billion was for civil allegations under the False Claims Act. Pfizer falsely promoted Bextra, antipsychotic drug Geodon, antibiotic Zyvox, and antiepileptic Lyrica. The company was also accused of paying kickbacks related to these drugs and submitting false claims to government health care programs based on uses that weren’t medically accepted.
Bextra was pulled from the market in 2005 after it was deemed unsafe.
3. Johnson & Johnson, $2.2 billion
Drugs: Risperdal, Invega, Natrecor
Criminal fines and forfeiture totaled $485 million, and civil settlements amounted to $1.72 billion.
In the early 2000s, Risperdal was approved to treat schizophrenia. However, the company’s sales representatives were promoting the drug to physicians as a treatment for elderly dementia patients for anxiety, agitation, depression, hostility, and confusion. There were also allegations that Risperdal was marketed for other unapproved uses, such as prescription to children and individuals with mental disabilities.
Invega and Natrecor were also included in these lawsuits as having been illegally marketed for off-label and unapproved uses.7"People see and believe what they want to see and believe. | |||
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