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Javier Milei

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By *ostindreams OP   Man 34 weeks ago

London

Has anyone been following the Argentinian elections? Javier Milei, the self proclaimed anarcho-capitalist won the election.

His election manifesto is based on right-libertarianism. He wants to get rid of most government institutions and collect tax only for police, military and justice system. He even wants to get rid of the Central bank and adapt USD currency.

The guy also has a cool hairstyle and if you have seen his videos, you know that he is amazing meme material. We have seen "real socialism" enough number of times and we know how it ends. Now we get to see real libertarianism in action. One positive for him is that the country's economy is already in a terrible state. So the bar is pretty low already.

How do you think this will turn out for Argentina? Will this economic model work?

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By *astandFeistyCouple 34 weeks ago

Bournemouth

I've seen bits and bobs of him being part of WEF. Apparently he's full of shit.

I haven't really looked into it tbh.

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By *ired_upMan 34 weeks ago

ashton

I can't believe libertarians exist after covid. It just destroyed their idea that we can all just do what we want.

This guy, if what you have said about taxes I true, will just see society crumble around him and will be turfed out.

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By *ostindreams OP   Man 34 weeks ago

London


"I can't believe libertarians exist after covid. It just destroyed their idea that we can all just do what we want.

This guy, if what you have said about taxes I true, will just see society crumble around him and will be turfed out. "

Not sure how libertarianism is debunked by Covid. Can you clarify?

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By *ired_upMan 34 weeks ago

ashton


"I can't believe libertarians exist after covid. It just destroyed their idea that we can all just do what we want.

This guy, if what you have said about taxes I true, will just see society crumble around him and will be turfed out.

Not sure how libertarianism is debunked by Covid. Can you clarify? "

Yes, the idea that everyone should be free to do whatever they want and not be constrained by the government or high taxes so that people can do their own thing and invest in themselves and buy their own health insurance or whatever if they wanted it was completely smashed.

Everyone had to stay at home (requiring public money to do so) we needed massive public investments in public health (NHS in the country and the free vaccine being given out everywhere else) which has resulted in us needing higher taxes to pay this off. Now people could say that if we spent money on preparedness this might have been cheaper, but you needed to spend public money or a significant proportion of the population would have died either from the virus or from the hospitals being overwhelmed with patients meaning other treatments cold not take place.

There was also large loans given out to businesses to keep going backed by the government. Children had to be bought laptops to take part in school. It was the biggest intervention in private life that showed the idea of lbertaranism of everyone for themselves was nonsense when a crisis comes along.

The Ayn Rand institute in the US took out covid loans FFS. That should have been the end of the idea there and then.

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By *ostindreams OP   Man 34 weeks ago

London


"I can't believe libertarians exist after covid. It just destroyed their idea that we can all just do what we want.

This guy, if what you have said about taxes I true, will just see society crumble around him and will be turfed out.

Not sure how libertarianism is debunked by Covid. Can you clarify?

Yes, the idea that everyone should be free to do whatever they want and not be constrained by the government or high taxes so that people can do their own thing and invest in themselves and buy their own health insurance or whatever if they wanted it was completely smashed.

Everyone had to stay at home (requiring public money to do so) we needed massive public investments in public health (NHS in the country and the free vaccine being given out everywhere else) which has resulted in us needing higher taxes to pay this off. Now people could say that if we spent money on preparedness this might have been cheaper, but you needed to spend public money or a significant proportion of the population would have died either from the virus or from the hospitals being overwhelmed with patients meaning other treatments cold not take place.

There was also large loans given out to businesses to keep going backed by the government. Children had to be bought laptops to take part in school. It was the biggest intervention in private life that showed the idea of lbertaranism of everyone for themselves was nonsense when a crisis comes along.

The Ayn Rand institute in the US took out covid loans FFS. That should have been the end of the idea there and then. "

This would be the libertarian argument:

- The whole country need not have gone into lockdown. If we look at per capita death rate, there isn't a big difference in places which had lockdowns enforced and places which didn't.

- A libertarian would say people who are at risk would stay in voluntarily more so because they are paying for healthcare themselves and they would not want to risk it

- Many European countries with public healthcare had higher overall death rate the US

- For school children, they would expect the schools to take care of providing laptops, them being private and wanting to compete with rest of schools.

- Not sure why taking a loan is a bad thing

Your arguments are based on assumptions about the society still following a social democracy model.

There are many flaws with libertarianism, the biggest one being assuming that all people will be clever enough to figure out what they need to do, which is hardly the case. At the same time, it's not completely smashed the way you say.

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By *wisted999Man 34 weeks ago

North Bucks

If I was an Argentine I would be wary about accepting helicopter rides from strangers.

I can see a lot more governments turning to the right. Look at what’s happened in Europe

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By *ostindreams OP   Man 34 weeks ago

London


"If I was an Argentine I would be wary about accepting helicopter rides from strangers.

I can see a lot more governments turning to the right. Look at what’s happened in Europe "

Javier Milei is right wing in economics, much different from the European right wing parties which are focused more on social issues

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan 34 weeks ago

golden fields


"If I was an Argentine I would be wary about accepting helicopter rides from strangers.

I can see a lot more governments turning to the right. Look at what’s happened in Europe

Javier Milei is right wing in economics, much different from the European right wing parties which are focused more on social issues "

He's pretty right wing on social issues. Abortion, foreigners, etc. and he said he thinks science is a conspiracy.

Tough times ahead for Argentina and Argentinians.

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By *astandFeistyCouple 34 weeks ago

Bournemouth

He is vowing to make public workers (he refers to them as gnocchi) actually work for their money

I can see why so many are scared of his appointment.

We may be seeing a revolt coming soon...

Melei yesterday, PVV tomorrow, Trump next year?

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By *astandFeistyCouple 34 weeks ago

Bournemouth


"If I was an Argentine I would be wary about accepting helicopter rides from strangers.

I can see a lot more governments turning to the right. Look at what’s happened in Europe

Javier Milei is right wing in economics, much different from the European right wing parties which are focused more on social issues

He's pretty right wing on social issues. Abortion, foreigners, etc. and he said he thinks science is a conspiracy.

Tough times ahead for Argentina and Argentinians. "

They've had enough and don't believe it can get any tougher. 40% live in poverty and inflation is about 150%.

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By *hagTonightMan 34 weeks ago

From the land of haribos.

[Removed by poster at 21/11/23 11:59:07]

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By *hagTonightMan 34 weeks ago

From the land of haribos.

Yes. I have been following it and he seems to be a bit crazy, he also waved with chainsaws too.

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By *ired_upMan 34 weeks ago

ashton


"I can't believe libertarians exist after covid. It just destroyed their idea that we can all just do what we want.

This guy, if what you have said about taxes I true, will just see society crumble around him and will be turfed out.

Not sure how libertarianism is debunked by Covid. Can you clarify?

Yes, the idea that everyone should be free to do whatever they want and not be constrained by the government or high taxes so that people can do their own thing and invest in themselves and buy their own health insurance or whatever if they wanted it was completely smashed.

Everyone had to stay at home (requiring public money to do so) we needed massive public investments in public health (NHS in the country and the free vaccine being given out everywhere else) which has resulted in us needing higher taxes to pay this off. Now people could say that if we spent money on preparedness this might have been cheaper, but you needed to spend public money or a significant proportion of the population would have died either from the virus or from the hospitals being overwhelmed with patients meaning other treatments cold not take place.

