FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > 39 People Found Dead .... Part 2!!
39 People Found Dead .... Part 2!!
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Ok I've read the last thread I started, some dubious posts .
Can we just please acknowledge this was a human tragedy regardless of laws or nationality.
I do feel more people had opinions but thread got too big , so carry on , and dont be assholes please !! |
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By *estivalMan
over a year ago
borehamwood |
am i missing something if they were already in an e.u country when they climbed aboard wernt they already in a safe country to claim asylum in? after all we always being told how great and liberal being in the e.u is.my guess is there economic migrants.dont get me wrong is still disgusting what happend to them.just some on here claiming they were fleeing for there lives from somewhere if thats the case why not claim asylum in belgium were they climbed aboard. |
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We know little at the this - unless I've missed any breaking info this morning!
As yet we don't know if they were exploited or not
For all we know they could be innocent people forced into the container at gunpoint, they could be uk citizens murdered here, they could be terrorists headed here to cause carnage, they could be opportunists wanting to exploit our benefit system, they could be fleeing a dreadful situation......
They COULD be any of these things - as we don't yet know,it just seems sensible to find out which they are before making to many comments one way or the other |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It is unfortunate that to those on an income of a few thousand a year UK wages sound great, except of course they dont get told of the cost of living over here, and that is if they ever escape the slavery of the people traffickers who bring many over on false promises.
The really sad thing is those 39 will probably have no identification and no way of telling their families they didn't make it.
So today somewhere desperate people are climbing into a dark truck heading for nirvana.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"why not claim asylum in belgium were they climbed aboard."
Through music and films a lit of the world knows some English, not even all Belgians know Flemish. |
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By *aysolCouple
over a year ago
Swansea |
"We know little at the this - unless I've missed any breaking info this morning!
As yet we don't know if they were exploited or not
For all we know they could be innocent people forced into the container at gunpoint, they could be uk citizens murdered here, they could be terrorists headed here to cause carnage, they could be opportunists wanting to exploit our benefit system, they could be fleeing a dreadful situation......
They COULD be any of these things - as we don't yet know,it just seems sensible to find out which they are before making to many comments one way or the other "
Yes exactly! Will people just shut up with their stupid opinions and have some respect for those who have died? Already I've heard people say how they deserved it. People are so sick. Can we stop dehuminising people who were killed and we still don't even know how or why? Stop jumping to conclusions when we don't even know the facts! |
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"We know little at the this - unless I've missed any breaking info this morning!
As yet we don't know if they were exploited or not
For all we know they could be innocent people forced into the container at gunpoint, they could be uk citizens murdered here, they could be terrorists headed here to cause carnage, they could be opportunists wanting to exploit our benefit system, they could be fleeing a dreadful situation......
They COULD be any of these things - as we don't yet know,it just seems sensible to find out which they are before making to many comments one way or the other
Yes exactly! Will people just shut up with their stupid opinions and have some respect for those who have died? Already I've heard people say how they deserved it. People are so sick. Can we stop dehuminising people who were killed and we still don't even know how or why? Stop jumping to conclusions when we don't even know the facts!"
It's a forum people can express their opinions as long as they do it respectfully without being told to shut up |
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By *aysolCouple
over a year ago
Swansea |
"We know little at the this - unless I've missed any breaking info this morning!
As yet we don't know if they were exploited or not
For all we know they could be innocent people forced into the container at gunpoint, they could be uk citizens murdered here, they could be terrorists headed here to cause carnage, they could be opportunists wanting to exploit our benefit system, they could be fleeing a dreadful situation......
They COULD be any of these things - as we don't yet know,it just seems sensible to find out which they are before making to many comments one way or the other
Yes exactly! Will people just shut up with their stupid opinions and have some respect for those who have died? Already I've heard people say how they deserved it. People are so sick. Can we stop dehuminising people who were killed and we still don't even know how or why? Stop jumping to conclusions when we don't even know the facts!
It's a forum people can express their opinions as long as they do it respectfully without being told to shut up"
I know but they are talking about something that we don't know yet and I think it's pretty disrespectful. |
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"It's an awful thing, the driver is also only 25. It would be interesting to know the whole story."
I'm hoping we will . We need to know exactly at what point they were smuggled on the trailer , and by whom??
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By *uxinteriorMan
over a year ago
south west , continental |
Very upsetting, however its at times like these that the sad, greedy, power crazy underbelly of a shady underworld always rears its ugly head. We will never know the intent as who ever is behind it will fade into the shadows again. The human cargo will have little or no identification.
What to do? They are all pawns, we are all pawns in a sick game. Who wins, no one. It will not be the last horrific findings in such circumstances. Is free movement, open borders, lapse migration policy such a good idea? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Yes it's a tragedy born out of greed by criminal gangs exploiting people. It is also disgusting that the media have named and shown photos of the driver. Nobody knows the circumstances of how the deceased came to be in the trailer. We don't know if he knew they were in there or not, he may have been duped by others in the evil lucrative people smuggling trade. The death toll may yet rise to 40,if you get my drift.
And as a previous poster says this is a forum, if a topic is raised we are entitled to give our opinion within forum rules.
Hev |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Is free movement, open borders, lapse migration policy such a good idea? "
You mean if we had it then this wouldn't happen? It probably still would, the people smuggled seldom know any more than the smugglers tell them. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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This is an unprecedented tragedy and I feel so awful for those who died and there families. But this man the lorry driver has been named and shamed by the media . For all we know he could be an innocent party in all of this . He may not have known what was exactly inside the cargo when he went to pick it up but yet his name and face will always be remembered for this. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"We know little at the this - unless I've missed any breaking info this morning!
As yet we don't know if they were exploited or not
For all we know they could be innocent people forced into the container at gunpoint, they could be uk citizens murdered here, they could be terrorists headed here to cause carnage, they could be opportunists wanting to exploit our benefit system, they could be fleeing a dreadful situation......
They COULD be any of these things - as we don't yet know,it just seems sensible to find out which they are before making to many comments one way or the other
Yes exactly! Will people just shut up with their stupid opinions and have some respect for those who have died? Already I've heard people say how they deserved it. People are so sick. Can we stop dehuminising people who were killed and we still don't even know how or why? Stop jumping to conclusions when we don't even know the facts!
It's a forum people can express their opinions as long as they do it respectfully without being told to shut up
I know but they are talking about something that we don't know yet and I think it's pretty disrespectful. "
This  |
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"This is an unprecedented tragedy and I feel so awful for those who died and there families. But this man the lorry driver has been named and shamed by the media . For all we know he could be an innocent party in all of this . He may not have known what was exactly inside the cargo when he went to pick it up but yet his name and face will always be remembered for this. "
It's not unprecedented. 58 Chinese people died under similar circumstances |
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"This is an unprecedented tragedy and I feel so awful for those who died and there families. But this man the lorry driver has been named and shamed by the media . For all we know he could be an innocent party in all of this . He may not have known what was exactly inside the cargo when he went to pick it up but yet his name and face will always be remembered for this.
It's not unprecedented. 58 Chinese people died under similar circumstances"
About 10 years ago yes , same route taken then too , just awful |
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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago
Derry |
"This is an unprecedented tragedy and I feel so awful for those who died and there families. But this man the lorry driver has been named and shamed by the media . For all we know he could be an innocent party in all of this . He may not have known what was exactly inside the cargo when he went to pick it up but yet his name and face will always be remembered for this. "
They got all his info from social media, his and his friends. Don't use facebook.
Its also telling that if you're arrested on suspicion of murder, you're part of an Irish criminal gang, but if you win at Wimbledon you're British. I always thought that dog whistles were silent. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"This is an unprecedented tragedy and I feel so awful for those who died and there families. But this man the lorry driver has been named and shamed by the media . For all we know he could be an innocent party in all of this . He may not have known what was exactly inside the cargo when he went to pick it up but yet his name and face will always be remembered for this.
