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Vauxhall… Patrick Minford saw it coming
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"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law" Actually it is Stellantis who has asked the question. Stellantis also own Peugeot, Citroën and Fiat. The part in question is on how much of the car originates in the UK/EU. At the moment it stands at 45% but later due to go up to 65%. | |||
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"Just invest in a UK supply base." I don't believe that there are any lithium mines in the UK. Even if there were, without using child labour they would not be competitive. Until the UK populace insist that imported manufactured goods and foodstuffs comply with the same production standards as home produced goods we will inevitably outsource manufacturing/co2 emissions to a land far far away. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law" I haven't read that Stellantis propose to move manufacturing to the EU. Stellantis do intend to open a plant in Serbia but that won't satisfy EU regulations either. It is that protectionist regime that Stellantis wants to alter. | |||
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"Just invest in a UK supply base. I don't believe that there are any lithium mines in the UK. Even if there were, without using child labour they would not be competitive. Until the UK populace insist that imported manufactured goods and foodstuffs comply with the same production standards as home produced goods we will inevitably outsource manufacturing/co2 emissions to a land far far away." Try Cornwall | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law" I'm surprised you haven't already made several hundred complaints to the police about Brexit, or brought a civil claim yourself against a whole myriad of people, given that it seems to be a complete obsession for you. I think it's time for you to accept that everyone on the forum knows your views about Brexit and assumes that you will start a daily thread about it. So there is probably no need to bother and you can find something more constructive to do with your time. Maybe some psychiatric help might not go amiss. Brexit and Trump Derangement Syndromes are a real thing. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law I'm surprised you haven't already made several hundred complaints to the police about Brexit, or brought a civil claim yourself against a whole myriad of people, given that it seems to be a complete obsession for you. I think it's time for you to accept that everyone on the forum knows your views about Brexit and assumes that you will start a daily thread about it. So there is probably no need to bother and you can find something more constructive to do with your time. Maybe some psychiatric help might not go amiss. Brexit and Trump Derangement Syndromes are a real thing." Did you read the OP? It is about Vauxhall and Brexit  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Just invest in a UK supply base. I don't believe that there are any lithium mines in the UK. Even if there were, without using child labour they would not be competitive. Until the UK populace insist that imported manufactured goods and foodstuffs comply with the same production standards as home produced goods we will inevitably outsource manufacturing/co2 emissions to a land far far away. Try Cornwall" redruth in fact | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law I'm surprised you haven't already made several hundred complaints to the police about Brexit, or brought a civil claim yourself against a whole myriad of people, given that it seems to be a complete obsession for you. I think it's time for you to accept that everyone on the forum knows your views about Brexit and assumes that you will start a daily thread about it. So there is probably no need to bother and you can find something more constructive to do with your time. Maybe some psychiatric help might not go amiss. Brexit and Trump Derangement Syndromes are a real thing." It must cause you such great angst to see the Brexit fantasy sinking into oblivion. Is it the fact that you just can’t accept that you were wrong? Or were you one of the gullible ones who we should perhaps feel sorry for? I get how frustrating it must be to have your mistakes being broadcast on TV and on the internet every single day. Cheer up buttercup, you are not alone - we will all have to face up to this for years and years to come. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law I'm surprised you haven't already made several hundred complaints to the police about Brexit, or brought a civil claim yourself against a whole myriad of people, given that it seems to be a complete obsession for you. I think it's time for you to accept that everyone on the forum knows your views about Brexit and assumes that you will start a daily thread about it. So there is probably no need to bother and you can find something more constructive to do with your time. Maybe some psychiatric help might not go amiss. Brexit and Trump Derangement Syndromes are a real thing. Did you read the OP? It is about Vauxhall and Brexit "Your favourite topic. They should just rename the Politics forum "Brexit". | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law I'm surprised you haven't already made several hundred complaints to the police about Brexit, or brought a civil claim yourself against a whole myriad of people, given that it seems to be a complete obsession for you. I think it's time for you to accept that everyone on the forum knows your views about Brexit and assumes that you will start a daily thread about it. So there is probably no need to bother and you can find something more constructive to do with your time. Maybe some psychiatric help might not go amiss. Brexit and Trump Derangement Syndromes are a real thing. It must cause you such great angst to see the Brexit fantasy sinking into oblivion. Is it the fact that you just can’t accept that you were wrong? Or were you one of the gullible ones who we should perhaps feel sorry for? I get how frustrating it must be to have your mistakes being broadcast on TV and on the internet every single day. Cheer up buttercup, you are not alone - we will all have to face up to this for years and years to come." It doesn't cause me anything, I'm doing absolutely fine thanks, but I guess I'm just some gullible simpleton who doesn't understand how badly off I really am. If only I were living in Germany or France then I'd never have had it so good. | |||
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"Just invest in a UK supply base. I don't believe that there are any lithium mines in the UK. Even if there were, without using child labour they would not be competitive. Until the UK populace insist that imported manufactured goods and foodstuffs comply with the same production standards as home produced goods we will inevitably outsource manufacturing/co2 emissions to a land far far away." Try British Lithium at Stenalees near St. Austell. Producing battery grade Lithium… | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law I'm surprised you haven't already made several hundred complaints to the police about Brexit, or brought a civil claim yourself against a whole myriad of people, given that it seems to be a complete obsession for you. I think it's time for you to accept that everyone on the forum knows your views about Brexit and assumes that you will start a daily thread about it. So there is probably no need to bother and you can find something more constructive to do with your time. Maybe some psychiatric help might not go amiss. Brexit and Trump Derangement Syndromes are a real thing. Did you read the OP? It is about Vauxhall and Brexit
Your favourite topic.
They should just rename the Politics forum "Brexit"."You keep reading and commenting on them | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law I'm surprised you haven't already made several hundred complaints to the police about Brexit, or brought a civil claim yourself against a whole myriad of people, given that it seems to be a complete obsession for you. I think it's time for you to accept that everyone on the forum knows your views about Brexit and assumes that you will start a daily thread about it. So there is probably no need to bother and you can find something more constructive to do with your time. Maybe some psychiatric help might not go amiss. Brexit and Trump Derangement Syndromes are a real thing. Did you read the OP? It is about Vauxhall and Brexit
Your favourite topic.
They should just rename the Politics forum "Brexit".
You keep reading and commenting on them "I do think you should suggest to the site a separate forum about Brexit, maybe entitled "Remoaners on Brexshit". Then the same half a dozen people can spend literally every minute of their lives glued to it and think they are achieving something useful. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law I'm surprised you haven't already made several hundred complaints to the police about Brexit, or brought a civil claim yourself against a whole myriad of people, given that it seems to be a complete obsession for you. I think it's time for you to accept that everyone on the forum knows your views about Brexit and assumes that you will start a daily thread about it. So there is probably no need to bother and you can find something more constructive to do with your time. Maybe some psychiatric help might not go amiss. Brexit and Trump Derangement Syndromes are a real thing. Did you read the OP? It is about Vauxhall and Brexit
Your favourite topic.
They should just rename the Politics forum "Brexit".
You keep reading and commenting on them
I do think you should suggest to the site a separate forum about Brexit, maybe entitled "Remoaners on Brexshit".
Then the same half a dozen people can spend literally every minute of their lives glued to it and think they are achieving something useful."Yet here you are, commenting on the thread again? How do you know this ‘same half dozen’ are on here every minute of their lives ? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law I'm surprised you haven't already made several hundred complaints to the police about Brexit, or brought a civil claim yourself against a whole myriad of people, given that it seems to be a complete obsession for you. I think it's time for you to accept that everyone on the forum knows your views about Brexit and assumes that you will start a daily thread about it. So there is probably no need to bother and you can find something more constructive to do with your time. Maybe some psychiatric help might not go amiss. Brexit and Trump Derangement Syndromes are a real thing. Did you read the OP? It is about Vauxhall and Brexit
Your favourite topic.
They should just rename the Politics forum "Brexit".
You keep reading and commenting on them
I do think you should suggest to the site a separate forum about Brexit, maybe entitled "Remoaners on Brexshit".
Then the same half a dozen people can spend literally every minute of their lives glued to it and think they are achieving something useful."Just as the same idiots who voted for it, who are unable to see beyond the end of their noses, can try to justify what a shit show it has turned out to be…. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Just invest in a UK supply base. I don't believe that there are any lithium mines in the UK. Even if there were, without using child labour they would not be competitive. Until the UK populace insist that imported manufactured goods and foodstuffs comply with the same production standards as home produced goods we will inevitably outsource manufacturing/co2 emissions to a land far far away. Try Cornwall" Lithium has been found in Cornwall but I don’t think any commercial quantity is being extracted as yet. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law I'm surprised you haven't already made several hundred complaints to the police about Brexit, or brought a civil claim yourself against a whole myriad of people, given that it seems to be a complete obsession for you. I think it's time for you to accept that everyone on the forum knows your views about Brexit and assumes that you will start a daily thread about it. So there is probably no need to bother and you can find something more constructive to do with your time. Maybe some psychiatric help might not go amiss. Brexit and Trump Derangement Syndromes are a real thing. Did you read the OP? It is about Vauxhall and Brexit
Your favourite topic.
They should just rename the Politics forum "Brexit".
You keep reading and commenting on them
I do think you should suggest to the site a separate forum about Brexit, maybe entitled "Remoaners on Brexshit".
Then the same half a dozen people can spend literally every minute of their lives glued to it and think they are achieving something useful."In fairness, you mention "brexit" and "remoaners" more than everyone else on the site combined. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Just invest in a UK supply base. I don't believe that there are any lithium mines in the UK. Even if there were, without using child labour they would not be competitive. Until the UK populace insist that imported manufactured goods and foodstuffs comply with the same production standards as home produced goods we will inevitably outsource manufacturing/co2 emissions to a land far far away. Try Cornwall Lithium has been found in Cornwall but I don’t think any commercial quantity is being extracted as yet. " This isn’t a new find. Lithium was discovered in Cornwall in the 1860’s | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law I'm surprised you haven't already made several hundred complaints to the police about Brexit, or brought a civil claim yourself against a whole myriad of people, given that it seems to be a complete obsession for you. I think it's time for you to accept that everyone on the forum knows your views about Brexit and assumes that you will start a daily thread about it. So there is probably no need to bother and you can find something more constructive to do with your time. Maybe some psychiatric help might not go amiss. Brexit and Trump Derangement Syndromes are a real thing. Did you read the OP? It is about Vauxhall and Brexit
Your favourite topic.
They should just rename the Politics forum "Brexit".
You keep reading and commenting on them
I do think you should suggest to the site a separate forum about Brexit, maybe entitled "Remoaners on Brexshit".
Then the same half a dozen people can spend literally every minute of their lives glued to it and think they are achieving something useful."jings… You really do not get irony….lol Pot kettle black…? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law I'm surprised you haven't already made several hundred complaints to the police about Brexit, or brought a civil claim yourself against a whole myriad of people, given that it seems to be a complete obsession for you. I think it's time for you to accept that everyone on the forum knows your views about Brexit and assumes that you will start a daily thread about it. So there is probably no need to bother and you can find something more constructive to do with your time. Maybe some psychiatric help might not go amiss. Brexit and Trump Derangement Syndromes are a real thing. Did you read the OP? It is about Vauxhall and Brexit
Your favourite topic.
They should just rename the Politics forum "Brexit"."my highest issue with brexit is that it distracts from real politics. But lets be balanced. Brexit and boat people (plus guns and groomers). | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law I'm surprised you haven't already made several hundred complaints to the police about Brexit, or brought a civil claim yourself against a whole myriad of people, given that it seems to be a complete obsession for you. I think it's time for you to accept that everyone on the forum knows your views about Brexit and assumes that you will start a daily thread about it. So there is probably no need to bother and you can find something more constructive to do with your time. Maybe some psychiatric help might not go amiss. Brexit and Trump Derangement Syndromes are a real thing. Did you read the OP? It is about Vauxhall and Brexit
Your favourite topic.
They should just rename the Politics forum "Brexit".my highest issue with brexit is that it distracts from real politics.
But lets be balanced.
Brexit and boat people (plus guns and groomers).
"My issue with Brexit is found in the first post, “Brexit was sold to simple people”. And that is from a person who posted they are woke. The lack of personal awareness with this statement is a working example of all that is wrong with this country and the people who believe it’s their way or no way. Constant belittling of anyone who votes or thinks differently to themselves. I did not vote for leave but I can accept the majority view, and hope that we can get things done for the nation. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law I'm surprised you haven't already made several hundred complaints to the police about Brexit, or brought a civil claim yourself against a whole myriad of people, given that it seems to be a complete obsession for you. I think it's time for you to accept that everyone on the forum knows your views about Brexit and assumes that you will start a daily thread about it. So there is probably no need to bother and you can find something more constructive to do with your time. Maybe some psychiatric help might not go amiss. Brexit and Trump Derangement Syndromes are a real thing. Did you read the OP? It is about Vauxhall and Brexit
Your favourite topic.
They should just rename the Politics forum "Brexit".my highest issue with brexit is that it distracts from real politics.
But lets be balanced.
Brexit and boat people (plus guns and groomers).
My issue with Brexit is found in the first post, “Brexit was sold to simple people”. And that is from a person who posted they are woke.
The lack of personal awareness with this statement is a working example of all that is wrong with this country and the people who believe it’s their way or no way. Constant belittling of anyone who votes or thinks differently to themselves.
I did not vote for leave but I can accept the majority view, and hope that we can get things done for the nation.
"Agreed 100%. However I tend to ignore the OP most of the time. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law I'm surprised you haven't already made several hundred complaints to the police about Brexit, or brought a civil claim yourself against a whole myriad of people, given that it seems to be a complete obsession for you. I think it's time for you to accept that everyone on the forum knows your views about Brexit and assumes that you will start a daily thread about it. So there is probably no need to bother and you can find something more constructive to do with your time. Maybe some psychiatric help might not go amiss. Brexit and Trump Derangement Syndromes are a real thing. Did you read the OP? It is about Vauxhall and Brexit
Your favourite topic.
They should just rename the Politics forum "Brexit".my highest issue with brexit is that it distracts from real politics.
But lets be balanced.
Brexit and boat people (plus guns and groomers).
My issue with Brexit is found in the first post, “Brexit was sold to simple people”. And that is from a person who posted they are woke.
The lack of personal awareness with this statement is a working example of all that is wrong with this country and the people who believe it’s their way or no way. Constant belittling of anyone who votes or thinks differently to themselves.
I did not vote for leave but I can accept the majority view, and hope that we can get things done for the nation.
Agreed 100%. However I tend to ignore the OP most of the time."You’re a person who can look at both sides of the argument, that’s for sure
We have a few here that can do that too, more don’t recognise it though, which is a shame. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law I'm surprised you haven't already made several hundred complaints to the police about Brexit, or brought a civil claim yourself against a whole myriad of people, given that it seems to be a complete obsession for you. I think it's time for you to accept that everyone on the forum knows your views about Brexit and assumes that you will start a daily thread about it. So there is probably no need to bother and you can find something more constructive to do with your time. Maybe some psychiatric help might not go amiss. Brexit and Trump Derangement Syndromes are a real thing. Did you read the OP? It is about Vauxhall and Brexit
Your favourite topic.
They should just rename the Politics forum "Brexit".my highest issue with brexit is that it distracts from real politics.
But lets be balanced.
Brexit and boat people (plus guns and groomers).
My issue with Brexit is found in the first post, “Brexit was sold to simple people”. And that is from a person who posted they are woke.
The lack of personal awareness with this statement is a working example of all that is wrong with this country and the people who believe it’s their way or no way. Constant belittling of anyone who votes or thinks differently to themselves.
I did not vote for leave but I can accept the majority view, and hope that we can get things done for the nation.
Agreed 100%. However I tend to ignore the OP most of the time.
You’re a person who can look at both sides of the argument, that’s for sure
We have a few here that can do that too, more don’t recognise it though, which is a shame."Don't tell the people I usually question 
They definitely won't believe you | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law" The rules of origin is not a new thing and was known what the target's are. I can only assume that Vauxhall were banking on a UK supplied battery as this forms much of the value. The government have been very slow on this though I think they are due to announce something soon. Nissan faced the same issue but simply invested (with some government backing) in a new UK plant to make batteries for them. From what I understand there is investment going into the UK supply chain due to the rules of origin issue. Of course these rules and possible tariffs work both ways | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law I'm surprised you haven't already made several hundred complaints to the police about Brexit, or brought a civil claim yourself against a whole myriad of people, given that it seems to be a complete obsession for you. I think it's time for you to accept that everyone on the forum knows your views about Brexit and assumes that you will start a daily thread about it. So there is probably no need to bother and you can find something more constructive to do with your time. Maybe some psychiatric help might not go amiss. Brexit and Trump Derangement Syndromes are a real thing. Did you read the OP? It is about Vauxhall and Brexit
Your favourite topic.
They should just rename the Politics forum "Brexit".
You keep reading and commenting on them
I do think you should suggest to the site a separate forum about Brexit, maybe entitled "Remoaners on Brexshit".
Then the same half a dozen people can spend literally every minute of their lives glued to it and think they are achieving something useful.
jings… You really do not get irony….lol Pot kettle black…?"Irony....??!! I would kindly suggest you grasp the true meaning of this oft used noun........ All I read from posts by yourself and the other two or three like minded intellects on here is, more often than not, a contemptible ridicule aimed at belittling anyone whose counter views you find 'disagreeable' It's certainly no basis for a healthy, adult debate, or in your usual vernacular...., "Not a good look" And at this juncture, I am permanently 'out' I would suggest other generally reasonable contributors do the same. Just my opinion, mind. | |||
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"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law I'm surprised you haven't already made several hundred complaints to the police about Brexit, or brought a civil claim yourself against a whole myriad of people, given that it seems to be a complete obsession for you. I think it's time for you to accept that everyone on the forum knows your views about Brexit and assumes that you will start a daily thread about it. So there is probably no need to bother and you can find something more constructive to do with your time. Maybe some psychiatric help might not go amiss. Brexit and Trump Derangement Syndromes are a real thing. Did you read the OP? It is about Vauxhall and Brexit
Your favourite topic.
They should just rename the Politics forum "Brexit".
You keep reading and commenting on them
I do think you should suggest to the site a separate forum about Brexit, maybe entitled "Remoaners on Brexshit".
Then the same half a dozen people can spend literally every minute of their lives glued to it and think they are achieving something useful.
jings… You really do not get irony….lol Pot kettle black…?
Irony....??!!
I would kindly suggest you grasp the true meaning of this oft used noun........
All I read from posts by yourself and the other two or three like minded intellects on here is, more often than not, a contemptible ridicule aimed at belittling anyone whose counter views you find 'disagreeable'
It's certainly no basis for a healthy, adult debate, or in your usual vernacular....,
"Not a good look"
And at this juncture, I am permanently 'out'
I would suggest other generally reasonable contributors do the same.
Just my opinion, mind."wooosh…….. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law I'm surprised you haven't already made several hundred complaints to the police about Brexit, or brought a civil claim yourself against a whole myriad of people, given that it seems to be a complete obsession for you. I think it's time for you to accept that everyone on the forum knows your views about Brexit and assumes that you will start a daily thread about it. So there is probably no need to bother and you can find something more constructive to do with your time. Maybe some psychiatric help might not go amiss. Brexit and Trump Derangement Syndromes are a real thing. Did you read the OP? It is about Vauxhall and Brexit
Your favourite topic.
They should just rename the Politics forum "Brexit".my highest issue with brexit is that it distracts from real politics.
But lets be balanced.
Brexit and boat people (plus guns and groomers).
My issue with Brexit is found in the first post, “Brexit was sold to simple people”. And that is from a person who posted they are woke.
The lack of personal awareness with this statement is a working example of all that is wrong with this country and the people who believe it’s their way or no way. Constant belittling of anyone who votes or thinks differently to themselves.
I did not vote for leave but I can accept the majority view, and hope that we can get things done for the nation.
"Ha ha ha - just as well you clarified that you were not one of the simple people who voted for for the nonsense that we find ourselves living through. Then agin, you appear to be suggesting that a person who is thoughtful and aware of intolerance and injustices in the world is somehow simple… How absolutely bizarre. Anyway - getting back on track, you still have not explained how we attract foreign investment back to the U.K. now that we have put up barriers to trade with our biggest and closest trading partners? This is kind of a very big deal for this country. Why would multi-nationals now invest in the U.K. at the same rate that they did when they would have had free and unfettered access to the whole of the EU and now instead they have barriers and uncertainty? I wonder how it is that the Republic of Ireland has become the poster boy for growth, productivity and economic success in recent years? How hard does a person have to think about that? Or could someone fairly simple figure it out? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law I'm surprised you haven't already made several hundred complaints to the police about Brexit, or brought a civil claim yourself against a whole myriad of people, given that it seems to be a complete obsession for you. I think it's time for you to accept that everyone on the forum knows your views about Brexit and assumes that you will start a daily thread about it. So there is probably no need to bother and you can find something more constructive to do with your time. Maybe some psychiatric help might not go amiss. Brexit and Trump Derangement Syndromes are a real thing. Did you read the OP? It is about Vauxhall and Brexit
Your favourite topic.
They should just rename the Politics forum "Brexit".my highest issue with brexit is that it distracts from real politics.
But lets be balanced.
Brexit and boat people (plus guns and groomers).
My issue with Brexit is found in the first post, “Brexit was sold to simple people”. And that is from a person who posted they are woke.
The lack of personal awareness with this statement is a working example of all that is wrong with this country and the people who believe it’s their way or no way. Constant belittling of anyone who votes or thinks differently to themselves.
I did not vote for leave but I can accept the majority view, and hope that we can get things done for the nation.
Ha ha ha - just as well you clarified that you were not one of the simple people who voted for for the nonsense that we find ourselves living through.
Then agin, you appear to be suggesting that a person who is thoughtful and aware of intolerance and injustices in the world is somehow simple… How absolutely bizarre.
Anyway - getting back on track, you still have not explained how we attract foreign investment back to the U.K. now that we have put up barriers to trade with our biggest and closest trading partners? This is kind of a very big deal for this country. Why would multi-nationals now invest in the U.K. at the same rate that they did when they would have had free and unfettered access to the whole of the EU and now instead they have barriers and uncertainty?
I wonder how it is that the Republic of Ireland has become the poster boy for growth, productivity and economic success in recent years? How hard does a person have to think about that? Or could someone fairly simple figure it out?"The UK government has been asked to change trade, law and its fundamental ways of working, yes or no? | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law I'm surprised you haven't already made several hundred complaints to the police about Brexit, or brought a civil claim yourself against a whole myriad of people, given that it seems to be a complete obsession for you. I think it's time for you to accept that everyone on the forum knows your views about Brexit and assumes that you will start a daily thread about it. So there is probably no need to bother and you can find something more constructive to do with your time. Maybe some psychiatric help might not go amiss. Brexit and Trump Derangement Syndromes are a real thing. Did you read the OP? It is about Vauxhall and Brexit
Your favourite topic.
They should just rename the Politics forum "Brexit".my highest issue with brexit is that it distracts from real politics.
But lets be balanced.
Brexit and boat people (plus guns and groomers).
My issue with Brexit is found in the first post, “Brexit was sold to simple people”. And that is from a person who posted they are woke.
The lack of personal awareness with this statement is a working example of all that is wrong with this country and the people who believe it’s their way or no way. Constant belittling of anyone who votes or thinks differently to themselves.
I did not vote for leave but I can accept the majority view, and hope that we can get things done for the nation.
Ha ha ha - just as well you clarified that you were not one of the simple people who voted for for the nonsense that we find ourselves living through.
Then agin, you appear to be suggesting that a person who is thoughtful and aware of intolerance and injustices in the world is somehow simple… How absolutely bizarre.
Anyway - getting back on track, you still have not explained how we attract foreign investment back to the U.K. now that we have put up barriers to trade with our biggest and closest trading partners? This is kind of a very big deal for this country. Why would multi-nationals now invest in the U.K. at the same rate that they did when they would have had free and unfettered access to the whole of the EU and now instead they have barriers and uncertainty?
I wonder how it is that the Republic of Ireland has become the poster boy for growth, productivity and economic success in recent years? How hard does a person have to think about that? Or could someone fairly simple figure it out?
The UK government has been asked to change trade, law and its fundamental ways of working, yes or no?
