FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > Should Shamima Begum Be Alowed To Return To Uk
Should Shamima Begum Be Alowed To Return To Uk
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No! To many innocent people died because of what she wentto fight for. What happens if she returns and a year later sets a suicide bomb off and kills more innocent people. She made her bed when she ran away. |
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I don't feel qualified to comment on situations like this and trust more qualified people that have more information to make the right decision...
Having said that, I have just watched her interviewed and I don't think she did herself any favours. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I'm conflicted. I can't help thinking a 15yo joining is one who has been groomed.
There's outrage a 15yo can choose to be vaccinated or not. But a 15yo who goes to fight for terrorists is fully accountable for her actions.
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"I'm conflicted. I can't help thinking a 15yo joining is one who has been groomed.
There's outrage a 15yo can choose to be vaccinated or not. But a 15yo who goes to fight for terrorists is fully accountable for her actions.
"
GROOMED her say so, Her saying she never took part or saw any terrorist activity so how can she help us to avoid terrorism. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Yes
On the basis that other UK nationals have been allowed to return, and prosecuted. Why single her out?
There should be consistency here, you either let them all return, or bar them all from returning.
I don't believe using her alone as a flagship example.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Does she still have her British citizenship? Didn’t they refuse it ? I thought she was Dutch now as she married a cloggy"
It's illegal to make someone nationless. Bangladesh had already relinquished her nationality |
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Yes let's accept all terrorist back to the UK and hopefully they can have kids and claim benefits and we can pay for them all as they build their very own terrorist group and then we can all bitch why the government and Boris or Tony or whoever let it happen! Brilliant lol
I have a dream.....  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Yes let's accept all terrorist back to the UK and hopefully they can have kids and claim benefits and we can pay for them all as they build their very own terrorist group and then we can all bitch why the government and Boris or Tony or whoever let it happen! Brilliant lol
I have a dream..... "
They should chuck all of them out then! |
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"Yes let's accept all terrorist back to the UK and hopefully they can have kids and claim benefits and we can pay for them all as they build their very own terrorist group and then we can all bitch why the government and Boris or Tony or whoever let it happen! Brilliant lol
I have a dream.....
They should chuck all of them out then! "
Yes, chuck out all the dreamers, that is what you're saying? Road to hell is paved with good intentions! You know them all? Amazing! |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
If a 15 year old was old old enough to know what she was doing then surely there can be no argument anymore about 16 year olds being allowed to vote.
Teenagers of 15/16 years old either know what they are doing, or they don’t. |
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Wow what an absolutely bollox statement
Many factors determine a young persons decision making process (indeed anybody’s decision making )
Social background
Genetics
Education
Religion
A million things
What tosh |
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
"Does she still have her British citizenship? Didn’t they refuse it ? I thought she was Dutch now as she married a cloggy
It's illegal to make someone nationless. Bangladesh had already relinquished her nationality "
If I recall correctly she was not made nationless, just lost her British side. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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My personal view definately not she was 15 and thats old enough to know if she wanted to join a terrorist organisation or not.
My mate dave who is muslim said if she wants to live by following shariah law she should go to saudi arabia where the fundamentalist views come from and are preached via their royal family...not my words but are his. |
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Yeah I think she should, unfortunately she’s British. If Britain refuses to have her back what’s stopping other countries doing the same. In 2020 the UK deported over 5000 people, what would happen if their Citizenships were taken away, where would you deport them to. I don’t care if she was groomed or not, personally I’d let her rot there but it’s hypocritical to want foreign terrorists deported but then refuse to deal with Uk born terrorists. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Does she still have her British citizenship? Didn’t they refuse it ? I thought she was Dutch now as she married a cloggy
It's illegal to make someone nationless. Bangladesh had already relinquished her nationality
If I recall correctly she was not made nationless, just lost her British side. "
British was the only nationality left, Take that away and... 
She should be treated like the others who hsve returned, either accept them ALL back and put on trial, or chuck them ALL out the uk.
Why treat her different from the other terrorists?
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Why are you even talking about it. She made her bed and now she lay in it. If however it was down to me. Id deport all her family. Why.
Well in thier culture you dont fart without someone knowing about it. |
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By *estivalMan
over a year ago
borehamwood |
"Does she still have her British citizenship? Didn’t they refuse it ? I thought she was Dutch now as she married a cloggy
It's illegal to make someone nationless. Bangladesh had already relinquished her nationality
If I recall correctly she was not made nationless, just lost her British side.
British was the only nationality left, Take that away and...
She should be treated like the others who hsve returned, either accept them ALL back and put on trial, or chuck them ALL out the uk.
Why treat her different from the other terrorists?
"
im all for chucking everyone out who went out to join isis then decided to come back here,its laughable the image shes trying to portray now skin tight legging skimpy vest top make up and hair flowing who ever is advising her must think we are all stupid,saying that im sure some will think shes changed as shes no longer in her burqa |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Why are you even talking about it. She made her bed and now she lay in it. If however it was down to me. Id deport all her family. Why.
Well in thier culture you dont fart without someone knowing about it."
All her family?  |
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By *os19Man
over a year ago
Edmonton |
"Yes, she should return, be tried in court , take and accept any punishment she is given "
. I agree that way we maybe able to find out how she came to be radicalised and see if we can put a stop to it for the future.If she is found guilty then her prison sentence will reflect on how much of a threat she is to our society.
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By *ovebjsMan
over a year ago
Bristol |
"Does she still have her British citizenship? Didn’t they refuse it ? I thought she was Dutch now as she married a cloggy
It's illegal to make someone nationless. Bangladesh had already relinquished her nationality
If I recall correctly she was not made nationless, just lost her British side.
British was the only nationality left, Take that away and...
She should be treated like the others who hsve returned, either accept them ALL back and put on trial, or chuck them ALL out the uk.
Why treat her different from the other terrorists?
im all for chucking everyone out who went out to join isis then decided to come back here,its laughable the image shes trying to portray now skin tight legging skimpy vest top make up and hair flowing who ever is advising her must think we are all stupid,saying that im sure some will think shes changed as shes no longer in her burqa"
I was thinking the same, has she forsaken her religion now then ?
All a bit fishy  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Yes, she should return, be tried in court , take and accept any punishment she is given "
Another lefty socialist supporting vile terrorists. I bet if Shamima Begum was Jewish you would be slatting her! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Yes, she should return, be tried in court , take and accept any punishment she is given
Another lefty socialist supporting vile terrorists. I bet if Shamima Begum was Jewish you would be slatting her!"
PMSL, your a bit tetchy? She broke the law, she should be brought back to face the consequences, how is that ‘supporting terrorists’? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Yes, she should return, be tried in court , take and accept any punishment she is given
Another lefty socialist supporting vile terrorists. I bet if Shamima Begum was Jewish you would be slatting her!
PMSL, your a bit tetchy? She broke the law, she should be brought back to face the consequences, how is that ‘supporting terrorists’? "
So your not denying your a socialist lefty eh?
Does the same apply to Tory Blair, should he be charged with war crimes???
He broke the Law! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Yes, she should return, be tried in court , take and accept any punishment she is given
Another lefty socialist supporting vile terrorists. I bet if Shamima Begum was Jewish you would be slatting her!
PMSL, your a bit tetchy? She broke the law, she should be brought back to face the consequences, how is that ‘supporting terrorists’?
So your not denying your a socialist lefty eh?
Does the same apply to Tory Blair, should he be charged with war crimes???
He broke the Law!"
I would class myself as left off centre , are you a capitalist ‘righty’ ? When did Tony Blair have his British citizenship removed? |
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"Does she still have her British citizenship? Didn’t they refuse it ? I thought she was Dutch now as she married a cloggy
It's illegal to make someone nationless. Bangladesh had already relinquished her nationality
If I recall correctly she was not made nationless, just lost her British side.
British was the only nationality left, Take that away and...
She should be treated like the others who hsve returned, either accept them ALL back and put on trial, or chuck them ALL out the uk.
Why treat her different from the other terrorists?
im all for chucking everyone out who went out to join isis then decided to come back here,its laughable the image shes trying to portray now skin tight legging skimpy vest top make up and hair flowing who ever is advising her must think we are all stupid,saying that im sure some will think shes changed as shes no longer in her burqa"
Am with you on this, having lost people I care about i have no sympathy for any of those that went to join this so called caliphate, none of them should be able to return here, when they decided to join a terrorist group as far as I am concerned they kissed goodbye to there uk citizenship etc. If we have them back to prosecute them its us the tax payer whose money is being wasted and then the cost of reform or prison, it just isn't worth it, leave them to rot just like they would have done with every single one of us kuffar as they call us. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Yes, she should return, be tried in court , take and accept any punishment she is given
Another lefty socialist supporting vile terrorists. I bet if Shamima Begum was Jewish you would be slatting her!
PMSL, your a bit tetchy? She broke the law, she should be brought back to face the consequences, how is that ‘supporting terrorists’?
So your not denying your a socialist lefty eh?
Does the same apply to Tory Blair, should he be charged with war crimes???
He broke the Law!
I would class myself as left off centre , are you a capitalist ‘righty’ ? When did Tony Blair have his British citizenship removed? "
Who’s getting tetchy now? Were talking about not supporting terrorists, and given them a voice.Remember Begum supported the Manchester bombing, youngest victim an 8 year old child.
Lefty of centre lol. You still support a racist child grooming party. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Yes, she should return, be tried in court , take and accept any punishment she is given
Another lefty socialist supporting vile terrorists. I bet if Shamima Begum was Jewish you would be slatting her!
PMSL, your a bit tetchy? She broke the law, she should be brought back to face the consequences, how is that ‘supporting terrorists’?
So your not denying your a socialist lefty eh?
Does the same apply to Tory Blair, should he be charged with war crimes???
He broke the Law!
I would class myself as left off centre , are you a capitalist ‘righty’ ? When did Tony Blair have his British citizenship removed?
Who’s getting tetchy now? Were talking about not supporting terrorists, and given them a voice.Remember Begum supported the Manchester bombing, youngest victim an 8 year old child.
Lefty of centre lol. You still support a racist child grooming party."
I am not sure if you can read or not but I want her to return so she can face justice , I haven’t heard of this ‘racist child grooming ‘ political party before, do you think she should be denied the chance to face justice because she is a Muslim (asking because you randomly mentioned that if she was Jewish I would have different views) |
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"Yes, she should return, be tried in court , take and accept any punishment she is given
Another lefty socialist supporting vile terrorists. I bet if Shamima Begum was Jewish you would be slatting her!