It's not unprecedented. 58 Chinese people died under similar circumstances"
Fair enough point there as you are right. It is just a horrific. Thing to happen |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The 39 were all Chinese nationals , that's a shock development, but that's the latest  "
That's not a shock development at all. That's entirely expected. |
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"am i missing something if they were already in an e.u country when they climbed aboard wernt they already in a safe country to claim asylum in? after all we always being told how great and liberal being in the e.u is.my guess is there economic migrants.dont get me wrong is still disgusting what happend to them.just some on here claiming they were fleeing for there lives from somewhere if thats the case why not claim asylum in belgium were they climbed aboard."
I don’t get this argument. If the U.K. did happen to be the nearest “safe” country, would you be quite happy for the UK to absorb every single refugee? I’m guessing tang would be a resounding no?
Would you be surprised to know that the UK only has something like 2% of the world’s refugees? People flee to all sorts of countries for all sorts of reasons. |
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"Is free movement, open borders, lapse migration policy such a good idea?
You mean if we had it then this wouldn't happen? It probably still would, the people smuggled seldom know any more than the smugglers tell them."
It has nothing to do with free movement or lapse migration policy. If it did they wouldn’t have been trying to get into the country by hiding in a freezer container. They would have been taking advantage of the free movement and lapse immigration policy and walked straight through customs.
What exactly do people think this lapse immigration policy for non EU nationals actually involved? |
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"2% is a staggering number.
That sounds really high to me. What's the number of refugees ?"
I remember that figure from a few years ago. A quick look on Wiki quoting UN figures, says around 20m in 2015. Of which around 4m were in Europe. Of which around 400k were in the U.K. Whatever else it suggests that the notion that ‘they all come here’ is not true. |
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"This is an unprecedented tragedy and I feel so awful for those who died and there families. But this man the lorry driver has been named and shamed by the media . For all we know he could be an innocent party in all of this . He may not have known what was exactly inside the cargo when he went to pick it up but yet his name and face will always be remembered for this.
It's not unprecedented. 58 Chinese people died under similar circumstances About 10 years ago yes , same route taken then too , just awful "
And it appears they were all Chinese in this latest tragedy. |
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By *amissCouple
over a year ago
chelmsford |
Please forgive my naivety, so the lorry driver has been arrested. Is it not their responsibility to know what or who, in this case, they are carrying? If the lorry is sealed, then how, at this point, has he been arrested on suspicion of murder? |
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As I understand it the Government placed a duty on lorry drivers to check that their loads were secure and if thy were found to carry stowaways then they would be heavily fined. This was an attempt to deter drivers knowingly taking migrants.
It's not foolproof as stowaways can cling underneath, slash lorry curtains or make it look like seals are intact.
The Border Force use heat seeking equipment to detect stoaways but not every lorry can be checked. It might be that using a refrigerated lorry beats the heat detection system but stowaways run s risk of exposure to the cold.
The driver was probably arrested on suspicion of murder I guess. Even if he knew his human cargo this will more likely end in a manslaughter charge. He is innocent until proven guilty. He may not be charged at all.
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By *aysolCouple
over a year ago
Swansea |
"Please forgive my naivety, so the lorry driver has been arrested. Is it not their responsibility to know what or who, in this case, they are carrying? If the lorry is sealed, then how, at this point, has he been arrested on suspicion of murder?"
Because they suspect he may have been involved or have known what he was carrying. He hasn't been charged, he is just being questioned, as you would expect if you were carrying 39 bodies in thw back of your lorry... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"am i missing something if they were already in an e.u country when they climbed aboard wernt they already in a safe country to claim asylum in? after all we always being told how great and liberal being in the e.u is.my guess is there economic migrants.dont get me wrong is still disgusting what happend to them.just some on here claiming they were fleeing for there lives from somewhere if thats the case why not claim asylum in belgium were they climbed aboard.
I don’t get this argument. If the U.K. did happen to be the nearest “safe” country, would you be quite happy for the UK to absorb every single refugee? I’m guessing tang would be a resounding no?
Would you be surprised to know that the UK only has something like 2% of the world’s refugees? People flee to all sorts of countries for all sorts of reasons. "
Well if you want to talk numbers, the UK has only .88% of the World's population, so yes 2% of the refugees does sound high.Of course the counter argument will be that the UK is a relatively rich nation, so can afford it. The struggling NHS and welfare service, and indigenous below poverty line population might disagree, but there you go.. |
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Chinese.......but I thought they were forced into this due to living in a war torn country, with stowing away the only option open to them being to try and enter the UK illegally!
I'm Not being serious.......
But this is exactly why I suggested not jumping to conclusions until we know!
Several people talked about how these people had no choice, assuming they are fleeing a war! It seems that they were incorrect. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Chinese.......but I thought they were forced into this due to living in a war torn country, with stowing away the only option open to them being to try and enter the UK illegally!
I'm Not being serious.......
But this is exactly why I suggested not jumping to conclusions until we know!
Several people talked about how these people had no choice, assuming they are fleeing a war! It seems that they were incorrect. "
China's human rights record is not great.. |
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"Chinese.......but I thought they were forced into this due to living in a war torn country, with stowing away the only option open to them being to try and enter the UK illegally!
I'm Not being serious.......
But this is exactly why I suggested not jumping to conclusions until we know!
Several people talked about how these people had no choice, assuming they are fleeing a war! It seems that they were incorrect.
China's human rights record is not great.."
I agree, but I wasn't the person claiming the deceased were fleeing a war zone with no other choice. There's a lot of countries between here and China that are safe and accept refugees. Why do you think they chose the UK instead?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Chinese.......but I thought they were forced into this due to living in a war torn country, with stowing away the only option open to them being to try and enter the UK illegally!
I'm Not being serious.......
But this is exactly why I suggested not jumping to conclusions until we know!
Several people talked about how these people had no choice, assuming they are fleeing a war! It seems that they were incorrect.
China's human rights record is not great..
I agree, but I wasn't the person claiming the deceased were fleeing a war zone with no other choice. There's a lot of countries between here and China that are safe and accept refugees. Why do you think they chose the UK instead?
"
Fish and chips? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Chinese.......but I thought they were forced into this due to living in a war torn country, with stowing away the only option open to them being to try and enter the UK illegally!
I'm Not being serious.......
But this is exactly why I suggested not jumping to conclusions until we know!
Several people talked about how these people had no choice, assuming they are fleeing a war! It seems that they were incorrect.
China's human rights record is not great..
I agree, but I wasn't the person claiming the deceased were fleeing a war zone with no other choice. There's a lot of countries between here and China that are safe and accept refugees. Why do you think they chose the UK instead?
"
Chinese are very family oriented and tend to help each other. The UK has a thriving legal and illegal Chinese population who mostly go about their business without managing to offend anyone else. I would not be surprised if many of these unfortunates have links here. |
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"Chinese.......but I thought they were forced into this due to living in a war torn country, with stowing away the only option open to them being to try and enter the UK illegally!
I'm Not being serious.......
But this is exactly why I suggested not jumping to conclusions until we know!
Several people talked about how these people had no choice, assuming they are fleeing a war! It seems that they were incorrect.
China's human rights record is not great..
I agree, but I wasn't the person claiming the deceased were fleeing a war zone with no other choice. There's a lot of countries between here and China that are safe and accept refugees. Why do you think they chose the UK instead?
Fish and chips? "
Buying or Selling... ? |
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"Chinese.......but I thought they were forced into this due to living in a war torn country, with stowing away the only option open to them being to try and enter the UK illegally!
I'm Not being serious.......
But this is exactly why I suggested not jumping to conclusions until we know!
Several people talked about how these people had no choice, assuming they are fleeing a war! It seems that they were incorrect.
China's human rights record is not great..
