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Troops on the streets of LA
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"Being British and not a sycophant of America, I am more concerned about the atrocious decision of my elected government and the mess they are making. " By all means start a new thread then.. 
There's plenty who will agree with whatever you say..
And others will disagree..  | |||
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"Being British and not a sycophant of America, I am more concerned about the atrocious decision of my elected government and the mess they are making. By all means start a new thread then..
There's plenty who will agree with whatever you say..
And others will disagree.. "Hopefully I am wrong, but having Labour in government for the balance of this term is going to be so costly. | |||
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"Being British and not a sycophant of America, I am more concerned about the atrocious decision of my elected government and the mess they are making. By all means start a new thread then..
There's plenty who will agree with whatever you say..
And others will disagree..
Hopefully I am wrong, but having Labour in government for the balance of this term is going to be so costly."Probably more costly under Reform. If anyone can tell me how they will fund all the tax cuts they are proposing, I'd be very interested. | |||
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"Being British and not a sycophant of America, I am more concerned about the atrocious decision of my elected government and the mess they are making. By all means start a new thread then..
There's plenty who will agree with whatever you say..
And others will disagree..
Hopefully I am wrong, but having Labour in government for the balance of this term is going to be so costly."Do you have anything constructive on the actual subject matter I started the thread about? There's plenty of threads about the current UK government. This is about something entirely different. | |||
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"Being British and not a sycophant of America, I am more concerned about the atrocious decision of my elected government and the mess they are making. By all means start a new thread then..
There's plenty who will agree with whatever you say..
And others will disagree..
Hopefully I am wrong, but having Labour in government for the balance of this term is going to be so costly.
Do you have anything constructive on the actual subject matter I started the thread about?
There's plenty of threads about the current UK government.
This is about something entirely different."Thank you… people like to twist the narrative on a subject, I don’t know if it’s because it’s too close, or the Jedi mind trick of look over here instead of! Trump is being deliberately authoritarian and provocative! They are using the excuse of deporting criminals to now deporting everyone! Agitating and provoking I wondered what would happen when they tried snatch squads in places like LA , SF and NYC | |||
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"A cynical person might see it as a good way to deflect from ego wars and mentions of Epstein plus it's a chance to have a dig at a democrat leader.. Win win for the man child " All sorts of people are mentioned in the Epstein files. Al Gore, Clinton, Trump, Prince Andrew. DiCaprio, Bruce Willis, Cameron Diaz, Stephen Hawking. All this information is publicly available and all deny any wrongdoing. It does seem odd that the hapless Ghislaine Maxwell is the only one who has taken the rap for all this. | |||
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"A cynical person might see it as a good way to deflect from ego wars and mentions of Epstein plus it's a chance to have a dig at a democrat leader.. Win win for the man child All sorts of people are mentioned in the Epstein files. Al Gore, Clinton, Trump, Prince Andrew. DiCaprio, Bruce Willis, Cameron Diaz, Stephen Hawking. All this information is publicly available and all deny any wrongdoing. It does seem odd that the hapless Ghislaine Maxwell is the only one who has taken the rap for all this." Also Peter Mandellson and Alistair Campbell. | |||
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"A cynical person might see it as a good way to deflect from ego wars and mentions of Epstein plus it's a chance to have a dig at a democrat leader.. Win win for the man child All sorts of people are mentioned in the Epstein files. Al Gore, Clinton, Trump, Prince Andrew. DiCaprio, Bruce Willis, Cameron Diaz, Stephen Hawking. All this information is publicly available and all deny any wrongdoing. It does seem odd that the hapless Ghislaine Maxwell is the only one who has taken the rap for all this." All perfectly valid however none of them have just sent in the national guard to make a political point.. | |||
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"Being British and not a sycophant of America, I am more concerned about the atrocious decision of my elected government and the mess they are making. By all means start a new thread then..
There's plenty who will agree with whatever you say..
And others will disagree..
Hopefully I am wrong, but having Labour in government for the balance of this term is going to be so costly.
Probably more costly under Reform. If anyone can tell me how they will fund all the tax cuts they are proposing, I'd be very interested. "Jools is getting upset that we are not strictly following his command and question so we need to close this off. Just to say, don’t worry about a group who are not in power, worry about how Labour is going to fund its initiatives. We can worry about reform when they are in power, although I am liking their DOGE approach to spending review at a local level where they have displaced Labour. | |||
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"Being British and not a sycophant of America, I am more concerned about the atrocious decision of my elected government and the mess they are making. By all means start a new thread then..
There's plenty who will agree with whatever you say..
And others will disagree..
Hopefully I am wrong, but having Labour in government for the balance of this term is going to be so costly.
Probably more costly under Reform. If anyone can tell me how they will fund all the tax cuts they are proposing, I'd be very interested.
Jools is getting upset that we are not strictly following his command and question so we need to close this off. Just to say, don’t worry about a group who are not in power, worry about how Labour is going to fund its initiatives. We can worry about reform when they are in power, although I am liking their DOGE approach to spending review at a local level where they have displaced Labour."It could be the brain, though! | |||
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"More mostly peaceful riots." What is your stance. On anything? | |||
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"More mostly peaceful riots." Well the only incident today is that one person tried to break the police line on a motorbike and they were rightly arrested Other than that… it’s been peaceful | |||
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"A cynical person might see it as a good way to deflect from ego wars and mentions of Epstein plus it's a chance to have a dig at a democrat leader.. Win win for the man child All sorts of people are mentioned in the Epstein files. Al Gore, Clinton, Trump, Prince Andrew. DiCaprio, Bruce Willis, Cameron Diaz, Stephen Hawking. All this information is publicly available and all deny any wrongdoing. It does seem odd that the hapless Ghislaine Maxwell is the only one who has taken the rap for all this. All perfectly valid however none of them have just sent in the national guard to make a political point.. " Is he “making a political point”? Or is he protecting federal employees and the general citizenry from fascistic rioting trash? One recalls the billions of dollars of damage and ruined lives caused by the “BLM” riots when Democrat governors refused to take any action to quell the violence. | |||
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"More mostly peaceful riots."  
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"A cynical person might see it as a good way to deflect from ego wars and mentions of Epstein plus it's a chance to have a dig at a democrat leader.. Win win for the man child All sorts of people are mentioned in the Epstein files. Al Gore, Clinton, Trump, Prince Andrew. DiCaprio, Bruce Willis, Cameron Diaz, Stephen Hawking. All this information is publicly available and all deny any wrongdoing. It does seem odd that the hapless Ghislaine Maxwell is the only one who has taken the rap for all this. All perfectly valid however none of them have just sent in the national guard to make a political point.. Is he “making a political point”? Or is he protecting federal employees and the general citizenry from fascistic rioting trash? One recalls the billions of dollars of damage and ruined lives caused by the “BLM” riots when Democrat governors refused to take any action to quell the violence." Your naive if you think he's not.. | |||
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"What makes people think that it is acceptable to protest / riot about this subject? The state was rounding up people who shouldn’t be there and deporting them. That’s perfectly valid and is what should happen here. Why protest?" Has anyone said it is acceptable? | |||
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"What makes people think that it is acceptable to protest / riot about this subject? The state was rounding up people who shouldn’t be there and deporting them. That’s perfectly valid and is what should happen here. Why protest? Has anyone said it is acceptable?" Obviously the people who are protesting think it is. | |||
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"What makes people think that it is acceptable to protest / riot about this subject? The state was rounding up people who shouldn’t be there and deporting them. That’s perfectly valid and is what should happen here. Why protest? Has anyone said it is acceptable? Obviously the people who are protesting think it is." Not sure they'll answer your question tbh.. | |||
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"More mostly peaceful riots. Well the only incident today is that one person tried to break the police line on a motorbike and they were rightly arrested Other than that… it’s been peaceful " Yes, looting, attacking police, burning vehicles. In Paris they just call that 'Summertime'. | |||
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"More mostly peaceful riots. Well the only incident today is that one person tried to break the police line on a motorbike and they were rightly arrested Other than that… it’s been peaceful " I see pictures of burning vehicles on the news sites. Are those from a different day? | |||
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"More mostly peaceful riots. Well the only incident today is that one person tried to break the police line on a motorbike and they were rightly arrested Other than that… it’s been peaceful I see pictures of burning vehicles on the news sites. Are those from a different day?" They were actually community barbecues. | |||
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"What makes people think that it is acceptable to protest / riot about this subject? The state was rounding up people who shouldn’t be there and deporting them. That’s perfectly valid and is what should happen here. Why protest?" Trump said that criminals entering the US illegally would be deported - fair enough. Then the narrative changed to people entering the US illegally were criminals for entering the US. However, there have been plenty of instances where legal migrants have been deported. Human rights are being ignored. Due process is not being followed. | |||
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"What makes people think that it is acceptable to protest / riot about this subject? The state was rounding up people who shouldn’t be there and deporting them. That’s perfectly valid and is what should happen here. Why protest? Trump said that criminals entering the US illegally would be deported - fair enough. Then the narrative changed to people entering the US illegally were criminals for entering the US. However, there have been plenty of instances where legal migrants have been deported. Human rights are being ignored. Due process is not being followed. " USA supports illegal Israeli settlers on West Bank, and illegally invaded Iraq. I doubt they give a toss about due process. | |||
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"What makes people think that it is acceptable to protest / riot about this subject? The state was rounding up people who shouldn’t be there and deporting them. That’s perfectly valid and is what should happen here. Why protest? Trump said that criminals entering the US illegally would be deported - fair enough. Then the narrative changed to people entering the US illegally were criminals for entering the US. However, there have been plenty of instances where legal migrants have been deported. Human rights are being ignored. Due process is not being followed. USA supports illegal Israeli settlers on West Bank, and illegally invaded Iraq. I doubt they give a toss about due process. " It sounds like the citizens of the US give a toss about due process. | |||
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"LA is a sanctuary city. The Trump administration has condemned sanctuary cities as obstructing immigration enforcement, and the president has vowed to punish jurisdictions that do not cooperate." The problem at the moment is the people that are being targeted.. The trump administration said they were only going to deport the violent criminals… if that had been the case no one would have argued The place that was actually targeted….. a home depot (the us equivalent of Homebase!) and the people they went after were day labourers They have also gone after people going through the legal process with local court appearance dates…. For example… an 18 year old university student was pulled over for allegedly making an illegal turn in her car, found she had never been documented because her parents brought her here when she was 4… used it as an excuse to send her to an immigration facility and threaten her with deportation Then it came out the police had followed the wrong car.. and dropped the charges But homeland security and immigration still was to deport | |||
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"LA is a sanctuary city. The Trump administration has condemned sanctuary cities as obstructing immigration enforcement, and the president has vowed to punish jurisdictions that do not cooperate. The problem at the moment is the people that are being targeted.. The trump administration said they were only going to deport the violent criminals… if that had been the case no one would have argued The place that was actually targeted….. a home depot (the us equivalent of Homebase!) and the people they went after were day labourers They have also gone after people going through the legal process with local court appearance dates…. For example… an 18 year old university student was pulled over for allegedly making an illegal turn in her car, found she had never been documented because her parents brought her here when she was 4… used it as an excuse to send her to an immigration facility and threaten her with deportation Then it came out the police had followed the wrong car.. and dropped the charges But homeland security and immigration still was to deport " I agree. The original pledge was to deport criminals who enters the US illegally, but is not what is currently happening. | |||