"I read on the BBC today that Sunak has had discussions with the EU over this issue but as yet no outcome. It also transpires that this is not just a UK thing as the EU motor trade body are asking for the same thing as tariffs work both ways | |||
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"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law" The USA has moved to encourage domestic battery and vehicle production through IRA. The EU has rolled back state aid rules for the same reason. Both places have lots of financial firepower to subsidise the set-up of such huge investments. We do not have that scale anymore. Nissan received something the region of £120m in subsidies for their (relatively modest) factory. Tata are apparently asking for £500m and something for the steel plant. If we want to maintain our car industry then we will have to cough up with several years before it's up and running. However it seeds a lot of jobs from lithium mining to refining, anode, cathode and cell manufacture to recycling. Brexit meant that we have spent the last few years distracted with unforced internal chaos and external posturing so are coming to this much later than we should have. We are going to have to renegotiate our trade deal yet again. Get Brexit done, yet again. It will all happen but cost more and take longer than it would have done because we've "taken back control" of something. | |||
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"The USA has moved to encourage domestic battery and vehicle production through IRA. The EU has rolled back state aid rules for the same reason. ... We are going to have to renegotiate our trade deal yet again. Get Brexit done, yet again. It will all happen but cost more and take longer than it would have done because we've "taken back control" of something." As you say, this is all happening because the USA have introduced a new protectionist law to aid their car manufacturers. Do you really think that the Brexit negotiators should have foreseen this, and put suitable measures in place? Or is it perfectly fine to renegotiate trade deals when both sides will benefit from it? | |||
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"The USA has moved to encourage domestic battery and vehicle production through IRA. The EU has rolled back state aid rules for the same reason. ... We are going to have to renegotiate our trade deal yet again. Get Brexit done, yet again. It will all happen but cost more and take longer than it would have done because we've "taken back control" of something. As you say, this is all happening because the USA have introduced a new protectionist law to aid their car manufacturers. Do you really think that the Brexit negotiators should have foreseen this, and put suitable measures in place? Or is it perfectly fine to renegotiate trade deals when both sides will benefit from it?" This could indeed be one of those times when both sides will benefit from a change as the EU motor trade body are asking for the same thing. It would be difficult to predict accurately what the U.S. will do in years to come so being flexible a bit can help. What is concerning is the apparent lack of action from the government on this. Nissan, with some aid sorted their own plant out so it's not impossible. I am not sure what the EU scheme is yet to combat the U.S. scheme, does anyone? | |||
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"The USA has moved to encourage domestic battery and vehicle production through IRA. The EU has rolled back state aid rules for the same reason. ... We are going to have to renegotiate our trade deal yet again. Get Brexit done, yet again. It will all happen but cost more and take longer than it would have done because we've "taken back control" of something. As you say, this is all happening because the USA have introduced a new protectionist law to aid their car manufacturers. Do you really think that the Brexit negotiators should have foreseen this, and put suitable measures in place? Or is it perfectly fine to renegotiate trade deals when both sides will benefit from it?" You've missed the point, I think. There would not be anything to renegotiate at all without Brexit. There would not be any additional time, money and effort spent to stand still. This after renegotiating the Northern Ireland protocol and the assembly still not sitting there as a consequence. Nobody foresaw anything because there was no plan. Renegotiating international treaties is a long way from normal because they are complicated and particularly with the politics in this matter highly emotive. | |||
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"The USA has moved to encourage domestic battery and vehicle production through IRA. The EU has rolled back state aid rules for the same reason. ... We are going to have to renegotiate our trade deal yet again. Get Brexit done, yet again. It will all happen but cost more and take longer than it would have done because we've "taken back control" of something. As you say, this is all happening because the USA have introduced a new protectionist law to aid their car manufacturers. Do you really think that the Brexit negotiators should have foreseen this, and put suitable measures in place? Or is it perfectly fine to renegotiate trade deals when both sides will benefit from it? This could indeed be one of those times when both sides will benefit from a change as the EU motor trade body are asking for the same thing. It would be difficult to predict accurately what the U.S. will do in years to come so being flexible a bit can help. What is concerning is the apparent lack of action from the government on this. Nissan, with some aid sorted their own plant out so it's not impossible. I am not sure what the EU scheme is yet to combat the U.S. scheme, does anyone?" The EU have made €3.2bn available for battery development with another €2.9bn by 2025 with the European Infrastructure Bank providing additional finance. State aid rules have also been rolled back to allow individual countries to also provide subsidies. There are about 35 planned in the EU, but only about 7 confirmed and 5 started. IRA makes the others less certain in the short-term at least. An investment may be made in the USA before the EU rather than not at all. | |||
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"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law The USA has moved to encourage domestic battery and vehicle production through IRA. The EU has rolled back state aid rules for the same reason. Both places have lots of financial firepower to subsidise the set-up of such huge investments. We do not have that scale anymore. Nissan received something the region of £120m in subsidies for their (relatively modest) factory. Tata are apparently asking for £500m and something for the steel plant. If we want to maintain our car industry then we will have to cough up with several years before it's up and running. However it seeds a lot of jobs from lithium mining to refining, anode, cathode and cell manufacture to recycling. Brexit meant that we have spent the last few years distracted with unforced internal chaos and external posturing so are coming to this much later than we should have. We are going to have to renegotiate our trade deal yet again. Get Brexit done, yet again. It will all happen but cost more and take longer than it would have done because we've "taken back control" of something." we will need renegotiate Brexit again? Why? | |||
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"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law The USA has moved to encourage domestic battery and vehicle production through IRA. The EU has rolled back state aid rules for the same reason. Both places have lots of financial firepower to subsidise the set-up of such huge investments. We do not have that scale anymore. Nissan received something the region of £120m in subsidies for their (relatively modest) factory. Tata are apparently asking for £500m and something for the steel plant. If we want to maintain our car industry then we will have to cough up with several years before it's up and running. However it seeds a lot of jobs from lithium mining to refining, anode, cathode and cell manufacture to recycling. Brexit meant that we have spent the last few years distracted with unforced internal chaos and external posturing so are coming to this much later than we should have. We are going to have to renegotiate our trade deal yet again. Get Brexit done, yet again. It will all happen but cost more and take longer than it would have done because we've "taken back control" of something. we will need renegotiate Brexit again? Why? " The terms for the rules of origin of vehicles to avoid a tariff under the Trade and Cooperation Agreement. Something that industry has been raising for years. Are you going to say that this a "post Brexit" deal and nothing to do with Brexit at all? | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law The USA has moved to encourage domestic battery and vehicle production through IRA. The EU has rolled back state aid rules for the same reason. Both places have lots of financial firepower to subsidise the set-up of such huge investments. We do not have that scale anymore. Nissan received something the region of £120m in subsidies for their (relatively modest) factory. Tata are apparently asking for £500m and something for the steel plant. If we want to maintain our car industry then we will have to cough up with several years before it's up and running. However it seeds a lot of jobs from lithium mining to refining, anode, cathode and cell manufacture to recycling. Brexit meant that we have spent the last few years distracted with unforced internal chaos and external posturing so are coming to this much later than we should have. We are going to have to renegotiate our trade deal yet again. Get Brexit done, yet again. It will all happen but cost more and take longer than it would have done because we've "taken back control" of something. we will need renegotiate Brexit again? Why? The terms for the rules of origin of vehicles to avoid a tariff under the Trade and Cooperation Agreement. Something that industry has been raising for years. Are you going to say that this a "post Brexit" deal and nothing to do with Brexit at all? "The reciprocal terms that the EU and UK have agreed for the tariff | |||
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"The USA has moved to encourage domestic battery and vehicle production through IRA. The EU has rolled back state aid rules for the same reason. ... We are going to have to renegotiate our trade deal yet again. Get Brexit done, yet again. It will all happen but cost more and take longer than it would have done because we've "taken back control" of something." "As you say, this is all happening because the USA have introduced a new protectionist law to aid their car manufacturers. Do you really think that the Brexit negotiators should have foreseen this, and put suitable measures in place? Or is it perfectly fine to renegotiate trade deals when both sides will benefit from it?" "You've missed the point, I think. There would not be anything to renegotiate at all without Brexit. There would not be any additional time, money and effort spent to stand still. This after renegotiating the Northern Ireland protocol and the assembly still not sitting there as a consequence. Nobody foresaw anything because there was no plan. Renegotiating international treaties is a long way from normal because they are complicated and particularly with the politics in this matter highly emotive." Ah. So you weren't intending to add anything to the discussion about car production and trade tariffs, the point of your post was just to moan about Brexit. Got it. | |||
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"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law The USA has moved to encourage domestic battery and vehicle production through IRA. The EU has rolled back state aid rules for the same reason. Both places have lots of financial firepower to subsidise the set-up of such huge investments. We do not have that scale anymore. Nissan received something the region of £120m in subsidies for their (relatively modest) factory. Tata are apparently asking for £500m and something for the steel plant. If we want to maintain our car industry then we will have to cough up with several years before it's up and running. However it seeds a lot of jobs from lithium mining to refining, anode, cathode and cell manufacture to recycling. Brexit meant that we have spent the last few years distracted with unforced internal chaos and external posturing so are coming to this much later than we should have. We are going to have to renegotiate our trade deal yet again. Get Brexit done, yet again. It will all happen but cost more and take longer than it would have done because we've "taken back control" of something. we will need renegotiate Brexit again? Why? The terms for the rules of origin of vehicles to avoid a tariff under the Trade and Cooperation Agreement. Something that industry has been raising for years. Are you going to say that this a "post Brexit" deal and nothing to do with Brexit at all?
The reciprocal terms that the EU and UK have agreed for the tariff"Which exists because of Brexit. Reciprocal Brexit terms that need renegotiating. What's your point? It's not to do with Brexit or it doesn't need renegotiating? Something else which is yet to be defined? Please note the question marks. | |||
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"The USA has moved to encourage domestic battery and vehicle production through IRA. The EU has rolled back state aid rules for the same reason. ... We are going to have to renegotiate our trade deal yet again. Get Brexit done, yet again. It will all happen but cost more and take longer than it would have done because we've "taken back control" of something. As you say, this is all happening because the USA have introduced a new protectionist law to aid their car manufacturers. Do you really think that the Brexit negotiators should have foreseen this, and put suitable measures in place? Or is it perfectly fine to renegotiate trade deals when both sides will benefit from it? You've missed the point, I think. There would not be anything to renegotiate at all without Brexit. There would not be any additional time, money and effort spent to stand still. This after renegotiating the Northern Ireland protocol and the assembly still not sitting there as a consequence. Nobody foresaw anything because there was no plan. Renegotiating international treaties is a long way from normal because they are complicated and particularly with the politics in this matter highly emotive. Ah. So you weren't intending to add anything to the discussion about car production and trade tariffs, the point of your post was just to moan about Brexit. Got it." What? We have had to renegotiate a trade agreement almost annually since it was signed. That is not normal. It takes time, costs money and causes political and business distraction and instability. I've said that it would get done. It will take time and have a direct and indirect cost. Our abstract "control" is not helpful. That is partly a summary of the circumstances and partly a comment on Brexit proving to create more problems than benefits once again. I have also discussed the high levels of funding available for setting up battery manufacturing in the USA and EU and that our pockets are not as deep in absolute terms. Ramping up manufacturing for entire new industries from scratch is expensive in absolute terms and investment will follow that money, putting us at a disadvantage. What has your contribution been? Why did you post? | |||
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"We have had to renegotiate a trade agreement almost annually since it was signed. That is not normal. It takes time, costs money and causes political and business distraction and instability. ..." Still moaning about Brexit instead of discussing the issue. "What has your contribution been? Why did you post?" To try to get the discussion back onto car manufacturing and trade discussions. Sadly, I failed. | |||
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"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law The USA has moved to encourage domestic battery and vehicle production through IRA. The EU has rolled back state aid rules for the same reason. Both places have lots of financial firepower to subsidise the set-up of such huge investments. We do not have that scale anymore. Nissan received something the region of £120m in subsidies for their (relatively modest) factory. Tata are apparently asking for £500m and something for the steel plant. If we want to maintain our car industry then we will have to cough up with several years before it's up and running. However it seeds a lot of jobs from lithium mining to refining, anode, cathode and cell manufacture to recycling. Brexit meant that we have spent the last few years distracted with unforced internal chaos and external posturing so are coming to this much later than we should have. We are going to have to renegotiate our trade deal yet again. Get Brexit done, yet again. It will all happen but cost more and take longer than it would have done because we've "taken back control" of something. we will need renegotiate Brexit again? Why? The terms for the rules of origin of vehicles to avoid a tariff under the Trade and Cooperation Agreement. Something that industry has been raising for years. Are you going to say that this a "post Brexit" deal and nothing to do with Brexit at all?
The reciprocal terms that the EU and UK have agreed for the tariff
Which exists because of Brexit. Reciprocal Brexit terms that need renegotiating.
What's your point? It's not to do with Brexit or it doesn't need renegotiating? Something else which is yet to be defined?
Please note the question marks."You do know we left the EU sometime time ago now don’t you? The tariff is reciprocal and will simply be delayed for the very obvious reasons. If you looked at the issue for what it actually is rather than trying to make everything “because of Brexit” as you say, you might become less confused | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law The USA has moved to encourage domestic battery and vehicle production through IRA. The EU has rolled back state aid rules for the same reason. Both places have lots of financial firepower to subsidise the set-up of such huge investments. We do not have that scale anymore. Nissan received something the region of £120m in subsidies for their (relatively modest) factory. Tata are apparently asking for £500m and something for the steel plant. If we want to maintain our car industry then we will have to cough up with several years before it's up and running. However it seeds a lot of jobs from lithium mining to refining, anode, cathode and cell manufacture to recycling. Brexit meant that we have spent the last few years distracted with unforced internal chaos and external posturing so are coming to this much later than we should have. We are going to have to renegotiate our trade deal yet again. Get Brexit done, yet again. It will all happen but cost more and take longer than it would have done because we've "taken back control" of something. we will need renegotiate Brexit again? Why? The terms for the rules of origin of vehicles to avoid a tariff under the Trade and Cooperation Agreement. Something that industry has been raising for years. Are you going to say that this a "post Brexit" deal and nothing to do with Brexit at all?
The reciprocal terms that the EU and UK have agreed for the tariff
Which exists because of Brexit. Reciprocal Brexit terms that need renegotiating.
What's your point? It's not to do with Brexit or it doesn't need renegotiating? Something else which is yet to be defined?
Please note the question marks.
You do know we left the EU sometime time ago now don’t you?
The tariff is reciprocal and will simply be delayed for the very obvious reasons.
If you looked at the issue for what it actually is rather than trying to make everything “because of Brexit” as you say, you might become less confused
"It is "because of Brexit". There is no benefit in pretending that it is independent of that because of the political and emotive consequences as well as the economic reality which in turn feed through to any negotiations. I have already stated that there will be a successful negotiation. Did you miss that? Do you disagree? The EU is now an economic competitor. A long negotiation will not cause a problem for the EU. The reality is that it will lead to a delay in committing to investment in the UK, not in the EU. We will end up paying more for any battery facilities that we do eventually get as a risk premium and because we are not as attractive a location due to our relative isolation. Is that adequate "clarity" for you? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"We have had to renegotiate a trade agreement almost annually since it was signed. That is not normal. It takes time, costs money and causes political and business distraction and instability. ... Still moaning about Brexit instead of discussing the issue. What has your contribution been? Why did you post? To try to get the discussion back onto car manufacturing and trade discussions. Sadly, I failed." Sadly, you have not made any contribution yet. Is it normal to renegotiate trade agreements so soon and so frequently? Does that create a stable investment landscape? Is it a suprise to the automotive industry that this is happening? The legislation for the end of combustion car sales was proposed in 2017, well before any negotiations were finalised. Why hasn't our Government being doing anything substantive until pushed? Do some research and write something about car manufacturing and trade. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law The USA has moved to encourage domestic battery and vehicle production through IRA. The EU has rolled back state aid rules for the same reason. Both places have lots of financial firepower to subsidise the set-up of such huge investments. We do not have that scale anymore. Nissan received something the region of £120m in subsidies for their (relatively modest) factory. Tata are apparently asking for £500m and something for the steel plant. If we want to maintain our car industry then we will have to cough up with several years before it's up and running. However it seeds a lot of jobs from lithium mining to refining, anode, cathode and cell manufacture to recycling. Brexit meant that we have spent the last few years distracted with unforced internal chaos and external posturing so are coming to this much later than we should have. We are going to have to renegotiate our trade deal yet again. Get Brexit done, yet again. It will all happen but cost more and take longer than it would have done because we've "taken back control" of something. we will need renegotiate Brexit again? Why? The terms for the rules of origin of vehicles to avoid a tariff under the Trade and Cooperation Agreement. Something that industry has been raising for years. Are you going to say that this a "post Brexit" deal and nothing to do with Brexit at all?
The reciprocal terms that the EU and UK have agreed for the tariff
Which exists because of Brexit. Reciprocal Brexit terms that need renegotiating.
What's your point? It's not to do with Brexit or it doesn't need renegotiating? Something else which is yet to be defined?
Please note the question marks.
You do know we left the EU sometime time ago now don’t you?
The tariff is reciprocal and will simply be delayed for the very obvious reasons.
If you looked at the issue for what it actually is rather than trying to make everything “because of Brexit” as you say, you might become less confused
It is "because of Brexit". There is no benefit in pretending that it is independent of that because of the political and emotive consequences as well as the economic reality which in turn feed through to any negotiations.
I have already stated that there will be a successful negotiation. Did you miss that? Do you disagree?
The EU is now an economic competitor. A long negotiation will not cause a problem for the EU. The reality is that it will lead to a delay in committing to investment in the UK, not in the EU. We will end up paying more for any battery facilities that we do eventually get as a risk premium and because we are not as attractive a location due to our relative isolation.
Is that adequate "clarity" for you?"I find resentment over clarity, but that is whatI have come to expect. This might come as a shock and I did hint at the this in an earlier post, everyone knows we need to negotiate and renegotiate with our EU friends after the people of the UK voted to leave the bloc. If ranting about it and spelling it out gets it off your chest, go for it, but as I've mentioned we all know brexit has changed things. So take that way from all your posts and we end in mutual agreement that there will be a stall on the tariff because it makes perfect sense to do that. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law The USA has moved to encourage domestic battery and vehicle production through IRA. The EU has rolled back state aid rules for the same reason. Both places have lots of financial firepower to subsidise the set-up of such huge investments. We do not have that scale anymore. Nissan received something the region of £120m in subsidies for their (relatively modest) factory. Tata are apparently asking for £500m and something for the steel plant. If we want to maintain our car industry then we will have to cough up with several years before it's up and running. However it seeds a lot of jobs from lithium mining to refining, anode, cathode and cell manufacture to recycling. Brexit meant that we have spent the last few years distracted with unforced internal chaos and external posturing so are coming to this much later than we should have. We are going to have to renegotiate our trade deal yet again. Get Brexit done, yet again. It will all happen but cost more and take longer than it would have done because we've "taken back control" of something. we will need renegotiate Brexit again? Why? The terms for the rules of origin of vehicles to avoid a tariff under the Trade and Cooperation Agreement. Something that industry has been raising for years. Are you going to say that this a "post Brexit" deal and nothing to do with Brexit at all?
The reciprocal terms that the EU and UK have agreed for the tariff
Which exists because of Brexit. Reciprocal Brexit terms that need renegotiating.
What's your point? It's not to do with Brexit or it doesn't need renegotiating? Something else which is yet to be defined?
Please note the question marks.
You do know we left the EU sometime time ago now don’t you?
The tariff is reciprocal and will simply be delayed for the very obvious reasons.
If you looked at the issue for what it actually is rather than trying to make everything “because of Brexit” as you say, you might become less confused
It is "because of Brexit". There is no benefit in pretending that it is independent of that because of the political and emotive consequences as well as the economic reality which in turn feed through to any negotiations.
I have already stated that there will be a successful negotiation. Did you miss that? Do you disagree?
The EU is now an economic competitor. A long negotiation will not cause a problem for the EU. The reality is that it will lead to a delay in committing to investment in the UK, not in the EU. We will end up paying more for any battery facilities that we do eventually get as a risk premium and because we are not as attractive a location due to our relative isolation.
Is that adequate "clarity" for you?
I find resentment over clarity, but that is whatI have come to expect.
This might come as a shock and I did hint at the this in an earlier post, everyone knows we need to negotiate and renegotiate with our EU friends after the people of the UK voted to leave the bloc.
If ranting about it and spelling it out gets it off your chest, go for it, but as I've mentioned we all know brexit has changed things.
So take that way from all your posts and we end in mutual agreement that there will be a stall on the tariff because it makes perfect sense to do that.
"Well done in agreeing. What was the purpose in the steps in-between? It is not usually necessary to be continually renegotiating the same thing even though that is what we seem to have to do. There are costs and delays to having to do that. Pointing out the economic reality of that is not "ranting". It is certainly more useful in understanding the circumstances that we will have to work within than not saying anything about it. Assuming that there was no problem is why this matter has "suddenly" become a problem. The automotive industry has been saying there was a problem with UK battery supply for years. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law The USA has moved to encourage domestic battery and vehicle production through IRA. The EU has rolled back state aid rules for the same reason. Both places have lots of financial firepower to subsidise the set-up of such huge investments. We do not have that scale anymore. Nissan received something the region of £120m in subsidies for their (relatively modest) factory. Tata are apparently asking for £500m and something for the steel plant. If we want to maintain our car industry then we will have to cough up with several years before it's up and running. However it seeds a lot of jobs from lithium mining to refining, anode, cathode and cell manufacture to recycling. Brexit meant that we have spent the last few years distracted with unforced internal chaos and external posturing so are coming to this much later than we should have. We are going to have to renegotiate our trade deal yet again. Get Brexit done, yet again. It will all happen but cost more and take longer than it would have done because we've "taken back control" of something. we will need renegotiate Brexit again? Why? The terms for the rules of origin of vehicles to avoid a tariff under the Trade and Cooperation Agreement. Something that industry has been raising for years. Are you going to say that this a "post Brexit" deal and nothing to do with Brexit at all?
The reciprocal terms that the EU and UK have agreed for the tariff
Which exists because of Brexit. Reciprocal Brexit terms that need renegotiating.
What's your point? It's not to do with Brexit or it doesn't need renegotiating? Something else which is yet to be defined?
Please note the question marks.
You do know we left the EU sometime time ago now don’t you?
The tariff is reciprocal and will simply be delayed for the very obvious reasons.
If you looked at the issue for what it actually is rather than trying to make everything “because of Brexit” as you say, you might become less confused
It is "because of Brexit". There is no benefit in pretending that it is independent of that because of the political and emotive consequences as well as the economic reality which in turn feed through to any negotiations.
I have already stated that there will be a successful negotiation. Did you miss that? Do you disagree?
The EU is now an economic competitor. A long negotiation will not cause a problem for the EU. The reality is that it will lead to a delay in committing to investment in the UK, not in the EU. We will end up paying more for any battery facilities that we do eventually get as a risk premium and because we are not as attractive a location due to our relative isolation.
Is that adequate "clarity" for you?
I find resentment over clarity, but that is whatI have come to expect.
This might come as a shock and I did hint at the this in an earlier post, everyone knows we need to negotiate and renegotiate with our EU friends after the people of the UK voted to leave the bloc.
If ranting about it and spelling it out gets it off your chest, go for it, but as I've mentioned we all know brexit has changed things.
So take that way from all your posts and we end in mutual agreement that there will be a stall on the tariff because it makes perfect sense to do that.
Well done in agreeing. What was the purpose in the steps in-between?
It is not usually necessary to be continually renegotiating the same thing even though that is what we seem to have to do.
There are costs and delays to having to do that.
Pointing out the economic reality of that is not "ranting". It is certainly more useful in understanding the circumstances that we will have to work within than not saying anything about it. Assuming that there was no problem is why this matter has "suddenly" become a problem. The automotive industry has been saying there was a problem with UK battery supply for years."I was clear that there was going to be an obvious stall from the start, you jumped on brexit and you even predicted my answer followed by a huge grinning face. As I said if you can leave the B word at the door, we could move along so much quicker. EV batteries: Not an EU problem or a US problem, just a UK problem? Fire away, I'm all ears | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Round and round we go "It is a little like ground hog day. Morning, BREXIT's fault! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Round and round we go
It is a little like ground hog day.
Morning, BREXIT's fault! "Does it ever bore you? I know it does me | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Round and round we go
It is a little like ground hog day.
Morning, BREXIT's fault!
Does it ever bore you? I know it does me "Terribly! and I blame Brexit | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Round and round we go
It is a little like ground hog day.
Morning, BREXIT's fault!
Does it ever bore you? I know it does me
Terribly! and I blame Brexit "I am going to just blaming everything over here on Brexit. It's seems Trendy. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Round and round we go
It is a little like ground hog day.
Morning, BREXIT's fault!
Does it ever bore you? I know it does me
Terribly! and I blame Brexit I am going to just blaming everything over here on Brexit. It's seems Trendy. "If someone started a thread titled "what is not brexit's fault" in theory it should have zero replies. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Round and round we go
It is a little like ground hog day.
Morning, BREXIT's fault! "It will be interesting to see where Tata decide to build their new 'Gigafactory'. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Round and round we go
It is a little like ground hog day.
Morning, BREXIT's fault!
Does it ever bore you? I know it does me
Terribly! and I blame Brexit " | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Round and round we go
It is a little like ground hog day.
Morning, BREXIT's fault!
It will be interesting to see where Tata decide to build their new 'Gigafactory'. "If they do choose Somerset we will be told its only because the government have given them X amount of money. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law The USA has moved to encourage domestic battery and vehicle production through IRA. The EU has rolled back state aid rules for the same reason. Both places have lots of financial firepower to subsidise the set-up of such huge investments. We do not have that scale anymore. Nissan received something the region of £120m in subsidies for their (relatively modest) factory. Tata are apparently asking for £500m and something for the steel plant. If we want to maintain our car industry then we will have to cough up with several years before it's up and running. However it seeds a lot of jobs from lithium mining to refining, anode, cathode and cell manufacture to recycling. Brexit meant that we have spent the last few years distracted with unforced internal chaos and external posturing so are coming to this much later than we should have. We are going to have to renegotiate our trade deal yet again. Get Brexit done, yet again. It will all happen but cost more and take longer than it would have done because we've "taken back control" of something. we will need renegotiate Brexit again? Why? The terms for the rules of origin of vehicles to avoid a tariff under the Trade and Cooperation Agreement. Something that industry has been raising for years. Are you going to say that this a "post Brexit" deal and nothing to do with Brexit at all?
The reciprocal terms that the EU and UK have agreed for the tariff
Which exists because of Brexit. Reciprocal Brexit terms that need renegotiating.
What's your point? It's not to do with Brexit or it doesn't need renegotiating? Something else which is yet to be defined?
Please note the question marks.
You do know we left the EU sometime time ago now don’t you?
The tariff is reciprocal and will simply be delayed for the very obvious reasons.
If you looked at the issue for what it actually is rather than trying to make everything “because of Brexit” as you say, you might become less confused
It is "because of Brexit". There is no benefit in pretending that it is independent of that because of the political and emotive consequences as well as the economic reality which in turn feed through to any negotiations.
I have already stated that there will be a successful negotiation. Did you miss that? Do you disagree?
The EU is now an economic competitor. A long negotiation will not cause a problem for the EU. The reality is that it will lead to a delay in committing to investment in the UK, not in the EU. We will end up paying more for any battery facilities that we do eventually get as a risk premium and because we are not as attractive a location due to our relative isolation.
Is that adequate "clarity" for you?
I find resentment over clarity, but that is whatI have come to expect.
This might come as a shock and I did hint at the this in an earlier post, everyone knows we need to negotiate and renegotiate with our EU friends after the people of the UK voted to leave the bloc.
If ranting about it and spelling it out gets it off your chest, go for it, but as I've mentioned we all know brexit has changed things.
So take that way from all your posts and we end in mutual agreement that there will be a stall on the tariff because it makes perfect sense to do that.
Well done in agreeing. What was the purpose in the steps in-between?
It is not usually necessary to be continually renegotiating the same thing even though that is what we seem to have to do.
There are costs and delays to having to do that.
Pointing out the economic reality of that is not "ranting". It is certainly more useful in understanding the circumstances that we will have to work within than not saying anything about it. Assuming that there was no problem is why this matter has "suddenly" become a problem. The automotive industry has been saying there was a problem with UK battery supply for years.
I was clear that there was going to be an obvious stall from the start, you jumped on brexit and you even predicted my answer followed by a huge grinning face. As I said if you can leave the B word at the door, we could move along so much quicker.
