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Flags - kind of.
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"I reckon there is a very similar story, with the only difference being the flag is Palestinian. Call me a cynic "Can you find it, just for comparison? | |||
"I reckon there is a very similar story, with the only difference being the flag is Palestinian. Call me a cynic
Can you find it, just for comparison? "Of course I can
Someone mentioned to me that property prices in areas where Palestinian flags were flying or were painted on roundabouts was affecting houseprices.
I found the page in question, but it said the flags COULD affect house prices, due to buyers being wary of anti social behaviour.
I did, however, find an article from last year by a property website, which indicated that 1 in 5 housebuyers would be put off buying a property flying a Palestinian flag.
Could the housing market be at risk? | |||
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"I reckon there is a very similar story, with the only difference being the flag is Palestinian. Call me a cynic
Can you find it, just for comparison?
Of course I can
Someone mentioned to me that property prices in areas where Palestinian flags were flying or were painted on roundabouts was affecting houseprices.
I found the page in question, but it said the flags COULD affect house prices, due to buyers being wary of anti social behaviour.
I did, however, find an article from last year by a property website, which indicated that 1 in 5 housebuyers would be put off buying a property flying a Palestinian flag.
Could the housing market be at risk? "So you've done none of your own research? Strangely, I didn't take the other person's word for it, I found the page they had mentioned, and tried to fact check. Which is where I found the article from a year ago. Even more strangely, when I searched, I didn't even mention what type of flag, but the only flag mentioned in terms of property buying in the UK was the St George's Flag. | |||
"Starting off with flags, not hard to see where this is going. " Where is this going, in your opinion? | |||
"I reckon there is a very similar story, with the only difference being the flag is Palestinian. Call me a cynic
Can you find it, just for comparison?
Of course I can
Someone mentioned to me that property prices in areas where Palestinian flags were flying or were painted on roundabouts was affecting houseprices.
I found the page in question, but it said the flags COULD affect house prices, due to buyers being wary of anti social behaviour.
I did, however, find an article from last year by a property website, which indicated that 1 in 5 housebuyers would be put off buying a property flying a Palestinian flag.
Could the housing market be at risk?
So you've done none of your own research?
Strangely, I didn't take the other person's word for it, I found the page they had mentioned, and tried to fact check. Which is where I found the article from a year ago.
Even more strangely, when I searched, I didn't even mention what type of flag, but the only flag mentioned in terms of property buying in the UK was the St George's Flag.
"I had considered you more astute than the way you have approached this thread. To me this thread is very much in the form of click bait, so I have no idea what your intention is. | |||
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"I reckon there is a very similar story, with the only difference being the flag is Palestinian. Call me a cynic
Can you find it, just for comparison?
Of course I can
Someone mentioned to me that property prices in areas where Palestinian flags were flying or were painted on roundabouts was affecting houseprices.
I found the page in question, but it said the flags COULD affect house prices, due to buyers being wary of anti social behaviour.
I did, however, find an article from last year by a property website, which indicated that 1 in 5 housebuyers would be put off buying a property flying a Palestinian flag.
Could the housing market be at risk?
So you've done none of your own research?
Strangely, I didn't take the other person's word for it, I found the page they had mentioned, and tried to fact check. Which is where I found the article from a year ago.
Even more strangely, when I searched, I didn't even mention what type of flag, but the only flag mentioned in terms of property buying in the UK was the St George's Flag.
I had considered you more astute than the way you have approached this thread.
To me this thread is very much in the form of click bait, so I have no idea what your intention is. "Isn't every thread click bait, in some respect? However, I had researched what I had been told, because I tend not to take information on face value. I provided information as to what I had found. The response I received did not demonstrate any similar inquisivity. Is there going to be a fiscal consequence to people selling houses, due to the current propensity for flying the St George's Cross? | |||
"Starting off with flags, not hard to see where this is going. Where is this going, in your opinion? " In the wrong direction for sure. Non inclusion, nationalism, anti / pro Jew, anti/ pro Palestine, kneecap, starmer wanting to ban kneecap, anti Muslim, George’s cross flags everywhere you look - houses, road signs, motorway bridges, facebook promoting all this division, councillors wife ‘burn the bastards’. Pre occupying all those that will listen with prejudice and hatred. | |||
"I reckon there is a very similar story, with the only difference being the flag is Palestinian. Call me a cynic
Can you find it, just for comparison?
Of course I can
Someone mentioned to me that property prices in areas where Palestinian flags were flying or were painted on roundabouts was affecting houseprices.
I found the page in question, but it said the flags COULD affect house prices, due to buyers being wary of anti social behaviour.
I did, however, find an article from last year by a property website, which indicated that 1 in 5 housebuyers would be put off buying a property flying a Palestinian flag.
Could the housing market be at risk?
So you've done none of your own research?
Strangely, I didn't take the other person's word for it, I found the page they had mentioned, and tried to fact check. Which is where I found the article from a year ago.
Even more strangely, when I searched, I didn't even mention what type of flag, but the only flag mentioned in terms of property buying in the UK was the St George's Flag.
I had considered you more astute than the way you have approached this thread.
To me this thread is very much in the form of click bait, so I have no idea what your intention is.
Isn't every thread click bait, in some respect?
However, I had researched what I had been told, because I tend not to take information on face value.
I provided information as to what I had found.
The response I received did not demonstrate any similar inquisivity.