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"LA is a sanctuary city. The Trump administration has condemned sanctuary cities as obstructing immigration enforcement, and the president has vowed to punish jurisdictions that do not cooperate. The problem at the moment is the people that are being targeted.. The trump administration said they were only going to deport the violent criminals… if that had been the case no one would have argued The place that was actually targeted….. a home depot (the us equivalent of Homebase!) and the people they went after were day labourers They have also gone after people going through the legal process with local court appearance dates…. For example… an 18 year old university student was pulled over for allegedly making an illegal turn in her car, found she had never been documented because her parents brought her here when she was 4… used it as an excuse to send her to an immigration facility and threaten her with deportation Then it came out the police had followed the wrong car.. and dropped the charges But homeland security and immigration still was to deport " So her family came to the US illegally and in 14 years have never made their situation legal. | |||
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"LA is a sanctuary city. The Trump administration has condemned sanctuary cities as obstructing immigration enforcement, and the president has vowed to punish jurisdictions that do not cooperate. The problem at the moment is the people that are being targeted.. The trump administration said they were only going to deport the violent criminals… if that had been the case no one would have argued The place that was actually targeted….. a home depot (the us equivalent of Homebase!) and the people they went after were day labourers They have also gone after people going through the legal process with local court appearance dates…. For example… an 18 year old university student was pulled over for allegedly making an illegal turn in her car, found she had never been documented because her parents brought her here when she was 4… used it as an excuse to send her to an immigration facility and threaten her with deportation Then it came out the police had followed the wrong car.. and dropped the charges But homeland security and immigration still was to deport So her family came to the US illegally and in 14 years have never made their situation legal. " No reference was made as to the status of her parents, just that the 18 year old was undocumented. | |||
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"LA is a sanctuary city. The Trump administration has condemned sanctuary cities as obstructing immigration enforcement, and the president has vowed to punish jurisdictions that do not cooperate. The problem at the moment is the people that are being targeted.. The trump administration said they were only going to deport the violent criminals… if that had been the case no one would have argued The place that was actually targeted….. a home depot (the us equivalent of Homebase!) and the people they went after were day labourers They have also gone after people going through the legal process with local court appearance dates…. For example… an 18 year old university student was pulled over for allegedly making an illegal turn in her car, found she had never been documented because her parents brought her here when she was 4… used it as an excuse to send her to an immigration facility and threaten her with deportation Then it came out the police had followed the wrong car.. and dropped the charges But homeland security and immigration still was to deport So her family came to the US illegally and in 14 years have never made their situation legal. No reference was made as to the status of her parents, just that the 18 year old was undocumented. " I think it's a fair assumption that if she is undocumented at 18 its because her parents were undocumented/illegal residents. If they'd made their situation legal then she would have become a legal citizen too. | |||
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"LA is a sanctuary city. The Trump administration has condemned sanctuary cities as obstructing immigration enforcement, and the president has vowed to punish jurisdictions that do not cooperate. The problem at the moment is the people that are being targeted.. The trump administration said they were only going to deport the violent criminals… if that had been the case no one would have argued The place that was actually targeted….. a home depot (the us equivalent of Homebase!) and the people they went after were day labourers They have also gone after people going through the legal process with local court appearance dates…. For example… an 18 year old university student was pulled over for allegedly making an illegal turn in her car, found she had never been documented because her parents brought her here when she was 4… used it as an excuse to send her to an immigration facility and threaten her with deportation Then it came out the police had followed the wrong car.. and dropped the charges But homeland security and immigration still was to deport " Why is it a problem? They are there illegally so should be deported. No questions asked. | |||
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"I think it's a fair assumption that if she is undocumented at 18 its because her parents were undocumented/illegal residents. If they'd made their situation legal then she would have become a legal citizen too." That's not how it works. Each person has to apply individually. A child doesn't get citizenship just because their parents get it. | |||
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"I think it's a fair assumption that if she is undocumented at 18 its because her parents were undocumented/illegal residents. If they'd made their situation legal then she would have become a legal citizen too. That's not how it works. Each person has to apply individually. A child doesn't get citizenship just because their parents get it." Not automatically but if her parents had regularised their situation it would be pretty bizarre if they hadn't done the same for her too. | |||
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"These rioters think they are still living under Sleepy Joe and they will get a free pass. They will be going down for a long time for this senseless violence." BUT ,,,, Trump is now The President ,,,, Not Sleepy Joe ,,,, Rioters will be pardoned | |||
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"LA and California in general should be a wake up call to Europe. Progressive governance and idealism has turned the place inside out. Their liberal policies have made the place a petri dish for the next new wave of social destruction. Homelessness off the scale, d**g use openly out of control, retail closing down, crime and anti social behaviour is now the new normal. We will do nothing though other than sit back and watch as it slowly creeps into our world." Sounds like the last 14 years of Tory rule  | |||
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"LA and California in general should be a wake up call to Europe. Progressive governance and idealism has turned the place inside out. Their liberal policies have made the place a petri dish for the next new wave of social destruction. Homelessness off the scale, d**g use openly out of control, retail closing down, crime and anti social behaviour is now the new normal. We will do nothing though other than sit back and watch as it slowly creeps into our world." The same patterns can be see throughout much of the UK. Huge black economy and open illegal businesses fuelled by illegal migration, open drug dealing and consumption, police withdrawal from the streets, litter and fly tipping all around. Collapse of neighbourhood connections leading to low trust, high anxiety communities. | |||
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"LA and California in general should be a wake up call to Europe. Progressive governance and idealism has turned the place inside out. Their liberal policies have made the place a petri dish for the next new wave of social destruction. Homelessness off the scale, d**g use openly out of control, retail closing down, crime and anti social behaviour is now the new normal. We will do nothing though other than sit back and watch as it slowly creeps into our world. The same patterns can be see throughout much of the UK. Huge black economy and open illegal businesses fuelled by illegal migration, open drug dealing and consumption, police withdrawal from the streets, litter and fly tipping all around. Collapse of neighbourhood connections leading to low trust, high anxiety communities." £3trn in debt, 9.5 million on benefits, one million youth unemployment, half of social housing stock sold off, 3 million foodbank meals, not enough prisons, lightweight sentencing etc Race to the bottom | |||
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"It'll be ok as trump will surely pardon those who have been arrested yes? " nah they will have to wait until at least 2029 | |||
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"It'll be ok as trump will surely pardon those who have been arrested yes? nah they will have to wait until at least 2029" The suspense of the jr ewing fiasco was enough for me, I couldn't take waiting until 2029, who did shoot him anyway? | |||
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"It'll be ok as trump will surely pardon those who have been arrested yes? nah they will have to wait until at least 2029 The suspense of the jr ewing fiasco was enough for me, I couldn't take waiting until 2029, who did shoot him anyway?" Lord Lucan who then escaped on shergar.. | |||
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"He was Elected on his Mandate laid out during campaigning for the presidency I don’t Agree with a lot of his policies But Millions of Americans do . Unfortunately the illegal Migration since the 70’s hasn’t Been Addressed by any past president’s. " The mandate was violent criminals… not people working for home depot Anyway… latest update California sues trump administration over the use of the national guard Trump administration response… active a battalion of marines instead | |||
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"Serious unrest in Ballymena, Northern Ireland tonight. Community cohesion breaking down in lots of places around the world." Just offer them free tickets to a Jimmy Cricket concert, that’ll soon placate them. | |||
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"See larger disorderly crowds every weekend night. The response in US seems very disproptionate" What a Saturday night in Swansea involves people blocking the highways and burning taxis? Sounds pretty grim. | |||
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" I am beginning to feel sorry for the LAPD, where because it’s a sanctuary city, they don’t actually help ICE and DHS on the raids.. but they are the ones getting it " Agreed. They are victims in this, for simply trying to do their jobs. Trump is not handling this like a statesman, he's behaving like an aspiring dictator spoiling for a fight with his own citizens. Then again, some would argue that this is simply the way things should be and that the West needs to stop being so soft. That is a very valid stance to take - if people want to live in that sort of society. Moreover, this is the exact type of behaviour that gun-toting freedom lovers use to justify bearing arms. Here we have a federal government treading on a state against its wishes, to enforce federal law that is at odds with the values of the state. | |||
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"And trump ups the ante again… orders another 2000 national guards in on top of the original 2000… plus the defence secretary has ordered in 700 marines I am beginning to feel sorry for the LAPD, where because it’s a sanctuary city, they don’t actually help ICE and DHS on the raids.. but they are the ones getting it Trump is really goading people into giving him an excuse to activate martial law " 'Sanctuary City' meaning the authorities enable illegal immigration and obstruct those authorities attempting to enforce the law. Under Biden illegal migration skyrocketed and most Americans want it controlled and reduced. What we're seeing in LA is a revolt against democracy and the law, supported by the Mayor and Govenor. | |||
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"And trump ups the ante again… orders another 2000 national guards in on top of the original 2000… plus the defence secretary has ordered in 700 marines I am beginning to feel sorry for the LAPD, where because it’s a sanctuary city, they don’t actually help ICE and DHS on the raids.. but they are the ones getting it Trump is really goading people into giving him an excuse to activate martial law " If a state chooses to ignore federal immigration laws by refusing to cooperate, ICE or DHS will have to step in directly. This can't be ignored or even up for debate, by any government. The riots aren't the fault of enforcement or Trump, it’s the fault of California and LA who have refused to uphold the laws in the first place, they have created this melting pot. The far left groups of mask wearing thugs in LA who resort to violent protest, looting, and setting fire to anything they can get their hands on is sadly all too predictable they thrive on it.. Why anyone would want to live in a place like that is bind boggling. | |||
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"And trump ups the ante again… orders another 2000 national guards in on top of the original 2000… plus the defence secretary has ordered in 700 marines I am beginning to feel sorry for the LAPD, where because it’s a sanctuary city, they don’t actually help ICE and DHS on the raids.. but they are the ones getting it Trump is really goading people into giving him an excuse to activate martial law If a state chooses to ignore federal immigration laws by refusing to cooperate, ICE or DHS will have to step in directly. This can't be ignored or even up for debate, by any government. The riots aren't the fault of enforcement or Trump, it’s the fault of California and LA who have refused to uphold the laws in the first place, they have created this melting pot. The far left groups of mask wearing thugs in LA who resort to violent protest, looting, and setting fire to anything they can get their hands on is sadly all too predictable they thrive on it.. Why anyone would want to live in a place like that is bind boggling. " Why do the left support mass illegal migration that drives down wages and increases crime in the poorest communities? | |||
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" The riots aren't the fault of enforcement or Trump..." Being right and enforcing the law is not the same thing as ruling wisely. | |||
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"It doesn't look like this has anything to do with what's actually happening on the ground as the local police could handle it. It might just be a very convenient excuse for Trump to test the limits of what he can get away with. If the experiment works (from his perspective) then he will know that in future he can send the National Guard and Marines into any situation where he feels there is an "emergency". In effect they become his personal domestic fighting force. " LA a sanctuary state: Refuses to put ICE detainees in custody. Does not allow ICE access to jails or databases without a warrant. Actively resists immigration raids. And you suggest that Federal powers should sit back and allow their workforce in ICE and DHS to be attacked whilst carrying out their duties? Actions have consequences. | |||
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" The riots aren't the fault of enforcement or Trump... Being right and enforcing the law is not the same thing as ruling wisely." My post above this goes some way to answer that. | |||