EV batteries:
Not an EU problem or a US problem, just a UK problem? Fire away, I'm all ears
"A much bigger problem for the UK because we are a much smaller market to create a domestic battery ecosystem within. We are, apparently, now having to offer JLR £500m in subsidies for one factory. The EU is offering €6bn plus individual national subsidies and financing via the European Investment Bank for 35 with 7 already underway. IRA is driving similar investments in the US. We are just thinking about getting started. Brexit is part of it however much you want to pretend otherwise because it continues to prevent the UK from having a more sensible relationship with the EU due to our press and sections of our Government. Are you listening with your ears or are they closed? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law The USA has moved to encourage domestic battery and vehicle production through IRA. The EU has rolled back state aid rules for the same reason. Both places have lots of financial firepower to subsidise the set-up of such huge investments. We do not have that scale anymore. Nissan received something the region of £120m in subsidies for their (relatively modest) factory. Tata are apparently asking for £500m and something for the steel plant. If we want to maintain our car industry then we will have to cough up with several years before it's up and running. However it seeds a lot of jobs from lithium mining to refining, anode, cathode and cell manufacture to recycling. Brexit meant that we have spent the last few years distracted with unforced internal chaos and external posturing so are coming to this much later than we should have. We are going to have to renegotiate our trade deal yet again. Get Brexit done, yet again. It will all happen but cost more and take longer than it would have done because we've "taken back control" of something. we will need renegotiate Brexit again? Why? The terms for the rules of origin of vehicles to avoid a tariff under the Trade and Cooperation Agreement. Something that industry has been raising for years. Are you going to say that this a "post Brexit" deal and nothing to do with Brexit at all?
The reciprocal terms that the EU and UK have agreed for the tariff
Which exists because of Brexit. Reciprocal Brexit terms that need renegotiating.
What's your point? It's not to do with Brexit or it doesn't need renegotiating? Something else which is yet to be defined?
Please note the question marks.
You do know we left the EU sometime time ago now don’t you?
The tariff is reciprocal and will simply be delayed for the very obvious reasons.
If you looked at the issue for what it actually is rather than trying to make everything “because of Brexit” as you say, you might become less confused
It is "because of Brexit". There is no benefit in pretending that it is independent of that because of the political and emotive consequences as well as the economic reality which in turn feed through to any negotiations.
I have already stated that there will be a successful negotiation. Did you miss that? Do you disagree?
The EU is now an economic competitor. A long negotiation will not cause a problem for the EU. The reality is that it will lead to a delay in committing to investment in the UK, not in the EU. We will end up paying more for any battery facilities that we do eventually get as a risk premium and because we are not as attractive a location due to our relative isolation.
Is that adequate "clarity" for you?
I find resentment over clarity, but that is whatI have come to expect.
This might come as a shock and I did hint at the this in an earlier post, everyone knows we need to negotiate and renegotiate with our EU friends after the people of the UK voted to leave the bloc.
If ranting about it and spelling it out gets it off your chest, go for it, but as I've mentioned we all know brexit has changed things.
So take that way from all your posts and we end in mutual agreement that there will be a stall on the tariff because it makes perfect sense to do that.
Well done in agreeing. What was the purpose in the steps in-between?
It is not usually necessary to be continually renegotiating the same thing even though that is what we seem to have to do.
There are costs and delays to having to do that.
Pointing out the economic reality of that is not "ranting". It is certainly more useful in understanding the circumstances that we will have to work within than not saying anything about it. Assuming that there was no problem is why this matter has "suddenly" become a problem. The automotive industry has been saying there was a problem with UK battery supply for years.
I was clear that there was going to be an obvious stall from the start, you jumped on brexit and you even predicted my answer followed by a huge grinning face. As I said if you can leave the B word at the door, we could move along so much quicker.
EV batteries:
Not an EU problem or a US problem, just a UK problem? Fire away, I'm all ears
A much bigger problem for the UK because we are a much smaller market to create a domestic battery ecosystem within.
We are, apparently, now having to offer JLR £500m in subsidies for one factory. The EU is offering €6bn plus individual national subsidies and financing via the European Investment Bank for 35 with 7 already underway. IRA is driving similar investments in the US.
We are just thinking about getting started.
Brexit is part of it however much you want to pretend otherwise because it continues to prevent the UK from having a more sensible relationship with the EU due to our press and sections of our Government.
Are you listening with your ears or are they closed?"Do-Re-Mi Let's start at the very beginning A very good place to start When you read, you begin with A-B-C When you whinge, you begin with Br-ex-it When you say we are just thinking of getting started, is it a nationally owned venture? The 500 million to Tata as an incentive to build in the UK, do you think Tata will go to Spain and say can you up the offer? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Round and round we go
It is a little like ground hog day.
Morning, BREXIT's fault!
It will be interesting to see where Tata decide to build their new 'Gigafactory'. "They want £500 million to build it in Britain | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" It will be interesting to see where Tata decide to build their new 'Gigafactory'. They want £500 million to build it in Britain " Peanuts, in the grand scheme of things. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" It will be interesting to see where Tata decide to build their new 'Gigafactory'. They want £500 million to build it in Britain Peanuts, in the grand scheme of things." It’s only ‘peanuts’ if they make a profit on the investment , | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law The USA has moved to encourage domestic battery and vehicle production through IRA. The EU has rolled back state aid rules for the same reason. Both places have lots of financial firepower to subsidise the set-up of such huge investments. We do not have that scale anymore. Nissan received something the region of £120m in subsidies for their (relatively modest) factory. Tata are apparently asking for £500m and something for the steel plant. If we want to maintain our car industry then we will have to cough up with several years before it's up and running. However it seeds a lot of jobs from lithium mining to refining, anode, cathode and cell manufacture to recycling. Brexit meant that we have spent the last few years distracted with unforced internal chaos and external posturing so are coming to this much later than we should have. We are going to have to renegotiate our trade deal yet again. Get Brexit done, yet again. It will all happen but cost more and take longer than it would have done because we've "taken back control" of something. we will need renegotiate Brexit again? Why? The terms for the rules of origin of vehicles to avoid a tariff under the Trade and Cooperation Agreement. Something that industry has been raising for years. Are you going to say that this a "post Brexit" deal and nothing to do with Brexit at all?
The reciprocal terms that the EU and UK have agreed for the tariff
Which exists because of Brexit. Reciprocal Brexit terms that need renegotiating.
What's your point? It's not to do with Brexit or it doesn't need renegotiating? Something else which is yet to be defined?
Please note the question marks.
You do know we left the EU sometime time ago now don’t you?
The tariff is reciprocal and will simply be delayed for the very obvious reasons.
If you looked at the issue for what it actually is rather than trying to make everything “because of Brexit” as you say, you might become less confused
It is "because of Brexit". There is no benefit in pretending that it is independent of that because of the political and emotive consequences as well as the economic reality which in turn feed through to any negotiations.
I have already stated that there will be a successful negotiation. Did you miss that? Do you disagree?
The EU is now an economic competitor. A long negotiation will not cause a problem for the EU. The reality is that it will lead to a delay in committing to investment in the UK, not in the EU. We will end up paying more for any battery facilities that we do eventually get as a risk premium and because we are not as attractive a location due to our relative isolation.
Is that adequate "clarity" for you?
I find resentment over clarity, but that is whatI have come to expect.
This might come as a shock and I did hint at the this in an earlier post, everyone knows we need to negotiate and renegotiate with our EU friends after the people of the UK voted to leave the bloc.
If ranting about it and spelling it out gets it off your chest, go for it, but as I've mentioned we all know brexit has changed things.
So take that way from all your posts and we end in mutual agreement that there will be a stall on the tariff because it makes perfect sense to do that.
Well done in agreeing. What was the purpose in the steps in-between?
It is not usually necessary to be continually renegotiating the same thing even though that is what we seem to have to do.
There are costs and delays to having to do that.
Pointing out the economic reality of that is not "ranting". It is certainly more useful in understanding the circumstances that we will have to work within than not saying anything about it. Assuming that there was no problem is why this matter has "suddenly" become a problem. The automotive industry has been saying there was a problem with UK battery supply for years.
I was clear that there was going to be an obvious stall from the start, you jumped on brexit and you even predicted my answer followed by a huge grinning face. As I said if you can leave the B word at the door, we could move along so much quicker.
EV batteries:
Not an EU problem or a US problem, just a UK problem? Fire away, I'm all ears
A much bigger problem for the UK because we are a much smaller market to create a domestic battery ecosystem within.
We are, apparently, now having to offer JLR £500m in subsidies for one factory. The EU is offering €6bn plus individual national subsidies and financing via the European Investment Bank for 35 with 7 already underway. IRA is driving similar investments in the US.
We are just thinking about getting started.
Brexit is part of it however much you want to pretend otherwise because it continues to prevent the UK from having a more sensible relationship with the EU due to our press and sections of our Government.
Are you listening with your ears or are they closed?
Do-Re-Mi
Let's start at the very beginning
A very good place to start
When you read, you begin with A-B-C
When you whinge, you begin with Br-ex-it
When you say we are just thinking of getting started, is it a nationally owned venture?
The 500 million to Tata as an incentive to build in the UK, do you think Tata will go to Spain and say can you up the offer?
"Attempting to patronise me doesn't help your argument, whatever that might be. The EU has 7 in progress. Another 20+ in planning and negotiation. That scale also creates a pull for all of the industries in the supply chain and reduces prices overall making them more competitive than what we will do here as we will not be as plugged into that supply chain. So, again with literally years of warning from the automotive industry we indulged in internal and EU bashing politics whilst the EU was formulating a strategy and acting on it. Most likely Tata always intended to build here rather than Spain. Our failure to plan suits them as they are using our relative desperation to maximise their subsidy and probay get a side hustle for their steel factory too. The UK is spending £500m to attract one factory, having spent £130m for Nissan. What story does that tell potential investors? All that because we are a far more isolated trading nation. Are you really not able to see that politics and the press and industry will leverage Brexit and it's consequences for all sorts of reasons that do not benefit the UK in any way? You really think that Brexit is done and nothing is now influenced by it? I have no idea what point you are trying to make overall. What do you want to say? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" It will be interesting to see where Tata decide to build their new 'Gigafactory'. They want £500 million to build it in Britain Peanuts, in the grand scheme of things." It might well be but it sounds like a lot of money. Is it a bad thing though to invest this way. As others here say the EU is giving a few billion though obviously that is spread over several countries. Both the UK and EU motor trade want the upcoming changes delayed. Looking like Nissan's way of bringing the manufacturing to the UK is working for them so far | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" It will be interesting to see where Tata decide to build their new 'Gigafactory'. They want £500 million to build it in Britain Peanuts, in the grand scheme of things. It might well be but it sounds like a lot of money. Is it a bad thing though to invest this way. As others here say the EU is giving a few billion though obviously that is spread over several countries. Both the UK and EU motor trade want the upcoming changes delayed. Looking like Nissan's way of bringing the manufacturing to the UK is working for them so far" Nissan is disengaging from Renault, so they only have the UK factory in this continent now. Their European engineering centre is here too and design studio. They are a surprisingly British car company in many respects so they probably made their decision some time ago. If they do change their minds, they will still have a very valuable asset to sell. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law" Nobody was simple or stupid. They didn't believe politicians any more in 2016 than they do now. People believed what they chose to believe. They were suddenly told that they had to make a decision about something they hadn't cared much about for their entire lives. They had to pick a tribe, so they did. You could choose any version of Brexit that you wanted. Nothing changes but we don't have to give the EU any money anymore to we don't bother with the EU at all anymore because we can instantly have trade deals with the USA and Far East, to it doesn't matter if everything turns to crap because we are "in control". Staying in the EU was just staying in the EU, not "change". | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law The USA has moved to encourage domestic battery and vehicle production through IRA. The EU has rolled back state aid rules for the same reason. Both places have lots of financial firepower to subsidise the set-up of such huge investments. We do not have that scale anymore. Nissan received something the region of £120m in subsidies for their (relatively modest) factory. Tata are apparently asking for £500m and something for the steel plant. If we want to maintain our car industry then we will have to cough up with several years before it's up and running. However it seeds a lot of jobs from lithium mining to refining, anode, cathode and cell manufacture to recycling. Brexit meant that we have spent the last few years distracted with unforced internal chaos and external posturing so are coming to this much later than we should have. We are going to have to renegotiate our trade deal yet again. Get Brexit done, yet again. It will all happen but cost more and take longer than it would have done because we've "taken back control" of something. we will need renegotiate Brexit again? Why? The terms for the rules of origin of vehicles to avoid a tariff under the Trade and Cooperation Agreement. Something that industry has been raising for years. Are you going to say that this a "post Brexit" deal and nothing to do with Brexit at all?
The reciprocal terms that the EU and UK have agreed for the tariff
Which exists because of Brexit. Reciprocal Brexit terms that need renegotiating.
What's your point? It's not to do with Brexit or it doesn't need renegotiating? Something else which is yet to be defined?
Please note the question marks.
You do know we left the EU sometime time ago now don’t you?
The tariff is reciprocal and will simply be delayed for the very obvious reasons.
If you looked at the issue for what it actually is rather than trying to make everything “because of Brexit” as you say, you might become less confused
It is "because of Brexit". There is no benefit in pretending that it is independent of that because of the political and emotive consequences as well as the economic reality which in turn feed through to any negotiations.
I have already stated that there will be a successful negotiation. Did you miss that? Do you disagree?
The EU is now an economic competitor. A long negotiation will not cause a problem for the EU. The reality is that it will lead to a delay in committing to investment in the UK, not in the EU. We will end up paying more for any battery facilities that we do eventually get as a risk premium and because we are not as attractive a location due to our relative isolation.
Is that adequate "clarity" for you?
I find resentment over clarity, but that is whatI have come to expect.
This might come as a shock and I did hint at the this in an earlier post, everyone knows we need to negotiate and renegotiate with our EU friends after the people of the UK voted to leave the bloc.
If ranting about it and spelling it out gets it off your chest, go for it, but as I've mentioned we all know brexit has changed things.
So take that way from all your posts and we end in mutual agreement that there will be a stall on the tariff because it makes perfect sense to do that.
Well done in agreeing. What was the purpose in the steps in-between?
It is not usually necessary to be continually renegotiating the same thing even though that is what we seem to have to do.
There are costs and delays to having to do that.
Pointing out the economic reality of that is not "ranting". It is certainly more useful in understanding the circumstances that we will have to work within than not saying anything about it. Assuming that there was no problem is why this matter has "suddenly" become a problem. The automotive industry has been saying there was a problem with UK battery supply for years.
I was clear that there was going to be an obvious stall from the start, you jumped on brexit and you even predicted my answer followed by a huge grinning face. As I said if you can leave the B word at the door, we could move along so much quicker.
EV batteries:
Not an EU problem or a US problem, just a UK problem? Fire away, I'm all ears
A much bigger problem for the UK because we are a much smaller market to create a domestic battery ecosystem within.
We are, apparently, now having to offer JLR £500m in subsidies for one factory. The EU is offering €6bn plus individual national subsidies and financing via the European Investment Bank for 35 with 7 already underway. IRA is driving similar investments in the US.
We are just thinking about getting started.
Brexit is part of it however much you want to pretend otherwise because it continues to prevent the UK from having a more sensible relationship with the EU due to our press and sections of our Government.
Are you listening with your ears or are they closed?
Do-Re-Mi
Let's start at the very beginning
A very good place to start
When you read, you begin with A-B-C
When you whinge, you begin with Br-ex-it
When you say we are just thinking of getting started, is it a nationally owned venture?
The 500 million to Tata as an incentive to build in the UK, do you think Tata will go to Spain and say can you up the offer?
Attempting to patronise me doesn't help your argument, whatever that might be.
The EU has 7 in progress. Another 20+ in planning and negotiation. That scale also creates a pull for all of the industries in the supply chain and reduces prices overall making them more competitive than what we will do here as we will not be as plugged into that supply chain.
So, again with literally years of warning from the automotive industry we indulged in internal and EU bashing politics whilst the EU was formulating a strategy and acting on it.
Most likely Tata always intended to build here rather than Spain. Our failure to plan suits them as they are using our relative desperation to maximise their subsidy and probay get a side hustle for their steel factory too.
The UK is spending £500m to attract one factory, having spent £130m for Nissan. What story does that tell potential investors?
All that because we are a far more isolated trading nation.
Are you really not able to see that politics and the press and industry will leverage Brexit and it's consequences for all sorts of reasons that do not benefit the UK in any way?
You really think that Brexit is done and nothing is now influenced by it?
I have no idea what point you are trying to make overall. What do you want to say?"For the last time.. the tariff will will be scrapped. Our capacity to make batteries should not be measured EU or US, that’s downright ridiculous based on output. We need the battery manufacturing in the UK for the output of the product and that is it in a nutshell, no conflation of issues, simple. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law The USA has moved to encourage domestic battery and vehicle production through IRA. The EU has rolled back state aid rules for the same reason. Both places have lots of financial firepower to subsidise the set-up of such huge investments. We do not have that scale anymore. Nissan received something the region of £120m in subsidies for their (relatively modest) factory. Tata are apparently asking for £500m and something for the steel plant. If we want to maintain our car industry then we will have to cough up with several years before it's up and running. However it seeds a lot of jobs from lithium mining to refining, anode, cathode and cell manufacture to recycling. Brexit meant that we have spent the last few years distracted with unforced internal chaos and external posturing so are coming to this much later than we should have. We are going to have to renegotiate our trade deal yet again. Get Brexit done, yet again. It will all happen but cost more and take longer than it would have done because we've "taken back control" of something. we will need renegotiate Brexit again? Why? The terms for the rules of origin of vehicles to avoid a tariff under the Trade and Cooperation Agreement. Something that industry has been raising for years. Are you going to say that this a "post Brexit" deal and nothing to do with Brexit at all?
The reciprocal terms that the EU and UK have agreed for the tariff
Which exists because of Brexit. Reciprocal Brexit terms that need renegotiating.
What's your point? It's not to do with Brexit or it doesn't need renegotiating? Something else which is yet to be defined?
Please note the question marks.
You do know we left the EU sometime time ago now don’t you?
The tariff is reciprocal and will simply be delayed for the very obvious reasons.
If you looked at the issue for what it actually is rather than trying to make everything “because of Brexit” as you say, you might become less confused
It is "because of Brexit". There is no benefit in pretending that it is independent of that because of the political and emotive consequences as well as the economic reality which in turn feed through to any negotiations.
I have already stated that there will be a successful negotiation. Did you miss that? Do you disagree?
The EU is now an economic competitor. A long negotiation will not cause a problem for the EU. The reality is that it will lead to a delay in committing to investment in the UK, not in the EU. We will end up paying more for any battery facilities that we do eventually get as a risk premium and because we are not as attractive a location due to our relative isolation.
Is that adequate "clarity" for you?
I find resentment over clarity, but that is whatI have come to expect.
This might come as a shock and I did hint at the this in an earlier post, everyone knows we need to negotiate and renegotiate with our EU friends after the people of the UK voted to leave the bloc.
If ranting about it and spelling it out gets it off your chest, go for it, but as I've mentioned we all know brexit has changed things.
So take that way from all your posts and we end in mutual agreement that there will be a stall on the tariff because it makes perfect sense to do that.
Well done in agreeing. What was the purpose in the steps in-between?
It is not usually necessary to be continually renegotiating the same thing even though that is what we seem to have to do.
There are costs and delays to having to do that.
Pointing out the economic reality of that is not "ranting". It is certainly more useful in understanding the circumstances that we will have to work within than not saying anything about it. Assuming that there was no problem is why this matter has "suddenly" become a problem. The automotive industry has been saying there was a problem with UK battery supply for years.
I was clear that there was going to be an obvious stall from the start, you jumped on brexit and you even predicted my answer followed by a huge grinning face. As I said if you can leave the B word at the door, we could move along so much quicker.
EV batteries:
Not an EU problem or a US problem, just a UK problem? Fire away, I'm all ears
A much bigger problem for the UK because we are a much smaller market to create a domestic battery ecosystem within.
We are, apparently, now having to offer JLR £500m in subsidies for one factory. The EU is offering €6bn plus individual national subsidies and financing via the European Investment Bank for 35 with 7 already underway. IRA is driving similar investments in the US.
We are just thinking about getting started.
Brexit is part of it however much you want to pretend otherwise because it continues to prevent the UK from having a more sensible relationship with the EU due to our press and sections of our Government.
Are you listening with your ears or are they closed?
Do-Re-Mi
Let's start at the very beginning
A very good place to start
When you read, you begin with A-B-C
When you whinge, you begin with Br-ex-it
When you say we are just thinking of getting started, is it a nationally owned venture?
The 500 million to Tata as an incentive to build in the UK, do you think Tata will go to Spain and say can you up the offer?
Attempting to patronise me doesn't help your argument, whatever that might be.
The EU has 7 in progress. Another 20+ in planning and negotiation. That scale also creates a pull for all of the industries in the supply chain and reduces prices overall making them more competitive than what we will do here as we will not be as plugged into that supply chain.
So, again with literally years of warning from the automotive industry we indulged in internal and EU bashing politics whilst the EU was formulating a strategy and acting on it.
Most likely Tata always intended to build here rather than Spain. Our failure to plan suits them as they are using our relative desperation to maximise their subsidy and probay get a side hustle for their steel factory too.
The UK is spending £500m to attract one factory, having spent £130m for Nissan. What story does that tell potential investors?
All that because we are a far more isolated trading nation.
Are you really not able to see that politics and the press and industry will leverage Brexit and it's consequences for all sorts of reasons that do not benefit the UK in any way?
You really think that Brexit is done and nothing is now influenced by it?
I have no idea what point you are trying to make overall. What do you want to say?
For the last time.. the tariff will will be scrapped.
Our capacity to make batteries should not be measured EU or US, that’s downright ridiculous based on output.
We need the battery manufacturing in the UK for the output of the product and that is it in a nutshell, no conflation of issues, simple."Again,no idea what point you are making as I staged in my first post that a deal would be struck eventually. What are you actually trying so hard to argue about? It will not be "scrapped". It will be delayed. It will then be delayed again. Then we will import batteries from the EU. It is nothing to do with how many batteries we need. It is to do with how economic the supply chain is to make every element of a battery in the UK. I already stepped through the economies of scale that the EU will enjoy compared to us. More final battery production facilities, therefore more first and second tier suppliers who can invest in larger facilities.all of the elements in the supply chain will be cheaper than we manage in out relatively tiny market, so batteries will be cheaper and cars will be cheaper. We will have more expensive batteries and lower margins and be less competitive. Simple. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law The USA has moved to encourage domestic battery and vehicle production through IRA. The EU has rolled back state aid rules for the same reason. Both places have lots of financial firepower to subsidise the set-up of such huge investments. We do not have that scale anymore. Nissan received something the region of £120m in subsidies for their (relatively modest) factory. Tata are apparently asking for £500m and something for the steel plant. If we want to maintain our car industry then we will have to cough up with several years before it's up and running. However it seeds a lot of jobs from lithium mining to refining, anode, cathode and cell manufacture to recycling. Brexit meant that we have spent the last few years distracted with unforced internal chaos and external posturing so are coming to this much later than we should have. We are going to have to renegotiate our trade deal yet again. Get Brexit done, yet again. It will all happen but cost more and take longer than it would have done because we've "taken back control" of something. we will need renegotiate Brexit again? Why? The terms for the rules of origin of vehicles to avoid a tariff under the Trade and Cooperation Agreement. Something that industry has been raising for years. Are you going to say that this a "post Brexit" deal and nothing to do with Brexit at all?
The reciprocal terms that the EU and UK have agreed for the tariff
Which exists because of Brexit. Reciprocal Brexit terms that need renegotiating.
What's your point? It's not to do with Brexit or it doesn't need renegotiating? Something else which is yet to be defined?
Please note the question marks.
You do know we left the EU sometime time ago now don’t you?
The tariff is reciprocal and will simply be delayed for the very obvious reasons.
If you looked at the issue for what it actually is rather than trying to make everything “because of Brexit” as you say, you might become less confused
It is "because of Brexit". There is no benefit in pretending that it is independent of that because of the political and emotive consequences as well as the economic reality which in turn feed through to any negotiations.
I have already stated that there will be a successful negotiation. Did you miss that? Do you disagree?
The EU is now an economic competitor. A long negotiation will not cause a problem for the EU. The reality is that it will lead to a delay in committing to investment in the UK, not in the EU. We will end up paying more for any battery facilities that we do eventually get as a risk premium and because we are not as attractive a location due to our relative isolation.
Is that adequate "clarity" for you?
I find resentment over clarity, but that is whatI have come to expect.
This might come as a shock and I did hint at the this in an earlier post, everyone knows we need to negotiate and renegotiate with our EU friends after the people of the UK voted to leave the bloc.
If ranting about it and spelling it out gets it off your chest, go for it, but as I've mentioned we all know brexit has changed things.
So take that way from all your posts and we end in mutual agreement that there will be a stall on the tariff because it makes perfect sense to do that.
Well done in agreeing. What was the purpose in the steps in-between?
It is not usually necessary to be continually renegotiating the same thing even though that is what we seem to have to do.
There are costs and delays to having to do that.
Pointing out the economic reality of that is not "ranting". It is certainly more useful in understanding the circumstances that we will have to work within than not saying anything about it. Assuming that there was no problem is why this matter has "suddenly" become a problem. The automotive industry has been saying there was a problem with UK battery supply for years.
I was clear that there was going to be an obvious stall from the start, you jumped on brexit and you even predicted my answer followed by a huge grinning face. As I said if you can leave the B word at the door, we could move along so much quicker.
EV batteries:
Not an EU problem or a US problem, just a UK problem? Fire away, I'm all ears
A much bigger problem for the UK because we are a much smaller market to create a domestic battery ecosystem within.
We are, apparently, now having to offer JLR £500m in subsidies for one factory. The EU is offering €6bn plus individual national subsidies and financing via the European Investment Bank for 35 with 7 already underway. IRA is driving similar investments in the US.
We are just thinking about getting started.
Brexit is part of it however much you want to pretend otherwise because it continues to prevent the UK from having a more sensible relationship with the EU due to our press and sections of our Government.
Are you listening with your ears or are they closed?
Do-Re-Mi
Let's start at the very beginning
A very good place to start
When you read, you begin with A-B-C
When you whinge, you begin with Br-ex-it
When you say we are just thinking of getting started, is it a nationally owned venture?
