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Brexiteers destroyed Britain’s future - Mark Carney
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By *irldn OP Couple 2 weeks ago
Brighton |
The Independent…
Brexiteers destroyed Britain’s future, the former Bank of England governor Mark Carney has claimed.
Mr Carney made his comments as he delivered a keynote address at Canada 2020’s economic lookahead dinner in Toronto on Monday (22 April).
Mr Carney said: “Some right-wing populists see current anxieties as an opportunity to stoke anger because anger is what’s necessary for their project. After all, people don’t demolish things when htey are positive or optimistic.
“I know this from my time in the UK, where for years the rallying cry of Brexiteers has broken Britain, and their solution to take back control was actually code for tear down your future.” |
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Well I think we were going down the toilet long before Brexit.
Year's of austerity paying the price with for example schools crumbling and falling apart, councils going bust having to sell assets to stay afloat.
Can't see how Brexit or not has anything to do with failing councils.
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Two PhDs Carney told the uk pre brexit that it was a bad idea
31 (5%) of the 650 members of parliament have a PhD. Brexit benefits were back of fag packet calculations by these morons.
Reap what you sow. Time will tell it may come good, but no time soon. |
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*sets alarm for 24hrs time to return and have a read over the bin fire of boomers shrugging off the blatant, irrefutable fact that they were sold a lie, brexit is/was an irrefutable disaster and there hasn’t been a sunlit upland seen since* |
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The conservatives were focused on the continuation of their power. They have used several means to this end but they promised and invoked the referendum, as a tool to their retention of power. They were less interested in the well-being of the people or the country.
Johnson isn't and hasn't been interested in anything but himself. He pushed for leaving and didn't seek the best for the UK. It's really not been something that the UK will recover from quickly, if at all. And millions of citizens have had their rights and freedoms curtailed.
It's good that Carney is speaking his truth. |
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Carney has always been opposed to Brexit, so this is no surprise. He predicted Brexit would be a 'disaster' for the UK. But has it been really? Some economic bumps maybe, but not meltdown. The FTSE at an all-time high the £ strong. Liz Truss likely did more harm than Brexit in her short tenure of weeks. Long term, the UK will thrive despite the naysayers. |
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I don't think anyone will ever know for certain whether it is a good or bad thing. The difference is so slight, and larger events (Truss, Covid etc.) have skewed the picture.
Certainly the pro-Europe establishment have ensured that we have squandered any possible opportunities for advantage for years. So it is astonishing we are doing as well as we are. |
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By *irldn OP Couple 2 weeks ago
Brighton |
The problem is causality. Brexit supporters see anything positive and say “that is because of brexit” and anything negative “that isn’t because of brexit”. Remainers do the same but the other way around. But the complexities of the world with exogenous events such as Covid, war in Ukraine, continued war in the middle east, and impact of Trussenomics, means ot is impossible to isolate the impact of brexit wither positive or negative. Which in many ways makes it all seem so futile anyway! |
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"The problem is causality. Brexit supporters see anything positive and say “that is because of brexit” and anything negative “that isn’t because of brexit”. Remainers do the same but the other way around. But the complexities of the world with exogenous events such as Covid, war in Ukraine, continued war in the middle east, and impact of Trussenomics, means ot is impossible to isolate the impact of brexit wither positive or negative. Which in many ways makes it all seem so futile anyway!"
I believe that's the most sensible post you've written about Brexit in the last 2 years. Bravo  |
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"The problem is causality. Brexit supporters see anything positive and say “that is because of brexit” and anything negative “that isn’t because of brexit”. Remainers do the same but the other way around. But the complexities of the world with exogenous events such as Covid, war in Ukraine, continued war in the middle east, and impact of Trussenomics, means ot is impossible to isolate the impact of brexit wither positive or negative. Which in many ways makes it all seem so futile anyway!"
Think imma take Carney’s word for it tbh |
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"*sets alarm for 24hrs time to return and have a read over the bin fire of boomers shrugging off the blatant, irrefutable fact that they were sold a lie, brexit is/was an irrefutable disaster and there hasn’t been a sunlit upland seen since*"
The Brexit banter is my favourite type of thread on here. |
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"The problem is causality. Brexit supporters see anything positive and say “that is because of brexit” and anything negative “that isn’t because of brexit”. Remainers do the same but the other way around. But the complexities of the world with exogenous events such as Covid, war in Ukraine, continued war in the middle east, and impact of Trussenomics, means ot is impossible to isolate the impact of brexit wither positive or negative. Which in many ways makes it all seem so futile anyway!"
100% all of this. Sadly like many things in life the debate is so polarised, it’s either Brexit very bad or Brexit very good when the reality is somewhere in the middle and frankly we still don’t know as it’s too recent to make a valid determination. |
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"The problem is causality. Brexit supporters see anything positive and say “that is because of brexit” and anything negative “that isn’t because of brexit”. Remainers do the same but the other way around. But the complexities of the world with exogenous events such as Covid, war in Ukraine, continued war in the middle east, and impact of Trussenomics, means ot is impossible to isolate the impact of brexit wither positive or negative. Which in many ways makes it all seem so futile anyway!
