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Working class only: Whitehall
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By *otMe66 OP Man 40 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
The Labour government is pulling apart the main civil service internship programme by restricting applicants to lower socio economic backgrounds. The restrictive measure will also be judged by their parents occupation when they were 14. The aim is to increase working class representation in Whitehall.
It appears the Labour party are engineering the future of Whitehall at the expense of ability, I guess this is a reflection of UK politics in general. However to manipulate the "civil service" by removing ability in favour of predetermined social standing measures is very worrying it is prejudice, playing out like Animal farm.
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My dad was working class. He started working in the civil service in the 60s with just a few O levels after managing to get into Grammar school. He eventually became strategy director or the NDA,
Rising right through the levels.
How about they just recruit the best people for the jobs and forget about labels!! They keep banging on about equality yet all they want to do is label people all the time. Idiots. |
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By *otMe66 OP Man 40 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
Why should someone’s chance at a civil service role depend on what their parents did for a living when they were 14?
The only reason to prioritise such a factor is to deploy an authoritarian, class based core at the centre of the civil service. It is an ideological decision that serves no purpose other than to prejudice!
Labour are dividing the nation by choosing ideology over ability, and it plays out perfectly to those who believe success should be punished, and are likely defect to the hard left under Corbyn. |
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By (user no longer on site) 40 weeks ago
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"Are working class people not able?
Ability should determine that "
But if working class children are less likely to have a degree due to costs isn't it better to open that job up to people without a degree but able? |
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By *otMe66 OP Man 40 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"Are working class people not able?
Ability should determine that
But if working class children are less likely to have a degree due to costs isn't it better to open that job up to people without a degree but able?"
How do you measure able? |
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"Are working class people not able?
Ability should determine that
But if working class children are less likely to have a degree due to costs isn't it better to open that job up to people without a degree but able?"
Surely not if they require a degree to do the job? I dunno, a law degree for example because you’re in a department drafting legislation documents. But if their mon or dad was a care worker, that’s even better than a law degree? |
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Can just imagine the two leftie liberals interviewing a black person who’s one parent was a human rights barrister and the other was a Starbucks barista.
The never ending yes - no cycle would blow the minds. |
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By (user no longer on site) 40 weeks ago
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"Are working class people not able?
Ability should determine that
But if working class children are less likely to have a degree due to costs isn't it better to open that job up to people without a degree but able?
How do you measure able? "
If money means able ...then you have your world!!
I actually believe that people who can't afford a degree are still able people. Giving them a job that's monitored for a set period of time? Could measure able |
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By (user no longer on site) 40 weeks ago
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"Can just imagine the two leftie liberals interviewing a black person who’s one parent was a human rights barrister and the other was a Starbucks barista.
The never ending yes - no cycle would blow the minds. "
Glad you show your colour when you boil everything down to race  |
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The Summer Internship Programme is limited to 200 people, will last for just two months and candidates need to have a 2.2 degree or to be expected to get one.
The Fast Stream scheme is still open to all candidates with 2.2's no matter what their background and people will only be selected on merit.
SIP is designed to give a tiny number of working class applicants some experience and prepare them for applying for the FS.
Yes, it's only helping people from a poorer background but it's not "engineering the future of Whitehall at the expense of ability" as people will still only become civil servants on merit. |
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By *otMe66 OP Man 40 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"Are working class people not able?
Ability should determine that
But if working class children are less likely to have a degree due to costs isn't it better to open that job up to people without a degree but able?
How do you measure able?
If money means able ...then you have your world!!
I actually believe that people who can't afford a degree are still able people. Giving them a job that's monitored for a set period of time? Could measure able"
That is not giving a role to someone who is able, to do that you would need to know they were able. So how do you measure their ability to do the role? |
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By (user no longer on site) 40 weeks ago
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"Are working class people not able?
Ability should determine that
But if working class children are less likely to have a degree due to costs isn't it better to open that job up to people without a degree but able?
How do you measure able?
If money means able ...then you have your world!!
I actually believe that people who can't afford a degree are still able people. Giving them a job that's monitored for a set period of time? Could measure able
That is not giving a role to someone who is able, to do that you would need to know they were able. So how do you measure their ability to do the role? "
Interviews? |
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By *otMe66 OP Man 40 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"The Summer Internship Programme is limited to 200 people, will last for just two months and candidates need to have a 2.2 degree or to be expected to get one.