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"LA a sanctuary state: Refuses to put ICE detainees in custody. Does not allow ICE access to jails or databases without a warrant. Actively resists immigration raids. And you suggest that Federal powers should sit back and allow their workforce in ICE and DHS to be attacked whilst carrying out their duties? Actions have consequences." There are supposed to be constitutional limits to what the POTUS can do and individual states have a large degree of autonomy. The legal relationship between California and the USA isn't like that between an English county and the UK. There are sanctions that the federal executive can use to try and change what States do but Trump is instead looking to use the US military against the US population to impose his will. | |||
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" Why do the left support mass illegal migration that drives down wages and increases crime in the poorest communities?" Tribalism. (Which goes both ways) | |||
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"LA a sanctuary state: Refuses to put ICE detainees in custody. Does not allow ICE access to jails or databases without a warrant. Actively resists immigration raids. And you suggest that Federal powers should sit back and allow their workforce in ICE and DHS to be attacked whilst carrying out their duties? Actions have consequences. There are supposed to be constitutional limits to what the POTUS can do and individual states have a large degree of autonomy. The legal relationship between California and the USA isn't like that between an English county and the UK. There are sanctions that the federal executive can use to try and change what States do but Trump is instead looking to use the US military against the US population to impose his will. " There are also Constitutional limits on what States can do. If States intentionally obstruct the legal process then Federal intervention is absolutely justified and necessary, as happened when Southern States refused to implement Civil Rights laws or protect black citizens. | |||
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"LA a sanctuary state: Refuses to put ICE detainees in custody. Does not allow ICE access to jails or databases without a warrant. Actively resists immigration raids. And you suggest that Federal powers should sit back and allow their workforce in ICE and DHS to be attacked whilst carrying out their duties? Actions have consequences. There are supposed to be constitutional limits to what the POTUS can do and individual states have a large degree of autonomy. The legal relationship between California and the USA isn't like that between an English county and the UK. There are sanctions that the federal executive can use to try and change what States do but Trump is instead looking to use the US military against the US population to impose his will. " Federal law supersedes state law under the the constitution, and the government has a duty to protect its personnel and enforce national laws. If LA and California want to allow illegal immigration go unchecked there is a consequence to that decision. | |||
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"It doesn't look like this has anything to do with what's actually happening on the ground as the local police could handle it. It might just be a very convenient excuse for Trump to test the limits of what he can get away with. If the experiment works (from his perspective) then he will know that in future he can send the National Guard and Marines into any situation where he feels there is an "emergency". In effect they become his personal domestic fighting force. " This absolutely The local police say they do not need the help The mayor say they do no need the help The governor has said they do not need the help It’s absolutely a “testing of limits” exercise.. no one has invoked the national guard without the request of a governor in 60 years (Lyndon b Johnson in 65 protecting civil rights marchers) He is “hoping” it spreads up the coast.. San Diego, San Francisco, Portland and Seattle, into Texas… Dallas, Austin, San Antonio and El Paso… New York ect He gets to invoke martial law…. | |||
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" The local police say they do not need the help The mayor say they do no need the help The governor has said they do not need the help " Perhaps they don't want the help to do the job they are refusing to do. If a state is frustrating the will of the federal government so blatantly, they know that they're playing with fire. And there's a pyromaniac president... | |||
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"Looks like the riots have calmed down, quite a contrast with the BLM riots which were allowed to run unchecked for days if not weeks." Trump has a win/win set up. Riots stop: "I did it. Me. With my big, beautiful army!" Riots continue: "See? We need more firepower!" Great politics. Well played. | |||
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"There are also Constitutional limits on what States can do. If States intentionally obstruct the legal process then Federal intervention is absolutely justified and necessary, as happened when Southern States refused to implement Civil Rights laws or protect black citizens." Yes, when the Supreme Court judged that racial segregation in schools was unconstitutional and the Governor of Arkansas ordered the Arkansas National Guard to stop black children going to Little Rock Central High, President Eisenhower used emergency powers to protect nine children and let them go to school. | |||
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"It doesn't look like this has anything to do with what's actually happening on the ground as the local police could handle it. It might just be a very convenient excuse for Trump to test the limits of what he can get away with. If the experiment works (from his perspective) then he will know that in future he can send the National Guard and Marines into any situation where he feels there is an "emergency". In effect they become his personal domestic fighting force. This absolutely The local police say they do not need the help The mayor say they do no need the help The governor has said they do not need the help It’s absolutely a “testing of limits” exercise.. no one has invoked the national guard without the request of a governor in 60 years (Lyndon b Johnson in 65 protecting civil rights marchers) He is “hoping” it spreads up the coast.. San Diego, San Francisco, Portland and Seattle, into Texas… Dallas, Austin, San Antonio and El Paso… New York ect He gets to invoke martial law…. " This is starting to sound like conspiracy theory, which is unlike you? The facts are in front of everyone to see, California refuse to police immigration, the police have said they can do nothing to police it. ICE and DHS were carrying out their duties and were attacked, the sanctuary state and city doesn't allow the police to support the federal agencies carrying out their duty and this allowed the riot to swell fast as rioters attacked the buildings detainees were being taken to. The police response was very poor and they lost control immediately. However the ky point in here is, there is still work for ICE and DHS to do and they need better support. | |||
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"Federal law supersedes state law under the the constitution..." Check out the Tenth Amendment. The first paragraph of the wiki entry gives a reasonable summary... "The Tenth Amendment (Amendment X) to the United States Constitution, a part of the Bill of Rights, was ratified on December 15, 1791.[1] It expresses the principle of federalism, whereby the federal government and the individual states share power, by mutual agreement. The Tenth Amendment prescribes that the federal government has only those powers delegated to it by the Constitution, and that all other powers not forbidden to the states by the Constitution are reserved to each state, or to the people." | |||
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"Federal law supersedes state law under the the constitution... Check out the Tenth Amendment. The first paragraph of the wiki entry gives a reasonable summary... The Tenth Amendment (Amendment X) to the United States Constitution, a part of the Bill of Rights, was ratified on December 15, 1791.[1] It expresses the principle of federalism, whereby the federal government and the individual states share power, by mutual agreement. The Tenth Amendment prescribes that the federal government has only those powers delegated to it by the Constitution, and that all other powers not forbidden to the states by the Constitution are reserved to each state, or to the people. " Federal law overrides conflicts with state laws, especially in areas that are delegated to the federal government, and immigration is one of them. The 10th amendment, covers laws that are not not delegated to federal control. The Supreme Court has always ruled that immigration enforcement is a federal responsibility, therefore the 10th amendment does not apply. | |||
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"Federal law overrides conflicts with state laws, especially in areas that are delegated to the federal government, and immigration is one of them. The 10th amendment, covers laws that are not not delegated to federal control. The Supreme Court has always ruled that immigration enforcement is a federal responsibility, therefore the 10th amendment does not apply. " The constitution is clear that naturalization (who is classed as a US citizen) is a federal issue. Otherwise the federal leglislation on immigration is I think governed by the Immigration Reform and Control Act which makes it illegal for employers who employ more than three people to hire illegal immigrants and immigrants can be deported on being convicted of crimes. As far as I know there is no constitutional basis for compelling sanctuary states or cities to cooperate with federal immigration agencies otherwise they wouldn't exist. | |||
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"Federal law overrides conflicts with state laws, especially in areas that are delegated to the federal government, and immigration is one of them. The 10th amendment, covers laws that are not not delegated to federal control. The Supreme Court has always ruled that immigration enforcement is a federal responsibility, therefore the 10th amendment does not apply. The constitution is clear that naturalization (who is classed as a US citizen) is a federal issue. Otherwise the federal leglislation on immigration is I think governed by the Immigration Reform and Control Act which makes it illegal for employers who employ more than three people to hire illegal immigrants and immigrants can be deported on being convicted of crimes. As far as I know there is no constitutional basis for compelling sanctuary states or cities to cooperate with federal immigration agencies otherwise they wouldn't exist. " You are tying yourself up a little here.. what you have said above is why ICE and DHS are there, and why there was no support from local police as they carried out their duties. The government are right to protect its employees from attack and to support them in their duties. They can't rely on local police as they continue to carry out their duties due to sanctuary state law, hence the national guard. | |||
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" As far as I know there is no constitutional basis for compelling sanctuary states or cities to cooperate with federal immigration agencies otherwise they wouldn't exist. " This is exactly the problem. The state won't help, so the federal government is doing it. That's worrisome, because their tool is very big and blunt. This causes civil interest. Rioting is an excuse to bring in more big and blunt tools. Those rioting need to stand down immediately, or they will undermine their own cause. Trump probably knew that you can always rely on a few nut jobs (statistically, this is always the case) to become provoked. The solution begins to justify itself. | |||
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"You are tying yourself up a little here.. what you have said above is why ICE and DHS are there, and why there was no support from local police as they carried out their duties. The government are right to protect its employees from attack and to support them in their duties. They can't rely on local police as they continue to carry out their duties due to sanctuary state law, hence the national guard. " As far as I know the excuse Trump used to send in the National Guard and Marines was to stop the rioting. Are you suggesting that the intention is to integrate the military with law enforcement agencies to form joint teams that will raid places of business? | |||
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"This is exactly the problem. The state won't help, so the federal government is doing it. That's worrisome, because their tool is very big and blunt. This causes civil interest. Rioting is an excuse to bring in more big and blunt tools. Those rioting need to stand down immediately, or they will undermine their own cause. Trump probably knew that you can always rely on a few nut jobs (statistically, this is always the case) to become provoked. The solution begins to justify itself." I agree the rioters have played into Trumps hands. It seems to be calming down so unless there's some major flare up, the troops will be pulled back soon. Unfortunately however Trump will conclude that he can indeed treat the National Guard and Marines as his own private military force should he wish to do so in the future. | |||
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"You are tying yourself up a little here.. what you have said above is why ICE and DHS are there, and why there was no support from local police as they carried out their duties. The government are right to protect its employees from attack and to support them in their duties. They can't rely on local police as they continue to carry out their duties due to sanctuary state law, hence the national guard. As far as I know the excuse Trump used to send in the National Guard and Marines was to stop the rioting. Are you suggesting that the intention is to integrate the military with law enforcement agencies to form joint teams that will raid places of business?" No that can't happen due to California being a sanctuary state, "local enforcement will not support federal immigration activities". Sanctuary state laws allowed the riot to begin quickly, due to the lack of support and the police lost control. National Guard was deployed to restore order and will be there to protect the ongoing work of ICE and DHS. If that doesn't happen those rioting will have dealt a significant blow to federal policy, which can't happen. | |||
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"This is exactly the problem. The state won't help, so the federal government is doing it. That's worrisome, because their tool is very big and blunt. This causes civil interest. Rioting is an excuse to bring in more big and blunt tools. Those rioting need to stand down immediately, or they will undermine their own cause. Trump probably knew that you can always rely on a few nut jobs (statistically, this is always the case) to become provoked. The solution begins to justify itself. I agree the rioters have played into Trumps hands. It seems to be calming down so unless there's some major flare up, the troops will be pulled back soon. Unfortunately however Trump will conclude that he can indeed treat the National Guard and Marines as his own private military force should he wish to do so in the future." No he can't. Your point on the 10th amendment would prevent that. | |||