Is there going to be a fiscal consequence to people selling houses, due to the current propensity for flying the St George's Cross? "I believe you believe  | |||
"Starting off with flags, not hard to see where this is going. Where is this going, in your opinion? In the wrong direction for sure. Non inclusion, nationalism, anti / pro Jew, anti/ pro Palestine, kneecap, starmer wanting to ban kneecap, anti Muslim, George’s cross flags everywhere you look - houses, road signs, motorway bridges, facebook promoting all this division, councillors wife ‘burn the bastards’. Pre occupying all those that will listen with prejudice and hatred. " Nope. Will there be fiscal consequences for house sellers where the St George's Cross is evident? If so, what implications does this have on a wider scale? | |||
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"Flags are already banned from new housing developments in Northern Ireland through restrict covenants Give it a couple of months same will likely be everywhere " But in terms of house prices in the meantime, should the same restrictions be applied in the long term? | |||
"Starting off with flags, not hard to see where this is going. Where is this going, in your opinion? In the wrong direction for sure. Non inclusion, nationalism, anti / pro Jew, anti/ pro Palestine, kneecap, starmer wanting to ban kneecap, anti Muslim, George’s cross flags everywhere you look - houses, road signs, motorway bridges, facebook promoting all this division, councillors wife ‘burn the bastards’. Pre occupying all those that will listen with prejudice and hatred. Nope. Will there be fiscal consequences for house sellers where the St George's Cross is evident? If so, what implications does this have on a wider scale? " I think beyond the objective decrease in desirability, there will be a concurrent effect where non-flag-shaggers will take the sudden bloom of gammon-rags in their area as a sign that it's time to move to a different area, which will create a housing surplus in those areas as well. Just finished reading an op-ed piece by a guy who asked that a flag on a Telegraph pole in front of his house be taken down and was sneered at. He's now too worried about reprisals to take it down himself. He's British but has a reasonable objection to the dominance of a cultural expression of Britishness he doesn't recognise or agree with. Not that any of this will resonate with a majority of flag-shaggers, who, I have cause to suspect, enjoy using the threatening subtext of performative nationalism to unsettle and intimidate people who happen to not agree with them. | |||
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"Flying a country's flag in the said country should never be controversial, unless there are safety hazards. It's unfortunate that things have come down to this in the Western countries. " Nothing that a short war wouldn't fix 
It's the curse of privilege - content people don't need identity (or to assert it). | |||
" I think beyond the objective decrease in desirability, there will be a concurrent effect where non-flag-shaggers will take the sudden bloom of gammon-rags in their area as a sign that it's time to move to a different area, which will create a housing surplus in those areas as well. Would you be comfortable with people talking about pm those in areas with Palestinian flags displayed with similar derisory language (terrorist sympathisers, FGM enthusiasts, cousin-humpers)? Might those who respect the UK & English flags not simply see you as being as bigoted as you accuse them of being, or is this the equivalent of a black person calling another the N-word? Surely this isn't the way to win hearts and minds. For the record - the flight of those scared by the Union flag/StG cross is probably exactly what they'd like to see happen." I would argue that "gammon" and "flag-shagger" are not similar derisory language to terms that allege enthusiasm for mass murder, misogynist mutilation and inc*st. And yes, being a white Brit myself I do reserve the right to poke fun at our ham-like complexions and our weird attitude to patriotism. Does it win hearts and minds? No, but being nice doesn't either - as you say, these people are actively trying to scare us away - so on balance I'd sooner have my fun with it. | |||
" Does it win hearts and minds? No, but being nice doesn't either - as you say, these people are actively trying to scare us away - so on balance I'd sooner have my fun with it." Fair enough. | |||
" I think beyond the objective decrease in desirability, there will be a concurrent effect where non-flag-shaggers will take the sudden bloom of gammon-rags in their area as a sign that it's time to move to a different area, which will create a housing surplus in those areas as well. Would you be comfortable with people talking about pm those in areas with Palestinian flags displayed with similar derisory language (terrorist sympathisers, FGM enthusiasts, cousin-humpers)? Might those who respect the UK & English flags not simply see you as being as bigoted as you accuse them of being, or is this the equivalent of a black person calling another the N-word? Surely this isn't the way to win hearts and minds. For the record - the flight of those scared by the Union flag/StG cross is probably exactly what they'd like to see happen. I would argue that "gammon" and "flag-shagger" are not similar derisory language to terms that allege enthusiasm for mass murder, misogynist mutilation and inc*st. And yes, being a white Brit myself I do reserve the right to poke fun at our ham-like complexions and our weird attitude to patriotism. Does it win hearts and minds? No, but being nice doesn't either - as you say, these people are actively trying to scare us away - so on balance I'd sooner have my fun with it." I’m going out on a limb here but I’m guessing your neighbours would pay pretty much anything to get away from you. I mean most of us chat to our neighbours about the weather, holidays, how the kids are doing, and how they are finding the new Range Rover. With you I suspect it’s more of a case of giving them six hour lectures about being racist chavs, regaling them with tales of your time at the FE College while they hide in the shrubbery, and asking incessantly whether they’ve thought about voting Labour. | |||
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" I’m going out on a limb here but I’m guessing your neighbours would pay pretty much anything to get away from you. I mean most of us chat to our neighbours about the weather, holidays, how the kids are doing, and how they are finding the new Range Rover. With you I suspect it’s more of a case of giving them six hour lectures about being racist chavs, regaling them with tales of your time at the FE College while they hide in the shrubbery, and asking incessantly whether they’ve thought about voting Labour." I'm going out on a limb here but I'm guessing you type out these little fantasies you have about me with one hand. | |||