The Fast Stream scheme is still open to all candidates with 2.2's no matter what their background and people will only be selected on merit.
SIP is designed to give a tiny number of working class applicants some experience and prepare them for applying for the FS.
Yes, it's only helping people from a poorer background but it's not "engineering the future of Whitehall at the expense of ability" as people will still only become civil servants on merit."
Your post is a contradiction.
I agree initial numbers are low however, SIP is now being explicitly reserved for applicants from lower socio economic backgrounds, based on parental occupation at age 14, a criteria unrelated to personal ability. Importantly, successful interns are fast tracked in the Fast Stream selection process. That is preferential treatment, however it’s framed. |
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It's not giving jobs to people who are unable. It's giving 200 working class people 8 weeks of work experience in the summer.
They'll still need to get at least a 2.2 degree to apply for the Fast Stream and will only be hired for an actual job if they merit it. |
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By *otMe66 OP Man 40 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"Are working class people not able?
Ability should determine that
But if working class children are less likely to have a degree due to costs isn't it better to open that job up to people without a degree but able?
How do you measure able?
If money means able ...then you have your world!!
I actually believe that people who can't afford a degree are still able people. Giving them a job that's monitored for a set period of time? Could measure able
That is not giving a role to someone who is able, to do that you would need to know they were able. So how do you measure their ability to do the role?
Interviews?"
Interviews are a given, but how do you choose on ability if the criteria is based on an applicants parents occupation when they were 14?
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By *otMe66 OP Man 40 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"It's not giving jobs to people who are unable. It's giving 200 working class people 8 weeks of work experience in the summer.
They'll still need to get at least a 2.2 degree to apply for the Fast Stream and will only be hired for an actual job if they merit it."
The Labour party are applying prejudice in the selection process. |
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"Are working class people not able?
Ability should determine that
But if working class children are less likely to have a degree due to costs isn't it better to open that job up to people without a degree but able?
How do you measure able?
If money means able ...then you have your world!!
I actually believe that people who can't afford a degree are still able people. Giving them a job that's monitored for a set period of time? Could measure able"
We almost agree on this which never thought I’d say lol, but for a couple of facts…
1. Anyone can get a student loan and go uni. Even people with very few GCSE’s can do an access course and get in.
2. Giving a chance to someone with no experience and no qualifications over someone with experience and qualifications, because their dad was a cleaner in the local library is just nonsensical. That person get the job and then goes on to fuck up the legal documents for a child in care who’s there to be protected from an abusive parent. The parent gets care back and continues to abuse the child for years until the kid takes their own life.
Your counter argument is probably going to be “they will be supervised”? So we have to pay two people to do one persons job because we gave the job to someone based on their dad’s work history and not their ability to do the job?
But I do agree that just having a degree doesn’t necessarily make them a better applicant. I worked at university graduations for 18 years meeting probably over a million people and some of them could barely tie their own shoe laces. And I include PhD graduates in that.
I saw a job for a van driver advertised recently and they were asking for degree level education. Absolutely ridiculous |
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For right-winger knicker twisters so concerned with a fair playing field...
Let's turn it around - private tution is now only available for students from higher socio-economic backgrounds, a criteria unrelated to personal ability.
So shall we ban private tuition?
What about state-sponsored extra help for kids struggling at school, should that be stopped?
This whole story is missing the point that you still need at least a 2.2 degree to enter the Fast Stream and everyone is filtered by merit regardless of their socio-economic background or whether they did 8 weeks of work experience.
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By *otMe66 OP Man 40 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"For right-winger knicker twisters so concerned with a fair playing field...
Let's turn it around - private tution is now only available for students from higher socio-economic backgrounds, a criteria unrelated to personal ability.
So shall we ban private tuition?
What about state-sponsored extra help for kids struggling at school, should that be stopped?
This whole story is missing the point that you still need at least a 2.2 degree to enter the Fast Stream and everyone is filtered by merit regardless of their socio-economic background or whether they did 8 weeks of work experience.
"
False equivalence... The 2:2 requirement is a baseline but the Fast Pass granted to SIP interns gives one group a clear advantage in selection, before ability is even compared.
This is about an exclusive route to Whitehall top tier jobs based on background. It’s restricting opportunity at the very entry point to a public sector career path, using parental occupation as a filter. That is not widening access it’s narrowing it based on social profiling.
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"Are working class people not able?
