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By *irldn OP Couple
over a year ago
Brighton |
I’m curious on people’s views on this.
I myself have very mixed feelings and confusion. There clearly needs to be more research undertaken on performance advantages in a person born male who transitions post puberty and then competes against women.
There are those who say “trans women are women” and in every other aspect of life I agree (I think, it’s complicated and confusing). But in sport this would appear (from research so far) to result in a competitive advantage.
What about people who are born as female and then transition to male after puberty. How do they perform in male sports?
Would prefer this thread stayed focused on sports rather than general trans rights and the inevitable bun fight over access to toilets and changing rooms. That can be a different thread PLEASE. |
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In all honesty, I don't know enough about it to really make judgement.
From what I understand, the research suggests that people who transition after puberty would have a physical advantage to CIS or people who transition before?
If that is the case, I would say they should not compete against CIS women in competition. |
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
Sports such as swimming and rugby are already making the decision to not let men who have transitioned to women compete in the female category.
The biological advantage men have remains a factor for numbers of years, even when HRT is involved.
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99% of the time this issue comes up it's just used by people who want to bash the whole trans community. As if this is some kind of top trump card that gives them the right to be prejudice.
It's a minor issue, and in my opinion each sports governing body needs to decide if it gives an unfair advantage or not. |
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I'm my mind, sport is all about competition between equals. That's why we separate men and women, because one has physical advantages over the other.
It's impossible to tell whether a specific transitioner has gained a physical advantage or not, and that means that there will always be a suspicion of unfairness whenever a person transitions.
If sport is to retain the idea of fairness, the only option available is to not allow contentious people to compete. It's a shame, but it's the only acceptable way forward. |
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By *eroy1000Man
over a year ago
milton keynes |
"I'm my mind, sport is all about competition between equals. That's why we separate men and women, because one has physical advantages over the other.
It's impossible to tell whether a specific transitioner has gained a physical advantage or not, and that means that there will always be a suspicion of unfairness whenever a person transitions.
If sport is to retain the idea of fairness, the only option available is to not allow contentious people to compete. It's a shame, but it's the only acceptable way forward."
Largely agree with this especially the competition of equals though I suppose you could say even same sex are not equal as we are all built differently. I would not like to make a long term decision on this as like said before its confusing and torn either way. Will we end up with competition between just trans people |
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By *AFKA HovisMan
over a year ago
Sindon Swingdon Swindon |
It's should be done on a sport by sport basis. Using science. And a balanced score carf to ensure fairness of both the trans competitors and cis. And looking at competitivness and safety.
Ideally there would be some holistic science to help inform everyone the difference in attributes between a cis woman and a trans women.
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"Ideally there would be some holistic science to help inform everyone the difference in attributes between a cis woman and a trans women."
That won't be welcomed. There are a lot of people that don't want to admit that there are differences between cis and trans women.
But this thread is about sport. I'll try to keep it that way. |
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By *irldn OP Couple
over a year ago
Brighton |
Thanks for replies so far.
As far as I can tell the controversy seems to be around people born male who transitioned to female. I have not seen any controversy on people who were born female and transitioned to male with regards physical advantage when competing in male sports.
That suggests to me that (despite still being early days) the advantage is really one sided.
I have seen vitriolic arguments presented from both the cis community and the trans community. In terms of the latter it appears that for some it is offensive to even raise this question as it denies the person who transitioned to a woman from fully living as a woman and phrases like TERF get bandied about.
This is why I am torn. I fully support trans rights and even admire people who have the courage to go down that route. But when it comes to sport the unfair advantage comes into play and I cannot support that. |
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No. Spending a couple of decades developing as a man, with the bone structure of a man, and muscle mass gives an unfair advantage in women's sports. No ideology, no matter how much partisan groups and media try and force it down our throats, would convince us otherwise. To challenge it makes some very nasty people make all sorts of assumptions, but challenged it should be. |
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"Thanks for replies so far.
As far as I can tell the controversy seems to be around people born male who transitioned to female. I have not seen any controversy on people who were born female and transitioned to male with regards physical advantage when competing in male sports.
That suggests to me that (despite still being early days) the advantage is really one sided.
I have seen vitriolic arguments presented from both the cis community and the trans community. In terms of the latter it appears that for some it is offensive to even raise this question as it denies the person who transitioned to a woman from fully living as a woman and phrases like TERF get bandied about.
This is why I am torn. I fully support trans rights and even admire people who have the courage to go down that route. But when it comes to sport the unfair advantage comes into play and I cannot support that."
There is zero controversy the opposite way because there is no advantage it's as simple as that.
My experience in sports is mostly martial arts and combat sports, and there's a massive reason why those advantages matter in sports such as those.
The fact that a discussion can't be had on the subject without the threat of being cancelled and labelled a TERF, shows me that the opposing argument is based on nothing at all. |
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By *os19Man
over a year ago
Edmonton |
I appreciate that snooker is not the most popular sport or news worthy.However I believe it could be about to change as Jamie Hunter won a ranking event in the USA and if she wins the women’s world championships she could earn a tour card to play on the men’s circuit.One leading women player Wendy Jans as already stated that it is unfair as Jamie Hunter didn’t do very well on the men’s circuit and the women’s game could suffer if men change sex to become women to play on the women’s circuit.As snooker is not a sport that requires you to be a good athlete it shouldn’t be that big a deal but having watched the women’s game it’s definitely of a lower standard to the men’s so I guess there is a possibility that say a top 64 male player who is 6 feet tall became a women could do extremely well. |
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This to me is like saying let's all just compleat as one and do away with men and women's sport let every one play at what they want. And reach a level suited to them.
Or keep it to how you are born it might exclude sum but lots are all ready excluded anyway. |
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By *irldn OP Couple
over a year ago
Brighton |
"This to me is like saying let's all just compleat as one and do away with men and women's sport let every one play at what they want. And reach a level suited to them.
Or keep it to how you are born it might exclude sum but lots are all ready excluded anyway. "
On your first point point, sport as a recreational activity certainly should be inclusive but competitive sport has to be based on natural/honed ability applied fairly against a peer group. If a person has a physical advantage (strength, speed, height) based on their birth gender, then I cannot see how that can be fair. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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While listening to an interview where this issue came up, the athlete being interviewed mentioned in their view that a possible solution is to have male, female and trans competitions, this does sound non-inclusive but they were also discussing sports like rugby, swimming etc and explaining things about bone density and hormone levels.
I'm in absolutely no way suggesting I think it's a good solution, but did make me think a little more about the topic as hadn't given it much thought before hand. |
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By *irldn OP Couple
over a year ago
Brighton |
There is a reason para athletes don’t compete against able-bodied athletes. It simply wouldn’t be a fair competition.
In addition there are different categories of para athletes as well for the same reasons. |
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"This to me is like saying let's all just compleat as one and do away with men and women's sport let every one play at what they want. And reach a level suited to them.
Or keep it to how you are born it might exclude sum but lots are all ready excluded anyway. "
It would just bring up the issue of a miniscule amount of women being present in sport if you just had open divisions. Most female athletes know this and are under no illusions, it's the reason why most disagree with trans athletes or want it heavily legislated to even the playing field. |
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