100% all of this. Sadly like many things in life the debate is so polarised, it’s either Brexit very bad or Brexit very good when the reality is somewhere in the middle and frankly we still don’t know as it’s too recent to make a valid determination. "
Not sure I agree. So far we've got a lot of problems caused by Brexit. All of which are demonstrable. But as for the positives, all we have is a vague hope that the EU might collapse at some point in the distant future, and a bunch of unsubstantiated rhetoric. |
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By *irldn OP Couple 2 weeks ago
Brighton |
"The problem is causality. Brexit supporters see anything positive and say “that is because of brexit” and anything negative “that isn’t because of brexit”. Remainers do the same but the other way around. But the complexities of the world with exogenous events such as Covid, war in Ukraine, continued war in the middle east, and impact of Trussenomics, means ot is impossible to isolate the impact of brexit wither positive or negative. Which in many ways makes it all seem so futile anyway!
I believe that's the most sensible post you've written about Brexit in the last 2 years. Bravo "
High praise indeed 
My personal opinion, as you know, is Brexit was a bad idea. While the EU was flawed, I think the pros outweighed the cons. I also think it is better to be pissing out of the tent than trying to piss in. IMO Cameron should have used the result of the “advisory” referendum to force more concessions out of the EU.
However, we did leave and here we are so we do need to make the best of the situation. IMO we should not seek to rejoin as we will never get the sweet deal we gave up, so can only expect to be a member on poorer terms.
What I hope may be possible is for the UK to have a “special/unique relationship” with the EU in future.
But anyone saying Brexit is great is deluded and/or lying. Similarly anyone saying it is all bad. It isn’t. It just is what it is now and causality makes most things top hard to pin down. |
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"The problem is causality. Brexit supporters see anything positive and say “that is because of brexit” and anything negative “that isn’t because of brexit”. Remainers do the same but the other way around. But the complexities of the world with exogenous events such as Covid, war in Ukraine, continued war in the middle east, and impact of Trussenomics, means ot is impossible to isolate the impact of brexit wither positive or negative. Which in many ways makes it all seem so futile anyway!
100% all of this. Sadly like many things in life the debate is so polarised, it’s either Brexit very bad or Brexit very good when the reality is somewhere in the middle and frankly we still don’t know as it’s too recent to make a valid determination.
Not sure I agree. So far we've got a lot of problems caused by Brexit. All of which are demonstrable. But as for the positives, all we have is a vague hope that the EU might collapse at some point in the distant future, and a bunch of unsubstantiated rhetoric. "
Well good for you….. |
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"The problem is causality. Brexit supporters see anything positive and say “that is because of brexit” and anything negative “that isn’t because of brexit”. Remainers do the same but the other way around. But the complexities of the world with exogenous events such as Covid, war in Ukraine, continued war in the middle east, and impact of Trussenomics, means ot is impossible to isolate the impact of brexit wither positive or negative. Which in many ways makes it all seem so futile anyway!
100% all of this. Sadly like many things in life the debate is so polarised, it’s either Brexit very bad or Brexit very good when the reality is somewhere in the middle and frankly we still don’t know as it’s too recent to make a valid determination.
Not sure I agree. So far we've got a lot of problems caused by Brexit. All of which are demonstrable. But as for the positives, all we have is a vague hope that the EU might collapse at some point in the distant future, and a bunch of unsubstantiated rhetoric.
Well good for you….."
Well not really. But thanks. |
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By *irldn OP Couple 2 weeks ago
Brighton |
"The problem is causality. Brexit supporters see anything positive and say “that is because of brexit” and anything negative “that isn’t because of brexit”. Remainers do the same but the other way around. But the complexities of the world with exogenous events such as Covid, war in Ukraine, continued war in the middle east, and impact of Trussenomics, means ot is impossible to isolate the impact of brexit wither positive or negative. Which in many ways makes it all seem so futile anyway!
100% all of this. Sadly like many things in life the debate is so polarised, it’s either Brexit very bad or Brexit very good when the reality is somewhere in the middle and frankly we still don’t know as it’s too recent to make a valid determination.
Not sure I agree. So far we've got a lot of problems caused by Brexit. All of which are demonstrable. But as for the positives, all we have is a vague hope that the EU might collapse at some point in the distant future, and a bunch of unsubstantiated rhetoric. "
Johnny I don’t think that is completely true. There have been new trade deals for example. The pendulum may swing back and forth, but the reality is that neither extreme was correct.
I think the only thing we can be sure of is that a small number of people made a lot of money out of the chaos/uncertainty/change = disaster capitalists. |
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Truth is, it’s all opinion.
No one has a crystal ball or a Time Machine.
No one knows what could have happened if remain won the vote. Would we be some how better off? Would we be worse off?
All I know is I would still be broke living in a 3 bed mid terrace ex council house, working full time. I’m pretty sure my life hasn’t changed.
I think it’s time people moved on from this and found something else to whine about. |
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"The problem is causality. Brexit supporters see anything positive and say “that is because of brexit” and anything negative “that isn’t because of brexit”. Remainers do the same but the other way around. But the complexities of the world with exogenous events such as Covid, war in Ukraine, continued war in the middle east, and impact of Trussenomics, means ot is impossible to isolate the impact of brexit wither positive or negative. Which in many ways makes it all seem so futile anyway!
100% all of this. Sadly like many things in life the debate is so polarised, it’s either Brexit very bad or Brexit very good when the reality is somewhere in the middle and frankly we still don’t know as it’s too recent to make a valid determination.
Not sure I agree. So far we've got a lot of problems caused by Brexit. All of which are demonstrable. But as for the positives, all we have is a vague hope that the EU might collapse at some point in the distant future, and a bunch of unsubstantiated rhetoric.
Johnny I don’t think that is completely true. There have been new trade deals for example. The pendulum may swing back and forth, but the reality is that neither extreme was correct.
I think the only thing we can be sure of is that a small number of people made a lot of money out of the chaos/uncertainty/change = disaster capitalists."