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"More mostly peaceful riots. Well the only incident today is that one person tried to break the police line on a motorbike and they were rightly arrested Other than that… it’s been peaceful " burning cars, throwing frozen water bottles and bicks is peaceful?  | |||
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"No that can't happen due to California being a sanctuary state, "local enforcement will not support federal immigration activities"." What I meant by law enforcement agencies in the context of that post was ICE and DHS not the local police. "Sanctuary state laws allowed the riot to begin quickly, due to the lack of support and the police lost control. National Guard was deployed to restore order and will be there to protect the ongoing work of ICE and DHS." You might criticize the police for mishandling the situation but I don't think they deliberately stood back and let the rioters get on with it. | |||
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"No that can't happen due to California being a sanctuary state, "local enforcement will not support federal immigration activities". What I meant by law enforcement agencies in the context of that post was ICE and DHS not the local police. Sanctuary state laws allowed the riot to begin quickly, due to the lack of support and the police lost control. National Guard was deployed to restore order and will be there to protect the ongoing work of ICE and DHS. You might criticize the police for mishandling the situation but I don't think they deliberately stood back and let the rioters get on with it. " I’m not criticising the police directly they’re in a difficult position. The issue is that sanctuary state policies restrict what they can do, and it muddies the cooperation with ICE and DHS. This creates a lag in response, which in fast moving situations like a riot it gives the rioters a head start. Police are left playing catch up. California should not expect federal government to do nothing because it has chosen not enforce federal immigration policies. | |||
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"Whenever— (1) the United States, or any of the Commonwealths or possessions, is invaded or is in danger of invasion by a foreign nation; (2) there is a rebellion or danger of a rebellion against the authority of the Government of the United States; or (3) the President is unable with the regular forces to execute the laws of the United States; the President may call into Federal service members and units of the National Guard of any State in such numbers as he considers necessary to repel the invasion, suppress the rebellion, or execute those laws. Orders for these purposes shall be issued through the governors of the States or, in the case of the District of Columbia, through the commanding general of the National Guard of the District of Columbia." I guess the White House lawyers are arguing that (3) applies so that using the National Guard is allowed but what about the Marines? The only way to use the Marines domestically is via the Insurrection Act and as far as I can tell Trump hasn't actually invoked the Insurrection Act, so technically the 700 Marines are not deployed. They are on standby. When asked by ABC on Sunday what the bar for sending in active-duty Marines was, Trump replied "The bar is what I think is", so this might not be over yet as his experiment in California still has this second phase element untested. | |||
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"Digging a bit deeper it seems that the White House is using Title 10 12406 to send the National Guard in. Whenever— (1) the United States, or any of the Commonwealths or possessions, is invaded or is in danger of invasion by a foreign nation; (2) there is a rebellion or danger of a rebellion against the authority of the Government of the United States; or (3) the President is unable with the regular forces to execute the laws of the United States; the President may call into Federal service members and units of the National Guard of any State in such numbers as he considers necessary to repel the invasion, suppress the rebellion, or execute those laws. Orders for these purposes shall be issued through the governors of the States or, in the case of the District of Columbia, through the commanding general of the National Guard of the District of Columbia. I guess the White House lawyers are arguing that (3) applies so that using the National Guard is allowed but what about the Marines? The only way to use the Marines domestically is via the Insurrection Act and as far as I can tell Trump hasn't actually invoked the Insurrection Act, so technically the 700 Marines are not deployed. They are on standby. When asked by ABC on Sunday what the bar for sending in active-duty Marines was, Trump replied "The bar is what I think is", so this might not be over yet as his experiment in California still has this second phase element untested." The Marines are on standby, it is not as simple as using the National Guard. Going back to the National Guard, it needs to be clear that they are Californian National Guard and Trump has taken federal control, to ensure federal law can be carried out. I have mentioned this a number of times, ICE and DHS are still arresting illegal immigrants and they can't do that safely because the police in California do not assist ICE in immigration matters. The last part of ref testing and experiment, that is falling into conspiracy territory | |||
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"More mostly peaceful riots. Well the only incident today is that one person tried to break the police line on a motorbike and they were rightly arrested Other than that… it’s been peaceful burning cars, throwing frozen water bottles and bicks is peaceful? "yep in his head it is,he also thought the summer of love in 2020 was mostly peaceful aswell | |||
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"The last part of ref testing and experiment, that is falling into conspiracy territory" I thought such talk was conspiratorial too until I started looking into the various philosophies, organisations and individuals behind the MAGA movement. It's not a conspiracy in the sense of it being secret as their goals are quite openly stated. Although to be honest reading stuff like the latest Mandate for Leadership is hard work as it's so very badly written. Military domination of the US people by the government is definitely not the purpose of this movement, it's just that it's prepared to use government sponsored violence if it is necessary. In his child-like naivety Trump thinks he is leading the movement, but he is just a frontman. The irony is that most of his supporters are against the tryanny of government but they are prepared to support government tyranny if it is directed at those they consider to be their enemies. | |||
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"Protestors do not burn cars and steel from shops. so stop calling them protestors." Not all have carried out crime so it's important to differentiate rather than use one word which does apply to all.. | |||
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"Laughing at some wally who decided to dox ICE agents home addresses and locations where they are. Was all fun and games until somebody done it to him. Not the brightest seems a lot of these rioters are coming very unstuck. Seems very similar to the clowns on Jan 6. Guess they will have to wait for the next administration to pardon them. " Some of the rioters who stormed the Capitol are now suing the Government for how they were treated by the justice system.. | |||
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"Laughing at some wally who decided to dox ICE agents home addresses and locations where they are. Was all fun and games until somebody done it to him. Not the brightest seems a lot of these rioters are coming very unstuck. Seems very similar to the clowns on Jan 6. Guess they will have to wait for the next administration to pardon them. Some of the rioters who stormed the Capitol are now suing the Government for how they were treated by the justice system.. " I suspect we will see the same over here following the Southport riots. Whether they win is a different matter. | |||
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"Laughing at some wally who decided to dox ICE agents home addresses and locations where they are. Was all fun and games until somebody done it to him. Not the brightest seems a lot of these rioters are coming very unstuck. Seems very similar to the clowns on Jan 6. Guess they will have to wait for the next administration to pardon them. Some of the rioters who stormed the Capitol are now suing the Government for how they were treated by the justice system.. I suspect we will see the same over here following the Southport riots. Whether they win is a different matter. " Possibly but in pardoning them trump has strengthened their position, that won't happen here .. | |||
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"The last part of ref testing and experiment, that is falling into conspiracy territory I thought such talk was conspiratorial too until I started looking into the various philosophies, organisations and individuals behind the MAGA movement. It's not a conspiracy in the sense of it being secret as their goals are quite openly stated. Although to be honest reading stuff like the latest Mandate for Leadership is hard work as it's so very badly written. Military domination of the US people by the government is definitely not the purpose of this movement, it's just that it's prepared to use government sponsored violence if it is necessary. In his child-like naivety Trump thinks he is leading the movement, but he is just a frontman. The irony is that most of his supporters are against the tryanny of government but they are prepared to support government tyranny if it is directed at those they consider to be their enemies." You’re edging into conspiracy territory when you, talk of a coordinated behind the scenes movement using Trump as a puppet, and suggesting a “government experiment” on states like California. I can't alter your perspective if this is what you truly believe! I can suggest you take a step back and remove the emotive parts such as tyranny when looking at the response by the federal government to a riot that threatened the laws of the country and its agents enforcing it. After that, if you still see the response by the government as tyranny then you are simply saying that illegal immigration should not be policed, and any attempt to do that will be met with force that should not be challenged. | |||
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"You’re edging into conspiracy territory when you, talk of a coordinated behind the scenes movement using Trump as a puppet, and suggesting a “government experiment” on states like California. I can't alter your perspective if this is what you truly believe! I can suggest you take a step back and remove the emotive parts such as tyranny when looking at the response by the federal government to a riot that threatened the laws of the country and its agents enforcing it. After that, if you still see the response by the government as tyranny then you are simply saying that illegal immigration should not be policed, and any attempt to do that will be met with force that should not be challenged." This is a very large subject area that isn't really on topic for this thread so I'll only outline a response. It's not based on emotion but close study of US politics over many years and as I've mentioned before my partner was a US citizen and she was intensely interested in politics and extremely proud of the US Constitution - something we discussed at length over many years. MAGA is not so much a coordinated movement as a coalition of disparate groups united only by a desire to reverse what they see as a liberal hegemony. And I described Trump as a frontman rather than a puppet. He has genuine power and believes himself to be the leader but he was effectively chosen. I'm sure many who helped him into power are beginning to regret it as he is perhaps more of a maniac than they bargained for. In the USA politics and money are intertwined in a way that's totally different to in the UK. You need a lot of money behind you to have any chance of getting into power. He got the backing of wealthy donars because they thought he was a good vehicle for their agenda. The capitalist wing of MAGA are looking for massive deregulation and minimal taxation. The aim is flat taxation and the dream is for there eventually to be only a consumption tax. The working class wing are hoping for the American dream to materialize. They were fed a story and it's turned out to be a fantasy. People at the bottom of the pile in the US are really struggling. Workers rights and healthcare are almost non-existent if you don't have a good job. Many blame it on some vague elite class or migrants and are susceptible to populist manipulation. MAGA rhetoric promises a return to the dream even though in practice Trump is taking money out of their pockets and giving it to billionaires in his Big Beautiful Bill. The Evangelical wing see liberals as a moral threat to their belief system. They see Trump as on their side even though they know he is morally corrupt himself. The Christian Nationalists overlap the religion thing with politics. Some of these people are so puritan that they want to ban contraception. Then we have the gun lobby. Crikey, I'll stop there even though I've only just scratched the surface. The tyranny I spoke of wasn't about the current situation were federal forces are being used in a state, but a more generalized tyranny where laws are effectively only to protect those in power and power comes through financial and physical might. Returning more to the subject at hand, I don't think immigration is seen as a major problem by most Californians. They are in a sense all recent immigrants themselves and compared with the rest of the USA many Californians think they are doing very well and if anything are paying to prop up ungrateful poor Republican states. The population density in California is about 250 people per square mile compared with England's 1,130 per square mile so that has something to do with it too. | |||