There was also large loans given out to businesses to keep going backed by the government. Children had to be bought laptops to take part in school. It was the biggest intervention in private life that showed the idea of lbertaranism of everyone for themselves was nonsense when a crisis comes along.

The Ayn Rand institute in the US took out covid loans FFS. That should have been the end of the idea there and then.

This would be the libertarian argument:

- The whole country need not have gone into lockdown. If we look at per capita death rate, there isn't a big difference in places which had lockdowns enforced and places which didn't.

- A libertarian would say people who are at risk would stay in voluntarily more so because they are paying for healthcare themselves and they would not want to risk it

- Many European countries with public healthcare had higher overall death rate the US

- For school children, they would expect the schools to take care of providing laptops, them being private and wanting to compete with rest of schools.

- Not sure why taking a loan is a bad thing

Your arguments are based on assumptions about the society still following a social democracy model.

There are many flaws with libertarianism, the biggest one being assuming that all people will be clever enough to figure out what they need to do, which is hardly the case. At the same time, it's not completely smashed the way you say."

Look up who the Ayn Rand institute is and then see why them taking a loan is a bad thing. They are literally the people who say we should have smaller government spending and then take a loan from the Government. That's the end of their argument. If they couldn't stay afloat during this crisis then that's the end of their ideas.

I'm not re-going over local lockdowns as we have seen from the covid enquiry every single MP was lobbying the government why their area shouldn't be placed in higher tiers an wasn't as bad s the other places and what happened when London went into local lockdown. Everyone who could get out did so. Leaving the unable to at more risk and spreading covid around the country.

Libertarianism only works where every area starts from 0 and everyone is equally able to engage and has exactly the same amount of brain power, access to opportunities, wags, and families.

For this to happen you have eliminated disabilities, child abuse, mental health difficulties, and all forms of discrimination.

It's like communism. It works in theory but as soon as there is some money on the table or it is looked at outside of a narrow bubble it falls apart with those advocating for it with their hands in the trough at the first opportunity.

That and slashing public services, increasing public debt and lowering taxes are immediately told to get stuffed by the famously socialist bond traders who understand it is utter madness and raised the interest rates to warn people never to try that nonsense again.

It's selfishness hidden behind a vaneer of

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By *ired_upMan 34 weeks ago

ashton

*Theroy

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By *ostindreams OP   Man 34 weeks ago

London


"If I was an Argentine I would be wary about accepting helicopter rides from strangers.

I can see a lot more governments turning to the right. Look at what’s happened in Europe

Javier Milei is right wing in economics, much different from the European right wing parties which are focused more on social issues

He's pretty right wing on social issues. Abortion, foreigners, etc. and he said he thinks science is a conspiracy.

Tough times ahead for Argentina and Argentinians. "

On immigration, he seems to say that foreign criminals should be deported. I couldn't find anything else staunchly anti immigration. His abortion views are pretty crazy. But he is for legalising marijuana.

I couldn't find any link about him saying science is conspiracy. Where did you find it?

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By *ostindreams OP   Man 34 weeks ago

London


"

Look up who the Ayn Rand institute is and then see why them taking a loan is a bad thing. They are literally the people who say we should have smaller government spending and then take a loan from the Government. That's the end of their argument. If they couldn't stay afloat during this crisis then that's the end of their ideas.

"

By that argument a communist owning personal property debunks communism right? They are looking for loan and probably found a good interest offer from the government.


"

I'm not re-going over local lockdowns as we have seen from the covid enquiry every single MP was lobbying the government why their area shouldn't be placed in higher tiers an wasn't as bad s the other places and what happened when London went into local lockdown. Everyone who could get out did so. Leaving the unable to at more risk and spreading covid around the country.

"

Countries like Japan and Sweden did not enforce lockdown. By your argument, they would have a higher death rate especially because Japan has a much higher ratio of old people. Yet their death rate was lower than most European countries which enforced lock down. Why?


"

Libertarianism only works where every area starts from 0 and everyone is equally able to engage and has exactly the same amount of brain power, access to opportunities, wags, and families.

For this to happen you have eliminated disabilities, child abuse, mental health difficulties, and all forms of discrimination.

"

This is a valid point and probably big weakness of libertarianism in the sense that people who get a terrible deal at birth will have a tough time.


"

That and slashing public services, increasing public debt and lowering taxes are immediately told to get stuffed by the famously socialist bond traders who understand it is utter madness and raised the interest rates to warn people never to try that nonsense again.

It's selfishness hidden behind a vaneer of "

I don't follow. How is increasing public debt related to libertarianism?

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By *ired_upMan 34 weeks ago

ashton


"

Look up who the Ayn Rand institute is and then see why them taking a loan is a bad thing. They are literally the people who say we should have smaller government spending and then take a loan from the Government. That's the end of their argument. If they couldn't stay afloat during this crisis then that's the end of their ideas.

By that argument a communist owning personal property debunks communism right? They are looking for loan and probably found a good interest offer from the government.

I'm not re-going over local lockdowns as we have seen from the covid enquiry every single MP was lobbying the government why their area shouldn't be placed in higher tiers an wasn't as bad s the other places and what happened when London went into local lockdown. Everyone who could get out did so. Leaving the unable to at more risk and spreading covid around the country.

Countries like Japan and Sweden did not enforce lockdown. By your argument, they would have a higher death rate especially because Japan has a much higher ratio of old people. Yet their death rate was lower than most European countries which enforced lock down. Why?

Libertarianism only works where every area starts from 0 and everyone is equally able to engage and has exactly the same amount of brain power, access to opportunities, wags, and families.

For this to happen you have eliminated disabilities, child abuse, mental health difficulties, and all forms of discrimination.

This is a valid point and probably big weakness of libertarianism in the sense that people who get a terrible deal at birth will have a tough time.

That and slashing public services, increasing public debt and lowering taxes are immediately told to get stuffed by the famously socialist bond traders who understand it is utter madness and raised the interest rates to warn people never to try that nonsense again.

It's selfishness hidden behind a vaneer of

I don't follow. How is increasing public debt related to libertarianism?"

Ayn Rand bit- no. They are specifically against government spending and that businesses should thrive, or not, without government support and rely on the market. As soon as the government offered low interest loans they jumped on it.

Re:sen and Japan Vs other counties in europe- Comparing apples and pears. Comparing sen and Norway is better. Norway implemented lockdowns and had a lower death rate than sen.

Re: debt It's not but the immediate consequence of implementing these policies would have pushed the debt to unsustainable levels, pension funds were about to go bust (requiring more government intervention) and they are fantasy economics..

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By *astandFeistyCouple 34 weeks ago

Bournemouth


"

Re:sen and Japan Vs other counties in europe- Comparing apples and pears. Comparing sen and Norway is better. Norway implemented lockdowns and had a lower death rate than sen.

"

Are you only choosing Norway to compare because they're both Nordic countries?

Those 2 countries are not even close to comparable when you look at population density.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan 34 weeks ago

golden fields


"If I was an Argentine I would be wary about accepting helicopter rides from strangers.

I can see a lot more governments turning to the right. Look at what’s happened in Europe

Javier Milei is right wing in economics, much different from the European right wing parties which are focused more on social issues

He's pretty right wing on social issues. Abortion, foreigners, etc. and he said he thinks science is a conspiracy.

Tough times ahead for Argentina and Argentinians.

On immigration, he seems to say that foreign criminals should be deported. I couldn't find anything else staunchly anti immigration. His abortion views are pretty crazy. But he is for legalising marijuana.