Have the new trade deals been any better, or were they at best a replica of what we had in the EU? Have any of them made up for the trade deals we lost? Because if not, it's not really a positive.
Lots of the trade deals have been problematic because we've been under pressure as a smaller entity, and are being forced to make concessions that we wouldn't have as part of the EU.
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"Truth is, it’s all opinion.
No one has a crystal ball or a Time Machine.
"
It's not though, we know the damage caused by leaving the EU.
"
No one knows what could have happened if remain won the vote. Would we be some how better off? Would we be worse off?
"
We do know, we'd not have had to deal with all the problems it created.
"
All I know is I would still be broke living in a 3 bed mid terrace ex council house, working full time. I’m pretty sure my life hasn’t changed.
I think it’s time people moved on from this and found something else to whine about."
We can move on if we as a country can have a proper grown up discussion about how to mitigate against all the problems caused by leaving the EU. But our politicians are too scared to do this for fear of losing votes. So we're stuck in some kind of limbo pretending either it was a good idea, or that no-one-knows, it's too early to tell nonsense. |
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"The problem is causality. Brexit supporters see anything positive and say “that is because of brexit” and anything negative “that isn’t because of brexit”. Remainers do the same but the other way around. But the complexities of the world with exogenous events such as Covid, war in Ukraine, continued war in the middle east, and impact of Trussenomics, means ot is impossible to isolate the impact of brexit wither positive or negative. Which in many ways makes it all seem so futile anyway!
100% all of this. Sadly like many things in life the debate is so polarised, it’s either Brexit very bad or Brexit very good when the reality is somewhere in the middle and frankly we still don’t know as it’s too recent to make a valid determination.
Not sure I agree. So far we've got a lot of problems caused by Brexit. All of which are demonstrable. But as for the positives, all we have is a vague hope that the EU might collapse at some point in the distant future, and a bunch of unsubstantiated rhetoric.
Johnny I don’t think that is completely true. There have been new trade deals for example. The pendulum may swing back and forth, but the reality is that neither extreme was correct.
I think the only thing we can be sure of is that a small number of people made a lot of money out of the chaos/uncertainty/change = disaster capitalists.
Have the new trade deals been any better, or were they at best a replica of what we had in the EU? Have any of them made up for the trade deals we lost? Because if not, it's not really a positive.
Lots of the trade deals have been problematic because we've been under pressure as a smaller entity, and are being forced to make concessions that we wouldn't have as part of the EU.
"
What trade deals did the UK lose? |
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By *irldn OP Couple 2 weeks ago
Brighton |
"The problem is causality. Brexit supporters see anything positive and say “that is because of brexit” and anything negative “that isn’t because of brexit”. Remainers do the same but the other way around. But the complexities of the world with exogenous events such as Covid, war in Ukraine, continued war in the middle east, and impact of Trussenomics, means ot is impossible to isolate the impact of brexit wither positive or negative. Which in many ways makes it all seem so futile anyway!
100% all of this. Sadly like many things in life the debate is so polarised, it’s either Brexit very bad or Brexit very good when the reality is somewhere in the middle and frankly we still don’t know as it’s too recent to make a valid determination.
Not sure I agree. So far we've got a lot of problems caused by Brexit. All of which are demonstrable. But as for the positives, all we have is a vague hope that the EU might collapse at some point in the distant future, and a bunch of unsubstantiated rhetoric.
Johnny I don’t think that is completely true. There have been new trade deals for example. The pendulum may swing back and forth, but the reality is that neither extreme was correct.
I think the only thing we can be sure of is that a small number of people made a lot of money out of the chaos/uncertainty/change = disaster capitalists.
Have the new trade deals been any better, or were they at best a replica of what we had in the EU? Have any of them made up for the trade deals we lost? Because if not, it's not really a positive.
Lots of the trade deals have been problematic because we've been under pressure as a smaller entity, and are being forced to make concessions that we wouldn't have as part of the EU.
"
The vast majority of the trade deals were rollover deals that maintained what we had as a member of the EU with each of those countries. So one can argue that a lot of effort was expended to stand still.
Anything else has been new (or updated) such as with NZ or joining the Pacific one whose acronym I cannot remember right now.
For me it is less the economic impact (money and commerce will find a way ultimately) and more the societal impact. Also being one of the biggest partners in a huge power bloc seems more sensible then going it alone in the face of growing power in other states. |
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By *ip2Man 2 weeks ago
Near Maidenhead |
"IMO Cameron should have used the result of the “advisory” referendum to force more concessions out of the EU.
"
Cameron did get a number of concessions -- that depended on the referendum result being to stay in.
All 28 national leaders agreed that the deal "addressed the concerns of the United Kingdom".
The UK didn't use all the limits on freedom of movement "that were provided for" after the 10 new countries joined in 2004.
So it was agreed that the UK could have new limits now.
Another concession was, even more limits on access to benefits for citizens of other EU countries moving to the UK.
Access to benefits was limited already. You have to show you normally live in a country before you can claim benefits there.
That's called the EU Habitual Residence Test.
A third point was a political commitment that "ever-closer union shall not apply to the United Kingdom".
That's an example of how you can do so much more when you are on the inside.
As it was, the referendum result meant that all of the EU-UK deal agreed on the 18th to 19th of Feb 2016 at the European Council was SCRAPPED.
Cameron was then excluded from a top level EU meeting. That was the first time a British PM had been shut out of a top EU or EEC meeting in 43 years.