PMSL, your a bit tetchy? She broke the law, she should be brought back to face the consequences, how is that ‘supporting terrorists’?
So your not denying your a socialist lefty eh?
Does the same apply to Tory Blair, should he be charged with war crimes???
He broke the Law!
I would class myself as left off centre , are you a capitalist ‘righty’ ? When did Tony Blair have his British citizenship removed?
Who’s getting tetchy now? Were talking about not supporting terrorists, and given them a voice.Remember Begum supported the Manchester bombing, youngest victim an 8 year old child.
Lefty of centre lol. You still support a racist child grooming party.
I am not sure if you can read or not but I want her to return so she can face justice , I haven’t heard of this ‘racist child grooming ‘ political party before, do you think she should be denied the chance to face justice because she is a Muslim (asking because you randomly mentioned that if she was Jewish I would have different views) "
the justice for me is not coming back if she was a he we wouldn’t even know the name |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Yes, she should return, be tried in court , take and accept any punishment she is given
Another lefty socialist supporting vile terrorists. I bet if Shamima Begum was Jewish you would be slatting her!
PMSL, your a bit tetchy? She broke the law, she should be brought back to face the consequences, how is that ‘supporting terrorists’?
So your not denying your a socialist lefty eh?
Does the same apply to Tory Blair, should he be charged with war crimes???
He broke the Law!
Research the political party you support!
I would class myself as left off centre , are you a capitalist ‘righty’ ? When did Tony Blair have his British citizenship removed?
Who’s getting tetchy now? Were talking about not supporting terrorists, and given them a voice.Remember Begum supported the Manchester bombing, youngest victim an 8 year old child.
Lefty of centre lol. You still support a racist child grooming party.
I am not sure if you can read or not but I want her to return so she can face justice , I haven’t heard of this ‘racist child grooming ‘ political party before, do you think she should be denied the chance to face justice because she is a Muslim (asking because you randomly mentioned that if she was Jewish I would have different views) "
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Yes, she should return, be tried in court , take and accept any punishment she is given
Another lefty socialist supporting vile terrorists. I bet if Shamima Begum was Jewish you would be slatting her!
PMSL, your a bit tetchy? She broke the law, she should be brought back to face the consequences, how is that ‘supporting terrorists’?
So your not denying your a socialist lefty eh?
Does the same apply to Tory Blair, should he be charged with war crimes???
He broke the Law!
Research the political party you support!
I would class myself as left off centre , are you a capitalist ‘righty’ ? When did Tony Blair have his British citizenship removed?
Who’s getting tetchy now? Were talking about not supporting terrorists, and given them a voice.Remember Begum supported the Manchester bombing, youngest victim an 8 year old child.
Lefty of centre lol. You still support a racist child grooming party.
I am not sure if you can read or not but I want her to return so she can face justice , I haven’t heard of this ‘racist child grooming ‘ political party before, do you think she should be denied the chance to face justice because she is a Muslim (asking because you randomly mentioned that if she was Jewish I would have different views) "
Research the political party you support! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Yes, she should return, be tried in court , take and accept any punishment she is given
Another lefty socialist supporting vile terrorists. I bet if Shamima Begum was Jewish you would be slatting her!
PMSL, your a bit tetchy? She broke the law, she should be brought back to face the consequences, how is that ‘supporting terrorists’?
So your not denying your a socialist lefty eh?
Does the same apply to Tory Blair, should he be charged with war crimes???
He broke the Law!
Research the political party you support!
I would class myself as left off centre , are you a capitalist ‘righty’ ? When did Tony Blair have his British citizenship removed?
Who’s getting tetchy now? Were talking about not supporting terrorists, and given them a voice.Remember Begum supported the Manchester bombing, youngest victim an 8 year old child.
Lefty of centre lol. You still support a racist child grooming party.
I am not sure if you can read or not but I want her to return so she can face justice , I haven’t heard of this ‘racist child grooming ‘ political party before, do you think she should be denied the chance to face justice because she is a Muslim (asking because you randomly mentioned that if she was Jewish I would have different views)
Research the political party you support!"
I have, do you think she should be denied the chance to face justice because she is a Muslim? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Yes, she should return, be tried in court , take and accept any punishment she is given
Another lefty socialist supporting vile terrorists. I bet if Shamima Begum was Jewish you would be slatting her!
PMSL, your a bit tetchy? She broke the law, she should be brought back to face the consequences, how is that ‘supporting terrorists’?
So your not denying your a socialist lefty eh?
Does the same apply to Tory Blair, should he be charged with war crimes???
He broke the Law!
Research the political party you support!
I would class myself as left off centre , are you a capitalist ‘righty’ ? When did Tony Blair have his British citizenship removed?
Who’s getting tetchy now? Were talking about not supporting terrorists, and given them a voice.Remember Begum supported the Manchester bombing, youngest victim an 8 year old child.
Lefty of centre lol. You still support a racist child grooming party.
I am not sure if you can read or not but I want her to return so she can face justice , I haven’t heard of this ‘racist child grooming ‘ political party before, do you think she should be denied the chance to face justice because she is a Muslim (asking because you randomly mentioned that if she was Jewish I would have different views)
Research the political party you support!
I have, do you think she should be denied the chance to face justice because she is a Muslim? "
Typical Labour supporter when someone challenges your opinion you play the race card.
You do know the only two political parties in the UK investigated for being racist are the BNP and the party you support Labour. So the question should be are you a racist???
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Yes, she should return, be tried in court , take and accept any punishment she is given
Another lefty socialist supporting vile terrorists. I bet if Shamima Begum was Jewish you would be slatting her!
PMSL, your a bit tetchy? She broke the law, she should be brought back to face the consequences, how is that ‘supporting terrorists’?
So your not denying your a socialist lefty eh?
Does the same apply to Tory Blair, should he be charged with war crimes???
He broke the Law!
Research the political party you support!
I would class myself as left off centre , are you a capitalist ‘righty’ ? When did Tony Blair have his British citizenship removed?
Who’s getting tetchy now? Were talking about not supporting terrorists, and given them a voice.Remember Begum supported the Manchester bombing, youngest victim an 8 year old child.
Lefty of centre lol. You still support a racist child grooming party.
I am not sure if you can read or not but I want her to return so she can face justice , I haven’t heard of this ‘racist child grooming ‘ political party before, do you think she should be denied the chance to face justice because she is a Muslim (asking because you randomly mentioned that if she was Jewish I would have different views)
Research the political party you support!
I have, do you think she should be denied the chance to face justice because she is a Muslim?
Typical Labour supporter when someone challenges your opinion you play the race card.
You do know the only two political parties in the UK investigated for being racist are the BNP and the party you support Labour. So the question should be are you a racist???
"
I voted for the Lib Dem’s at the last election, I will ask again, do you think she should be denied the chance to face justice because she is a Muslim, btw, research the party you support |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes?? "
why should the uk pay to keep her ? its probably like jail where she is otherwise she wouldn't be begging to come back. |
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"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes?? "
no because that’s what she wants jail for her would be a doddle let the bitch suffer Why do you think she wants to come back and face justice ? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes?? why should the uk pay to keep her ? its probably like jail where she is otherwise she wouldn't be begging to come back."
Fair enough, I guess the cost is the main concern for some , I would like her to face justice, get the punishment she deserves , |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree "
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though, |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes?? no because that’s what she wants jail for her would be a doddle let the bitch suffer Why do you think she wants to come back and face justice ?"
I don’t know, why do you think she is being denied that chance? |
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"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though, "
if she wants to come back and face justice here she can’t think it’s much of a punishment can she |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though, if she wants to come back and face justice here she can’t think it’s much of a punishment can she "
I honestly don’t know, maybe she thinks she is innocent? Unfortunately until she faces trial and is charged she will always claim she is innocent |
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By *adetMan
over a year ago
Ipswich |
"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though, "
Oh I think time in a Syrian prison will punishment enough |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though,
Oh I think time in a Syrian prison will punishment enough "
Let hope she gets what she deserves in Syria then |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though, if she wants to come back and face justice here she can’t think it’s much of a punishment can she
I honestly don’t know, maybe she thinks she is innocent? Unfortunately until she faces trial and is charged she will always claim she is innocent "
She can claim anything she likes unlike the poor people who had their heads cut off by her mates she was catering for. |
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By *adetMan
over a year ago
Ipswich |
"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though,
Oh I think time in a Syrian prison will punishment enough
Let hope she gets what she deserves in Syria then "
Correct. Plenty of Brits are in prison abroad for far less than what she did |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though, if she wants to come back and face justice here she can’t think it’s much of a punishment can she
I honestly don’t know, maybe she thinks she is innocent? Unfortunately until she faces trial and is charged she will always claim she is innocent She can claim anything she likes unlike the poor people who had their heads cut off by her mates she was catering for."
Yep, and I think she is guilty but I want to see her be convicted and punished , at present that isn’t happening |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though, if she wants to come back and face justice here she can’t think it’s much of a punishment can she
I honestly don’t know, maybe she thinks she is innocent? Unfortunately until she faces trial and is charged she will always claim she is innocent She can claim anything she likes unlike the poor people who had their heads cut off by her mates she was catering for.
Yep, and I think she is guilty but I want to see her be convicted and punished , at present that isn’t happening "
maybe being in purgatory is worse than actually being convicted. |
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"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though, if she wants to come back and face justice here she can’t think it’s much of a punishment can she
I honestly don’t know, maybe she thinks she is innocent? Unfortunately until she faces trial and is charged she will always claim she is innocent She can claim anything she likes unlike the poor people who had their heads cut off by her mates she was catering for.
Yep, and I think she is guilty but I want to see her be convicted and punished , at present that isn’t happening "
id say it is she’s not getting what she wants would you rather her be in jail in tne U.K. or syria? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though, if she wants to come back and face justice here she can’t think it’s much of a punishment can she
I honestly don’t know, maybe she thinks she is innocent? Unfortunately until she faces trial and is charged she will always claim she is innocent She can claim anything she likes unlike the poor people who had their heads cut off by her mates she was catering for.
Yep, and I think she is guilty but I want to see her be convicted and punished , at present that isn’t happening id say it is she’s not getting what she wants would you rather her be in jail in tne U.K. or syria?"
