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Palestine Action
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"The Met police tweeted this earlier this weekend: Palestine Action has now been proscribed by the UK Government and expressing support for them is a criminal offence. This includes chanting, wearing clothing or displaying articles such as flags, signs or logos." I doubt much will be done other than looking at their membership a little more closely. Most likely occurrence will be a new group with a similar name and the same game plan come into being. | |||
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"The UK RAF has run 518 sortees for the IDF identifying targets to bomb. 55,000 deaths in our name. We’ve picked a side. Criminal offence speaking up for Palestine. " Does that give criminals the right to break into RAF bases ? | |||
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"It’s not a criminal offence to show support for the people of Palestine, so no change there. What is illegal is supporting or engaging in the actions of groups like Palestine Action, who have broken into military bases, damaged military vehicles, and targeted companies involved who have defence contracts with Israel. Chants like “Death to the IDF” as seen at Glastonbury have crossed a line from protest into incitement. When that kind of rhetoric spreads across the world, as we have now seen in places like Melbourne, it is evidence that groups such as these fuel extremism rather than dialogue. " 
Now it's seen as a crime to speak up.
Meanwhile British companies with the support of the British government support and supply the IDF committing the genocide while the majority of the media directs everyone's ire one someone saying something at Glastonbury and someone throwing paint on a plane. | |||
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" Now it's seen as a crime to speak up. " Just no. | |||
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"It’s not a criminal offence to show support for the people of Palestine, so no change there. What is illegal is supporting or engaging in the actions of groups like Palestine Action, who have broken into military bases, damaged military vehicles, and targeted companies involved who have defence contracts with Israel. Chants like “Death to the IDF” as seen at Glastonbury have crossed a line from protest into incitement. When that kind of rhetoric spreads across the world, as we have now seen in places like Melbourne, it is evidence that groups such as these fuel extremism rather than dialogue.
Now it's seen as a crime to speak up.
Meanwhile British companies with the support of the British government support and supply the IDF committing the genocide while the majority of the media directs everyone's ire one someone saying something at Glastonbury and someone throwing paint on a plane."A crime to speak up? Have the Glastonbury incidents triggered any arrests? Yet counter protesters are arrested all the time for public order offences. It’s not a case of we can only pick one crime to focus on. But we can only control what happens on our soil. Yes pressure should be put on Isreal to allow more aid in, but also Hamas should stop trying to control that aid, in doing so they make it a target. The UK government has to ensure the safety of our military assets, no matter what they are used for. Nobody has said people can’t protest legally. But let me ask you, has 18 months of almost daily marches had any impact? I’m not saying don’t protest, I’m just saying that constantly doing the same thing and expecting to get a different outcome is futile. I personally think anyone who needs dozens of loud hailers to get a message across, needs to look at their message. That type of protest never gets my attention, even if I agree with the message. Also most reasonable people know that this conflict has two sides and despite how heavy handed one side is being at the moment, the other side has also been heavy handed very recently. This isn’t as black and white as you make it out to be. The big picture is very complex with both side not willing to go anywhere near middle ground. But yes the fighting should stop and the hostages should all be released, dead or alive. | |||
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"It’s not a criminal offence to show support for the people of Palestine, so no change there. What is illegal is supporting or engaging in the actions of groups like Palestine Action, who have broken into military bases, damaged military vehicles, and targeted companies involved who have defence contracts with Israel. Chants like “Death to the IDF” as seen at Glastonbury have crossed a line from protest into incitement. When that kind of rhetoric spreads across the world, as we have now seen in places like Melbourne, it is evidence that groups such as these fuel extremism rather than dialogue.
Now it's seen as a crime to speak up.
Meanwhile British companies with the support of the British government support and supply the IDF committing the genocide while the majority of the media directs everyone's ire one someone saying something at Glastonbury and someone throwing paint on a plane."It is not a crime to speak up, it is a crime to incite hate and violence, and cause criminal damage by breaking into a UK military base, damaging UK military hardware. Can you separate those actions from legal actions? | |||
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" it is a crime to .... cause criminal damage by breaking into a UK military base, damaging UK military hardware. Can you separate those actions from legal actions? " yet to be tested by the court and taking into account a number of similar actions over the years, most notably by the Seeds of Hope Ploughshares Group, the legality or illegality of the latest action in question is very far indeed from being proven, no matter how much the usual rabidly mouthfrothing far right types choose to believe in their fantasy of guilty before being proven innocent | |||
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"Meanwhile British companies with the support of the British government support and supply the IDF committing the genocide while the majority of the media directs everyone's ire one someone saying something at Glastonbury and someone throwing paint on a plane." It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, it still isn't a genocide unless you change the definition of genocide to suit an ideology. | |||
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"and probably all that happens is the new protest group 'PALESTINE needs ACTION' is born or something similar" I believe there is a clause in the act that prevents groups reforming with a new name. | |||
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"and probably all that happens is the new protest group 'PALESTINE needs ACTION' is born or something similar I believe there is a clause in the act that prevents groups reforming with a new name." utterly unenforcable despite the wishful thinking of nutjobs | |||
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"It’s not a criminal offence to show support for the people of Palestine, so no change there. What is illegal is supporting or engaging in the actions of groups like Palestine Action, who have broken into military bases, damaged military vehicles, and targeted companies involved who have defence contracts with Israel. Chants like “Death to the IDF” as seen at Glastonbury have crossed a line from protest into incitement. When that kind of rhetoric spreads across the world, as we have now seen in places like Melbourne, it is evidence that groups such as these fuel extremism rather than dialogue.
Now it's seen as a crime to speak up.
Meanwhile British companies with the support of the British government support and supply the IDF committing the genocide while the majority of the media directs everyone's ire one someone saying something at Glastonbury and someone throwing paint on a plane.
It is not a crime to speak up, it is a crime to incite hate and violence, and cause criminal damage by breaking into a UK military base, damaging UK military hardware.
Can you separate those actions from legal actions?
"See. It's 100% working. | |||
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" Now it's seen as a crime to speak up. Meanwhile British companies with the support of the British government support and supply the IDF committing the genocide while the majority of the media directs everyone's ire one someone saying something at Glastonbury and someone throwing paint on a plane." You're still around dispite incessant "speaking out" so I'm guessing your wrong | |||
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"The Times: …says that Palestine Action proscription “goes too far”. “The antics of such groups are frequently criminal, but branding them acts of terrorism was a misuse of the law” “Its members are qualitatively different from those of al-Qaeda” Fwiw, I don’t condone throwing paint over military planes, but I also think the British Government need to start listening to polls which show support for this Israeli regime & what it is doing is sliding big time. " Spray painting those planes is criminal damage Flying them over Gaza identifying targets to bomb seems to be lawful | |||
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"The Times: …says that Palestine Action proscription “goes too far”. “The antics of such groups are frequently criminal, but branding them acts of terrorism was a misuse of the law” “Its members are qualitatively different from those of al-Qaeda” Fwiw, I don’t condone throwing paint over military planes, but I also think the British Government need to start listening to polls which show support for this Israeli regime & what it is doing is sliding big time. Spray painting those planes is criminal damage Flying them over Gaza identifying targets to bomb seems to be lawful " Yes & I get that, I really do. However, it can’t be condoned otherwise you are giving people carte blanche to do what the feck they want to. As frustrating as it is, the law has to be obeyed otherwise you are condoning anarchy. | |||
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"The Times: …says that Palestine Action proscription “goes too far”. “The antics of such groups are frequently criminal, but branding them acts of terrorism was a misuse of the law” “Its members are qualitatively different from those of al-Qaeda” Fwiw, I don’t condone throwing paint over military planes, but I also think the British Government need to start listening to polls which show support for this Israeli regime & what it is doing is sliding big time. Spray painting those planes is criminal damage Flying them over Gaza identifying targets to bomb seems to be lawful Yes & I get that, I really do. However, it can’t be condoned otherwise you are giving people carte blanche to do what the feck they want to. As frustrating as it is, the law has to be obeyed otherwise you are condoning anarchy. " Exactly. Nobody is silencing people who don't do illegal stuff. Groups like Palestinian Action need to exist - there needs to be a conversation, which requires two sides. However, feeling that you're "on the right side of history" does not give licence to break the law. That's an important lesson, and is probably why the government chose this moment to enforce rule-of-law. It will probably backfire, this is criminal, but not terrorist, activity (it does get close in some ways, but is not really terrorism at all... More criminal activism). They should and must have a voice. They should not and must not break the law. It's really bloody simple. | |||
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"It’s not a criminal offence to show support for the people of Palestine, so no change there. What is illegal is supporting or engaging in the actions of groups like Palestine Action, who have broken into military bases, damaged military vehicles, and targeted companies involved who have defence contracts with Israel. Chants like “Death to the IDF” as seen at Glastonbury have crossed a line from protest into incitement. When that kind of rhetoric spreads across the world, as we have now seen in places like Melbourne, it is evidence that groups such as these fuel extremism rather than dialogue.
Now it's seen as a crime to speak up.
Meanwhile British companies with the support of the British government support and supply the IDF committing the genocide while the majority of the media directs everyone's ire one someone saying something at Glastonbury and someone throwing paint on a plane.
It is not a crime to speak up, it is a crime to incite hate and violence, and cause criminal damage by breaking into a UK military base, damaging UK military hardware.
Can you separate those actions from legal actions?
See. It's 100% working."What is working Johnny? You are smart enough to understand the law and how laws are made and broken. Are you in a position that you support actions against laws you think need breaking? I don't believe you have clarified your stance, only hinted at it. | |||
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"It’s not a criminal offence to show support for the people of Palestine, so no change there. What is illegal is supporting or engaging in the actions of groups like Palestine Action, who have broken into military bases, damaged military vehicles, and targeted companies involved who have defence contracts with Israel. Chants like “Death to the IDF” as seen at Glastonbury have crossed a line from protest into incitement. When that kind of rhetoric spreads across the world, as we have now seen in places like Melbourne, it is evidence that groups such as these fuel extremism rather than dialogue.
Now it's seen as a crime to speak up.
Meanwhile British companies with the support of the British government support and supply the IDF committing the genocide while the majority of the media directs everyone's ire one someone saying something at Glastonbury and someone throwing paint on a plane.
It is not a crime to speak up, it is a crime to incite hate and violence, and cause criminal damage by breaking into a UK military base, damaging UK military hardware.
Can you separate those actions from legal actions?
See. It's 100% working.
What is working Johnny?
You are smart enough to understand the law and how laws are made and broken. Are you in a position that you support actions against laws you think need breaking?
I don't believe you have clarified your stance, only hinted at it.
"Below is a quote from another forum thread about terrorism: " Specifically "the use of violence against non-combatants to achieve political or ideological aims." If pedantry is what you're going for, then, by that definition, a fellow down at the pub would be a terrorist if he poked someone in the chest whilst making a political point. Clearly that's ridiculous. By the same token, any collateral damage in any war, police action, etc. could, technically, fall into that definition of terrorism (depending on how you define "against"). The intention behind using the Wikipedia definition was to use a more human comprehensible definition. Perhaps that was a mistake. Oh, well. We live and learn." I thought it was a good definition. Typically the word "terrorism" is applied to a group on the opposing side of whatever conflict, ie it's been politicised, rather than used as a word to describe the actions. IE. One group kills lots of innocent people. Terrorists. Another group kills lots of innocent people. Brave soldiers. And vice versa. " In the case of this group, violence (against aircraft and premises of non-combatants) has been committed against non combatants. JTN prefers a very literal interpretation of: " Terrorism, in its broadest sense, is the use of violence against non-combatants to achieve political or ideological aims. The term is used in this regard primarily to refer to intentional violence during peacetime or in the context of war against non-combatants. " Therefore JTN must believe that Palestine Action is a terrorist group. | |||
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" Now it's seen as a crime to speak up. Meanwhile British companies with the support of the British government support and supply the IDF committing the genocide while the majority of the media directs everyone's ire one someone saying something at Glastonbury and someone throwing paint on a plane. You're still around dispite incessant "speaking out" so I'm guessing your wrong " Should I be silenced too? | |||
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"It’s not a criminal offence to show support for the people of Palestine, so no change there. What is illegal is supporting or engaging in the actions of groups like Palestine Action, who have broken into military bases, damaged military vehicles, and targeted companies involved who have defence contracts with Israel. Chants like “Death to the IDF” as seen at Glastonbury have crossed a line from protest into incitement. When that kind of rhetoric spreads across the world, as we have now seen in places like Melbourne, it is evidence that groups such as these fuel extremism rather than dialogue.
Now it's seen as a crime to speak up.
Meanwhile British companies with the support of the British government support and supply the IDF committing the genocide while the majority of the media directs everyone's ire one someone saying something at Glastonbury and someone throwing paint on a plane.
It is not a crime to speak up, it is a crime to incite hate and violence, and cause criminal damage by breaking into a UK military base, damaging UK military hardware.
Can you separate those actions from legal actions?
See. It's 100% working.
What is working Johnny?
You are smart enough to understand the law and how laws are made and broken. Are you in a position that you support actions against laws you think need breaking?
I don't believe you have clarified your stance, only hinted at it.
"I haven't expressed a stance. I'm merely commenting that people who are expressing dissent are being made illegal or are being silenced. The media is focusing on them, making them the story. Meanwhile the government is complicit in supporting the genocide. | |||
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"Hopefully there will be less of them blocking our town and cities from now on." When you say "them" is that only the anti-genocide protesters or does that include others, such as rioting violent racists? | |||
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"The Times: …says that Palestine Action proscription “goes too far”. “The antics of such groups are frequently criminal, but branding them acts of terrorism was a misuse of the law” “Its members are qualitatively different from those of al-Qaeda” Fwiw, I don’t condone throwing paint over military planes, but I also think the British Government need to start listening to polls which show support for this Israeli regime & what it is doing is sliding big time. " Apparently throwing paint on planes has some equivalent to the groups who organised the 7/7 bombings. | |||
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" Flying them over Gaza identifying targets to bomb seems to be lawful " Yes, identifying military targets is lawful, as it should be. | |||
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"It’s not a criminal offence to show support for the people of Palestine, so no change there. What is illegal is supporting or engaging in the actions of groups like Palestine Action, who have broken into military bases, damaged military vehicles, and targeted companies involved who have defence contracts with Israel. Chants like “Death to the IDF” as seen at Glastonbury have crossed a line from protest into incitement. When that kind of rhetoric spreads across the world, as we have now seen in places like Melbourne, it is evidence that groups such as these fuel extremism rather than dialogue.
Now it's seen as a crime to speak up.