I couldn't find any link about him saying science is conspiracy. Where did you find it?"

On his wiki page. But I didn't look any further into it. He was specifically referring to climate science.

But anyone who doesn't even understand what science is, how to differentiate between belief Vs scientific knowledge, is basically unfit for public office in my opinion.

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By *ostindreams OP   Man 34 weeks ago

London


"

Re:sen and Japan Vs other counties in europe- Comparing apples and pears. Comparing sen and Norway is better. Norway implemented lockdowns and had a lower death rate than sen.

"

Why is it comparing apple and pears when it comes to a pandemic? End of the day you have a country that has done much better than other countries which imposed lockdowns while also having a much more vulnerable population. There seems much less correlation between implementing lockdowns and death rates, except the peaks and troughs. And we aren't even talking about side effects of lockdowns like mental health issues and economic meltdown.

I am telling all this as someone who vocally supported lockdowns during covid. In countries like Sweden and Japan, people figured out what works best for them and they seemed to be doing just fine.


"

Re: debt It's not but the immediate consequence of implementing these policies would have pushed the debt to unsustainable levels, pension funds were about to go bust (requiring more government intervention) and they are fantasy economics.."

What pension funds are you talking about? In a libertarian economy, the government doesn't own pension funds. The whole idea is to cut down all government spending so that they don't have to collect much taxes. So there is no public healthcare or government pensions.

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By *irldnCouple 34 weeks ago

Cornwall


"I can't believe libertarians exist after covid. It just destroyed their idea that we can all just do what we want.

This guy, if what you have said about taxes I true, will just see society crumble around him and will be turfed out.

Not sure how libertarianism is debunked by Covid. Can you clarify?

Yes, the idea that everyone should be free to do whatever they want and not be constrained by the government or high taxes so that people can do their own thing and invest in themselves and buy their own health insurance or whatever if they wanted it was completely smashed.

Everyone had to stay at home (requiring public money to do so) we needed massive public investments in public health (NHS in the country and the free vaccine being given out everywhere else) which has resulted in us needing higher taxes to pay this off. Now people could say that if we spent money on preparedness this might have been cheaper, but you needed to spend public money or a significant proportion of the population would have died either from the virus or from the hospitals being overwhelmed with patients meaning other treatments cold not take place.

There was also large loans given out to businesses to keep going backed by the government. Children had to be bought laptops to take part in school. It was the biggest intervention in private life that showed the idea of lbertaranism of everyone for themselves was nonsense when a crisis comes along.

The Ayn Rand institute in the US took out covid loans FFS. That should have been the end of the idea there and then.

This would be the libertarian argument:

- The whole country need not have gone into lockdown. If we look at per capita death rate, there isn't a big difference in places which had lockdowns enforced and places which didn't.

- A libertarian would say people who are at risk would stay in voluntarily more so because they are paying for healthcare themselves and they would not want to risk it

- Many European countries with public healthcare had higher overall death rate the US

- For school children, they would expect the schools to take care of providing laptops, them being private and wanting to compete with rest of schools.

- Not sure why taking a loan is a bad thing

Your arguments are based on assumptions about the society still following a social democracy model.

There are many flaws with libertarianism, the biggest one being assuming that all people will be clever enough to figure out what they need to do, which is hardly the case. At the same time, it's not completely smashed the way you say.

Look up who the Ayn Rand institute is and then see why them taking a loan is a bad thing. They are literally the people who say we should have smaller government spending and then take a loan from the Government. That's the end of their argument. If they couldn't stay afloat during this crisis then that's the end of their ideas.

I'm not re-going over local lockdowns as we have seen from the covid enquiry every single MP was lobbying the government why their area shouldn't be placed in higher tiers an wasn't as bad s the other places and what happened when London went into local lockdown. Everyone who could get out did so. Leaving the unable to at more risk and spreading covid around the country.

Libertarianism only works where every area starts from 0 and everyone is equally able to engage and has exactly the same amount of brain power, access to opportunities, wags, and families.

For this to happen you have eliminated disabilities, child abuse, mental health difficulties, and all forms of discrimination.

It's like communism. It works in theory but as soon as there is some money on the table or it is looked at outside of a narrow bubble it falls apart with those advocating for it with their hands in the trough at the first opportunity.

That and slashing public services, increasing public debt and lowering taxes are immediately told to get stuffed by the famously socialist bond traders who understand it is utter madness and raised the interest rates to warn people never to try that nonsense again.

It's selfishness hidden behind a vaneer of "

Good post

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By *irldnCouple 34 weeks ago

Cornwall


"I can't believe libertarians exist after covid. It just destroyed their idea that we can all just do what we want.

This guy, if what you have said about taxes I true, will just see society crumble around him and will be turfed out.

Not sure how libertarianism is debunked by Covid. Can you clarify?

Yes, the idea that everyone should be free to do whatever they want and not be constrained by the government or high taxes so that people can do their own thing and invest in themselves and buy their own health insurance or whatever if they wanted it was completely smashed.

Everyone had to stay at home (requiring public money to do so) we needed massive public investments in public health (NHS in the country and the free vaccine being given out everywhere else) which has resulted in us needing higher taxes to pay this off. Now people could say that if we spent money on preparedness this might have been cheaper, but you needed to spend public money or a significant proportion of the population would have died either from the virus or from the hospitals being overwhelmed with patients meaning other treatments cold not take place.

There was also large loans given out to businesses to keep going backed by the government. Children had to be bought laptops to take part in school. It was the biggest intervention in private life that showed the idea of lbertaranism of everyone for themselves was nonsense when a crisis comes along.

The Ayn Rand institute in the US took out covid loans FFS. That should have been the end of the idea there and then.

This would be the libertarian argument:

- The whole country need not have gone into lockdown. If we look at per capita death rate, there isn't a big difference in places which had lockdowns enforced and places which didn't.

- A libertarian would say people who are at risk would stay in voluntarily more so because they are paying for healthcare themselves and they would not want to risk it

- Many European countries with public healthcare had higher overall death rate the US

- For school children, they would expect the schools to take care of providing laptops, them being private and wanting to compete with rest of schools.

- Not sure why taking a loan is a bad thing

Your arguments are based on assumptions about the society still following a social democracy model.

There are many flaws with libertarianism, the biggest one being assuming that all people will be clever enough to figure out what they need to do, which is hardly the case. At the same time, it's not completely smashed the way you say."

Sounds closer to no society and a step away from anarchy.

Unless you earn a six figure or more salary, libertarianism will not really benefit you. I find it odd how people on modest or middle salaries/income buy into some of these ideas. Most would simply be fucked if we went full blown down the route some seem to advocate.

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By *ired_upMan 34 weeks ago

ashton


"

Re:sen and Japan Vs other counties in europe- Comparing apples and pears. Comparing sen and Norway is better. Norway implemented lockdowns and had a lower death rate than sen.

Why is it comparing apple and pears when it comes to a pandemic? End of the day you have a country that has done much better than other countries which imposed lockdowns while also having a much more vulnerable population. There seems much less correlation between implementing lockdowns and death rates, except the peaks and troughs. And we aren't even talking about side effects of lockdowns like mental health issues and economic meltdown.

I am telling all this as someone who vocally supported lockdowns during covid. In countries like Sweden and Japan, people figured out what works best for them and they seemed to be doing just fine.

Re: debt It's not but the immediate consequence of implementing these policies would have pushed the debt to unsustainable levels, pension funds were about to go bust (requiring more government intervention) and they are fantasy economics..