Either, I can’t see her being sent to jail in Syria though , plus I bet she could incriminate and help convict a number of people in the UK |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though, if she wants to come back and face justice here she can’t think it’s much of a punishment can she
I honestly don’t know, maybe she thinks she is innocent? Unfortunately until she faces trial and is charged she will always claim she is innocent She can claim anything she likes unlike the poor people who had their heads cut off by her mates she was catering for.
Yep, and I think she is guilty but I want to see her be convicted and punished , at present that isn’t happening id say it is she’s not getting what she wants would you rather her be in jail in tne U.K. or syria?
Either, I can’t see her being sent to jail in Syria though , plus I bet she could incriminate and help convict a number of people in the UK "
I doubt it she would have grassed them up before now to get back. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though, if she wants to come back and face justice here she can’t think it’s much of a punishment can she
I honestly don’t know, maybe she thinks she is innocent? Unfortunately until she faces trial and is charged she will always claim she is innocent She can claim anything she likes unlike the poor people who had their heads cut off by her mates she was catering for.
Yep, and I think she is guilty but I want to see her be convicted and punished , at present that isn’t happening id say it is she’s not getting what she wants would you rather her be in jail in tne U.K. or syria?
Either, I can’t see her being sent to jail in Syria though , plus I bet she could incriminate and help convict a number of people in the UK I doubt it she would have grassed them up before now to get back."
Maybe, but let’s be honest, after what has happened in Afghanistan this will be happening more often and the people who helped her will be free to help others |
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"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though, if she wants to come back and face justice here she can’t think it’s much of a punishment can she
I honestly don’t know, maybe she thinks she is innocent? Unfortunately until she faces trial and is charged she will always claim she is innocent She can claim anything she likes unlike the poor people who had their heads cut off by her mates she was catering for.
Yep, and I think she is guilty but I want to see her be convicted and punished , at present that isn’t happening id say it is she’s not getting what she wants would you rather her be in jail in tne U.K. or syria?
Either, I can’t see her being sent to jail in Syria though , plus I bet she could incriminate and help convict a number of people in the UK "
id bet she knows nothing mi6 don’t already know now either so the U.K. tax payer picking up the bill for her going to jail is fine woth you |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though, if she wants to come back and face justice here she can’t think it’s much of a punishment can she
I honestly don’t know, maybe she thinks she is innocent? Unfortunately until she faces trial and is charged she will always claim she is innocent She can claim anything she likes unlike the poor people who had their heads cut off by her mates she was catering for.
Yep, and I think she is guilty but I want to see her be convicted and punished , at present that isn’t happening id say it is she’s not getting what she wants would you rather her be in jail in tne U.K. or syria?
Either, I can’t see her being sent to jail in Syria though , plus I bet she could incriminate and help convict a number of people in the UK id bet she knows nothing mi6 don’t already know now either so the U.K. tax payer picking up the bill for her going to jail is fine woth you "
So it’s all about the cost? Are you happy with her to walk free? Not face justice? Let’s hope she gets punished in Syria but I just can’t see it happening |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though, if she wants to come back and face justice here she can’t think it’s much of a punishment can she
I honestly don’t know, maybe she thinks she is innocent? Unfortunately until she faces trial and is charged she will always claim she is innocent She can claim anything she likes unlike the poor people who had their heads cut off by her mates she was catering for.
Yep, and I think she is guilty but I want to see her be convicted and punished , at present that isn’t happening id say it is she’s not getting what she wants would you rather her be in jail in tne U.K. or syria?
Either, I can’t see her being sent to jail in Syria though , plus I bet she could incriminate and help convict a number of people in the UK id bet she knows nothing mi6 don’t already know now either so the U.K. tax payer picking up the bill for her going to jail is fine woth you
So it’s all about the cost? Are you happy with her to walk free? Not face justice? Let’s hope she gets punished in Syria but I just can’t see it happening "
My oh my “fab tit tic” on one today. Not very liberal.
Tetchy or what. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though, if she wants to come back and face justice here she can’t think it’s much of a punishment can she
I honestly don’t know, maybe she thinks she is innocent? Unfortunately until she faces trial and is charged she will always claim she is innocent She can claim anything she likes unlike the poor people who had their heads cut off by her mates she was catering for.
Yep, and I think she is guilty but I want to see her be convicted and punished , at present that isn’t happening id say it is she’s not getting what she wants would you rather her be in jail in tne U.K. or syria?
Either, I can’t see her being sent to jail in Syria though , plus I bet she could incriminate and help convict a number of people in the UK id bet she knows nothing mi6 don’t already know now either so the U.K. tax payer picking up the bill for her going to jail is fine woth you
So it’s all about the cost? Are you happy with her to walk free? Not face justice? Let’s hope she gets punished in Syria but I just can’t see it happening
My oh my “fab tit tic” on one today. Not very liberal.
Tetchy or what. "
Everything ok? You seem obsessed with my posts |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though, if she wants to come back and face justice here she can’t think it’s much of a punishment can she
I honestly don’t know, maybe she thinks she is innocent? Unfortunately until she faces trial and is charged she will always claim she is innocent She can claim anything she likes unlike the poor people who had their heads cut off by her mates she was catering for.
Yep, and I think she is guilty but I want to see her be convicted and punished , at present that isn’t happening id say it is she’s not getting what she wants would you rather her be in jail in tne U.K. or syria?
Either, I can’t see her being sent to jail in Syria though , plus I bet she could incriminate and help convict a number of people in the UK id bet she knows nothing mi6 don’t already know now either so the U.K. tax payer picking up the bill for her going to jail is fine woth you
So it’s all about the cost? Are you happy with her to walk free? Not face justice? Let’s hope she gets punished in Syria but I just can’t see it happening
My oh my “fab tit tic” on one today. Not very liberal.
Tetchy or what.
Everything ok? You seem obsessed with my posts "
You seem obsessed in your support of terrorist. |
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|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though, if she wants to come back and face justice here she can’t think it’s much of a punishment can she
I honestly don’t know, maybe she thinks she is innocent? Unfortunately until she faces trial and is charged she will always claim she is innocent She can claim anything she likes unlike the poor people who had their heads cut off by her mates she was catering for.
Yep, and I think she is guilty but I want to see her be convicted and punished , at present that isn’t happening id say it is she’s not getting what she wants would you rather her be in jail in tne U.K. or syria?
Either, I can’t see her being sent to jail in Syria though , plus I bet she could incriminate and help convict a number of people in the UK id bet she knows nothing mi6 don’t already know now either so the U.K. tax payer picking up the bill for her going to jail is fine woth you
So it’s all about the cost? Are you happy with her to walk free? Not face justice? Let’s hope she gets punished in Syria but I just can’t see it happening
My oh my “fab tit tic” on one today. Not very liberal.
Tetchy or what.
Everything ok? You seem obsessed with my posts
You seem obsessed in your support of terrorist. "
There you go again, creepy behaviour, |
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|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though, if she wants to come back and face justice here she can’t think it’s much of a punishment can she
I honestly don’t know, maybe she thinks she is innocent? Unfortunately until she faces trial and is charged she will always claim she is innocent She can claim anything she likes unlike the poor people who had their heads cut off by her mates she was catering for.
Yep, and I think she is guilty but I want to see her be convicted and punished , at present that isn’t happening id say it is she’s not getting what she wants would you rather her be in jail in tne U.K. or syria?
Either, I can’t see her being sent to jail in Syria though , plus I bet she could incriminate and help convict a number of people in the UK id bet she knows nothing mi6 don’t already know now either so the U.K. tax payer picking up the bill for her going to jail is fine woth you
So it’s all about the cost? Are you happy with her to walk free? Not face justice? Let’s hope she gets punished in Syria but I just can’t see it happening
My oh my “fab tit tic” on one today. Not very liberal.
Tetchy or what.
Everything ok? You seem obsessed with my posts
You seem obsessed in your support of terrorist.
There you go again, creepy behaviour, "
Personal insults??
Lost the argument when you have to refer to that. |
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|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though, if she wants to come back and face justice here she can’t think it’s much of a punishment can she
I honestly don’t know, maybe she thinks she is innocent? Unfortunately until she faces trial and is charged she will always claim she is innocent She can claim anything she likes unlike the poor people who had their heads cut off by her mates she was catering for.
Yep, and I think she is guilty but I want to see her be convicted and punished , at present that isn’t happening id say it is she’s not getting what she wants would you rather her be in jail in tne U.K. or syria?
Either, I can’t see her being sent to jail in Syria though , plus I bet she could incriminate and help convict a number of people in the UK id bet she knows nothing mi6 don’t already know now either so the U.K. tax payer picking up the bill for her going to jail is fine woth you
So it’s all about the cost? Are you happy with her to walk free? Not face justice? Let’s hope she gets punished in Syria but I just can’t see it happening
My oh my “fab tit tic” on one today. Not very liberal.
Tetchy or what.
Everything ok? You seem obsessed with my posts
You seem obsessed in your support of terrorist.
There you go again, creepy behaviour,
Personal insults??
Lost the argument when you have to refer to that. "
What argument are you referring to? I am getting bored with your incoherent ramblings so you will be glad to know that I will now be ignoring you |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though, if she wants to come back and face justice here she can’t think it’s much of a punishment can she
I honestly don’t know, maybe she thinks she is innocent? Unfortunately until she faces trial and is charged she will always claim she is innocent She can claim anything she likes unlike the poor people who had their heads cut off by her mates she was catering for.
Yep, and I think she is guilty but I want to see her be convicted and punished , at present that isn’t happening id say it is she’s not getting what she wants would you rather her be in jail in tne U.K. or syria?
Either, I can’t see her being sent to jail in Syria though , plus I bet she could incriminate and help convict a number of people in the UK id bet she knows nothing mi6 don’t already know now either so the U.K. tax payer picking up the bill for her going to jail is fine woth you
So it’s all about the cost? Are you happy with her to walk free? Not face justice? Let’s hope she gets punished in Syria but I just can’t see it happening
My oh my “fab tit tic” on one today. Not very liberal.
Tetchy or what.
Everything ok? You seem obsessed with my posts
You seem obsessed in your support of terrorist.
There you go again, creepy behaviour,
Personal insults??
Lost the argument when you have to refer to that.