The 500 million to Tata as an incentive to build in the UK, do you think Tata will go to Spain and say can you up the offer?
Attempting to patronise me doesn't help your argument, whatever that might be.
The EU has 7 in progress. Another 20+ in planning and negotiation. That scale also creates a pull for all of the industries in the supply chain and reduces prices overall making them more competitive than what we will do here as we will not be as plugged into that supply chain.
So, again with literally years of warning from the automotive industry we indulged in internal and EU bashing politics whilst the EU was formulating a strategy and acting on it.
Most likely Tata always intended to build here rather than Spain. Our failure to plan suits them as they are using our relative desperation to maximise their subsidy and probay get a side hustle for their steel factory too.
The UK is spending £500m to attract one factory, having spent £130m for Nissan. What story does that tell potential investors?
All that because we are a far more isolated trading nation.
Are you really not able to see that politics and the press and industry will leverage Brexit and it's consequences for all sorts of reasons that do not benefit the UK in any way?
You really think that Brexit is done and nothing is now influenced by it?
I have no idea what point you are trying to make overall. What do you want to say?
For the last time.. the tariff will will be scrapped.
Our capacity to make batteries should not be measured EU or US, that’s downright ridiculous based on output.
We need the battery manufacturing in the UK for the output of the product and that is it in a nutshell, no conflation of issues, simple.
Again,no idea what point you are making as I staged in my first post that a deal would be struck eventually. What are you actually trying so hard to argue about?
It will not be "scrapped". It will be delayed. It will then be delayed again. Then we will import batteries from the EU.
It is nothing to do with how many batteries we need. It is to do with how economic the supply chain is to make every element of a battery in the UK.
I already stepped through the economies of scale that the EU will enjoy compared to us. More final battery production facilities, therefore more first and second tier suppliers who can invest in larger facilities.all of the elements in the supply chain will be cheaper than we manage in out relatively tiny market, so batteries will be cheaper and cars will be cheaper.
We will have more expensive batteries and lower margins and be less competitive.
Simple."The conflation never ends. You never do get other peoples points, it is your thing, maybe something worth considering? On that note I think we have come to another harmonious end. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" It will be interesting to see where Tata decide to build their new 'Gigafactory'. They want £500 million to build it in Britain Peanuts, in the grand scheme of things. It might well be but it sounds like a lot of money. Is it a bad thing though to invest this way. As others here say the EU is giving a few billion though obviously that is spread over several countries. Both the UK and EU motor trade want the upcoming changes delayed. Looking like Nissan's way of bringing the manufacturing to the UK is working for them so far Nissan is disengaging from Renault, so they only have the UK factory in this continent now. Their European engineering centre is here too and design studio. They are a surprisingly British car company in many respects so they probably made their decision some time ago. If they do change their minds, they will still have a very valuable asset to sell." Yes surprisingly British and seem to have managed where Vauxhall have not. I don't know if the delay will happen but as the EU motor trade are calling for the same thing then I assume there is a chance at least. I did know about the Nissan places in the UK as one is not far from me and a friend works there. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Could someone ELI5 and correct my limited understanding. It appears to me there two issues flagged. First, is that if 65pc of the car has to be made in the UK and the EU and currently batteries aren't, then tarrifs will start to bite. And that's because ev us taking off and both have EU and UK are behind with batteries. So all companies are fucked here. (I assume that an EU car company can sell within eu without having to worry about origins? So this is just about EU/UK trade) Second sort is cost. It's more expensive to import batteries from the EU than if it was being built in the UK. So UK companies would be at a disadvantage even if all things were equal (eg no brexit) Close ? " The trade deal between UK and EU, all cars exported from the UK to EU or vice versa must source 40% of their parts by value from within countries within the trade deal, UK and EU. However, 1st Jan rises to 45%, and in 2027 it will rise to 55%. In my opinion this tariff will be paused as it serves no purpose right now. The long and short of this is to remove the reliance on China and bring a wider set of manufacturing opportunities and benefits closer to home. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Could someone ELI5 and correct my limited understanding. It appears to me there two issues flagged. First, is that if 65pc of the car has to be made in the UK and the EU and currently batteries aren't, then tarrifs will start to bite. And that's because ev us taking off and both have EU and UK are behind with batteries. So all companies are fucked here. (I assume that an EU car company can sell within eu without having to worry about origins? So this is just about EU/UK trade) Second sort is cost. It's more expensive to import batteries from the EU than if it was being built in the UK. So UK companies would be at a disadvantage even if all things were equal (eg no brexit) Close ? The trade deal between UK and EU, all cars exported from the UK to EU or vice versa must source 40% of their parts by value from within countries within the trade deal, UK and EU. However, 1st Jan rises to 45%, and in 2027 it will rise to 55%. In my opinion this tariff will be paused as it serves no purpose right now. The long and short of this is to remove the reliance on China and bring a wider set of manufacturing opportunities and benefits closer to home. " thx. And this increasing pc then causes an issues with wv because the batteries aren't EU/UK built, right ? Hence wanting to kick the pc can down the road. Does it affect intra EU sales ? Eg if a french car is 40pc EU, then there are tarrifs into the UK... But what about Germany? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Could someone ELI5 and correct my limited understanding. It appears to me there two issues flagged. First, is that if 65pc of the car has to be made in the UK and the EU and currently batteries aren't, then tarrifs will start to bite. And that's because ev us taking off and both have EU and UK are behind with batteries. So all companies are fucked here. (I assume that an EU car company can sell within eu without having to worry about origins? So this is just about EU/UK trade) Second sort is cost. It's more expensive to import batteries from the EU than if it was being built in the UK. So UK companies would be at a disadvantage even if all things were equal (eg no brexit) Close ? The trade deal between UK and EU, all cars exported from the UK to EU or vice versa must source 40% of their parts by value from within countries within the trade deal, UK and EU. However, 1st Jan rises to 45%, and in 2027 it will rise to 55%. In my opinion this tariff will be paused as it serves no purpose right now. The long and short of this is to remove the reliance on China and bring a wider set of manufacturing opportunities and benefits closer to home. thx. And this increasing pc then causes an issues with wv because the batteries aren't EU/UK built, right ? Hence wanting to kick the pc can down the road. Does it affect intra EU sales ? Eg if a french car is 40pc EU, then there are tarrifs into the UK... But what about Germany? " I forgot to add an important part! If the cars parts value does not meet the % of origin it will face a 10% tariff when they sell the product. You can find everything you need to know about this if you google "Trade and Cooperation Agreement" look for the .gov site and you will see the rules surrounding origins, tariffs ect under the UK - UE trading relationship. I believe car manufacturing will be dropped from the agreement until the infrastructures are in place to fulfil the agreement. | |||
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"Could someone ELI5 and correct my limited understanding. It appears to me there two issues flagged. First, is that if 65pc of the car has to be made in the UK and the EU and currently batteries aren't, then tarrifs will start to bite. And that's because ev us taking off and both have EU and UK are behind with batteries. So all companies are fucked here. (I assume that an EU car company can sell within eu without having to worry about origins? So this is just about EU/UK trade) Second sort is cost. It's more expensive to import batteries from the EU than if it was being built in the UK. So UK companies would be at a disadvantage even if all things were equal (eg no brexit) Close ? The trade deal between UK and EU, all cars exported from the UK to EU or vice versa must source 40% of their parts by value from within countries within the trade deal, UK and EU. However, 1st Jan rises to 45%, and in 2027 it will rise to 55%. In my opinion this tariff will be paused as it serves no purpose right now. The long and short of this is to remove the reliance on China and bring a wider set of manufacturing opportunities and benefits closer to home. thx. And this increasing pc then causes an issues with wv because the batteries aren't EU/UK built, right ? Hence wanting to kick the pc can down the road. Does it affect intra EU sales ? Eg if a french car is 40pc EU, then there are tarrifs into the UK... But what about Germany? I forgot to add an important part! If the cars parts value does not meet the % of origin it will face a 10% tariff when they sell the product. You can find everything you need to know about this if you google "Trade and Cooperation Agreement" look for the .gov site and you will see the rules surrounding origins, tariffs ect under the UK - UE trading relationship. I believe car manufacturing will be dropped from the agreement until the infrastructures are in place to fulfil the agreement. " yes, that's what I was assuming on the above. I still don't know for sure if a France to German sale of a car would incur a tarriff, if they fell below the riels of origin percentage. Understand that the France to UK would. | |||
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"Could someone ELI5 and correct my limited understanding. It appears to me there two issues flagged. First, is that if 65pc of the car has to be made in the UK and the EU and currently batteries aren't, then tarrifs will start to bite. And that's because ev us taking off and both have EU and UK are behind with batteries. So all companies are fucked here. (I assume that an EU car company can sell within eu without having to worry about origins? So this is just about EU/UK trade) Second sort is cost. It's more expensive to import batteries from the EU than if it was being built in the UK. So UK companies would be at a disadvantage even if all things were equal (eg no brexit) Close ? The trade deal between UK and EU, all cars exported from the UK to EU or vice versa must source 40% of their parts by value from within countries within the trade deal, UK and EU. However, 1st Jan rises to 45%, and in 2027 it will rise to 55%. In my opinion this tariff will be paused as it serves no purpose right now. The long and short of this is to remove the reliance on China and bring a wider set of manufacturing opportunities and benefits closer to home. thx. And this increasing pc then causes an issues with wv because the batteries aren't EU/UK built, right ? Hence wanting to kick the pc can down the road. Does it affect intra EU sales ? Eg if a french car is 40pc EU, then there are tarrifs into the UK... But what about Germany? I forgot to add an important part! If the cars parts value does not meet the % of origin it will face a 10% tariff when they sell the product. You can find everything you need to know about this if you google "Trade and Cooperation Agreement" look for the .gov site and you will see the rules surrounding origins, tariffs ect under the UK - UE trading relationship. I believe car manufacturing will be dropped from the agreement until the infrastructures are in place to fulfil the agreement. yes, that's what I was assuming on the above. I still don't know for sure if a France to German sale of a car would incur a tarriff, if they fell below the riels of origin percentage. Understand that the France to UK would. "The EU is the whole bloc | |||
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"Could someone ELI5 and correct my limited understanding. It appears to me there two issues flagged. First, is that if 65pc of the car has to be made in the UK and the EU and currently batteries aren't, then tarrifs will start to bite. And that's because ev us taking off and both have EU and UK are behind with batteries. So all companies are fucked here. (I assume that an EU car company can sell within eu without having to worry about origins? So this is just about EU/UK trade) Second sort is cost. It's more expensive to import batteries from the EU than if it was being built in the UK. So UK companies would be at a disadvantage even if all things were equal (eg no brexit) Close ? The trade deal between UK and EU, all cars exported from the UK to EU or vice versa must source 40% of their parts by value from within countries within the trade deal, UK and EU. However, 1st Jan rises to 45%, and in 2027 it will rise to 55%. In my opinion this tariff will be paused as it serves no purpose right now. The long and short of this is to remove the reliance on China and bring a wider set of manufacturing opportunities and benefits closer to home. thx. And this increasing pc then causes an issues with wv because the batteries aren't EU/UK built, right ? Hence wanting to kick the pc can down the road. Does it affect intra EU sales ? Eg if a french car is 40pc EU, then there are tarrifs into the UK... But what about Germany? I forgot to add an important part! If the cars parts value does not meet the % of origin it will face a 10% tariff when they sell the product. You can find everything you need to know about this if you google "Trade and Cooperation Agreement" look for the .gov site and you will see the rules surrounding origins, tariffs ect under the UK - UE trading relationship. I believe car manufacturing will be dropped from the agreement until the infrastructures are in place to fulfil the agreement. yes, that's what I was assuming on the above. I still don't know for sure if a France to German sale of a car would incur a tarriff, if they fell below the riels of origin percentage. Understand that the France to UK would.
The EU is the whole bloc"that's what I thought. I think I get why easy is saying this is brexit related. My first point (rules of origin) isn't an issue if we hadn't have left. | |||
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"Patrick Minford told a Parliamentary select committee in 2017 that Brexit would lead to the demise of the U.K. car industry, but that it should be something to be celebrated, not be worried about. In the latest bout of Brexit related bad news for the U.K. car industry, Vauxhall has asked the Government to renegotiate the Brexit deal or they would have to up sticks and move manufacturing to the EU. Seems that “rules of origin” is an important thing after all. Brexit was sold to simple people as being a simple solution to a whole myriad of complex problems. It’s time that those salespeople were held to account - in a Court of Law The USA has moved to encourage domestic battery and vehicle production through IRA. The EU has rolled back state aid rules for the same reason. Both places have lots of financial firepower to subsidise the set-up of such huge investments. We do not have that scale anymore. Nissan received something the region of £120m in subsidies for their (relatively modest) factory. Tata are apparently asking for £500m and something for the steel plant. If we want to maintain our car industry then we will have to cough up with several years before it's up and running. However it seeds a lot of jobs from lithium mining to refining, anode, cathode and cell manufacture to recycling. Brexit meant that we have spent the last few years distracted with unforced internal chaos and external posturing so are coming to this much later than we should have. We are going to have to renegotiate our trade deal yet again. Get Brexit done, yet again. It will all happen but cost more and take longer than it would have done because we've "taken back control" of something. we will need renegotiate Brexit again? Why? The terms for the rules of origin of vehicles to avoid a tariff under the Trade and Cooperation Agreement. Something that industry has been raising for years. Are you going to say that this a "post Brexit" deal and nothing to do with Brexit at all?
The reciprocal terms that the EU and UK have agreed for the tariff
Which exists because of Brexit. Reciprocal Brexit terms that need renegotiating.
What's your point? It's not to do with Brexit or it doesn't need renegotiating? Something else which is yet to be defined?
Please note the question marks.
You do know we left the EU sometime time ago now don’t you?
The tariff is reciprocal and will simply be delayed for the very obvious reasons.
If you looked at the issue for what it actually is rather than trying to make everything “because of Brexit” as you say, you might become less confused
It is "because of Brexit". There is no benefit in pretending that it is independent of that because of the political and emotive consequences as well as the economic reality which in turn feed through to any negotiations.
I have already stated that there will be a successful negotiation. Did you miss that? Do you disagree?
The EU is now an economic competitor. A long negotiation will not cause a problem for the EU. The reality is that it will lead to a delay in committing to investment in the UK, not in the EU. We will end up paying more for any battery facilities that we do eventually get as a risk premium and because we are not as attractive a location due to our relative isolation.
Is that adequate "clarity" for you?
I find resentment over clarity, but that is whatI have come to expect.
This might come as a shock and I did hint at the this in an earlier post, everyone knows we need to negotiate and renegotiate with our EU friends after the people of the UK voted to leave the bloc.
If ranting about it and spelling it out gets it off your chest, go for it, but as I've mentioned we all know brexit has changed things.
So take that way from all your posts and we end in mutual agreement that there will be a stall on the tariff because it makes perfect sense to do that.
Well done in agreeing. What was the purpose in the steps in-between?
It is not usually necessary to be continually renegotiating the same thing even though that is what we seem to have to do.
There are costs and delays to having to do that.
Pointing out the economic reality of that is not "ranting". It is certainly more useful in understanding the circumstances that we will have to work within than not saying anything about it. Assuming that there was no problem is why this matter has "suddenly" become a problem. The automotive industry has been saying there was a problem with UK battery supply for years.
I was clear that there was going to be an obvious stall from the start, you jumped on brexit and you even predicted my answer followed by a huge grinning face. As I said if you can leave the B word at the door, we could move along so much quicker.
EV batteries:
Not an EU problem or a US problem, just a UK problem? Fire away, I'm all ears
A much bigger problem for the UK because we are a much smaller market to create a domestic battery ecosystem within.
We are, apparently, now having to offer JLR £500m in subsidies for one factory. The EU is offering €6bn plus individual national subsidies and financing via the European Investment Bank for 35 with 7 already underway. IRA is driving similar investments in the US.
We are just thinking about getting started.
Brexit is part of it however much you want to pretend otherwise because it continues to prevent the UK from having a more sensible relationship with the EU due to our press and sections of our Government.
Are you listening with your ears or are they closed?
Do-Re-Mi
Let's start at the very beginning
A very good place to start
When you read, you begin with A-B-C
When you whinge, you begin with Br-ex-it
When you say we are just thinking of getting started, is it a nationally owned venture?
The 500 million to Tata as an incentive to build in the UK, do you think Tata will go to Spain and say can you up the offer?
Attempting to patronise me doesn't help your argument, whatever that might be.
The EU has 7 in progress. Another 20+ in planning and negotiation. That scale also creates a pull for all of the industries in the supply chain and reduces prices overall making them more competitive than what we will do here as we will not be as plugged into that supply chain.
So, again with literally years of warning from the automotive industry we indulged in internal and EU bashing politics whilst the EU was formulating a strategy and acting on it.
Most likely Tata always intended to build here rather than Spain. Our failure to plan suits them as they are using our relative desperation to maximise their subsidy and probay get a side hustle for their steel factory too.
The UK is spending £500m to attract one factory, having spent £130m for Nissan. What story does that tell potential investors?
All that because we are a far more isolated trading nation.
Are you really not able to see that politics and the press and industry will leverage Brexit and it's consequences for all sorts of reasons that do not benefit the UK in any way?
You really think that Brexit is done and nothing is now influenced by it?
I have no idea what point you are trying to make overall. What do you want to say?
For the last time.. the tariff will will be scrapped.
Our capacity to make batteries should not be measured EU or US, that’s downright ridiculous based on output.
We need the battery manufacturing in the UK for the output of the product and that is it in a nutshell, no conflation of issues, simple.
Again,no idea what point you are making as I staged in my first post that a deal would be struck eventually. What are you actually trying so hard to argue about?
It will not be "scrapped". It will be delayed. It will then be delayed again. Then we will import batteries from the EU.
It is nothing to do with how many batteries we need. It is to do with how economic the supply chain is to make every element of a battery in the UK.
I already stepped through the economies of scale that the EU will enjoy compared to us. More final battery production facilities, therefore more first and second tier suppliers who can invest in larger facilities.all of the elements in the supply chain will be cheaper than we manage in out relatively tiny market, so batteries will be cheaper and cars will be cheaper.
We will have more expensive batteries and lower margins and be less competitive.
Simple.
The conflation never ends.
You never do get other peoples points, it is your thing, maybe something worth considering? On that note I think we have come to another harmonious end. "Nothing is conflated. I haven't linked them. There are distinct points, all of which put us at a disadvantage. I never at any point disagreed that the tariff would be postponed, so there is nothing to discuss there. What you really seem to not want to understand is that there would be no negotiation or cost in time and effort and investment certainty without Brexit. There would be nothing to negotiate. The other thing that you seem to be unwilling to accept is economics. A big market with 35 factories means big factories for suppliers can be justified. The bigger the scale of production the lower the cost. If we only "need" 5 factories then we will either have a smaller scale supply chain or have to import. This means higher costs, making cars more expensive or reducing margins. Without Brexit we would be part of the EU supply chain so could benefit from larger scale. There is also a phenomenal amount of money available in the EU to fund and subsidise these factories. Something we do not have access to alone. That alone makes us less attractive for any battery manufacturer to invest in compared to the EU or the USA. Do you actually disagree with any of this? | |||
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"Could someone ELI5 and correct my limited understanding. It appears to me there two issues flagged. First, is that if 65pc of the car has to be made in the UK and the EU and currently batteries aren't, then tarrifs will start to bite. And that's because ev us taking off and both have EU and UK are behind with batteries. So all companies are fucked here. (I assume that an EU car company can sell within eu without having to worry about origins? So this is just about EU/UK trade) Second sort is cost. It's more expensive to import batteries from the EU than if it was being built in the UK. So UK companies would be at a disadvantage even if all things were equal (eg no brexit) Close ? The trade deal between UK and EU, all cars exported from the UK to EU or vice versa must source 40% of their parts by value from within countries within the trade deal, UK and EU. However, 1st Jan rises to 45%, and in 2027 it will rise to 55%. In my opinion this tariff will be paused as it serves no purpose right now. The long and short of this is to remove the reliance on China and bring a wider set of manufacturing opportunities and benefits closer to home. thx. And this increasing pc then causes an issues with wv because the batteries aren't EU/UK built, right ? Hence wanting to kick the pc can down the road. Does it affect intra EU sales ? Eg if a french car is 40pc EU, then there are tarrifs into the UK... But what about Germany? I forgot to add an important part! If the cars parts value does not meet the % of origin it will face a 10% tariff when they sell the product. You can find everything you need to know about this if you google "Trade and Cooperation Agreement" look for the .gov site and you will see the rules surrounding origins, tariffs ect under the UK - UE trading relationship. I believe car manufacturing will be dropped from the agreement until the infrastructures are in place to fulfil the agreement. yes, that's what I was assuming on the above. I still don't know for sure if a France to German sale of a car would incur a tarriff, if they fell below the riels of origin percentage. Understand that the France to UK would.
The EU is the whole blocthat's what I thought. I think I get why easy is saying this is brexit related. My first point (rules of origin) isn't an issue if we hadn't have left. "Exactly this. | |||
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"The EU is the whole blocthat's what I thought. I think I get why easy is saying this is brexit related. My first point (rules of origin) isn't an issue if we hadn't have left. " I understand fully his point, which is hindsight and look at what brexit has done. In my opinion we need to move forward with the hand we have been dealt, nobody is surprised that things are different now we have exited the EU, but every single thing that crops up is "that's brexits fault" and adds nothing. Regardless of popular belief on how rubbish everything is, take a look at the trading relationship document I posted about earlier and you will see a lot more to be optimistic about if we manage the trade with the EU in positive manner, after all trade should be of benefit to all involved. | |||
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"Could someone ELI5 and correct my limited understanding. It appears to me there two issues flagged. First, is that if 65pc of the car has to be made in the UK and the EU and currently batteries aren't, then tarrifs will start to bite. And that's because ev us taking off and both have EU and UK are behind with batteries. So all companies are fucked here. (I assume that an EU car company can sell within eu without having to worry about origins? So this is just about EU/UK trade) Second sort is cost. It's more expensive to import batteries from the EU than if it was being built in the UK. So UK companies would be at a disadvantage even if all things were equal (eg no brexit) Close ? The trade deal between UK and EU, all cars exported from the UK to EU or vice versa must source 40% of their parts by value from within countries within the trade deal, UK and EU. However, 1st Jan rises to 45%, and in 2027 it will rise to 55%. In my opinion this tariff will be paused as it serves no purpose right now. The long and short of this is to remove the reliance on China and bring a wider set of manufacturing opportunities and benefits closer to home. thx. And this increasing pc then causes an issues with wv because the batteries aren't EU/UK built, right ? Hence wanting to kick the pc can down the road. Does it affect intra EU sales ? Eg if a french car is 40pc EU, then there are tarrifs into the UK... But what about Germany? I forgot to add an important part! If the cars parts value does not meet the % of origin it will face a 10% tariff when they sell the product. You can find everything you need to know about this if you google "Trade and Cooperation Agreement" look for the .gov site and you will see the rules surrounding origins, tariffs ect under the UK - UE trading relationship. I believe car manufacturing will be dropped from the agreement until the infrastructures are in place to fulfil the agreement. yes, that's what I was assuming on the above. I still don't know for sure if a France to German sale of a car would incur a tarriff, if they fell below the riels of origin percentage. Understand that the France to UK would. "I doubt between 2 member countries would be a tariff as it's basically classed as one country for trade purposes. I guess in theory a company in France who makes cars could have 100% of the parts made in China and shipped to France for assembly and sold to Germany. However I would not be sure that's good as those parts from China will be subjected to tariffs to get them into France so the tariff is still paid. Also it does not help the French component suppliers if it's all made in China. | |||
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"The EU is the whole blocthat's what I thought. I think I get why easy is saying this is brexit related. My first point (rules of origin) isn't an issue if we hadn't have left. I understand fully his point, which is hindsight and look at what brexit has done. In my opinion we need to move forward with the hand we have been dealt, nobody is surprised that things are different now we have exited the EU, but every single thing that crops up is "that's brexits fault" and adds nothing. Regardless of popular belief on how rubbish everything is, take a look at the trading relationship document I posted about earlier and you will see a lot more to be optimistic about if we manage the trade with the EU in positive manner, after all trade should be of benefit to all involved. " It's not hindsight. It's what Brexit is doing now. Otherwise we wouldn't be discussing it. There is a tariff problem now. We are not building battery factories now. Our automotive industry is under threat now. The fact that problems are identified as being due to Brexit are what are driving the change in attitude. Pretending otherwise does not drive change. It drives acceptance. It's sadly only the damage being caused that is finally shifting a rational relationship with the EU. I'm not optimistic about that because it will be fought every step of the way and the country will be poorer as a consequence. It is poorer as a consequence. If there was an actual opportunity coming out of this, I would be optimistic. All that can be done is to minimise the damage. That's better than compounding it though. | |||
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"The problem to everything is Brexit. End of "That sentence doesn't make grammatical sense. However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit. This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal. The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things. Easy enough to grasp, I'm sure. | |||
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"The problem to everything is Brexit. End of
That sentence doesn't make grammatical sense.
However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things.
Easy enough to grasp, I'm sure."Of course it's easy enough, that doesn't take away the fact that the problem to everything is Brexit notice I didn't bother to correct). Now off you trot to concentrate on grammatical errors | |||
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"The problem to everything is Brexit. End of
That sentence doesn't make grammatical sense.
However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things.
Easy enough to grasp, I'm sure.
Of course it's easy enough, that doesn't take away the fact that the problem to everything is Brexit notice I didn't bother to correct). Now off you trot to concentrate on grammatical errors "What you wrote was nigh on unintelligible, but double down if you like. I have just written out, in words, that is not what I think. You read them, you understood them, but you cannot accept them, so you just repeat yourself as if that overrides it. It's like you're rebooting. Perhaps if you write in capitals it will? | |||
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"The problem to everything is Brexit. End of
That sentence doesn't make grammatical sense.
However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things.
Easy enough to grasp, I'm sure.
Of course it's easy enough, that doesn't take away the fact that the problem to everything is Brexit notice I didn't bother to correct). Now off you trot to concentrate on grammatical errors
What you wrote was nigh on unintelligible, but double down if you like.
I have just written out, in words, that is not what I think. You read them, you understood them, but you cannot accept them, so you just repeat yourself as if that overrides it.
It's like you're rebooting.