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"You’re edging into conspiracy territory when you, talk of a coordinated behind the scenes movement using Trump as a puppet, and suggesting a “government experiment” on states like California. I can't alter your perspective if this is what you truly believe! I can suggest you take a step back and remove the emotive parts such as tyranny when looking at the response by the federal government to a riot that threatened the laws of the country and its agents enforcing it. After that, if you still see the response by the government as tyranny then you are simply saying that illegal immigration should not be policed, and any attempt to do that will be met with force that should not be challenged. This is a very large subject area that isn't really on topic for this thread so I'll only outline a response. It's not based on emotion but close study of US politics over many years and as I've mentioned before my partner was a US citizen and she was intensely interested in politics and extremely proud of the US Constitution - something we discussed at length over many years. MAGA is not so much a coordinated movement as a coalition of disparate groups united only by a desire to reverse what they see as a liberal hegemony. And I described Trump as a frontman rather than a puppet. He has genuine power and believes himself to be the leader but he was effectively chosen. I'm sure many who helped him into power are beginning to regret it as he is perhaps more of a maniac than they bargained for. In the USA politics and money are intertwined in a way that's totally different to in the UK. You need a lot of money behind you to have any chance of getting into power. He got the backing of wealthy donars because they thought he was a good vehicle for their agenda. The capitalist wing of MAGA are looking for massive deregulation and minimal taxation. The aim is flat taxation and the dream is for there eventually to be only a consumption tax. The working class wing are hoping for the American dream to materialize. They were fed a story and it's turned out to be a fantasy. People at the bottom of the pile in the US are really struggling. Workers rights and healthcare are almost non-existent if you don't have a good job. Many blame it on some vague elite class or migrants and are susceptible to populist manipulation. MAGA rhetoric promises a return to the dream even though in practice Trump is taking money out of their pockets and giving it to billionaires in his Big Beautiful Bill. The Evangelical wing see liberals as a moral threat to their belief system. They see Trump as on their side even though they know he is morally corrupt himself. The Christian Nationalists overlap the religion thing with politics. Some of these people are so puritan that they want to ban contraception. Then we have the gun lobby. Crikey, I'll stop there even though I've only just scratched the surface. The tyranny I spoke of wasn't about the current situation were federal forces are being used in a state, but a more generalized tyranny where laws are effectively only to protect those in power and power comes through financial and physical might. Returning more to the subject at hand, I don't think immigration is seen as a major problem by most Californians. They are in a sense all recent immigrants themselves and compared with the rest of the USA many Californians think they are doing very well and if anything are paying to prop up ungrateful poor Republican states. The population density in California is about 250 people per square mile compared with England's 1,130 per square mile so that has something to do with it too." I appreciate the effort to unpack the state of US politics, but we’ve drifted from the original point. LAPD are now policing the streets, and other cities are facing riots that they look like they are dealing with. I think Trump was decisive in taking federal control of the National Guard, it protected federal property and people as they went about their duties and was a shot across the bows of the Californian libertarians Newsom and Bass. | |||
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"More mostly peaceful riots. Well the only incident today is that one person tried to break the police line on a motorbike and they were rightly arrested Other than that… it’s been peaceful " LAPD making 'thousands' of arrests. Even the left wing Mayor of LA has had to bring in curfew to stop looting. Thank goodness Trump acted decisively against these 'peaceful' protests. | |||
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"I appreciate the effort to unpack the state of US politics, but we’ve drifted from the original point. LAPD are now policing the streets, and other cities are facing riots that they look like they are dealing with. I think Trump was decisive in taking federal control of the National Guard, it protected federal property and people as they went about their duties and was a shot across the bows of the Californian libertarians Newsom and Bass." I agree a generalized discussion on MAGA is a bit off topic but I felt I needed to at least make a start on rebutting your conspiracy claim and to begin to put the current situation into a wider context. Gavin Newsom is a liberal not a libertarian. I don't know much about Karen Bass but I don't think she's a libertarian either. You seem to be getting the words liberal and libertarian mixed up. | |||
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"You’re edging into conspiracy territory when you, talk of a coordinated behind the scenes movement using Trump as a puppet, and suggesting a “government experiment” on states like California. I can't alter your perspective if this is what you truly believe! I can suggest you take a step back and remove the emotive parts such as tyranny when looking at the response by the federal government to a riot that threatened the laws of the country and its agents enforcing it. After that, if you still see the response by the government as tyranny then you are simply saying that illegal immigration should not be policed, and any attempt to do that will be met with force that should not be challenged. This is a very large subject area that isn't really on topic for this thread so I'll only outline a response. It's not based on emotion but close study of US politics over many years and as I've mentioned before my partner was a US citizen and she was intensely interested in politics and extremely proud of the US Constitution - something we discussed at length over many years. MAGA is not so much a coordinated movement as a coalition of disparate groups united only by a desire to reverse what they see as a liberal hegemony. And I described Trump as a frontman rather than a puppet. He has genuine power and believes himself to be the leader but he was effectively chosen. I'm sure many who helped him into power are beginning to regret it as he is perhaps more of a maniac than they bargained for. In the USA politics and money are intertwined in a way that's totally different to in the UK. You need a lot of money behind you to have any chance of getting into power. He got the backing of wealthy donars because they thought he was a good vehicle for their agenda. The capitalist wing of MAGA are looking for massive deregulation and minimal taxation. The aim is flat taxation and the dream is for there eventually to be only a consumption tax. The working class wing are hoping for the American dream to materialize. They were fed a story and it's turned out to be a fantasy. People at the bottom of the pile in the US are really struggling. Workers rights and healthcare are almost non-existent if you don't have a good job. Many blame it on some vague elite class or migrants and are susceptible to populist manipulation. MAGA rhetoric promises a return to the dream even though in practice Trump is taking money out of their pockets and giving it to billionaires in his Big Beautiful Bill. The Evangelical wing see liberals as a moral threat to their belief system. They see Trump as on their side even though they know he is morally corrupt himself. The Christian Nationalists overlap the religion thing with politics. Some of these people are so puritan that they want to ban contraception. Then we have the gun lobby. Crikey, I'll stop there even though I've only just scratched the surface. The tyranny I spoke of wasn't about the current situation were federal forces are being used in a state, but a more generalized tyranny where laws are effectively only to protect those in power and power comes through financial and physical might. Returning more to the subject at hand, I don't think immigration is seen as a major problem by most Californians. They are in a sense all recent immigrants themselves and compared with the rest of the USA many Californians think they are doing very well and if anything are paying to prop up ungrateful poor Republican states. The population density in California is about 250 people per square mile compared with England's 1,130 per square mile so that has something to do with it too." Things sound pretty grim for people in the US. On the plus side I suppose: GDP per capita: US $89,105 UK $63,661 Average annual wage: US $80,000 UK $54,000 To be in the top 5% of earners in the UK you need to be earning around £100k. In the US you’d have to be earning $500,000. Housing and utility costs are broadly equivalent as an average (slightly higher in the US), though as we know for petrol you’ll be paying $3.13 per gallon in the US compared to $6.59 per gallon in the UK. Of course in US politics as in the UK we have seen a significant switch around of the political parties, with poorer working class voters now tending to vote Republican (Conservative and Reform in the UK) and more affluent urban dwellers more inclined to vote Democrat (Labour, LibDem and Greens in the UK). As for Trump’s Big Beautiful Bill the jury is out on whether it will result in any significant cuts in government spending. Given the slim majority the Republicans have in Congress they are quite limited in what they can do. The broad brush Trump approach is levelling up international trade, revitalising domestic production, and tax cuts for working people eg through ending taxes on tips. Trump’s view on industrial policy would once have been fairly standard for Leftists (protecting domestic production even if it has to be subsidised or means higher domestic prices) but as per the switch outlined above the “sophisticated” urban Left has long since preferred the interests of internationalism, globalisation and supranationalism over maintaining domestic industrial output (we see the same in the UK of course). | |||
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"I appreciate the effort to unpack the state of US politics, but we’ve drifted from the original point. LAPD are now policing the streets, and other cities are facing riots that they look like they are dealing with. I think Trump was decisive in taking federal control of the National Guard, it protected federal property and people as they went about their duties and was a shot across the bows of the Californian libertarians Newsom and Bass. I agree a generalized discussion on MAGA is a bit off topic but I felt I needed to at least make a start on rebutting your conspiracy claim and to begin to put the current situation into a wider context. Gavin Newsom is a liberal not a libertarian. I don't know much about Karen Bass but I don't think she's a libertarian either. You seem to be getting the words liberal and libertarian mixed up. " Spot on, my mistake and a rather large one at that
However, the conspiracy element, I don't want to go down those rabbit holes.
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"LAPD making 'thousands' of arrests. Even the left wing Mayor of LA has had to bring in curfew to stop looting. Thank goodness Trump acted decisively against these 'peaceful' protests." According to the latest reporting LAPD have said they've arrestet about 378 people over the past four days, although this number will obviously rise. The curfew applies to approximately 0.2% of the area of city. The troops don't seem to be doing anything. They don't have legal authority to make arrests so if they are deployed the LAPD might have to protect them. | |||
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"LAPD making 'thousands' of arrests. Even the left wing Mayor of LA has had to bring in curfew to stop looting. Thank goodness Trump acted decisively against these 'peaceful' protests. According to the latest reporting LAPD have said they've arrestet about 378 people over the past four days, although this number will obviously rise. The curfew applies to approximately 0.2% of the area of city. The troops don't seem to be doing anything. They don't have legal authority to make arrests so if they are deployed the LAPD might have to protect them." So the protests were violent but have been contained in a small area, and the troops haven't been needed. Sounds like a pretty successful response to me given how previous riots have quickly got out of control. | |||
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"So the protests were violent but have been contained in a small area, and the troops haven't been needed. Sounds like a pretty successful response to me given how previous riots have quickly got out of control." As a previous poster observed... "Trump has a win/win set up. Riots stop: "I did it. Me. With my big, beautiful army!" Riots continue: "See? We need more firepower!"" | |||
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"So the protests were violent but have been contained in a small area, and the troops haven't been needed. Sounds like a pretty successful response to me given how previous riots have quickly got out of control. As a previous poster observed... Trump has a win/win set up. Riots stop: "I did it. Me. With my big, beautiful army!" Riots continue: "See? We need more firepower!" " That's a world view in which everything Trump does is part of some grand right wing plot that comes close to the conspiracy mentality that NotMe touched on. The reality is that in this case his actions appear to have been successful and should receive credit, just as in other areas such as Ukraine he should be criticised for his failures. | |||
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"That's a world view in which everything Trump does is part of some grand right wing plot that comes close to the conspiracy mentality that NotMe touched on." If you scroll up and see who that previous poster was, I think they might disagree with your characterization. | |||
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"More mostly peaceful riots. Well the only incident today is that one person tried to break the police line on a motorbike and they were rightly arrested Other than that… it’s been peaceful LAPD making 'thousands' of arrests. Even the left wing Mayor of LA has had to bring in curfew to stop looting. Thank goodness Trump acted decisively against these 'peaceful' protests." “Thousands of arrests” 14 on Friday 47 on Saturday 85 on Sunday The curfew isn’t for the whole of LA…. LA is a sprawling city made up of little cities… the metropolitan area of LA is about 650 square miles…. The curfew covers 1 square mile of the city Imagine saying everything within the m25 is under a curfew when in fact you are looking at basically a Liverpool Street-fenchurch street- bank triangle | |||
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"More mostly peaceful riots. Well the only incident today is that one person tried to break the police line on a motorbike and they were rightly arrested Other than that… it’s been peaceful LAPD making 'thousands' of arrests. Even the left wing Mayor of LA has had to bring in curfew to stop looting. Thank goodness Trump acted decisively against these 'peaceful' protests. “Thousands of arrests” 14 on Friday 47 on Saturday 85 on Sunday The curfew isn’t for the whole of LA…. LA is a sprawling city made up of little cities… the metropolitan area of LA is about 650 square miles…. The curfew covers 1 square mile of the city Imagine saying everything within the m25 is under a curfew when in fact you are looking at basically a Liverpool Street-fenchurch street- bank triangle " Let's agree on hundreds of arrests then. Can you explain why 100s of people would be arrested and any form of curfew be needed for what you described as peaceful protests ? | |||
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"More mostly peaceful riots. Well the only incident today is that one person tried to break the police line on a motorbike and they were rightly arrested Other than that… it’s been peaceful LAPD making 'thousands' of arrests. Even the left wing Mayor of LA has had to bring in curfew to stop looting. Thank goodness Trump acted decisively against these 'peaceful' protests. “Thousands of arrests” 14 on Friday 47 on Saturday 85 on Sunday The curfew isn’t for the whole of LA…. LA is a sprawling city made up of little cities… the metropolitan area of LA is about 650 square miles…. The curfew covers 1 square mile of the city Imagine saying everything within the m25 is under a curfew when in fact you are looking at basically a Liverpool Street-fenchurch street- bank triangle " There simply is no place in such a thread for accuracy.. Please amend it to reflect the maga lovers view..