Meanwhile British companies with the support of the British government support and supply the IDF committing the genocide while the majority of the media directs everyone's ire one someone saying something at Glastonbury and someone throwing paint on a plane.
It is not a crime to speak up, it is a crime to incite hate and violence, and cause criminal damage by breaking into a UK military base, damaging UK military hardware.
Can you separate those actions from legal actions?
See. It's 100% working.
What is working Johnny?
You are smart enough to understand the law and how laws are made and broken. Are you in a position that you support actions against laws you think need breaking?
I don't believe you have clarified your stance, only hinted at it.
I haven't expressed a stance. I'm merely commenting that people who are expressing dissent are being made illegal or are being silenced. The media is focusing on them, making them the story. Meanwhile the government is complicit in supporting the genocide."Expressing dissent is legal and not the same as physically attacking MOD infrastructure, private businesses, their landlords, universities and employees. Palestine action carried out 500 attacks over 4 years, the government considered the 500 acts as violent action intended to influence the government. That meets the test for terrorism. | |||
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"Hopefully there will be less of them blocking our town and cities from now on. When you say "them" is that only the anti-genocide protesters or does that include others, such as rioting violent racists?" If you referring to the Australian protestors /rioters over the weekend, I think it does include them, without doubt. They set a synagogue on fire with 20 people in it, and attacked restaurants chanting death to the IDF. The speed to action from incitement on a global stage is frighteningly quick. | |||
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"Hopefully there will be less of them blocking our town and cities from now on. When you say "them" is that only the anti-genocide protesters or does that include others, such as rioting violent racists? If you referring to the Australian protestors /rioters over the weekend, I think it does include them, without doubt. They set a synagogue on fire with 20 people in it, and attacked restaurants chanting death to the IDF. The speed to action from incitement on a global stage is frighteningly quick. " Oh, I didn't know the person I was replying to was talking about Australia. In which case I don't have any questions. | |||
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"It’s not a criminal offence to show support for the people of Palestine, so no change there. What is illegal is supporting or engaging in the actions of groups like Palestine Action, who have broken into military bases, damaged military vehicles, and targeted companies involved who have defence contracts with Israel. Chants like “Death to the IDF” as seen at Glastonbury have crossed a line from protest into incitement. When that kind of rhetoric spreads across the world, as we have now seen in places like Melbourne, it is evidence that groups such as these fuel extremism rather than dialogue.
Now it's seen as a crime to speak up.
Meanwhile British companies with the support of the British government support and supply the IDF committing the genocide while the majority of the media directs everyone's ire one someone saying something at Glastonbury and someone throwing paint on a plane.
It is not a crime to speak up, it is a crime to incite hate and violence, and cause criminal damage by breaking into a UK military base, damaging UK military hardware.
Can you separate those actions from legal actions?
See. It's 100% working.
What is working Johnny?
You are smart enough to understand the law and how laws are made and broken. Are you in a position that you support actions against laws you think need breaking?
I don't believe you have clarified your stance, only hinted at it.
I haven't expressed a stance. I'm merely commenting that people who are expressing dissent are being made illegal or are being silenced. The media is focusing on them, making them the story. Meanwhile the government is complicit in supporting the genocide.
Expressing dissent is legal and not the same as physically attacking MOD infrastructure, private businesses, their landlords, universities and employees.
Palestine action carried out 500 attacks over 4 years, the government considered the 500 acts as violent action intended to influence the government.
That meets the test for terrorism.
"Sad times. | |||
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" Now it's seen as a crime to speak up. Meanwhile British companies with the support of the British government support and supply the IDF committing the genocide while the majority of the media directs everyone's ire one someone saying something at Glastonbury and someone throwing paint on a plane. You're still around dispite incessant "speaking out" so I'm guessing your wrong Should I be silenced too?" Sometimes I think so lol But seriously, why would you and why would you accuse "them" of trying to when it's obviously bullshit or you'd be in prison by now | |||
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" Now it's seen as a crime to speak up. Meanwhile British companies with the support of the British government support and supply the IDF committing the genocide while the majority of the media directs everyone's ire one someone saying something at Glastonbury and someone throwing paint on a plane. You're still around dispite incessant "speaking out" so I'm guessing your wrong Should I be silenced too? Sometimes I think so lol But seriously, why would you and why would you accuse "them" of trying to when it's obviously bullshit or you'd be in prison by now " I don't follow your line of argument. Are you saying that Palestine Action haven't been labelled a terrorist organisation, and it's not illegal to wear a t-shirt with their logo on it, because a random bloke from a swingers forum isn't in jail for pointing out how the classification of Palestine Action is a political decision? | |||
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"This was a totally obscene move by the government. Terrorism should be left to the real terrorists, not campaigning organisations, who won't cause or plan physical harm to people. " Shoplifters only want the goods they stole and don't care if they are breaking the law, they won't cause or plan physical harm to people aslong as they are allowed to carry on with their law breaking. The old saying fcuk about find out. | |||
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"This was a totally obscene move by the government. Terrorism should be left to the real terrorists, not campaigning organisations, who won't cause or plan physical harm to people. " They are real terrorists they met the test for terrorism and are proscribed. They have threatened physical harm, they have threatened the government and private companies with over 500 acts of aggression and criminal damage, some of which was UK defence infrastructure. People should remind themselves they are proscribed and as such terrorism laws apply. | |||
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"The UK’s illegal war in Iraq cost estimates of 250,000-500,000 dead and two million homeless. The Chilcott and Levenson enquiry’s cost £18million with little accountability. I don’t recall 1.5 million protestors of that in london being prosecuted for terrorism offences. " i dont think they were throwing paint into jet engines on a milatary base | |||
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"The UK’s illegal war in Iraq cost estimates of 250,000-500,000 dead and two million homeless. The Chilcott and Levenson enquiry’s cost £18million with little accountability. I don’t recall 1.5 million protestors of that in london being prosecuted for terrorism offences. i dont think they were throwing paint into jet engines on a milatary base" Pure terror akin to the attacks 20 years ago. That paint will take hours to paint over. | |||
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"This was a totally obscene move by the government. Terrorism should be left to the real terrorists, not campaigning organisations, who won't cause or plan physical harm to people. They are real terrorists they met the test for terrorism and are proscribed. They have threatened physical harm, they have threatened the government and private companies with over 500 acts of aggression and criminal damage, some of which was UK defence infrastructure. People should remind themselves they are proscribed and as such terrorism laws apply. " Lol  | |||
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"The UK’s illegal war in Iraq cost estimates of 250,000-500,000 dead and two million homeless. The Chilcott and Levenson enquiry’s cost £18million with little accountability. I don’t recall 1.5 million protestors of that in london being prosecuted for terrorism offences. i dont think they were throwing paint into jet engines on a milatary base Pure terror akin to the attacks 20 years ago. That paint will take hours to paint over." and £7million | |||
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" Now it's seen as a crime to speak up. Meanwhile British companies with the support of the British government support and supply the IDF committing the genocide while the majority of the media directs everyone's ire one someone saying something at Glastonbury and someone throwing paint on a plane. You're still around dispite incessant "speaking out" so I'm guessing your wrong Should I be silenced too? Sometimes I think so lol But seriously, why would you and why would you accuse "them" of trying to when it's obviously bullshit or you'd be in prison by now I don't follow your line of argument. Are you saying that Palestine Action haven't been labelled a terrorist organisation, and it's not illegal to wear a t-shirt with their logo on it, because a random bloke from a swingers forum isn't in jail for pointing out how the classification of Palestine Action is a political decision?" Have you publicly supported a proscribed terrorist organization or have you discussed whether or not they should be proscribed. If you don't understand the difference then I think the discussion is pointless | |||
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"This was a totally obscene move by the government. Terrorism should be left to the real terrorists, not campaigning organisations, who won't cause or plan physical harm to people. They are real terrorists they met the test for terrorism and are proscribed. They have threatened physical harm, they have threatened the government and private companies with over 500 acts of aggression and criminal damage, some of which was UK defence infrastructure. People should remind themselves they are proscribed and as such terrorism laws apply. Lol "I have a feeling there might be a lack of awareness around the activities of Palestinian action. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0mnnje4wlro | |||
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"It’s not a criminal offence to show support for the people of Palestine, so no change there. What is illegal is supporting or engaging in the actions of groups like Palestine Action, who have broken into military bases, damaged military vehicles, and targeted companies involved who have defence contracts with Israel." It was quite amusing to see 2 of them on top of a transit van, having blocked an entranceway before gluing themselves to the van roof. The police gathered below were drawing lots to see who got the privilege of telling them that the company they were protesting had moved out 3 months beforehand. | |||
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"That paint will take hours to paint over." They threw the paint into the engine, which means that it has to be taken off the plane and dismantled to clean up. Modern turbine engines have incredibly small cooling holes in the turbine blades. Paint could easily block those holes, resulting in a blade overheating and destroying the engine, possibly even downing the aircraft. It's not a simple as wiping it off with a bit of white spirit. | |||
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" Now it's seen as a crime to speak up. Meanwhile British companies with the support of the British government support and supply the IDF committing the genocide while the majority of the media directs everyone's ire one someone saying something at Glastonbury and someone throwing paint on a plane. You're still around dispite incessant "speaking out" so I'm guessing your wrong Should I be silenced too? Sometimes I think so lol But seriously, why would you and why would you accuse "them" of trying to when it's obviously bullshit or you'd be in prison by now I don't follow your line of argument. Are you saying that Palestine Action haven't been labelled a terrorist organisation, and it's not illegal to wear a t-shirt with their logo on it, because a random bloke from a swingers forum isn't in jail for pointing out how the classification of Palestine Action is a political decision? Have you publicly supported a proscribed terrorist organization or have you discussed whether or not they should be proscribed. If you don't understand the difference then I think the discussion is pointless " You've deviated so far from the point that I don't know what you're trying to say. | |||
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"That paint will take hours to paint over. They threw the paint into the engine, which means that it has to be taken off the plane and dismantled to clean up. Modern turbine engines have incredibly small cooling holes in the turbine blades. Paint could easily block those holes, resulting in a blade overheating and destroying the engine, possibly even downing the aircraft. It's not a simple as wiping it off with a bit of white spirit." Solid. Unbelievable that people support this vandalism being proscibed as terrorism. | |||
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" Now it's seen as a crime to speak up. Meanwhile British companies with the support of the British government support and supply the IDF committing the genocide while the majority of the media directs everyone's ire one someone saying something at Glastonbury and someone throwing paint on a plane. You're still around dispite incessant "speaking out" so I'm guessing your wrong Should I be silenced too? Sometimes I think so lol But seriously, why would you and why would you accuse "them" of trying to when it's obviously bullshit or you'd be in prison by now I don't follow your line of argument. Are you saying that Palestine Action haven't been labelled a terrorist organisation, and it's not illegal to wear a t-shirt with their logo on it, because a random bloke from a swingers forum isn't in jail for pointing out how the classification of Palestine Action is a political decision? Have you publicly supported a proscribed terrorist organization or have you discussed whether or not they should be proscribed. If you don't understand the difference then I think the discussion is pointless You've deviated so far from the point that I don't know what you're trying to say. " Nor I you  | |||
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" Now it's seen as a crime to speak up. Meanwhile British companies with the support of the British government support and supply the IDF committing the genocide while the majority of the media directs everyone's ire one someone saying something at Glastonbury and someone throwing paint on a plane. You're still around dispite incessant "speaking out" so I'm guessing your wrong Should I be silenced too? Sometimes I think so lol But seriously, why would you and why would you accuse "them" of trying to when it's obviously bullshit or you'd be in prison by now I don't follow your line of argument. Are you saying that Palestine Action haven't been labelled a terrorist organisation, and it's not illegal to wear a t-shirt with their logo on it, because a random bloke from a swingers forum isn't in jail for pointing out how the classification of Palestine Action is a political decision? Have you publicly supported a proscribed terrorist organization or have you discussed whether or not they should be proscribed. If you don't understand the difference then I think the discussion is pointless You've deviated so far from the point that I don't know what you're trying to say. Nor I you "I was trying to reply to the other person. Sorry if I got people mixed up. | |||
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"The UK’s illegal war in Iraq cost estimates of 250,000-500,000 dead and two million homeless. The Chilcott and Levenson enquiry’s cost £18million with little accountability. I don’t recall 1.5 million protestors of that in london being prosecuted for terrorism offences. i dont think they were throwing paint into jet engines on a milatary base Pure terror akin to the attacks 20 years ago. That paint will take hours to paint over." lol yiu think it just means painting over? They sprayed it into the jet engines the gona need stripping down and re building, prob out of action for weeks | |||
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"That paint will take hours to paint over. They threw the paint into the engine, which means that it has to be taken off the plane and dismantled to clean up. Modern turbine engines have incredibly small cooling holes in the turbine blades. Paint could easily block those holes, resulting in a blade overheating and destroying the engine, possibly even downing the aircraft. It's not a simple as wiping it off with a bit of white spirit. Solid. Unbelievable that people support this vandalism being proscibed as terrorism. " Johnny please, do take a moment to recognise the actions you are defending.. Terrorism Act 2000, terrorism means the use or threat of serious violence against people, or serious damage to property, designed to influence the government or to intimidate the public and done for a political, religious, racial or ideological cause. Palestinian action have 500 offences that qualify in part or in full to this definition. I would also like to say that I mentioned in an earlier post that I consider most people to not fully understand the history of Palestine action. I will go further after reading the replies here and on other threads... The paint on the MOD planes was the headline, they used crowbars to damage the engines, that is why £7million of damage was caused. Follow this link to read about the proscribed group using sledgehammers to attack police, security and staff https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0mnnje4wlro | |||
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"The UK’s illegal war in Iraq cost estimates of 250,000-500,000 dead and two million homeless. The Chilcott and Levenson enquiry’s cost £18million with little accountability. I don’t recall 1.5 million protestors of that in london being prosecuted for terrorism offences. i dont think they were throwing paint into jet engines on a milatary base Pure terror akin to the attacks 20 years ago. That paint will take hours to paint over.lol yiu think it just means painting over? They sprayed it into the jet engines the gona need stripping down and re building, prob out of action for weeks" Good. In the meantime while it’s grounded saves some poor cunt getting bombed. That Dr a few weeks ago lost nine children due to one of these surveillance sortees indentifying her kids as a target. | |||