Perhaps if you write in capitals it will?"Nigh on unintelligible? Are you sure your grasp of English is as good as you think it is? I almost guarantee you understood what what meant by my sentence. If you didn't I bet your the only one who didn't  | |||
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"The problem to everything is Brexit. End of
That sentence doesn't make grammatical sense.
However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things.
Easy enough to grasp, I'm sure.
Of course it's easy enough, that doesn't take away the fact that the problem to everything is Brexit notice I didn't bother to correct). Now off you trot to concentrate on grammatical errors
What you wrote was nigh on unintelligible, but double down if you like.
I have just written out, in words, that is not what I think. You read them, you understood them, but you cannot accept them, so you just repeat yourself as if that overrides it.
It's like you're rebooting.
Perhaps if you write in capitals it will?
Nigh on unintelligible? Are you sure your grasp of English is as good as you think it is?
I almost guarantee you understood what what meant by my sentence. If you didn't I bet your the only one who didn't ""The problem with everything is Brexit" makes sense. "The reason for all problems is Brexit" makes sense. It's untrue, but it makes sense. "The problem to everything is Brexit" does not. I understood it, but had to work it out. You are now the one wanting to talk about grammar. The problem is having to renegotiate a trade deal because it's tryna threaten or automotive industry. The reason for having to renegotiate the Brexit trade deal is Brexit. | |||
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"The problem is having to renegotiate a trade deal because it's tryna threaten or automotive industry." And he complains that other people are "nigh on unintelligible". | |||
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"The problem to everything is Brexit. End of
That sentence doesn't make grammatical sense.
However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things.
Easy enough to grasp, I'm sure.
Of course it's easy enough, that doesn't take away the fact that the problem to everything is Brexit notice I didn't bother to correct). Now off you trot to concentrate on grammatical errors
What you wrote was nigh on unintelligible, but double down if you like.
I have just written out, in words, that is not what I think. You read them, you understood them, but you cannot accept them, so you just repeat yourself as if that overrides it.
It's like you're rebooting.
Perhaps if you write in capitals it will?
Nigh on unintelligible? Are you sure your grasp of English is as good as you think it is?
I almost guarantee you understood what what meant by my sentence. If you didn't I bet your the only one who didn't
"The problem with everything is Brexit" makes sense.
"The reason for all problems is Brexit" makes sense.
It's untrue, but it makes sense.
"The problem to everything is Brexit" does not.
I understood it, but had to work it out.
You are now the one wanting to talk about grammar.
The problem is having to renegotiate a trade deal because it's threaten or automotive industry.
The reason for having to renegotiate the Brexit trade deal is Brexit." | |||
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"The problems with Brexit can be laid at the feet of one man…. Britain’s worst PM - David Cameron. Who was running scared of the neo-fascists of Nigel Farage and his lunatics in UKIP and the ERG in the Tory party. He should have stood firm and not given way. Except he didn’t and capitulated to having a vote and buggered off when it did go his way to leave everyone else to pick up the mess of his own making. That’s why we have these pleas from the car industry for a renegotiation, a non functioning assembly in Northern Ireland, lack of migrant workers that fuel the farming, hospitality and other sectors and other economic issues. But hey, leavers you won the vote so I guess that all that matters. A bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. " It's got nothing to do with 'winning a vote'. The issue people take is exactly as you've just pointed out. "The reason for all problems is Brexit" (correct grammar just for you Easy). The vote was 7 years ago, remainers just cannot accept that Brexit isn't actually causing every problem we see. Just to pick an easy one for you, the NFU have been complaining of a lack of labour for at least a decade, yet you say its a Brexit issue. Brexit may have made it worse but until remainers accept that there are issues without Brexit we will keep going round in circles. Or alternatively, you could just try the old 'we won, get over it', something which remainers use in their arguments quite often  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The problems with Brexit can be laid at the feet of one man…. Britain’s worst PM - David Cameron. Who was running scared of the neo-fascists of Nigel Farage and his lunatics in UKIP and the ERG in the Tory party. He should have stood firm and not given way. Except he didn’t and capitulated to having a vote and buggered off when it did go his way to leave everyone else to pick up the mess of his own making. That’s why we have these pleas from the car industry for a renegotiation, a non functioning assembly in Northern Ireland, lack of migrant workers that fuel the farming, hospitality and other sectors and other economic issues. But hey, leavers you won the vote so I guess that all that matters. A bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's got nothing to do with 'winning a vote'. The issue people take is exactly as you've just pointed out. "The reason for all problems is Brexit" (correct grammar just for you Easy). The vote was 7 years ago, remainers just cannot accept that Brexit isn't actually causing every problem we see. Just to pick an easy one for you, the NFU have been complaining of a lack of labour for at least a decade, yet you say its a Brexit issue. Brexit may have made it worse but until remainers accept that there are issues without Brexit we will keep going round in circles. Or alternatively, you could just try the old 'we won, get over it', something which remainers use in their arguments quite often "some problems have nothing to do with brexit Some problems have been compounded by brexit, but would have existed anyway. (Possibly farm labour shortages goes here) And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box. I guess we should also have some problems have been improved by brexit. The closest I get to here is vaccine procurement (which yes, we could have done independently in the EU,but would have been a harder decision to have made even of we thought it was the right thing. I also add that just because it worked in our favour, it may not have been the best decision... We lucked out that OU won the race.) | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box." Except that is not actually a problem. Both sides will benefit from changing the rules on cars. Everyone in this thread agrees that it will certainly happen. Other than having to book a room for the meeting, what problem do you see? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box. Except that is not actually a problem. Both sides will benefit from changing the rules on cars. Everyone in this thread agrees that it will certainly happen. Other than having to book a room for the meeting, what problem do you see?" if we didn't have brexit, then we'd have no rules of origins to renegotiate. It may be an easy problem to solve. But it's a problem created from brexit. From what I can tell, that's not for debate, based on what others have said. (I suspect there is some negotiation to be had as I doubt it impacts both sides equally. Otherwise, whu have the rules of origin in the first place ?) | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box. Except that is not actually a problem. Both sides will benefit from changing the rules on cars. Everyone in this thread agrees that it will certainly happen. Other than having to book a room for the meeting, what problem do you see?" Exactly, no problem nothing to worry about | |||
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"I suspect there is some negotiation to be had as I doubt it impacts both sides equally. Otherwise, whu have the rules of origin in the first place ?" In this case, the UK has the upper hand. We export about 300,000 vehicles to the EU every year. The EU sends about 1m vehicles here. If tariffs were to be added, the UK would be raking in more money than it pays out. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I suspect there is some negotiation to be had as I doubt it impacts both sides equally. Otherwise, whu have the rules of origin in the first place ? In this case, the UK has the upper hand. We export about 300,000 vehicles to the EU every year. The EU sends about 1m vehicles here. If tariffs were to be added, the UK would be raking in more money than it pays out." that assumes isy absolute, rather than relative numbers that matter. At an extreme imagine that our industry is entity exports, and the EU's industry is 100m vehicles. There would be an argument that the EU manufacturers could absorb the hit. And the UK consumer would notice the shortfall in the market more. There's probably arguments on both side tbh. Which is why this more road to run imo. There's some interesting game theory to play out. | |||
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"There's probably arguments on both side tbh. Which is why this more road to run imo. There's some interesting game theory to play out. " You make a good point. It'll be interesting to see how it all plays out. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I suspect there is some negotiation to be had as I doubt it impacts both sides equally. Otherwise, whu have the rules of origin in the first place ? In this case, the UK has the upper hand. We export about 300,000 vehicles to the EU every year. The EU sends about 1m vehicles here. If tariffs were to be added, the UK would be raking in more money than it pays out." Those figures help to explain why the EU motor trade are so keen to see this resolved | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The problem is having to renegotiate a trade deal because it's tryna threaten or automotive industry. And he complains that other people are "nigh on unintelligible"." That is a typo, not a deliberate choice of words which I have insisted is correct. "The problem is having to renegotiate a trade deal because it's going to threaten our automotive industry." Autocorrect has not been as good since the IP rulings between various phone and software companies. I will try, and probably fail, to take more care in future. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box. Except that is not actually a problem. Both sides will benefit from changing the rules on cars. Everyone in this thread agrees that it will certainly happen. Other than having to book a room for the meeting, what problem do you see?" "Booking a room" is not the cost of this. We are spending time,money and effort in renegotiating. The same effort is needed by us (a smaller entity) than the EU so it costs us more. It is causing investment uncertainty in the UK industry not that of the EU. That is the case regardless of the final outcome. Is that something that you can acknowledge? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I suspect there is some negotiation to be had as I doubt it impacts both sides equally. Otherwise, whu have the rules of origin in the first place ? In this case, the UK has the upper hand. We export about 300,000 vehicles to the EU every year. The EU sends about 1m vehicles here. If tariffs were to be added, the UK would be raking in more money than it pays out." That is the same fatuous "they need us more than we need them" argument that was made before the hard Brexit trade deal that we ended up with. They are now imposing import rules. We are choosing not to because we have no choice. The EU is a bigger market for EU vehicles than the UK is. They have a lot of choice without anything built here. Tata (JLR), Stellantis and Mini (BMW) have EU plants to shift production to if they wish. The EU is a bigger market for UK vehicles than the UK is. We have little choice of domestic production. No EU companies will set up a plant here to sell only here. We are not going to impose taxes in the EU on this matter anymore than the EU will on us. However, a delay suits the EU just fine. It creates battery and automotive investment uncertainty in the UK as an isolated market but not in the EU. That makes a production shift away from the UK more likely. "Raking in taxes" on fewer sales to consumers who will have to pay more? Sounds like a big "win" and a great bargaining chip to play. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
""Booking a room" is not the cost of this. We are spending time,money and effort in renegotiating. The same effort is needed by us (a smaller entity) than the EU so it costs us more. It is causing investment uncertainty in the UK industry not that of the EU. That is the case regardless of the final outcome. Is that something that you can acknowledge?" I acknowledge that you think that way, but i see it differently. Everyone agrees that we need to change the rules, so there really won't be much negotiating going on. We and they will probably try to get some other stuff done at the same time, but that's us taking an opportunity, not a cost that is needed to fix this issue. I don't believe that it is causing uncertainty for investors. As we all keep saying, everyone agrees that it will get fixed, so why would investors worry about it? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"That is the same fatuous "they need us more than we need them" argument that was made before the hard Brexit trade deal that we ended up with." I was careful to say "in this case". The only person making generalisations here is you. "They are now imposing import rules. We are choosing not to because we have no choice." Can you give an example of an import rule that has been imposed on us? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
""Booking a room" is not the cost of this. We are spending time,money and effort in renegotiating. The same effort is needed by us (a smaller entity) than the EU so it costs us more. It is causing investment uncertainty in the UK industry not that of the EU. That is the case regardless of the final outcome. Is that something that you can acknowledge? I acknowledge that you think that way, but i see it differently. Everyone agrees that we need to change the rules, so there really won't be much negotiating going on. We and they will probably try to get some other stuff done at the same time, but that's us taking an opportunity, not a cost that is needed to fix this issue. I don't believe that it is causing uncertainty for investors. As we all keep saying, everyone agrees that it will get fixed, so why would investors worry about it?" It is exactly what is happening. Why do you think that we don't already have multiple battery factories in progress if we need them so much and are so keen to have them? The EU do. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"That is the same fatuous "they need us more than we need them" argument that was made before the hard Brexit trade deal that we ended up with. I was careful to say "in this case". The only person making generalisations here is you. They are now imposing import rules. We are choosing not to because we have no choice. Can you give an example of an import rule that has been imposed on us?" It doesn't matter if you are "being careful". It is the same argument that was made then. You haven't provided an argument against any of the reasons I have given. You have instead choosen to focus on one peripheral item and ignore the rest. From the House of Commons Library 12 May 2023. "health certification and sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) checks on agri-food products, physical SPS-checks on EU imports at designated Border Control Posts, and safety and security declarations" How come you never look this stuff up yourself? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The problems with Brexit can be laid at the feet of one man…. Britain’s worst PM - David Cameron. Who was running scared of the neo-fascists of Nigel Farage and his lunatics in UKIP and the ERG in the Tory party. He should have stood firm and not given way. Except he didn’t and capitulated to having a vote and buggered off when it did go his way to leave everyone else to pick up the mess of his own making. That’s why we have these pleas from the car industry for a renegotiation, a non functioning assembly in Northern Ireland, lack of migrant workers that fuel the farming, hospitality and other sectors and other economic issues. But hey, leavers you won the vote so I guess that all that matters. A bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's got nothing to do with 'winning a vote'. The issue people take is exactly as you've just pointed out. "The reason for all problems is Brexit" (correct grammar just for you Easy). The vote was 7 years ago, remainers just cannot accept that Brexit isn't actually causing every problem we see. Just to pick an easy one for you, the NFU have been complaining of a lack of labour for at least a decade, yet you say its a Brexit issue. Brexit may have made it worse but until remainers accept that there are issues without Brexit we will keep going round in circles. Or alternatively, you could just try the old 'we won, get over it', something which remainers use in their arguments quite often some problems have nothing to do with brexit
Some problems have been compounded by brexit, but would have existed anyway. (Possibly farm labour shortages goes here)
And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box.
I guess we should also have some problems have been improved by brexit. The closest I get to here is vaccine procurement (which yes, we could have done independently in the EU,but would have been a harder decision to have made even of we thought it was the right thing. I also add that just because it worked in our favour, it may not have been the best decision... We lucked out that OU won the race.)
"Incredible attempt at trying to change the subject. We must only talk about Vauxhall and not the NFU and farmers
I have literally written these words:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Explain how that implies that everything is the fault of Brexit? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The problems with Brexit can be laid at the feet of one man…. Britain’s worst PM - David Cameron. Who was running scared of the neo-fascists of Nigel Farage and his lunatics in UKIP and the ERG in the Tory party. He should have stood firm and not given way. Except he didn’t and capitulated to having a vote and buggered off when it did go his way to leave everyone else to pick up the mess of his own making. That’s why we have these pleas from the car industry for a renegotiation, a non functioning assembly in Northern Ireland, lack of migrant workers that fuel the farming, hospitality and other sectors and other economic issues. But hey, leavers you won the vote so I guess that all that matters. A bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's got nothing to do with 'winning a vote'. The issue people take is exactly as you've just pointed out. "The reason for all problems is Brexit" (correct grammar just for you Easy). The vote was 7 years ago, remainers just cannot accept that Brexit isn't actually causing every problem we see. Just to pick an easy one for you, the NFU have been complaining of a lack of labour for at least a decade, yet you say its a Brexit issue. Brexit may have made it worse but until remainers accept that there are issues without Brexit we will keep going round in circles. Or alternatively, you could just try the old 'we won, get over it', something which remainers use in their arguments quite often some problems have nothing to do with brexit
Some problems have been compounded by brexit, but would have existed anyway. (Possibly farm labour shortages goes here)
And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box.
I guess we should also have some problems have been improved by brexit. The closest I get to here is vaccine procurement (which yes, we could have done independently in the EU,but would have been a harder decision to have made even of we thought it was the right thing. I also add that just because it worked in our favour, it may not have been the best decision... We lucked out that OU won the race.)
Incredible attempt at trying to change the subject.
We must only talk about Vauxhall and not the NFU and farmers
I have literally written these words:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Explain how that implies that everything is the fault of Brexit?"not sure why you are quoting me when I was supporting your position this problem is directly a consequence of brexit. while also seeking to head off the straw man that every problem is because of brexit. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The problems with Brexit can be laid at the feet of one man…. Britain’s worst PM - David Cameron. Who was running scared of the neo-fascists of Nigel Farage and his lunatics in UKIP and the ERG in the Tory party. He should have stood firm and not given way. Except he didn’t and capitulated to having a vote and buggered off when it did go his way to leave everyone else to pick up the mess of his own making. That’s why we have these pleas from the car industry for a renegotiation, a non functioning assembly in Northern Ireland, lack of migrant workers that fuel the farming, hospitality and other sectors and other economic issues. But hey, leavers you won the vote so I guess that all that matters. A bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's got nothing to do with 'winning a vote'. The issue people take is exactly as you've just pointed out. "The reason for all problems is Brexit" (correct grammar just for you Easy). The vote was 7 years ago, remainers just cannot accept that Brexit isn't actually causing every problem we see. Just to pick an easy one for you, the NFU have been complaining of a lack of labour for at least a decade, yet you say its a Brexit issue. Brexit may have made it worse but until remainers accept that there are issues without Brexit we will keep going round in circles. Or alternatively, you could just try the old 'we won, get over it', something which remainers use in their arguments quite often some problems have nothing to do with brexit
Some problems have been compounded by brexit, but would have existed anyway. (Possibly farm labour shortages goes here)
And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box.
I guess we should also have some problems have been improved by brexit. The closest I get to here is vaccine procurement (which yes, we could have done independently in the EU,but would have been a harder decision to have made even of we thought it was the right thing. I also add that just because it worked in our favour, it may not have been the best decision... We lucked out that OU won the race.)
Incredible attempt at trying to change the subject.
We must only talk about Vauxhall and not the NFU and farmers
I have literally written these words:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Explain how that implies that everything is the fault of Brexit?"The poster I was responding to Brough up farming along with some other bits, I chose a response to one of his 'Brexit Problems'. If you have an issue with it, you should take it up with him | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The problems with Brexit can be laid at the feet of one man…. Britain’s worst PM - David Cameron. Who was running scared of the neo-fascists of Nigel Farage and his lunatics in UKIP and the ERG in the Tory party. He should have stood firm and not given way. Except he didn’t and capitulated to having a vote and buggered off when it did go his way to leave everyone else to pick up the mess of his own making. That’s why we have these pleas from the car industry for a renegotiation, a non functioning assembly in Northern Ireland, lack of migrant workers that fuel the farming, hospitality and other sectors and other economic issues. But hey, leavers you won the vote so I guess that all that matters. A bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's got nothing to do with 'winning a vote'. The issue people take is exactly as you've just pointed out. "The reason for all problems is Brexit" (correct grammar just for you Easy). The vote was 7 years ago, remainers just cannot accept that Brexit isn't actually causing every problem we see. Just to pick an easy one for you, the NFU have been complaining of a lack of labour for at least a decade, yet you say its a Brexit issue. Brexit may have made it worse but until remainers accept that there are issues without Brexit we will keep going round in circles. Or alternatively, you could just try the old 'we won, get over it', something which remainers use in their arguments quite often some problems have nothing to do with brexit
Some problems have been compounded by brexit, but would have existed anyway. (Possibly farm labour shortages goes here)
And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box.
I guess we should also have some problems have been improved by brexit. The closest I get to here is vaccine procurement (which yes, we could have done independently in the EU,but would have been a harder decision to have made even of we thought it was the right thing. I also add that just because it worked in our favour, it may not have been the best decision... We lucked out that OU won the race.)
Incredible attempt at trying to change the subject.
We must only talk about Vauxhall and not the NFU and farmers
I have literally written these words:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Explain how that implies that everything is the fault of Brexit?not sure why you are quoting me when I was supporting your position this problem is directly a consequence of brexit. while also seeking to head off the straw man that every problem is because of brexit. "Sorry finger slip on the reply. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The problems with Brexit can be laid at the feet of one man…. Britain’s worst PM - David Cameron. Who was running scared of the neo-fascists of Nigel Farage and his lunatics in UKIP and the ERG in the Tory party. He should have stood firm and not given way. Except he didn’t and capitulated to having a vote and buggered off when it did go his way to leave everyone else to pick up the mess of his own making. That’s why we have these pleas from the car industry for a renegotiation, a non functioning assembly in Northern Ireland, lack of migrant workers that fuel the farming, hospitality and other sectors and other economic issues. But hey, leavers you won the vote so I guess that all that matters. A bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's got nothing to do with 'winning a vote'. The issue people take is exactly as you've just pointed out. "The reason for all problems is Brexit" (correct grammar just for you Easy). The vote was 7 years ago, remainers just cannot accept that Brexit isn't actually causing every problem we see. Just to pick an easy one for you, the NFU have been complaining of a lack of labour for at least a decade, yet you say its a Brexit issue. Brexit may have made it worse but until remainers accept that there are issues without Brexit we will keep going round in circles. Or alternatively, you could just try the old 'we won, get over it', something which remainers use in their arguments quite often some problems have nothing to do with brexit
Some problems have been compounded by brexit, but would have existed anyway. (Possibly farm labour shortages goes here)
And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box.
I guess we should also have some problems have been improved by brexit. The closest I get to here is vaccine procurement (which yes, we could have done independently in the EU,but would have been a harder decision to have made even of we thought it was the right thing. I also add that just because it worked in our favour, it may not have been the best decision... We lucked out that OU won the race.)
Incredible attempt at trying to change the subject.
We must only talk about Vauxhall and not the NFU and farmers
I have literally written these words:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Explain how that implies that everything is the fault of Brexit?
The poster I was responding to Brough up farming along with some other bits, I chose a response to one of his 'Brexit Problems'.
If you have an issue with it, you should take it up with him "Surely you shouldn't be responding to anything except those specifically defined by the OP? You have demanded that of me on many occasions and get very upset if I choose to ignore you. You also chose to directly reference me but still seem unable to explain how claiming that everything being blamed on Brexit compares to this: "However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit. This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal. The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things." | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The problems with Brexit can be laid at the feet of one man…. Britain’s worst PM - David Cameron. Who was running scared of the neo-fascists of Nigel Farage and his lunatics in UKIP and the ERG in the Tory party. He should have stood firm and not given way. Except he didn’t and capitulated to having a vote and buggered off when it did go his way to leave everyone else to pick up the mess of his own making. That’s why we have these pleas from the car industry for a renegotiation, a non functioning assembly in Northern Ireland, lack of migrant workers that fuel the farming, hospitality and other sectors and other economic issues. But hey, leavers you won the vote so I guess that all that matters. A bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's got nothing to do with 'winning a vote'. The issue people take is exactly as you've just pointed out. "The reason for all problems is Brexit" (correct grammar just for you Easy). The vote was 7 years ago, remainers just cannot accept that Brexit isn't actually causing every problem we see. Just to pick an easy one for you, the NFU have been complaining of a lack of labour for at least a decade, yet you say its a Brexit issue. Brexit may have made it worse but until remainers accept that there are issues without Brexit we will keep going round in circles. Or alternatively, you could just try the old 'we won, get over it', something which remainers use in their arguments quite often some problems have nothing to do with brexit
Some problems have been compounded by brexit, but would have existed anyway. (Possibly farm labour shortages goes here)
And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box.
I guess we should also have some problems have been improved by brexit. The closest I get to here is vaccine procurement (which yes, we could have done independently in the EU,but would have been a harder decision to have made even of we thought it was the right thing. I also add that just because it worked in our favour, it may not have been the best decision... We lucked out that OU won the race.)
Incredible attempt at trying to change the subject.
We must only talk about Vauxhall and not the NFU and farmers
I have literally written these words:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Explain how that implies that everything is the fault of Brexit?
The poster I was responding to Brough up farming along with some other bits, I chose a response to one of his 'Brexit Problems'.
If you have an issue with it, you should take it up with him
Surely you shouldn't be responding to anything except those specifically defined by the OP? You have demanded that of me on many occasions and get very upset if I choose to ignore you.
You also chose to directly reference me but still seem unable to explain how claiming that everything being blamed on Brexit compares to this:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things.""Is there anything you'd like to actually let go of? Talk about holding a grudge. Your clearly don't understand sarcasm. Enjoy your evening mate. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The problems with Brexit can be laid at the feet of one man…. Britain’s worst PM - David Cameron. Who was running scared of the neo-fascists of Nigel Farage and his lunatics in UKIP and the ERG in the Tory party. He should have stood firm and not given way. Except he didn’t and capitulated to having a vote and buggered off when it did go his way to leave everyone else to pick up the mess of his own making. That’s why we have these pleas from the car industry for a renegotiation, a non functioning assembly in Northern Ireland, lack of migrant workers that fuel the farming, hospitality and other sectors and other economic issues. But hey, leavers you won the vote so I guess that all that matters. A bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's got nothing to do with 'winning a vote'. The issue people take is exactly as you've just pointed out. "The reason for all problems is Brexit" (correct grammar just for you Easy). The vote was 7 years ago, remainers just cannot accept that Brexit isn't actually causing every problem we see. Just to pick an easy one for you, the NFU have been complaining of a lack of labour for at least a decade, yet you say its a Brexit issue. Brexit may have made it worse but until remainers accept that there are issues without Brexit we will keep going round in circles. Or alternatively, you could just try the old 'we won, get over it', something which remainers use in their arguments quite often some problems have nothing to do with brexit
Some problems have been compounded by brexit, but would have existed anyway. (Possibly farm labour shortages goes here)
And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box.
I guess we should also have some problems have been improved by brexit. The closest I get to here is vaccine procurement (which yes, we could have done independently in the EU,but would have been a harder decision to have made even of we thought it was the right thing. I also add that just because it worked in our favour, it may not have been the best decision... We lucked out that OU won the race.)
Incredible attempt at trying to change the subject.
We must only talk about Vauxhall and not the NFU and farmers
I have literally written these words:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Explain how that implies that everything is the fault of Brexit?
The poster I was responding to Brough up farming along with some other bits, I chose a response to one of his 'Brexit Problems'.
If you have an issue with it, you should take it up with him
Surely you shouldn't be responding to anything except those specifically defined by the OP? You have demanded that of me on many occasions and get very upset if I choose to ignore you.
You also chose to directly reference me but still seem unable to explain how claiming that everything being blamed on Brexit compares to this:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Is there anything you'd like to actually let go of? Talk about holding a grudge.
Your clearly don't understand sarcasm.
Enjoy your evening mate."You frequently, "sarcastically" demand that other people stick precisely to the OP but not yourself or you "sarcastically" continue to repeat that every problem is blamed on Brexit when you've been told that isn't the case on multiple people? You clearly cannot or will not answer a direct question if it exposes your claims as nonsense, again. I'm having a lovely evening watching you behave exactly how you demand that other people must not. Again. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The problems with Brexit can be laid at the feet of one man…. Britain’s worst PM - David Cameron. Who was running scared of the neo-fascists of Nigel Farage and his lunatics in UKIP and the ERG in the Tory party. He should have stood firm and not given way. Except he didn’t and capitulated to having a vote and buggered off when it did go his way to leave everyone else to pick up the mess of his own making. That’s why we have these pleas from the car industry for a renegotiation, a non functioning assembly in Northern Ireland, lack of migrant workers that fuel the farming, hospitality and other sectors and other economic issues. But hey, leavers you won the vote so I guess that all that matters. A bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's got nothing to do with 'winning a vote'. The issue people take is exactly as you've just pointed out. "The reason for all problems is Brexit" (correct grammar just for you Easy). The vote was 7 years ago, remainers just cannot accept that Brexit isn't actually causing every problem we see. Just to pick an easy one for you, the NFU have been complaining of a lack of labour for at least a decade, yet you say its a Brexit issue. Brexit may have made it worse but until remainers accept that there are issues without Brexit we will keep going round in circles. Or alternatively, you could just try the old 'we won, get over it', something which remainers use in their arguments quite often some problems have nothing to do with brexit
Some problems have been compounded by brexit, but would have existed anyway. (Possibly farm labour shortages goes here)
And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box.