The EU-UK deal that would have come in after a referendum result to stay in was then cancelled by a vote of the European Parliament on the 28th of June 2016.
The UK's future is indeed ruined. No country has ever abandoned a respected status and put up barriers against its neighbours in this way before.
Young Brits working around the rest of Europe now see they're disadvantaged.
Free movement is still there for everyone else from Latvia to Greece to Portugal.
Only the Brits have ended it for themselves, so they're stuck on their island. It is still possible to go and study at university in Berlin, for example, but it's harder.
Upset EU citizens in the UK have had to go through a humiliating application process and are given no card. It's all online only with smartphones and emails.
Others have fled the UK, broken hearted, and horrified by the newspapers on the day of the referendum.
I know a German born woman married to a Brit in Liverpool with 2 kids. She has chosen to stay, despite the insults from May and Johnson.
Another German born woman was so shocked by the referendum that she decided the UK is not a place to bring up her child. She is now in Germany with her son, and it has not been easy.
Councils are hit because making it worse for businesses in both directions (UK to EU and EU to UK) cuts the tax take.
Was the referendum result supposed to "stick it to the man" ie business people rich enough to go to dinners with the PM?
If so then it has done that but far worse for the countless small businesses run by families.
I know a family who make hand made pottery.
Simply look up the Government instructions on how to export hand made pottery from GB to Belgium. The bureaucracy is unbelievable.
The EU takes away bureaucracy and helps small businesses. It even offers support for small businesses with apprenticeship schemes and cheap loans from the EU European Investment Bank.
I wasn't taught anything at all about the then EEC when I was at school. Perhaps one thing that has come from the referendum is to teach me things like what the EU does that I should have known about years ago. |
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"Did COVID limit and mask the Brexit effect though"
It's certain to have had an impact somehow, as did Liz Truss, two wars ... It's what happens. As Harold Macmillan said when asked what kept him awake at night "Events dear boy, events" |
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"The problem is causality. Brexit supporters see anything positive and say “that is because of brexit” and anything negative “that isn’t because of brexit”. Remainers do the same but the other way around. But the complexities of the world with exogenous events such as Covid, war in Ukraine, continued war in the middle east, and impact of Trussenomics, means ot is impossible to isolate the impact of brexit wither positive or negative. Which in many ways makes it all seem so futile anyway!
100% all of this. Sadly like many things in life the debate is so polarised, it’s either Brexit very bad or Brexit very good when the reality is somewhere in the middle and frankly we still don’t know as it’s too recent to make a valid determination.
Not sure I agree. So far we've got a lot of problems caused by Brexit. All of which are demonstrable. But as for the positives, all we have is a vague hope that the EU might collapse at some point in the distant future, and a bunch of unsubstantiated rhetoric.
Johnny I don’t think that is completely true. There have been new trade deals for example. The pendulum may swing back and forth, but the reality is that neither extreme was correct.
I think the only thing we can be sure of is that a small number of people made a lot of money out of the chaos/uncertainty/change = disaster capitalists.
Have the new trade deals been any better, or were they at best a replica of what we had in the EU? Have any of them made up for the trade deals we lost? Because if not, it's not really a positive.
Lots of the trade deals have been problematic because we've been under pressure as a smaller entity, and are being forced to make concessions that we wouldn't have as part of the EU.
The vast majority of the trade deals were rollover deals that maintained what we had as a member of the EU with each of those countries. So one can argue that a lot of effort was expended to stand still.
Anything else has been new (or updated) such as with NZ or joining the Pacific one whose acronym I cannot remember right now.
For me it is less the economic impact (money and commerce will find a way ultimately) and more the societal impact. Also being one of the biggest partners in a huge power bloc seems more sensible then going it alone in the face of growing power in other states."
Just doesn't seem to be any quantifiable evidence to suggest our trade deal situation has improved since we left the EU. |
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I cannot see any rational person being bothered about Brexit . The FTSE reached an all time high this week anyone running a businness continues as normal.
Dislike of Brexit seems to be the preserve of those with two much free time on their hands .
The referendum was a true exercise in democracy and gave everyone a chance to express their opinion. No one can argue with the result. |
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"I cannot see any rational person being bothered about Brexit . The FTSE reached an all time high this week anyone running a businness continues as normal.
Dislike of Brexit seems to be the preserve of those with two much free time on their hands .
The referendum was a true exercise in democracy and gave everyone a chance to express their opinion. No one can argue with the result. "
Top notch as ever. |
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By *irldn OP Couple 2 weeks ago
Brighton |
"The problem is causality. Brexit supporters see anything positive and say “that is because of brexit” and anything negative “that isn’t because of brexit”. Remainers do the same but the other way around. But the complexities of the world with exogenous events such as Covid, war in Ukraine, continued war in the middle east, and impact of Trussenomics, means ot is impossible to isolate the impact of brexit wither positive or negative. Which in many ways makes it all seem so futile anyway!
100% all of this. Sadly like many things in life the debate is so polarised, it’s either Brexit very bad or Brexit very good when the reality is somewhere in the middle and frankly we still don’t know as it’s too recent to make a valid determination.
Not sure I agree. So far we've got a lot of problems caused by Brexit. All of which are demonstrable. But as for the positives, all we have is a vague hope that the EU might collapse at some point in the distant future, and a bunch of unsubstantiated rhetoric.
Johnny I don’t think that is completely true. There have been new trade deals for example. The pendulum may swing back and forth, but the reality is that neither extreme was correct.
I think the only thing we can be sure of is that a small number of people made a lot of money out of the chaos/uncertainty/change = disaster capitalists.