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"That paint will take hours to paint over. They threw the paint into the engine, which means that it has to be taken off the plane and dismantled to clean up. Modern turbine engines have incredibly small cooling holes in the turbine blades. Paint could easily block those holes, resulting in a blade overheating and destroying the engine, possibly even downing the aircraft. It's not a simple as wiping it off with a bit of white spirit. Solid. Unbelievable that people support this vandalism being proscibed as terrorism. Johnny please, do take a moment to recognise the actions you are defending.. Terrorism Act 2000, terrorism means the use or threat of serious violence against people, or serious damage to property, designed to influence the government or to intimidate the public and done for a political, religious, racial or ideological cause. Palestinian action have 500 offences that qualify in part or in full to this definition. I would also like to say that I mentioned in an earlier post that I consider most people to not fully understand the history of Palestine action. I will go further after reading the replies here and on other threads... The paint on the MOD planes was the headline, they used crowbars to damage the engines, that is why £7million of damage was caused. Follow this link to read about the proscribed group using sledgehammers to attack police, security and staff https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0mnnje4wlro " I'm not defending anything. Please stop trying to make the discussions about the person instead of about the topic. It's clearly ridiculous to equate vandalism with actual real terrorism. | |||
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"It is fascinating how people insist on a literal definition of terrorism (where people argue that, if taken literally, it goes against common sense) in one thread, but then reject that same definition (because it goes against common sense) in others. Nothing wrong with it, it's the human condition "...and it's a gift that just keeps giving. | |||
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"It is fascinating how people insist on a literal definition of terrorism (where people argue that, if taken literally, it goes against common sense) in one thread, but then reject that same definition (because it goes against common sense) in others. Nothing wrong with it, it's the human condition
...and it's a gift that just keeps giving."Unbelievable it really is. | |||
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"That paint will take hours to paint over. They threw the paint into the engine, which means that it has to be taken off the plane and dismantled to clean up. Modern turbine engines have incredibly small cooling holes in the turbine blades. Paint could easily block those holes, resulting in a blade overheating and destroying the engine, possibly even downing the aircraft. It's not a simple as wiping it off with a bit of white spirit. Solid. Unbelievable that people support this vandalism being proscibed as terrorism. Johnny please, do take a moment to recognise the actions you are defending.. Terrorism Act 2000, terrorism means the use or threat of serious violence against people, or serious damage to property, designed to influence the government or to intimidate the public and done for a political, religious, racial or ideological cause. Palestinian action have 500 offences that qualify in part or in full to this definition. I would also like to say that I mentioned in an earlier post that I consider most people to not fully understand the history of Palestine action. I will go further after reading the replies here and on other threads... The paint on the MOD planes was the headline, they used crowbars to damage the engines, that is why £7million of damage was caused. Follow this link to read about the proscribed group using sledgehammers to attack police, security and staff https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0mnnje4wlro I'm not defending anything. Please stop trying to make the discussions about the person instead of about the topic. It's clearly ridiculous to equate vandalism with actual real terrorism." It isn’t “equating” vandalism with terrorism, Parliament decided they have committed terrorism as well as 2 courts. Legal definition Under terrorism Act 2000, serious damage to property designed to influence the Government for a political cause is terrorism. Palestine Action isn’t a one off graffiti gang, 500 serious incidents in four years. Crowbars through RAF plane engines (£7 m damage) Sledgehammer assaults on security staff and police (see BBC link) Written declarations vowing to force UK policy change. The above means the test was met, it was debated, voted on and upheld by judges. You may think the threshold is too low, but sustained, politically motivated sabotage that the law explicitly covers = terrorism in this country. | |||
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"That paint will take hours to paint over. They threw the paint into the engine, which means that it has to be taken off the plane and dismantled to clean up. Modern turbine engines have incredibly small cooling holes in the turbine blades. Paint could easily block those holes, resulting in a blade overheating and destroying the engine, possibly even downing the aircraft. It's not a simple as wiping it off with a bit of white spirit. Solid. Unbelievable that people support this vandalism being proscibed as terrorism. Johnny please, do take a moment to recognise the actions you are defending.. Terrorism Act 2000, terrorism means the use or threat of serious violence against people, or serious damage to property, designed to influence the government or to intimidate the public and done for a political, religious, racial or ideological cause. Palestinian action have 500 offences that qualify in part or in full to this definition. I would also like to say that I mentioned in an earlier post that I consider most people to not fully understand the history of Palestine action. I will go further after reading the replies here and on other threads... The paint on the MOD planes was the headline, they used crowbars to damage the engines, that is why £7million of damage was caused. Follow this link to read about the proscribed group using sledgehammers to attack police, security and staff https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0mnnje4wlro I'm not defending anything. Please stop trying to make the discussions about the person instead of about the topic. It's clearly ridiculous to equate vandalism with actual real terrorism. It isn’t “equating” vandalism with terrorism, Parliament decided they have committed terrorism as well as 2 courts. Legal definition Under terrorism Act 2000, serious damage to property designed to influence the Government for a political cause is terrorism. Palestine Action isn’t a one off graffiti gang, 500 serious incidents in four years. Crowbars through RAF plane engines (£7 m damage) Sledgehammer assaults on security staff and police (see BBC link) Written declarations vowing to force UK policy change. The above means the test was met, it was debated, voted on and upheld by judges. You may think the threshold is too low, but sustained, politically motivated sabotage that the law explicitly covers = terrorism in this country. " I don't think we're arguing what's happened. I'm arguing it's ridiculous and politically motivated. While the government and media have people's ire directed at these kind of people, actually terrorism and actual genocide is being facilitated by the government. | |||
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"Meanwhile British companies with the support of the British government support and supply the IDF committing the genocide while the majority of the media directs everyone's ire one someone saying something at Glastonbury and someone throwing paint on a plane. It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, it still isn't a genocide unless you change the definition of genocide to suit an ideology." If the word genocide is good enough for the United Nations to use in this situation, then it is good enough for me… If it makes you squirm and squeamish that people use the word to describe what the Israeli government and the IDF are doing… that’s a you issue You can play the game of semantics if it makes you feel better! | |||
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"Meanwhile British companies with the support of the British government support and supply the IDF committing the genocide while the majority of the media directs everyone's ire one someone saying something at Glastonbury and someone throwing paint on a plane. It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, it still isn't a genocide unless you change the definition of genocide to suit an ideology. If the word genocide is good enough for the United Nations to use in this situation, then it is good enough for me… If it makes you squirm and squeamish that people use the word to describe what the Israeli government and the IDF are doing… that’s a you issue You can play the game of semantics if it makes you feel better! " IF you believe that what's happening in Gaza is genocide, then how would you define genocide, in order to make it clear and unambiguous in this case, without the possibility of semantics to dismiss it? | |||
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"Netanyahu has nominated Trump for the Nobel peace prize, who supplies Netanyahu with the weapons to carry on with the genocidal policy,that's the level world politics is at." Don't worry about that. The main issue is some paint on a plane, or some people at Glastonbury speaking out. | |||
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"If the bar is not met for genocide in Gaza, how would that play out for protests groups and activists who are already claiming it is genocide? " They'll refer back to the UN, seeing as they are the ones describing it thusly. | |||
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"It’s not a criminal offence to show support for the people of Palestine, so no change there. What is illegal is supporting or engaging in the actions of groups like Palestine Action, who have broken into military bases, damaged military vehicles, and targeted companies involved who have defence contracts with Israel. Chants like “Death to the IDF” as seen at Glastonbury have crossed a line from protest into incitement. When that kind of rhetoric spreads across the world, as we have now seen in places like Melbourne, it is evidence that groups such as these fuel extremism rather than dialogue.
Now it's seen as a crime to speak up.
Meanwhile British companies with the support of the British government support and supply the IDF committing the genocide while the majority of the media directs everyone's ire one someone saying something at Glastonbury and someone throwing paint on a plane.
It is not a crime to speak up, it is a crime to incite hate and violence, and cause criminal damage by breaking into a UK military base, damaging UK military hardware.
Can you separate those actions from legal actions?
"It's the same people who will tell us how burning a book is inciting violence and hence deserves an arrest. Indulging in and supporting actual violence on the other hand, apparently doesn't deserve an arrest | |||
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"If the bar is not met for genocide in Gaza, how would that play out for protests groups and activists who are already claiming it is genocide? They'll refer back to the UN, seeing as they are the ones describing it thusly." I’ve looked, but I haven’t found any official UN statement declaring that genocide is happening in Gaza? | |||
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"If the bar is not met for genocide in Gaza, how would that play out for protests groups and activists who are already claiming it is genocide? They'll refer back to the UN, seeing as they are the ones describing it thusly. I’ve looked, but I haven’t found any official UN statement declaring that genocide is happening in Gaza?" Francesca Albanese is probably the point of origin. She works for the UN and is vehemently outspoken about Israel. | |||
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"If the bar is not met for genocide in Gaza, how would that play out for protests groups and activists who are already claiming it is genocide? They'll refer back to the UN, seeing as they are the ones describing it thusly. I’ve looked, but I haven’t found any official UN statement declaring that genocide is happening in Gaza? Francesca Albanese is probably the point of origin. She works for the UN and is vehemently outspoken about Israel." Thanks I will take a look later today. Is she an official spokesperson for the UN or it is her personal opinion? | |||
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"If the bar is not met for genocide in Gaza, how would that play out for protests groups and activists who are already claiming it is genocide? They'll refer back to the UN, seeing as they are the ones describing it thusly. I’ve looked, but I haven’t found any official UN statement declaring that genocide is happening in Gaza? Francesca Albanese is probably the point of origin. She works for the UN and is vehemently outspoken about Israel. Thanks I will take a look later today. Is she an official spokesperson for the UN or it is her personal opinion?" Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967 She came to the role with already very strong views. Her words do not necessarily represent UN official policy (what does that even mean, given all the bodies and parties), but they are impactful, thoughtful and considered (just from a predefined viewpoint). | |||
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"If the bar is not met for genocide in Gaza, how would that play out for protests groups and activists who are already claiming it is genocide? They'll refer back to the UN, seeing as they are the ones describing it thusly. I’ve looked, but I haven’t found any official UN statement declaring that genocide is happening in Gaza? Francesca Albanese is probably the point of origin. She works for the UN and is vehemently outspoken about Israel. Thanks I will take a look later today. Is she an official spokesperson for the UN or it is her personal opinion?" I have been listening to her for a while now and she is official having held a session into isreals shift into genocide only five days ago at a UN meeting. And also the economic benefits that come from erasing a group of people off the face of the earth. | |||
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"If the bar is not met for genocide in Gaza, how would that play out for protests groups and activists who are already claiming it is genocide? They'll refer back to the UN, seeing as they are the ones describing it thusly. I’ve looked, but I haven’t found any official UN statement declaring that genocide is happening in Gaza? Francesca Albanese is probably the point of origin. She works for the UN and is vehemently outspoken about Israel. Thanks I will take a look later today. Is she an official spokesperson for the UN or it is her personal opinion? Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967 She came to the role with already very strong views. Her words do not necessarily represent UN official policy (what does that even mean, given all the bodies and parties), but they are impactful, thoughtful and considered (just from a predefined viewpoint)." She is certainly influential with the right ears, and I can see where she has been influential. However if I understand the process correctly and her part in this, she is advisory and not binding. ICJ will rule on whether genocide has or hasn't occurred and the bar being so high to meet genocide it has only been met 3 times prior, the Holocaust, Rwanda and Srebrenica. Notably Yemen and Syria which have greater numbers of deaths did not meet the bar to be classed as a genocide. My take away, claiming there is genocide in Gaza is opinion right now, and the probability of it passing the bar to be classed as a genocide looks low. | |||
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"If the bar is not met for genocide in Gaza, how would that play out for protests groups and activists who are already claiming it is genocide? They'll refer back to the UN, seeing as they are the ones describing it thusly. I’ve looked, but I haven’t found any official UN statement declaring that genocide is happening in Gaza?" You can find the UN special committee describing Israel’s warfare methods in Gaza consistent with genocide, including use of starvation as weapon of war. | |||
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"If the bar is not met for genocide in Gaza, how would that play out for protests groups and activists who are already claiming it is genocide? They'll refer back to the UN, seeing as they are the ones describing it thusly. I’ve looked, but I haven’t found any official UN statement declaring that genocide is happening in Gaza? Francesca Albanese is probably the point of origin. She works for the UN and is vehemently outspoken about Israel. Thanks I will take a look later today. Is she an official spokesperson for the UN or it is her personal opinion? Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967 She came to the role with already very strong views. Her words do not necessarily represent UN official policy (what does that even mean, given all the bodies and parties), but they are impactful, thoughtful and considered (just from a predefined viewpoint). She is certainly influential with the right ears, and I can see where she has been influential. However if I understand the process correctly and her part in this, she is advisory and not binding. ICJ will rule on whether genocide has or hasn't occurred and the bar being so high to meet genocide it has only been met 3 times prior, the Holocaust, Rwanda and Srebrenica. Notably Yemen and Syria which have greater numbers of deaths did not meet the bar to be classed as a genocide. My take away, claiming there is genocide in Gaza is opinion right now, and the probability of it passing the bar to be classed as a genocide looks low." You are probably correct. | |||
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" You can find the UN special committee describing Israel’s warfare methods in Gaza consistent with genocide, including use of starvation as weapon of war. " This is true. What your are looking, however, is more akin to a prosecution's statement. | |||
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"It’s not a criminal offence to show support for the people of Palestine, so no change there. What is illegal is supporting or engaging in the actions of groups like Palestine Action, who have broken into military bases, damaged military vehicles, and targeted companies involved who have defence contracts with Israel. Chants like “Death to the IDF” as seen at Glastonbury have crossed a line from protest into incitement. When that kind of rhetoric spreads across the world, as we have now seen in places like Melbourne, it is evidence that groups such as these fuel extremism rather than dialogue.
Now it's seen as a crime to speak up.
Meanwhile British companies with the support of the British government support and supply the IDF committing the genocide while the majority of the media directs everyone's ire one someone saying something at Glastonbury and someone throwing paint on a plane.
It is not a crime to speak up, it is a crime to incite hate and violence, and cause criminal damage by breaking into a UK military base, damaging UK military hardware.
Can you separate those actions from legal actions?