What argument are you referring to? I am getting bored with your incoherent ramblings so you will be glad to know that I will now be ignoring you "
Awwww ok never mind. Your probably too busy anyway, chatting to all your terrorist mates. |
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"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though, if she wants to come back and face justice here she can’t think it’s much of a punishment can she
I honestly don’t know, maybe she thinks she is innocent? Unfortunately until she faces trial and is charged she will always claim she is innocent She can claim anything she likes unlike the poor people who had their heads cut off by her mates she was catering for.
Yep, and I think she is guilty but I want to see her be convicted and punished , at present that isn’t happening id say it is she’s not getting what she wants would you rather her be in jail in tne U.K. or syria?
Either, I can’t see her being sent to jail in Syria though , plus I bet she could incriminate and help convict a number of people in the UK id bet she knows nothing mi6 don’t already know now either so the U.K. tax payer picking up the bill for her going to jail is fine woth you
So it’s all about the cost? Are you happy with her to walk free? Not face justice? Let’s hope she gets punished in Syria but I just can’t see it happening "
she wants to come back so not letting the bitch back is punishment I’d be over noon if she went to jail in Syria but it won’t Happen mate |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Never
Don’t you want to see her face justice and go to jail for her crimes??
I do but in the country where her crimes were committed. I think the families of her victims would agree
True, she shouldn’t be ‘allowed’ to avoid punishment though, if she wants to come back and face justice here she can’t think it’s much of a punishment can she
I honestly don’t know, maybe she thinks she is innocent? Unfortunately until she faces trial and is charged she will always claim she is innocent She can claim anything she likes unlike the poor people who had their heads cut off by her mates she was catering for.
Yep, and I think she is guilty but I want to see her be convicted and punished , at present that isn’t happening id say it is she’s not getting what she wants would you rather her be in jail in tne U.K. or syria?
Either, I can’t see her being sent to jail in Syria though , plus I bet she could incriminate and help convict a number of people in the UK id bet she knows nothing mi6 don’t already know now either so the U.K. tax payer picking up the bill for her going to jail is fine woth you
So it’s all about the cost? Are you happy with her to walk free? Not face justice? Let’s hope she gets punished in Syria but I just can’t see it happening she wants to come back so not letting the bitch back is punishment I’d be over noon if she went to jail in Syria but it won’t Happen mate "
|
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If she had commited a crime in the UK, wouldn't the government want her to be returned to face justice? If not, I might just rob a few banks & be off overseas. I'm not saying what she did was right, but if she's classed as a criminal, then put her in court. |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"So your views on this subject please…"
She was 15 and groomed online.
She has had several children. All dead.
She is a British citizen.
Are people unforgiveable and unable to reform?
If not, then what's prison for? Shouldn't we go back to executing people for any crime whatsoever? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I'm still forming a view on this.
But where my mind is going is:
It's interesting there are threads on 15yo giving consent for jabs or to vote and it's split whether they have capacity. Yet this person is being condemned for decisions made at that age.
I'd need to know what her actions have been. While she is supporting a nasty cause, is that enough.
Have we taken away nationalities before and in all cases ? Is she being treated fairly or differently because she is newsworthy ?
Has she gone through the correct due process here? Probably links to the above but I fear we have a govenemnet run by headlines. And as it stands she has been found guilty of crimes by noone (I think).
Emotionally I feel uncomfortable that a problem made in the UK, with a UK citizen, is being made someone else's problem because we don't want to accept responsibility. There is something graating now much we will disown her while accepting the tennis player.
(I realise that not all people will have inconsistent views here. But I suspect some of us do conflict with out positions on things because that's what we humans tend to do!)
|
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
"So your views on this subject please…
She was 15 and groomed online.
She has had several children. All dead.
She is a British citizen.
Are people unforgiveable and unable to reform?
If not, then what's prison for? Shouldn't we go back to executing people for any crime whatsoever?"
Are you sure about the British citizenship? . I have not kept up with the story but last I heard her citizenship was revoked. I understand she wanted to fight that decision but did not hear that she managed to overturn it. If she has been successful then it will be difficult for the government to stop her returning. If she has not overturned it then for now she us not a British citizen. |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"So your views on this subject please…
She was 15 and groomed online.
She has had several children. All dead.
She is a British citizen.
Are people unforgiveable and unable to reform?
If not, then what's prison for? Shouldn't we go back to executing people for any crime whatsoever?
Are you sure about the British citizenship? . I have not kept up with the story but last I heard her citizenship was revoked. I understand she wanted to fight that decision but did not hear that she managed to overturn it. If she has been successful then it will be difficult for the government to stop her returning. If she has not overturned it then for now she us not a British citizen."
You've just expressed a paradox.
She is not a British citizen because her citizenship was revoked.
She has never been a citizen of another state, and it's illegal under international law to make someone stateless.
British law has ruled that she should be allowed to appeal her suspension of citizenship, but she is being prevented from doing so.
https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-53428191
"You can appeal in court against such a decision. Ms Begum did so, and the Court of Appeal ruled that she should be allowed to return to the UK to make her case because she could not do so from a dangerous camp in northern Syria.
However, the Home Office then argued allowing her to return would create "significant national security risks". The Supreme Court has now ruled the government was entitled to prevent Ms Begum from returning to the UK to fight her case - but it also ordered that the legal battle over her citizenship should be paused until she can find a way to take part in it."
"The UK has responsibilities under international law to avoid people being left stateless. But in February 2020, a tribunal ruled that removing Ms Begum's citizenship was lawful because she was "a citizen of Bangladesh by descent".
But Bangladesh has said that is not the case and she would not be allowed into the country."
None of this addresses any of the other points that I raised.
In fact, it's the least important. It's purely legalistic. |
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"Yes let's accept all terrorist back to the UK and hopefully they can have kids and claim benefits and we can pay for them all as they build their very own terrorist group and then we can all bitch why the government and Boris or Tony or whoever let it happen! Brilliant lol
I have a dream..... "
|
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
"So your views on this subject please…
She was 15 and groomed online.
She has had several children. All dead.
She is a British citizen.
Are people unforgiveable and unable to reform?
If not, then what's prison for? Shouldn't we go back to executing people for any crime whatsoever?
Are you sure about the British citizenship? . I have not kept up with the story but last I heard her citizenship was revoked. I understand she wanted to fight that decision but did not hear that she managed to overturn it. If she has been successful then it will be difficult for the government to stop her returning. If she has not overturned it then for now she us not a British citizen.
You've just expressed a paradox.
She is not a British citizen because her citizenship was revoked.
She has never been a citizen of another state, and it's illegal under international law to make someone stateless.
British law has ruled that she should be allowed to appeal her suspension of citizenship, but she is being prevented from doing so.
https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-53428191
"You can appeal in court against such a decision. Ms Begum did so, and the Court of Appeal ruled that she should be allowed to return to the UK to make her case because she could not do so from a dangerous camp in northern Syria.
However, the Home Office then argued allowing her to return would create "significant national security risks". The Supreme Court has now ruled the government was entitled to prevent Ms Begum from returning to the UK to fight her case - but it also ordered that the legal battle over her citizenship should be paused until she can find a way to take part in it."
"The UK has responsibilities under international law to avoid people being left stateless. But in February 2020, a tribunal ruled that removing Ms Begum's citizenship was lawful because she was "a citizen of Bangladesh by descent".
But Bangladesh has said that is not the case and she would not be allowed into the country."
None of this addresses any of the other points that I raised.
In fact, it's the least important. It's purely legalistic."
Well for me at least it's very important. If she is a British citizen then I think we a duty bound to bring her back to face justice. If she is not a British citizen then I'm not so sure. If she wins her appeal then for me she can come back. Your first post clearly said she was and second post indicates at this moment in time she is not. What justice she would face I do know but hope her age at the time is taken into consideration though that could work both ways for her I guess |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"So your views on this subject please…
She was 15 and groomed online.
She has had several children. All dead.
She is a British citizen.
Are people unforgiveable and unable to reform?
If not, then what's prison for? Shouldn't we go back to executing people for any crime whatsoever?
Are you sure about the British citizenship? . I have not kept up with the story but last I heard her citizenship was revoked. I understand she wanted to fight that decision but did not hear that she managed to overturn it. If she has been successful then it will be difficult for the government to stop her returning. If she has not overturned it then for now she us not a British citizen.
You've just expressed a paradox.
She is not a British citizen because her citizenship was revoked.
She has never been a citizen of another state, and it's illegal under international law to make someone stateless.
British law has ruled that she should be allowed to appeal her suspension of citizenship, but she is being prevented from doing so.
https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-53428191
"You can appeal in court against such a decision. Ms Begum did so, and the Court of Appeal ruled that she should be allowed to return to the UK to make her case because she could not do so from a dangerous camp in northern Syria.
However, the Home Office then argued allowing her to return would create "significant national security risks". The Supreme Court has now ruled the government was entitled to prevent Ms Begum from returning to the UK to fight her case - but it also ordered that the legal battle over her citizenship should be paused until she can find a way to take part in it."
"The UK has responsibilities under international law to avoid people being left stateless. But in February 2020, a tribunal ruled that removing Ms Begum's citizenship was lawful because she was "a citizen of Bangladesh by descent".
But Bangladesh has said that is not the case and she would not be allowed into the country."
None of this addresses any of the other points that I raised.
In fact, it's the least important. It's purely legalistic.
Well for me at least it's very important. If she is a British citizen then I think we a duty bound to bring her back to face justice. If she is not a British citizen then I'm not so sure. If she wins her appeal then for me she can come back. Your first post clearly said she was and second post indicates at this moment in time she is not. What justice she would face I do know but hope her age at the time is taken into consideration though that could work both ways for her I guess"
They have made her stateless and denied her citizenship to avoid taking any responsibility.
That is very clear.
You think that the legal and bureaucratic argument is more important than if rehabilitation is possible?
More important than if people can change?
More important than the point of prison and justice?
The legal |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
If it was someone from another country who moved to the UK, then it makes sense for the UK to keep her out. She is someone who grew up here and came out of this system. I would say it's the UK's responsibility to take her in. At the same time, I very well understand the danger someone like her poses. So if she comes back, she must go straight to prison. Not even a single visit outside. I am not sure about the legal challenges with that though.
But the debates on the topic are funny. Right wingers who support deportation of criminals from other countries because they it's the responsibility of those countries are now washing their hands of a terrorist who grew up here. Liberals who say that deportation of criminals is wrong basing their arguments on various legal aspects suddenly don't care about law, but care more about which country they grew up in |
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
"So your views on this subject please…
She was 15 and groomed online.