What pension funds are you talking about? In a libertarian economy, the government doesn't own pension funds. The whole idea is to cut down all government spending so that they don't have to collect much taxes. So there is no public healthcare or government pensions. "

It's apples and pears as you are not comparing like with like. You said originally sen did better than some European countries. Yeah and it did worse than others. So comparing it to its neighbour is a fairer test. Compared to Norway it did worse. It diddnt do fine at all. It got lucky early on then got hammered later.

I wasn't talking about pension funds owned by government, I was talking about all pension funds nearly went bust. Google 'liz truss pension crisis' for more info.

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By *ostindreams OP   Man 34 weeks ago

London


"I can't believe libertarians exist after covid. It just destroyed their idea that we can all just do what we want.

This guy, if what you have said about taxes I true, will just see society crumble around him and will be turfed out.

Not sure how libertarianism is debunked by Covid. Can you clarify?

Yes, the idea that everyone should be free to do whatever they want and not be constrained by the government or high taxes so that people can do their own thing and invest in themselves and buy their own health insurance or whatever if they wanted it was completely smashed.

Everyone had to stay at home (requiring public money to do so) we needed massive public investments in public health (NHS in the country and the free vaccine being given out everywhere else) which has resulted in us needing higher taxes to pay this off. Now people could say that if we spent money on preparedness this might have been cheaper, but you needed to spend public money or a significant proportion of the population would have died either from the virus or from the hospitals being overwhelmed with patients meaning other treatments cold not take place.

There was also large loans given out to businesses to keep going backed by the government. Children had to be bought laptops to take part in school. It was the biggest intervention in private life that showed the idea of lbertaranism of everyone for themselves was nonsense when a crisis comes along.

The Ayn Rand institute in the US took out covid loans FFS. That should have been the end of the idea there and then.

This would be the libertarian argument:

- The whole country need not have gone into lockdown. If we look at per capita death rate, there isn't a big difference in places which had lockdowns enforced and places which didn't.

- A libertarian would say people who are at risk would stay in voluntarily more so because they are paying for healthcare themselves and they would not want to risk it

- Many European countries with public healthcare had higher overall death rate the US

- For school children, they would expect the schools to take care of providing laptops, them being private and wanting to compete with rest of schools.

- Not sure why taking a loan is a bad thing

Your arguments are based on assumptions about the society still following a social democracy model.

There are many flaws with libertarianism, the biggest one being assuming that all people will be clever enough to figure out what they need to do, which is hardly the case. At the same time, it's not completely smashed the way you say.

Sounds closer to no society and a step away from anarchy.

Unless you earn a six figure or more salary, libertarianism will not really benefit you. I find it odd how people on modest or middle salaries/income buy into some of these ideas. Most would simply be fucked if we went full blown down the route some seem to advocate. "

It's closer to anarchy, yes. In fact, anarchy is the ultimate form of libertarianism. But it doesn't mean it is close to no society. And most libertarians agree that it's impossible to get rid of a government completely. So their goals are restricted to just reduce the reach of the government to just enforce law and order.

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By *ostindreams OP   Man 34 weeks ago

London


"

Re:sen and Japan Vs other counties in europe- Comparing apples and pears. Comparing sen and Norway is better. Norway implemented lockdowns and had a lower death rate than sen.

Why is it comparing apple and pears when it comes to a pandemic? End of the day you have a country that has done much better than other countries which imposed lockdowns while also having a much more vulnerable population. There seems much less correlation between implementing lockdowns and death rates, except the peaks and troughs. And we aren't even talking about side effects of lockdowns like mental health issues and economic meltdown.

I am telling all this as someone who vocally supported lockdowns during covid. In countries like Sweden and Japan, people figured out what works best for them and they seemed to be doing just fine.

Re: debt It's not but the immediate consequence of implementing these policies would have pushed the debt to unsustainable levels, pension funds were about to go bust (requiring more government intervention) and they are fantasy economics..

What pension funds are you talking about? In a libertarian economy, the government doesn't own pension funds. The whole idea is to cut down all government spending so that they don't have to collect much taxes. So there is no public healthcare or government pensions.

It's apples and pears as you are not comparing like with like. You said originally sen did better than some European countries. Yeah and it did worse than others. So comparing it to its neighbour is a fairer test. Compared to Norway it did worse. It diddnt do fine at all. It got lucky early on then got hammered later.

I wasn't talking about pension funds owned by government, I was talking about all pension funds nearly went bust. Google 'liz truss pension crisis' for more info.

"

What does being neighbours have anything to do with how many people are affected by a pandemic? Geographical location should have no impact on death rate. Wealth of the country, age demographics can affect the death rate though.

Again, you are taking a social democracy in which most pension funds are dependent on the value of the currency, taking the market response to that and using that to judge a libertarian economy. You wouldn't have pension funds making such investments in the first place in a libertarian economy.

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By *ired_upMan 34 weeks ago

ashton


"

Re:sen and Japan Vs other counties in europe- Comparing apples and pears. Comparing sen and Norway is better. Norway implemented lockdowns and had a lower death rate than sen.

Why is it comparing apple and pears when it comes to a pandemic? End of the day you have a country that has done much better than other countries which imposed lockdowns while also having a much more vulnerable population. There seems much less correlation between implementing lockdowns and death rates, except the peaks and troughs. And we aren't even talking about side effects of lockdowns like mental health issues and economic meltdown.

I am telling all this as someone who vocally supported lockdowns during covid. In countries like Sweden and Japan, people figured out what works best for them and they seemed to be doing just fine.

Re: debt It's not but the immediate consequence of implementing these policies would have pushed the debt to unsustainable levels, pension funds were about to go bust (requiring more government intervention) and they are fantasy economics..

What pension funds are you talking about? In a libertarian economy, the government doesn't own pension funds. The whole idea is to cut down all government spending so that they don't have to collect much taxes. So there is no public healthcare or government pensions.

It's apples and pears as you are not comparing like with like. You said originally sen did better than some European countries. Yeah and it did worse than others. So comparing it to its neighbour is a fairer test. Compared to Norway it did worse. It diddnt do fine at all. It got lucky early on then got hammered later.

I wasn't talking about pension funds owned by government, I was talking about all pension funds nearly went bust. Google 'liz truss pension crisis' for more info.

What does being neighbours have anything to do with how many people are affected by a pandemic? Geographical location should have no impact on death rate. Wealth of the country, age demographics can affect the death rate though.

Again, you are taking a social democracy in which most pension funds are dependent on the value of the currency, taking the market response to that and using that to judge a libertarian economy. You wouldn't have pension funds making such investments in the first place in a libertarian economy."

As sen and Norway are both rich counties with populations that are concentrated in small areas with large areas of space in between. It's exactly why we should look at the difference between them. They are statistical neighbours as well as physically next to each other.

The pension situation was not due to currency.

'Concerns about the country’s fiscal outlook led to a sharp rise in UK sovereign bond yields that, in turn, led to large losses in defined-benefit pension fund investments that borrowed against such collateral, causing margin and collateral calls. To meet these calls, pension funds were forced to sell government bonds, pushing their yields even higher.”

That's from the Communists at the IMF.

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By *ostindreams OP   Man 34 weeks ago

London


"

Re:sen and Japan Vs other counties in europe- Comparing apples and pears. Comparing sen and Norway is better. Norway implemented lockdowns and had a lower death rate than sen.