I guess we should also have some problems have been improved by brexit. The closest I get to here is vaccine procurement (which yes, we could have done independently in the EU,but would have been a harder decision to have made even of we thought it was the right thing. I also add that just because it worked in our favour, it may not have been the best decision... We lucked out that OU won the race.)
Incredible attempt at trying to change the subject.
We must only talk about Vauxhall and not the NFU and farmers
I have literally written these words:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Explain how that implies that everything is the fault of Brexit?
The poster I was responding to Brough up farming along with some other bits, I chose a response to one of his 'Brexit Problems'.
If you have an issue with it, you should take it up with him
Surely you shouldn't be responding to anything except those specifically defined by the OP? You have demanded that of me on many occasions and get very upset if I choose to ignore you.
You also chose to directly reference me but still seem unable to explain how claiming that everything being blamed on Brexit compares to this:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Is there anything you'd like to actually let go of? Talk about holding a grudge.
Your clearly don't understand sarcasm.
Enjoy your evening mate.
You frequently, "sarcastically" demand that other people stick precisely to the OP but not yourself or you "sarcastically" continue to repeat that every problem is blamed on Brexit when you've been told that isn't the case on multiple people?
You clearly cannot or will not answer a direct question if it exposes your claims as nonsense, again.
I'm having a lovely evening watching you behave exactly how you demand that other people must not. Again."Chill out a bit mate, it's not good for your health to get so worked up. I will continue to be sarcastic with regards the OP. According to them, everything is the fault of Brexit. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The problems with Brexit can be laid at the feet of one man…. Britain’s worst PM - David Cameron. Who was running scared of the neo-fascists of Nigel Farage and his lunatics in UKIP and the ERG in the Tory party. He should have stood firm and not given way. Except he didn’t and capitulated to having a vote and buggered off when it did go his way to leave everyone else to pick up the mess of his own making. That’s why we have these pleas from the car industry for a renegotiation, a non functioning assembly in Northern Ireland, lack of migrant workers that fuel the farming, hospitality and other sectors and other economic issues. But hey, leavers you won the vote so I guess that all that matters. A bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's got nothing to do with 'winning a vote'. The issue people take is exactly as you've just pointed out. "The reason for all problems is Brexit" (correct grammar just for you Easy). The vote was 7 years ago, remainers just cannot accept that Brexit isn't actually causing every problem we see. Just to pick an easy one for you, the NFU have been complaining of a lack of labour for at least a decade, yet you say its a Brexit issue. Brexit may have made it worse but until remainers accept that there are issues without Brexit we will keep going round in circles. Or alternatively, you could just try the old 'we won, get over it', something which remainers use in their arguments quite often some problems have nothing to do with brexit
Some problems have been compounded by brexit, but would have existed anyway. (Possibly farm labour shortages goes here)
And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box.
I guess we should also have some problems have been improved by brexit. The closest I get to here is vaccine procurement (which yes, we could have done independently in the EU,but would have been a harder decision to have made even of we thought it was the right thing. I also add that just because it worked in our favour, it may not have been the best decision... We lucked out that OU won the race.)
Incredible attempt at trying to change the subject.
We must only talk about Vauxhall and not the NFU and farmers
I have literally written these words:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Explain how that implies that everything is the fault of Brexit?
The poster I was responding to Brough up farming along with some other bits, I chose a response to one of his 'Brexit Problems'.
If you have an issue with it, you should take it up with him
Surely you shouldn't be responding to anything except those specifically defined by the OP? You have demanded that of me on many occasions and get very upset if I choose to ignore you.
You also chose to directly reference me but still seem unable to explain how claiming that everything being blamed on Brexit compares to this:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Is there anything you'd like to actually let go of? Talk about holding a grudge.
Your clearly don't understand sarcasm.
Enjoy your evening mate.
You frequently, "sarcastically" demand that other people stick precisely to the OP but not yourself or you "sarcastically" continue to repeat that every problem is blamed on Brexit when you've been told that isn't the case on multiple people?
You clearly cannot or will not answer a direct question if it exposes your claims as nonsense, again.
I'm having a lovely evening watching you behave exactly how you demand that other people must not. Again."Have you ever stopped to question yourself on why you are about to hit post message? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Can you give an example of an import rule that has been imposed on us?" "From the House of Commons Library 12 May 2023. "health certification and sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) checks on agri-food products, physical SPS-checks on EU imports at designated Border Control Posts, and safety and security declarations"" I assume you mean this: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/new-customs-rules-for-trade-with-the-eu/ That's a primer on the rules that the UK is slowly introducing to cover imports. It's nothing to do with the EU imposing rules on us. "How come you never look this stuff up yourself?" Ha ha. Very amusing. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The problems with Brexit can be laid at the feet of one man…. Britain’s worst PM - David Cameron. Who was running scared of the neo-fascists of Nigel Farage and his lunatics in UKIP and the ERG in the Tory party. He should have stood firm and not given way. Except he didn’t and capitulated to having a vote and buggered off when it did go his way to leave everyone else to pick up the mess of his own making. That’s why we have these pleas from the car industry for a renegotiation, a non functioning assembly in Northern Ireland, lack of migrant workers that fuel the farming, hospitality and other sectors and other economic issues. But hey, leavers you won the vote so I guess that all that matters. A bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's got nothing to do with 'winning a vote'. The issue people take is exactly as you've just pointed out. "The reason for all problems is Brexit" (correct grammar just for you Easy). The vote was 7 years ago, remainers just cannot accept that Brexit isn't actually causing every problem we see. Just to pick an easy one for you, the NFU have been complaining of a lack of labour for at least a decade, yet you say its a Brexit issue. Brexit may have made it worse but until remainers accept that there are issues without Brexit we will keep going round in circles. Or alternatively, you could just try the old 'we won, get over it', something which remainers use in their arguments quite often some problems have nothing to do with brexit
Some problems have been compounded by brexit, but would have existed anyway. (Possibly farm labour shortages goes here)
And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box.
I guess we should also have some problems have been improved by brexit. The closest I get to here is vaccine procurement (which yes, we could have done independently in the EU,but would have been a harder decision to have made even of we thought it was the right thing. I also add that just because it worked in our favour, it may not have been the best decision... We lucked out that OU won the race.)
Incredible attempt at trying to change the subject.
We must only talk about Vauxhall and not the NFU and farmers
I have literally written these words:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Explain how that implies that everything is the fault of Brexit?
The poster I was responding to Brough up farming along with some other bits, I chose a response to one of his 'Brexit Problems'.
If you have an issue with it, you should take it up with him
Surely you shouldn't be responding to anything except those specifically defined by the OP? You have demanded that of me on many occasions and get very upset if I choose to ignore you.
You also chose to directly reference me but still seem unable to explain how claiming that everything being blamed on Brexit compares to this:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Is there anything you'd like to actually let go of? Talk about holding a grudge.
Your clearly don't understand sarcasm.
Enjoy your evening mate.
You frequently, "sarcastically" demand that other people stick precisely to the OP but not yourself or you "sarcastically" continue to repeat that every problem is blamed on Brexit when you've been told that isn't the case on multiple people?
You clearly cannot or will not answer a direct question if it exposes your claims as nonsense, again.
I'm having a lovely evening watching you behave exactly how you demand that other people must not. Again.
Chill out a bit mate, it's not good for your health to get so worked up.
I will continue to be sarcastic with regards the OP. According to them, everything is the fault of Brexit."Nice attempt at patronising, again. You still cannot say why: "However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit. This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal. The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things." Would imply that everything is the fault of Brexit. Your position has changed to just referring to the OP now. Nice pivot. Have a nice evening and relax. You get very overexcited on these threads and seem unable to walk away when you say that you will  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The problems with Brexit can be laid at the feet of one man…. Britain’s worst PM - David Cameron. Who was running scared of the neo-fascists of Nigel Farage and his lunatics in UKIP and the ERG in the Tory party. He should have stood firm and not given way. Except he didn’t and capitulated to having a vote and buggered off when it did go his way to leave everyone else to pick up the mess of his own making. That’s why we have these pleas from the car industry for a renegotiation, a non functioning assembly in Northern Ireland, lack of migrant workers that fuel the farming, hospitality and other sectors and other economic issues. But hey, leavers you won the vote so I guess that all that matters. A bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's got nothing to do with 'winning a vote'. The issue people take is exactly as you've just pointed out. "The reason for all problems is Brexit" (correct grammar just for you Easy). The vote was 7 years ago, remainers just cannot accept that Brexit isn't actually causing every problem we see. Just to pick an easy one for you, the NFU have been complaining of a lack of labour for at least a decade, yet you say its a Brexit issue. Brexit may have made it worse but until remainers accept that there are issues without Brexit we will keep going round in circles. Or alternatively, you could just try the old 'we won, get over it', something which remainers use in their arguments quite often some problems have nothing to do with brexit
Some problems have been compounded by brexit, but would have existed anyway. (Possibly farm labour shortages goes here)
And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box.
I guess we should also have some problems have been improved by brexit. The closest I get to here is vaccine procurement (which yes, we could have done independently in the EU,but would have been a harder decision to have made even of we thought it was the right thing. I also add that just because it worked in our favour, it may not have been the best decision... We lucked out that OU won the race.)
Incredible attempt at trying to change the subject.
We must only talk about Vauxhall and not the NFU and farmers
I have literally written these words:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Explain how that implies that everything is the fault of Brexit?
The poster I was responding to Brough up farming along with some other bits, I chose a response to one of his 'Brexit Problems'.
If you have an issue with it, you should take it up with him
Surely you shouldn't be responding to anything except those specifically defined by the OP? You have demanded that of me on many occasions and get very upset if I choose to ignore you.
You also chose to directly reference me but still seem unable to explain how claiming that everything being blamed on Brexit compares to this:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Is there anything you'd like to actually let go of? Talk about holding a grudge.
Your clearly don't understand sarcasm.
Enjoy your evening mate.
You frequently, "sarcastically" demand that other people stick precisely to the OP but not yourself or you "sarcastically" continue to repeat that every problem is blamed on Brexit when you've been told that isn't the case on multiple people?
You clearly cannot or will not answer a direct question if it exposes your claims as nonsense, again.
I'm having a lovely evening watching you behave exactly how you demand that other people must not. Again.
Chill out a bit mate, it's not good for your health to get so worked up.
I will continue to be sarcastic with regards the OP. According to them, everything is the fault of Brexit.
Nice attempt at patronising, again. You still cannot say why:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Would imply that everything is the fault of Brexit.
Your position has changed to just referring to the OP now. Nice pivot.
Have a nice evening and relax. You get very overexcited on these threads and seem unable to walk away when you say that you will "Seriously mate, your obsession with me is starting to become a little worrying. Let it go. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Can you give an example of an import rule that has been imposed on us? From the House of Commons Library 12 May 2023. "health certification and sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) checks on agri-food products, physical SPS-checks on EU imports at designated Border Control Posts, and safety and security declarations" I assume you mean this: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/new-customs-rules-for-trade-with-the-eu/ That's a primer on the rules that the UK is slowly introducing to cover imports. It's nothing to do with the EU imposing rules on us. How come you never look this stuff up yourself? Ha ha. Very amusing." "Can you give an example of an import rule that has been imposed on us?" Well done looking up what I told you to. "New customs rules for trade with the EU" It is exactly about the EU/UK trade rules and subsequent tariff and non-tariff barriers which have been imposed on us and we are yet to impose on the EU. Also back to what you do. Focus on a detail and ignore what you were unable to answer before. Amusing, but true. You don't look these things up. You ask for others to show you the information for you to argue details over | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The problems with Brexit can be laid at the feet of one man…. Britain’s worst PM - David Cameron. Who was running scared of the neo-fascists of Nigel Farage and his lunatics in UKIP and the ERG in the Tory party. He should have stood firm and not given way. Except he didn’t and capitulated to having a vote and buggered off when it did go his way to leave everyone else to pick up the mess of his own making. That’s why we have these pleas from the car industry for a renegotiation, a non functioning assembly in Northern Ireland, lack of migrant workers that fuel the farming, hospitality and other sectors and other economic issues. But hey, leavers you won the vote so I guess that all that matters. A bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's got nothing to do with 'winning a vote'. The issue people take is exactly as you've just pointed out. "The reason for all problems is Brexit" (correct grammar just for you Easy). The vote was 7 years ago, remainers just cannot accept that Brexit isn't actually causing every problem we see. Just to pick an easy one for you, the NFU have been complaining of a lack of labour for at least a decade, yet you say its a Brexit issue. Brexit may have made it worse but until remainers accept that there are issues without Brexit we will keep going round in circles. Or alternatively, you could just try the old 'we won, get over it', something which remainers use in their arguments quite often some problems have nothing to do with brexit
Some problems have been compounded by brexit, but would have existed anyway. (Possibly farm labour shortages goes here)
And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box.
I guess we should also have some problems have been improved by brexit. The closest I get to here is vaccine procurement (which yes, we could have done independently in the EU,but would have been a harder decision to have made even of we thought it was the right thing. I also add that just because it worked in our favour, it may not have been the best decision... We lucked out that OU won the race.)
Incredible attempt at trying to change the subject.
We must only talk about Vauxhall and not the NFU and farmers
I have literally written these words:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Explain how that implies that everything is the fault of Brexit?
The poster I was responding to Brough up farming along with some other bits, I chose a response to one of his 'Brexit Problems'.
If you have an issue with it, you should take it up with him
Surely you shouldn't be responding to anything except those specifically defined by the OP? You have demanded that of me on many occasions and get very upset if I choose to ignore you.
You also chose to directly reference me but still seem unable to explain how claiming that everything being blamed on Brexit compares to this:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Is there anything you'd like to actually let go of? Talk about holding a grudge.
Your clearly don't understand sarcasm.
Enjoy your evening mate.
You frequently, "sarcastically" demand that other people stick precisely to the OP but not yourself or you "sarcastically" continue to repeat that every problem is blamed on Brexit when you've been told that isn't the case on multiple people?
You clearly cannot or will not answer a direct question if it exposes your claims as nonsense, again.
I'm having a lovely evening watching you behave exactly how you demand that other people must not. Again.
Chill out a bit mate, it's not good for your health to get so worked up.
I will continue to be sarcastic with regards the OP. According to them, everything is the fault of Brexit.
Nice attempt at patronising, again. You still cannot say why:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Would imply that everything is the fault of Brexit.
Your position has changed to just referring to the OP now. Nice pivot.
Have a nice evening and relax. You get very overexcited on these threads and seem unable to walk away when you say that you will
Seriously mate, your obsession with me is starting to become a little worrying. Let it go."Again, do stop protesting behaviour that you display yourself. I'm perfectly able to understand what I'm doing. It's amazing to me that you cannot see it in yourself. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The problems with Brexit can be laid at the feet of one man…. Britain’s worst PM - David Cameron. Who was running scared of the neo-fascists of Nigel Farage and his lunatics in UKIP and the ERG in the Tory party. He should have stood firm and not given way. Except he didn’t and capitulated to having a vote and buggered off when it did go his way to leave everyone else to pick up the mess of his own making. That’s why we have these pleas from the car industry for a renegotiation, a non functioning assembly in Northern Ireland, lack of migrant workers that fuel the farming, hospitality and other sectors and other economic issues. But hey, leavers you won the vote so I guess that all that matters. A bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's got nothing to do with 'winning a vote'. The issue people take is exactly as you've just pointed out. "The reason for all problems is Brexit" (correct grammar just for you Easy). The vote was 7 years ago, remainers just cannot accept that Brexit isn't actually causing every problem we see. Just to pick an easy one for you, the NFU have been complaining of a lack of labour for at least a decade, yet you say its a Brexit issue. Brexit may have made it worse but until remainers accept that there are issues without Brexit we will keep going round in circles. Or alternatively, you could just try the old 'we won, get over it', something which remainers use in their arguments quite often some problems have nothing to do with brexit
Some problems have been compounded by brexit, but would have existed anyway. (Possibly farm labour shortages goes here)
And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box.
I guess we should also have some problems have been improved by brexit. The closest I get to here is vaccine procurement (which yes, we could have done independently in the EU,but would have been a harder decision to have made even of we thought it was the right thing. I also add that just because it worked in our favour, it may not have been the best decision... We lucked out that OU won the race.)
Incredible attempt at trying to change the subject.
We must only talk about Vauxhall and not the NFU and farmers
I have literally written these words:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Explain how that implies that everything is the fault of Brexit?
The poster I was responding to Brough up farming along with some other bits, I chose a response to one of his 'Brexit Problems'.
If you have an issue with it, you should take it up with him
Surely you shouldn't be responding to anything except those specifically defined by the OP? You have demanded that of me on many occasions and get very upset if I choose to ignore you.
You also chose to directly reference me but still seem unable to explain how claiming that everything being blamed on Brexit compares to this:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Is there anything you'd like to actually let go of? Talk about holding a grudge.
Your clearly don't understand sarcasm.
Enjoy your evening mate.
You frequently, "sarcastically" demand that other people stick precisely to the OP but not yourself or you "sarcastically" continue to repeat that every problem is blamed on Brexit when you've been told that isn't the case on multiple people?
You clearly cannot or will not answer a direct question if it exposes your claims as nonsense, again.
I'm having a lovely evening watching you behave exactly how you demand that other people must not. Again.
Chill out a bit mate, it's not good for your health to get so worked up.
I will continue to be sarcastic with regards the OP. According to them, everything is the fault of Brexit.
Nice attempt at patronising, again. You still cannot say why:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Would imply that everything is the fault of Brexit.
Your position has changed to just referring to the OP now. Nice pivot.
Have a nice evening and relax. You get very overexcited on these threads and seem unable to walk away when you say that you will
Seriously mate, your obsession with me is starting to become a little worrying. Let it go."Yes, I've noticed the pattern too. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The problems with Brexit can be laid at the feet of one man…. Britain’s worst PM - David Cameron. Who was running scared of the neo-fascists of Nigel Farage and his lunatics in UKIP and the ERG in the Tory party. He should have stood firm and not given way. Except he didn’t and capitulated to having a vote and buggered off when it did go his way to leave everyone else to pick up the mess of his own making. That’s why we have these pleas from the car industry for a renegotiation, a non functioning assembly in Northern Ireland, lack of migrant workers that fuel the farming, hospitality and other sectors and other economic issues. But hey, leavers you won the vote so I guess that all that matters. A bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's got nothing to do with 'winning a vote'. The issue people take is exactly as you've just pointed out. "The reason for all problems is Brexit" (correct grammar just for you Easy). The vote was 7 years ago, remainers just cannot accept that Brexit isn't actually causing every problem we see. Just to pick an easy one for you, the NFU have been complaining of a lack of labour for at least a decade, yet you say its a Brexit issue. Brexit may have made it worse but until remainers accept that there are issues without Brexit we will keep going round in circles. Or alternatively, you could just try the old 'we won, get over it', something which remainers use in their arguments quite often some problems have nothing to do with brexit
Some problems have been compounded by brexit, but would have existed anyway. (Possibly farm labour shortages goes here)
And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box.
I guess we should also have some problems have been improved by brexit. The closest I get to here is vaccine procurement (which yes, we could have done independently in the EU,but would have been a harder decision to have made even of we thought it was the right thing. I also add that just because it worked in our favour, it may not have been the best decision... We lucked out that OU won the race.)
Incredible attempt at trying to change the subject.
We must only talk about Vauxhall and not the NFU and farmers
I have literally written these words:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Explain how that implies that everything is the fault of Brexit?
The poster I was responding to Brough up farming along with some other bits, I chose a response to one of his 'Brexit Problems'.
If you have an issue with it, you should take it up with him
Surely you shouldn't be responding to anything except those specifically defined by the OP? You have demanded that of me on many occasions and get very upset if I choose to ignore you.
You also chose to directly reference me but still seem unable to explain how claiming that everything being blamed on Brexit compares to this:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Is there anything you'd like to actually let go of? Talk about holding a grudge.
Your clearly don't understand sarcasm.
Enjoy your evening mate.
You frequently, "sarcastically" demand that other people stick precisely to the OP but not yourself or you "sarcastically" continue to repeat that every problem is blamed on Brexit when you've been told that isn't the case on multiple people?
You clearly cannot or will not answer a direct question if it exposes your claims as nonsense, again.
I'm having a lovely evening watching you behave exactly how you demand that other people must not. Again.
Chill out a bit mate, it's not good for your health to get so worked up.
I will continue to be sarcastic with regards the OP. According to them, everything is the fault of Brexit.
Nice attempt at patronising, again. You still cannot say why:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Would imply that everything is the fault of Brexit.
Your position has changed to just referring to the OP now. Nice pivot.
Have a nice evening and relax. You get very overexcited on these threads and seem unable to walk away when you say that you will
Seriously mate, your obsession with me is starting to become a little worrying. Let it go.
Yes, I've noticed the pattern too.
"...and I've noticed you jumping in with digs
Anyway, this is nothing to do with the OP. I'm sure you'll be told to stop posting.
I know that I would be  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The problems with Brexit can be laid at the feet of one man…. Britain’s worst PM - David Cameron. Who was running scared of the neo-fascists of Nigel Farage and his lunatics in UKIP and the ERG in the Tory party. He should have stood firm and not given way. Except he didn’t and capitulated to having a vote and buggered off when it did go his way to leave everyone else to pick up the mess of his own making. That’s why we have these pleas from the car industry for a renegotiation, a non functioning assembly in Northern Ireland, lack of migrant workers that fuel the farming, hospitality and other sectors and other economic issues. But hey, leavers you won the vote so I guess that all that matters. A bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's got nothing to do with 'winning a vote'. The issue people take is exactly as you've just pointed out. "The reason for all problems is Brexit" (correct grammar just for you Easy). The vote was 7 years ago, remainers just cannot accept that Brexit isn't actually causing every problem we see. Just to pick an easy one for you, the NFU have been complaining of a lack of labour for at least a decade, yet you say its a Brexit issue. Brexit may have made it worse but until remainers accept that there are issues without Brexit we will keep going round in circles. Or alternatively, you could just try the old 'we won, get over it', something which remainers use in their arguments quite often some problems have nothing to do with brexit
Some problems have been compounded by brexit, but would have existed anyway. (Possibly farm labour shortages goes here)
And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box.
I guess we should also have some problems have been improved by brexit. The closest I get to here is vaccine procurement (which yes, we could have done independently in the EU,but would have been a harder decision to have made even of we thought it was the right thing. I also add that just because it worked in our favour, it may not have been the best decision... We lucked out that OU won the race.)
Incredible attempt at trying to change the subject.
We must only talk about Vauxhall and not the NFU and farmers
I have literally written these words:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Explain how that implies that everything is the fault of Brexit?
The poster I was responding to Brough up farming along with some other bits, I chose a response to one of his 'Brexit Problems'.
If you have an issue with it, you should take it up with him
Surely you shouldn't be responding to anything except those specifically defined by the OP? You have demanded that of me on many occasions and get very upset if I choose to ignore you.
You also chose to directly reference me but still seem unable to explain how claiming that everything being blamed on Brexit compares to this:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Is there anything you'd like to actually let go of? Talk about holding a grudge.
Your clearly don't understand sarcasm.
Enjoy your evening mate.
You frequently, "sarcastically" demand that other people stick precisely to the OP but not yourself or you "sarcastically" continue to repeat that every problem is blamed on Brexit when you've been told that isn't the case on multiple people?
You clearly cannot or will not answer a direct question if it exposes your claims as nonsense, again.
I'm having a lovely evening watching you behave exactly how you demand that other people must not. Again.
Chill out a bit mate, it's not good for your health to get so worked up.
I will continue to be sarcastic with regards the OP. According to them, everything is the fault of Brexit.
Nice attempt at patronising, again. You still cannot say why:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Would imply that everything is the fault of Brexit.
Your position has changed to just referring to the OP now. Nice pivot.
Have a nice evening and relax. You get very overexcited on these threads and seem unable to walk away when you say that you will
Seriously mate, your obsession with me is starting to become a little worrying. Let it go.
Yes, I've noticed the pattern too.
...and I've noticed you jumping in with digs
Anyway, this is nothing to do with the OP. I'm sure you'll be told to stop posting.
I know that I would be "You're completely obsessed. Can't you debate properly, without condescension? without patronisation?? It's a pattern. Oh, and I shall post whatever I see fit to post on here, regardless of anyone's comments. MY opinion, MY (equal) right. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The problems with Brexit can be laid at the feet of one man…. Britain’s worst PM - David Cameron. Who was running scared of the neo-fascists of Nigel Farage and his lunatics in UKIP and the ERG in the Tory party. He should have stood firm and not given way. Except he didn’t and capitulated to having a vote and buggered off when it did go his way to leave everyone else to pick up the mess of his own making. That’s why we have these pleas from the car industry for a renegotiation, a non functioning assembly in Northern Ireland, lack of migrant workers that fuel the farming, hospitality and other sectors and other economic issues. But hey, leavers you won the vote so I guess that all that matters. A bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's got nothing to do with 'winning a vote'. The issue people take is exactly as you've just pointed out. "The reason for all problems is Brexit" (correct grammar just for you Easy). The vote was 7 years ago, remainers just cannot accept that Brexit isn't actually causing every problem we see. Just to pick an easy one for you, the NFU have been complaining of a lack of labour for at least a decade, yet you say its a Brexit issue. Brexit may have made it worse but until remainers accept that there are issues without Brexit we will keep going round in circles. Or alternatively, you could just try the old 'we won, get over it', something which remainers use in their arguments quite often some problems have nothing to do with brexit
Some problems have been compounded by brexit, but would have existed anyway. (Possibly farm labour shortages goes here)
And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box.
I guess we should also have some problems have been improved by brexit. The closest I get to here is vaccine procurement (which yes, we could have done independently in the EU,but would have been a harder decision to have made even of we thought it was the right thing. I also add that just because it worked in our favour, it may not have been the best decision... We lucked out that OU won the race.)