I agree, but I wasn't the person claiming the deceased were fleeing a war zone with no other choice. There's a lot of countries between here and China that are safe and accept refugees. Why do you think they chose the UK instead?
Chinese are very family oriented and tend to help each other. The UK has a thriving legal and illegal Chinese population who mostly go about their business without managing to offend anyone else. I would not be surprised if many of these unfortunates have links here."
You could easily be right.....
But it still doesn't mean they had no option but to head to the UK. They would have had alternate safe places wouldn't you agree?
They fact they WANT to join with family illegally,doesn't mean they have no other choice - i take it that makes sense to you? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Chinese.......but I thought they were forced into this due to living in a war torn country, with stowing away the only option open to them being to try and enter the UK illegally!
I'm Not being serious.......
But this is exactly why I suggested not jumping to conclusions until we know!
Several people talked about how these people had no choice, assuming they are fleeing a war! It seems that they were incorrect.
China's human rights record is not great..
I agree, but I wasn't the person claiming the deceased were fleeing a war zone with no other choice. There's a lot of countries between here and China that are safe and accept refugees. Why do you think they chose the UK instead?
Fish and chips? "
 |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Chinese.......but I thought they were forced into this due to living in a war torn country, with stowing away the only option open to them being to try and enter the UK illegally!
I'm Not being serious.......
But this is exactly why I suggested not jumping to conclusions until we know!
Several people talked about how these people had no choice, assuming they are fleeing a war! It seems that they were incorrect.
China's human rights record is not great..
I agree, but I wasn't the person claiming the deceased were fleeing a war zone with no other choice. There's a lot of countries between here and China that are safe and accept refugees. Why do you think they chose the UK instead?
Chinese are very family oriented and tend to help each other. The UK has a thriving legal and illegal Chinese population who mostly go about their business without managing to offend anyone else. I would not be surprised if many of these unfortunates have links here.
You could easily be right.....
But it still doesn't mean they had no option but to head to the UK. They would have had alternate safe places wouldn't you agree?
They fact they WANT to join with family illegally,doesn't mean they have no other choice - i take it that makes sense to you?"
Absolutely, but given the option of having to start from scratch, possibly alone, in a country/community that might not welcome you, as against joining friends/family that are already established, which would you choose? |
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"Chinese.......but I thought they were forced into this due to living in a war torn country, with stowing away the only option open to them being to try and enter the UK illegally!
I'm Not being serious.......
But this is exactly why I suggested not jumping to conclusions until we know!
Several people talked about how these people had no choice, assuming they are fleeing a war! It seems that they were incorrect.
China's human rights record is not great..
I agree, but I wasn't the person claiming the deceased were fleeing a war zone with no other choice. There's a lot of countries between here and China that are safe and accept refugees. Why do you think they chose the UK instead?
Chinese are very family oriented and tend to help each other. The UK has a thriving legal and illegal Chinese population who mostly go about their business without managing to offend anyone else. I would not be surprised if many of these unfortunates have links here.
You could easily be right.....
But it still doesn't mean they had no option but to head to the UK. They would have had alternate safe places wouldn't you agree?
They fact they WANT to join with family illegally,doesn't mean they have no other choice - i take it that makes sense to you?
Absolutely, but given the option of having to start from scratch, possibly alone, in a country/community that might not welcome you, as against joining friends/family that are already established, which would you choose? "
I'm glad you agree they had alternative choices which were safer than uk.
It's not a case which "would" i choose, I made that choice and came to live the the UK, but I did it "legally" as it should be done - sure we could have done it illegally, it would have meant less delays, but a greater risk. We decided NOT to run the greater risk, and did it legally to avoid any potential dangers.
I think you assumed i was born in the U.K., and I was not. I'm a legal immigrant. My country wasn't war torn , but neither is china.
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"am i missing something if they were already in an e.u country when they climbed aboard wernt they already in a safe country to claim asylum in? after all we always being told how great and liberal being in the e.u is.my guess is there economic migrants.dont get me wrong is still disgusting what happend to them.just some on here claiming they were fleeing for there lives from somewhere if thats the case why not claim asylum in belgium were they climbed aboard.
I don’t get this argument. If the U.K. did happen to be the nearest “safe” country, would you be quite happy for the UK to absorb every single refugee? I’m guessing tang would be a resounding no?
Would you be surprised to know that the UK only has something like 2% of the world’s refugees? People flee to all sorts of countries for all sorts of reasons.
Well if you want to talk numbers, the UK has only .88% of the World's population, so yes 2% of the refugees does sound high.Of course the counter argument will be that the UK is a relatively rich nation, so can afford it. The struggling NHS and welfare service, and indigenous below poverty line population might disagree, but there you go.."
Well, it would certainly be interesting to know how much additional pressure was put on the NHS by refugees, compared to, for example, the generally aging population.
I would have thought that a good proportion of refugees are younger, fitter, healthier... in order to make the often dangerous and arduous journey. But most of the pressure on the NHS came from an increasing ageing indigenous population. I will stand corrected on that though.
So that’s approx 0.6% of the population, almost certainly making disproportionately small use of health services. So we whilst we could blame them for the strain the NHS is under, or it could be a combination of an ageing population and years of cutbacks in funding.
I would also be interested in knowing what you think you might do if you were in their shoes. If your home now lay in rubble, your family was homeless and penniless.
There are no easy answers to any of this, but I’m not sure vilifying the refugee population is very helpful. |
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By *amissCouple
over a year ago
chelmsford |
"As I understand it the Government placed a duty on lorry drivers to check that their loads were secure and if thy were found to carry stowaways then they would be heavily fined. This was an attempt to deter drivers knowingly taking migrants.
It's not foolproof as stowaways can cling underneath, slash lorry curtains or make it look like seals are intact.
The Border Force use heat seeking equipment to detect stoaways but not every lorry can be checked. It might be that using a refrigerated lorry beats the heat detection system but stowaways run s risk of exposure to the cold.
The driver was probably arrested on suspicion of murder I guess. Even if he knew his human cargo this will more likely end in a manslaughter charge. He is innocent until proven guilty. He may not be charged at all.
"
Thank you |
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By *amissCouple
over a year ago
chelmsford |
"Please forgive my naivety, so the lorry driver has been arrested. Is it not their responsibility to know what or who, in this case, they are carrying? If the lorry is sealed, then how, at this point, has he been arrested on suspicion of murder?
Because they suspect he may have been involved or have known what he was carrying. He hasn't been charged, he is just being questioned, as you would expect if you were carrying 39 bodies in thw back of your lorry..."
Thank you, yes I see that now.
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"am i missing something if they were already in an e.u country when they climbed aboard wernt they already in a safe country to claim asylum in? after all we always being told how great and liberal being in the e.u is.my guess is there economic migrants.dont get me wrong is still disgusting what happend to them.just some on here claiming they were fleeing for there lives from somewhere if thats the case why not claim asylum in belgium were they climbed aboard.
I don’t get this argument. If the U.K. did happen to be the nearest “safe” country, would you be quite happy for the UK to absorb every single refugee? I’m guessing tang would be a resounding no?
Would you be surprised to know that the UK only has something like 2% of the world’s refugees? People flee to all sorts of countries for all sorts of reasons.
Well if you want to talk numbers, the UK has only .88% of the World's population, so yes 2% of the refugees does sound high.Of course the counter argument will be that the UK is a relatively rich nation, so can afford it. The struggling NHS and welfare service, and indigenous below poverty line population might disagree, but there you go..
Well, it would certainly be interesting to know how much additional pressure was put on the NHS by refugees, compared to, for example, the generally aging population.
I would have thought that a good proportion of refugees are younger, fitter, healthier... in order to make the often dangerous and arduous journey. But most of the pressure on the NHS came from an increasing ageing indigenous population. I will stand corrected on that though.