"If the estate agent in the first article is correct, and house prices fall in these areas, what does that mean for the people living in those communities? As there seem to be many places where flags have been erected, what consequences could there be for the wider housing market, and the economy as a whole? " What probably happens over time is the areas become homogenized. More flag shaggers move in. Other people leave and so on. Not sure what impact that has on house prices. | |||
" I’m going out on a limb here but I’m guessing your neighbours would pay pretty much anything to get away from you. I mean most of us chat to our neighbours about the weather, holidays, how the kids are doing, and how they are finding the new Range Rover. With you I suspect it’s more of a case of giving them six hour lectures about being racist chavs, regaling them with tales of your time at the FE College while they hide in the shrubbery, and asking incessantly whether they’ve thought about voting Labour. I'm going out on a limb here but I'm guessing you type out these little fantasies you have about me with one hand." To be fair I could save Labour a fortune in research and focus group costs. If they want to know what’s going wrong for them and why they aren’t connecting with the public we could just clip all your posts and send them to Labour head office. Maybe you could do it yourself to aid the cause. | |||
"Flying a country's flag in the said country should never be controversial, unless there are safety hazards. It's unfortunate that things have come down to this in the Western countries. Nothing that a short war wouldn't fix
It's the curse of privilege - content people don't need identity (or to assert it)."Maybe we should start a nerf gun war with the French 😃 There is a teeny tiny percentage of people who are genuinely content with themselves. But for most humans, identity is an important thing. Religions, nationalism, political affiliation and even football fan clubs are just expression of people's need for an identity. I know I am going into yet another tirade about the left. But they need to realise that getting people to hate their own national symbols is a stupid idea. Most people won't agree with it. In fact, socialism requires national pride to at least get reasonable support. Unfortunately, their "progressive" views conflict with this. | |||
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"I can tell that people are continuing discussions about flags and their meanings from another thread. However, I was hoping that the potential economic impact of houseprices in areas where flags are flown might have some traction. Are people correct to be wary of anti social behaviour? If house prices fall in these areas, what ramifications are there? Could it initiate a wider reluctance to move house? What's the potential ripple effect? " Those are broad questions. What's your take? There's unlikely to be any meaningful impact across the country generally. Some areas might become more or less appealing to certain demographics. That's about it. The impact will be more social than economic (enclaves of like-minded people). It's possibly a bit like asking what happens when a certain ethnic group move into an area, or gentrification happens somewhere. | |||
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"I can tell that people are continuing discussions about flags and their meanings from another thread. However, I was hoping that the potential economic impact of houseprices in areas where flags are flown might have some traction. Are people correct to be wary of anti social behaviour? If house prices fall in these areas, what ramifications are there? Could it initiate a wider reluctance to move house? What's the potential ripple effect? " The idea that presence of national flags is sign of antisocial behaviour is a stupid one to begin with. It will have no impact on housing or rental prices. It's just a social fad that will die away soon. It won't be long before people realise that the whole thing is a hyperbole and move on to other things. As someone who lives right next to a home that has had the English flag for a long time, if house prices go down in an area because of this and no other reason, I would happily buy/rent from there. | |||
" The idea that presence of national flags is sign of antisocial behaviour is a stupid one to begin with. " That isn't necessarily true (the idea). Some genuinely racist people use the St George's cross to assert white British nationalism. Therefore, it might be understandable to be concerned that a prevalence in a particular area means that they are not welcome. Those people might be wrong, but it's not a stupid idea. What should happen is for more non-racist people to claim the flags and be proud of them. | |||
" The idea that presence of national flags is sign of antisocial behaviour is a stupid one to begin with. That isn't necessarily true (the idea). Some genuinely racist people use the St George's cross to assert white British nationalism. Therefore, it might be understandable to be concerned that a prevalence in a particular area means that they are not welcome. Those people might be wrong, but it's not a stupid idea. What should happen is for more non-racist people to claim the flags and be proud of them." Yes, racists have co-opted the flags. And I agree that non-racists should claim the flag and instill a sense of national pride about the flag. In my experience, most racists are covert about it rather than being overt. And wherever I have seen people hanging the national flags, it has been down to supporting the football team than for any other reasons. There are numerous data sources available online to keep track of different types of crime including ASB at a postcode level. I would rather rely on that data and just talking to the neighbours before buying a place. | |||
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" The idea that presence of national flags is sign of antisocial behaviour is a stupid one to begin with. That isn't necessarily true (the idea). Some genuinely racist people use the St George's cross to assert white British nationalism. Therefore, it might be understandable to be concerned that a prevalence in a particular area means that they are not welcome. Those people might be wrong, but it's not a stupid idea. What should happen is for more non-racist people to claim the flags and be proud of them. Yes, racists have co-opted the flags. And I agree that non-racists should claim the flag and instill a sense of national pride about the flag. In my experience, most racists are covert about it rather than being overt. And wherever I have seen people hanging the national flags, it has been down to supporting the football team than for any other reasons. There are numerous data sources available online to keep track of different types of crime including ASB at a postcode level. I would rather rely on that data and just talking to the neighbours before buying a place. " Watch out, though if your potential neighbours say "We'll fuckin' knfe you and torch your fuckin' car if you don't fit in". May not be a good place to move to.. | |||
