FabSwingers.com > Forums > Politics > Universal Basic Income
Universal Basic Income
Jump to: Newest in thread
A system of Universal Basic Income is being trialled whereby a monthly payment of £1,600 is made regardless of circumstances. The question is, should those getting money for nothing also get their chicks for free?
Seriously, what are we to make of this? Maybe with AI coming we just get paid for staying at home. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
 |
By *irldnCouple 45 weeks ago
Brighton |
My understanding is that UBI replaces ALL other benefits and the state pension. Also it is “universal” so everyone gets it including people earning six figure salaries (which is correct otherwise it becomes a means tested benefit).
Part of the cost to fund UBI in UK would be met by not paying any other benefits or state pension (not sure how much that adds up to) or the required administration of all those benefits and pensions (not sure how much that adds up to either). The criticism is that £1600 a month for all adults in the UK works out around £1tn a year (I have read not checked the maths myself) so is it actually achievable?
Also not sure if that is £1600 a month tax free? As the majority of people would take that money (thanks v much, nice couple of holidays a year) but continue to work, would that impact on your tax thresholds? Anyone know? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
There was a study done a few years back
https://basicincome.org/news/2020/09/the-cost-of-a-full-basic-income-for-the-united-kingdom-would-be-67-billion-per-year-3-4-of-gdp/#:~:text=The%20cost%20of%20a%20full%20UBI%20for%20the%20United%20Kingdom,and%20%C2%A33%2C853%20for%20children. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *irldnCouple 45 weeks ago
Brighton |
"£1600 a month is enough to live on so I could then retire.
Sounds excellent."
You guys are 52 & 49. Would you not continue working at least until late 50s to bolster your income and build up a bigger nest egg for a comfortable retirement? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *irldnCouple 45 weeks ago
Brighton |
"There was a study done a few years back
https://basicincome.org/news/2020/09/the-cost-of-a-full-basic-income-for-the-united-kingdom-would-be-67-billion-per-year-3-4-of-gdp/#:~:text=The%20cost%20of%20a%20full%20UBI%20for%20the%20United%20Kingdom,and%20%C2%A33%2C853%20for%20children."
Not looked at this yet but the URL says cost is £67bn a year so not sure who is correcf re the people saying £1tn? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"£1600 a month is enough to live on so I could then retire.
Sounds excellent.
You guys are 52 & 49. Would you not continue working at least until late 50s to bolster your income and build up a bigger nest egg for a comfortable retirement?"
No.
We are hopefully looking at 30 years requiring retirement money. Retire now and enjoy life economically, or gamble on still being healthy in 10 years time, and lose 1/3 of the enjoyable times.
Retire now would be the choice. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"There was a study done a few years back
https://basicincome.org/news/2020/09/the-cost-of-a-full-basic-income-for-the-united-kingdom-would-be-67-billion-per-year-3-4-of-gdp/#:~:text=The%20cost%20of%20a%20full%20UBI%20for%20the%20United%20Kingdom,and%20%C2%A33%2C853%20for%20children.
Not looked at this yet but the URL says cost is £67bn a year so not sure who is correcf re the people saying £1tn?"
Have a read when you get a chance. It speak of increased tax for net beneficiaries (although they would still receive more than they'd pay back in tax, or something like that) as well as the 67bn being the net cost.
It could well be that 1tn is the gross cost, so both figures could be correct. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ercuryMan 45 weeks ago
Grantham |
All the trials of this have ended in the schemes not being taken forward.
We still need people to work, and many will, but many will see the opportunity to retire early.
It will.be interesting to see the make up of the 2 x 30 people involved.
|
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *irldnCouple 45 weeks ago
Brighton |
"£1600 a month is enough to live on so I could then retire.
Sounds excellent.
You guys are 52 & 49. Would you not continue working at least until late 50s to bolster your income and build up a bigger nest egg for a comfortable retirement?
No.
We are hopefully looking at 30 years requiring retirement money. Retire now and enjoy life economically, or gamble on still being healthy in 10 years time, and lose 1/3 of the enjoyable times.
Retire now would be the choice."
Fair enough and totally your prerogative. Just curious though. Being more optimistic, What if you both have 40yrs of retirement and stay healthy for another 10yrs. Bigger private pension pot. More savings (could stick £1k of that £1600 a month away for ten years giving you £120k and enjoy an extra £600 a month in the meantime on top of salary).