So that’s approx 0.6% of the population, almost certainly making disproportionately small use of health services. So we whilst we could blame them for the strain the NHS is under, or it could be a combination of an ageing population and years of cutbacks in funding.
I would also be interested in knowing what you think you might do if you were in their shoes. If your home now lay in rubble, your family was homeless and penniless.
There are no easy answers to any of this, but I’m not sure vilifying the refugee population is very helpful. "
Your comparing old people who have lived here all their lives,paid taxes, fought in our wars... to illegal immigrants?
Disgusting, and I'm an immigrant |
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"Chinese.......but I thought they were forced into this due to living in a war torn country, with stowing away the only option open to them being to try and enter the UK illegally!
I'm Not being serious.......
But this is exactly why I suggested not jumping to conclusions until we know!
Several people talked about how these people had no choice, assuming they are fleeing a war! It seems that they were incorrect.
China's human rights record is not great..
I agree, but I wasn't the person claiming the deceased were fleeing a war zone with no other choice. There's a lot of countries between here and China that are safe and accept refugees. Why do you think they chose the UK instead?
Chinese are very family oriented and tend to help each other. The UK has a thriving legal and illegal Chinese population who mostly go about their business without managing to offend anyone else. I would not be surprised if many of these unfortunates have links here.
You could easily be right.....
But it still doesn't mean they had no option but to head to the UK. They would have had alternate safe places wouldn't you agree?
They fact they WANT to join with family illegally,doesn't mean they have no other choice - i take it that makes sense to you?"
I’m sure many do stop in other countries. What would you do in their shoes? Aim for a country where you could maybe speak the language, or at least maybe get in contact with people who did... and maybe had contacts / family already in a country...? Or stop somewhere where you had none of that?
Whatever else, I’m sure there’s more to it than the often cited thing about people coming here because the UK is a soft touch.
Again, if it really is a soft touch, why are they going to such dangerous lengths to come here, and not just breeze through customs to be directed to their first benefits handout? |
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"Chinese.......but I thought they were forced into this due to living in a war torn country, with stowing away the only option open to them being to try and enter the UK illegally!
I'm Not being serious.......
But this is exactly why I suggested not jumping to conclusions until we know!
Several people talked about how these people had no choice, assuming they are fleeing a war! It seems that they were incorrect.
China's human rights record is not great..
I agree, but I wasn't the person claiming the deceased were fleeing a war zone with no other choice. There's a lot of countries between here and China that are safe and accept refugees. Why do you think they chose the UK instead?
Chinese are very family oriented and tend to help each other. The UK has a thriving legal and illegal Chinese population who mostly go about their business without managing to offend anyone else. I would not be surprised if many of these unfortunates have links here.
You could easily be right.....
But it still doesn't mean they had no option but to head to the UK. They would have had alternate safe places wouldn't you agree?
They fact they WANT to join with family illegally,doesn't mean they have no other choice - i take it that makes sense to you?
I’m sure many do stop in other countries. What would you do in their shoes? Aim for a country where you could maybe speak the language, or at least maybe get in contact with people who did... and maybe had contacts / family already in a country...? Or stop somewhere where you had none of that?
Whatever else, I’m sure there’s more to it than the often cited thing about people coming here because the UK is a soft touch.
Again, if it really is a soft touch, why are they going to such dangerous lengths to come here, and not just breeze through customs to be directed to their first benefits handout?"
When you say "what would you do in their shoes....."
Well I didn't come from China, but I WAS in their shoes(as you put it) as I moved to the UK many years ago. I have pointed this out previously today - But when me and my sister came over, we did it legally - we could have risked it and cut out alot of red tape and time by stowing away like these guys did, but we wanted to do things right and legally. |
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By *aysolCouple
over a year ago
Swansea |
Do we know they were immigrants? No.
Do we know what they were feeling?
No
Do we know why they were put in the back of a moving freezer?
No
Then stop making assumptions! They could have been taken against their will, they could be slaves, they could be sex slaves we just dont know yet. So please can people stop blaming them for what they did. What if they were illegal immigrants, does that mean they deserved to die in a freezer? Come on man- the people who did this are monsters. Can we stop putting the blame on people who suffocated to death in the back of a lorry?
It's beyond disrespectful. It's sick! They were human beings no matter what they were doing and no one deserves that fate!
Maybe they did wrong by trying to enter the country illegally but all they deserve for that is deportation. The monsters who traffic humans are the ones who need to be held accountable! |
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"Do we know they were immigrants? No.
Do we know what they were feeling?
No
Do we know why they were put in the back of a moving freezer?
No
Then stop making assumptions! They could have been taken against their will, they could be slaves, they could be sex slaves we just dont know yet. So please can people stop blaming them for what they did. What if they were illegal immigrants, does that mean they deserved to die in a freezer? Come on man- the people who did this are monsters. Can we stop putting the blame on people who suffocated to death in the back of a lorry?
It's beyond disrespectful. It's sick! They were human beings no matter what they were doing and no one deserves that fate!
Maybe they did wrong by trying to enter the country illegally but all they deserve for that is deportation. The monsters who traffic humans are the ones who need to be held accountable!"
I haven't seen anyone "putting the blame on people who suffocated to death" but if they have its in poor taste
I have seen several instances of people claiming they had no choice but to stow away as they were fleeing war zones!
I personally merely pointed out, we didn't know whether that was true or not at that point, they could be anything- i also pointed out the could easily be British.
As it happens they are Chinese - so i was right to wait, where as many others debated how unfeeling everyone was being unfeeling towards victims of a war, they were nothing to do with a War.
It is not unfeeling to point out that we should wait to find out before formulating opinions and presenting them as more.
They are no more to blame then a guy who tries to run accross a fast busy road to the other side, but doesn't make it. He took the chance and paid the ultimate price - its sad, but it can happen
If he were my friend, I'd be devastated, but i wouldn't try and convince people he was "forced to run" what does that change?
You guys act like if it was their choice then their deaths are less important than if they were forced into the container.
|
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"Chinese.......but I thought they were forced into this due to living in a war torn country, with stowing away the only option open to them being to try and enter the UK illegally!
I'm Not being serious.......
But this is exactly why I suggested not jumping to conclusions until we know!
Several people talked about how these people had no choice, assuming they are fleeing a war! It seems that they were incorrect.
China's human rights record is not great..
I agree, but I wasn't the person claiming the deceased were fleeing a war zone with no other choice. There's a lot of countries between here and China that are safe and accept refugees. Why do you think they chose the UK instead?
Chinese are very family oriented and tend to help each other. The UK has a thriving legal and illegal Chinese population who mostly go about their business without managing to offend anyone else. I would not be surprised if many of these unfortunates have links here.
You could easily be right.....
But it still doesn't mean they had no option but to head to the UK. They would have had alternate safe places wouldn't you agree?
They fact they WANT to join with family illegally,doesn't mean they have no other choice - i take it that makes sense to you?
I’m sure many do stop in other countries. What would you do in their shoes? Aim for a country where you could maybe speak the language, or at least maybe get in contact with people who did... and maybe had contacts / family already in a country...? Or stop somewhere where you had none of that?
Whatever else, I’m sure there’s more to it than the often cited thing about people coming here because the UK is a soft touch.
Again, if it really is a soft touch, why are they going to such dangerous lengths to come here, and not just breeze through customs to be directed to their first benefits handout?
When you say "what would you do in their shoes....."
Well I didn't come from China, but I WAS in their shoes(as you put it) as I moved to the UK many years ago. I have pointed this out previously today - But when me and my sister came over, we did it legally - we could have risked it and cut out alot of red tape and time by stowing away like these guys did, but we wanted to do things right and legally."
That's fair enough, but only up to a point. As another poster has pointed out, without knowing the circumstances which led to their eventual magic fate, it's hard to conclude very much.