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"In my youth we had a boat and used to fly the Red Ensign when sailing to France. Coming back one time the wind turned nasty and we luffed up ready to reduce sail. A fluky gust got the ensign caught up in the roller reefing system. We found ourselves struggling to get it freed as the boom extended beyond the length of the boat and the sea was becoming lively by the minute. That flag nearly cost us very dearly. Like wedding rings, flags are not always good for health and safety! Nowadays I would fly a Red V sign if the chandler's sold them." Was it the flag that nearly cost you dearly, or the environment you were in? | |||
"In my youth we had a boat and used to fly the Red Ensign when sailing to France. Coming back one time the wind turned nasty and we luffed up ready to reduce sail. A fluky gust got the ensign caught up in the roller reefing system. We found ourselves struggling to get it freed as the boom extended beyond the length of the boat and the sea was becoming lively by the minute. That flag nearly cost us very dearly. Like wedding rings, flags are not always good for health and safety! Nowadays I would fly a Red V sign if the chandler's sold them." You were flying the red ensign inappropriate if it caught in the roller reefing system | |||
"In my youth we had a boat and used to fly the Red Ensign when sailing to France. Coming back one time the wind turned nasty and we luffed up ready to reduce sail. A fluky gust got the ensign caught up in the roller reefing system. We found ourselves struggling to get it freed as the boom extended beyond the length of the boat and the sea was becoming lively by the minute. That flag nearly cost us very dearly. Like wedding rings, flags are not always good for health and safety! Nowadays I would fly a Red V sign if the chandler's sold them. You were flying the red ensign inappropriate if it caught in the roller reefing system" I quite agree. The design of the boat didn't help, nor did unnecessary national pride. Convention played some part as well. | |||
" I’m going out on a limb here but I’m guessing your neighbours would pay pretty much anything to get away from you. I mean most of us chat to our neighbours about the weather, holidays, how the kids are doing, and how they are finding the new Range Rover. With you I suspect it’s more of a case of giving them six hour lectures about being racist chavs, regaling them with tales of your time at the FE College while they hide in the shrubbery, and asking incessantly whether they’ve thought about voting Labour. I'm going out on a limb here but I'm guessing you type out these little fantasies you have about me with one hand. To be fair I could save Labour a fortune in research and focus group costs. If they want to know what’s going wrong for them and why they aren’t connecting with the public we could just clip all your posts and send them to Labour head office. Maybe you could do it yourself to aid the cause." Awww, you think you're "the public". Bless your heart. | |||
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"In my youth we had a boat and used to fly the Red Ensign when sailing to France. Coming back one time the wind turned nasty and we luffed up ready to reduce sail. A fluky gust got the ensign caught up in the roller reefing system. We found ourselves struggling to get it freed as the boom extended beyond the length of the boat and the sea was becoming lively by the minute. That flag nearly cost us very dearly. Like wedding rings, flags are not always good for health and safety! Nowadays I would fly a Red V sign if the chandler's sold them. You were flying the red ensign inappropriate if it caught in the roller reefing system I quite agree. The design of the boat didn't help, nor did unnecessary national pride. Convention played some part as well." convention puts the ensign at the rearmost extremity of the vessel, which in the case of a sailing boat would be at least the backstay if not a dedicated position. | |||
"There is a current post on Facebook suggesting houseprices might be being negatively affected by the flying of St George's flags or Union flags. However, the source wasn't cited, so I could not verify. I looked for other articles that might provide more insight, which is where I found the article from last year. However, a lot has happened since then, and the flag of St George and the Union flag seemingly have other connotations, due to how they have been used by various groups, historically and, of more relevance, currently. Whilst I appreciate some people may be flying the flags purely for being proud to be English/British, others may not be. " By your argument, most people, especially the Jews should avoid places with Palestine flags. | |||
" By your argument, most people, especially the Jews should avoid places with Palestine flags." They absolutely do, because of lived experience. | |||
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" By your argument, most people, especially the Jews should avoid places with Palestine flags." Jews should be wary of most national flags, since they have been persecuted for centuries in many countries. | |||
"I reckon there is a very similar story, with the only difference being the flag is Palestinian. Call me a cynic "Top lols!! Yes that chutney making 70 year old is definitely a threat to civilians, however, not Gary snorting lines and chugging white lightning | |||
"Perhaps people who want to be truly showing their love for Great Britain, with no other agenda, could fly a flag of Britannia. That could separate them from any perceived negativity of the St George and Union flags. " You’re flying very close to putting people into neat, identifiable boxes based on your own perception and misunderstanding of the Union. That approach doesn’t really separate anyone from negativity, it just creates another label. Have you thought through where that logic leads? I’m guessing you would class yourself as antifascist? | |||
"I reckon there is a very similar story, with the only difference being the flag is Palestinian. Call me a cynic
Top lols!!
Yes that chutney making 70 year old is definitely a threat to civilians, however, not Gary snorting lines and chugging white lightning "Would you describe your comment as grounded, misjudged, or just bigoted? | |||
"Perhaps people who want to be truly showing their love for Great Britain, with no other agenda, could fly a flag of Britannia. That could separate them from any perceived negativity of the St George and Union flags. " Do you think anyone else flying their national flag gives a toss about what others think? | |||
"I reckon there is a very similar story, with the only difference being the flag is Palestinian. Call me a cynic
Top lols!!