Why is it comparing apple and pears when it comes to a pandemic? End of the day you have a country that has done much better than other countries which imposed lockdowns while also having a much more vulnerable population. There seems much less correlation between implementing lockdowns and death rates, except the peaks and troughs. And we aren't even talking about side effects of lockdowns like mental health issues and economic meltdown.

I am telling all this as someone who vocally supported lockdowns during covid. In countries like Sweden and Japan, people figured out what works best for them and they seemed to be doing just fine.

Re: debt It's not but the immediate consequence of implementing these policies would have pushed the debt to unsustainable levels, pension funds were about to go bust (requiring more government intervention) and they are fantasy economics..

What pension funds are you talking about? In a libertarian economy, the government doesn't own pension funds. The whole idea is to cut down all government spending so that they don't have to collect much taxes. So there is no public healthcare or government pensions.

It's apples and pears as you are not comparing like with like. You said originally sen did better than some European countries. Yeah and it did worse than others. So comparing it to its neighbour is a fairer test. Compared to Norway it did worse. It diddnt do fine at all. It got lucky early on then got hammered later.

I wasn't talking about pension funds owned by government, I was talking about all pension funds nearly went bust. Google 'liz truss pension crisis' for more info.

What does being neighbours have anything to do with how many people are affected by a pandemic? Geographical location should have no impact on death rate. Wealth of the country, age demographics can affect the death rate though.

Again, you are taking a social democracy in which most pension funds are dependent on the value of the currency, taking the market response to that and using that to judge a libertarian economy. You wouldn't have pension funds making such investments in the first place in a libertarian economy.

As sen and Norway are both rich counties with populations that are concentrated in small areas with large areas of space in between. It's exactly why we should look at the difference between them. They are statistical neighbours as well as physically next to each other.

The pension situation was not due to currency.

'Concerns about the country’s fiscal outlook led to a sharp rise in UK sovereign bond yields that, in turn, led to large losses in defined-benefit pension fund investments that borrowed against such collateral, causing margin and collateral calls. To meet these calls, pension funds were forced to sell government bonds, pushing their yields even higher.”

That's from the Communists at the IMF."

And Japan is a poor country? Also, there are some US states which didn't impose lockdowns. Their death rate isn't higher than the rest. In fact, some states like Wisconsin were in the lower half of the table of death rates. And here is a study on impact of lockdown:

https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature-Review-and-Meta-Analysis-of-the-Effects-of-Lockdowns-on-COVID-19-Mortality.pdf

Apparently lockdowns overall only reduced death by 0.2% Now compare that to the long term effects of lockdown.

I don't know why you are repeatedly comparing a social democracy's changes to a hypothetical libertarian economy. The market crashed after Liz Truss's policy because she reduced taxes without announcing any cuts on government spending. In fact, she was going to increase spending to compensate for the energy bills. This is what spooked the markets. A libertarian economy wouldn't have that much spending to begin with.

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By (user no longer on site) 34 weeks ago


"Has anyone been following the Argentinian elections? Javier Milei, the self proclaimed anarcho-capitalist won the election.

His election manifesto is based on right-libertarianism. He wants to get rid of most government institutions and collect tax only for police, military and justice system. He even wants to get rid of the Central bank and adapt USD currency.

The guy also has a cool hairstyle and if you have seen his videos, you know that he is amazing meme material. We have seen "real socialism" enough number of times and we know how it ends. Now we get to see real libertarianism in action. One positive for him is that the country's economy is already in a terrible state. So the bar is pretty low already.

How do you think this will turn out for Argentina? Will this economic model work?"

I'm going to Argentina in January actually.

He seems like a bad choice to me but it was a case of the frying pan or the fire really.

They probably need to follow the lead of Ecuador and Venezuela and dollarise the economy.

I was in Argentina over 20 years ago and it was the same story with the economy in the toilet so I can see why they voted for him. Let's hope he actually focused on the real issues and doesn't do like Bolsonaro and just blame everything on minorities and those on the left.

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By *ostindreams OP   Man 34 weeks ago

London


"Has anyone been following the Argentinian elections? Javier Milei, the self proclaimed anarcho-capitalist won the election.

His election manifesto is based on right-libertarianism. He wants to get rid of most government institutions and collect tax only for police, military and justice system. He even wants to get rid of the Central bank and adapt USD currency.

The guy also has a cool hairstyle and if you have seen his videos, you know that he is amazing meme material. We have seen "real socialism" enough number of times and we know how it ends. Now we get to see real libertarianism in action. One positive for him is that the country's economy is already in a terrible state. So the bar is pretty low already.

How do you think this will turn out for Argentina? Will this economic model work?

I'm going to Argentina in January actually.

He seems like a bad choice to me but it was a case of the frying pan or the fire really.

They probably need to follow the lead of Ecuador and Venezuela and dollarise the economy.

I was in Argentina over 20 years ago and it was the same story with the economy in the toilet so I can see why they voted for him. Let's hope he actually focused on the real issues and doesn't do like Bolsonaro and just blame everything on minorities and those on the left."

That's what I heard from an Argentinian I know. The guy is crazy and a bit extreme. But the economic situation there is so fucked up that he is the best option they have to pull it back on track.

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By *irldnCouple 34 weeks ago

Cornwall


"I can't believe libertarians exist after covid. It just destroyed their idea that we can all just do what we want.

This guy, if what you have said about taxes I true, will just see society crumble around him and will be turfed out.

Not sure how libertarianism is debunked by Covid. Can you clarify?

Yes, the idea that everyone should be free to do whatever they want and not be constrained by the government or high taxes so that people can do their own thing and invest in themselves and buy their own health insurance or whatever if they wanted it was completely smashed.

Everyone had to stay at home (requiring public money to do so) we needed massive public investments in public health (NHS in the country and the free vaccine being given out everywhere else) which has resulted in us needing higher taxes to pay this off. Now people could say that if we spent money on preparedness this might have been cheaper, but you needed to spend public money or a significant proportion of the population would have died either from the virus or from the hospitals being overwhelmed with patients meaning other treatments cold not take place.

There was also large loans given out to businesses to keep going backed by the government. Children had to be bought laptops to take part in school. It was the biggest intervention in private life that showed the idea of lbertaranism of everyone for themselves was nonsense when a crisis comes along.

The Ayn Rand institute in the US took out covid loans FFS. That should have been the end of the idea there and then.

This would be the libertarian argument:

- The whole country need not have gone into lockdown. If we look at per capita death rate, there isn't a big difference in places which had lockdowns enforced and places which didn't.

- A libertarian would say people who are at risk would stay in voluntarily more so because they are paying for healthcare themselves and they would not want to risk it

- Many European countries with public healthcare had higher overall death rate the US

- For school children, they would expect the schools to take care of providing laptops, them being private and wanting to compete with rest of schools.

- Not sure why taking a loan is a bad thing

Your arguments are based on assumptions about the society still following a social democracy model.

There are many flaws with libertarianism, the biggest one being assuming that all people will be clever enough to figure out what they need to do, which is hardly the case. At the same time, it's not completely smashed the way you say.

Sounds closer to no society and a step away from anarchy.

Unless you earn a six figure or more salary, libertarianism will not really benefit you. I find it odd how people on modest or middle salaries/income buy into some of these ideas. Most would simply be fucked if we went full blown down the route some seem to advocate.