Anyway, nothing to do with me was just curious. Unlikely UBI will happen anyway! |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *irldnCouple 45 weeks ago
Brighton |
"All the trials of this have ended in the schemes not being taken forward.
We still need people to work, and many will, but many will see the opportunity to retire early.
It will.be interesting to see the make up of the 2 x 30 people involved.
"
30 people in the receive group is a pitifully small research sample! For statistical robustness that needed to be 1,000 people receiving and a 1,000 control group (not receiving). And yes, multiple demographics within that 1,000 which will be impossible with just 30! |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *irldnCouple 45 weeks ago
Brighton |
"I don't understand how this would work in practice, can someone tell me how it is supposed to work, be funded and the benefits it would bring?"
Can only talk in broad brush principles but see my first post  |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *otMe66Man 45 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"I don't understand how this would work in practice, can someone tell me how it is supposed to work, be funded and the benefits it would bring?
Can only talk in broad brush principles but see my first post "
Does this idea have roots in communism? I could see a weaker workforce, demand for products would push prices up to the point we would be adding 000's on to a can of beans and the house market would be even less affordable. Free money and capitalism are not best of friends. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *irldnCouple 45 weeks ago
Brighton |
"I don't understand how this would work in practice, can someone tell me how it is supposed to work, be funded and the benefits it would bring?
Can only talk in broad brush principles but see my first post
Does this idea have roots in communism? I could see a weaker workforce, demand for products would push prices up to the point we would be adding 000's on to a can of beans and the house market would be even less affordable. Free money and capitalism are not best of friends. "
No idea. It does feel utopian and sinister in equal measure to me. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"I don't understand how this would work in practice, can someone tell me how it is supposed to work, be funded and the benefits it would bring?
Can only talk in broad brush principles but see my first post
Does this idea have roots in communism? I could see a weaker workforce, demand for products would push prices up to the point we would be adding 000's on to a can of beans and the house market would be even less affordable. Free money and capitalism are not best of friends.
No idea. It does feel utopian and sinister in equal measure to me.
"
I think for it to really work many other things need to change, and be put in place.
Affordable (and available!) social housing, preferably managed by local authorities with support from central government to keep rents low would seem to be almost essential.
Re-nationalisation of our utilities to take them out of the cost of living equation would also help.
Mr C |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
It's to make you entirely subservient and dependant on the state. It sounds like the brain child of the kind of people who come from wealthy families and haven't been short of money themselves to be honest. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
It's an alluring idea.
Instead of working for my boss and putting money in his pocket, I could retire and do part time charity work, helping people more needy than my boss.
I could then choose to donate my labour where I liked.
It would also have the effect of bringing down the wages of CEO's which are out of kilter, because a reduced pool of workers means wages will go up and companies will have to rein in excessive profits.
So you won't see the likes of BT making billions of profit whilst cutting 50,000 staff.
1. They won't have enough staff to cut 50,000 as many would have retired on UBI and
2. Those that do remain will have to be paid higher wages for retention.
Net result ? Obscene profits will need to be brought under control and days of CEO's being paid 100-300 times their workers average wages will normalise back to 10-20. Shareholders will need to temper their expectations as well, so devolving some of their power is no bad thing either. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
What a dumb idea.
I guess if the government is so bad it can’t fix the economy or borders, it has to result to desk based admin work like this to justify its existence.
This has to be commie Europe / UK right? The place where the government decide how much people should spend on clothes, food, alcohol etc. just give everyone coupons/ rations for stuff instead |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Shareholders will need to temper their expectations as well,"
Do you mean the 65 million shareholders relying on these profits for pensions, infrastructure, health etc. just tell them go live in a field and live on wild berries, wash their clothes in a stream, they will be fine. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
I think everybody should be given a Universal Basic Everything when they come of age,that would be a safe kick-off point for the rest of their lives.If they want to stay there,fine.If they want to improve themselves,then get a job.Nobody should ever be homeless or forced to beg/steal for food. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site) 45 weeks ago
|
"Shareholders will need to temper their expectations as well,
Do you mean the 65 million shareholders relying on these profits for pensions, infrastructure, health etc. just tell them go live in a field and live on wild berries, wash their clothes in a stream, they will be fine."
You spend 50% of your time in Dubai where the emirates nationals get nearly everything free  |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *otMe66Man 45 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"I think everybody should be given a Universal Basic Everything when they come of age,that would be a safe kick-off point for the rest of their lives.If they want to stay there,fine.If they want to improve themselves,then get a job.Nobody should ever be homeless or forced to beg/steal for food."