Yes that chutney making 70 year old is definitely a threat to civilians, however, not Gary snorting lines and chugging white lightning
Would you describe your comment as grounded, misjudged, or just bigoted?"About as accurate as you and your far right chums labelling asylum seekers as illegal | |||
"Perhaps people who want to be truly showing their love for Great Britain, with no other agenda, could fly a flag of Britannia. That could separate them from any perceived negativity of the St George and Union flags. Do you think anyone else flying their national flag gives a toss about what others think? " You clearly do, dear | |||
"Perhaps people who want to be truly showing their love for Great Britain, with no other agenda, could fly a flag of Britannia. That could separate them from any perceived negativity of the St George and Union flags. Do you think anyone else flying their national flag gives a toss about what others think? You clearly do, dear " What's gives you that idea, chummy | |||
"Perhaps people who want to be truly showing their love for Great Britain, with no other agenda, could fly a flag of Britannia. That could separate them from any perceived negativity of the St George and Union flags. Do you think anyone else flying their national flag gives a toss about what others think? You clearly do, dear What's gives you that idea, chummy " Your reply. | |||
"Perhaps people who want to be truly showing their love for Great Britain, with no other agenda, could fly a flag of Britannia. That could separate them from any perceived negativity of the St George and Union flags. Do you think anyone else flying their national flag gives a toss about what others think? You clearly do, dear What's gives you that idea, chummy Your reply." Fool | |||
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"Anyone noticed that those saying flying our flag is wrong are the ones with the EU / Palestine etc. flags on their X accounts?" Who's saying you can't? Fly your flags! But the flag belongs to everyone not just racists | |||
"Perhaps people who want to be truly showing their love for Great Britain, with no other agenda, could fly a flag of Britannia. That could separate them from any perceived negativity of the St George and Union flags. " Or perhaps they could just embody the values they supposedly believe make this country so great. Like you have Christians who try to live according to the teachings of Jesus, and then you have Christians who just want to advertise their claimed piety. And many of those people have zero interest in representing what Jesus says in the Bible. Most of what I think makes Britain great is stuff I'd wager your average flag-shagger has never heard of or wouldn't like or doesn't know is British, like Elgar and Ted Hughes and Capability Brown and Ken Russell and David Bowie and Monty Python and public libraries and Charles Darwin and Led Zeppelin and the Lunar Society of Birmingham and Kingsley Amis and Millicent Fawcett and JMW Turner and Babbage/Lovelace and penicillin and the sandwich and - I could go on. The above things make me happy - not proud, happy - to be someone who was fortunate enough to have been born here and to live here. But there are other things that could arguably be described as British, like modesty and decorum and good taste and restraint and discretion. I think of those things as both fundamental to Britishness, and completely at odds with the brutish and provocative flapping of national flags from every burger van and chemical toilet in the land. Not only do these people not have sole claim to patriotism, in my view they are behaving in a way unbecoming of Britons and unrepresentative of British values. | |||
"Perhaps people who want to be truly showing their love for Great Britain, with no other agenda, could fly a flag of Britannia. That could separate them from any perceived negativity of the St George and Union flags. You’re flying very close to putting people into neat, identifiable boxes based on your own perception and misunderstanding of the Union. That approach doesn’t really separate anyone from negativity, it just creates another label. Have you thought through where that logic leads? I’m guessing you would class yourself as antifascist? " Nope. | |||
"Perhaps people who want to be truly showing their love for Great Britain, with no other agenda, could fly a flag of Britannia. That could separate them from any perceived negativity of the St George and Union flags. Do you think anyone else flying their national flag gives a toss about what others think? " Hmmm. Have those flags been used by extremist groups? Then yes, they do, because they want a response of some description. | |||
"Anyone noticed that those saying flying our flag is wrong are the ones with the EU / Palestine etc. flags on their X accounts?" Nope. | |||
" ... convention puts the ensign at the rearmost extremity of the vessel, which in the case of a sailing boat would be at least the backstay if not a dedicated position. " Once again, I agree with you. However, I didn't design the boat to have a boom extending beyond the stern and thus with no standing backstay or space for a jackstaff. We had no real choice other than to fly the ensign low down on the topping lift, as far astern as possible near the end of the boom, which used roller reefing applied manually from near the mast. Being still in French waters, we felt obliged to fly the damned thing as well as a small courtesy French flag flown in the normal location. It was a combination of complex design and flag etiquette which put us in jeopardy. We didn't let that happen again and in any case didn't normally fly it in home waters. Feel free to re tell this cautionary tale around your boating circle and warn them not to buy boats with a boom extending beyond the stern. Built in trouble. Use it also to remind them that flying flags can be as dangerous a wearing wedding rings! | |||
" But the flag belongs to everyone not just racists " It does, but unfortunately there are potentially negative perceptions of certain flags. | |||
" By your argument, most people, especially the Jews should avoid places with Palestine flags. Jews should be wary of most national flags, since they have been persecuted for centuries in many countries. " In today's world, who is the biggest danger to the Jews in UK? Maybe the group that goes around in cars in London with loudspeakers shouting "Fuck the Jews. Fuck their mothers. R*pe their daughters" and aren't even charged for it? .https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11444671/Fury-prosecutors-DROP-charges-convoy-screaming-F-Jews.html You think some racists misusing the national flag is good enough to be vary of the flags in general? How about some known terrorists using the Palestine flag? Should we all be vary of Palestine flag? | |||