one can't help but wonder why trump wasn't so quick to intervene when the Nations Capitol building was being stormed ..
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""I think it is important to point this out, not to minimize the vandalism and violence that has taken place there, it has been significant" Mayor Karen Bass on the mostly peaceful riots." Mostly peaceful looting. | |||
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"You are tying yourself up a little here.. what you have said above is why ICE and DHS are there, and why there was no support from local police as they carried out their duties. The government are right to protect its employees from attack and to support them in their duties. They can't rely on local police as they continue to carry out their duties due to sanctuary state law, hence the national guard. As far as I know the excuse Trump used to send in the National Guard and Marines was to stop the rioting. Are you suggesting that the intention is to integrate the military with law enforcement agencies to form joint teams that will raid places of business?" Actually this final paragraph is what the state of California are alleging the Trump administration intends to do in the in the filing made in the injunction to reverse the national guard powers Even though at this point the judge has not given California the injunction, he has given the trump administration until tomorrow (Thursday) that this is NOT the intention Otherwise all the national guard/ marines can do is stand outside the doors of the building, they won’t have local arrest powers | |||
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""I think it is important to point this out, not to minimize the vandalism and violence that has taken place there, it has been significant" Mayor Karen Bass on the mostly peaceful riots. Mostly peaceful looting. "Sadly as we've seen ourselves it seems to be the way things go (that doesn't make it right of course) that when there are protests some with no dog in the fight will use whatever to attack authority, smash stuff up and carry out other criminal acts such as looting.. One would hope as we saw here in 2011 and last year they are dealt with swiftly and firmly by the justice system.. | |||
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"Laughing at some wally who decided to dox ICE agents home addresses and locations where they are. Was all fun and games until somebody done it to him. Not the brightest seems a lot of these rioters are coming very unstuck. Seems very similar to the clowns on Jan 6. Guess they will have to wait for the next administration to pardon them. Some of the rioters who stormed the Capitol are now suing the Government for how they were treated by the justice system.. I suspect we will see the same over here following the Southport riots. Whether they win is a different matter. Possibly but in pardoning them trump has strengthened their position, that won't happen here .." Actually… this last paragraph is wrong.. Trump has actually weakened their position, because in pardoning them, in effect they have given up their 5th amendment rights over incriminating themselves, because they can’t be charged twice for what they have done! So actually they will have to tell the truth… or endanger themselves with perjury charges | |||
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" Let's agree on hundreds of arrests then. Can you explain why 100s of people would be arrested and any form of curfew be needed for what you described as peaceful protests ?" Because most of it is to do with vandalism and looting… not the protest The one place where we will agree… vandalism and looting.. people taking advantage… they should get absolutely what they deserve! | |||
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"Laughing at some wally who decided to dox ICE agents home addresses and locations where they are. Was all fun and games until somebody done it to him. Not the brightest seems a lot of these rioters are coming very unstuck. Seems very similar to the clowns on Jan 6. Guess they will have to wait for the next administration to pardon them. Some of the rioters who stormed the Capitol are now suing the Government for how they were treated by the justice system.. I suspect we will see the same over here following the Southport riots. Whether they win is a different matter. Possibly but in pardoning them trump has strengthened their position, that won't happen here .. Actually… this last paragraph is wrong.. Trump has actually weakened their position, because in pardoning them, in effect they have given up their 5th amendment rights over incriminating themselves, because they can’t be charged twice for what they have done! So actually they will have to tell the truth… or endanger themselves with perjury charges " Cheers for that Fabio, interesting.. | |||
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" Let's agree on hundreds of arrests then. Can you explain why 100s of people would be arrested and any form of curfew be needed for what you described as peaceful protests ? Because most of it is to do with vandalism and looting… not the protest The one place where we will agree… vandalism and looting.. people taking advantage… they should get absolutely what they deserve! " | |||
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" Let's agree on hundreds of arrests then. Can you explain why 100s of people would be arrested and any form of curfew be needed for what you described as peaceful protests ? Because most of it is to do with vandalism and looting… not the protest The one place where we will agree… vandalism and looting.. people taking advantage… they should get absolutely what they deserve! "
Have been on protests here and been on duty when it's turned into antisocial behaviour, criminality and for some an excuse to attack authorities..
Even on peaceful protests it's well known that 'rent a mob' are always lurking about to parasite themselves onto and try to kick off..
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"California and LA in particular are always too slow off the mark, this is not the first time.... Their own state sanctuary laws, leave them wide open when federal immigration enforcement begins. Then, when things escalate, they turn around and complain about federal intervention, you can't make this up The state ties the hands of local law enforcement, refuses to cooperate with ICE and DHS, and then act as though it is all a plot and get outraged when the federal government steps in to enforce the laws, protect staff and buildings. I would be interested to know if anyone supports the idea that the US government should not be able to arrest, detain and deport illegal immigrants who are in the country working or not. " A couple of issues here…. 1) ICE and DHS are supposed to work in conjunction with local agencies But because the LaPD doesn’t actively help with raids, they are getting no notification of when and where raids are happening! They are finding out at the same point that they need any assistance! 2) the said the point of the action was to detain violent criminals… if that was the action people would not have any issue But let see where ICE have been turning up… the violent den of sin that is the home depot! Gardeners and labourers…. A seamstress factory! I am sure all them women were armed to the teeth with needles!!! So … let’s look at where they are trying to “honeypot people” 3)They have been turning up at senior graduations and waiting outside schools … they turned up at kindergartens on the excuse of “children health checkups “ to lure parents into turning up They are waiting outside immigration offices where people have been turning out for checks ins as part of the asylum application, people who have been turning up for years, never missed appointments People going through the mandated process as instructed by the court… and giving them no due process! Various organisations are now telling people to stay home, they are instilling fear into people | |||
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"California and LA in particular are always too slow off the mark, this is not the first time.... Their own state sanctuary laws, leave them wide open when federal immigration enforcement begins. Then, when things escalate, they turn around and complain about federal intervention, you can't make this up! The state ties the hands of local law enforcement, refuses to cooperate with ICE and DHS, and then act as though it is all a plot and get outraged when the federal government steps in to enforce the laws, protect staff and buildings. I would be interested to know if anyone supports the idea that the US government should not be able to arrest, detain and deport illegal immigrants who are in the country working or not. " I would imagine there's a large amount of people on the left who think that, partly for humanitarian reasons, partly for an ideological belief in open borders. | |||
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"California and LA in particular are always too slow off the mark, this is not the first time.... Their own state sanctuary laws, leave them wide open when federal immigration enforcement begins. Then, when things escalate, they turn around and complain about federal intervention, you can't make this up The state ties the hands of local law enforcement, refuses to cooperate with ICE and DHS, and then act as though it is all a plot and get outraged when the federal government steps in to enforce the laws, protect staff and buildings. I would be interested to know if anyone supports the idea that the US government should not be able to arrest, detain and deport illegal immigrants who are in the country working or not. A couple of issues here…. 1) ICE and DHS are supposed to work in conjunction with local agencies But because the LaPD doesn’t actively help with raids, they are getting no notification of when and where raids are happening! They are finding out at the same point that they need any assistance! 2) the said the point of the action was to detain violent criminals… if that was the action people would not have any issue But let see where ICE have been turning up… the violent den of sin that is the home depot! Gardeners and labourers…. A seamstress factory! I am sure all them women were armed to the teeth with needles!!! So … let’s look at where they are trying to “honeypot people” 3)They have been turning up at senior graduations and waiting outside schools … they turned up at kindergartens on the excuse of “children health checkups “ to lure parents into turning up They are waiting outside immigration offices where people have been turning out for checks ins as part of the asylum application, people who have been turning up for years, never missed appointments People going through the mandated process as instructed by the court… and giving them no due process! Various organisations are now telling people to stay home, they are instilling fear into people " You’ve highlighted some emotive examples, however illegal immigration is illegal, and enforcement of immigration law is not a nice to have at a federal level. If LAPD can't cooperate because of the state law, of course they’re going to be left out of planning. You can’t demand to be kept in the loop after you’ve taken yourself out of the loop. That’s not how things work in the grown up world. Deportation and immigration laws don't only apply to people who are violent. That’s the emotional spin and it is often used to soften the debate, "why don't you go after the real criminals". Turning up at schools, hospitals, or immigration offices are where the individuals who have been identified are known to be regularly, what do you expect them to do throw a dart in a map and cross their fingers. Come on you can't really be calling this out as being wrong when they are tracking down people
The state of California (apt) have created the perfect storm for all of the above, they have chosen to not police immigration to the point it is a sanctuary for illegals. Not a good look but lets blame Trump. | |||
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"One worrying aspect is the number of journalists who appear to have been targeted by the police for just doing their job. AP say over two dozen reporters have been either arrested or "roughed up". According to USA Today Lauren Tomasi, NIck Stern, Toby Canham and Ryanne Mena have all been shot with nonlethal weapons by the police. Maybe these were accidents but if so the police need to take more care. It's important that the press have the opportunity to witness and report on events. " This is a state issue, not a federal one. I wonder what Bass and Newsom have to say about journalists being injured. They were very quick to condemn tear gas and rubber bullet use by federally controlled National Guard on the rioters. | |||
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"There are also Constitutional limits on what States can do. If States intentionally obstruct the legal process then Federal intervention is absolutely justified and necessary, as happened when Southern States refused to implement Civil Rights laws or protect black citizens. Yes, when the Supreme Court judged that racial segregation in schools was unconstitutional and the Governor of Arkansas ordered the Arkansas National Guard to stop black children going to Little Rock Central High, President Eisenhower used emergency powers to protect nine children and let them go to school. " I am impressed You know your history.. but it actually isn’t the case of the Little Rock 9 the last time when it was invoked It was Lyndon b Johnson when the then governor of Alabama, George Wallace, refused to protect black civil rights marchers including church leader Martin Luther King walking across the state culminating in the events in Selma, Alabama | |||
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"There are also Constitutional limits on what States can do. If States intentionally obstruct the legal process then Federal intervention is absolutely justified and necessary, as happened when Southern States refused to implement Civil Rights laws or protect black citizens. Yes, when the Supreme Court judged that racial segregation in schools was unconstitutional and the Governor of Arkansas ordered the Arkansas National Guard to stop black children going to Little Rock Central High, President Eisenhower used emergency powers to protect nine children and let them go to school. I am impressed You know your history.. but it actually isn’t the case of the Little Rock 9 the last time when it was invoked It was Lyndon b Johnson when the then governor of Alabama, George Wallace, refused to protect black civil rights marchers including church leader Martin Luther King walking across the state culminating in the events in Selma, Alabama " There's a brilliant film called Selma about those events. The English actor Tom Wilkinson is very good as LBJ. | |||