It's the same people who will tell us how burning a book is inciting violence and hence deserves an arrest. Indulging in and supporting actual violence on the other hand, apparently doesn't deserve an arrest "Lol  | |||
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"Meanwhile British companies with the support of the British government support and supply the IDF committing the genocide while the majority of the media directs everyone's ire one someone saying something at Glastonbury and someone throwing paint on a plane. It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, it still isn't a genocide unless you change the definition of genocide to suit an ideology. If the word genocide is good enough for the United Nations to use in this situation, then it is good enough for me… If it makes you squirm and squeamish that people use the word to describe what the Israeli government and the IDF are doing… that’s a you issue You can play the game of semantics if it makes you feel better! " I think the boots on the wrong foot for the ones engaging in semantics. | |||
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"If the bar is not met for genocide in Gaza, how would that play out for protests groups and activists who are already claiming it is genocide? They'll refer back to the UN, seeing as they are the ones describing it thusly. I’ve looked, but I haven’t found any official UN statement declaring that genocide is happening in Gaza? Francesca Albanese is probably the point of origin. She works for the UN and is vehemently outspoken about Israel. Thanks I will take a look later today. Is she an official spokesperson for the UN or it is her personal opinion? Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967 She came to the role with already very strong views. Her words do not necessarily represent UN official policy (what does that even mean, given all the bodies and parties), but they are impactful, thoughtful and considered (just from a predefined viewpoint). She is certainly influential with the right ears, and I can see where she has been influential. However if I understand the process correctly and her part in this, she is advisory and not binding. ICJ will rule on whether genocide has or hasn't occurred and the bar being so high to meet genocide it has only been met 3 times prior, the Holocaust, Rwanda and Srebrenica. Notably Yemen and Syria which have greater numbers of deaths did not meet the bar to be classed as a genocide. My take away, claiming there is genocide in Gaza is opinion right now, and the probability of it passing the bar to be classed as a genocide looks low." As I have been aware of her for months before you and I kind of knew you were going to try and discredit her. I also knew you would mention other countries. What is different here is Israel's action have set a bar now for other countries as you have mentioned to look and see and then do the same. Even Putin has stepped up his attacks and has targeted civilians on a much wider scale. There will not be a western country who supported Israel that would be able do anything about it. | |||
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" You can find the UN special committee describing Israel’s warfare methods in Gaza consistent with genocide, including use of starvation as weapon of war. This is true. What your are looking, however, is more akin to a prosecution's statement." I find the the-genocide-might-not-be-genocide a strange hill for people to die on. | |||
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"The UK’s illegal war in Iraq cost estimates of 250,000-500,000 dead and two million homeless. The Chilcott and Levenson enquiry’s cost £18million with little accountability. I don’t recall 1.5 million protestors of that in london being prosecuted for terrorism offences. i dont think they were throwing paint into jet engines on a milatary base Pure terror akin to the attacks 20 years ago. That paint will take hours to paint over.lol yiu think it just means painting over? They sprayed it into the jet engines the gona need stripping down and re building, prob out of action for weeks Good. In the meantime while it’s grounded saves some poor cunt getting bombed. That Dr a few weeks ago lost nine children due to one of these surveillance sortees indentifying her kids as a target. " Well the people of gaza should of voted more Wisley,its not as if the populace didn't know what hamas qas all about before voting for em,and aww those poor Palestinians bet they didn't think the retaliation was gona be that bad while they were lining the streets clapping and laughing and dancing on Oct 7th when hamas were bringing the hostages back to gaza,stop trying to make out there innocents they was ecstatic on Oct 7th | |||
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" You can find the UN special committee describing Israel’s warfare methods in Gaza consistent with genocide, including use of starvation as weapon of war. This is true. What your are looking, however, is more akin to a prosecution's statement. I find the the-genocide-might-not-be-genocide a strange hill for people to die on." Welcome to the wonderful world of forums... Where people become pedantic and semantics-driven one second... Then change their approach to legal definitions (and those who stick to them) when it suits them. The biggest sticking point in the case of genocide against Israel is whether there is intent. Do you really find it so strange that some people might not believe that the intent of Israel is to annihilate (wholly or substantially) the Arab population within the borders of their control? | |||
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" You can find the UN special committee describing Israel’s warfare methods in Gaza consistent with genocide, including use of starvation as weapon of war. This is true. What your are looking, however, is more akin to a prosecution's statement. I find the the-genocide-might-not-be-genocide a strange hill for people to die on." If the ICJ rule there was no genocide, will you accept their judgement? | |||
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"If the bar is not met for genocide in Gaza, how would that play out for protests groups and activists who are already claiming it is genocide? They'll refer back to the UN, seeing as they are the ones describing it thusly. I’ve looked, but I haven’t found any official UN statement declaring that genocide is happening in Gaza? Francesca Albanese is probably the point of origin. She works for the UN and is vehemently outspoken about Israel. Thanks I will take a look later today. Is she an official spokesperson for the UN or it is her personal opinion? Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967 She came to the role with already very strong views. Her words do not necessarily represent UN official policy (what does that even mean, given all the bodies and parties), but they are impactful, thoughtful and considered (just from a predefined viewpoint). She is certainly influential with the right ears, and I can see where she has been influential. However if I understand the process correctly and her part in this, she is advisory and not binding. ICJ will rule on whether genocide has or hasn't occurred and the bar being so high to meet genocide it has only been met 3 times prior, the Holocaust, Rwanda and Srebrenica. Notably Yemen and Syria which have greater numbers of deaths did not meet the bar to be classed as a genocide. My take away, claiming there is genocide in Gaza is opinion right now, and the probability of it passing the bar to be classed as a genocide looks low. As I have been aware of her for months before you and I kind of knew you were going to try and discredit her. I also knew you would mention other countries. What is different here is Israel's action have set a bar now for other countries as you have mentioned to look and see and then do the same. Even Putin has stepped up his attacks and has targeted civilians on a much wider scale. There will not be a western country who supported Israel that would be able do anything about it. " How have I discredited her exactly? On your other point... I referred to other countries to illustrate how high the threshold is for an act to be legally classified as genocide, I'm not sure why that is a problem? | |||
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" If the ICJ rule there was no genocide, will you accept their judgement? " Don't be ridiculous. The ICJ apply a cold analysis of facts and a definition in law. Any human being with empathy knows a genocide when they see one; it's how you feel that makes it true. Alternatively, Zionists bought them or threatened them, or Zionists have infiltrated them. Or perhaps the Zionist-controlled media made it happen. | |||
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"The UK’s illegal war in Iraq cost estimates of 250,000-500,000 dead and two million homeless. The Chilcott and Levenson enquiry’s cost £18million with little accountability. I don’t recall 1.5 million protestors of that in london being prosecuted for terrorism offences. i dont think they were throwing paint into jet engines on a milatary base Pure terror akin to the attacks 20 years ago. That paint will take hours to paint over.lol yiu think it just means painting over? They sprayed it into the jet engines the gona need stripping down and re building, prob out of action for weeks Good. In the meantime while it’s grounded saves some poor cunt getting bombed. That Dr a few weeks ago lost nine children due to one of these surveillance sortees indentifying her kids as a target. Well the people of gaza should of voted more Wisley,its not as if the populace didn't know what hamas qas all about before voting for em,and aww those poor Palestinians bet they didn't think the retaliation was gona be that bad while they were lining the streets clapping and laughing and dancing on Oct 7th when hamas were bringing the hostages back to gaza,stop trying to make out there innocents they was ecstatic on Oct 7th" So all the kids that are being mass slaughtered aren't innocent? Amazing. | |||
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" You can find the UN special committee describing Israel’s warfare methods in Gaza consistent with genocide, including use of starvation as weapon of war. This is true. What your are looking, however, is more akin to a prosecution's statement. I find the the-genocide-might-not-be-genocide a strange hill for people to die on. Welcome to the wonderful world of forums... Where people become pedantic and semantics-driven one second... Then change their approach to legal definitions (and those who stick to them) when it suits them. The biggest sticking point in the case of genocide against Israel is whether there is intent. Do you really find it so strange that some people might not believe that the intent of Israel is to annihilate (wholly or substantially) the Arab population within the borders of their control?" Yes that's really fucking strange, seeing as it's actually happening. | |||
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" You can find the UN special committee describing Israel’s warfare methods in Gaza consistent with genocide, including use of starvation as weapon of war. This is true. What your are looking, however, is more akin to a prosecution's statement. I find the the-genocide-might-not-be-genocide a strange hill for people to die on. If the ICJ rule there was no genocide, will you accept their judgement? " If they did it would be interesting. The much more pertinent question would be the reverse. Would the genocide deniers, or even those who have been cheering it on, feel differently if it was somehow made officially a genocide? | |||
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"The UK’s illegal war in Iraq cost estimates of 250,000-500,000 dead and two million homeless. The Chilcott and Levenson enquiry’s cost £18million with little accountability. I don’t recall 1.5 million protestors of that in london being prosecuted for terrorism offences. i dont think they were throwing paint into jet engines on a milatary base Pure terror akin to the attacks 20 years ago. That paint will take hours to paint over.lol yiu think it just means painting over? They sprayed it into the jet engines the gona need stripping down and re building, prob out of action for weeks Good. In the meantime while it’s grounded saves some poor cunt getting bombed. That Dr a few weeks ago lost nine children due to one of these surveillance sortees indentifying her kids as a target. Well the people of gaza should of voted more Wisley,its not as if the populace didn't know what hamas qas all about before voting for em,and aww those poor Palestinians bet they didn't think the retaliation was gona be that bad while they were lining the streets clapping and laughing and dancing on Oct 7th when hamas were bringing the hostages back to gaza,stop trying to make out there innocents they was ecstatic on Oct 7th So all the kids that are being mass slaughtered aren't innocent? Amazing." talk to there parents they were the ones out in the streets celebrating was also there parents who voted hamas in moral of the story don't pick a fight you can't win,did hamas think that Israel would just bomb a couple of buildings after Oct 7th?Well they no in future if you kill 1000 Israelis they will kill 100,000 gazans | |||
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"Even if it were to rule against Israel now, the outcome would be largely symbolic. Any enforcement would require action by the UN Security Council under Chapter Seven, which is highly unlikely due to the almost guaranteed veto by the US. The entire process is unenforceable and politically driven. It may generate headlines, but it won’t result in anything. Just like all the other accusations, this is largely another performative farce... A list of some of the times Israel has been accused of genocide, with the population of the disputed territories next to them: 1948 - Arab league - population 730 thousand 1967 - Arab League - population 1 million 1970 – KGB - population 1.3-1.7 million 1982 - Yasser Arafat - population 1.9 million 2001 - NGOs at Durban Forum - population 3.1 million 2004 - Malaysia PM - population 3.5 million 2010 - Richard Falk (UN Special Rapporteur) - population 4.1 million 2014 - Bolivia and Turkey - population 4.5 million 2018 - UN Cerd Committee - population 4.8 million 2021 - BDS Group - population 5.2 million 2022 - Francesca Albanese (UN Rapporteur) - population 5.3 million 2023 - Iran and South Africa - population 5.4 million Either this is the weirdest genocide in history, or someone is crying wolf. 🤔" Or like you pointed out. Any attempt at creating any accountability, is vetoed by the US. | |||
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"The UK’s illegal war in Iraq cost estimates of 250,000-500,000 dead and two million homeless. The Chilcott and Levenson enquiry’s cost £18million with little accountability. I don’t recall 1.5 million protestors of that in london being prosecuted for terrorism offences. i dont think they were throwing paint into jet engines on a milatary base Pure terror akin to the attacks 20 years ago. That paint will take hours to paint over.lol yiu think it just means painting over? They sprayed it into the jet engines the gona need stripping down and re building, prob out of action for weeks Good. In the meantime while it’s grounded saves some poor cunt getting bombed. That Dr a few weeks ago lost nine children due to one of these surveillance sortees indentifying her kids as a target. Well the people of gaza should of voted more Wisley,its not as if the populace didn't know what hamas qas all about before voting for em,and aww those poor Palestinians bet they didn't think the retaliation was gona be that bad while they were lining the streets clapping and laughing and dancing on Oct 7th when hamas were bringing the hostages back to gaza,stop trying to make out there innocents they was ecstatic on Oct 7th So all the kids that are being mass slaughtered aren't innocent? Amazing.talk to there parents they were the ones out in the streets celebrating was also there parents who voted hamas in moral of the story don't pick a fight you can't win,did hamas think that Israel would just bomb a couple of buildings after Oct 7th?Well they no in future if you kill 1000 Israelis they will kill 100,000 gazans" Indeed, and killed with USA bombs. Karma just served up floods in Texas, what goes round… | |||
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"The UK’s illegal war in Iraq cost estimates of 250,000-500,000 dead and two million homeless. The Chilcott and Levenson enquiry’s cost £18million with little accountability. I don’t recall 1.5 million protestors of that in london being prosecuted for terrorism offences. i dont think they were throwing paint into jet engines on a milatary base Pure terror akin to the attacks 20 years ago. That paint will take hours to paint over.lol yiu think it just means painting over? They sprayed it into the jet engines the gona need stripping down and re building, prob out of action for weeks Good. In the meantime while it’s grounded saves some poor cunt getting bombed. That Dr a few weeks ago lost nine children due to one of these surveillance sortees indentifying her kids as a target. Well the people of gaza should of voted more Wisley,its not as if the populace didn't know what hamas qas all about before voting for em,and aww those poor Palestinians bet they didn't think the retaliation was gona be that bad while they were lining the streets clapping and laughing and dancing on Oct 7th when hamas were bringing the hostages back to gaza,stop trying to make out there innocents they was ecstatic on Oct 7th So all the kids that are being mass slaughtered aren't innocent? Amazing.talk to there parents they were the ones out in the streets celebrating was also there parents who voted hamas in moral of the story don't pick a fight you can't win,did hamas think that Israel would just bomb a couple of buildings after Oct 7th?Well they no in future if you kill 1000 Israelis they will kill 100,000 gazans" Small children picked a fight they can't win? Amazing. | |||
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"The UK’s illegal war in Iraq cost estimates of 250,000-500,000 dead and two million homeless. The Chilcott and Levenson enquiry’s cost £18million with little accountability. I don’t recall 1.5 million protestors of that in london being prosecuted for terrorism offences. i dont think they were throwing paint into jet engines on a milatary base Pure terror akin to the attacks 20 years ago. That paint will take hours to paint over.lol yiu think it just means painting over? They sprayed it into the jet engines the gona need stripping down and re building, prob out of action for weeks Good. In the meantime while it’s grounded saves some poor cunt getting bombed. That Dr a few weeks ago lost nine children due to one of these surveillance sortees indentifying her kids as a target. Well the people of gaza should of voted more Wisley,its not as if the populace didn't know what hamas qas all about before voting for em,and aww those poor Palestinians bet they didn't think the retaliation was gona be that bad while they were lining the streets clapping and laughing and dancing on Oct 7th when hamas were bringing the hostages back to gaza,stop trying to make out there innocents they was ecstatic on Oct 7th So all the kids that are being mass slaughtered aren't innocent? Amazing.talk to there parents they were the ones out in the streets celebrating was also there parents who voted hamas in moral of the story don't pick a fight you can't win,did hamas think that Israel would just bomb a couple of buildings after Oct 7th?Well they no in future if you kill 1000 Israelis they will kill 100,000 gazans Small children picked a fight they can't win? Amazing." No the people there parents voted into power did,perhaps there parents hatred of the country next door has consequences, | |||