Have the new trade deals been any better, or were they at best a replica of what we had in the EU? Have any of them made up for the trade deals we lost? Because if not, it's not really a positive.
Lots of the trade deals have been problematic because we've been under pressure as a smaller entity, and are being forced to make concessions that we wouldn't have as part of the EU.
The vast majority of the trade deals were rollover deals that maintained what we had as a member of the EU with each of those countries. So one can argue that a lot of effort was expended to stand still.
Anything else has been new (or updated) such as with NZ or joining the Pacific one whose acronym I cannot remember right now.
For me it is less the economic impact (money and commerce will find a way ultimately) and more the societal impact. Also being one of the biggest partners in a huge power bloc seems more sensible then going it alone in the face of growing power in other states.
Just doesn't seem to be any quantifiable evidence to suggest our trade deal situation has improved since we left the EU. "
Well supporters would point NZ for example. But that is why I said “ So one can argue that a lot of effort was expended to stand still.” |
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By *ip2Man 2 weeks ago
Near Maidenhead |
"I cannot see any rational person being bothered about Brexit ."
That is to take the peace in Europe for granted. What a shameful attitude.
That's not what Brits in Spain who have based their whole careers on using freedom of movement by working all across the Continent have said.
That's not how many families of citizens of other EU countries in the UK felt.
It's in the book, "In Limbo" compiled by Elena Remigi.
"What could you say to your daughter who cried on the morning of the referendum result asking if Mummy is going to be deported?"
The family that I know who make pottery by hand are very bothered.
They used to employ Polish staff.
A lot of their customers were in Continental Europe.
Now, many of their best customers have stopped buying because "there's too much bureaucracy".
Buyers in the Netherlands now have to register for UK VAT. That's one of the mad things that comes from the loss of the EU VAT area.
The business owner told me, it's taking longer to send a small Europallet of pottery to Italy than to Japan.
That's because of the loss of the customs union.
Before, there were no customs charges or customs bureaucracy to send to Italy. Now, there are.
"We're sending more to America and Japan which means our stuff when it gets there is more expensive", he told me.
He cannot mention the current government without swearing. "Why is it not on the news?" he asked.
Changing subject slightly from pottery to cafes.
Look at the incredible bureaucracy to do something as innocent as employ an 18 year old French person to work for the season in a cafe in Swanage.
You have to apply to the Government for a licence that costs over £500 and takes up to 8 weeks and might be refused! It's astonishing. |
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By *irldn OP Couple 2 weeks ago
Brighton |
"I cannot see any rational person being bothered about Brexit . The FTSE reached an all time high this week anyone running a businness continues as normal.
Dislike of Brexit seems to be the preserve of those with two much free time on their hands .
The referendum was a true exercise in democracy and gave everyone a chance to express their opinion. No one can argue with the result. "
Causation? Despite or because of?
Why did FTSE achieve that?
By the way “too much free time” and are you saying Carney needs a job? |
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"The problem is causality. Brexit supporters see anything positive and say “that is because of brexit” and anything negative “that isn’t because of brexit”. Remainers do the same but the other way around. But the complexities of the world with exogenous events such as Covid, war in Ukraine, continued war in the middle east, and impact of Trussenomics, means ot is impossible to isolate the impact of brexit wither positive or negative. Which in many ways makes it all seem so futile anyway!"
Spot on |
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"The problem is causality. Brexit supporters see anything positive and say “that is because of brexit” and anything negative “that isn’t because of brexit”. Remainers do the same but the other way around. But the complexities of the world with exogenous events such as Covid, war in Ukraine, continued war in the middle east, and impact of Trussenomics, means ot is impossible to isolate the impact of brexit wither positive or negative. Which in many ways makes it all seem so futile anyway!
100% all of this. Sadly like many things in life the debate is so polarised, it’s either Brexit very bad or Brexit very good when the reality is somewhere in the middle and frankly we still don’t know as it’s too recent to make a valid determination.
Not sure I agree. So far we've got a lot of problems caused by Brexit. All of which are demonstrable. But as for the positives, all we have is a vague hope that the EU might collapse at some point in the distant future, and a bunch of unsubstantiated rhetoric.
Johnny I don’t think that is completely true. There have been new trade deals for example. The pendulum may swing back and forth, but the reality is that neither extreme was correct.
I think the only thing we can be sure of is that a small number of people made a lot of money out of the chaos/uncertainty/change = disaster capitalists.
Have the new trade deals been any better, or were they at best a replica of what we had in the EU? Have any of them made up for the trade deals we lost? Because if not, it's not really a positive.
Lots of the trade deals have been problematic because we've been under pressure as a smaller entity, and are being forced to make concessions that we wouldn't have as part of the EU.
"
As you rightly say the UK has had to do all its trade deals from a single country position as opposed to a multi country position. From this position they have managed to replicate virtually all the trade deals the EU negotiated previously, which in my opinion is an achievement in itself given that as you say it is the UK negotiating alone. Obviously a trade deal with the EU itself and the new trade deals are over and above what the UK had while in the EU. The big one in the form of the USA is still elusive though if what some people on here say is true about demands then maybe it's best it stays elusive. |
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"The problem is causality. Brexit supporters see anything positive and say “that is because of brexit” and anything negative “that isn’t because of brexit”. Remainers do the same but the other way around. But the complexities of the world with exogenous events such as Covid, war in Ukraine, continued war in the middle east, and impact of Trussenomics, means ot is impossible to isolate the impact of brexit wither positive or negative. Which in many ways makes it all seem so futile anyway!