" By your argument, most people, especially the Jews should avoid places with Palestine flags. Jews should be wary of most national flags, since they have been persecuted for centuries in many countries. In today's world, who is the biggest danger to the Jews in UK? Maybe the group that goes around in cars in London with loudspeakers shouting "Fuck the Jews. Fuck their mothers. R*pe their daughters" and aren't even charged for it? .https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11444671/Fury-prosecutors-DROP-charges-convoy-screaming-F-Jews.html You think some racists misusing the national flag is good enough to be vary of the flags in general? How about some known terrorists using the Palestine flag? Should we all be vary of Palestine flag?" We should all be wary of terrorists. But in some respect, there is acknowledgement that some people are misusing the St George's Flag and the Union flag. | |||
" By your argument, most people, especially the Jews should avoid places with Palestine flags. Jews should be wary of most national flags, since they have been persecuted for centuries in many countries. In today's world, who is the biggest danger to the Jews in UK? Maybe the group that goes around in cars in London with loudspeakers shouting "Fuck the Jews. Fuck their mothers. R*pe their daughters" and aren't even charged for it? .https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11444671/Fury-prosecutors-DROP-charges-convoy-screaming-F-Jews.html You think some racists misusing the national flag is good enough to be vary of the flags in general? How about some known terrorists using the Palestine flag? Should we all be vary of Palestine flag? We should all be wary of terrorists. But in some respect, there is acknowledgement that some people are misusing the St George's Flag and the Union flag. " And the Palestine flag. | |||
These people never cared about racism to begin with. It's all about pretending to be cool on the internet. | |||
" By your argument, most people, especially the Jews should avoid places with Palestine flags. Jews should be wary of most national flags, since they have been persecuted for centuries in many countries. In today's world, who is the biggest danger to the Jews in UK? Maybe the group that goes around in cars in London with loudspeakers shouting "Fuck the Jews. Fuck their mothers. R*pe their daughters" and aren't even charged for it? .https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11444671/Fury-prosecutors-DROP-charges-convoy-screaming-F-Jews.html You think some racists misusing the national flag is good enough to be vary of the flags in general? How about some known terrorists using the Palestine flag? Should we all be vary of Palestine flag? We should all be wary of terrorists. But in some respect, there is acknowledgement that some people are misusing the St George's Flag and the Union flag. And the Palestine flag." In what way is the Palestine flag being misused or represented? | |||
" By your argument, most people, especially the Jews should avoid places with Palestine flags. Jews should be wary of most national flags, since they have been persecuted for centuries in many countries. In today's world, who is the biggest danger to the Jews in UK? Maybe the group that goes around in cars in London with loudspeakers shouting "Fuck the Jews. Fuck their mothers. R*pe their daughters" and aren't even charged for it? .https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11444671/Fury-prosecutors-DROP-charges-convoy-screaming-F-Jews.html You think some racists misusing the national flag is good enough to be vary of the flags in general? How about some known terrorists using the Palestine flag? Should we all be vary of Palestine flag? We should all be wary of terrorists. But in some respect, there is acknowledgement that some people are misusing the St George's Flag and the Union flag. And the Palestine flag. In what way is the Palestine flag being misused or represented? " I just shared the link with what certain pro-Palestine peace lovers shouting. Even Palestine action, a terrorist group used the flag. So maybe, we all and especially the Jews must be vary of Palestine flags | |||
"Perhaps people who want to be truly showing their love for Great Britain, with no other agenda, could fly a flag of Britannia. That could separate them from any perceived negativity of the St George and Union flags. You’re flying very close to putting people into neat, identifiable boxes based on your own perception and misunderstanding of the Union. That approach doesn’t really separate anyone from negativity, it just creates another label. Have you thought through where that logic leads? I’m guessing you would class yourself as antifascist? Nope. "  | |||
"Perhaps people who want to be truly showing their love for Great Britain, with no other agenda, could fly a flag of Britannia. That could separate them from any perceived negativity of the St George and Union flags. You’re flying very close to putting people into neat, identifiable boxes based on your own perception and misunderstanding of the Union. That approach doesn’t really separate anyone from negativity, it just creates another label. Have you thought through where that logic leads? I’m guessing you would class yourself as antifascist? Nope. " | |||
"Perhaps people who want to be truly showing their love for Great Britain, with no other agenda, could fly a flag of Britannia. That could separate them from any perceived negativity of the St George and Union flags. You’re flying very close to putting people into neat, identifiable boxes based on your own perception and misunderstanding of the Union. That approach doesn’t really separate anyone from negativity, it just creates another label. Have you thought through where that logic leads? I’m guessing you would class yourself as antifascist? Nope. "Funnily enough, I was looking for a solution to meet all ends. If people want to associate themselves with right wing ideologies, carry on! If there are people who want to express their patriotism, without affiliation to other groups without connotation, they have alternative options. | |||
"Perhaps people who want to be truly showing their love for Great Britain, with no other agenda, could fly a flag of Britannia. That could separate them from any perceived negativity of the St George and Union flags. You’re flying very close to putting people into neat, identifiable boxes based on your own perception and misunderstanding of the Union. That approach doesn’t really separate anyone from negativity, it just creates another label. Have you thought through where that logic leads? I’m guessing you would class yourself as antifascist? Nope.
Funnily enough, I was looking for a solution to meet all ends.
If people want to associate themselves with right wing ideologies, carry on!
If there are people who want to express their patriotism, without affiliation to other groups without connotation, they have alternative options.