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"The UK’s illegal war in Iraq cost estimates of 250,000-500,000 dead and two million homeless. The Chilcott and Levenson enquiry’s cost £18million with little accountability. I don’t recall 1.5 million protestors of that in london being prosecuted for terrorism offences. i dont think they were throwing paint into jet engines on a milatary base Pure terror akin to the attacks 20 years ago. That paint will take hours to paint over.lol yiu think it just means painting over? They sprayed it into the jet engines the gona need stripping down and re building, prob out of action for weeks Good. In the meantime while it’s grounded saves some poor cunt getting bombed. That Dr a few weeks ago lost nine children due to one of these surveillance sortees indentifying her kids as a target. Well the people of gaza should of voted more Wisley,its not as if the populace didn't know what hamas qas all about before voting for em,and aww those poor Palestinians bet they didn't think the retaliation was gona be that bad while they were lining the streets clapping and laughing and dancing on Oct 7th when hamas were bringing the hostages back to gaza,stop trying to make out there innocents they was ecstatic on Oct 7th So all the kids that are being mass slaughtered aren't innocent? Amazing.talk to there parents they were the ones out in the streets celebrating was also there parents who voted hamas in moral of the story don't pick a fight you can't win,did hamas think that Israel would just bomb a couple of buildings after Oct 7th?Well they no in future if you kill 1000 Israelis they will kill 100,000 gazans Small children picked a fight they can't win? Amazing.No the people there parents voted into power did,perhaps there parents hatred of the country next door has consequences," At the time it was reported 75% of Gazans were supportive of the attacks on Israelis. Reap what you sow. | |||
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", At the time it was reported 75% of Gazans were supportive of the attacks on Israelis. Reap what you sow. " Where does that number come from? Who did the polling? | |||
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", At the time it was reported 75% of Gazans were supportive of the attacks on Israelis. Reap what you sow. Where does that number come from? Who did the polling?" The Palestinian Center for Policy Survey and Research (PCPSR) findings were published as international alarm grows over the spiralling Palestinian civilian toll in the Israeli counter-offensive against Hamas, now in its third month. Reuters 13Dec 2023 | |||
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"Even if it were to rule against Israel now, the outcome would be largely symbolic. Any enforcement would require action by the UN Security Council under Chapter Seven, which is highly unlikely due to the almost guaranteed veto by the US. The entire process is unenforceable and politically driven. It may generate headlines, but it won’t result in anything. Just like all the other accusations, this is largely another performative farce... A list of some of the times Israel has been accused of genocide, with the population of the disputed territories next to them: 1948 - Arab league - population 730 thousand 1967 - Arab League - population 1 million 1970 – KGB - population 1.3-1.7 million 1982 - Yasser Arafat - population 1.9 million 2001 - NGOs at Durban Forum - population 3.1 million 2004 - Malaysia PM - population 3.5 million 2010 - Richard Falk (UN Special Rapporteur) - population 4.1 million 2014 - Bolivia and Turkey - population 4.5 million 2018 - UN Cerd Committee - population 4.8 million 2021 - BDS Group - population 5.2 million 2022 - Francesca Albanese (UN Rapporteur) - population 5.3 million 2023 - Iran and South Africa - population 5.4 million Either this is the weirdest genocide in history, or someone is crying wolf. 🤔" Your first couple of words say it all… I have seen this new defence of genocide that defenders of Israel are putting out… I mean it can’t possibly be a genocide if more babies are born than the amount of people we are killing! Ooh.. I suppose that gives us more scope to kill a few more!!!!! Do you listen to yourself!!! It’s pathetic!!! | |||
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"The UK’s illegal war in Iraq cost estimates of 250,000-500,000 dead and two million homeless. The Chilcott and Levenson enquiry’s cost £18million with little accountability. I don’t recall 1.5 million protestors of that in london being prosecuted for terrorism offences. i dont think they were throwing paint into jet engines on a milatary base Pure terror akin to the attacks 20 years ago. That paint will take hours to paint over.lol yiu think it just means painting over? They sprayed it into the jet engines the gona need stripping down and re building, prob out of action for weeks Good. In the meantime while it’s grounded saves some poor cunt getting bombed. That Dr a few weeks ago lost nine children due to one of these surveillance sortees indentifying her kids as a target. Well the people of gaza should of voted more Wisley,its not as if the populace didn't know what hamas qas all about before voting for em,and aww those poor Palestinians bet they didn't think the retaliation was gona be that bad while they were lining the streets clapping and laughing and dancing on Oct 7th when hamas were bringing the hostages back to gaza,stop trying to make out there innocents they was ecstatic on Oct 7th So all the kids that are being mass slaughtered aren't innocent? Amazing.talk to there parents they were the ones out in the streets celebrating was also there parents who voted hamas in moral of the story don't pick a fight you can't win,did hamas think that Israel would just bomb a couple of buildings after Oct 7th?Well they no in future if you kill 1000 Israelis they will kill 100,000 gazans Small children picked a fight they can't win? Amazing.No the people there parents voted into power did,perhaps there parents hatred of the country next door has consequences," Before you crack on with this line. Have a look at the choices they had and what happened in the elections there. | |||
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"The UK’s illegal war in Iraq cost estimates of 250,000-500,000 dead and two million homeless. The Chilcott and Levenson enquiry’s cost £18million with little accountability. I don’t recall 1.5 million protestors of that in london being prosecuted for terrorism offences. i dont think they were throwing paint into jet engines on a milatary base Pure terror akin to the attacks 20 years ago. That paint will take hours to paint over.lol yiu think it just means painting over? They sprayed it into the jet engines the gona need stripping down and re building, prob out of action for weeks Good. In the meantime while it’s grounded saves some poor cunt getting bombed. That Dr a few weeks ago lost nine children due to one of these surveillance sortees indentifying her kids as a target. Well the people of gaza should of voted more Wisley,its not as if the populace didn't know what hamas qas all about before voting for em,and aww those poor Palestinians bet they didn't think the retaliation was gona be that bad while they were lining the streets clapping and laughing and dancing on Oct 7th when hamas were bringing the hostages back to gaza,stop trying to make out there innocents they was ecstatic on Oct 7th So all the kids that are being mass slaughtered aren't innocent? Amazing.talk to there parents they were the ones out in the streets celebrating was also there parents who voted hamas in moral of the story don't pick a fight you can't win,did hamas think that Israel would just bomb a couple of buildings after Oct 7th?Well they no in future if you kill 1000 Israelis they will kill 100,000 gazans Small children picked a fight they can't win? Amazing.No the people there parents voted into power did,perhaps there parents hatred of the country next door has consequences, At the time it was reported 75% of Gazans were supportive of the attacks on Israelis. Reap what you sow. " Which attacks, how exactly was this data collected? Sounds sus | |||
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"Even if it were to rule against Israel now, the outcome would be largely symbolic. Any enforcement would require action by the UN Security Council under Chapter Seven, which is highly unlikely due to the almost guaranteed veto by the US. The entire process is unenforceable and politically driven. It may generate headlines, but it won’t result in anything. Just like all the other accusations, this is largely another performative farce... A list of some of the times Israel has been accused of genocide, with the population of the disputed territories next to them: 1948 - Arab league - population 730 thousand 1967 - Arab League - population 1 million 1970 – KGB - population 1.3-1.7 million 1982 - Yasser Arafat - population 1.9 million 2001 - NGOs at Durban Forum - population 3.1 million 2004 - Malaysia PM - population 3.5 million 2010 - Richard Falk (UN Special Rapporteur) - population 4.1 million 2014 - Bolivia and Turkey - population 4.5 million 2018 - UN Cerd Committee - population 4.8 million 2021 - BDS Group - population 5.2 million 2022 - Francesca Albanese (UN Rapporteur) - population 5.3 million 2023 - Iran and South Africa - population 5.4 million Either this is the weirdest genocide in history, or someone is crying wolf. 🤔 Your first couple of words say it all… I have seen this new defence of genocide that defenders of Israel are putting out… I mean it can’t possibly be a genocide if more babies are born than the amount of people we are killing! Ooh.. I suppose that gives us more scope to kill a few more!!!!! Do you listen to yourself!!! It’s pathetic!!! " | |||
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", At the time it was reported 75% of Gazans were supportive of the attacks on Israelis. Reap what you sow. Where does that number come from? Who did the polling? The Palestinian Center for Policy Survey and Research (PCPSR) findings were published as international alarm grows over the spiralling Palestinian civilian toll in the Israeli counter-offensive against Hamas, now in its third month. Reuters 13Dec 2023 " This number has been debunked by Israel as Hamas propaganda tho. Either way, I'd be interested in seeing the methodology and sample size of how they got that figure. | |||
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" You can find the UN special committee describing Israel’s warfare methods in Gaza consistent with genocide, including use of starvation as weapon of war. This is true. What your are looking, however, is more akin to a prosecution's statement. I find the the-genocide-might-not-be-genocide a strange hill for people to die on. If the ICJ rule there was no genocide, will you accept their judgement? If they did it would be interesting. The much more pertinent question would be the reverse. Would the genocide deniers, or even those who have been cheering it on, feel differently if it was somehow made officially a genocide?" I don’t believe the legal threshold for genocide will be met. That’s not denial or endorsement it’s a view shaped on what law defines genocide as and what evidence is required to meet that bar. Along with that are the wars and events that have had many more deaths, and only 3 in history that have ever been classed as genocide. Like I said the bar seems extremely high. What concerns me is how some have already declared it a foregone conclusion. If the ICJ rules that it isn’t genocide, I worry how that will be received by those who have built their narrative around it. Fanatic reactions would follow, I have no doubt about that. | |||
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"Honest question. How many of you stopped buying Chinese products because of the genocide they are committing on the Uyghurs? And want UK to stop any dealings with all middle eastern countries for their extermination of Gays?" You do know that whataboutery is a fallacy, right? But anyway... Is the UK government helping China oppress the Uyghurs? How many internet posts have you seen defending the Chinese government's actions? How many Uyghurs have been killed? | |||
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"Honest question. How many of you stopped buying Chinese products because of the genocide they are committing on the Uyghurs? And want UK to stop any dealings with all middle eastern countries for their extermination of Gays? You do know that whataboutery is a fallacy, right? " Pointing out selective outrage isn't whataboutery. If you have a reason why you are outraged about this specific issue, that's totally acceptable. " But anyway... Is the UK government helping China oppress the Uyghurs? " But you are helping China by buying their products pretty much all the time " How many internet posts have you seen defending the Chinese government's actions? " It was pretty common when the news first broke out. No people have conveniently forgotten. Middle eastern countries brazenly have death penalty for gays. Any of you got the balls to protest against them and calling them out? " How many Uyghurs have been killed? " So it's about the number of people? If a small group gets genocided, you won't care? For the record, I still don't admit that Israel is committing genocide. But even if we admit that, it doesn't make sense why the left seems to be focused on this specific genocide. At least Israel can blame it on the October 7 attack. What can China and the Middle eastern countries blame? | |||
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"The UK’s illegal war in Iraq cost estimates of 250,000-500,000 dead and two million homeless. The Chilcott and Levenson enquiry’s cost £18million with little accountability. I don’t recall 1.5 million protestors of that in london being prosecuted for terrorism offences. i dont think they were throwing paint into jet engines on a milatary base Pure terror akin to the attacks 20 years ago. That paint will take hours to paint over.lol yiu think it just means painting over? They sprayed it into the jet engines the gona need stripping down and re building, prob out of action for weeks Good. In the meantime while it’s grounded saves some poor cunt getting bombed. That Dr a few weeks ago lost nine children due to one of these surveillance sortees indentifying her kids as a target. Well the people of gaza should of voted more Wisley,its not as if the populace didn't know what hamas qas all about before voting for em,and aww those poor Palestinians bet they didn't think the retaliation was gona be that bad while they were lining the streets clapping and laughing and dancing on Oct 7th when hamas were bringing the hostages back to gaza,stop trying to make out there innocents they was ecstatic on Oct 7th So all the kids that are being mass slaughtered aren't innocent? Amazing.talk to there parents they were the ones out in the streets celebrating was also there parents who voted hamas in moral of the story don't pick a fight you can't win,did hamas think that Israel would just bomb a couple of buildings after Oct 7th?Well they no in future if you kill 1000 Israelis they will kill 100,000 gazans Small children picked a fight they can't win? Amazing.No the people there parents voted into power did,perhaps there parents hatred of the country next door has consequences, Before you crack on with this line. Have a look at the choices they had and what happened in the elections there. " they voted hamas in who then went on to kill there rivals,its not like the people of gaza didn't know what hamas was all about before hand,and watching the pictures coming out of gaza the day they took the hostages id say most Palestinians were more than OK with what happend,what I do find strange is that they thought Israel wouldn't punish them as hard as they have,I do find it funny that you don't lay any of the blame on the Palestinians for the shit show they find themselves in now,anyway two bob yet again your backing the wrong horse like you usually do | |||
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", At the time it was reported 75% of Gazans were supportive of the attacks on Israelis. Reap what you sow. Where does that number come from? Who did the polling? The Palestinian Center for Policy Survey and Research (PCPSR) findings were published as international alarm grows over the spiralling Palestinian civilian toll in the Israeli counter-offensive against Hamas, now in its third month. Reuters 13Dec 2023 This number has been debunked by Israel as Hamas propaganda tho. Either way, I'd be interested in seeing the methodology and sample size of how they got that figure." Reading above the sample was 481 apparently from a population of over 2 million, something around 0.02% thoroughly representative. About as reliable as Israel saying they are not targeting civilians and hospitals. | |||
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"Whataboutery, along with straw man and ad hominem are some of the more common fallacies that are trotted out on a routine basis by people who defend the Israeli government's oppression of Palestinians. It's extremely tiresome and reveals that they don't like talking about the subject at hand. On the question of genocide itself. It's a term that's very poorly defined. Maybe because no country wants to admit that what they have done could be considered genocide. There isn't some magic percentage of a population that needs to be killed before it becomes something we should condemn. " You can't hide behind whataboutery allegations when people point out your own hypocrisy. If you care about Palestinians more than gays in the Middle Eastern countries or the Uyghur Muslims, there must be some reason to it. For example, people try to point out the hypocrisy of how right wingers tend to support Ukrainians and are happy to take Ukrainian refugees but don't care about other countries. But they have an answer - Blocking Russia in Ukraine protects them and Eastern European immigrants adapt better here. It's an honest answer whether you like it or not. If you can also come up with an honest reason to justify your selective outrage, no matter how I find it morally, I would accept it. I am just trying to understand how you justify that to yourself. | |||