She has had several children. All dead.
She is a British citizen.
Are people unforgiveable and unable to reform?
If not, then what's prison for? Shouldn't we go back to executing people for any crime whatsoever?
Are you sure about the British citizenship? . I have not kept up with the story but last I heard her citizenship was revoked. I understand she wanted to fight that decision but did not hear that she managed to overturn it. If she has been successful then it will be difficult for the government to stop her returning. If she has not overturned it then for now she us not a British citizen.
You've just expressed a paradox.
She is not a British citizen because her citizenship was revoked.
She has never been a citizen of another state, and it's illegal under international law to make someone stateless.
British law has ruled that she should be allowed to appeal her suspension of citizenship, but she is being prevented from doing so.
https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-53428191
"You can appeal in court against such a decision. Ms Begum did so, and the Court of Appeal ruled that she should be allowed to return to the UK to make her case because she could not do so from a dangerous camp in northern Syria.
However, the Home Office then argued allowing her to return would create "significant national security risks". The Supreme Court has now ruled the government was entitled to prevent Ms Begum from returning to the UK to fight her case - but it also ordered that the legal battle over her citizenship should be paused until she can find a way to take part in it."
"The UK has responsibilities under international law to avoid people being left stateless. But in February 2020, a tribunal ruled that removing Ms Begum's citizenship was lawful because she was "a citizen of Bangladesh by descent".
But Bangladesh has said that is not the case and she would not be allowed into the country."
None of this addresses any of the other points that I raised.
In fact, it's the least important. It's purely legalistic.
Well for me at least it's very important. If she is a British citizen then I think we a duty bound to bring her back to face justice. If she is not a British citizen then I'm not so sure. If she wins her appeal then for me she can come back. Your first post clearly said she was and second post indicates at this moment in time she is not. What justice she would face I do know but hope her age at the time is taken into consideration though that could work both ways for her I guess
They have made her stateless and denied her citizenship to avoid taking any responsibility.
That is very clear.
You think that the legal and bureaucratic argument is more important than if rehabilitation is possible?
More important than if people can change?
More important than the point of prison and justice?
The legal "
I think as said it depends on if she is a British citizen or not. If she is then I repeat we have a duty to bring her back and face justice, rehabilitation ectq. If not then I'm not so sure. Until that question is finalised the rest is just hypothetical. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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If she isn't a citizen doesn't the issue become one of "is it right to remove citizenship of someone in that way". Kinda feels like we are shutting our eyes because it's too hard a problem to deal with.
Given she grew up here, it feels difficult to kick her out and make her the world's problem. |
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"So your views on this subject please…
Hell NO !"
She made her bed she can lie in it.
I have no sympathy. What about the mothers who lost their children old and young to Isis.
She's sorry now, too late for sorry.
She technicaly ditched her Britishness when she dumped Britain to go there.
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"So your views on this subject please…
Hell NO !
She made her bed she can lie in it.
I have no sympathy. What about the mothers who lost their children old and young to Isis.
She's sorry now, too late for sorry.
She technicaly ditched her Britishness when she dumped Britain to go there.
"
So, fundamentally, a decision made at 15 years of age cannot be reversed?
What technicality did she ditch her "Britishness" at that age?
I have no sympathy for her, but I am quite attached to the rule of law and not making arbitrary decisions based on sympathy or lack there of.
I don't want to know how a parent feels to lose their child. I believe that it's happened to her too. I wonder if her grief is less?
It's dangerous to think of even the most horrible individuals as human. You might end up treating them fairly regardless of their own behaviour and personality defects. Where would the legal system be if that happened?  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"So your views on this subject please…
Hell NO !
She made her bed she can lie in it.
I have no sympathy. What about the mothers who lost their children old and young to Isis.
She's sorry now, too late for sorry.
She technicaly ditched her Britishness when she dumped Britain to go there.
So, fundamentally, a decision made at 15 years of age cannot be reversed?
What technicality did she ditch her "Britishness" at that age?
I have no sympathy for her, but I am quite attached to the rule of law and not making arbitrary decisions based on sympathy or lack there of.
I don't want to know how a parent feels to lose their child. I believe that it's happened to her too. I wonder if her grief is less?
It's dangerous to think of even the most horrible individuals as human. You might end up treating them fairly regardless of their own behaviour and personality defects. Where would the legal system be if that happened? "
But you were arguing in your previous post that that we need to think above law and see if rehabilitation is possible. Now you are attached to the rule of law? |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"So your views on this subject please…
Hell NO !
She made her bed she can lie in it.
I have no sympathy. What about the mothers who lost their children old and young to Isis.
She's sorry now, too late for sorry.
She technicaly ditched her Britishness when she dumped Britain to go there.
So, fundamentally, a decision made at 15 years of age cannot be reversed?
What technicality did she ditch her "Britishness" at that age?
I have no sympathy for her, but I am quite attached to the rule of law and not making arbitrary decisions based on sympathy or lack there of.
I don't want to know how a parent feels to lose their child. I believe that it's happened to her too. I wonder if her grief is less?
It's dangerous to think of even the most horrible individuals as human. You might end up treating them fairly regardless of their own behaviour and personality defects. Where would the legal system be if that happened?
But you were arguing in your previous post that that we need to think above law and see if rehabilitation is possible. Now you are attached to the rule of law?"
Rehabilitation is not "above law". Where was that said or implied?
It is an implicit assumption in law that when you are tried and imprisoned and releases, then you have paid your debt and continue about your life without prejudice.
So, again to you, is it possible for someone to be rehabilitated and to change their views and behaviour?
Does someone's actions at 15 years old define the rest of their life? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"So your views on this subject please…
Hell NO !
She made her bed she can lie in it.
I have no sympathy. What about the mothers who lost their children old and young to Isis.
She's sorry now, too late for sorry.
She technicaly ditched her Britishness when she dumped Britain to go there.
So, fundamentally, a decision made at 15 years of age cannot be reversed?
What technicality did she ditch her "Britishness" at that age?
I have no sympathy for her, but I am quite attached to the rule of law and not making arbitrary decisions based on sympathy or lack there of.
I don't want to know how a parent feels to lose their child. I believe that it's happened to her too. I wonder if her grief is less?
It's dangerous to think of even the most horrible individuals as human. You might end up treating them fairly regardless of their own behaviour and personality defects. Where would the legal system be if that happened?
But you were arguing in your previous post that that we need to think above law and see if rehabilitation is possible. Now you are attached to the rule of law?
Rehabilitation is not "above law". Where was that said or implied?
It is an implicit assumption in law that when you are tried and imprisoned and releases, then you have paid your debt and continue about your life without prejudice.
So, again to you, is it possible for someone to be rehabilitated and to change their views and behaviour?
Does someone's actions at 15 years old define the rest of their life?"
15 years old? She was part of ISIS and supported it for quite sometime even after she became an adult. It's only after her own life became crap, she came into this "realisation" that joining ISIS was a mistake. Rehabilitation itself is not even close to perfect. Even the country with one of the best rehabilitation policy(Norway) had a recidivism rate of 20%. For most other countries, it's over 30%. Would you rather risk the lives of innocents by throwing the dice on an ISIS terrorist?
Anyway, that's not my concern here and I already mentioned in my post that she had to be taken back but must go to jail directly. My problem is with your arguments
In one post you said this:
"
You think that the legal and bureaucratic argument is more important than if rehabilitation is possible?
"
And in your very next post you said this:
"
I have no sympathy for her, but I am quite attached to the rule of law and not making arbitrary decisions based on sympathy or lack there of.
"
If you are very attached to rule of law, this is just a matter of whether Shamima Begum's citizenship cancellation is legal or not. If we need to think above law, we should not stop with rehabilitation. We should also think about people's feeling of safety and sentiments. You can't use law when you need it and ditch it when you don't need it.
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"So your views on this subject please…
Hell NO !
She made her bed she can lie in it.
I have no sympathy. What about the mothers who lost their children old and young to Isis.
She's sorry now, too late for sorry.
She technicaly ditched her Britishness when she dumped Britain to go there.
So, fundamentally, a decision made at 15 years of age cannot be reversed?
What technicality did she ditch her "Britishness" at that age?
I have no sympathy for her, but I am quite attached to the rule of law and not making arbitrary decisions based on sympathy or lack there of.
I don't want to know how a parent feels to lose their child. I believe that it's happened to her too. I wonder if her grief is less?
It's dangerous to think of even the most horrible individuals as human. You might end up treating them fairly regardless of their own behaviour and personality defects. Where would the legal system be if that happened?
But you were arguing in your previous post that that we need to think above law and see if rehabilitation is possible. Now you are attached to the rule of law?
Rehabilitation is not "above law". Where was that said or implied?
It is an implicit assumption in law that when you are tried and imprisoned and releases, then you have paid your debt and continue about your life without prejudice.
So, again to you, is it possible for someone to be rehabilitated and to change their views and behaviour?
Does someone's actions at 15 years old define the rest of their life?
15 years old? She was part of ISIS and supported it for quite sometime even after she became an adult. It's only after her own life became crap, she came into this "realisation" that joining ISIS was a mistake. Rehabilitation itself is not even close to perfect. Even the country with one of the best rehabilitation policy(Norway) had a recidivism rate of 20%. For most other countries, it's over 30%. Would you rather risk the lives of innocents by throwing the dice on an ISIS terrorist?
Anyway, that's not my concern here and I already mentioned in my post that she had to be taken back but must go to jail directly. My problem is with your arguments
In one post you said this:
You think that the legal and bureaucratic argument is more important than if rehabilitation is possible?
And in your very next post you said this:
I have no sympathy for her, but I am quite attached to the rule of law and not making arbitrary decisions based on sympathy or lack there of.
If you are very attached to rule of law, this is just a matter of whether Shamima Begum's citizenship cancellation is legal or not. If we need to think above law, we should not stop with rehabilitation. We should also think about people's feeling of safety and sentiments. You can't use law when you need it and ditch it when you don't need it.
"
She made a decision at 15 and then spent her time living in hate.
Is it possible for her to change? For anyone to? Have you met and spoken to her? What do you base your opinions her on?
A legal technicality is not the same as application of the law. Her citizenship has been removed without another to take its place (illegal in itself) and her ability to appeal or defend that according to the law has been curtailed. The rule of law is not being applied.
So all criminals should stay in prison permanently? That would make people feel safer, right? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
She made a decision at 15 and then spent her time living in hate.