It's closer to anarchy, yes. In fact, anarchy is the ultimate form of libertarianism. But it doesn't mean it is close to no society. And most libertarians agree that it's impossible to get rid of a government completely. So their goals are restricted to just reduce the reach of the government to just enforce law and order."

I do not see why the wealthier in society cannot help the less well off. I came from very little but was fortunate to be relatively clever with a good work ethic. I am pretty successful. None of my school friends or family have done so well but they are no less deserving. So I do not resent my taxes giving support through the funding of public services.

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By *ostindreams OP   Man 34 weeks ago

London


"I can't believe libertarians exist after covid. It just destroyed their idea that we can all just do what we want.

This guy, if what you have said about taxes I true, will just see society crumble around him and will be turfed out.

Not sure how libertarianism is debunked by Covid. Can you clarify?

Yes, the idea that everyone should be free to do whatever they want and not be constrained by the government or high taxes so that people can do their own thing and invest in themselves and buy their own health insurance or whatever if they wanted it was completely smashed.

Everyone had to stay at home (requiring public money to do so) we needed massive public investments in public health (NHS in the country and the free vaccine being given out everywhere else) which has resulted in us needing higher taxes to pay this off. Now people could say that if we spent money on preparedness this might have been cheaper, but you needed to spend public money or a significant proportion of the population would have died either from the virus or from the hospitals being overwhelmed with patients meaning other treatments cold not take place.

There was also large loans given out to businesses to keep going backed by the government. Children had to be bought laptops to take part in school. It was the biggest intervention in private life that showed the idea of lbertaranism of everyone for themselves was nonsense when a crisis comes along.

The Ayn Rand institute in the US took out covid loans FFS. That should have been the end of the idea there and then.

This would be the libertarian argument:

- The whole country need not have gone into lockdown. If we look at per capita death rate, there isn't a big difference in places which had lockdowns enforced and places which didn't.

- A libertarian would say people who are at risk would stay in voluntarily more so because they are paying for healthcare themselves and they would not want to risk it

- Many European countries with public healthcare had higher overall death rate the US

- For school children, they would expect the schools to take care of providing laptops, them being private and wanting to compete with rest of schools.

- Not sure why taking a loan is a bad thing

Your arguments are based on assumptions about the society still following a social democracy model.

There are many flaws with libertarianism, the biggest one being assuming that all people will be clever enough to figure out what they need to do, which is hardly the case. At the same time, it's not completely smashed the way you say.

Sounds closer to no society and a step away from anarchy.

Unless you earn a six figure or more salary, libertarianism will not really benefit you. I find it odd how people on modest or middle salaries/income buy into some of these ideas. Most would simply be fucked if we went full blown down the route some seem to advocate.

It's closer to anarchy, yes. In fact, anarchy is the ultimate form of libertarianism. But it doesn't mean it is close to no society. And most libertarians agree that it's impossible to get rid of a government completely. So their goals are restricted to just reduce the reach of the government to just enforce law and order.

I do not see why the wealthier in society cannot help the less well off. I came from very little but was fortunate to be relatively clever with a good work ethic. I am pretty successful. None of my school friends or family have done so well but they are no less deserving. So I do not resent my taxes giving support through the funding of public services."

This is where things get murky between idealism and reality for libertarianism. Their argument is that public services are not efficient. They are filled with bureaucracy and corruption. The well off can help the poor without a government intervention. Another argument is that people need to be able to donate for causes which they care about and not for causes which the government cares about for the sake of votes.

Their complaints about the government are correct. But in reality, the individuals are definitely not going to spend their money for the upliftment of people around them. Pretty much same as how communists believe that people would happily work without the incentive of private property and care for the society over self.

Now there is another class of libertarians who would say "Why the fuck should I care about what happens to the rest?" That's a whole different moral debate I don't want to get into

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By *ik MMan 34 weeks ago

Lancashire


"Has anyone been following the Argentinian elections? Javier Milei, the self proclaimed anarcho-capitalist won the election.

His election manifesto is based on right-libertarianism. He wants to get rid of most government institutions and collect tax only for police, military and justice system. He even wants to get rid of the Central bank and adapt USD currency.

The guy also has a cool hairstyle and if you have seen his videos, you know that he is amazing meme material. We have seen "real socialism" enough number of times and we know how it ends. Now we get to see real libertarianism in action. One positive for him is that the country's economy is already in a terrible state. So the bar is pretty low already.

How do you think this will turn out for Argentina? Will this economic model work?

I'm going to Argentina in January actually.

He seems like a bad choice to me but it was a case of the frying pan or the fire really.

They probably need to follow the lead of Ecuador and Venezuela and dollarise the economy.

I was in Argentina over 20 years ago and it was the same story with the economy in the toilet so I can see why they voted for him. Let's hope he actually focused on the real issues and doesn't do like Bolsonaro and just blame everything on minorities and those on the left.

That's what I heard from an Argentinian I know. The guy is crazy and a bit extreme. But the economic situation there is so fucked up that he is the best option they have to pull it back on track."

When I was there in March there were something like 18 different exchange rates and inflation was running wild. US Dollars could be exchanged for more than double the ATM rate. As a tourist it made things ridiculously cheap, for the people I knew and met it made their life hell. It makes perfect sense for them to adopt the Dollar, as that’s all any individual or business wants anyway.

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By *ools and the brainCouple 34 weeks ago

couple, us we him her.

He sounds as bad as the Brazilian nutcase

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By *ostindreams OP   Man 34 weeks ago

London


"Has anyone been following the Argentinian elections? Javier Milei, the self proclaimed anarcho-capitalist won the election.

His election manifesto is based on right-libertarianism. He wants to get rid of most government institutions and collect tax only for police, military and justice system. He even wants to get rid of the Central bank and adapt USD currency.

The guy also has a cool hairstyle and if you have seen his videos, you know that he is amazing meme material. We have seen "real socialism" enough number of times and we know how it ends. Now we get to see real libertarianism in action. One positive for him is that the country's economy is already in a terrible state. So the bar is pretty low already.

How do you think this will turn out for Argentina? Will this economic model work?

I'm going to Argentina in January actually.

He seems like a bad choice to me but it was a case of the frying pan or the fire really.

They probably need to follow the lead of Ecuador and Venezuela and dollarise the economy.

I was in Argentina over 20 years ago and it was the same story with the economy in the toilet so I can see why they voted for him. Let's hope he actually focused on the real issues and doesn't do like Bolsonaro and just blame everything on minorities and those on the left.

That's what I heard from an Argentinian I know. The guy is crazy and a bit extreme. But the economic situation there is so fucked up that he is the best option they have to pull it back on track.

When I was there in March there were something like 18 different exchange rates and inflation was running wild. US Dollars could be exchanged for more than double the ATM rate. As a tourist it made things ridiculously cheap, for the people I knew and met it made their life hell. It makes perfect sense for them to adopt the Dollar, as that’s all any individual or business wants anyway. "

Yeah apparently inflation went over 140%

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By (user no longer on site) 34 weeks ago


"Has anyone been following the Argentinian elections? Javier Milei, the self proclaimed anarcho-capitalist won the election.

His election manifesto is based on right-libertarianism. He wants to get rid of most government institutions and collect tax only for police, military and justice system. He even wants to get rid of the Central bank and adapt USD currency.

The guy also has a cool hairstyle and if you have seen his videos, you know that he is amazing meme material. We have seen "real socialism" enough number of times and we know how it ends. Now we get to see real libertarianism in action. One positive for him is that the country's economy is already in a terrible state. So the bar is pretty low already.