"Will it ever come to pass that NOT flying a flag in your garden, or having one in your window or painted on your wall, etc. etc. causes issues? Flying national flags is obviously a thing of pride so what does it infer if you don't fly a flag? | |||
" Will it ever come to pass that NOT flying a flag in your garden, or having one in your window or painted on your wall, etc. etc. causes issues? Flying national flags is obviously a thing of pride so what does it infer if you don't fly a flag?" There are a few places in the world where not being sufficiently performatively patriotic can get you into deep trouble. North Korea comes to mind. It's another layer to this whole thing. We know that the people hanging flags off motorway bridges are not primarily motivated by a deep and abiding love of Britain. So what then is their primary motivation? They are sending a message to anyone not waving a flag. To non-flag-waving Brits the message is "traitor", and to non-Brits the message is "MY home, not yours". They may not think they're sending that message - these are not in my experience particularly thoughtful people - but that is the message they're sending. And there is a theoretical end-point to this where - much like it's assumed that newsreaders who don't wear their poppy badges are implicitly pissing on the graves of the war dead - anyone who doesn't hang their St. George flag in their living room window is a de facto enemy of the nation. There are some people in this country who, for all their stated desire for freedom from oppression, would love nothing more than a future where you either hang your flag or be shot. Think that's an exaggeration? | |||
" Flying national flags is obviously a thing of pride so what does it infer if you don't fly a flag?" Absolutely nothing. How many of these flags are flown from private properties? I have no idea, I live in Wales. Why are people choosing to attach them to street furniture, which has been mentioned in the press, rather than their own property? If it was pride, surely they would have flags at their own homes, instead of adorning council funded property. | |||
" ... And there is a theoretical end-point to this where - much like it's assumed that newsreaders who don't wear their poppy badges are implicitly pissing on the graves of the war dead - anyone who doesn't hang their St. George flag in their living room window is a de facto enemy of the nation. There are some people in this country who, for all their stated desire for freedom from oppression, would love nothing more than a future where you either hang your flag or be shot. Think that's an exaggeration?" ..and what about people who refuse to get involved in Halloween? Beware mob momentum. | |||
" You’re flying very close to putting people into neat, identifiable boxes " Much like the "us" and "them" rhetoric used so often? Mostly from people to the right of centre. | |||
" Flying national flags is obviously a thing of pride so what does it infer if you don't fly a flag? Absolutely nothing. How many of these flags are flown from private properties? I have no idea, I live in Wales. Why are people choosing to attach them to street furniture, which has been mentioned in the press, rather than their own property? If it was pride, surely they would have flags at their own homes, instead of adorning council funded property. " Have you ever been to Northern Ireland lol Flags are used to mark territory and nothing to do with national pride and that's the case that you describe. Of course during big events, like football or war anniversary dates it's great to see flags flying from every lamppost. Unfortunately the English flag is in danger of becoming a swastika as a symbol of hatred. Even the poppy has been used as a political hate symbol recently. Just my opinion as what has happened here. | |||
" Flying national flags is obviously a thing of pride so what does it infer if you don't fly a flag? Absolutely nothing. How many of these flags are flown from private properties? I have no idea, I live in Wales. Why are people choosing to attach them to street furniture, which has been mentioned in the press, rather than their own property? If it was pride, surely they would have flags at their own homes, instead of adorning council funded property. Have you ever been to Northern Ireland lol Flags are used to mark territory and nothing to do with national pride and that's the case that you describe. Of course during big events, like football or war anniversary dates it's great to see flags flying from every lamppost. Unfortunately the English flag is in danger of becoming a swastika as a symbol of hatred. Even the poppy has been used as a political hate symbol recently. Just my opinion as what has happened here." That's a useful insight. So, potentially, the flags in England act as a territorial marker, rather than a sense of pride (which is what the people putting up the flags are suggesting). That begs the question, why suggest it's national pride when there are other motives in play? | |||
" Flying national flags is obviously a thing of pride so what does it infer if you don't fly a flag? Absolutely nothing. How many of these flags are flown from private properties? I have no idea, I live in Wales. Why are people choosing to attach them to street furniture, which has been mentioned in the press, rather than their own property? If it was pride, surely they would have flags at their own homes, instead of adorning council funded property. Have you ever been to Northern Ireland lol Flags are used to mark territory and nothing to do with national pride and that's the case that you describe. Of course during big events, like football or war anniversary dates it's great to see flags flying from every lamppost. Unfortunately the English flag is in danger of becoming a swastika as a symbol of hatred. Even the poppy has been used as a political hate symbol recently. Just my opinion as what has happened here. That's a useful insight. So, potentially, the flags in England act as a territorial marker, rather than a sense of pride (which is what the people putting up the flags are suggesting). That begs the question, why suggest it's national pride when there are other motives in play? " Have you asked a person who has raised a flag why they are doing it? | |||
" Flying national flags is obviously a thing of pride so what does it infer if you don't fly a flag? Absolutely nothing. How many of these flags are flown from private properties? I have no idea, I live in Wales. Why are people choosing to attach them to street furniture, which has been mentioned in the press, rather than their own property? If it was pride, surely they would have flags at their own homes, instead of adorning council funded property. Have you ever been to Northern Ireland lol Flags are used to mark territory and nothing to do with national pride and that's the case that you describe. Of course during big events, like football or war anniversary dates it's great to see flags flying from every lamppost. Unfortunately the English flag is in danger of becoming a swastika as a symbol of hatred. Even the poppy has been used as a political hate symbol recently. Just my opinion as what has happened here. That's a useful insight. So, potentially, the flags in England act as a territorial marker, rather than a sense of pride (which is what the people putting up the flags are suggesting). That begs the question, why suggest it's national pride when there are other motives in play? Have you asked a person who has raised a flag why they are doing it?" ... and once that person has said "cos I love my country mate", how much further on are we with the discussion? | |||