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" As a previous poster observed... Trump has a win/win set up. Riots stop: "I did it. Me. With my big, beautiful army!" Riots continue: "See? We need more firepower!" That's a world view in which everything Trump does is part of some grand right wing plot that comes close to the conspiracy mentality that NotMe touched on. The reality is that in this case his actions appear to have been successful and should receive credit, just as in other areas such as Ukraine he should be criticised for his failures." Nope. It's a world view in which Trump is a cynic who cares about self aggrandisement and "winning". There's no plot here, the reasons are much more simple. Wouldn't you agree that he's got a win/win situation here? | |||
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"One worrying aspect is the number of journalists who appear to have been targeted by the police for just doing their job. AP say over two dozen reporters have been either arrested or "roughed up". According to USA Today Lauren Tomasi, NIck Stern, Toby Canham and Ryanne Mena have all been shot with nonlethal weapons by the police. Maybe these were accidents but if so the police need to take more care. It's important that the press have the opportunity to witness and report on events. " Yep… Australia are not happy with the Lauren tomato incident as the police knew she was reporting and deliberately targeted her! , the one the British journalist took on the leg was gruesome! But yep.. reminds me of the George Floyd protests in Washington when DHS went after everyone, especially journos! | |||
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" As a previous poster observed... Trump has a win/win set up. Riots stop: "I did it. Me. With my big, beautiful army!" Riots continue: "See? We need more firepower!" That's a world view in which everything Trump does is part of some grand right wing plot that comes close to the conspiracy mentality that NotMe touched on. The reality is that in this case his actions appear to have been successful and should receive credit, just as in other areas such as Ukraine he should be criticised for his failures. Nope. It's a world view in which Trump is a cynic who cares about self aggrandisement and "winning". There's no plot here, the reasons are much more simple. Wouldn't you agree that he's got a win/win situation here?" I think Trump's guiding lights are impulse and chaos - he is one of the least strategic politicians I've ever known. If the National Guard has massively inflamed the riots as many predicted then that would have been damaging to Trump whether he'd sent in more forces or not. But they didn't so its a moot point. | |||
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"One worrying aspect is the number of journalists who appear to have been targeted by the police for just doing their job. AP say over two dozen reporters have been either arrested or "roughed up". According to USA Today Lauren Tomasi, NIck Stern, Toby Canham and Ryanne Mena have all been shot with nonlethal weapons by the police. Maybe these were accidents but if so the police need to take more care. It's important that the press have the opportunity to witness and report on events. Yep… Australia are not happy with the Lauren tomato incident as the police knew she was reporting and deliberately targeted her! , the one the British journalist took on the leg was gruesome! But yep.. reminds me of the George Floyd protests in Washington when DHS went after everyone, especially journos! " Really? It was LAPD not DHS that shot the journalists. | |||
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"You’ve highlighted some emotive examples, however illegal immigration is illegal, and enforcement of immigration law is not a nice to have at a federal level. [...]" What you constantly seem to be saying is that it doesn't matter what Californian's think and all that matters is the will of the federal executive. I look at it as an argument about subsidiarity - the principle that whenever possible decisions should be made at the lowest level of government so that local people have as much control over their environment as possible. This is similar to the sovereignty argument put forward by Brexiteers for leaving the EU (even though they ignored the fact that of a great deal of subsidiarity exists for member states). I thought you were for Brexit so it seems surprising that you are pushing so much for the centralization of power in Washington. If Californians democratically elect representatives that implement sanctuary status what's the problem? California is perhaps the most successful state in the whole of the USA and immigration isn't a real problem - what's that old saying? "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". I could understand it if California was a drain on the rest of the country, but the opposite is the case. | |||
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"You’ve highlighted some emotive examples, however illegal immigration is illegal, and enforcement of immigration law is not a nice to have at a federal level. [...] What you constantly seem to be saying is that it doesn't matter what Californian's think and all that matters is the will of the federal executive. I look at it as an argument about subsidiarity - the principle that whenever possible decisions should be made at the lowest level of government so that local people have as much control over their environment as possible. This is similar to the sovereignty argument put forward by Brexiteers for leaving the EU (even though they ignored the fact that of a great deal of subsidiarity exists for member states). I thought you were for Brexit so it seems surprising that you are pushing so much for the centralization of power in Washington. If Californians democratically elect representatives that implement sanctuary status what's the problem? California is perhaps the most successful state in the whole of the USA and immigration isn't a real problem - what's that old saying? "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". I could understand it if California was a drain on the rest of the country, but the opposite is the case." What you said works if California has border checks to other states and living in California long enough gives US citizenship to everyone. But that's not how it works today, immigration impacts the whole country and not just California. | |||
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"You’ve highlighted some emotive examples, however illegal immigration is illegal, and enforcement of immigration law is not a nice to have at a federal level. [...] What you constantly seem to be saying is that it doesn't matter what Californian's think and all that matters is the will of the federal executive. I look at it as an argument about subsidiarity - the principle that whenever possible decisions should be made at the lowest level of government so that local people have as much control over their environment as possible. This is similar to the sovereignty argument put forward by Brexiteers for leaving the EU (even though they ignored the fact that of a great deal of subsidiarity exists for member states). I thought you were for Brexit so it seems surprising that you are pushing so much for the centralization of power in Washington. If Californians democratically elect representatives that implement sanctuary status what's the problem? California is perhaps the most successful state in the whole of the USA and immigration isn't a real problem - what's that old saying? "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". I could understand it if California was a drain on the rest of the country, but the opposite is the case." You would have a point if immigration policy and enforcement were a state matter. But they are not. Immigration is a federal responsibility under US law, and that’s why I keep repeating it, because without recognising that, the events in LA don’t make sense. Also, I was not for Brexit, in fact I was dead against. I have simply moved on and look forward not back. | |||
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"This is a state issue, not a federal one. I wonder what Bass and Newsom have to say about journalists being injured. They were very quick to condemn tear gas and rubber bullet use by federally controlled National Guard on the rioters. " Have the National Guard used tear gas and rubber bullets in LA this week? I thought it was only the LAPD. | |||
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"I am impressed You know your history.. but it actually isn’t the case of the Little Rock 9 the last time when it was invoked" I didn't say it was. Emergency powers have been used several times, I just chose that instance because it most succinctly contrasts the motives of previous Presidents with the current one. | |||
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"This is a state issue, not a federal one. I wonder what Bass and Newsom have to say about journalists being injured. They were very quick to condemn tear gas and rubber bullet use by federally controlled National Guard on the rioters. Have the National Guard used tear gas and rubber bullets in LA this week? I thought it was only the LAPD." Video at the bottom of the BBC news article Governor calls out the use of tear gas, flash bangs and rubber bullets. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn7z45pyrvvo | |||
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"You’ve highlighted some emotive examples, however illegal immigration is illegal, and enforcement of immigration law is not a nice to have at a federal level. [...] What you constantly seem to be saying is that it doesn't matter what Californian's think and all that matters is the will of the federal executive. I look at it as an argument about subsidiarity - the principle that whenever possible decisions should be made at the lowest level of government so that local people have as much control over their environment as possible. This is similar to the sovereignty argument put forward by Brexiteers for leaving the EU (even though they ignored the fact that of a great deal of subsidiarity exists for member states). I thought you were for Brexit so it seems surprising that you are pushing so much for the centralization of power in Washington. If Californians democratically elect representatives that implement sanctuary status what's the problem? California is perhaps the most successful state in the whole of the USA and immigration isn't a real problem - what's that old saying? "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". I could understand it if California was a drain on the rest of the country, but the opposite is the case." The exact same arguments were used by the Southern States when Washington forced them to abandon Jim Crow laws. If States could simply ignore federal laws that their voters didn't like then de-segregation would never have happened in the South. | |||
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"Video at the bottom of the BBC news article Governor calls out the use of tear gas, flash bangs and rubber bullets. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn7z45pyrvvo" I see what you mean about that video because it could be interpreted as Newsom saying that the National Guard used tear gas and rubber bullets but AFAIK they haven't, it was the LAPD not the National Guard. Newsom is blaming Trump for fanning the flames by deploying the National Guard but the police had already used rubber bullets etc on the 6th before Trump's action on the 7th so his words were clumsy although not actually dishonest as far as I can see. | |||
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"The exact same arguments were used by the Southern States when Washington forced them to abandon Jim Crow laws. If States could simply ignore federal laws that their voters didn't like then de-segregation would never have happened in the South." A fair point if you think that tolerance of law-abiding undocumented immigrants is on par with support for racial segregation. | |||
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"The exact same arguments were used by the Southern States when Washington forced them to abandon Jim Crow laws. If States could simply ignore federal laws that their voters didn't like then de-segregation would never have happened in the South. A fair point if you think that tolerance of law-abiding undocumented immigrants is on par with support for racial segregation." Anyone who has entered the US without legal authority is not law abiding by definition; the use of 'undocumented' is just semantics to evade a self evident fact. No, I don't think they are morally compatible, but that's irrelevant to the principle of State v Federal powers. Your argument is that if a majority in a particular State support a policy this should override Federal law, therefore by extension you would have to support those Southern States whose populations rejected de-segregation. | |||
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"Anyone who has entered the US without legal authority is not law abiding by definition; the use of 'undocumented' is just semantics to evade a self evident fact." The USA is still a place (at least at the moment) where someone is considered law-abiding until it is proven different by due process. There are several reasons why someone might be undocumented. "No, I don't think they are morally compatible, but that's irrelevant to the principle of State v Federal powers. Your argument is that if a majority in a particular State support a policy this should override Federal law, therefore by extension you would have to support those Southern States whose populations rejected de-segregation." If my case was based on just that argument then maybe, but it isn't. Subsidiarity and democracy are important but there are other arguments too such as the 10th Amendment and the fact that santuary status is legal. Ultimately if the law said that something as deeply immoral as racial segregation was to be inforced then I would not obey the law. | |||