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"You can't hide behind whataboutery allegations when people point out your own hypocrisy. If you care about Palestinians more than gays in the Middle Eastern countries or the Uyghur Muslims, there must be some reason to it. For example, people try to point out the hypocrisy of how right wingers tend to support Ukrainians and are happy to take Ukrainian refugees but don't care about other countries. But they have an answer - Blocking Russia in Ukraine protects them and Eastern European immigrants adapt better here. It's an honest answer whether you like it or not. If you can also come up with an honest reason to justify your selective outrage, no matter how I find it morally, I would accept it. I am just trying to understand how you justify that to yourself." There's no hypocrisy in talking about the I/P conflict whilst not also talking about human rights violations going on elsewhere. Just like campaigning for more funding for research to combat breast cancer doesn't mean one doesn't give a damn about prostrate cancer. It's just a game that people who defend the Israeli onslaught on the rights of Palestinians play because they feel uncomfortable being challenged. Let's say you started a thread on the oppression of Uyghurs or the oppression of gays in places like Saudi Arabia and someone came along and said - you hypocrite you're indulging in selective outrage because you aren't talking about what's happening in Gaza, what would your response be to that argument? | |||
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" You can find the UN special committee describing Israel’s warfare methods in Gaza consistent with genocide, including use of starvation as weapon of war. This is true. What your are looking, however, is more akin to a prosecution's statement. I find the the-genocide-might-not-be-genocide a strange hill for people to die on. If the ICJ rule there was no genocide, will you accept their judgement? If they did it would be interesting. The much more pertinent question would be the reverse. Would the genocide deniers, or even those who have been cheering it on, feel differently if it was somehow made officially a genocide? I don’t believe the legal threshold for genocide will be met. That’s not denial or endorsement it’s a view shaped on what law defines genocide as and what evidence is required to meet that bar. Along with that are the wars and events that have had many more deaths, and only 3 in history that have ever been classed as genocide. Like I said the bar seems extremely high. What concerns me is how some have already declared it a foregone conclusion. If the ICJ rules that it isn’t genocide, I worry how that will be received by those who have built their narrative around it. Fanatic reactions would follow, I have no doubt about that. " Fair play for you expressing concern over groups labelling the deliberate and systematic destruction of Palestinian people based on their ethnicity, nationality, religion, or race as "genocide". Meanwhile, there are other things going on that people are concerned with. | |||
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"The UK’s illegal war in Iraq cost estimates of 250,000-500,000 dead and two million homeless. The Chilcott and Levenson enquiry’s cost £18million with little accountability. I don’t recall 1.5 million protestors of that in london being prosecuted for terrorism offences. i dont think they were throwing paint into jet engines on a milatary base Pure terror akin to the attacks 20 years ago. That paint will take hours to paint over.lol yiu think it just means painting over? They sprayed it into the jet engines the gona need stripping down and re building, prob out of action for weeks Good. In the meantime while it’s grounded saves some poor cunt getting bombed. That Dr a few weeks ago lost nine children due to one of these surveillance sortees indentifying her kids as a target. Well the people of gaza should of voted more Wisley,its not as if the populace didn't know what hamas qas all about before voting for em,and aww those poor Palestinians bet they didn't think the retaliation was gona be that bad while they were lining the streets clapping and laughing and dancing on Oct 7th when hamas were bringing the hostages back to gaza,stop trying to make out there innocents they was ecstatic on Oct 7th So all the kids that are being mass slaughtered aren't innocent? Amazing.talk to there parents they were the ones out in the streets celebrating was also there parents who voted hamas in moral of the story don't pick a fight you can't win,did hamas think that Israel would just bomb a couple of buildings after Oct 7th?Well they no in future if you kill 1000 Israelis they will kill 100,000 gazans Small children picked a fight they can't win? Amazing.No the people there parents voted into power did,perhaps there parents hatred of the country next door has consequences, Before you crack on with this line. Have a look at the choices they had and what happened in the elections there. they voted hamas in who then went on to kill there rivals,its not like the people of gaza didn't know what hamas was all about before hand,and watching the pictures coming out of gaza the day they took the hostages id say most Palestinians were more than OK with what happend,what I do find strange is that they thought Israel wouldn't punish them as hard as they have,I do find it funny that you don't lay any of the blame on the Palestinians for the shit show they find themselves in now,anyway two bob yet again your backing the wrong horse like you usually do" You're correct, I don't lay any blame on ordinary Palestinian people for the IDF mass slaughtering them. Within the garbled misunderstanding of the situation that you presented. The only thing I can find that makes sense is the scale of the slaughter that the IDF are conducting. I can only assume Hamas knew what was coming. To what end, fuck knows. | |||
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" There's no hypocrisy in talking about the I/P conflict whilst not also talking about human rights violations going on elsewhere. " It's not just talking about it though. You want other people to actually do some action for one issue and yet you wouldn't personally do the same action over another issue. You are saying that UK is literally supporting genocide with Israel. Do you accept that you are also literally supporting genocide by buying Chinese products? " Just like campaigning for more funding for research to combat breast cancer doesn't mean one doesn't give a damn about prostrate cancer. " If you are campaigning more funding for breast cancer, there must be a reason to it. It doesn't have to mean that you don't give a fuck about prostate cancer. It could be just that someone you personally know suffered over breast cancer. Or you care about women more than men. These are all acceptable justifications. Do you have a similar justification on why you are being so vocal on the Israel Palestine issue over the others? " Let's say you started a thread on the oppression of Uyghurs or the oppression of gays in places like Saudi Arabia and someone came along and said - you hypocrite you're indulging in selective outrage because you aren't talking about what's happening in Gaza, what would your response be to that argument? " I am talking about gay rights in middle east now and I have spoken about it many times compared to the Israel Palestine issue. I do it because yes, I care about the gay rights more than the Palestinian cause and that's because I see one as a retaliation and another just outright extermination of someone just because of how they are born. You could agree or disagree with my views. But at least I am being honest | |||
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" You can find the UN special committee describing Israel’s warfare methods in Gaza consistent with genocide, including use of starvation as weapon of war. This is true. What your are looking, however, is more akin to a prosecution's statement. I find the the-genocide-might-not-be-genocide a strange hill for people to die on. If the ICJ rule there was no genocide, will you accept their judgement? If they did it would be interesting. The much more pertinent question would be the reverse. Would the genocide deniers, or even those who have been cheering it on, feel differently if it was somehow made officially a genocide? I don’t believe the legal threshold for genocide will be met. That’s not denial or endorsement it’s a view shaped on what law defines genocide as and what evidence is required to meet that bar. Along with that are the wars and events that have had many more deaths, and only 3 in history that have ever been classed as genocide. Like I said the bar seems extremely high. What concerns me is how some have already declared it a foregone conclusion. If the ICJ rules that it isn’t genocide, I worry how that will be received by those who have built their narrative around it. Fanatic reactions would follow, I have no doubt about that. Fair play for you expressing concern over groups labelling the deliberate and systematic destruction of Palestinian people based on their ethnicity, nationality, religion, or race as "genocide". Meanwhile, there are other things going on that people are concerned with. " It is very difficult to discuss these issues with you, I have made my points and I stand by them because they are based on logic not assumptions or gut feel. | |||
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" You can find the UN special committee describing Israel’s warfare methods in Gaza consistent with genocide, including use of starvation as weapon of war. This is true. What your are looking, however, is more akin to a prosecution's statement. I find the the-genocide-might-not-be-genocide a strange hill for people to die on. If the ICJ rule there was no genocide, will you accept their judgement? If they did it would be interesting. The much more pertinent question would be the reverse. Would the genocide deniers, or even those who have been cheering it on, feel differently if it was somehow made officially a genocide? I don’t believe the legal threshold for genocide will be met. That’s not denial or endorsement it’s a view shaped on what law defines genocide as and what evidence is required to meet that bar. Along with that are the wars and events that have had many more deaths, and only 3 in history that have ever been classed as genocide. Like I said the bar seems extremely high. What concerns me is how some have already declared it a foregone conclusion. If the ICJ rules that it isn’t genocide, I worry how that will be received by those who have built their narrative around it. Fanatic reactions would follow, I have no doubt about that. Fair play for you expressing concern over groups labelling the deliberate and systematic destruction of Palestinian people based on their ethnicity, nationality, religion, or race as "genocide". Meanwhile, there are other things going on that people are concerned with. It is very difficult to discuss these issues with you, I have made my points and I stand by them because they are based on logic not assumptions or gut feel. " I'm glad you find it difficult, it's supposed to be challenging. You understand my point though? You, and the media in general are focussing on pretty much everything except the tens of thousands of Palestinians being bombed and starved. 1. What about Hamas 2. What about Bob Vylan 3. What about Kneecap 4. What about the cost of fixing the plane 5. What about it's not actually genocide 6. What about etc etc. The interesting topic would be why are the media and why is the government concentrated on these things, instead of what's going on in Gaza. | |||
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"Well at least we now know what the Israeli plan is… according to their defence minister Round up all the Palestinians so they are living in Rafah, until a plan can be made for “mass relocation” So genocide… then followed by ethnic clensing Have to say….. mass relocation sound so much more palatable than ethnic clensing! "Genocide has not been established yet. Is the mass relocation mandatory? I'm assuming it must be if you are claiming ethnic cleansing? | |||
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"But at least I am being honest" You might think you are being honest. What I see is the same tactic I've seen for 50 odd years of debate when people feel they can't win an argument. Instead of discussing the subject further they talk about something completely different and if that doesn't work then they insinuate that I have some sinister motive. Been there, done that, although the T-shirt is worn out. | |||
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" You can find the UN special committee describing Israel’s warfare methods in Gaza consistent with genocide, including use of starvation as weapon of war. This is true. What your are looking, however, is more akin to a prosecution's statement. I find the the-genocide-might-not-be-genocide a strange hill for people to die on. If the ICJ rule there was no genocide, will you accept their judgement? If they did it would be interesting. The much more pertinent question would be the reverse. Would the genocide deniers, or even those who have been cheering it on, feel differently if it was somehow made officially a genocide? I don’t believe the legal threshold for genocide will be met. That’s not denial or endorsement it’s a view shaped on what law defines genocide as and what evidence is required to meet that bar. Along with that are the wars and events that have had many more deaths, and only 3 in history that have ever been classed as genocide. Like I said the bar seems extremely high. What concerns me is how some have already declared it a foregone conclusion. If the ICJ rules that it isn’t genocide, I worry how that will be received by those who have built their narrative around it. Fanatic reactions would follow, I have no doubt about that. Fair play for you expressing concern over groups labelling the deliberate and systematic destruction of Palestinian people based on their ethnicity, nationality, religion, or race as "genocide". Meanwhile, there are other things going on that people are concerned with. It is very difficult to discuss these issues with you, I have made my points and I stand by them because they are based on logic not assumptions or gut feel. I'm glad you find it difficult, it's supposed to be challenging. You understand my point though? You, and the media in general are focussing on pretty much everything except the tens of thousands of Palestinians being bombed and starved. 1. What about Hamas 2. What about Bob Vylan 3. What about Kneecap 4. What about the cost of fixing the plane 5. What about it's not actually genocide 6. What about etc etc. The interesting topic would be why are the media and why is the government concentrated on these things, instead of what's going on in Gaza." I disagree, the interesting question is why do you and others appoint yourselves as closed shop arbitrators and refuse to get into conversation that challenge your thinking. I have not given you any whataboutery, I have supplied fact as it is known, as in how genocide is classified, the likelihood of genocide being met, etc. I have not downplayed or called for more killing. I respect other views when they are balanced. | |||
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"Well at least we now know what the Israeli plan is… according to their defence minister Round up all the Palestinians so they are living in Rafah, until a plan can be made for “mass relocation” So genocide… then followed by ethnic clensing Have to say….. mass relocation sound so much more palatable than ethnic clensing! "I’ve never called it a genocide personally. As bad as the current situation clearly is, I don’t think it meets the thresholds. What I will say though is it’s pretty obvious the Israelis would love to ethnically cleanse Gaza & the West Bank. If Egypt, Lebanon & Jordan opened their borders & offered to take Palestinians in, the Israelis would obviously love it, whilst probably shooting at & bombing any Palestinians stubbornly refusing to leave their homes to help them make their minds up sharpish. | |||
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"But at least I am being honest You might think you are being honest. What I see is the same tactic I've seen for 50 odd years of debate when people feel they can't win an argument. Instead of discussing the subject further they talk about something completely different and if that doesn't work then they insinuate that I have some sinister motive. Been there, done that, although the T-shirt is worn out. " If you can't explain this blatant hypocrisy, you most probably have a sinister motive | |||
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" You can find the UN special committee describing Israel’s warfare methods in Gaza consistent with genocide, including use of starvation as weapon of war. This is true. What your are looking, however, is more akin to a prosecution's statement. I find the the-genocide-might-not-be-genocide a strange hill for people to die on. If the ICJ rule there was no genocide, will you accept their judgement? If they did it would be interesting. The much more pertinent question would be the reverse. Would the genocide deniers, or even those who have been cheering it on, feel differently if it was somehow made officially a genocide? I don’t believe the legal threshold for genocide will be met. That’s not denial or endorsement it’s a view shaped on what law defines genocide as and what evidence is required to meet that bar. Along with that are the wars and events that have had many more deaths, and only 3 in history that have ever been classed as genocide. Like I said the bar seems extremely high. What concerns me is how some have already declared it a foregone conclusion. If the ICJ rules that it isn’t genocide, I worry how that will be received by those who have built their narrative around it. Fanatic reactions would follow, I have no doubt about that. Fair play for you expressing concern over groups labelling the deliberate and systematic destruction of Palestinian people based on their ethnicity, nationality, religion, or race as "genocide". Meanwhile, there are other things going on that people are concerned with. It is very difficult to discuss these issues with you, I have made my points and I stand by them because they are based on logic not assumptions or gut feel. I'm glad you find it difficult, it's supposed to be challenging. You understand my point though? You, and the media in general are focussing on pretty much everything except the tens of thousands of Palestinians being bombed and starved. 1. What about Hamas 2. What about Bob Vylan 3. What about Kneecap 4. What about the cost of fixing the plane 5. What about it's not actually genocide 6. What about etc etc. The interesting topic would be why are the media and why is the government concentrated on these things, instead of what's going on in Gaza. I disagree, the interesting question is why do you and others appoint yourselves as closed shop arbitrators and refuse to get into conversation that challenge your thinking." Because our thinking is, we need to address the situation in Gaza, and the British government's involvement. Not what some bloke at Glastonbury said. " I have not given you any whataboutery, I have supplied fact as it is known, as in how genocide is classified, the likelihood of genocide being met, etc. I have not downplayed or called for more killing. I respect other views when they are balanced. " Then you're either entirely missing the point, or being deliberately obtuse. | |||