Is it possible for her to change? For anyone to? Have you met and spoken to her? What do you base your opinions her on?
"
Even her own father said a couple of years ago that cancellation of her citizenship was correct and that his daughter does not show any remorse. What evidence do you have to prove that she was living in hate as soon as she went there? She was an enforcer in ISIL's morality police and worked on recruiting young women. I don't see any hate of her decision there. Where is that coming from?
"
A legal technicality is not the same as application of the law. Her citizenship has been removed without another to take its place (illegal in itself) and her ability to appeal or defend that according to the law has been curtailed. The rule of law is not being applied.
"
Legal technicalities are same as application of law. What's the difference there? There are multiple arguments about whether her citizenship cancellation is valid or not. I respect your views too. Leroy was arguing about it with you. But instead of arguing legalities, you side-stepped by bringing emotional arguments about rehabilitation while ignoring the citizenship matter as a "legal technicalities".
"
So all criminals should stay in prison permanently? That would make people feel safer, right?"
Depends on the crime. If it's a robbery or any other petty crime, we could try rehabilitation because recidivism is not going to affect innocent people as much. Horrible criminals like the ones involved in r*pes, murders and terrorism on the other hand need to be carefully dealt with. Their sentences should be long enough. That would obviously make people safer. Even the maths check out. |
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By *estivalMan
over a year ago
borehamwood |
"So your views on this subject please…
Hell NO !
She made her bed she can lie in it.
I have no sympathy. What about the mothers who lost their children old and young to Isis.
She's sorry now, too late for sorry.
She technicaly ditched her Britishness when she dumped Britain to go there.
So, fundamentally, a decision made at 15 years of age cannot be reversed?
What technicality did she ditch her "Britishness" at that age?
I have no sympathy for her, but I am quite attached to the rule of law and not making arbitrary decisions based on sympathy or lack there of.
I don't want to know how a parent feels to lose their child. I believe that it's happened to her too. I wonder if her grief is less?
It's dangerous to think of even the most horrible individuals as human. You might end up treating them fairly regardless of their own behaviour and personality defects. Where would the legal system be if that happened?
But you were arguing in your previous post that that we need to think above law and see if rehabilitation is possible. Now you are attached to the rule of law?
Rehabilitation is not "above law". Where was that said or implied?
It is an implicit assumption in law that when you are tried and imprisoned and releases, then you have paid your debt and continue about your life without prejudice.
So, again to you, is it possible for someone to be rehabilitated and to change their views and behaviour?
Does someone's actions at 15 years old define the rest of their life?
15 years old? She was part of ISIS and supported it for quite sometime even after she became an adult. It's only after her own life became crap, she came into this "realisation" that joining ISIS was a mistake. Rehabilitation itself is not even close to perfect. Even the country with one of the best rehabilitation policy(Norway) had a recidivism rate of 20%. For most other countries, it's over 30%. Would you rather risk the lives of innocents by throwing the dice on an ISIS terrorist?
Anyway, that's not my concern here and I already mentioned in my post that she had to be taken back but must go to jail directly. My problem is with your arguments
In one post you said this:
You think that the legal and bureaucratic argument is more important than if rehabilitation is possible?
And in your very next post you said this:
I have no sympathy for her, but I am quite attached to the rule of law and not making arbitrary decisions based on sympathy or lack there of.
If you are very attached to rule of law, this is just a matter of whether Shamima Begum's citizenship cancellation is legal or not. If we need to think above law, we should not stop with rehabilitation. We should also think about people's feeling of safety and sentiments. You can't use law when you need it and ditch it when you don't need it.
She made a decision at 15 and then spent her time living in hate.
Is it possible for her to change? For anyone to? Have you met and spoken to her? What do you base your opinions her on?
A legal technicality is not the same as application of the law. Her citizenship has been removed without another to take its place (illegal in itself) and her ability to appeal or defend that according to the law has been curtailed. The rule of law is not being applied.
So all criminals should stay in prison permanently? That would make people feel safer, right?"
have you met and spoken to her easy? What do you base your opinion of her on?feelings? Or do you think everyone can change like someone else pointed out only reason she wants back to the u.k is because it went tits up in syria for her and her gang of misfits |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"
She made a decision at 15 and then spent her time living in hate.
Is it possible for her to change? For anyone to? Have you met and spoken to her? What do you base your opinions her on?
Even her own father said a couple of years ago that cancellation of her citizenship was correct and that his daughter does not show any remorse. What evidence do you have to prove that she was living in hate as soon as she went there? She was an enforcer in ISIL's morality police and worked on recruiting young women. I don't see any hate of her decision there. Where is that coming from?
A legal technicality is not the same as application of the law. Her citizenship has been removed without another to take its place (illegal in itself) and her ability to appeal or defend that according to the law has been curtailed. The rule of law is not being applied.
Legal technicalities are same as application of law. What's the difference there? There are multiple arguments about whether her citizenship cancellation is valid or not. I respect your views too. Leroy was arguing about it with you. But instead of arguing legalities, you side-stepped by bringing emotional arguments about rehabilitation while ignoring the citizenship matter as a "legal technicalities".
So all criminals should stay in prison permanently? That would make people feel safer, right?
Depends on the crime. If it's a robbery or any other petty crime, we could try rehabilitation because recidivism is not going to affect innocent people as much. Horrible criminals like the ones involved in r*pes, murders and terrorism on the other hand need to be carefully dealt with. Their sentences should be long enough. That would obviously make people safer. Even the maths check out."
You avoided a very direct question so let me rephrase it: is possible for some people to change, but not this particular one?
So whilst living in ISIL she was living in a warm, humanitarian environment that would encourage her to rethink her behaviour and reconsider her views on right and wrong?
Her father actually said this:
“I am on the side of the government.
“I can’t say whether it is right or wrong, but if the law of the land says that it is correct to cancel her citizenship, then I agree.”
“If she at least admitted she made a mistake then I would feel sorry for her and other people would feel sorry for her,” he added. “But she does not accept her wrong.”
Do you have to feel sympathy for someone to treat them fairly?
The law of the land said that she should be able to appeal but she cannot return to the UK to make that appeal. So, does that mean that justice has been done? Rehabilitation is not an emotional argument at all. It is inherent in the criminal jusfice process, otherwise why have parole? Why aren't all convictions for serious crimes indeterminate?
If she feels no remorse then she should go to prison after she is allowed to appeal her citizenship.
So "horrible" criminals need to carefully dealt with, but this particular one should not?
I would feel safer if all criminals were permanently imprisoned or even executed. 100% certainty. Wouldn't you? Would that be the right thing to do?
Hundreds of other people who travelled to Syria have been allowed back simply because a very specific legal argument was available. She remains without any form of citizenship.
Where does your certainty come from that this person should be treated differently and is beyond redemption? |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"So your views on this subject please…
Hell NO !
She made her bed she can lie in it.
I have no sympathy. What about the mothers who lost their children old and young to Isis.
She's sorry now, too late for sorry.
She technicaly ditched her Britishness when she dumped Britain to go there.
So, fundamentally, a decision made at 15 years of age cannot be reversed?
What technicality did she ditch her "Britishness" at that age?
I have no sympathy for her, but I am quite attached to the rule of law and not making arbitrary decisions based on sympathy or lack there of.
I don't want to know how a parent feels to lose their child. I believe that it's happened to her too. I wonder if her grief is less?
It's dangerous to think of even the most horrible individuals as human. You might end up treating them fairly regardless of their own behaviour and personality defects. Where would the legal system be if that happened?
But you were arguing in your previous post that that we need to think above law and see if rehabilitation is possible. Now you are attached to the rule of law?
Rehabilitation is not "above law". Where was that said or implied?
It is an implicit assumption in law that when you are tried and imprisoned and releases, then you have paid your debt and continue about your life without prejudice.
So, again to you, is it possible for someone to be rehabilitated and to change their views and behaviour?
Does someone's actions at 15 years old define the rest of their life?
15 years old? She was part of ISIS and supported it for quite sometime even after she became an adult. It's only after her own life became crap, she came into this "realisation" that joining ISIS was a mistake. Rehabilitation itself is not even close to perfect. Even the country with one of the best rehabilitation policy(Norway) had a recidivism rate of 20%. For most other countries, it's over 30%. Would you rather risk the lives of innocents by throwing the dice on an ISIS terrorist?
Anyway, that's not my concern here and I already mentioned in my post that she had to be taken back but must go to jail directly. My problem is with your arguments
In one post you said this:
You think that the legal and bureaucratic argument is more important than if rehabilitation is possible?
And in your very next post you said this:
I have no sympathy for her, but I am quite attached to the rule of law and not making arbitrary decisions based on sympathy or lack there of.
If you are very attached to rule of law, this is just a matter of whether Shamima Begum's citizenship cancellation is legal or not. If we need to think above law, we should not stop with rehabilitation. We should also think about people's feeling of safety and sentiments. You can't use law when you need it and ditch it when you don't need it.
She made a decision at 15 and then spent her time living in hate.
Is it possible for her to change? For anyone to? Have you met and spoken to her? What do you base your opinions her on?
A legal technicality is not the same as application of the law. Her citizenship has been removed without another to take its place (illegal in itself) and her ability to appeal or defend that according to the law has been curtailed. The rule of law is not being applied.
So all criminals should stay in prison permanently? That would make people feel safer, right?have you met and spoken to her easy? What do you base your opinion of her on?feelings? Or do you think everyone can change like someone else pointed out only reason she wants back to the u.k is because it went tits up in syria for her and her gang of misfits"
Curious that you are also making as assumption that I approve of her in some way.
Nobody on this thread knlws her yet have absolute certainty that she should remain without citizenship in a refugee camp until her death after making a decision at 15 years old.
She is legally stripped of citizenship but also has the legal right to appeal but is denied from actually being able to do so.
Is that situation OK? Is it OK just for her or for anybody else?
If the only reason she wants back is because her terrorist life ended then so be it. She comes back, is tried and gets locked up.
Are we supposed to be have better than these people or not? Is arbitrary judgement of people a sign of weakness? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
You avoided a very direct question so let me rephrase it: is possible for some people to change, but not this particular one?
"
No one dodged any question. The answer is that the percentage of people who change after committing crimes is not that good. She is not any special.
"
So whilst living in ISIL she was living in a warm, humanitarian environment that would encourage her to rethink her behaviour and reconsider her views on right and wrong?