Respectfully, I might not agree you were in their shoes at all, simply because you both wanted to migrate.
Reducing it to that would be like failing to distinguish between an Australian migrating for work, and a Syrian fleeing a war torn country, or Chinese fleeing political persecution. |
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"Do we know they were immigrants? No.
Do we know what they were feeling?
No
Do we know why they were put in the back of a moving freezer?
No
Then stop making assumptions! They could have been taken against their will, they could be slaves, they could be sex slaves we just dont know yet. So please can people stop blaming them for what they did. What if they were illegal immigrants, does that mean they deserved to die in a freezer? Come on man- the people who did this are monsters. Can we stop putting the blame on people who suffocated to death in the back of a lorry?
It's beyond disrespectful. It's sick! They were human beings no matter what they were doing and no one deserves that fate!
Maybe they did wrong by trying to enter the country illegally but all they deserve for that is deportation. The monsters who traffic humans are the ones who need to be held accountable!
I haven't seen anyone "putting the blame on people who suffocated to death" but if they have its in poor taste
I have seen several instances of people claiming they had no choice but to stow away as they were fleeing war zones!
I personally merely pointed out, we didn't know whether that was true or not at that point, they could be anything- i also pointed out the could easily be British.
As it happens they are Chinese - so i was right to wait, where as many others debated how unfeeling everyone was being unfeeling towards victims of a war, they were nothing to do with a War.
It is not unfeeling to point out that we should wait to find out before formulating opinions and presenting them as more.
They are no more to blame then a guy who tries to run accross a fast busy road to the other side, but doesn't make it. He took the chance and paid the ultimate price - its sad, but it can happen
If he were my friend, I'd be devastated, but i wouldn't try and convince people he was "forced to run" what does that change?
You guys act like if it was their choice then their deaths are less important than if they were forced into the container.
"
Don't take the war zone thing so literally. It should be pretty clear they were either there under duress, or fleeing something pretty awful if they felt that was their best option. War zone was just an example. Have you seem what sort of human rights abuses are taking place in China? In particular the displacement of Muslims in what has been described as a “systematic campaign of social re-engineering and cultural genocide”. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Chinese.......but I thought they were forced into this due to living in a war torn country, with stowing away the only option open to them being to try and enter the UK illegally!
I'm Not being serious.......
But this is exactly why I suggested not jumping to conclusions until we know!
Several people talked about how these people had no choice, assuming they are fleeing a war! It seems that they were incorrect.
China's human rights record is not great..
I agree, but I wasn't the person claiming the deceased were fleeing a war zone with no other choice. There's a lot of countries between here and China that are safe and accept refugees. Why do you think they chose the UK instead?
Chinese are very family oriented and tend to help each other. The UK has a thriving legal and illegal Chinese population who mostly go about their business without managing to offend anyone else. I would not be surprised if many of these unfortunates have links here.
You could easily be right.....
But it still doesn't mean they had no option but to head to the UK. They would have had alternate safe places wouldn't you agree?
They fact they WANT to join with family illegally,doesn't mean they have no other choice - i take it that makes sense to you?
Absolutely, but given the option of having to start from scratch, possibly alone, in a country/community that might not welcome you, as against joining friends/family that are already established, which would you choose?
I'm glad you agree they had alternative choices which were safer than uk.
It's not a case which "would" i choose, I made that choice and came to live the the UK, but I did it "legally" as it should be done - sure we could have done it illegally, it would have meant less delays, but a greater risk. We decided NOT to run the greater risk, and did it legally to avoid any potential dangers.
I think you assumed i was born in the U.K., and I was not. I'm a legal immigrant. My country wasn't war torn , but neither is china.
"
I didn't assume anything about your origins. It has no bearing on the matter in hand, but as you've disclosed that nugget, I'm glad it worked out for you.
|
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"Chinese.......but I thought they were forced into this due to living in a war torn country, with stowing away the only option open to them being to try and enter the UK illegally!
I'm Not being serious.......
But this is exactly why I suggested not jumping to conclusions until we know!
Several people talked about how these people had no choice, assuming they are fleeing a war! It seems that they were incorrect.
China's human rights record is not great..
I agree, but I wasn't the person claiming the deceased were fleeing a war zone with no other choice. There's a lot of countries between here and China that are safe and accept refugees. Why do you think they chose the UK instead?
Chinese are very family oriented and tend to help each other. The UK has a thriving legal and illegal Chinese population who mostly go about their business without managing to offend anyone else. I would not be surprised if many of these unfortunates have links here.
You could easily be right.....
But it still doesn't mean they had no option but to head to the UK. They would have had alternate safe places wouldn't you agree?
They fact they WANT to join with family illegally,doesn't mean they have no other choice - i take it that makes sense to you?
I’m sure many do stop in other countries. What would you do in their shoes? Aim for a country where you could maybe speak the language, or at least maybe get in contact with people who did... and maybe had contacts / family already in a country...? Or stop somewhere where you had none of that?
Whatever else, I’m sure there’s more to it than the often cited thing about people coming here because the UK is a soft touch.
Again, if it really is a soft touch, why are they going to such dangerous lengths to come here, and not just breeze through customs to be directed to their first benefits handout?
When you say "what would you do in their shoes....."
Well I didn't come from China, but I WAS in their shoes(as you put it) as I moved to the UK many years ago. I have pointed this out previously today - But when me and my sister came over, we did it legally - we could have risked it and cut out alot of red tape and time by stowing away like these guys did, but we wanted to do things right and legally.
That's fair enough, but only up to a point. As another poster has pointed out, without knowing the circumstances which led to their eventual magic fate, it's hard to conclude very much.
Respectfully, I might not agree you were in their shoes at all, simply because you both wanted to migrate.
Reducing it to that would be like failing to distinguish between an Australian migrating for work, and a Syrian fleeing a war torn country, or Chinese fleeing political persecution."
That should gave been tragic fate, not magic fate. Flipping auto correct. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"This is an unprecedented tragedy and I feel so awful for those who died and there families. But this man the lorry driver has been named and shamed by the media . For all we know he could be an innocent party in all of this . He may not have known what was exactly inside the cargo when he went to pick it up but yet his name and face will always be remembered for this. "
Not unprecedented ,2000 Dutch wagon driver was jailed for 14 years when 50+ were found dead in a wagon at Dover,people have been kept unaware of the enormity of illegal immigration in this country governments can't handle the situation or the truth |
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"Perhaps one day all this stupidity over borders will stop.
Borders are an artificial barrier created to allow a few people to control everyone within it.
Ancient power trips."
You'd have to get rid of countries as well. And pay everyone the same hourly rate no matter where they lived, or what they did for a living. |
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"
You'd have to get rid of countries as well. And pay everyone the same hourly rate no matter where they lived, or what they did for a living. "
Don't see why we-d need to get rid of countries - they'd just become descriptive names like Liverpool and Manchester.
Someone making a widget in place A getting paid the same as a person making a widget in place B?
Sounds fair to me.  |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"Perhaps one day all this stupidity over borders will stop.
Borders are an artificial barrier created to allow a few people to control everyone within it.
Ancient power trips."
Yes, we are all the same species |
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"
You'd have to get rid of countries as well. And pay everyone the same hourly rate no matter where they lived, or what they did for a living.
Don't see why we-d need to get rid of countries - they'd just become descriptive names like Liverpool and Manchester.
Someone making a widget in place A getting paid the same as a person making a widget in place B?
Sounds fair to me. "
What about one person running performing transplant surgery in place A, and one person driving an ice cream van in place B? |
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"
You'd have to get rid of countries as well. And pay everyone the same hourly rate no matter where they lived, or what they did for a living.
Don't see why we-d need to get rid of countries - they'd just become descriptive names like Liverpool and Manchester.
Someone making a widget in place A getting paid the same as a person making a widget in place B?