Where does the money come from to support nobody needing to work if they don't want to, food, housing etc.
Communism doesn't work
|
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *hirleyMan 45 weeks ago
somewhere |
https://youtube.com/watch?v=kl39KHS07Xc&feature=share8
Old video, but important basics for the concept behind UBI.
This channel do show slight bias I've always felt towards one argument or another, despite claiming impartiality (I don't think absolute impartiality is possible from humans) but the main reason I like their videos is they explain stuff in layman's and give you most if not all of the facts. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *hirleyMan 45 weeks ago
somewhere |
"I think everybody should be given a Universal Basic Everything when they come of age,that would be a safe kick-off point for the rest of their lives.If they want to stay there,fine.If they want to improve themselves,then get a job.Nobody should ever be homeless or forced to beg/steal for food.
Where does the money come from to support nobody needing to work if they don't want to, food, housing etc.
Communism doesn't work
"
What's UBI got to do with communism? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *hirleyMan 45 weeks ago
somewhere |
"Shareholders will need to temper their expectations as well,
Do you mean the 65 million shareholders relying on these profits for pensions, infrastructure, health etc. just tell them go live in a field and live on wild berries, wash their clothes in a stream, they will be fine."
UBI replaces state pension |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *otMe66Man 45 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"I think everybody should be given a Universal Basic Everything when they come of age,that would be a safe kick-off point for the rest of their lives.If they want to stay there,fine.If they want to improve themselves,then get a job.Nobody should ever be homeless or forced to beg/steal for food.
Where does the money come from to support nobody needing to work if they don't want to, food, housing etc.
Communism doesn't work
What's UBI got to do with communism?"
Work, don't work, everyone gets an allowance of the same amount, the mention of social housing from other supporting UBI.
Tell me how it isn't, I did say further up I would like to understand more about this as it seems there are experiments with no known framework other than monitoring effects of giving people this money and failed experiments in other countries that don't go into detail.
|
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *otMe66Man 45 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"https://youtube.com/watch?v=kl39KHS07Xc&feature=share8
Old video, but important basics for the concept behind UBI.
This channel do show slight bias I've always felt towards one argument or another, despite claiming impartiality (I don't think absolute impartiality is possible from humans) but the main reason I like their videos is they explain stuff in layman's and give you most if not all of the facts."
Missed this, I will take a look later |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
In theory if we had this system, could everyone of working age and pensioners claim this at the same time with no one actually going to work? Or in a less severe example far less people opt to work while the rest opt not to and just use the benefit? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"In theory if we had this system, could everyone of working age and pensioners claim this at the same time with no one actually going to work? Or in a less severe example far less people opt to work while the rest opt not to and just use the benefit?"
The studies show that very few people decide not to work.
This would replace all benefits and is a 'basic' income, not really enough to give up work. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"In theory if we had this system, could everyone of working age and pensioners claim this at the same time with no one actually going to work? Or in a less severe example far less people opt to work while the rest opt not to and just use the benefit?
The studies show that very few people decide not to work.
This would replace all benefits and is a 'basic' income, not really enough to give up work."
Yes it is. As stated earlier I earn less that that. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"In theory if we had this system, could everyone of working age and pensioners claim this at the same time with no one actually going to work? Or in a less severe example far less people opt to work while the rest opt not to and just use the benefit?
The studies show that very few people decide not to work.
This would replace all benefits and is a 'basic' income, not really enough to give up work.
Yes it is. As stated earlier I earn less that that."
With UC top ups? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"In theory if we had this system, could everyone of working age and pensioners claim this at the same time with no one actually going to work? Or in a less severe example far less people opt to work while the rest opt not to and just use the benefit?
The studies show that very few people decide not to work.
This would replace all benefits and is a 'basic' income, not really enough to give up work."
I understand and would also want to work too but in theory I was wondering if everyone gave up work. Or a significant proportion gave up work. Don't get me wrong, I find it an interesting idea. One of the doubts is that since covid plenty of 50 plus people have stopped work and are actively having to be encouraged back as it has caused problems. I fear this may lead to the same or similar problems for all age groups. Then again it might be a roaring success |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"In theory if we had this system, could everyone of working age and pensioners claim this at the same time with no one actually going to work? Or in a less severe example far less people opt to work while the rest opt not to and just use the benefit?
The studies show that very few people decide not to work.
This would replace all benefits and is a 'basic' income, not really enough to give up work.