Ability should determine that
But if working class children are less likely to have a degree due to costs isn't it better to open that job up to people without a degree but able?"
my dad didn’t have a degree, came from working class background and rose to very senior level in the CS. Anyway, blame Bliar for encouraging kids to do utterly useless degrees and then start charging for tuition fees….
There always used to be routes into the civil service without a degree. |
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"The Labour government is pulling apart the main civil service internship programme by restricting applicants to lower socio economic backgrounds. The restrictive measure will also be judged by their parents occupation when they were 14. The aim is to increase working class representation in Whitehall.
It appears the Labour party are engineering the future of Whitehall at the expense of ability, I guess this is a reflection of UK politics in general. However to manipulate the "civil service" by removing ability in favour of predetermined social standing measures is very worrying it is prejudice, playing out like Animal farm.
"
Eyup anyone coming t enly regatta get pissed on t Pimm's |
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"my dad didn’t have a degree, came from working class background and rose to very senior level in the CS. Anyway, blame Bliar for encouraging kids to do utterly useless degrees and then start charging for tuition fees….
There always used to be routes into the civil service without a degree."
I believe this is still the case. The Fast Stream scheme gives graduates a head start but non-graduates might outperform them eventually. |
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By *iseekingbiCouple 40 weeks ago
N ireland and West Midlands |
"For right-winger knicker twisters so concerned with a fair playing field...
Let's turn it around - private tution is now only available for students from higher socio-economic backgrounds, a criteria unrelated to personal ability.
So shall we ban private tuition?
What about state-sponsored extra help for kids struggling at school, should that be stopped?
This whole story is missing the point that you still need at least a 2.2 degree to enter the Fast Stream and everyone is filtered by merit regardless of their socio-economic background or whether they did 8 weeks of work experience.
"
The right seem to be angry and offended about everything. They must wake up an hour early just to squeeze in some more time to be bitter and irate.Poor old snowflakes. |
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Restricting access based on your parents job when you were 14 is as archaic and backward as requiring you to have done PPE at Oxbridge. It’s possibly even worse as an idea.
The Civil Service needs fundamental change. It is a system designed for the 19th century. Change, however, needs to happen at the top rather than the bottom. The announcement that the MoD are going to look externally for their new top civil servant is a good sign - whether it actually gets filled by an external candidate is a different matter…. |
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"The Labour government is pulling apart the main civil service internship programme by restricting applicants to lower socio economic backgrounds. The restrictive measure will also be judged by their parents occupation when they were 14. The aim is to increase working class representation in Whitehall.
It appears the Labour party are engineering the future of Whitehall at the expense of ability, I guess this is a reflection of UK politics in general. However to manipulate the "civil service" by removing ability in favour of predetermined social standing measures is very worrying it is prejudice, playing out like Animal farm.
"
I suppose it's a natural progression for this government.
How can you have high ability civil servants when the politicians they serve are such low quality?
Better to pick some spotty teen with a GCSE in art who will make the minister look like Einstein.
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Here are some yearly wages that a locomotive operator may expect based on their experience levels:
Less than 3 years: around £30,000
4 to 9 years: about £47,300
10 to 20 years: around £55,000
Over 20 years: roughly £65,000
Uniccm - posted July 2025
Some train drivers might earn more, but £80,000 doesn't seem to be the norm. |
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By (user no longer on site) 40 weeks ago
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"Here are some yearly wages that a locomotive operator may expect based on their experience levels:
Less than 3 years: around £30,000
4 to 9 years: about £47,300
10 to 20 years: around £55,000
Over 20 years: roughly £65,000
Uniccm - posted July 2025
Some train drivers might earn more, but £80,000 doesn't seem to be the norm. "
The average salary in the UK is £37k. |
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By *iseekingbiCouple 40 weeks ago
N ireland and West Midlands |
"Here are some yearly wages that a locomotive operator may expect based on their experience levels:
Less than 3 years: around £30,000
4 to 9 years: about £47,300
10 to 20 years: around £55,000
Over 20 years: roughly £65,000
Uniccm - posted July 2025
Some train drivers might earn more, but £80,000 doesn't seem to be the norm.
The average salary in the UK is £37k."
Your facts will make the daily mail reading sheep melt. |
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By (user no longer on site) 40 weeks ago
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It's a good thing.
It's how you end up with people in high rise tiny flats with 7 bins and garden car chargers.
Not everyone has those spaces.
The 7% who go to private education take up most civil service jobs, judiciary and the media.
Won't someone think of the wealthy!!! |
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