Sounds fair to me. "
How would you make sure everyone had exactly the same health care and financial benefits globally? |
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"
You'd have to get rid of countries as well. And pay everyone the same hourly rate no matter where they lived, or what they did for a living.
Don't see why we-d need to get rid of countries - they'd just become descriptive names like Liverpool and Manchester.
Someone making a widget in place A getting paid the same as a person making a widget in place B?
Sounds fair to me.
How would you make sure everyone had exactly the same health care and financial benefits globally? "
Otherwise, everyone might move to Norway. Then they wouldn't be able to afford to look after everyone. |
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"
What about one person running performing transplant surgery in place A, and one person driving an ice cream van in place B?"
How is that different from an ice cream man in London and a transplant surgeon in Liverpool?
|
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"
What about one person running performing transplant surgery in place A, and one person driving an ice cream van in place B?
How is that different from an ice cream man in London and a transplant surgeon in Liverpool?
"
So in liverpool, you'll pay the same wage for either job?! |
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"
How would you make sure everyone had exactly the same health care and financial benefits globally? "
People making g widgets should all be paid about the same.
Healthcare is easy, without the borders and with an equalised monetary system, setting up standardised healthcare shouldn't be too difficult - we already manage that on a per country basis in the West, so it isn't that hard.
The biggest hurdle, and why we'll never achieve it, is because people at the top of the food chain have vested interests in not letting it happen.
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My daughter read the story so far in the mail online.....the driver ow we the cab not the trailer ....used to work for a large haulage company but went out on his own this year....so he drove his cab from Ireland to pick up the trailer.....and then after a short while stopped to get the paperwork out the back of the trailer ....the rest you know..... |
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"
So in liverpool, you'll pay the same wage for either job?!"
Nope - I never said ice cream sellers and surgeons got paid the same - that was you.
All I said was that people doing the same jobs should be paid the same regardless of where they do them. |
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"
How would you make sure everyone had exactly the same health care and financial benefits globally?
People making g widgets should all be paid about the same.
Healthcare is easy, without the borders and with an equalised monetary system, setting up standardised healthcare shouldn't be too difficult - we already manage that on a per country basis in the West, so it isn't that hard.
The biggest hurdle, and why we'll never achieve it, is because people at the top of the food chain have vested interests in not letting it happen.
"
You say "about the same" so there'd be a difference. Well I'll move to where the widget makers get paid the most i reckon. |
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"
So in liverpool, you'll pay the same wage for either job?!
Nope - I never said ice cream sellers and surgeons got paid the same - that was you.
All I said was that people doing the same jobs should be paid the same regardless of where they do them. "
So the same wage in liverpool and Uganda for making a widget? |
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I think that wages are an issue for some. Top sports stars like Messi, Woods, Hsmilton, Williams sisters deserve every penny..
Why ? There are thousands of brain surgeons but nobody can win on clay like Nadal... Best in his field... |
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"I think that wages are an issue for some. Top sports stars like Messi, Woods, Hsmilton, Williams sisters deserve every penny..
Why ? There are thousands of brain surgeons but nobody can win on clay like Nadal... Best in his field..."
That's true, some people travel thousands of miles for what they think will be a good wage, they they find out the cost of living! See Norway.. |
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"
You say "about the same" so there'd be a difference. Well I'll move to where the widget makers get paid the most i reckon.
I'm a benevolent dictator me... "
I think your utopia would be bankrupt within a week. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Some ppl take stupid risks crossing train tracks or speeding in cars because they're late for work, ppl take stupid risks its built in us all and it's oddly a survival instinct.... |
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"
So the same wage in liverpool and Uganda for making a widget? "
Same skills, same job - why not?
Seems perfectly fair to me and it has the added bonus that it'll put a stop to the situation that has just cost 39 people their lives. |
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"Some ppl take stupid risks crossing train tracks or speeding in cars because they're late for work, ppl take stupid risks its built in us all and it's oddly a survival instinct.... "
A faint cock never fucked a fair maiden. |
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For reasons stated previously.. I honestly don't give a rat's arse about this tragedy.. wake up people...
If it's on your doorstep it's news but there people being slaughtered every day the world over.. |
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"
So the same wage in liverpool and Uganda for making a widget?
Same skills, same job - why not?
Seems perfectly fair to me and it has the added bonus that it'll put a stop to the situation that has just cost 39 people their lives."
So the cost of living would have to be equal across the planet to. |
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"
That's fair enough, but only up to a point. As another poster has pointed out, without knowing the circumstances which led to their eventual magic fate, it's hard to conclude very much.
Respectfully, I might not agree you were in their shoes at all, simply because you both wanted to migrate.
Reducing it to that would be like failing to distinguish between an Australian migrating for work, and a Syrian fleeing a war torn country, or Chinese fleeing political persecution."
I think maybe crossed wires here
"Another poster has pointed out,without..." Im so glad someone sees reason!
I'm not sure if you have realised that other poster is possibly me since that's been my viewpoint and stance on this since my first message on this topic - we don't know yet, let's wait to see whats happened before labelling them one way or the other. That seems fair and reasonable I think.
When I stated this some felt I was being unfeeling as these people were fleeing from war. Again I stated we didn't yet know. This is the reason that i bring up the war thing literally - as the posters I was replying to/being replied to from, were stating that in literal terms.
And as it turns out..... it's seems they weren't fleeing War.
I'm not trying to gloat, just showing that waiting to find out what's happening will stop you debating irrelevant "war hypothesis" - and again I wasn't pro or anti any explanation for them being in the container. Others felt it was important. |
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"
So the cost of living would have to be equal across the planet to.
I suspect the cost of living is also an artificial construct within artificial borders as well.
"
So you reckon a house in London should cost the same as a house in the Australian out-back? |
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Since I was old enough to watch telly I have seen famine, flood and drought. African kids with swollen bellies and flys in their eyes, bomb victims, terror victims, war footage, homeless people, cancer victims, abused animals. I am immune to it.. I personally could not give a flying monkeys about this story.. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Since I was old enough to watch telly I have seen famine, flood and drought. African kids with swollen bellies and flys in their eyes, bomb victims, terror victims, war footage, homeless people, cancer victims, abused animals. I am immune to it.. I personally could not give a flying monkeys about this story.. "
For someone that's not interested in the story you have posted an awful lot across 2 threads... |
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"Since I was old enough to watch telly I have seen famine, flood and drought. African kids with swollen bellies and flys in their eyes, bomb victims, terror victims, war footage, homeless people, cancer victims, abused animals. I am immune to it.. I personally could not give a flying monkeys about this story..
For someone that's not interested in the story you have posted an awful lot across 2 threads..."
TPIB  |
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By *ENGUYMan
over a year ago
Hull |
"I wonder if there'll be links to The ira..."
According to police and armed services authorities years ago, the IRA were regarded as the best smugglers world wide! Even the Columbian drug cartels learnt from the IRA! |
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"I wonder if there'll be links to The ira...
According to police and armed services authorities years ago, the IRA were regarded as the best smugglers world wide! Even the Columbian drug cartels learnt from the IRA!"
Doubt it's the IRA.
I suspect they're far better organised. |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"Perhaps one day all this stupidity over borders will stop.
Borders are an artificial barrier created to allow a few people to control everyone within it.
Ancient power trips."
So you'd get rid of governments as well then? And rules and laws? |
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By *aysolCouple
over a year ago
Swansea |
"I wonder if there'll be links to The ira...
According to police and armed services authorities years ago, the IRA were regarded as the best smugglers world wide! Even the Columbian drug cartels learnt from the IRA!"