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"Anyone who has entered the US without legal authority is not law abiding by definition; the use of 'undocumented' is just semantics to evade a self evident fact. The USA is still a place (at least at the moment) where someone is considered law-abiding until it is proven different by due process. There are several reasons why someone might be undocumented. No, I don't think they are morally compatible, but that's irrelevant to the principle of State v Federal powers. Your argument is that if a majority in a particular State support a policy this should override Federal law, therefore by extension you would have to support those Southern States whose populations rejected de-segregation. If my case was based on just that argument then maybe, but it isn't. Subsidiarity and democracy are important but there are other arguments too such as the 10th Amendment and the fact that santuary status is legal. Ultimately if the law said that something as deeply immoral as racial segregation was to be inforced then I would not obey the law. " Jim Crow laws were just as legal as the sanctuary city laws, but neither gave States the right to override Federal areas of authority. | |||
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"Jim Crow laws were just as legal as the sanctuary city laws, but neither gave States the right to override Federal areas of authority." Sanctuary status isn't preventing the application of federal law, it's just saying that state agencies will not cooperate with ICE. It's legal and it's moral. And as far as I can see it's practical too as undocumented immigrants aren't a real problem. Trump is just using this issue as a tool to further divide the nation. | |||
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"Jim Crow laws were just as legal as the sanctuary city laws, but neither gave States the right to override Federal areas of authority. Sanctuary status isn't preventing the application of federal law, it's just saying that state agencies will not cooperate with ICE. It's legal and it's moral. And as far as I can see it's practical too as undocumented immigrants aren't a real problem. Trump is just using this issue as a tool to further divide the nation. " Thanks for the replies but I'll stop now as I don't think your arguments are consistent or sustainable and we're going in circles. | |||
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"Getting back to the original point, Is the US imploding within due to Donald Trump? Potentially, yes. He is behaving like a petulant toddler that doesn't get their way. Except he is POTUS and believes he has complete control, he can ignore the constitution and there will be no consequences. Is he delivering what he promised? Maybe. How many of the deported people have been violent criminals? -That's what people voted on, not the mass deportation of undocumented migrants who contribute to the American economy. " Opinion polling has consistently shown over 50% support for deporting all illegal migrants, not only violent criminals. The issue was probably the main reason why Trump won the 24 election. Do you have any sources for the claim that mass illegal migration benefits the US economy? | |||
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"Getting back to the original point, Is the US imploding within due to Donald Trump? Potentially, yes. He is behaving like a petulant toddler that doesn't get their way. Except he is POTUS and believes he has complete control, he can ignore the constitution and there will be no consequences. Is he delivering what he promised? Maybe. How many of the deported people have been violent criminals? -That's what people voted on, not the mass deportation of undocumented migrants who contribute to the American economy. Opinion polling has consistently shown over 50% support for deporting all illegal migrants, not only violent criminals. The issue was probably the main reason why Trump won the 24 election. Do you have any sources for the claim that mass illegal migration benefits the US economy?" You seem to like to take what somebody says and turn it around, rather than debating the point. By the same token, are you saying that undocumented migrants have no positive impact on the US economy? | |||
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"Getting back to the original point, Is the US imploding within due to Donald Trump? Potentially, yes. He is behaving like a petulant toddler that doesn't get their way. Except he is POTUS and believes he has complete control, he can ignore the constitution and there will be no consequences. Is he delivering what he promised? Maybe. How many of the deported people have been violent criminals? -That's what people voted on, not the mass deportation of undocumented migrants who contribute to the American economy. Opinion polling has consistently shown over 50% support for deporting all illegal migrants, not only violent criminals. The issue was probably the main reason why Trump won the 24 election. Do you have any sources for the claim that mass illegal migration benefits the US economy? You seem to like to take what somebody says and turn it around, rather than debating the point. By the same token, are you saying that undocumented migrants have no positive impact on the US economy? " I've made no claims either way, I imagine its a complicated issue, but you've made a clear statement. It's up to you if you evidence this or not. You also made a statement that most people voted on deporting violent criminals, not illegal migrants, and there is clear polling evidence to show that is false. | |||
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"Getting back to the original point, Is the US imploding within due to Donald Trump? Potentially, yes. He is behaving like a petulant toddler that doesn't get their way. Except he is POTUS and believes he has complete control, he can ignore the constitution and there will be no consequences. Is he delivering what he promised? Maybe. How many of the deported people have been violent criminals? -That's what people voted on, not the mass deportation of undocumented migrants who contribute to the American economy. Opinion polling has consistently shown over 50% support for deporting all illegal migrants, not only violent criminals. The issue was probably the main reason why Trump won the 24 election. Do you have any sources for the claim that mass illegal migration benefits the US economy? You seem to like to take what somebody says and turn it around, rather than debating the point. By the same token, are you saying that undocumented migrants have no positive impact on the US economy? I've made no claims either way, I imagine its a complicated issue, but you've made a clear statement. It's up to you if you evidence this or not. You also made a statement that most people voted on deporting violent criminals, not illegal migrants, and there is clear polling evidence to show that is false." I actually called them undocumented migrants. The original soundbite from Trump for the election campaign was to deport the violent criminal undocumented migrants, but once elected, has moved his goalposts to deport any undocumented migrants. It is a very complex issue. And we'll never know true figures due to the people targeted being undocumented. What is clear is that the current POTUS has no regard for the constitution and believes he can implement any of his ideas without impunity. Reports are circulating that more specialist units are about to be deployed to another 5 cities. I wonder what the master plan could be? | |||
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" The original soundbite from Trump for the election campaign was to deport the violent criminal undocumented migrants, but once elected, has moved his goalposts to deport any undocumented migrants. " This is not true. Trump's rhetoric has always been about deport "millions of undocumented immigrants". Posting excerpt from a website called PIIE comparing Trump and Harris's immigration policy proposals in their election campaign. This is Trump's proposal: "Deports approximately 11 million migrants deemed unauthorized from the United States in a multiyear military campaign. (Some proposed actions that could be classified under this policy label remove legal status for people who are lawfully present and are listed in separate tables below.) To carry out mass deportations, this policy proposal would deputize local police officers and National Guard soldiers voluntarily contributed by Republican states, reassign other federal agents to ICE, and move "thousands of troops currently stationed overseas" to the US-Mexico border. To speed up the pace of deportations, this policy proposal would modify ICE deportation procedures to allow for workplace raids (rather than exclusively individual arrests)." He is basically doing what he promised before the elections. No goalpost has been moved here. | |||
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" Anyone who has entered the US without legal authority is not law abiding by definition; the use of 'undocumented' is just semantics to evade a self evident fact. " I wanted to pick out this piece by Leo because its not true as such If someone is claiming asylum or any protected status for example (for example someone coming from Haiti or Venezuela or Cuba, would not be sent back and would be given temporary protection status) then as part of the ongoing rules would be that you would need to check in with immigration services… be that monthly, quarterly, 6 monthly or annuallly Now this might surprise you in that you are looking at it thru uk eyes where people go missing as soon as they turn up on uk shores…… but in the us… its somewhere close to 95-97 percent of people show up for their immigration appointments And this is where ICE and DHS have been waiting in people and sending them to detention centres to deport rather than giving the system time to run its course and giving that person due process I thought it was an important thing to correct | |||
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"... as far as I can see it's practical too as undocumented immigrants aren't a real problem. Trump is just using this issue as a tool to further divide the nation." If most of America believes that undocumented immigrants aren't a problem, how was Trump able to gain votes by promising to deport illegal immigrants? | |||
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"Getting back to the original point, Is the US imploding within due to Donald Trump? Potentially, yes. He is behaving like a petulant toddler that doesn't get their way. Except he is POTUS and believes he has complete control, he can ignore the constitution and there will be no consequences. Is he delivering what he promised? Maybe. How many of the deported people have been violent criminals? -That's what people voted on, not the mass deportation of undocumented migrants who contribute to the American economy. Opinion polling has consistently shown over 50% support for deporting all illegal migrants, not only violent criminals. The issue was probably the main reason why Trump won the 24 election. Do you have any sources for the claim that mass illegal migration benefits the US economy?" Oh I can give you a huge two straight off the top of my head Agrifoods…… guess who tend to do the picking.. and the packing Construction… hence the home depot connection…. Things don’t tend to build themselves | |||
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"https://www.axios.com/2024/11/29/trump-deport-immigrants-criminals " Doesn't say he was going to deport ONLY the criminals. He has been talking about removing "undocumented" immigrants right from his first election campaign. | |||
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"https://www.axios.com/2024/11/29/trump-deport-immigrants-criminals Doesn't say he was going to deport ONLY the criminals. He has been talking about removing "undocumented" immigrants right from his first election campaign." He said he would prioritise them. I don't think he's prioritising the most dangerous and violent criminals. And yes, that's my opinion. Not fact. I can see echoes of last century, except the mass deportation is the ethnic cleansing of a country, instead of genocide. However, that country was built on the oppression of the indigenous people and is made up of migrants from many countries around the world. | |||
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"Getting back to the original point, Is the US imploding within due to Donald Trump? Potentially, yes. He is behaving like a petulant toddler that doesn't get their way. Except he is POTUS and believes he has complete control, he can ignore the constitution and there will be no consequences. Is he delivering what he promised? Maybe. How many of the deported people have been violent criminals? -That's what people voted on, not the mass deportation of undocumented migrants who contribute to the American economy. Opinion polling has consistently shown over 50% support for deporting all illegal migrants, not only violent criminals. The issue was probably the main reason why Trump won the 24 election. Do you have any sources for the claim that mass illegal migration benefits the US economy? Oh I can give you a huge two straight off the top of my head Agrifoods…… guess who tend to do the picking.. and the packing Construction… hence the home depot connection…. Things don’t tend to build themselves" I don't doubt that those industries employing illegal/undocumented migrants on low wages benefit ! Whether the economy on the whole benefits is a complex question that would be too off topic to discuss in detail. | |||
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"... as far as I can see it's practical too as undocumented immigrants aren't a real problem. Trump is just using this issue as a tool to further divide the nation. If most of America believes that undocumented immigrants aren't a problem, how was Trump able to gain votes by promising to deport illegal immigrants?" The US has always had high levels of immigration, and yes the country has been built on immigration. But the levels of illegal migration under Biden (at least 2million a year) were unprecedented and have placed huge economic and social pressure on many States. If Biden had got a grip on the issue its unlikely Trump would have won in 24, even against Harris. | |||
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"https://www.axios.com/2024/11/29/trump-deport-immigrants-criminals Doesn't say he was going to deport ONLY the criminals. He has been talking about removing "undocumented" immigrants right from his first election campaign. He said he would prioritise them. I don't think he's prioritising the most dangerous and violent criminals. And yes, that's my opinion. Not fact. I can see echoes of last century, except the mass deportation is the ethnic cleansing of a country, instead of genocide. However, that country was built on the oppression of the indigenous people and is made up of migrants from many countries around the world. " If deporting illegal immigrants is ethnic cleansing, so many countries are doing ethnic cleansing today. In US it looks big because the previous administration led in millions of people. | |||
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