How do you think this will turn out for Argentina? Will this economic model work?

I'm going to Argentina in January actually.

He seems like a bad choice to me but it was a case of the frying pan or the fire really.

They probably need to follow the lead of Ecuador and Venezuela and dollarise the economy.

I was in Argentina over 20 years ago and it was the same story with the economy in the toilet so I can see why they voted for him. Let's hope he actually focused on the real issues and doesn't do like Bolsonaro and just blame everything on minorities and those on the left.

That's what I heard from an Argentinian I know. The guy is crazy and a bit extreme. But the economic situation there is so fucked up that he is the best option they have to pull it back on track.

When I was there in March there were something like 18 different exchange rates and inflation was running wild. US Dollars could be exchanged for more than double the ATM rate. As a tourist it made things ridiculously cheap, for the people I knew and met it made their life hell. It makes perfect sense for them to adopt the Dollar, as that’s all any individual or business wants anyway. "

What currency were you using there?

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By *ik MMan 34 weeks ago

Lancashire


"Has anyone been following the Argentinian elections? Javier Milei, the self proclaimed anarcho-capitalist won the election.

His election manifesto is based on right-libertarianism. He wants to get rid of most government institutions and collect tax only for police, military and justice system. He even wants to get rid of the Central bank and adapt USD currency.

The guy also has a cool hairstyle and if you have seen his videos, you know that he is amazing meme material. We have seen "real socialism" enough number of times and we know how it ends. Now we get to see real libertarianism in action. One positive for him is that the country's economy is already in a terrible state. So the bar is pretty low already.

How do you think this will turn out for Argentina? Will this economic model work?

I'm going to Argentina in January actually.

He seems like a bad choice to me but it was a case of the frying pan or the fire really.

They probably need to follow the lead of Ecuador and Venezuela and dollarise the economy.

I was in Argentina over 20 years ago and it was the same story with the economy in the toilet so I can see why they voted for him. Let's hope he actually focused on the real issues and doesn't do like Bolsonaro and just blame everything on minorities and those on the left.

That's what I heard from an Argentinian I know. The guy is crazy and a bit extreme. But the economic situation there is so fucked up that he is the best option they have to pull it back on track.

When I was there in March there were something like 18 different exchange rates and inflation was running wild. US Dollars could be exchanged for more than double the ATM rate. As a tourist it made things ridiculously cheap, for the people I knew and met it made their life hell. It makes perfect sense for them to adopt the Dollar, as that’s all any individual or business wants anyway.

What currency were you using there?"

I was tipped off beforehand and took US Dollars - when you change them you need to ask for the Blue Dollar rate. It felt dodgy but they do it in normal Cambio shops. You’ll need a money belt because 1000 Peso is their biggest note (was about £3) when I was there. Don’t think about using a credit card or ATM. When it came to hotels I booked online as usual but upon arrival the host cancelled my booking then wanted cash. Hope this helps…

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By *exyusMan 34 weeks ago

halifax

South America - No need to say anything else

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan 34 weeks ago

Gilfach


"I do not see why the wealthier in society cannot help the less well off."

They can if they want to. Nothing's stopping them.

What's slightly different is when the wealthier in society are forced to help the less well off. That's rather a different proposition.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan 34 weeks ago

golden fields


"I do not see why the wealthier in society cannot help the less well off.

They can if they want to. Nothing's stopping them.

What's slightly different is when the wealthier in society are forced to help the less well off. That's rather a different proposition."

By paying more taxes?

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan 34 weeks ago

golden fields


"He sounds as bad as the Brazilian nutcase "

He's even worse.

"He described the Article 14 of the Argentine Constitution, which guarantees labor rights, pensions, and the entire social security system, as the country's cancer; he pledged to repeal it as president."

Absolutely terrifying times for less well off Argentinians.

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By *abioMan 34 weeks ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

Remember this is the country that managed to get a warship repossessed whilst in a foreign harbour for being so much in debt… my favourite story!!

Anyway I think the IMF are now helping them in the right direction

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan 34 weeks ago

Gilfach


"I do not see why the wealthier in society cannot help the less well off."


"They can if they want to. Nothing's stopping them.

What's slightly different is when the wealthier in society are forced to help the less well off. That's rather a different proposition."


"By paying more taxes?"

Well, no, because a tax is an involuntary charge, so you can't voluntarily pay it. But the government does have a method of paying money to them if you wish to - https://www.dmo.gov.uk/responsibilities/public-sector-funds-crnd/miscellaneous-accounts/donations-and-bequests-account/. The bank account was 200 years old this year.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan 34 weeks ago

golden fields


"I do not see why the wealthier in society cannot help the less well off.

They can if they want to. Nothing's stopping them.

What's slightly different is when the wealthier in society are forced to help the less well off. That's rather a different proposition.

By paying more taxes?

Well, no, because a tax is an involuntary charge, so you can't voluntarily pay it. But the government does have a method of paying money to them if you wish to - https://www.dmo.gov.uk/responsibilities/public-sector-funds-crnd/miscellaneous-accounts/donations-and-bequests-account/. The bank account was 200 years old this year."

Sorry, I meant, "when the wealthier in society are forced to help the less well off."

By paying more taxes?

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By (user no longer on site) 34 weeks ago


"Has anyone been following the Argentinian elections? Javier Milei, the self proclaimed anarcho-capitalist won the election.

His election manifesto is based on right-libertarianism. He wants to get rid of most government institutions and collect tax only for police, military and justice system. He even wants to get rid of the Central bank and adapt USD currency.

The guy also has a cool hairstyle and if you have seen his videos, you know that he is amazing meme material. We have seen "real socialism" enough number of times and we know how it ends. Now we get to see real libertarianism in action. One positive for him is that the country's economy is already in a terrible state. So the bar is pretty low already.

How do you think this will turn out for Argentina? Will this economic model work?

I'm going to Argentina in January actually.

He seems like a bad choice to me but it was a case of the frying pan or the fire really.

They probably need to follow the lead of Ecuador and Venezuela and dollarise the economy.

I was in Argentina over 20 years ago and it was the same story with the economy in the toilet so I can see why they voted for him. Let's hope he actually focused on the real issues and doesn't do like Bolsonaro and just blame everything on minorities and those on the left.

That's what I heard from an Argentinian I know. The guy is crazy and a bit extreme. But the economic situation there is so fucked up that he is the best option they have to pull it back on track.

When I was there in March there were something like 18 different exchange rates and inflation was running wild. US Dollars could be exchanged for more than double the ATM rate. As a tourist it made things ridiculously cheap, for the people I knew and met it made their life hell. It makes perfect sense for them to adopt the Dollar, as that’s all any individual or business wants anyway.

What currency were you using there?

I was tipped off beforehand and took US Dollars - when you change them you need to ask for the Blue Dollar rate. It felt dodgy but they do it in normal Cambio shops. You’ll need a money belt because 1000 Peso is their biggest note (was about £3) when I was there. Don’t think about using a credit card or ATM. When it came to hotels I booked online as usual but upon arrival the host cancelled my booking then wanted cash. Hope this helps… "

Gracias! Glad I'm finding out now and not a few days before my trip at least!

I managed to navigate demonitisation in India a few years ago. Now that was some shit show!!

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By *irldnCouple 34 weeks ago

Cornwall


"I do not see why the wealthier in society cannot help the less well off.

They can if they want to. Nothing's stopping them.

What's slightly different is when the wealthier in society are forced to help the less well off. That's rather a different proposition."