Incredible attempt at trying to change the subject.
We must only talk about Vauxhall and not the NFU and farmers
I have literally written these words:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Explain how that implies that everything is the fault of Brexit?
The poster I was responding to Brough up farming along with some other bits, I chose a response to one of his 'Brexit Problems'.
If you have an issue with it, you should take it up with him
Surely you shouldn't be responding to anything except those specifically defined by the OP? You have demanded that of me on many occasions and get very upset if I choose to ignore you.
You also chose to directly reference me but still seem unable to explain how claiming that everything being blamed on Brexit compares to this:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Is there anything you'd like to actually let go of? Talk about holding a grudge.
Your clearly don't understand sarcasm.
Enjoy your evening mate.
You frequently, "sarcastically" demand that other people stick precisely to the OP but not yourself or you "sarcastically" continue to repeat that every problem is blamed on Brexit when you've been told that isn't the case on multiple people?
You clearly cannot or will not answer a direct question if it exposes your claims as nonsense, again.
I'm having a lovely evening watching you behave exactly how you demand that other people must not. Again.
Chill out a bit mate, it's not good for your health to get so worked up.
I will continue to be sarcastic with regards the OP. According to them, everything is the fault of Brexit.
Nice attempt at patronising, again. You still cannot say why:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Would imply that everything is the fault of Brexit.
Your position has changed to just referring to the OP now. Nice pivot.
Have a nice evening and relax. You get very overexcited on these threads and seem unable to walk away when you say that you will
Seriously mate, your obsession with me is starting to become a little worrying. Let it go.
Yes, I've noticed the pattern too.
...and I've noticed you jumping in with digs
Anyway, this is nothing to do with the OP. I'm sure you'll be told to stop posting.
I know that I would be
You're completely obsessed.
Can't you debate properly, without condescension? without patronisation??
It's a pattern.
Oh, and I shall post whatever I see fit to post on here, regardless of anyone's comments.
MY opinion, MY (equal) right.
"I'm glad I'm not the only person who can see it. Following me around threads like a dog with a bone. It's really quite troubling. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The problems with Brexit can be laid at the feet of one man…. Britain’s worst PM - David Cameron. Who was running scared of the neo-fascists of Nigel Farage and his lunatics in UKIP and the ERG in the Tory party. He should have stood firm and not given way. Except he didn’t and capitulated to having a vote and buggered off when it did go his way to leave everyone else to pick up the mess of his own making. That’s why we have these pleas from the car industry for a renegotiation, a non functioning assembly in Northern Ireland, lack of migrant workers that fuel the farming, hospitality and other sectors and other economic issues. But hey, leavers you won the vote so I guess that all that matters. A bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's got nothing to do with 'winning a vote'. The issue people take is exactly as you've just pointed out. "The reason for all problems is Brexit" (correct grammar just for you Easy). The vote was 7 years ago, remainers just cannot accept that Brexit isn't actually causing every problem we see. Just to pick an easy one for you, the NFU have been complaining of a lack of labour for at least a decade, yet you say its a Brexit issue. Brexit may have made it worse but until remainers accept that there are issues without Brexit we will keep going round in circles. Or alternatively, you could just try the old 'we won, get over it', something which remainers use in their arguments quite often some problems have nothing to do with brexit
Some problems have been compounded by brexit, but would have existed anyway. (Possibly farm labour shortages goes here)
And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box.
I guess we should also have some problems have been improved by brexit. The closest I get to here is vaccine procurement (which yes, we could have done independently in the EU,but would have been a harder decision to have made even of we thought it was the right thing. I also add that just because it worked in our favour, it may not have been the best decision... We lucked out that OU won the race.)
Incredible attempt at trying to change the subject.
We must only talk about Vauxhall and not the NFU and farmers
I have literally written these words:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Explain how that implies that everything is the fault of Brexit?
The poster I was responding to Brough up farming along with some other bits, I chose a response to one of his 'Brexit Problems'.
If you have an issue with it, you should take it up with him
Surely you shouldn't be responding to anything except those specifically defined by the OP? You have demanded that of me on many occasions and get very upset if I choose to ignore you.
You also chose to directly reference me but still seem unable to explain how claiming that everything being blamed on Brexit compares to this:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Is there anything you'd like to actually let go of? Talk about holding a grudge.
Your clearly don't understand sarcasm.
Enjoy your evening mate.
You frequently, "sarcastically" demand that other people stick precisely to the OP but not yourself or you "sarcastically" continue to repeat that every problem is blamed on Brexit when you've been told that isn't the case on multiple people?
You clearly cannot or will not answer a direct question if it exposes your claims as nonsense, again.
I'm having a lovely evening watching you behave exactly how you demand that other people must not. Again.
Chill out a bit mate, it's not good for your health to get so worked up.
I will continue to be sarcastic with regards the OP. According to them, everything is the fault of Brexit.
Nice attempt at patronising, again. You still cannot say why:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Would imply that everything is the fault of Brexit.
Your position has changed to just referring to the OP now. Nice pivot.
Have a nice evening and relax. You get very overexcited on these threads and seem unable to walk away when you say that you will
Seriously mate, your obsession with me is starting to become a little worrying. Let it go.
Yes, I've noticed the pattern too.
...and I've noticed you jumping in with digs
Anyway, this is nothing to do with the OP. I'm sure you'll be told to stop posting.
I know that I would be
You're completely obsessed.
Can't you debate properly, without condescension? without patronisation??
It's a pattern.
Oh, and I shall post whatever I see fit to post on here, regardless of anyone's comments.
MY opinion, MY (equal) right.
"Why do you believe that I am "obsessed" if you chose to post your opinion about me? It is your right. I didn't say that you couldn't post whatever you wanted, did I? I am asking though... | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The problems with Brexit can be laid at the feet of one man…. Britain’s worst PM - David Cameron. Who was running scared of the neo-fascists of Nigel Farage and his lunatics in UKIP and the ERG in the Tory party. He should have stood firm and not given way. Except he didn’t and capitulated to having a vote and buggered off when it did go his way to leave everyone else to pick up the mess of his own making. That’s why we have these pleas from the car industry for a renegotiation, a non functioning assembly in Northern Ireland, lack of migrant workers that fuel the farming, hospitality and other sectors and other economic issues. But hey, leavers you won the vote so I guess that all that matters. A bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's got nothing to do with 'winning a vote'. The issue people take is exactly as you've just pointed out. "The reason for all problems is Brexit" (correct grammar just for you Easy). The vote was 7 years ago, remainers just cannot accept that Brexit isn't actually causing every problem we see. Just to pick an easy one for you, the NFU have been complaining of a lack of labour for at least a decade, yet you say its a Brexit issue. Brexit may have made it worse but until remainers accept that there are issues without Brexit we will keep going round in circles. Or alternatively, you could just try the old 'we won, get over it', something which remainers use in their arguments quite often some problems have nothing to do with brexit
Some problems have been compounded by brexit, but would have existed anyway. (Possibly farm labour shortages goes here)
And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box.
I guess we should also have some problems have been improved by brexit. The closest I get to here is vaccine procurement (which yes, we could have done independently in the EU,but would have been a harder decision to have made even of we thought it was the right thing. I also add that just because it worked in our favour, it may not have been the best decision... We lucked out that OU won the race.)
Incredible attempt at trying to change the subject.
We must only talk about Vauxhall and not the NFU and farmers
I have literally written these words:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Explain how that implies that everything is the fault of Brexit?
The poster I was responding to Brough up farming along with some other bits, I chose a response to one of his 'Brexit Problems'.
If you have an issue with it, you should take it up with him
Surely you shouldn't be responding to anything except those specifically defined by the OP? You have demanded that of me on many occasions and get very upset if I choose to ignore you.
You also chose to directly reference me but still seem unable to explain how claiming that everything being blamed on Brexit compares to this:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Is there anything you'd like to actually let go of? Talk about holding a grudge.
Your clearly don't understand sarcasm.
Enjoy your evening mate.
You frequently, "sarcastically" demand that other people stick precisely to the OP but not yourself or you "sarcastically" continue to repeat that every problem is blamed on Brexit when you've been told that isn't the case on multiple people?
You clearly cannot or will not answer a direct question if it exposes your claims as nonsense, again.
I'm having a lovely evening watching you behave exactly how you demand that other people must not. Again.
Chill out a bit mate, it's not good for your health to get so worked up.
I will continue to be sarcastic with regards the OP. According to them, everything is the fault of Brexit.
Nice attempt at patronising, again. You still cannot say why:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Would imply that everything is the fault of Brexit.
Your position has changed to just referring to the OP now. Nice pivot.
Have a nice evening and relax. You get very overexcited on these threads and seem unable to walk away when you say that you will
Seriously mate, your obsession with me is starting to become a little worrying. Let it go.
Yes, I've noticed the pattern too.
...and I've noticed you jumping in with digs
Anyway, this is nothing to do with the OP. I'm sure you'll be told to stop posting.
I know that I would be
You're completely obsessed.
Can't you debate properly, without condescension? without patronisation??
It's a pattern.
Oh, and I shall post whatever I see fit to post on here, regardless of anyone's comments.
MY opinion, MY (equal) right.
I'm glad I'm not the only person who can see it. Following me around threads like a dog with a bone.
It's really quite troubling.
"Has the thread "moved" now to make me the topic of discussion? You seem a little obsessed. You should probably go back to talking about the OP. Perhaps you feel compelled to behave exactly as I am apparently doing so as to "teach me a lesson" in some way? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Can you give an example of an import rule that has been imposed on us?" "From the House of Commons Library 12 May 2023. "health certification and sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) checks on agri-food products, physical SPS-checks on EU imports at designated Border Control Posts, and safety and security declarations"" "I assume you mean this: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/new-customs-rules-for-trade-with-the-eu/ That's a primer on the rules that the UK is slowly introducing to cover imports. It's nothing to do with the EU imposing rules on us." "Well done looking up what I told you to. "New customs rules for trade with the EU" It is exactly about the EU/UK trade rules and subsequent tariff and non-tariff barriers which have been imposed on us and we are yet to impose on the EU." I'll make this simple. You said "[the EU] are now imposing import rules", and when I asked for an example, you pointed at the link I gave above. But that link describes how the UK is reacting to the changes made by the Trade and Cooperation Agreement (the EU/UK trade deal). It's something we negotiated and agreed to. It's not something that the EU has imposed on us. "Amusing, but true. You don't look these things up. You ask for others to show you the information for you to argue details over" I'm not sure what world you live in, but in this forum I'm known for posting links to the information, and for encouraging others to do so. Even in this thread I was the one that posted the link, after you just have a title and no explanation. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The problems with Brexit can be laid at the feet of one man…. Britain’s worst PM - David Cameron. Who was running scared of the neo-fascists of Nigel Farage and his lunatics in UKIP and the ERG in the Tory party. He should have stood firm and not given way. Except he didn’t and capitulated to having a vote and buggered off when it did go his way to leave everyone else to pick up the mess of his own making. That’s why we have these pleas from the car industry for a renegotiation, a non functioning assembly in Northern Ireland, lack of migrant workers that fuel the farming, hospitality and other sectors and other economic issues. But hey, leavers you won the vote so I guess that all that matters. A bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's got nothing to do with 'winning a vote'. The issue people take is exactly as you've just pointed out. "The reason for all problems is Brexit" (correct grammar just for you Easy). The vote was 7 years ago, remainers just cannot accept that Brexit isn't actually causing every problem we see. Just to pick an easy one for you, the NFU have been complaining of a lack of labour for at least a decade, yet you say its a Brexit issue. Brexit may have made it worse but until remainers accept that there are issues without Brexit we will keep going round in circles. Or alternatively, you could just try the old 'we won, get over it', something which remainers use in their arguments quite often some problems have nothing to do with brexit
Some problems have been compounded by brexit, but would have existed anyway. (Possibly farm labour shortages goes here)
And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box.
I guess we should also have some problems have been improved by brexit. The closest I get to here is vaccine procurement (which yes, we could have done independently in the EU,but would have been a harder decision to have made even of we thought it was the right thing. I also add that just because it worked in our favour, it may not have been the best decision... We lucked out that OU won the race.)
Incredible attempt at trying to change the subject.
We must only talk about Vauxhall and not the NFU and farmers
I have literally written these words:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Explain how that implies that everything is the fault of Brexit?
The poster I was responding to Brough up farming along with some other bits, I chose a response to one of his 'Brexit Problems'.
If you have an issue with it, you should take it up with him
Surely you shouldn't be responding to anything except those specifically defined by the OP? You have demanded that of me on many occasions and get very upset if I choose to ignore you.
You also chose to directly reference me but still seem unable to explain how claiming that everything being blamed on Brexit compares to this:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Is there anything you'd like to actually let go of? Talk about holding a grudge.
Your clearly don't understand sarcasm.
Enjoy your evening mate.
You frequently, "sarcastically" demand that other people stick precisely to the OP but not yourself or you "sarcastically" continue to repeat that every problem is blamed on Brexit when you've been told that isn't the case on multiple people?
You clearly cannot or will not answer a direct question if it exposes your claims as nonsense, again.
I'm having a lovely evening watching you behave exactly how you demand that other people must not. Again.
Chill out a bit mate, it's not good for your health to get so worked up.
I will continue to be sarcastic with regards the OP. According to them, everything is the fault of Brexit.
Nice attempt at patronising, again. You still cannot say why:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Would imply that everything is the fault of Brexit.
Your position has changed to just referring to the OP now. Nice pivot.
Have a nice evening and relax. You get very overexcited on these threads and seem unable to walk away when you say that you will
Seriously mate, your obsession with me is starting to become a little worrying. Let it go.
Yes, I've noticed the pattern too.
...and I've noticed you jumping in with digs
Anyway, this is nothing to do with the OP. I'm sure you'll be told to stop posting.
I know that I would be
You're completely obsessed.
Can't you debate properly, without condescension? without patronisation??
It's a pattern.
Oh, and I shall post whatever I see fit to post on here, regardless of anyone's comments.
MY opinion, MY (equal) right.
I'm glad I'm not the only person who can see it. Following me around threads like a dog with a bone.
It's really quite troubling.
Has the thread "moved" now to make me the topic of discussion?
You seem a little obsessed. You should probably go back to talking about the OP.
Perhaps you feel compelled to behave exactly as I am apparently doing so as to "teach me a lesson" in some way?"In which way am I behaving? You're chasing me across multiple threads to do nothing but derail and make some kind of point about me personally. You've admitted so yourself. That is obsessive. Any chance you can give it a rest now? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Can you give an example of an import rule that has been imposed on us? From the House of Commons Library 12 May 2023. "health certification and sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) checks on agri-food products, physical SPS-checks on EU imports at designated Border Control Posts, and safety and security declarations" I assume you mean this: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/new-customs-rules-for-trade-with-the-eu/ That's a primer on the rules that the UK is slowly introducing to cover imports. It's nothing to do with the EU imposing rules on us. Well done looking up what I told you to. "New customs rules for trade with the EU" It is exactly about the EU/UK trade rules and subsequent tariff and non-tariff barriers which have been imposed on us and we are yet to impose on the EU. I'll make this simple. You said "[the EU] are now imposing import rules", and when I asked for an example, you pointed at the link I gave above. But that link describes how the UK is reacting to the changes made by the Trade and Cooperation Agreement (the EU/UK trade deal). It's something we negotiated and agreed to. It's not something that the EU has imposed on us. Amusing, but true. You don't look these things up. You ask for others to show you the information for you to argue details over I'm not sure what world you live in, but in this forum I'm known for posting links to the information, and for encouraging others to do so. Even in this thread I was the one that posted the link, after you just have a title and no explanation." As regular as clockwork. You start to to quibble over the definition of a word. Brexit and the subsequent trade agreement requires the imposition of tariff and non+tariff barriers on trade between the UK and the EU. The EU enacted (imposed) those. We still have not enacted (imposed) them. Consequently there are many rules and regulations that have been imposed upon UK companies that have not been imposed upon EU ones. The reason for this is because "we need them more than they need us" even though the EU sells us more goods. We have not imposed many of the barriers to trade that we could have done for many years, but they have. That is the point of this entire segway. Perhaps you can now address the reasons I gave as to why in the case of the automotive industry the amount of cars sold is not the only measure of who needs whom more? If you have a desire to take credit for supplying the information that you asked that I give you, go right ahead, but if you could address the point that brought us here that would be great. Here's what you have still not addressed: "The EU is a bigger market for EU vehicles than the UK is. They have a lot of choice without anything built here. Tata (JLR), Stellantis and Mini (BMW) have EU plants to shift production to if they wish. The EU is a bigger market for UK vehicles than the UK is. We have little choice of domestic production. No EU companies will set up a plant here to sell only here. We are not going to impose taxes in the EU on this matter anymore than the EU will on us. However, a delay suits the EU just fine. It creates battery and automotive investment uncertainty in the UK as an isolated market but not in the EU. That makes a production shift away from the UK more likely. "Raking in taxes" on fewer sales to consumers who will have to pay more? Sounds like a big "win" and a great bargaining chip to play." "Why do you think that we don't already have multiple battery factories in progress if we need them so much and are so keen to have them? The EU do." | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The problems with Brexit can be laid at the feet of one man…. Britain’s worst PM - David Cameron. Who was running scared of the neo-fascists of Nigel Farage and his lunatics in UKIP and the ERG in the Tory party. He should have stood firm and not given way. Except he didn’t and capitulated to having a vote and buggered off when it did go his way to leave everyone else to pick up the mess of his own making. That’s why we have these pleas from the car industry for a renegotiation, a non functioning assembly in Northern Ireland, lack of migrant workers that fuel the farming, hospitality and other sectors and other economic issues. But hey, leavers you won the vote so I guess that all that matters. A bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's got nothing to do with 'winning a vote'. The issue people take is exactly as you've just pointed out. "The reason for all problems is Brexit" (correct grammar just for you Easy). The vote was 7 years ago, remainers just cannot accept that Brexit isn't actually causing every problem we see. Just to pick an easy one for you, the NFU have been complaining of a lack of labour for at least a decade, yet you say its a Brexit issue. Brexit may have made it worse but until remainers accept that there are issues without Brexit we will keep going round in circles. Or alternatively, you could just try the old 'we won, get over it', something which remainers use in their arguments quite often some problems have nothing to do with brexit
Some problems have been compounded by brexit, but would have existed anyway. (Possibly farm labour shortages goes here)
And some problems are directly caused by brexit. Renegoting EU/uk agreements fall squarely into this box.
I guess we should also have some problems have been improved by brexit. The closest I get to here is vaccine procurement (which yes, we could have done independently in the EU,but would have been a harder decision to have made even of we thought it was the right thing. I also add that just because it worked in our favour, it may not have been the best decision... We lucked out that OU won the race.)
Incredible attempt at trying to change the subject.
We must only talk about Vauxhall and not the NFU and farmers
I have literally written these words:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Explain how that implies that everything is the fault of Brexit?
The poster I was responding to Brough up farming along with some other bits, I chose a response to one of his 'Brexit Problems'.
If you have an issue with it, you should take it up with him
Surely you shouldn't be responding to anything except those specifically defined by the OP? You have demanded that of me on many occasions and get very upset if I choose to ignore you.
You also chose to directly reference me but still seem unable to explain how claiming that everything being blamed on Brexit compares to this:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Is there anything you'd like to actually let go of? Talk about holding a grudge.
Your clearly don't understand sarcasm.
Enjoy your evening mate.
You frequently, "sarcastically" demand that other people stick precisely to the OP but not yourself or you "sarcastically" continue to repeat that every problem is blamed on Brexit when you've been told that isn't the case on multiple people?
You clearly cannot or will not answer a direct question if it exposes your claims as nonsense, again.
I'm having a lovely evening watching you behave exactly how you demand that other people must not. Again.
Chill out a bit mate, it's not good for your health to get so worked up.
I will continue to be sarcastic with regards the OP. According to them, everything is the fault of Brexit.
Nice attempt at patronising, again. You still cannot say why:
"However, the problems caused by Brexit are the problems caused by Brexit.
This thread is literally about renegotiating the Brexit trade deal.
The problems caused by other things are the problems caused by other things."
Would imply that everything is the fault of Brexit.
Your position has changed to just referring to the OP now. Nice pivot.
Have a nice evening and relax. You get very overexcited on these threads and seem unable to walk away when you say that you will
Seriously mate, your obsession with me is starting to become a little worrying. Let it go.
Yes, I've noticed the pattern too.
...and I've noticed you jumping in with digs
Anyway, this is nothing to do with the OP. I'm sure you'll be told to stop posting.
I know that I would be
You're completely obsessed.
Can't you debate properly, without condescension? without patronisation??
It's a pattern.
Oh, and I shall post whatever I see fit to post on here, regardless of anyone's comments.
MY opinion, MY (equal) right.
I'm glad I'm not the only person who can see it. Following me around threads like a dog with a bone.
It's really quite troubling.
Has the thread "moved" now to make me the topic of discussion?
You seem a little obsessed. You should probably go back to talking about the OP.
Perhaps you feel compelled to behave exactly as I am apparently doing so as to "teach me a lesson" in some way?
In which way am I behaving? You're chasing me across multiple threads to do nothing but derail and make some kind of point about me personally. You've admitted so yourself. That is obsessive. Any chance you can give it a rest now?"Hello. Back again? Still not learning that you are criticising behaviour that you indulge in yourself? Go ahead, cock your leg the highest on the lamp post and prove your "point", whatever it may be | |||
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"As regular as clockwork. You start to to quibble over the definition of a word. Brexit and the subsequent trade agreement requires the imposition of tariff and non+tariff barriers on trade between the UK and the EU. The EU enacted (imposed) those. We still have not enacted (imposed) them." I realise that English isn't your first language, but you really do need to make sure you understand words before you use them. 'Impose' means 'to apply a rule without consent'. The customs rules that we are seeing are part of the Trade Agreement, they aren't rules that the EU is imposing on us. "Perhaps you can now address the reasons I gave as to why in the case of the automotive industry the amount of cars sold is not the only measure of who needs whom more?" I agree. The amount of cars sold is not the only measure of who needs who more. I never claimed it was. But I can see that you've got a fixed idea in your head of what I'm thinking, and you aren't going to engage in the discussion. I'll leave you to it. | |||
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"As regular as clockwork. You start to to quibble over the definition of a word. Brexit and the subsequent trade agreement requires the imposition of tariff and non+tariff barriers on trade between the UK and the EU. The EU enacted (imposed) those. We still have not enacted (imposed) them. I realise that English isn't your first language, but you really do need to make sure you understand words before you use them. 'Impose' means 'to apply a rule without consent'. The customs rules that we are seeing are part of the Trade Agreement, they aren't rules that the EU is imposing on us. Perhaps you can now address the reasons I gave as to why in the case of the automotive industry the amount of cars sold is not the only measure of who needs whom more? I agree. The amount of cars sold is not the only measure of who needs who more. I never claimed it was. But I can see that you've got a fixed idea in your head of what I'm thinking, and you aren't going to engage in the discussion. I'll leave you to it." That is quite an assumption to make. I don't want to consider how you have come to your conclusion. However, you "realise" incorrectly, as is often the case. Here you are, discussing a definition of a word. Again. 1. force (an unwelcome decision or ruling) on someone. put (a restriction) in place. require (a duty, charge, or penalty) to be undertaken or paid. If you agree that number of cars sold is not the only measure of who needs whom more, then you can explain why you think that is the case with respect to everything else laid out for you to consider. | |||
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"I suspect there is some negotiation to be had as I doubt it impacts both sides equally. Otherwise, whu have the rules of origin in the first place ? In this case, the UK has the upper hand. We export about 300,000 vehicles to the EU every year. The EU sends about 1m vehicles here. If tariffs were to be added, the UK would be raking in more money than it pays out." Bit of a crazy layman's theory here. These tariffs if imposed by both sides, do they automatically go on the price of the products? Or is it possible that the UK government use the tariff money from the imported products to pay the manufacturer's tariffs they get charged when exporting to the EU. Then the price to the customers remains the same. Or is there a rule preventing that?. Seems to easy to be true but worth an ask | |||
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"I suspect there is some negotiation to be had as I doubt it impacts both sides equally. Otherwise, whu have the rules of origin in the first place ? In this case, the UK has the upper hand. We export about 300,000 vehicles to the EU every year. The EU sends about 1m vehicles here. If tariffs were to be added, the UK would be raking in more money than it pays out. Bit of a crazy layman's theory here. These tariffs if imposed by both sides, do they automatically go on the price of the products? Or is it possible that the UK government use the tariff money from the imported products to pay the manufacturer's tariffs they get charged when exporting to the EU. Then the price to the customers remains the same. Or is there a rule preventing that?. Seems to easy to be true but worth an ask" That may be deemed as state aid, which could be taken to the World Trade Organisation, I suppose, which means that the importing country could increase the tariff by the subsidy etc. etc. | |||
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"Bit of a crazy layman's theory here. These tariffs if imposed by both sides, do they automatically go on the price of the products? Or is it possible that the UK government use the tariff money from the imported products to pay the manufacturer's tariffs they get charged when exporting to the EU. Then the price to the customers remains the same. Or is there a rule preventing that?. Seems to easy to be true but worth an ask" Trade tariffs are import taxes. They get paid by whoever imports the item in question, in this case, probably a car dealer. If the government tried what you suggest, they would be sending UK tariff money collected from UK citizens over to the EU to make cars cheaper for EU citizens. I don't think the press would be kind to them for that policy. | |||
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"Bit of a crazy layman's theory here. These tariffs if imposed by both sides, do they automatically go on the price of the products? Or is it possible that the UK government use the tariff money from the imported products to pay the manufacturer's tariffs they get charged when exporting to the EU. Then the price to the customers remains the same. Or is there a rule preventing that?. Seems to easy to be true but worth an ask Trade tariffs are import taxes. They get paid by whoever imports the item in question, in this case, probably a car dealer. If the government tried what you suggest, they would be sending UK tariff money collected from UK citizens over to the EU to make cars cheaper for EU citizens. I don't think the press would be kind to them for that policy." Understood. If that's how they work then yes my crazy idea is indeed crazy | |||
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"Just invest in a UK supply base. I don't believe that there are any lithium mines in the UK. Even if there were, without using child labour they would not be competitive. Until the UK populace insist that imported manufactured goods and foodstuffs comply with the same production standards as home produced goods we will inevitably outsource manufacturing/co2 emissions to a land far far away." The problem primarily relates to rules of origin. S it stands out rechargeable batteries account for about 25 - 30% of an e.v cost and we buy from usa. E.U also has the same problem as their car exporters wills teuggle as they don't jave the capacity to produce the batteries for their expect coming exports of e.v cars. There as a lack of gigafactories. I believe I mentioned this was a poor UK economic choice a few months ths back from 2010 and one of borisis disaster the "ni new petrol vehicles from 2030" We never had and never will have the capacity for recharging by then nor the abilitity to make the batteries.( neither will e.u) A disastrous policy which will be overturned. Because it was simply dreamland and fantasy. | |||
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"Just invest in a UK supply base. I don't believe that there are any lithium mines in the UK. Even if there were, without using child labour they would not be competitive. Until the UK populace insist that imported manufactured goods and foodstuffs comply with the same production standards as home produced goods we will inevitably outsource manufacturing/co2 emissions to a land far far away. The problem primarily relates to rules of origin. S it stands out rechargeable batteries account for about 25 - 30% of an e.v cost and we buy from usa. E.U also has the same problem as their car exporters wills teuggle as they don't jave the capacity to produce the batteries for their expect coming exports of e.v cars. There as a lack of gigafactories. I believe I mentioned this was a poor UK economic choice a few months ths back from 2010 and one of borisis disaster the "ni new petrol vehicles from 2030" We never had and never will have the capacity for recharging by then nor the abilitity to make the batteries.( neither will e.u) A disastrous policy which will be overturned. Because it was simply dreamland and fantasy. " It may get delayed a couple of years but I can assure you that electric cars are the future, you need to stop being a Luddite | |||
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"Just invest in a UK supply base. I don't believe that there are any lithium mines in the UK. Even if there were, without using child labour they would not be competitive. Until the UK populace insist that imported manufactured goods and foodstuffs comply with the same production standards as home produced goods we will inevitably outsource manufacturing/co2 emissions to a land far far away. The problem primarily relates to rules of origin. S it stands out rechargeable batteries account for about 25 - 30% of an e.v cost and we buy from usa. E.U also has the same problem as their car exporters wills teuggle as they don't jave the capacity to produce the batteries for their expect coming exports of e.v cars. There as a lack of gigafactories. I believe I mentioned this was a poor UK economic choice a few months ths back from 2010 and one of borisis disaster the "ni new petrol vehicles from 2030" We never had and never will have the capacity for recharging by then nor the abilitity to make the batteries.( neither will e.u) A disastrous policy which will be overturned. Because it was simply dreamland and fantasy. It may get delayed a couple of years but I can assure you that electric cars are the future, you need to stop being a Luddite "Oh I've no doubt they are coming. Government policy will see to it. Regardless of cost. I highly doubt every new car will have to be electric by 2030 though. | |||
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"Just invest in a UK supply base. I don't believe that there are any lithium mines in the UK. Even if there were, without using child labour they would not be competitive. Until the UK populace insist that imported manufactured goods and foodstuffs comply with the same production standards as home produced goods we will inevitably outsource manufacturing/co2 emissions to a land far far away. The problem primarily relates to rules of origin. S it stands out rechargeable batteries account for about 25 - 30% of an e.v cost and we buy from usa. E.U also has the same problem as their car exporters wills teuggle as they don't jave the capacity to produce the batteries for their expect coming exports of e.v cars. There as a lack of gigafactories. I believe I mentioned this was a poor UK economic choice a few months ths back from 2010 and one of borisis disaster the "ni new petrol vehicles from 2030" We never had and never will have the capacity for recharging by then nor the abilitity to make the batteries.( neither will e.u) A disastrous policy which will be overturned. Because it was simply dreamland and fantasy. It may get delayed a couple of years but I can assure you that electric cars are the future, you need to stop being a Luddite
Oh I've no doubt they are coming.