100% all of this. Sadly like many things in life the debate is so polarised, it’s either Brexit very bad or Brexit very good when the reality is somewhere in the middle and frankly we still don’t know as it’s too recent to make a valid determination.
Not sure I agree. So far we've got a lot of problems caused by Brexit. All of which are demonstrable. But as for the positives, all we have is a vague hope that the EU might collapse at some point in the distant future, and a bunch of unsubstantiated rhetoric.
Johnny I don’t think that is completely true. There have been new trade deals for example. The pendulum may swing back and forth, but the reality is that neither extreme was correct.
I think the only thing we can be sure of is that a small number of people made a lot of money out of the chaos/uncertainty/change = disaster capitalists.
Have the new trade deals been any better, or were they at best a replica of what we had in the EU? Have any of them made up for the trade deals we lost? Because if not, it's not really a positive.
Lots of the trade deals have been problematic because we've been under pressure as a smaller entity, and are being forced to make concessions that we wouldn't have as part of the EU.
The vast majority of the trade deals were rollover deals that maintained what we had as a member of the EU with each of those countries. So one can argue that a lot of effort was expended to stand still.
Anything else has been new (or updated) such as with NZ or joining the Pacific one whose acronym I cannot remember right now.
For me it is less the economic impact (money and commerce will find a way ultimately) and more the societal impact. Also being one of the biggest partners in a huge power bloc seems more sensible then going it alone in the face of growing power in other states.
Just doesn't seem to be any quantifiable evidence to suggest our trade deal situation has improved since we left the EU.
Well supporters would point NZ for example. But that is why I said “ So one can argue that a lot of effort was expended to stand still.”"
Yeah I agree with that. I read comparisons of the UK-NZ and EU-NZ trade deals. Doesn't seem to be much different. |
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"I cannot see any rational person being bothered about Brexit . The FTSE reached an all time high this week anyone running a businness continues as normal.
Dislike of Brexit seems to be the preserve of those with two much free time on their hands .
The referendum was a true exercise in democracy and gave everyone a chance to express their opinion. No one can argue with the result.
Causation? Despite or because of?
Why did FTSE achieve that?
By the way “too much free time” and are you saying Carney needs a job?"
This is a good example of the difference between problems caused by Brexit. Backed up with information, examples and a direct cause and effect Vs the "benefits" of Brexit, vague sound bites, no actual information. |
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By *deepdiveMan 2 weeks ago
France / Birmingham |
"I cannot see any rational person being bothered about Brexit . The FTSE reached an all time high this week anyone running a businness continues as normal.
"
The FTSE has underperformed.
It is at an all time high but, in reality, it is not that much higher than it was a year ago.
Other stock exchanges have romped ahead and the FTSE is only where it is due to the influence of American companies.
This is not a good measure on which to base assumptions of how successful the UK is doing post Brexit. |
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"The business owner told me, it's taking longer to send a small Europallet of pottery to Italy than to Japan."
Why is that?
Is it because our Brexit negotiators are fantastic and got us a really great deal with Japan? Or is it because the EU is deliberately obstructing trade to punish us? |
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By *deepdiveMan 2 weeks ago
France / Birmingham |
"The business owner told me, it's taking longer to send a small Europallet of pottery to Italy than to Japan.
Why is that?
Is it because our Brexit negotiators are fantastic and got us a really great deal with Japan? Or is it because the EU is deliberately obstructing trade to punish us?"
Oh dear!
EU punishing us - well if it wasn't the fault of the people who voted for Brexit then why not blame the EU?
Isn't this not the usual stock response?
|
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"The business owner told me, it's taking longer to send a small Europallet of pottery to Italy than to Japan."
"Why is that?
Is it because our Brexit negotiators are fantastic and got us a really great deal with Japan? Or is it because the EU is deliberately obstructing trade to punish us?"
"Oh dear!
EU punishing us - well if it wasn't the fault of the people who voted for Brexit then why not blame the EU?
Isn't this not the usual stock response?"
So what's your explanation? Why is it easier to ship goods to Japan than the EU? |
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"The business owner told me, it's taking longer to send a small Europallet of pottery to Italy than to Japan.
Why is that?
Is it because our Brexit negotiators are fantastic and got us a really great deal with Japan? Or is it because the EU is deliberately obstructing trade to punish us?
Oh dear!
EU punishing us - well if it wasn't the fault of the people who voted for Brexit then why not blame the EU?
Isn't this not the usual stock response?
So what's your explanation? Why is it easier to ship goods to Japan than the EU?"
I've had this discussion with others (possibly that fella). I hear of shipping delays with the EU yet we can ship around the world in days.
Why can we ship around the world in days but the EU takes weeks? |
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By *ermbiMan 2 weeks ago
Ballyshannon |
"The business owner told me, it's taking longer to send a small Europallet of pottery to Italy than to Japan.
Why is that?
Is it because our Brexit negotiators are fantastic and got us a really great deal with Japan? Or is it because the EU is deliberately obstructing trade to punish us?"
The really great deal with Japan, one of the major economies of the world was worth nothing more than what it takes to run the Commonwealth office. If that's the brilliant deals which are coming then it is a break Brexit future ahead. Brits don't do referendums for a reason. |
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"Truth is, it’s all opinion. - No it isnt. What are you on about?
No one has a crystal ball or a Time Machine.
This is a true fact about fun fantasy concepts. We should talk about other things like no-one having invisible cloaks or Xray Spectacles.