Her father actually said this:
“I am on the side of the government.
“I can’t say whether it is right or wrong, but if the law of the land says that it is correct to cancel her citizenship, then I agree.”
“If she at least admitted she made a mistake then I would feel sorry for her and other people would feel sorry for her,” he added. “But she does not accept her wrong.”
Do you have to feel sympathy for someone to treat them fairly?
"
Where does sympathy come from? You said that she made the wrong decision at 15. I said that she decided to stick to her wrong decision long after she was 15. She did not have any regret/remorse even after she became an adult which is what her father said. I just pointed out that your argument about her making wrong decision at a very young age does not apply here. Can you agree that?
"
The law of the land said that she should be able to appeal but she cannot return to the UK to make that appeal. So, does that mean that justice has been done?
"
Again, I said that she should come back to UK for the same reason. Not sure why you are arguing with me about that.
"
Rehabilitation is not an emotional argument at all. It is inherent in the criminal jusfice process, otherwise why have parole? Why aren't all convictions for serious crimes indeterminate?
"
Rehabilitation is not the only thing that's part of justice system. If rehabilitation is all that is, why do some crimes get a longer sentence while others get a shorter sentence? Different countries/cultures give different weightage of aspects like rehabilitation/punishment proportionate to crime/prison environment. In the end, they are all purely based on moral arguments with no single correct answer.
"
If she feels no remorse then she should go to prison after she is allowed to appeal her citizenship.
"
What happens during the appeals process? Does she stay in prison or live outside?
"
So "horrible" criminals need to carefully dealt with, but this particular one should not?
I would feel safer if all criminals were permanently imprisoned or even executed. 100% certainty. Wouldn't you? Would that be the right thing to do?
Hundreds of other people who travelled to Syria have been allowed back simply because a very specific legal argument was available. She remains without any form of citizenship.
Where does your certainty come from that this person should be treated differently and is beyond redemption?"
Yet again, my argument for this has always been that she should come back and must go straight to prison with the longest possible sentence. I never said she should be treated differently.
There are many problems with execution - Executing the wrong person, Judges feeling extreme pressure because someone's life depending on them etc.
On the other hand, longer sentences are a right middle ground. Most of these arguments in favour of trying to rehabilitate and release early even violent criminals, come from people who either have no kids to protect or the ones who live in much safer areas where they won't be affected by these criminals.
If you are the father of a 10 year old girl and a pedo who was just released moved right next to your house, would you feel happy about that? Would the family/friends of terror attacks be happy to know that the terrorists were released because they "may have been rehabilitated"?
It's easy to act altruistic when none of these affect you. Rehabilitation at this point is just an experiment. It has not proven successful enough to use it on violent criminals. |
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There are a lot more needy people who need Britains help before she does so she can get to the back of the que of billions, if at all.
I don`t believe an attempt to rehabilitate her would work.
It`s a sly attempt to creep her way out of the mess she got herself in. Britain should use her as an example for anyone thinking on a whim to join a ruthless terrorist organisation and shouldn`t pander to the likes of her.
Why doesn`t go to the Taliban and learn how they treat her sisters. |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"
You avoided a very direct question so let me rephrase it: is possible for some people to change, but not this particular one?
No one dodged any question. The answer is that the percentage of people who change after committing crimes is not that good. She is not any special.
So whilst living in ISIL she was living in a warm, humanitarian environment that would encourage her to rethink her behaviour and reconsider her views on right and wrong?
Her father actually said this:
“I am on the side of the government.
“I can’t say whether it is right or wrong, but if the law of the land says that it is correct to cancel her citizenship, then I agree.”
“If she at least admitted she made a mistake then I would feel sorry for her and other people would feel sorry for her,” he added. “But she does not accept her wrong.”
Do you have to feel sympathy for someone to treat them fairly?
Where does sympathy come from? You said that she made the wrong decision at 15. I said that she decided to stick to her wrong decision long after she was 15. She did not have any regret/remorse even after she became an adult which is what her father said. I just pointed out that your argument about her making wrong decision at a very young age does not apply here. Can you agree that?
The law of the land said that she should be able to appeal but she cannot return to the UK to make that appeal. So, does that mean that justice has been done?
Again, I said that she should come back to UK for the same reason. Not sure why you are arguing with me about that.
Rehabilitation is not an emotional argument at all. It is inherent in the criminal jusfice process, otherwise why have parole? Why aren't all convictions for serious crimes indeterminate?
Rehabilitation is not the only thing that's part of justice system. If rehabilitation is all that is, why do some crimes get a longer sentence while others get a shorter sentence? Different countries/cultures give different weightage of aspects like rehabilitation/punishment proportionate to crime/prison environment. In the end, they are all purely based on moral arguments with no single correct answer.
If she feels no remorse then she should go to prison after she is allowed to appeal her citizenship.
What happens during the appeals process? Does she stay in prison or live outside?
So "horrible" criminals need to carefully dealt with, but this particular one should not?
I would feel safer if all criminals were permanently imprisoned or even executed. 100% certainty. Wouldn't you? Would that be the right thing to do?
Hundreds of other people who travelled to Syria have been allowed back simply because a very specific legal argument was available. She remains without any form of citizenship.
Where does your certainty come from that this person should be treated differently and is beyond redemption?
Yet again, my argument for this has always been that she should come back and must go straight to prison with the longest possible sentence. I never said she should be treated differently.
There are many problems with execution - Executing the wrong person, Judges feeling extreme pressure because someone's life depending on them etc.
On the other hand, longer sentences are a right middle ground. Most of these arguments in favour of trying to rehabilitate and release early even violent criminals, come from people who either have no kids to protect or the ones who live in much safer areas where they won't be affected by these criminals.
If you are the father of a 10 year old girl and a pedo who was just released moved right next to your house, would you feel happy about that? Would the family/friends of terror attacks be happy to know that the terrorists were released because they "may have been rehabilitated"?
It's easy to act altruistic when none of these affect you. Rehabilitation at this point is just an experiment. It has not proven successful enough to use it on violent criminals."
She should come back and be tried, just like every other British citizen then? Except, uniquely, she has had her citizenship revoked. Different treatment.
You do think that rehabilitation is possible then? In fact, you provided information to confirm that. Do you think everyone should be given that opportunity then or not? Only single people without children think that it is worth it? Where did you get that information from?
I haven't said anyone should be released early unless there is something to indicate otherwise. So, no need to talk about children and terrorist victims.
What are you disagreeing with me about? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
She should come back and be tried, just like every other British citizen then? Except, uniquely, she has had her citizenship revoked. Different treatment.
You do think that rehabilitation is possible then? In fact, you provided information to confirm that. Do you think everyone should be given that opportunity then or not? Only single people without children think that it is worth it? Where did you get that information from?
I haven't said anyone should be released early unless there is something to indicate otherwise. So, no need to talk about children and terrorist victims.
What are you disagreeing with me about?"
Again, I think it was wrong to revoke her citizenship. But we know well enough that she was in ISIS. So, she should go to prison directly and then tried to see how long she should be there. She shouldn't be allowed to freely mingle with people.
"Rehabilitation is possible" is far away from "rehabilitation works". Would you take a covid vaccine if it's only 50% effective and there is a 50% chance that it actually kills you? If the recidivism rate is at 40%, what's the point in rehabilitating them? Why put innocent law abiding people in such a big risk, just to save a criminal?
You said that no one should be released unless there is some indication. Can you share some wisdom about what those indications are? No one knows the answer to that question. That's the problem. It's hard to know if someone is rehabilitated. Given a choice between 40% chance that an innocent life is going to be destroyed and 60% chance that a violent criminal will get back to a normal life, I know what I will choose.
About who supports and who is against rehabilitation, it's just natural selfish behaviour of people. People tend to be altruistic on matters which don't affect them. There is lots of research done on that matter. You can read 'The righteous mind' by Haidt to know what different type of people find righteous and why. Every time news about any of those grooming gang members getting released comes up, it's usually the parents who get angry. Not the single people. |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"
She should come back and be tried, just like every other British citizen then? Except, uniquely, she has had her citizenship revoked. Different treatment.
You do think that rehabilitation is possible then? In fact, you provided information to confirm that. Do you think everyone should be given that opportunity then or not? Only single people without children think that it is worth it? Where did you get that information from?
I haven't said anyone should be released early unless there is something to indicate otherwise. So, no need to talk about children and terrorist victims.
What are you disagreeing with me about?
Again, I think it was wrong to revoke her citizenship. But we know well enough that she was in ISIS. So, she should go to prison directly and then tried to see how long she should be there. She shouldn't be allowed to freely mingle with people.
"Rehabilitation is possible" is far away from "rehabilitation works". Would you take a covid vaccine if it's only 50% effective and there is a 50% chance that it actually kills you? If the recidivism rate is at 40%, what's the point in rehabilitating them? Why put innocent law abiding people in such a big risk, just to save a criminal?
You said that no one should be released unless there is some indication. Can you share some wisdom about what those indications are? No one knows the answer to that question. That's the problem. It's hard to know if someone is rehabilitated. Given a choice between 40% chance that an innocent life is going to be destroyed and 60% chance that a violent criminal will get back to a normal life, I know what I will choose.
About who supports and who is against rehabilitation, it's just natural selfish behaviour of people. People tend to be altruistic on matters which don't affect them. There is lots of research done on that matter. You can read 'The righteous mind' by Haidt to know what different type of people find righteous and why. Every time news about any of those grooming gang members getting released comes up, it's usually the parents who get angry. Not the single people."
What
Are
You
Disagreeing
With
Me
About? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I'm conflicted. I can't help thinking a 15yo joining is one who has been groomed.
There's outrage a 15yo can choose to be vaccinated or not. But a 15yo who goes to fight for terrorists is fully accountable for her actions.
"
Was she groomed?
If you saw what she was posting....she did a lot of the grooming....including her 2 "friends" that she took with her.
So a firm NO! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
She should come back and be tried, just like every other British citizen then? Except, uniquely, she has had her citizenship revoked. Different treatment.
You do think that rehabilitation is possible then? In fact, you provided information to confirm that. Do you think everyone should be given that opportunity then or not? Only single people without children think that it is worth it? Where did you get that information from?
I haven't said anyone should be released early unless there is something to indicate otherwise. So, no need to talk about children and terrorist victims.
What are you disagreeing with me about?