Human nature for many wealthy people will be “fuck ‘em” and then something about “we all have the same chances” which is patently untrue. Due to human nature I think a civilised society should require that taxes are collected to fund services that are naturally used more by the poorer in society. However, the wealthy still benefit due to having a happier more equitable society with healthier better educated workforce and reduced crime to enable them to have an environment conducive to growing their wealth.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan 34 weeks ago

Gilfach


"Sorry, I meant, "when the wealthier in society are forced to help the less well off."

By paying more taxes?"

Birldn didn't state it outright, but I believe he meant that taxes should be increased to cover spending on less well-off people. That would be forcing wealthy people to pay. No one likes to be forced to do anything.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan 34 weeks ago

golden fields


"Sorry, I meant, "when the wealthier in society are forced to help the less well off."

By paying more taxes?

Birldn didn't state it outright, but I believe he meant that taxes should be increased to cover spending on less well-off people. That would be forcing wealthy people to pay. No one likes to be forced to do anything."

It makes sense for a fairer and more functional society for richer people to pay more taxes

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan 34 weeks ago

Gilfach


"Sorry, I meant, "when the wealthier in society are forced to help the less well off."

By paying more taxes?"


"Birldn didn't state it outright, but I believe he meant that taxes should be increased to cover spending on less well-off people. That would be forcing wealthy people to pay. No one likes to be forced to do anything."


"It makes sense for a fairer and more functional society for richer people to pay more taxes"

It might do, but people tend to push back when they're forced to do something, even if it's the right thing. Imagine banning tobacco and forcing all those smokers to give up. They will all agree that it's healthier to stop, but none of them will thank you for forcing them to do so.

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan 34 weeks ago

golden fields


"Sorry, I meant, "when the wealthier in society are forced to help the less well off."

By paying more taxes?

Birldn didn't state it outright, but I believe he meant that taxes should be increased to cover spending on less well-off people. That would be forcing wealthy people to pay. No one likes to be forced to do anything.

It makes sense for a fairer and more functional society for richer people to pay more taxes

It might do, but people tend to push back when they're forced to do something, even if it's the right thing. Imagine banning tobacco and forcing all those smokers to give up. They will all agree that it's healthier to stop, but none of them will thank you for forcing them to do so. "

Paying more taxes is good for all society though (assuming the government doesn't spunk it all away on pointless bullshit). Otherwise yes.

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By *rDiscretionXXXMan 34 weeks ago

Gilfach


"Paying more taxes is good for all society though (assuming the government doesn't spunk it all away on pointless bullshit)."

That seems a pretty big assumption.

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By *irldnCouple 34 weeks ago

Cornwall


"Sorry, I meant, "when the wealthier in society are forced to help the less well off."

By paying more taxes?

Birldn didn't state it outright, but I believe he meant that taxes should be increased to cover spending on less well-off people. That would be forcing wealthy people to pay. No one likes to be forced to do anything."

Not my meaning actually. I believe there is a balance to be struck and would not want to see the headline rate of taxes increased. But I would want to see loopholes closed and aggressive avoidance stopped (and evasion eradicated).

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By *wisted999Man 34 weeks ago

North Bucks

And now look to Holland……..

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By *orleymanMan 34 weeks ago

Leeds


"Has anyone been following the Argentinian elections? Javier Milei, the self proclaimed anarcho-capitalist won the election.

His election manifesto is based on right-libertarianism. He wants to get rid of most government institutions and collect tax only for police, military and justice system. He even wants to get rid of the Central bank and adapt USD currency.

The guy also has a cool hairstyle and if you have seen his videos, you know that he is amazing meme material. We have seen "real socialism" enough number of times and we know how it ends. Now we get to see real libertarianism in action. One positive for him is that the country's economy is already in a terrible state. So the bar is pretty low already.

How do you think this will turn out for Argentina? Will this economic model work?"

Adopting the US dollar may save Argentina.

It does seem quirky they'd call a " far right libertarian"

It's an oxymoron for me.

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By *ostindreams OP   Man 34 weeks ago

London


"Has anyone been following the Argentinian elections? Javier Milei, the self proclaimed anarcho-capitalist won the election.

His election manifesto is based on right-libertarianism. He wants to get rid of most government institutions and collect tax only for police, military and justice system. He even wants to get rid of the Central bank and adapt USD currency.

The guy also has a cool hairstyle and if you have seen his videos, you know that he is amazing meme material. We have seen "real socialism" enough number of times and we know how it ends. Now we get to see real libertarianism in action. One positive for him is that the country's economy is already in a terrible state. So the bar is pretty low already.

How do you think this will turn out for Argentina? Will this economic model work?

Adopting the US dollar may save Argentina.

It does seem quirky they'd call a " far right libertarian"

It's an oxymoron for me."

Yeah the term far-right has lost all the meaning for the media. They are throwing it at random people these days.

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By *ostindreams OP   Man 16 weeks ago

London

100 days of Milei. Things he has done so far:

- Cut the cabinet in half to just 9 ministries

- Slashed 50,000 public jobs. 70,000 more government contracts expiring this month won't be renewed

- Removed fuel and transport subsidies

- Shut down the government news agency and anti-discrimination agency

- Removed government funding of cinema industry and scientific research

- Devalued peso

Laws stuck in congress because he doesn't have a majority:

- Mega-decree to remove 300 "standards" including rent control

- An omnibus reform that

touches on all areas of public and private life, from privatisations to cultural issues, the penal code, and divorce, to the status of football clubs. I don't the details of them though.

When he came to power, he said that things will get worse before they get better. After devaluing peso, inflation rocketed. But things have started stabilising. There is rise in poverty because of number of people losing subsidies and state sponsored jobs. The government boasted the first budget surplus and Argentina has moved up in the rankings for ease of doing business which could fix these issues in the long run.

I think his election win is a good thing for Argentina and things will definitely get better. Not a fan of his abortion stance. But whether you like his policies or not, one must admire him for relentlessly making the changes he promised. The guy made so many changes in 100 days, the same set of changes that would take years for us to do.

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By *ostindreams OP   Man 16 weeks ago

London

The best part of his tenure so far? The guy flew Lufthansa economy class to go to the Davos Economics forum.

Maybe the politicians who lecture people to save the environment and complain about public spending must learn from him?

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By *ohnnyTwoNotesMan 16 weeks ago

golden fields


"The best part of his tenure so far? The guy flew Lufthansa economy class to go to the Davos Economics forum.

Maybe the politicians who lecture people to save the environment and complain about public spending must learn from him?"

Is economy class better for the environment?

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By *astandFeistyCouple 16 weeks ago

Bournemouth


"The best part of his tenure so far? The guy flew Lufthansa economy class to go to the Davos Economics forum.

Maybe the politicians who lecture people to save the environment and complain about public spending must learn from him?

Is economy class better for the environment?"

It's certainly better than private jet.

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By *ostindreams OP   Man 16 weeks ago

London


"The best part of his tenure so far? The guy flew Lufthansa economy class to go to the Davos Economics forum.

Maybe the politicians who lecture people to save the environment and complain about public spending must learn from him?

Is economy class better for the environment?"

Better than private jet for environment. Marginally better than business class for environment.

Way better than private jet and business class when it comes to state funds.

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By (user no longer on site) 16 weeks ago

I was in Argentina recently. They had a nationwide strike one of the days I was there and coincidentally Germany had a strike that day too.

Anyone would think the world cup final was on

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