No one knows what could have happened if remain won the vote. Would we be some how better off? Would we be worse off? - Forget about business/trade etc (i mean, don’t) Brexit has made us look like a right bunch of tinpot little Englander’s on the international stage after a certain demographic of gullible moron’s hopped up on F*ke N*ws, whipped up into a frenzy by a series of increasingly ridiculous demagogues who wouldn’t out of certain demographic of
All I know is I would still be broke living in a 3 bed mid terrace ex council house, working full time. I’m pretty sure my life hasn’t changed.
I think it’s time people moved on from this and found something else to whine about."
Why are so many people on this thread saying get over it, NO, you get over your very wrong decision and I’ll exercise my right to remind Br*xiteers how sh1t there decision was every time there is demonstrable evidence of the fact
 |
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"Truth is, it’s all opinion. - No it isnt. What are you on about?
No one has a crystal ball or a Time Machine.
This is a true fact about fun fantasy concepts. We should talk about other things like no-one having invisible cloaks or Xray Spectacles.
No one knows what could have happened if remain won the vote. Would we be some how better off? Would we be worse off? - Forget about business/trade etc (i mean, don’t) Brexit has made us look like a right bunch of tinpot little Englander’s on the international stage after a certain demographic of gullible moron’s hopped up on F*ke N*ws, whipped up into a frenzy by a series of increasingly ridiculous demagogues who wouldn’t out of certain demographic of
All I know is I would still be broke living in a 3 bed mid terrace ex council house, working full time. I’m pretty sure my life hasn’t changed.
I think it’s time people moved on from this and found something else to whine about.
Why are so many people on this thread saying get over it, NO, you get over your very wrong decision and I’ll exercise my right to remind Br*xiteers how sh1t there decision was every time there is demonstrable evidence of the fact
"
i imagine there saying get over it because why bother getting wound up about something that has happend and isnt likley to change for the next 10 or 15 years at least,in the mean time why not enjoy life and stop wasting time on something you have no control over, just my opinion |
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"The business owner told me, it's taking longer to send a small Europallet of pottery to Italy than to Japan.
Why is that?
Is it because our Brexit negotiators are fantastic and got us a really great deal with Japan? Or is it because the EU is deliberately obstructing trade to punish us?"
Lol. You're usually better than this. |
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"The business owner told me, it's taking longer to send a small Europallet of pottery to Italy than to Japan.
Why is that?
Is it because our Brexit negotiators are fantastic and got us a really great deal with Japan? Or is it because the EU is deliberately obstructing trade to punish us?
Lol. You're usually better than this."
I composed a lengthy response to this citing it as textbook example of insidious, weaponised, boomer b*llshit but thought better of it in the name of peaceful relations |
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By *ip2Man 1 week ago
Near Maidenhead |
"Why is it easier to ship goods to Japan than the EU?"
I don't know for sure but perhaps it is to do with disruption to local flows including mixed loads on lorries.
Because Japan is further away, it was not so much a destination for fresh or chilled foods and no lorries went from the UK to Japan.
Before, a pallet of pottery from England could go easily on a lorry belonging to an operator based in another EU country mixed in with a variety of other goods.
For example, a lorry could go from Ireland to Wales, England, France and Italy picking up and dropping off a variety on the way with the same EU status of all the things on the way.
The lorry could drop off goods in France and pick up in Italy on its way to another point in Italy.
For a Dutch operator to deliver point to point in Italy (for example) is called Cabotage.
Now, that is more difficult, because a lorry that stops in Slough loses its EU status.
It only takes one package on the lorry to have something wrong with its customs forms for the whole delivery to be delayed.
The single market is like the bloodstream of a body.
Goods inside the SM are automatically legal in all the member countries because they're covered by the EU legal framework that sets the minimum product standards, settles disputes and covers the movement of people, services and money as well.
GB in particular has not only cut itself off from the EU SM but from the EU customs union too.
Previously, things going through Dover didn't have to worry about customs paperwork and now they do, but Dover hasn't got much bigger. |
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"Why is it easier to ship goods to Japan than the EU?
I don't know for sure but perhaps it is to do with disruption to local flows including mixed loads on lorries.
Because Japan is further away, it was not so much a destination for fresh or chilled foods and no lorries went from the UK to Japan.
Before, a pallet of pottery from England could go easily on a lorry belonging to an operator based in another EU country mixed in with a variety of other goods.
For example, a lorry could go from Ireland to Wales, England, France and Italy picking up and dropping off a variety on the way with the same EU status of all the things on the way.
The lorry could drop off goods in France and pick up in Italy on its way to another point in Italy.
For a Dutch operator to deliver point to point in Italy (for example) is called Cabotage.
Now, that is more difficult, because a lorry that stops in Slough loses its EU status.
It only takes one package on the lorry to have something wrong with its customs forms for the whole delivery to be delayed.
The single market is like the bloodstream of a body.
Goods inside the SM are automatically legal in all the member countries because they're covered by the EU legal framework that sets the minimum product standards, settles disputes and covers the movement of people, services and money as well.
GB in particular has not only cut itself off from the EU SM but from the EU customs union too.
Previously, things going through Dover didn't have to worry about customs paperwork and now they do, but Dover hasn't got much bigger."
*’this is fine’ dog in house fire gif with dog replaced by generic brexiteer reply guy* |
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"The business owner told me, it's taking longer to send a small Europallet of pottery to Italy than to Japan."
"Why is that?
Is it because our Brexit negotiators are fantastic and got us a really great deal with Japan? Or is it because the EU is deliberately obstructing trade to punish us?"
"Lol. You're usually better than this."