Well if it is they didn't do a good job this time... |
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By *aysolCouple
over a year ago
Swansea |
"An interesting thought. Borders are used to control the people within and raise taxes just as much as to keep people out. It gives the people in charge power over us "
So if there were no borders there would be no tax and no people in control? I think thats pretty naieve. Borders exist as a way of protecting ourselves from the outside world. |
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"An interesting thought. Borders are used to control the people within and raise taxes just as much as to keep people out. It gives the people in charge power over us "
Yes. Although it's within human nature to cross even natural borders like mountains and rivers just because they want what's on the other side. |
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"They are a means of population control. They exist only in the minds of one species.
"
Only one species uses tax or earnings to pay for health care, welfare, infrastructure etc. Every other species if you're weak, you die. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"They are a means of population control. They exist only in the minds of one species.
"
Almost all species have territory and borders, my cat is the most placid creature on the planet, so laid back you could think she was a sloth, BUT if a neighbor cat crosses her invisible border lines there is going to be trouble!
Unfortunately this case is looking more like humans exploiting humans for slave labour, border or no border it would not stop criminals being gits |
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I believe the only reason Germany opened the borders to millions was not born out of charity. It has an ageing population and needs a younger workforce to to tax and support the country. And more people to sell stuff to. All good for the economy I guess |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"They are a means of population control. They exist only in the minds of one species.
Almost all species have territory and borders, my cat is the most placid creature on the planet, so laid back you could think she was a sloth, BUT if a neighbor cat crosses her invisible border lines there is going to be trouble!
"
Our neighbour has a cat. Very protective of its own territory, in fact it won't shit in its own territory. More than happy to shit in our garden every night though. |
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"They are a means of population control. They exist only in the minds of one species.
Almost all species have territory and borders, my cat is the most placid creature on the planet, so laid back you could think she was a sloth, BUT if a neighbor cat crosses her invisible border lines there is going to be trouble!
Our neighbour has a cat. Very protective of its own territory, in fact it won't shit in its own territory. More than happy to shit in our garden every night though."
Do bloomin annoying.. at least most dog owners pick up the shit... Cat owners often have little empathy when their neighbours garden is covered in their cats shit |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"They are a means of population control. They exist only in the minds of one species.
Almost all species have territory and borders, my cat is the most placid creature on the planet, so laid back you could think she was a sloth, BUT if a neighbor cat crosses her invisible border lines there is going to be trouble!
Our neighbour has a cat. Very protective of its own territory, in fact it won't shit in its own territory. More than happy to shit in our garden every night though.
Do bloomin annoying.. at least most dog owners pick up the shit... Cat owners often have little empathy when their neighbours garden is covered in their cats shit"
The first party that puts in its manifesto to ban cats shitting in next door's garden gets my vote! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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We know little at the this - unless I've missed any breaking info this morning but most people have opinions based nothing on this incident but more reflective of their personal feelings or past experiences.
What I find terrible is the way the media has named and condemned the 25 Ur old driver. Our society's hunger and thirst for blood is not of an advanced progressive society in any way. We genuinely live in a convicted society where one has to prove ones innocence. Criminalised' by the media.
I think the media need to be taken to task on this, fined so much that it really hurts them and remove any profit made from a story.
They have ruined the life of this 25 yr old driver. |
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"We know little at the this - unless I've missed any breaking info this morning but most people have opinions based nothing on this incident but more reflective of their personal feelings or past experiences.
What I find terrible is the way the media has named and condemned the 25 Ur old driver. Our society's hunger and thirst for blood is not of an advanced progressive society in any way. We genuinely live in a convicted society where one has to prove ones innocence. Criminalised' by the media.
I think the media need to be taken to task on this, fined so much that it really hurts them and remove any profit made from a story.
They have ruined the life of this 25 yr old driver."
Great post
I've been saying this for a while, we just don't know enough yet.
Just get ready to be accused of being uncaring |
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I posted too early! Wet fingers and a touchscreen!
In fairness, the media have merely named the driver. No one has accused him of anything(unless I've missed breaking news)
So if the general public interpret his questioning to mean he's guilty of murdering 39 people, that's not really the medias fault.
If he's innocent, his life will not be destroyed at all, it will emerge, and I dare say he may even give his version of events to the press/tv once it's all settled down. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I posted too early! Wet fingers and a touchscreen!
In fairness, the media have merely named the driver. No one has accused him of anything(unless I've missed breaking news)
So if the general public interpret his questioning to mean he's guilty of murdering 39 people, that's not really the medias fault.
If he's innocent, his life will not be destroyed at all, it will emerge, and I dare say he may even give his version of events to the press/tv once it's all settled down."
And down the line if he so chose, he could make a lot of cash for his story |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I posted too early! Wet fingers and a touchscreen!
In fairness, the media have merely named the driver. No one has accused him of anything(unless I've missed breaking news)
So if the general public interpret his questioning to mean he's guilty of murdering 39 people, that's not really the medias fault.
If he's innocent, his life will not be destroyed at all, it will emerge, and I dare say he may even give his version of events to the press/tv once it's all settled down.
And down the line if he so chose, he could make a lot of cash for his story"
Really, so that makes it ok?
No ones identity should be made public until after the trial and only then if found guilty. If found not guilty then their identity should still be kept private.
As far as being unsympathetic towards those who went through this horrendous ordeal, one can assume whatever they like. It's more a reflection on those who may try to say that without knowing.
There are many issues and it's good to be reminded we're all only speculating. |
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I think that the Press are treating this like a death of Princess Diana story..
In the coming weeks they will be looking for skeletons in his and his family closet.
They are milking it for every piece of copy they can sell.
Sadly,without the ghouls amongst us, it would not work.
Some of the public are like piranhas feeding on the story.. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"They are a means of population control. They exist only in the minds of one species.
Almost all species have territory and borders, my cat is the most placid creature on the planet, so laid back you could think she was a sloth, BUT if a neighbor cat crosses her invisible border lines there is going to be trouble!
Our neighbour has a cat. Very protective of its own territory, in fact it won't shit in its own territory. More than happy to shit in our garden every night though.
Do bloomin annoying.. at least most dog owners pick up the shit... Cat owners often have little empathy when their neighbours garden is covered in their cats shit
The first party that puts in its manifesto to ban cats shitting in next door's garden gets my vote!"
Cuddle errant kitty. Cover it in it's own shit. Send it home.
Wear gloves.. |
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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago
Derry |
"I posted too early! Wet fingers and a touchscreen!
In fairness, the media have merely named the driver. No one has accused him of anything(unless I've missed breaking news)
So if the general public interpret his questioning to mean he's guilty of murdering 39 people, that's not really the medias fault.
If he's innocent, his life will not be destroyed at all, it will emerge, and I dare say he may even give his version of events to the press/tv once it's all settled down.
And down the line if he so chose, he could make a lot of cash for his story
Really, so that makes it ok?
No ones identity should be made public until after the trial and only then if found guilty. If found not guilty then their identity should still be kept private.
As far as being unsympathetic towards those who went through this horrendous ordeal, one can assume whatever they like. It's more a reflection on those who may try to say that without knowing.
There are many issues and it's good to be reminded we're all only speculating. "
It wasn't hard for the press to work out his identity. It was his 'friends' on facebook that were the first to name him. Thereafter it is just a case of making inferences and quoting other newspapers as sources.
This is transnational crime. The size and scale of it all is eyewatering. It will very hard to identify and prosecute the brains behind it. This guy is all they have at the momment, the natural thing to do is try and work back up the chain. There's a good book about the business models used by these organisations called McMafia by Misha Glenny. The TV series of the same name was inspired by it. |
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"We know little at the this - unless I've missed any breaking info this morning but most people have opinions based nothing on this incident but more reflective of their personal feelings or past experiences.
What I find terrible is the way the media has named and condemned the 25 Ur old driver. Our society's hunger and thirst for blood is not of an advanced progressive society in any way. We genuinely live in a convicted society where one has to prove ones innocence. Criminalised' by the media.