Again, I think it was wrong to revoke her citizenship. But we know well enough that she was in ISIS. So, she should go to prison directly and then tried to see how long she should be there. She shouldn't be allowed to freely mingle with people.
"Rehabilitation is possible" is far away from "rehabilitation works". Would you take a covid vaccine if it's only 50% effective and there is a 50% chance that it actually kills you? If the recidivism rate is at 40%, what's the point in rehabilitating them? Why put innocent law abiding people in such a big risk, just to save a criminal?
You said that no one should be released unless there is some indication. Can you share some wisdom about what those indications are? No one knows the answer to that question. That's the problem. It's hard to know if someone is rehabilitated. Given a choice between 40% chance that an innocent life is going to be destroyed and 60% chance that a violent criminal will get back to a normal life, I know what I will choose.
About who supports and who is against rehabilitation, it's just natural selfish behaviour of people. People tend to be altruistic on matters which don't affect them. There is lots of research done on that matter. You can read 'The righteous mind' by Haidt to know what different type of people find righteous and why. Every time news about any of those grooming gang members getting released comes up, it's usually the parents who get angry. Not the single people.
What
Are
You
Disagreeing
With
Me
About?"
Here you are again, taking the conversation to different directions and asking why we are discussing it. In case you can't read the posts above, here is a recap:
1) You were being hypocritical by telling one person that we should think above law and consideration rehabilitation into account while telling another person that we should stick to the law.
2) I pointed the hypocrisy.
3) You came up with couple of defences - One being that "legal technicalities" is different from law itself. The other being that that rehabilitation is not an emotional argument and is law.
4) I disagreed with that. Rehabilitation plays only a part in justice. And it doesn't even work that well. So thinking about rehabilitation in severe cases like these should be the last thing in mind. People's safety should come first.
Hope you can refresh the memory with this recap in case you actually forgot. If you were just trying to deflect as usual, I can't help. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I'm conflicted. I can't help thinking a 15yo joining is one who has been groomed.
There's outrage a 15yo can choose to be vaccinated or not. But a 15yo who goes to fight for terrorists is fully accountable for her actions.
Was she groomed?
If you saw what she was posting....she did a lot of the grooming....including her 2 "friends" that she took with her.
So a firm NO!"
And the age excuse isn't valid because she was doing the same thing even at the age of 18 and was happy with her decision. |
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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago
near ipswich |
"I'm conflicted. I can't help thinking a 15yo joining is one who has been groomed.
There's outrage a 15yo can choose to be vaccinated or not. But a 15yo who goes to fight for terrorists is fully accountable for her actions.
Was she groomed?
If you saw what she was posting....she did a lot of the grooming....including her 2 "friends" that she took with her.
So a firm NO!"
People seem to forget about them im not sure but think they were both killed, i bet their families wont want to see her back in the uk when their kids cant come back. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I'm conflicted. I can't help thinking a 15yo joining is one who has been groomed.
There's outrage a 15yo can choose to be vaccinated or not. But a 15yo who goes to fight for terrorists is fully accountable for her actions.
Was she groomed?
If you saw what she was posting....she did a lot of the grooming....including her 2 "friends" that she took with her.
So a firm NO! People seem to forget about them im not sure but think they were both killed, i bet their families wont want to see her back in the uk when their kids cant come back."
out of interest, how do we know who groomed who on this ? |
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By *oghunter33Woman
over a year ago
on the hill NordWest of |
It's scary precedent that the uk government stripped her of her nationality just because she became 'contagious'. The motto let her rot abroad, out of our sight, problem solved . Not that much off from sending offenders to far away colonies.
Imo she's British, always has been and should therefore be able to avail of her rights as UK citizen. |
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ironically, it's a precendent which makes it possible that one day sajid javid could be deemed undesirable by a future home secretary and have his nationality stripped from him using the vague excuse that he is entitled to apply to become a pakistani national on account of his parents birth place. it's an extremely dangerous precedent to set. |
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By *adetMan
over a year ago
Ipswich |
"ironically, it's a precendent which makes it possible that one day sajid javid could be deemed undesirable by a future home secretary and have his nationality stripped from him using the vague excuse that he is entitled to apply to become a pakistani national on account of his parents birth place. it's an extremely dangerous precedent to set."
Yes and if he fled the country to join a terrorist organisation that slaughtered thousands of innocent people I'd be OK with that |
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By *adetMan
over a year ago
Ipswich |
"ironically, it's a precendent which makes it possible that one day sajid javid could be deemed undesirable by a future home secretary and have his nationality stripped from him using the vague excuse that he is entitled to apply to become a pakistani national on account of his parents birth place. it's an extremely dangerous precedent to set."
Oh and letting brutal terrorists back into the country isn't setting an extremely dangerous precedent |
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By *adetMan
over a year ago
Ipswich |
"Ask the families of the people they beheaded live on camera if she should be allowed back to the UK"
Precisely. She should face justice in the country where her crimes were committed. Again on here, too much concern for the criminal and not enough for the victims |
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By *adetMan
over a year ago
Ipswich |
"Oh and letting brutal terrorists back into the country isn't setting an extremely dangerous precedent
nobody has suggested that .... apart from you that is "
Nobody has said she should be brought back to the UK? OK chap |
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By *asyukMan
over a year ago
West London |
"
She should come back and be tried, just like every other British citizen then? Except, uniquely, she has had her citizenship revoked. Different treatment.
You do think that rehabilitation is possible then? In fact, you provided information to confirm that. Do you think everyone should be given that opportunity then or not? Only single people without children think that it is worth it? Where did you get that information from?
I haven't said anyone should be released early unless there is something to indicate otherwise. So, no need to talk about children and terrorist victims.
What are you disagreeing with me about?
Again, I think it was wrong to revoke her citizenship. But we know well enough that she was in ISIS. So, she should go to prison directly and then tried to see how long she should be there. She shouldn't be allowed to freely mingle with people.
"Rehabilitation is possible" is far away from "rehabilitation works". Would you take a covid vaccine if it's only 50% effective and there is a 50% chance that it actually kills you? If the recidivism rate is at 40%, what's the point in rehabilitating them? Why put innocent law abiding people in such a big risk, just to save a criminal?
You said that no one should be released unless there is some indication. Can you share some wisdom about what those indications are? No one knows the answer to that question. That's the problem. It's hard to know if someone is rehabilitated. Given a choice between 40% chance that an innocent life is going to be destroyed and 60% chance that a violent criminal will get back to a normal life, I know what I will choose.
About who supports and who is against rehabilitation, it's just natural selfish behaviour of people. People tend to be altruistic on matters which don't affect them. There is lots of research done on that matter. You can read 'The righteous mind' by Haidt to know what different type of people find righteous and why. Every time news about any of those grooming gang members getting released comes up, it's usually the parents who get angry. Not the single people.
What
Are
You
Disagreeing
With
Me
About?
Here you are again, taking the conversation to different directions and asking why we are discussing it. In case you can't read the posts above, here is a recap:
1) You were being hypocritical by telling one person that we should think above law and consideration rehabilitation into account while telling another person that we should stick to the law.
2) I pointed the hypocrisy.
3) You came up with couple of defences - One being that "legal technicalities" is different from law itself. The other being that that rehabilitation is not an emotional argument and is law.
4) I disagreed with that. Rehabilitation plays only a part in justice. And it doesn't even work that well. So thinking about rehabilitation in severe cases like these should be the last thing in mind. People's safety should come first.
Hope you can refresh the memory with this recap in case you actually forgot. If you were just trying to deflect as usual, I can't help."
No. I have been absolutely consistent.
If you cannot follow, I cannot help.
If you want to keep persuing a narrower and narrower argument to persue, then again, up to you.
The only thing that you disagree about, apparently, is that rehabilitation is possible over many years, except that you think that it is possible. |
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|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
She should come back and be tried, just like every other British citizen then? Except, uniquely, she has had her citizenship revoked. Different treatment.
You do think that rehabilitation is possible then? In fact, you provided information to confirm that. Do you think everyone should be given that opportunity then or not? Only single people without children think that it is worth it? Where did you get that information from?
I haven't said anyone should be released early unless there is something to indicate otherwise. So, no need to talk about children and terrorist victims.
What are you disagreeing with me about?
Again, I think it was wrong to revoke her citizenship. But we know well enough that she was in ISIS. So, she should go to prison directly and then tried to see how long she should be there. She shouldn't be allowed to freely mingle with people.
"Rehabilitation is possible" is far away from "rehabilitation works". Would you take a covid vaccine if it's only 50% effective and there is a 50% chance that it actually kills you? If the recidivism rate is at 40%, what's the point in rehabilitating them? Why put innocent law abiding people in such a big risk, just to save a criminal?
You said that no one should be released unless there is some indication. Can you share some wisdom about what those indications are? No one knows the answer to that question. That's the problem. It's hard to know if someone is rehabilitated. Given a choice between 40% chance that an innocent life is going to be destroyed and 60% chance that a violent criminal will get back to a normal life, I know what I will choose.
About who supports and who is against rehabilitation, it's just natural selfish behaviour of people. People tend to be altruistic on matters which don't affect them. There is lots of research done on that matter. You can read 'The righteous mind' by Haidt to know what different type of people find righteous and why. Every time news about any of those grooming gang members getting released comes up, it's usually the parents who get angry. Not the single people.
What
Are
You
Disagreeing
With
Me
About?
Here you are again, taking the conversation to different directions and asking why we are discussing it. In case you can't read the posts above, here is a recap:
1) You were being hypocritical by telling one person that we should think above law and consideration rehabilitation into account while telling another person that we should stick to the law.
2) I pointed the hypocrisy.
3) You came up with couple of defences - One being that "legal technicalities" is different from law itself. The other being that that rehabilitation is not an emotional argument and is law.
4) I disagreed with that. Rehabilitation plays only a part in justice. And it doesn't even work that well. So thinking about rehabilitation in severe cases like these should be the last thing in mind. People's safety should come first.
Hope you can refresh the memory with this recap in case you actually forgot. If you were just trying to deflect as usual, I can't help.
No. I have been absolutely consistent.
If you cannot follow, I cannot help.
If you want to keep persuing a narrower and narrower argument to persue, then again, up to you.
The only thing that you disagree about, apparently, is that rehabilitation is possible over many years, except that you think that it is possible. "
I just quoted your two posts - One said that you should think above law and another said that we should stick to law. How is that consistent? |
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