"I composed a lengthy response to this citing it as textbook example of insidious, weaponised, boomer b*llshit but thought better of it in the name of peaceful relations"
Good job you didn't post that, considering that I'm not a boomer.
But I'm grateful that you just went for a short insult 'in the name of peaceful relations'. |
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By *ip2Man 1 week ago
Near Maidenhead |
Rules of origin.
I've heard that rules of origin is another thing that is now a problem when it wasn't before.
GB has got zero quotas and zero tariffs on goods to the EU, but only if it meets rules of origin.
I don't know all the details.
Traceability is another thing. To trace foods that could make people ill, it's important to know where the deliveries have gone in case of a problem.
The European Commission runs a system to do that, I think.
It's called the European Rapid Alert System on Food and Feed and it's part of the working of the single market.
The European market was the UK's domestic market.
What has happened is to turn a domestic market into a foreign market and that's why there's so much disruption. |
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"The business owner told me, it's taking longer to send a small Europallet of pottery to Italy than to Japan.
Why is that?
Is it because our Brexit negotiators are fantastic and got us a really great deal with Japan? Or is it because the EU is deliberately obstructing trade to punish us?
Oh dear!
EU punishing us - well if it wasn't the fault of the people who voted for Brexit then why not blame the EU?
Isn't this not the usual stock response?
So what's your explanation? Why is it easier to ship goods to Japan than the EU?
I've had this discussion with others (possibly that fella). I hear of shipping delays with the EU yet we can ship around the world in days.
Why can we ship around the world in days but the EU takes weeks?"
I work in logistics several years and the company I work for ships all around the world both before and after brexit. It's true we can send goods Monday morning to Japan and they will be with the customers in their premises by Wednesday. Europe always was longer but because it's usually done by road as opposed to air. The delivery times to the EU are the same now as they were pre brexit. There was an increase in times immediately after brexit which I am told was due to paperwork and system problems etc but is back to normal now. |
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"Why is it easier to ship goods to Japan than the EU?
I don't know for sure but perhaps it is to do with disruption to local flows including mixed loads on lorries.
Because Japan is further away, it was not so much a destination for fresh or chilled foods and no lorries went from the UK to Japan.
Before, a pallet of pottery from England could go easily on a lorry belonging to an operator based in another EU country mixed in with a variety of other goods.
For example, a lorry could go from Ireland to Wales, England, France and Italy picking up and dropping off a variety on the way with the same EU status of all the things on the way.
The lorry could drop off goods in France and pick up in Italy on its way to another point in Italy.
For a Dutch operator to deliver point to point in Italy (for example) is called Cabotage.
Now, that is more difficult, because a lorry that stops in Slough loses its EU status.
It only takes one package on the lorry to have something wrong with its customs forms for the whole delivery to be delayed.
The single market is like the bloodstream of a body.
Goods inside the SM are automatically legal in all the member countries because they're covered by the EU legal framework that sets the minimum product standards, settles disputes and covers the movement of people, services and money as well.
GB in particular has not only cut itself off from the EU SM but from the EU customs union too.
Previously, things going through Dover didn't have to worry about customs paperwork and now they do, but Dover hasn't got much bigger."
. It likes like the company to which you are referring needs to change their hauliers or customs agent .
Other companies have adapted without any issues and British Hauliers have benefitted as EU hauliers are less likely to come here and commit cabotage .
With correctly completed paperwork journey times are no different to when we were in the EU. |
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"Why is it easier to ship goods to Japan than the EU?
I don't know for sure but perhaps it is to do with disruption to local flows including mixed loads on lorries.
Because Japan is further away, it was not so much a destination for fresh or chilled foods and no lorries went from the UK to Japan.
Before, a pallet of pottery from England could go easily on a lorry belonging to an operator based in another EU country mixed in with a variety of other goods.
For example, a lorry could go from Ireland to Wales, England, France and Italy picking up and dropping off a variety on the way with the same EU status of all the things on the way.
The lorry could drop off goods in France and pick up in Italy on its way to another point in Italy.
For a Dutch operator to deliver point to point in Italy (for example) is called Cabotage.
Now, that is more difficult, because a lorry that stops in Slough loses its EU status.
It only takes one package on the lorry to have something wrong with its customs forms for the whole delivery to be delayed.
The single market is like the bloodstream of a body.
Goods inside the SM are automatically legal in all the member countries because they're covered by the EU legal framework that sets the minimum product standards, settles disputes and covers the movement of people, services and money as well.
GB in particular has not only cut itself off from the EU SM but from the EU customs union too.
Previously, things going through Dover didn't have to worry about customs paperwork and now they do, but Dover hasn't got much bigger.. It likes like the company to which you are referring needs to change their hauliers or customs agent .
Other companies have adapted without any issues and British Hauliers have benefitted as EU hauliers are less likely to come here and commit cabotage .
With correctly completed paperwork journey times are no different to when we were in the EU. "
See reality still hasn't hit Pat. |
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"The business owner told me, it's taking longer to send a small Europallet of pottery to Italy than to Japan.
Why is that?
Is it because our Brexit negotiators are fantastic and got us a really great deal with Japan? Or is it because the EU is deliberately obstructing trade to punish us?
Lol. You're usually better than this.
I composed a lengthy response to this citing it as textbook example of insidious, weaponised, boomer b*llshit but thought better of it in the name of peaceful relations
Good job you didn't post that, considering that I'm not a boomer.
But I'm grateful that you just went for a short insult 'in the name of peaceful relations'."
*redacts everything about ducks and their lookalikes/walksalikes in the interest of peaceful relations*
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