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"If you can't explain this blatant hypocrisy, you most probably have a sinister motive" You are just proving my point. | |||
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"If you can't explain this blatant hypocrisy, you most probably have a sinister motive You are just proving my point. " Nice coping mechanism. Seriously what story do you tell yourselves to explain this blatant hypocrisy? | |||
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"Nice coping mechanism. Seriously what story do you tell yourselves to explain this blatant hypocrisy?" I don't need any coping mechanism, I've encountered people with extremely poor debating skills many times before so it's kind of like water off of a duck's back. If you want to talk about the subject at hand then fine let's talk about it. If not that's fine too. | |||
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"Honest question. How many of you stopped buying Chinese products because of the genocide they are committing on the Uyghurs? And want UK to stop any dealings with all middle eastern countries for their extermination of Gays?" I’ve pointed out western hypocrisy regarding China constantly. PS, it was a right winger (Nixon) who started the ball rolling with them again after the Korean War. Who cares about Authoritarianism when The West can gorge itself on cheap labour eh? As regards avoiding Chinese goods, as you know, it’s difficult if not impossible. Same with the Middle East. We fight for ‘freedom & democracy’ whilst selling weapons to & doing business with authoritarian regimes. Because ultimately it is primarily about MONEY above all else. On the individual level, there are only so many protests people can make, assuming people have the usual things going on their lives, families, jobs, kids etc so it’s usually a case of pick a cause or two out of many available I guess maybe? | |||
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"Nice coping mechanism. Seriously what story do you tell yourselves to explain this blatant hypocrisy? I don't need any coping mechanism, I've encountered people with extremely poor debating skills many times before so it's kind of like water off of a duck's back. If you want to talk about the subject at hand then fine let's talk about it. If not that's fine too. " I am talking about the subject in hand. What kind of genocide typically gets you outraged and what kind doesn't? Is it based on who does the genocide and who is the victim? | |||
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"Nice coping mechanism. Seriously what story do you tell yourselves to explain this blatant hypocrisy? I don't need any coping mechanism, I've encountered people with extremely poor debating skills many times before so it's kind of like water off of a duck's back. If you want to talk about the subject at hand then fine let's talk about it. If not that's fine too. I am talking about the subject in hand. What kind of genocide typically gets you outraged and what kind doesn't? Is it based on who does the genocide and who is the victim?" I think it’s always based on who’s doing the bad stuff. Some groups decisions on who they like and don’t like I find very curious. Cheering for a philosophy that demands their murder. Kinda like turkeys cheering for Xmas For the record I have every sympathy for the innocent people of Gaza. I also have every sympathy for the innocent people of Isreal. And Tibet. Ukraine…. | |||
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"Honest question. How many of you stopped buying Chinese products because of the genocide they are committing on the Uyghurs? And want UK to stop any dealings with all middle eastern countries for their extermination of Gays? I’ve pointed out western hypocrisy regarding China constantly. PS, it was a right winger (Nixon) who started the ball rolling with them again after the Korean War. Who cares about Authoritarianism when The West can gorge itself on cheap labour eh? As regards avoiding Chinese goods, as you know, it’s difficult if not impossible. " It's personally difficult for you. So you do not want to treat China the way you want the government to treat Israel. Have you ever considered the fact that the government also has geopolitical reasons why they just can't sacrifice the relationship with Israel? " Same with the Middle East. We fight for ‘freedom & democracy’ whilst selling weapons to & doing business with authoritarian regimes. Because ultimately it is primarily about MONEY above all else. " Middle eastern countries have had death penalty against gays for decades. You don't see people fighting the same way they fight for the Palestine issue. The best I have seen the left do is when they made a few tweets criticising the FA for having football world cup there. The worst I have seen them do is to defend these countries by saying "That's just their culture. Westerners shouldn't interfere in that matter" " On the individual level, there are only so many protests people can make, assuming people have the usual things going on their lives, families, jobs, kids etc so it’s usually a case of pick a cause or two out of many available I guess maybe?" I understand why you may not want to boycott Chinese products because it's difficult. But the left has been watching all kinds of atrocities around the world all these years without doing anything in the name of protests. But over the last year, I have seen them protest almost every weekend in London. All of a sudden, they found time? They definitely care about this issue more than the other? | |||
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"I am talking about the subject in hand. What kind of genocide typically gets you outraged and what kind doesn't? Is it based on who does the genocide and who is the victim?" As I tried to explain earlier the definition of genocide is so badly framed that I don't know whether the term applies or not in all kinds of cases. On Gaza in particular there seems to have been so-called "genocidal" statements from members of the Israeli government but it'll be up to the ICJ to determine if the Israeli government is guilty. On the treatment of Uyghurs and gays again I don't know if this counts as genocide. The word is being banded about as a crude linguistic truncheon rather than an analytical tool, so it's probably best to avoid the term altogether in debate. I tend to focus on questions of democracy and ethics. And in extreme situations ethics extends into judgement about terrorism and war crimes. The particular identity of the parties is irrelevant to any of this. In other words terrorism and war crimes are wrong no matter who the victims or perpetrators are. | |||
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"I care about the gay rights more than the Palestinian cause and that's because I see one as a retaliation and another just outright extermination of someone just because of how they are born." Do you not see that one extreme intepretation of what you are saying here is that gays are innocent but Palestinian children aren't? I don't think that's what you meant but can you see how it might be interpreted that way, in the context of 16,000 children being recently killed in Gaza? "Middle eastern countries have had death penalty against gays for decades. You don't see people fighting the same way they fight for the Palestine issue. The best I have seen the left do is when they made a few tweets criticising the FA for having football world cup there. The worst I have seen them do is to defend these countries by saying "That's just their culture. Westerners shouldn't interfere in that matter"" I'm old enough to remember when homosexuality was a crime in the UK. It was the right who clung on to this idea and the left who fought for gay liberation. Remember Thatcher's Section 28? Likewise now on trans issues. The left are for tolerance and inclusion. You seem to have an upside-down view of the world. | |||
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" You can find the UN special committee describing Israel’s warfare methods in Gaza consistent with genocide, including use of starvation as weapon of war. This is true. What your are looking, however, is more akin to a prosecution's statement. I find the the-genocide-might-not-be-genocide a strange hill for people to die on. If the ICJ rule there was no genocide, will you accept their judgement? If they did it would be interesting. The much more pertinent question would be the reverse. Would the genocide deniers, or even those who have been cheering it on, feel differently if it was somehow made officially a genocide? I don’t believe the legal threshold for genocide will be met. That’s not denial or endorsement it’s a view shaped on what law defines genocide as and what evidence is required to meet that bar. Along with that are the wars and events that have had many more deaths, and only 3 in history that have ever been classed as genocide. Like I said the bar seems extremely high. What concerns me is how some have already declared it a foregone conclusion. If the ICJ rules that it isn’t genocide, I worry how that will be received by those who have built their narrative around it. Fanatic reactions would follow, I have no doubt about that. Fair play for you expressing concern over groups labelling the deliberate and systematic destruction of Palestinian people based on their ethnicity, nationality, religion, or race as "genocide". Meanwhile, there are other things going on that people are concerned with. It is very difficult to discuss these issues with you, I have made my points and I stand by them because they are based on logic not assumptions or gut feel. I'm glad you find it difficult, it's supposed to be challenging. You understand my point though? You, and the media in general are focussing on pretty much everything except the tens of thousands of Palestinians being bombed and starved. 1. What about Hamas 2. What about Bob Vylan 3. What about Kneecap 4. What about the cost of fixing the plane 5. What about it's not actually genocide 6. What about etc etc. The interesting topic would be why are the media and why is the government concentrated on these things, instead of what's going on in Gaza. I disagree, the interesting question is why do you and others appoint yourselves as closed shop arbitrators and refuse to get into conversation that challenge your thinking. Because our thinking is, we need to address the situation in Gaza, and the British government's involvement. Not what some bloke at Glastonbury said. I have not given you any whataboutery, I have supplied fact as it is known, as in how genocide is classified, the likelihood of genocide being met, etc. I have not downplayed or called for more killing. I respect other views when they are balanced. Then you're either entirely missing the point, or being deliberately obtuse. " A perfect end to our conversation | |||
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" It's personally difficult for you. So you do not want to treat China the way you want the government to treat Israel. Have you ever considered the fact that the government also has geopolitical reasons why they just can't sacrifice the relationship with Israel? Middle eastern countries have had death penalty against gays for decades. You don't see people fighting the same way they fight for the Palestine issue. The best I have seen the left do is when they made a few tweets criticising the FA for having football world cup there. The worst I have seen them do is to defend these countries by saying "That's just their culture. Westerners shouldn't interfere in that matter" I understand why you may not want to boycott Chinese products because it's difficult. But the left has been watching all kinds of atrocities around the world all these years without doing anything in the name of protests. But over the last year, I have seen them protest almost every weekend in London. All of a sudden, they found time? They definitely care about this issue more than the other?" ‘Ideally’ I would like the government to treat Israel & China similarly, ie begin boycotts of both countries because I do not approve of what both the Chinese & Israeli regimes are doing. But that isn’t going to happen. Yes you are right, the reasons the UK Gov acts as it does usually comes down to geopolitics. Didn’t Biden say ‘if there wasn’t an Israel they would have to create one’? But look at all the trouble it’s caused over the last 8 decades… As regards the left wrestling with its conscious I think in the first instance the left want the killing to stop. One side is doing all of the killing now & it is backed by western governments. The aim then is to get a ceasefire, then negotiated released of hostages, then we move on, repairing damage etc Gays, as much as I agree with you about their treatment in the Middle East, as far as I’m aware, aren’t being killed in the same numbers as Palestinians are currently? I don’t think 50,000 gays have been murdered in the Middle East since October 7th 2023? I’m prepared to be proven wrong though. | |||
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"I am talking about the subject in hand. What kind of genocide typically gets you outraged and what kind doesn't? Is it based on who does the genocide and who is the victim? As I tried to explain earlier the definition of genocide is so badly framed that I don't know whether the term applies or not in all kinds of cases. On Gaza in particular there seems to have been so-called "genocidal" statements from members of the Israeli government but it'll be up to the ICJ to determine if the Israeli government is guilty. On the treatment of Uyghurs and gays again I don't know if this counts as genocide. The word is being banded about as a crude linguistic truncheon rather than an analytical tool, so it's probably best to avoid the term altogether in debate. " This is one of the most confusing posts I have ever read. Are you saying that the Gaza situation is a genocide but the Uighurs situation isn't? And who cares what "genocide" technically means? End of the day, you have innocents killed or put in camps in masses. " I tend to focus on questions of democracy and ethics. And in extreme situations ethics extends into judgement about terrorism and war crimes. The particular identity of the parties is irrelevant to any of this. In other words terrorism and war crimes are wrong no matter who the victims or perpetrators are. " In which way do you think, the situation of "democracy and ethics" is worse in Palestine compared to China and other middle eastern countries? | |||
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"I care about the gay rights more than the Palestinian cause and that's because I see one as a retaliation and another just outright extermination of someone just because of how they are born. Do you not see that one extreme intepretation of what you are saying here is that gays are innocent but Palestinian children aren't? " No, they would be wrong interpretation. I said I personally consider one situation relatively worse. That doesn't mean Palestine children aren't innocent. " I'm old enough to remember when homosexuality was a crime in the UK. It was the right who clung on to this idea and the left who fought for gay liberation. Remember Thatcher's Section 28? " So why does the left simp for Middle eastern countries having death penalties against gays? " Likewise now on trans issues. The left are for tolerance and inclusion. You seem to have an upside-down view of the world. " I don't think the left ever cared about tolerance or inclusion, just like they never cared about women's rights. Women's rights were thrown under the bus when Trans issues came up. Gay rights were thrown under the bus when Islamists went against LGBTQ. | |||
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" ‘Ideally’ I would like the government to treat Israel & China similarly, ie begin boycotts of both countries because I do not approve of what both the Chinese & Israeli regimes are doing. But that isn’t going to happen. " So why didn't we see such protests against UK's relationship with China? The Uighurs genocide was happening long before October 7. " Yes you are right, the reasons the UK Gov acts as it does usually comes down to geopolitics. Didn’t Biden say ‘if there wasn’t an Israel they would have to create one’? But look at all the trouble it’s caused over the last 8 decades… " It's lot more complex than that. If given a chance, Israel's neighbours would destroy Israel in minutes. They won't even bat an eye. If you make Israel weaker, you are essentially signing their death warrant and you will be in some way responsible for what happens to Israel after that. The whole idea that you can get them to a table to negotiate is a pipe dream. " Gays, as much as I agree with you about their treatment in the Middle East, as far as I’m aware, aren’t being killed in the same numbers as Palestinians are currently? I don’t think 50,000 gays have been murdered in the Middle East since October 7th 2023? I’m prepared to be proven wrong though. " They have death penalty for gays which means they are living their lives hiding their sexuality. If Israel says they will impose death penalty on Muslims and Muslims in Israel pretend to not follow religion to avoid being killed, will you think that's justified? | |||
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" So why didn't we see such protests against UK's relationship with China? The Uighurs genocide was happening long before October 7. It's lot more complex than that. If given a chance, Israel's neighbours would destroy Israel in minutes. They won't even bat an eye. If you make Israel weaker, you are essentially signing their death warrant and you will be in some way responsible for what happens to Israel after that. The whole idea that you can get them to a table to negotiate is a pipe dream. They have death penalty for gays which means they are living their lives hiding their sexuality. If Israel says they will impose death penalty on Muslims and Muslims in Israel pretend to not follow religion to avoid being killed, will you think that's justified?" Why didn’t we see protests on the streets on same scale over China? I don’t know. You’d have to ask the professional left why. I don’t agree with what the Chinese have been doing & I’ve made my views known on social media, same as I do on Israel/Palestine. Israel is a problem of The West’s making. Let’s remind ourselves that it was largely European intolerance that ignited Zionism as an idea again after 2000 years away, expecting no kickbacks. They have had kickbacks. They are still having kickbacks. No, I don’t think people should have to hide their sexuality. But as has been said, homosexuality was illegal in the UK until relatively recently. Some of the more ‘Conservative’ parts of the world still haven’t caught up with & joined our more libertarian way of thinking (yet). | |||