I understand and would also want to work too but in theory I was wondering if everyone gave up work. Or a significant proportion gave up work. Don't get me wrong, I find it an interesting idea. One of the doubts is that since covid plenty of 50 plus people have stopped work and are actively having to be encouraged back as it has caused problems. I fear this may lead to the same or similar problems for all age groups. Then again it might be a roaring success"
I'm certainly no expert in it but the concept does interest me.
I watched that video posted earlier, they say you'd lose medical benefits too, it was based on America though so not sure how that sits with our NHS |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"In theory if we had this system, could everyone of working age and pensioners claim this at the same time with no one actually going to work? Or in a less severe example far less people opt to work while the rest opt not to and just use the benefit?
The studies show that very few people decide not to work.
This would replace all benefits and is a 'basic' income, not really enough to give up work.
Yes it is. As stated earlier I earn less that that.
With UC top ups?"
No |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"In theory if we had this system, could everyone of working age and pensioners claim this at the same time with no one actually going to work? Or in a less severe example far less people opt to work while the rest opt not to and just use the benefit?
The studies show that very few people decide not to work.
This would replace all benefits and is a 'basic' income, not really enough to give up work.
Yes it is. As stated earlier I earn less that that.
With UC top ups?
No"
UC would be no more under UBI. It replaces it. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"In theory if we had this system, could everyone of working age and pensioners claim this at the same time with no one actually going to work? Or in a less severe example far less people opt to work while the rest opt not to and just use the benefit?
The studies show that very few people decide not to work.
This would replace all benefits and is a 'basic' income, not really enough to give up work.
Yes it is. As stated earlier I earn less that that.
With UC top ups?
No
UC would be no more under UBI. It replaces it. "
Then I'd be better off. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"In theory if we had this system, could everyone of working age and pensioners claim this at the same time with no one actually going to work? Or in a less severe example far less people opt to work while the rest opt not to and just use the benefit?
The studies show that very few people decide not to work.
This would replace all benefits and is a 'basic' income, not really enough to give up work.
Yes it is. As stated earlier I earn less that that.
With UC top ups?
No
UC would be no more under UBI. It replaces it.
Then I'd be better off."
I'm a little confused. You said it was less than your wages and UC combined?
So with (say 1600/month) you'd still need to work. Or would that be enough for you to give up work? And if so, would you give up work? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"In theory if we had this system, could everyone of working age and pensioners claim this at the same time with no one actually going to work? Or in a less severe example far less people opt to work while the rest opt not to and just use the benefit?
The studies show that very few people decide not to work.
This would replace all benefits and is a 'basic' income, not really enough to give up work.
Yes it is. As stated earlier I earn less that that.
With UC top ups?
No
UC would be no more under UBI. It replaces it.
Then I'd be better off.
I'm a little confused. You said it was less than your wages and UC combined?
So with (say 1600/month) you'd still need to work. Or would that be enough for you to give up work? And if so, would you give up work?"
I stated I earn less than 1600 a month and that I don't get UC.
I wouldn't give up work but I'd work less hours giving my brain a rest (I have an acquired brain injury). |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"In theory if we had this system, could everyone of working age and pensioners claim this at the same time with no one actually going to work? Or in a less severe example far less people opt to work while the rest opt not to and just use the benefit?
The studies show that very few people decide not to work.
This would replace all benefits and is a 'basic' income, not really enough to give up work.
Yes it is. As stated earlier I earn less that that.
With UC top ups?
No
UC would be no more under UBI. It replaces it.
Then I'd be better off.
I'm a little confused. You said it was less than your wages and UC combined?
So with (say 1600/month) you'd still need to work. Or would that be enough for you to give up work? And if so, would you give up work?
I stated I earn less than 1600 a month and that I don't get UC.
I wouldn't give up work but I'd work less hours giving my brain a rest (I have an acquired brain injury)."
Apologies, when I asked if that was with UC topups, I got confused by your answer.
I'd assume with your I jury you get some form of pip? Maybe I have it all wrong. Less than 1600/month doesn't seem like enough to live on in my area. But then again, I'm not sure if that amount is for a single person.
|
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"In theory if we had this system, could everyone of working age and pensioners claim this at the same time with no one actually going to work? Or in a less severe example far less people opt to work while the rest opt not to and just use the benefit?
The studies show that very few people decide not to work.
This would replace all benefits and is a 'basic' income, not really enough to give up work.
Yes it is. As stated earlier I earn less that that.
With UC top ups?
No
UC would be no more under UBI. It replaces it.
Then I'd be better off.