Government policy will see to it. Regardless of cost.
I highly doubt every new car will have to be electric by 2030 though."Every new car , you have to move with the times | |||
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"Just invest in a UK supply base. I don't believe that there are any lithium mines in the UK. Even if there were, without using child labour they would not be competitive. Until the UK populace insist that imported manufactured goods and foodstuffs comply with the same production standards as home produced goods we will inevitably outsource manufacturing/co2 emissions to a land far far away. The problem primarily relates to rules of origin. S it stands out rechargeable batteries account for about 25 - 30% of an e.v cost and we buy from usa. E.U also has the same problem as their car exporters wills teuggle as they don't jave the capacity to produce the batteries for their expect coming exports of e.v cars. There as a lack of gigafactories. I believe I mentioned this was a poor UK economic choice a few months ths back from 2010 and one of borisis disaster the "ni new petrol vehicles from 2030" We never had and never will have the capacity for recharging by then nor the abilitity to make the batteries.( neither will e.u) A disastrous policy which will be overturned. Because it was simply dreamland and fantasy. It may get delayed a couple of years but I can assure you that electric cars are the future, you need to stop being a Luddite
Oh I've no doubt they are coming.
Government policy will see to it. Regardless of cost.
I highly doubt every new car will have to be electric by 2030 though.
Every new car , you have to move with the times "Industry experts think differently. https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-12108457/Ban-petrol-diesel-cars-faces-axe-EV-fears.html | |||
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"I can assure you that electric cars are the future, you need to stop being a Luddite" I think we all agree that electric cars will be the vast majority of vehicles in the future. The problem is that we won't have the energy capacity or infrastructure to charge them all for quite some time. Setting the target at at 2030 is aiming far too soon. | |||
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"Bit of a crazy layman's theory here. These tariffs if imposed by both sides, do they automatically go on the price of the products? Or is it possible that the UK government use the tariff money from the imported products to pay the manufacturer's tariffs they get charged when exporting to the EU. Then the price to the customers remains the same. Or is there a rule preventing that?. Seems to easy to be true but worth an ask Trade tariffs are import taxes. They get paid by whoever imports the item in question, in this case, probably a car dealer. If the government tried what you suggest, they would be sending UK tariff money collected from UK citizens over to the EU to make cars cheaper for EU citizens. I don't think the press would be kind to them for that policy." No, I think the suggestion is that the UK Government pays for our exporters' tariffs with the money collected from EU imports. The UK Government paying the EU tariff wouldn't make the vehicles cheaper for EU citizens anymore than UK exporters paying the tariff. The importation cost of the vehicle to the EU would still be higher. | |||
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"Just invest in a UK supply base. I don't believe that there are any lithium mines in the UK. Even if there were, without using child labour they would not be competitive. Until the UK populace insist that imported manufactured goods and foodstuffs comply with the same production standards as home produced goods we will inevitably outsource manufacturing/co2 emissions to a land far far away. The problem primarily relates to rules of origin. S it stands out rechargeable batteries account for about 25 - 30% of an e.v cost and we buy from usa. E.U also has the same problem as their car exporters wills teuggle as they don't jave the capacity to produce the batteries for their expect coming exports of e.v cars. There as a lack of gigafactories. I believe I mentioned this was a poor UK economic choice a few months ths back from 2010 and one of borisis disaster the "ni new petrol vehicles from 2030" We never had and never will have the capacity for recharging by then nor the abilitity to make the batteries.( neither will e.u) A disastrous policy which will be overturned. Because it was simply dreamland and fantasy. It may get delayed a couple of years but I can assure you that electric cars are the future, you need to stop being a Luddite
Oh I've no doubt they are coming.
Government policy will see to it. Regardless of cost.
I highly doubt every new car will have to be electric by 2030 though.
Every new car , you have to move with the times
Industry experts think differently.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-12108457/Ban-petrol-diesel-cars-faces-axe-EV-fears.html"There is currently a lack of public chargers. People do have charger anxiety, but largely misplaced as few people drive beyond 30-40 miles. Few people, not all. That doesn't make EVs unviable. Most will be charged at home most of the time. The petrol/diesel fleet will take 20+ years to replace. There is a lot of infrastructure build happening. Compare a public charger map from 10, 5 or even 2 years ago to now. Still too slow and there will probably be a point where demand exceeds supply, but it will be resolved. The main problem is the UK trying to switch five years before the EU. That is likely to end up being moved back to synchronise with the main market. | |||
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"No, I think the suggestion is that the UK Government pays for our exporters' tariffs with the money collected from EU imports." There are no export tariffs. That would be impossible to enforce. If the EU instituted a 10% trade tariff on UK cars, it would be EU citizens paying an extra 10% import tax, with the money going to the EU coffers. | |||
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"Just invest in a UK supply base. I don't believe that there are any lithium mines in the UK. Even if there were, without using child labour they would not be competitive. Until the UK populace insist that imported manufactured goods and foodstuffs comply with the same production standards as home produced goods we will inevitably outsource manufacturing/co2 emissions to a land far far away. The problem primarily relates to rules of origin. S it stands out rechargeable batteries account for about 25 - 30% of an e.v cost and we buy from usa. E.U also has the same problem as their car exporters wills teuggle as they don't jave the capacity to produce the batteries for their expect coming exports of e.v cars. There as a lack of gigafactories. I believe I mentioned this was a poor UK economic choice a few months ths back from 2010 and one of borisis disaster the "ni new petrol vehicles from 2030" We never had and never will have the capacity for recharging by then nor the abilitity to make the batteries.( neither will e.u) A disastrous policy which will be overturned. Because it was simply dreamland and fantasy. It may get delayed a couple of years but I can assure you that electric cars are the future, you need to stop being a Luddite
Oh I've no doubt they are coming.
Government policy will see to it. Regardless of cost.
I highly doubt every new car will have to be electric by 2030 though.
Every new car , you have to move with the times
Industry experts think differently.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-12108457/Ban-petrol-diesel-cars-faces-axe-EV-fears.html
There is currently a lack of public chargers. People do have charger anxiety, but largely misplaced as few people drive beyond 30-40 miles. Few people, not all.
That doesn't make EVs unviable. Most will be charged at home most of the time.
The petrol/diesel fleet will take 20+ years to replace.
There is a lot of infrastructure build happening. Compare a public charger map from 10, 5 or even 2 years ago to now.
Still too slow and there will probably be a point where demand exceeds supply, but it will be resolved.
The main problem is the UK trying to switch five years before the EU. That is likely to end up being moved back to synchronise with the main market."I don't disagree with anything you've said. I was just providing an article that counters fabs 'it'll be done by 2030' | |||
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"No, I think the suggestion is that the UK Government pays for our exporters' tariffs with the money collected from EU imports. There are no export tariffs. That would be impossible to enforce. If the EU instituted a 10% trade tariff on UK cars, it would be EU citizens paying an extra 10% import tax, with the money going to the EU coffers." The tariffs paid by companies exporting from the UK into the EU. "Exporters' tariffs" not "export tariffs". The question originally posed is could the UK Government pay those tariffs to the EU instead of the companies selling to the EU. I think that you answered something else. | |||
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"I still think there could be a curve ball with eFuel. The more I hear about it and the way it will be manufactured the more I'm inclined to think it will become a betamax / VHS battle. eFuel will be CO2 neutral and therefore cleaner. " I can't enter into a discussion about this because I will be told that it is not on topic 
I disagree though. Aviation fuel as a transitional solution, not cars.
Too expensive and energy inefficient. | |||
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"I still think there could be a curve ball with eFuel. The more I hear about it and the way it will be manufactured the more I'm inclined to think it will become a betamax / VHS battle. eFuel will be CO2 neutral and therefore cleaner. I can't enter into a discussion about this because I will be told that it is not on topic
I disagree though. Aviation fuel as a transitional solution, not cars.
Too expensive and energy inefficient."Right now it is very expensive as is anything being made in small quantities. If the output can be scaled up, which is the plan the cost will plummet. | |||
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"I still think there could be a curve ball with eFuel. The more I hear about it and the way it will be manufactured the more I'm inclined to think it will become a betamax / VHS battle. eFuel will be CO2 neutral and therefore cleaner. I can't enter into a discussion about this because I will be told that it is not on topic
I disagree though. Aviation fuel as a transitional solution, not cars.
Too expensive and energy inefficient.
Right now it is very expensive as is anything being made in small quantities. If the output can be scaled up, which is the plan the cost will plummet. "I'm absolutely confident it can be scaled and will be a very useful alternative. | |||
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"I still think there could be a curve ball with eFuel. The more I hear about it and the way it will be manufactured the more I'm inclined to think it will become a betamax / VHS battle. eFuel will be CO2 neutral and therefore cleaner. I can't enter into a discussion about this because I will be told that it is not on topic
I disagree though. Aviation fuel as a transitional solution, not cars.
Too expensive and energy inefficient.
Right now it is very expensive as is anything being made in small quantities. If the output can be scaled up, which is the plan the cost will plummet.
I'm absolutely confident it can be scaled and will be a very useful alternative."I believe that too! The way they are taking CO2 out of the air and putting it back into the fuel is mind boggling stuff! No further pollutants CO2 neutral, just what the world is asking for, I can't see what is not to like about this other than the investment car manufacturers have made in EV production | |||
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"I still think there could be a curve ball with eFuel. The more I hear about it and the way it will be manufactured the more I'm inclined to think it will become a betamax / VHS battle. eFuel will be CO2 neutral and therefore cleaner. I can't enter into a discussion about this because I will be told that it is not on topic
I disagree though. Aviation fuel as a transitional solution, not cars.
Too expensive and energy inefficient.
Right now it is very expensive as is anything being made in small quantities. If the output can be scaled up, which is the plan the cost will plummet.
I'm absolutely confident it can be scaled and will be a very useful alternative.
I believe that too! The way they are taking CO2 out of the air and putting it back into the fuel is mind boggling stuff! No further pollutants CO2 neutral, just what the world is asking for, I can't see what is not to like about this other than the investment car manufacturers have made in EV production "You are using the data and press information provided by the organisations funding the industry. Have you looked at any other sources? It will not scale economically in the way that you believe. It doesn't even function now in the way that you seem to think. We have been through basic maths of this before just on an energy basis. You didn't have an argument against it then but you still choose to believe this for some reason. | |||
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"I still think there could be a curve ball with eFuel. The more I hear about it and the way it will be manufactured the more I'm inclined to think it will become a betamax / VHS battle. eFuel will be CO2 neutral and therefore cleaner. I can't enter into a discussion about this because I will be told that it is not on topic
I disagree though. Aviation fuel as a transitional solution, not cars.
Too expensive and energy inefficient.
Right now it is very expensive as is anything being made in small quantities. If the output can be scaled up, which is the plan the cost will plummet.
I'm absolutely confident it can be scaled and will be a very useful alternative.
I believe that too! The way they are taking CO2 out of the air and putting it back into the fuel is mind boggling stuff! No further pollutants CO2 neutral, just what the world is asking for, I can't see what is not to like about this other than the investment car manufacturers have made in EV production
You are using the data and press information provided by the organisations funding the industry. Have you looked at any other sources?
It will not scale economically in the way that you believe. It doesn't even function now in the way that you seem to think.
We have been through basic maths of this before just on an energy basis. You didn't have an argument against it then but you still choose to believe this for some reason."I don't understand the tech enough to argue, however listening to the potential and plans I think it makes perfect sense and I do expect to see movement towards a greater take up of this supported by the EU. | |||
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"I still think there could be a curve ball with eFuel. The more I hear about it and the way it will be manufactured the more I'm inclined to think it will become a betamax / VHS battle. eFuel will be CO2 neutral and therefore cleaner. I can't enter into a discussion about this because I will be told that it is not on topic
I disagree though. Aviation fuel as a transitional solution, not cars.
Too expensive and energy inefficient.
Right now it is very expensive as is anything being made in small quantities. If the output can be scaled up, which is the plan the cost will plummet.
I'm absolutely confident it can be scaled and will be a very useful alternative.
I believe that too! The way they are taking CO2 out of the air and putting it back into the fuel is mind boggling stuff! No further pollutants CO2 neutral, just what the world is asking for, I can't see what is not to like about this other than the investment car manufacturers have made in EV production
You are using the data and press information provided by the organisations funding the industry. Have you looked at any other sources?
It will not scale economically in the way that you believe. It doesn't even function now in the way that you seem to think.
We have been through basic maths of this before just on an energy basis. You didn't have an argument against it then but you still choose to believe this for some reason.
I don't understand the tech enough to argue, however listening to the potential and plans I think it makes perfect sense and I do expect to see movement towards a greater take up of this supported by the EU."You don't understand it but you like the story? Fair enough. You make your decisions how you choose. Synthetic fuels were not and are not "supported" by the EU. They were incorporated into legislation at the last minute after heavy lobbying by the German combustion engine suppliers through their Government. There will be greater take up in aviation and possibly shipping which are hard to abate. If the intention is to actually reduce CO2 emissions and minimise the impacts of climate change then hydrogen should be generated for use in the iron and steel industry instead of for road transport. Every kW will provide far more benefit with far less waste. But story rather than science... | |||
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"I still think there could be a curve ball with eFuel. The more I hear about it and the way it will be manufactured the more I'm inclined to think it will become a betamax / VHS battle. eFuel will be CO2 neutral and therefore cleaner. I can't enter into a discussion about this because I will be told that it is not on topic
I disagree though. Aviation fuel as a transitional solution, not cars.
Too expensive and energy inefficient.
Right now it is very expensive as is anything being made in small quantities. If the output can be scaled up, which is the plan the cost will plummet.
I'm absolutely confident it can be scaled and will be a very useful alternative.
I believe that too! The way they are taking CO2 out of the air and putting it back into the fuel is mind boggling stuff! No further pollutants CO2 neutral, just what the world is asking for, I can't see what is not to like about this other than the investment car manufacturers have made in EV production
You are using the data and press information provided by the organisations funding the industry. Have you looked at any other sources?
It will not scale economically in the way that you believe. It doesn't even function now in the way that you seem to think.
We have been through basic maths of this before just on an energy basis. You didn't have an argument against it then but you still choose to believe this for some reason.
I don't understand the tech enough to argue, however listening to the potential and plans I think it makes perfect sense and I do expect to see movement towards a greater take up of this supported by the EU.
You don't understand it but you like the story?
Fair enough. You make your decisions how you choose.
Synthetic fuels were not and are not "supported" by the EU. They were incorporated into legislation at the last minute after heavy lobbying by the German combustion engine suppliers through their Government.
There will be greater take up in aviation and possibly shipping which are hard to abate.
If the intention is to actually reduce CO2 emissions and minimise the impacts of climate change then hydrogen should be generated for use in the iron and steel industry instead of for road transport. Every kW will provide far more benefit with far less waste.
But story rather than science..."I don't understand the tech behind the fuel but I have the ability to understand the potential and the application after listening to experts in the field, and if they can get the production right it will make perfect sense for past and future cars. It might not come to fruition but with big names behind it and the potential it has, I wouldn't back against it. | |||
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"No, I think the suggestion is that the UK Government pays for our exporters' tariffs with the money collected from EU imports." "There are no export tariffs. That would be impossible to enforce. If the EU instituted a 10% trade tariff on UK cars, it would be EU citizens paying an extra 10% import tax, with the money going to the EU coffers." "The tariffs paid by companies exporting from the UK into the EU. "Exporters' tariffs" not "export tariffs". The question originally posed is could the UK Government pay those tariffs to the EU instead of the companies selling to the EU." I don't know how to make this clear to you. There are no export tariffs. There are no exporters' tariffs. If the EU implements a 10% tariff, no one in the UK will be asked to pay it. Not people, not companies, not government. The EU tariff will only be paid by EU companies and citizens that import UK goods. | |||
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"I still think there could be a curve ball with eFuel. The more I hear about it and the way it will be manufactured the more I'm inclined to think it will become a betamax / VHS battle. eFuel will be CO2 neutral and therefore cleaner. I can't enter into a discussion about this because I will be told that it is not on topic
I disagree though. Aviation fuel as a transitional solution, not cars.
Too expensive and energy inefficient.
Right now it is very expensive as is anything being made in small quantities. If the output can be scaled up, which is the plan the cost will plummet.
I'm absolutely confident it can be scaled and will be a very useful alternative.
I believe that too! The way they are taking CO2 out of the air and putting it back into the fuel is mind boggling stuff! No further pollutants CO2 neutral, just what the world is asking for, I can't see what is not to like about this other than the investment car manufacturers have made in EV production
You are using the data and press information provided by the organisations funding the industry. Have you looked at any other sources?
It will not scale economically in the way that you believe. It doesn't even function now in the way that you seem to think.
We have been through basic maths of this before just on an energy basis. You didn't have an argument against it then but you still choose to believe this for some reason.
I don't understand the tech enough to argue, however listening to the potential and plans I think it makes perfect sense and I do expect to see movement towards a greater take up of this supported by the EU.
You don't understand it but you like the story?
Fair enough. You make your decisions how you choose.
Synthetic fuels were not and are not "supported" by the EU. They were incorporated into legislation at the last minute after heavy lobbying by the German combustion engine suppliers through their Government.
There will be greater take up in aviation and possibly shipping which are hard to abate.
If the intention is to actually reduce CO2 emissions and minimise the impacts of climate change then hydrogen should be generated for use in the iron and steel industry instead of for road transport. Every kW will provide far more benefit with far less waste.
But story rather than science...
I don't understand the tech behind the fuel but I have the ability to understand the potential and the application after listening to experts in the field, and if they can get the production right it will make perfect sense for past and future cars.
It might not come to fruition but with big names behind it and the potential it has, I wouldn't back against it.
"Why are you choosing to only listen to those who are invested in it though? The "big names" want it for their premium cars. The main support is from companies invested in combustion engine production and oil companies who want to mix it with normal fossil fuels to make them "cleaner". 2% mix rising to x% over 20 years. They get to delay transition and keep making profits. Not conspiracy, just fossil fuel capitalism with a "green story". | |||
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"No, I think the suggestion is that the UK Government pays for our exporters' tariffs with the money collected from EU imports. There are no export tariffs. That would be impossible to enforce. If the EU instituted a 10% trade tariff on UK cars, it would be EU citizens paying an extra 10% import tax, with the money going to the EU coffers. The tariffs paid by companies exporting from the UK into the EU. "Exporters' tariffs" not "export tariffs". The question originally posed is could the UK Government pay those tariffs to the EU instead of the companies selling to the EU. I don't know how to make this clear to you. There are no export tariffs. There are no exporters' tariffs. If the EU implements a 10% tariff, no one in the UK will be asked to pay it. Not people, not companies, not government. The EU tariff will only be paid by EU companies and citizens that import UK goods." Ah, yes. You were the one telling me that English wasn't my native language. The UK Government could decide it wants to pay the import tariff to the EU on behalf of all exporters from the UK. So either to them directly to discount the product or to the importers to compensate for the tariff. There's nothing to prevent anyone from paying anything on behalf of someone else should they choose to. It is not an "export tariff". It is an "import tariff" whoever pays it. Just for clarity, if Mini exports ones of it's cars from the UK to Germany for sale in their showroom somebody pays the tariff at the border. Who do you think that might be? | |||
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"No, I think the suggestion is that the UK Government pays for our exporters' tariffs with the money collected from EU imports. There are no export tariffs. That would be impossible to enforce. If the EU instituted a 10% trade tariff on UK cars, it would be EU citizens paying an extra 10% import tax, with the money going to the EU coffers. The tariffs paid by companies exporting from the UK into the EU. "Exporters' tariffs" not "export tariffs". The question originally posed is could the UK Government pay those tariffs to the EU instead of the companies selling to the EU. I don't know how to make this clear to you. There are no export tariffs. There are no exporters' tariffs. If the EU implements a 10% tariff, no one in the UK will be asked to pay it. Not people, not companies, not government. The EU tariff will only be paid by EU companies and citizens that import UK goods. Ah, yes. You were the one telling me that English wasn't my native language. The UK Government could decide it wants to pay the import tariff to the EU on behalf of all exporters from the UK. So either to them directly to discount the product or to the importers to compensate for the tariff. There's nothing to prevent anyone from paying anything on behalf of someone else should they choose to. It is not an "export tariff". It is an "import tariff" whoever pays it. Just for clarity, if Mini exports ones of it's cars from the UK to Germany for sale in their showroom somebody pays the tariff at the border. Who do you think that might be?" I don't think any sane German would buy a mini in the first place  | |||
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"No, I think the suggestion is that the UK Government pays for our exporters' tariffs with the money collected from EU imports. There are no export tariffs. That would be impossible to enforce. If the EU instituted a 10% trade tariff on UK cars, it would be EU citizens paying an extra 10% import tax, with the money going to the EU coffers. The tariffs paid by companies exporting from the UK into the EU. "Exporters' tariffs" not "export tariffs". The question originally posed is could the UK Government pay those tariffs to the EU instead of the companies selling to the EU. I don't know how to make this clear to you. There are no export tariffs. There are no exporters' tariffs. If the EU implements a 10% tariff, no one in the UK will be asked to pay it. Not people, not companies, not government. The EU tariff will only be paid by EU companies and citizens that import UK goods. Ah, yes. You were the one telling me that English wasn't my native language. The UK Government could decide it wants to pay the import tariff to the EU on behalf of all exporters from the UK. So either to them directly to discount the product or to the importers to compensate for the tariff. There's nothing to prevent anyone from paying anything on behalf of someone else should they choose to. It is not an "export tariff". It is an "import tariff" whoever pays it. Just for clarity, if Mini exports ones of it's cars from the UK to Germany for sale in their showroom somebody pays the tariff at the border. Who do you think that might be? I don't think any sane German would buy a mini in the first place "Stupid Brits, Germans and Americans then. Top three markets according to BMW (who owns the brand): UK 46,757 units Germany 40,251 units USA 29,504 units | |||
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"The UK Government could decide it wants to pay the import tariff to the EU on behalf of all exporters from the UK. So either to them directly to discount the product or to the importers to compensate for the tariff. There's nothing to prevent anyone from paying anything on behalf of someone else should they choose to." How would they do that? The UK government would have to contact each and every person/company that bought a UK vehicle, to get them to forward on the payment details, so that it could be paid. That's the scenario that was discussed earlier on, and we all agreed it was 'crazy'. "It is not an "export tariff". It is an "import tariff" whoever pays it." Yes, that's what I keep saying, while you keep coming up with different versions of the word 'export' to define it. "Just for clarity, if Mini exports ones of it's cars from the UK to Germany for sale in their showroom somebody pays the tariff at the border. Who do you think that might be?" That will be whichever dealership bought the vehicle. BMW GmbH might own 1 or 2 Mini showrooms, but the vast majority will be independent companies running a Mini franchise. | |||
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