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" It's lot more complex than that. If given a chance, Israel's neighbours would destroy Israel in minutes. They won't even bat an eye. If you make Israel weaker, you are essentially signing their death warrant and you will be in some way responsible for what happens to Israel after that. The whole idea that you can get them to a table to negotiate is a pipe dream. " But the Arab countries had been negotiating. The rhetoric had definitely softened. The Abraham Accords had been signed, trade agreements were in place - that's why Iran wanted to stir the pot again. | |||
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" So why does the left simp for Middle eastern countries having death penalties against gays? " For the same reason that the Right "simps" for Israel when its ultra liberal attitude to things like abortion, pornography, prostitution and transgender rights are utterly at odds with Conservative core values. You don't have to agree with everything a culture does in order to be sympathetic with its plight. During the Rwandan Genocide, did you accuse anyone of "simping" because the Tutsis were big on FGM? | |||
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" Israel is a problem of The West’s making. " "The West" didn't go far enough. There should be an Israel, a Kurdistan, possibly a Druze nation and a home for Christians in the Middle East, with at least states of some kind for various other religions/ethnicities in the region, too. The majority of Jews in Israel are from non-European Islamic majority countries, who were persecuted across history. The number of Christians, for example, have declined in all other countries in the Middle East, work massacres even over the past year... The West didn't go far enough by neglecting to create a Kurdistan - Kurds are harshly persecuted still. Yes, France and England got many things wrong, but Israel was something that they got sort-of right. The Middle East needs MORE states along ethnic and religious lines, not fewer. THAT would have solved most problems eating up the region. But, when viewed through a Western lens (ignorance that masquerades as armchair expert), people think tinkering with a few borders and establishing a caliphate or two (and eradicating non Muslims) would solve all of the issues (tongue in cheek there, but things go get oversimplified). If Israel is a "problem" (of course, if there is a problem, that problem must be Israel, not any other entity, state, ideology...), then the entire Middle East is a "Western" problem. If that's judged by wars, friction and persecution, then it always was a problem. Most non-dominant ethnicities and religions in the Middle East dream of having their own Israel, and have died (or are in decline, through genocide and ethnic cleansing) because they don't. | |||
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" The Middle East needs MORE states along ethnic and religious lines, not fewer. THAT would have solved most problems eating up the region. " I can't think of any examples where the reality of doing that hasn't created more problems: Pakistan / India Northern Ireland / RoI Greek Cyprus / Turkish Cyprus South Sudan / North Sudan | |||
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" The Middle East needs MORE states along ethnic and religious lines, not fewer. THAT would have solved most problems eating up the region. I can't think of any examples where the reality of doing that hasn't created more problems: Pakistan / India Northern Ireland / RoI Greek Cyprus / Turkish Cyprus South Sudan / North Sudan " Syria Iraq Lebanon Yemen ...what happens to the non-dominant religion or ethnicity there? They quietly die out without polluting your screens with 24/7 rolling coverage of dead, dying and mourning (it's usually limited to one news cycle). So it's okay. Check out demographics for Christians and Jews (and others) in those countries over the past 100 years. | |||
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" Syria Iraq Lebanon Yemen ...what happens to the non-dominant religion or ethnicity there? They quietly die out without polluting your screens with 24/7 rolling coverage of dead, dying and mourning (it's usually limited to one news cycle). So it's okay. Check out demographics for Christians and Jews (and others) in those countries over the past 100 years." You think that slicing those countries up further and allocating different bits to different ethnicities will solve that? | |||
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" Why didn’t we see protests on the streets on same scale over China? I don’t know. You’d have to ask the professional left why. I don’t agree with what the Chinese have been doing & I’ve made my views known on social media, same as I do on Israel/Palestine. " In that case, do you agree that the "professional left" are hypocrites? " Israel is a problem of The West’s making. Let’s remind ourselves that it was largely European intolerance that ignited Zionism as an idea again after 2000 years away, expecting no kickbacks. They have had kickbacks. They are still having kickbacks. " And the rest of the world was totally tolerant to the Jews? " No, I don’t think people should have to hide their sexuality. But as has been said, homosexuality was illegal in the UK until relatively recently. Some of the more ‘Conservative’ parts of the world still haven’t caught up with & joined our more libertarian way of thinking (yet). " UK abolished death penalty for gays sometime in the 19th century. It was illegal after that and was legalised in 1967. I wouldn't call that "recently" by any means. Either way, you have multiple Middle eastern countries attempting to exterminate gays with their death penalty laws. Why no protests over that? Why not ask the government to stop dealing with those p countries? | |||
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" So why does the left simp for Middle eastern countries having death penalties against gays? For the same reason that the Right "simps" for Israel when its ultra liberal attitude to things like abortion, pornography, prostitution and transgender rights are utterly at odds with Conservative core values. You don't have to agree with everything a culture does in order to be sympathetic with its plight. During the Rwandan Genocide, did you accuse anyone of "simping" because the Tutsis were big on FGM?" But that was not my point. The left pretends that they don't like "genocide" no matter who the victims/killers are. If that's true, they should have done a similar level of protests against China and the Middle Eastern countries. If they want UK to stop have any dealings with Israel, they should want UK to stop having any dealings with those countries too, right? | |||
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" In that case, do you agree that the "professional left" are hypocrites? " The left can be just as hypocritical as everyone else. No argument there, but I'm not sure what you're arguing here: are you saying that it's invalid to protest the wholesale killing of some people because you didn't equally protest the killing of other people? | |||
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" In that case, do you agree that the "professional left" are hypocrites? The left can be just as hypocritical as everyone else. No argument there, but I'm not sure what you're arguing here: are you saying that it's invalid to protest the wholesale killing of some people because you didn't equally protest the killing of other people?" It's totally fine with protesting against this issue. I just asking what makes the left prioritise this issue over the others. Is it the characteristics of the victims? Is it the characteristics of the people who are perceived to do be committing the genocide? | |||
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" The left pretends that they don't like "genocide" no matter who the victims/killers are. If that's true, they should have done a similar level of protests against China and the Middle Eastern countries. If they want UK to stop have any dealings with Israel, they should want UK to stop having any dealings with those countries too, right?" If you're claiming selective moral outrage, then you have a point. We both know the Realpolitik of why governments are unwilling risk trade ties with China over the Uyghurs and there is certainly hypocrisy there. That doesn't invalidate the outrage over what's happening in Gaza though, does it? | |||
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" Syria Iraq Lebanon Yemen ...what happens to the non-dominant religion or ethnicity there? They quietly die out without polluting your screens with 24/7 rolling coverage of dead, dying and mourning (it's usually limited to one news cycle). So it's okay. Check out demographics for Christians and Jews (and others) in those countries over the past 100 years. You think that slicing those countries up further and allocating different bits to different ethnicities will solve that?" It certainly won’t solve things, it will likely just ignite more conflict, not less. We cannot right every wrong, The Jews were kicked out of the area by Romans 2000 years ago & that should have been that. The indigenous Australians & indigenous North Americans would probably like their lands back too given the choice, let’s right those wrongs too shall we? European intolerance towards Jews created the current situation & this clearly unsatisfactory Western half baked ‘solution’. | |||
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" The left pretends that they don't like "genocide" no matter who the victims/killers are. If that's true, they should have done a similar level of protests against China and the Middle Eastern countries. If they want UK to stop have any dealings with Israel, they should want UK to stop having any dealings with those countries too, right? If you're claiming selective moral outrage, then you have a point. We both know the Realpolitik of why governments are unwilling risk trade ties with China over the Uyghurs and there is certainly hypocrisy there. That doesn't invalidate the outrage over what's happening in Gaza though, does it?" I am not asking about the government though. The left has shown lot of outrage around this issue, protesting almost every week. But before the October 7 attack, they have mostly been silent on the other issues I mentioned. Surely there must be something special about the Gaza issue over the Uighurs or Gays in the middle-east that kicked this off? | |||
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" It's totally fine with protesting against this issue. I just asking what makes the left prioritise this issue over the others. Is it the characteristics of the victims? Is it the characteristics of the people who are perceived to do be committing the genocide?" Wel some things just seem to capture the public mood more than others. I'm disappointed with the lack of concern of the atrocities in Africa, but that's yet another thing. For me, the biggest objection to the wholesale killing in Gaza is the creeping narrative that the civilian victims somehow brought it on themselves, that a photo of a kid with a Hamas headband means that every Gazan child is a nascent terrorist and therefore fair game. | |||
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" In that case, do you agree that the "professional left" are hypocrites? And the rest of the world was totally tolerant to the Jews? UK abolished death penalty for gays sometime in the 19th century. It was illegal after that and was legalised in 1967. I wouldn't call that "recently" by any means. Either way, you have multiple Middle eastern countries attempting to exterminate gays with their death penalty laws. Why no protests over that? Why not ask the government to stop dealing with those p countries?" Maybe the left aren’t on the streets over the Uyghurs because the The West aren’t supplying technology & weaponry to kill Uyghurs? As I said, I don’t know you’d have to ask them. Why aren’t the right wing on the streets if they feel so strongly about China? They have their smaller pro Israel demonstrations, so why is protest exclusively the Left’s domain? I don’t remember the Ottomans incinerating 6 million Jews. Again, with the Gays, why aren’t the right wing out on the streets? Are there no gay right wingers? | |||
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" It's totally fine with protesting against this issue. I just asking what makes the left prioritise this issue over the others. Is it the characteristics of the victims? Is it the characteristics of the people who are perceived to do be committing the genocide? Wel some things just seem to capture the public mood more than others. I'm disappointed with the lack of concern of the atrocities in Africa, but that's yet another thing. For me, the biggest objection to the wholesale killing in Gaza is the creeping narrative that the civilian victims somehow brought it on themselves, that a photo of a kid with a Hamas headband means that every Gazan child is a nascent terrorist and therefore fair game." I agree. The carnage inflicted on Gaza goes way beyond a proportionate response. Just as the allies went too far at Dresden in WWII, Israel has overstepped the mark in Gaza. Any right minded person can see that. | |||
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" The left has shown lot of outrage around this issue, protesting almost every week. But before the October 7 attack, they have mostly been silent on the other issues I mentioned. Surely there must be something special about the Gaza issue over the Uighurs or Gays in the middle-east that kicked this off?" The outrage is most definitely not limited to "the left". There is a stack of Conservative figures who are on record condemning what Israel is doing. Your average Lefty has very little time for Likud in general and less time for the likes of Netanyahu and Ben Gvir. There is definitely a feeling that the formerly oppressed are relishing now being the oppressor, so that's probably part of it. This normally gets a blanket accusation of ANTI-SEMITE though. Is that where you're going with it? | |||
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" I don’t remember the Ottomans incinerating 6 million Jews. " Jews were often terribly persecuted under the Ottomans (directly and indirectly). Then there was the Armenian genocide. The Ottomans had some good and bad periods. A benevolent empire would be a close second choice to independent ethnic and religious states in the Middle East, but a benevolent empire is a bit of a pipe dream. | |||
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" I don’t remember the Ottomans incinerating 6 million Jews. Jews were often terribly persecuted under the Ottomans (directly and indirectly). Then there was the Armenian genocide. The Ottomans had some good and bad periods. A benevolent empire would be a close second choice to independent ethnic and religious states in the Middle East, but a benevolent empire is a bit of a pipe dream." The Ottomans inflicted massacres and genocide an many groups. | |||
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" I don’t remember the Ottomans incinerating 6 million Jews. Jews were often terribly persecuted under the Ottomans (directly and indirectly). Then there was the Armenian genocide. The Ottomans had some good and bad periods. A benevolent empire would be a close second choice to independent ethnic and religious states in the Middle East, but a benevolent empire is a bit of a pipe dream." I think I’d much rather have been a Jew living under the Ottomans than the Nazis all things considered. There are still 9000 Jews living in Iran by the way, who are free to leave, but don’t. | |||
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" I think I’d much rather have been a Jew living under the Ottomans than the Nazis all things considered. " You're right... It's all about degrees of persecution. | |||
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" The Ottomans inflicted massacres and genocide an many groups." Exactly. | |||
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"Why aren't people out on the streets protesting about the grooming gangs scandal? It's about time we started righting wrongs in our own country." There are an awful lot of wrongs that still need righting - the PPE scandal, Windrush compensation, Russian money, Prince Andrew's accountability...the list goes on. Unfortunately the right wing press seems to buzz on stoking fear based on ethnicity - it's not just grooming gangs but PAKISTANI grooming gangs. Not just a youth gang but a SOMALI youth gang . The perpetrators of organised child sex abuse in the UK are overwhelmingly white male, but the phrase "British grooming gangs" is never used. | |||
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"Stoking fear? I see it as reporting a pattern were mainly men of Pakistani heritage where grooming white girls for their sexual gratification. " Why do you think that the press prefers the term "sex ring" or "network" when the perpetrators are white British rather than "gang"? Why is white ethnicity never mentioned in those cases but non-white ethnicity is always mentioned? | |||
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" It's totally fine with protesting against this issue. I just asking what makes the left prioritise this issue over the others. Is it the characteristics of the victims? Is it the characteristics of the people who are perceived to do be committing the genocide? Wel some things just seem to capture the public mood more than others. I'm disappointed with the lack of concern of the atrocities in Africa, but that's yet another thing. " That effectively means the outrage is controlled by the media. And China does a pretty good job in stopping any media from going near those camps. " For me, the biggest objection to the wholesale killing in Gaza is the creeping narrative that the civilian victims somehow brought it on themselves, that a photo of a kid with a Hamas headband means that every Gazan child is a nascent terrorist and therefore fair game." That's exactly what China said about the Uighurs too. About gays in the middle east? I guess people who commit such a sin do not deserve to live anyway. You know what happened to the women who dared to protest against Hijab? Atrocities are committed all over the region. Except that the people pushing for the narrative would tell you "The west shouldn't interfere in our internal issues. This is our culture" when they are the one who are committing the atrocities. It's only when they are victims that they really want the West to do something about it. And the left in the west keeps falling for whatever is fed by them. | |||
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