I think the media need to be taken to task on this, fined so much that it really hurts them and remove any profit made from a story.
They have ruined the life of this 25 yr old driver."
I agree with you. Based on what we know at present the driver is very small cog in what appears to be a very large operation. I wonder how much he even knew about what he was carrying? On the over hand if he was involved in the planning of the operation that would put a very different complexion on matters and he would deserve what ever came his way.
Really need to after the "Mr Bigs" who in all probability are not even in the country.
Sad tragic even for 39 people and their families. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
I'm keeping an open mind about the driver.
I can't help thinking, however, what would happen to me if I get stopped at an airport carrying someone else's luggage and horrible stuff is found inside.
I doubt if a plea of ignorance would get me out the clink.
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With total respect and sympathy for those and their families, I would like to ask a question to those sympathetic of migration in general.
If a lorry driver is part of an illegal operation that brought 100s safely into this country would you applaud his actions in helping migrants, albeit for financial reward.
If you applaud those actions do you reverse your opinion when it goes horribly wrong ?
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
The question going forward from this must surely be how do we stop a terrible tragedy like this from happening again?
I'm not sure what we could do with regard to in Belgium / Framce / wherever; but what should be done on our side of the channel or in our ports? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The question going forward from this must surely be how do we stop a terrible tragedy like this from happening again?
I'm not sure what we could do with regard to in Belgium / Framce / wherever; but what should be done on our side of the channel or in our ports?"
Build a big wall? |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"With total respect and sympathy for those and their families, I would like to ask a question to those sympathetic of migration in general.
If a lorry driver is part of an illegal operation that brought 100s safely into this country would you applaud his actions in helping migrants, albeit for financial reward.
If you applaud those actions do you reverse your opinion when it goes horribly wrong ?
"
No and no.
I believe in population mixing and free movement.
Criminals can take a run and jump, basically. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I just have two thoughts (or rather questions) on this:
a) what drives people to take such a huge risk
b) the trailer was collected at 01:05 Wednesday morning and yet ambulance staff found the dead bodies in that trailer at 01:40 about a mile away?
And of course may their God be with those who died in such terrible circumstances. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"As per sky all were Chinese citizen. All the way from China to UK in shipping container survival rate was/ is almost zero. RIP "
No they did not come all the way from China (and actually they now think its Vietnamese people) in that trailer. And it was a RoRo refrigerated trailer not a shipping container |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I'm keeping an open mind about the driver.
I can't help thinking, however, what would happen to me if I get stopped at an airport carrying someone else's luggage and horrible stuff is found inside.
I doubt if a plea of ignorance would get me out the clink.
"
I wondered that too. One report said he collapsed when he realised what was inside.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I'm quite surprised at some responses here in as much of lack of knowledge of the size of organised human trafficking in Ireland and UK. Thousands are trafficked each year and on a global scale it's the second largest criminal activity behind drugs and above arms. Projections say it will surpass drugs within 10 yrs. It's more lucrative as it's a repeat commodity. |
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Loads, but for many a dream life awaits money is given by family often already here to get them over, and paid back once they start working, then they can help the family back home and try to get more family over,
desperation and following the dream is the reason people do this
The crime is purely the traffickers if everyone paid amounts like that it totals over a million on that one death trip, I really wouldn’t be surprised if many more have perished this way and the body’s are buried |
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"I don't think the traffickers want them to perish..it's bad for business "
Of course they don’t, but they have detectors that monitor heat and breathing so these people was in a sealed cooling container |
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By *eavenNhellCouple
over a year ago
carrbrook stalybridge |
"39 people have died. 39 lost souls. No matter where they originate, these are our brothers and sisters.
No borders."
did anybody see the comments section of the Mail on line ? disgusting words from disgusting people |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"39 people have died. 39 lost souls. No matter where they originate, these are our brothers and sisters.
No borders."
Just as an aside, coming from Scotland, are you for or against independence? |
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By *nnejohnCouple
over a year ago
warrington |
driver charged
"He is due to appear at Chelmsford Magistrates' Court on Monday 28 October charged with 39 counts of manslaughter, conspiracy to traffic people, conspiracy to assist unlawful immigration and money laundering |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"driver charged
"He is due to appear at Chelmsford Magistrates' Court on Monday 28 October charged with 39 counts of manslaughter, conspiracy to traffic people, conspiracy to assist unlawful immigration and money laundering"
Bit late mate ^^^^^^^^^ |
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Why pay £30,000 for a ride in the back of a fridge, when a one way business class flight from the east will only set you back about £1,000 ?. Plus a few nights in a cheap hotel for a few hundred quid, then do the disappearing act ? |
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By *amissCouple
over a year ago
chelmsford |
"Why pay £30,000 for a ride in the back of a fridge, when a one way business class flight from the east will only set you back about £1,000 ?. Plus a few nights in a cheap hotel for a few hundred quid, then do the disappearing act ?"
I thought this, maybe it included false papers?
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"Why pay £30,000 for a ride in the back of a fridge, when a one way business class flight from the east will only set you back about £1,000 ?. Plus a few nights in a cheap hotel for a few hundred quid, then do the disappearing act ?"
they aren't sold a ride in a refrigerated lorry. They're told they will be travelling by plane and car. |
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By *amissCouple
over a year ago
chelmsford |
"Why pay £30,000 for a ride in the back of a fridge, when a one way business class flight from the east will only set you back about £1,000 ?. Plus a few nights in a cheap hotel for a few hundred quid, then do the disappearing act ?
they aren't sold a ride in a refrigerated lorry. They're told they will be travelling by plane and car."
Good grief! |
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By *iger4uWoman
over a year ago
In my happy place |
"39 people have died. 39 lost souls. No matter where they originate, these are our brothers and sisters.
No borders."
I dont agree.
They could buy passports and flights with the money.
Tragic loss of life by bad choices. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Why pay £30,000 for a ride in the back of a fridge, when a one way business class flight from the east will only set you back about £1,000 ?. Plus a few nights in a cheap hotel for a few hundred quid, then do the disappearing act ?"
Maybe because you need papers and passport to prove your coming here legally |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Why pay £30,000 for a ride in the back of a fridge, when a one way business class flight from the east will only set you back about £1,000 ?. Plus a few nights in a cheap hotel for a few hundred quid, then do the disappearing act ?
Maybe because you need papers and passport to prove your coming here legally "
Otherwise border control in uk will just turn you around and not allow entry. People assume it’s easy to come into our country but it’s not. |
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"Why pay £30,000 for a ride in the back of a fridge, when a one way business class flight from the east will only set you back about £1,000 ?. Plus a few nights in a cheap hotel for a few hundred quid, then do the disappearing act ?
Maybe because you need papers and passport to prove your coming here legally
Otherwise border control in uk will just turn you around and not allow entry. People assume it’s easy to come into our country but it’s not. "
Its very difficult if you don't have the correct documents. Hence people traffickers |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Why pay £30,000 for a ride in the back of a fridge, when a one way business class flight from the east will only set you back about £1,000 ?. Plus a few nights in a cheap hotel for a few hundred quid, then do the disappearing act ?
Maybe because you need papers and passport to prove your coming here legally "
And usually you need X amount of money to support yourself and a home back in your country and a sponsor from uk to claim your on holiday. |
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The deaths are tragic. It will not deter others from paying the smugglers sadly. I wonder how many people think about the hard drugs that enter in a similar fashion, undetected and cause so much death, crime and family upset. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Perhaps hand over these smugglers to the authorities in Vietnam.. "
They wont find the smugglers, just low level contractors doing a small part.
There should be a high publicity level of returning every immigrant or refugee who does not present themselves at the border for legal entry, and long prison sentences or loss of citizenship for anyone assisting illegal immigrants. Only when the message gets out there that there is no good life in the UK will the smuggling stop. Of course every other country needs to also do their part, or the death toll will just move. |
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