I'm a little confused. You said it was less than your wages and UC combined?
So with (say 1600/month) you'd still need to work. Or would that be enough for you to give up work? And if so, would you give up work?
I stated I earn less than 1600 a month and that I don't get UC.
I wouldn't give up work but I'd work less hours giving my brain a rest (I have an acquired brain injury).
Apologies, when I asked if that was with UC topups, I got confused by your answer.
I'd assume with your I jury you get some form of pip? Maybe I have it all wrong. Less than 1600/month doesn't seem like enough to live on in my area. But then again, I'm not sure if that amount is for a single person.
"
No PIP |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"There was a study done a few years back
https://basicincome.org/news/2020/09/the-cost-of-a-full-basic-income-for-the-united-kingdom-would-be-67-billion-per-year-3-4-of-gdp/#:~:text=The%20cost%20of%20a%20full%20UBI%20for%20the%20United%20Kingdom,and%20%C2%A33%2C853%20for%20children.
Not looked at this yet but the URL says cost is £67bn a year so not sure who is correcf re the people saying £1tn?"
1,267,200,000,000
I used a calculator
I also took out the roughly 22,000,000 that are to young to work
|
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"There was a study done a few years back
https://basicincome.org/news/2020/09/the-cost-of-a-full-basic-income-for-the-united-kingdom-would-be-67-billion-per-year-3-4-of-gdp/#:~:text=The%20cost%20of%20a%20full%20UBI%20for%20the%20United%20Kingdom,and%20%C2%A33%2C853%20for%20children.
Not looked at this yet but the URL says cost is £67bn a year so not sure who is correcf re the people saying £1tn?
1,267,200,000,000
I used a calculator
I also took out the roughly 22,000,000 that are to young to work
"
You should check your calculator
67m minus 22m = 45m x 1600 x 12 = 864b |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *irldnCouple 45 weeks ago
Brighton |
"There was a study done a few years back
https://basicincome.org/news/2020/09/the-cost-of-a-full-basic-income-for-the-united-kingdom-would-be-67-billion-per-year-3-4-of-gdp/#:~:text=The%20cost%20of%20a%20full%20UBI%20for%20the%20United%20Kingdom,and%20%C2%A33%2C853%20for%20children.
Not looked at this yet but the URL says cost is £67bn a year so not sure who is correcf re the people saying £1tn?
1,267,200,000,000
I used a calculator
I also took out the roughly 22,000,000 that are to young to work
You should check your calculator
67m minus 22m = 45m x 1600 x 12 = 864b"
And that is gross cost not net cost. You have to then remove the cost of ALL benefits and ALL state pensions plus the administration costs of those as no longer required. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"There was a study done a few years back
https://basicincome.org/news/2020/09/the-cost-of-a-full-basic-income-for-the-united-kingdom-would-be-67-billion-per-year-3-4-of-gdp/#:~:text=The%20cost%20of%20a%20full%20UBI%20for%20the%20United%20Kingdom,and%20%C2%A33%2C853%20for%20children.
Not looked at this yet but the URL says cost is £67bn a year so not sure who is correcf re the people saying £1tn?
1,267,200,000,000
I used a calculator
I also took out the roughly 22,000,000 that are to young to work
You should check your calculator
67m minus 22m = 45m x 1600 x 12 = 864b
And that is gross cost not net cost. You have to then remove the cost of ALL benefits and ALL state pensions plus the administration costs of those as no longer required."
Yeah that's a gross cost based on 1600/month per person. Obviously I don't know the net figure. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *otMe66Man 45 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"https://youtube.com/watch?v=kl39KHS07Xc&feature=share8
Old video, but important basics for the concept behind UBI.
This channel do show slight bias I've always felt towards one argument or another, despite claiming impartiality (I don't think absolute impartiality is possible from humans) but the main reason I like their videos is they explain stuff in layman's and give you most if not all of the facts.
Missed this, I will take a look later "
Having watched the video it is pretty much what I thought it would be, a pipe dream of interlacing communist ideals with capitalist ideals. The video states the idea is not fully understood, so the outcome can't be either. At best it is trickle down economics in that those earning above average wages would be funding everyone else through excessive increase in taxes. However this would lead to mass migration of wealth and services to countries that decide not to implement UBI. Power, wealth, technology, health and overall standards of living would increase for those countries, whilst those that choose the UBI route would become a version of Cuba, with the possibility that ego maniacs staying behind would be holding all of the cards.
|
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
» Add a new message to this topic