" Flying national flags is obviously a thing of pride so what does it infer if you don't fly a flag? Absolutely nothing. How many of these flags are flown from private properties? I have no idea, I live in Wales. Why are people choosing to attach them to street furniture, which has been mentioned in the press, rather than their own property? If it was pride, surely they would have flags at their own homes, instead of adorning council funded property. Have you ever been to Northern Ireland lol Flags are used to mark territory and nothing to do with national pride and that's the case that you describe. Of course during big events, like football or war anniversary dates it's great to see flags flying from every lamppost. Unfortunately the English flag is in danger of becoming a swastika as a symbol of hatred. Even the poppy has been used as a political hate symbol recently. Just my opinion as what has happened here. That's a useful insight. So, potentially, the flags in England act as a territorial marker, rather than a sense of pride (which is what the people putting up the flags are suggesting). That begs the question, why suggest it's national pride when there are other motives in play? Have you asked a person who has raised a flag why they are doing it? ... and once that person has said "cos I love my country mate", how much further on are we with the discussion?" Is that the only response you think there could be? | |||
" Flying national flags is obviously a thing of pride so what does it infer if you don't fly a flag? Absolutely nothing. How many of these flags are flown from private properties? I have no idea, I live in Wales. Why are people choosing to attach them to street furniture, which has been mentioned in the press, rather than their own property? If it was pride, surely they would have flags at their own homes, instead of adorning council funded property. Have you ever been to Northern Ireland lol Flags are used to mark territory and nothing to do with national pride and that's the case that you describe. Of course during big events, like football or war anniversary dates it's great to see flags flying from every lamppost. Unfortunately the English flag is in danger of becoming a swastika as a symbol of hatred. Even the poppy has been used as a political hate symbol recently. Just my opinion as what has happened here. That's a useful insight. So, potentially, the flags in England act as a territorial marker, rather than a sense of pride (which is what the people putting up the flags are suggesting). That begs the question, why suggest it's national pride when there are other motives in play? Have you asked a person who has raised a flag why they are doing it? ... and once that person has said "cos I love my country mate", how much further on are we with the discussion? Is that the only response you think there could be? " No, I'm sure most of these people will give me a potted biography of St. George followed by the history of the flag's use since its introduction in the 13th century and its relevance to the prevailing cultural paradigm as relates to the tension between national pride and to co-opting of national symbols by hate groups and sundry xenophobes. They will voice a thoughtful and even-handed defence of displaying flags in public taking into account the potential socio-political ramifications of doing so in such a charged atmosphere, which will do a fine and thorough job of convincing me that most people who want to festoon every available public surface with a British flag are doing so because they have excellent, evidenced reasons to genuinely believe it will enhance, not worsen, our current cultural climate. | |||
" Flying national flags is obviously a thing of pride so what does it infer if you don't fly a flag? Absolutely nothing. How many of these flags are flown from private properties? I have no idea, I live in Wales. Why are people choosing to attach them to street furniture, which has been mentioned in the press, rather than their own property? If it was pride, surely they would have flags at their own homes, instead of adorning council funded property. Have you ever been to Northern Ireland lol Flags are used to mark territory and nothing to do with national pride and that's the case that you describe. Of course during big events, like football or war anniversary dates it's great to see flags flying from every lamppost. Unfortunately the English flag is in danger of becoming a swastika as a symbol of hatred. Even the poppy has been used as a political hate symbol recently. Just my opinion as what has happened here. That's a useful insight. So, potentially, the flags in England act as a territorial marker, rather than a sense of pride (which is what the people putting up the flags are suggesting). That begs the question, why suggest it's national pride when there are other motives in play? Have you asked a person who has raised a flag why they are doing it? ... and once that person has said "cos I love my country mate", how much further on are we with the discussion? Is that the only response you think there could be? No, I'm sure most of these people will give me a potted biography of St. George followed by the history of the flag's use since its introduction in the 13th century and its relevance to the prevailing cultural paradigm as relates to the tension between national pride and to co-opting of national symbols by hate groups and sundry xenophobes. They will voice a thoughtful and even-handed defence of displaying flags in public taking into account the potential socio-political ramifications of doing so in such a charged atmosphere, which will do a fine and thorough job of convincing me that most people who want to festoon every available public surface with a British flag are doing so because they have excellent, evidenced reasons to genuinely believe it will enhance, not worsen, our current cultural climate." It is good to see we are on the same page. By the way what was your prompt for that, you should be careful your AI will start leaning towards the centre  | |||
"Have you asked a person who has raised a flag why they are doing it? ... and once that person has said "cos I love my country mate", how much further on are we with the discussion? Is that the only response you think there could be? No, I'm sure most of these people will give me a potted biography of St. George followed by the history of the flag's use since its introduction in the 13th century and its relevance to the prevailing cultural paradigm as relates to the tension between national pride and to co-opting of national symbols by hate groups and sundry xenophobes. They will voice a thoughtful and even-handed defence of displaying flags in public taking into account the potential socio-political ramifications of doing so in such a charged atmosphere, which will do a fine and thorough job of convincing me that most people who want to festoon every available public surface with a British flag are doing so because they have excellent, evidenced reasons to genuinely believe it will enhance, not worsen, our current cultural climate. It is good to see we are on the same page. By the way what was your prompt for that, you should be careful your AI will start leaning towards the centre "It was "ChatGPT, give me an example of something only an idiot would believe a gammon would say if you asked him why he was hanging an England flag off his wheelie bins - don't hold back on the sarcasm, these guys will believe anything that reassures them". | |||
"Have you asked a person who has raised a flag why they are doing it? ... and once that person has said "cos I love my country mate", how much further on are we with the discussion? Is that the only response you think there could be? No, I'm sure most of these people will give me a potted biography of St. George followed by the history of the flag's use since its introduction in the 13th century and its relevance to the prevailing cultural paradigm as relates to the tension between national pride and to co-opting of national symbols by hate groups and sundry xenophobes. They will voice a thoughtful and even-handed defence of displaying flags in public taking into account the potential socio-political ramifications of doing so in such a charged atmosphere, which will do a fine and thorough job of convincing me that most people who want to festoon every available public surface with a British flag are doing so because they have excellent, evidenced reasons to genuinely believe it will enhance, not worsen, our current cultural climate. It is good to see we are on the same page. By the way what was your prompt for that, you should be careful your AI will start leaning towards the centre
It was "ChatGPT, give me an example of something only an idiot would believe a gammon would say if you asked him why he was hanging an England flag off his wheelie bins - don't hold back on the sarcasm, these guys will believe anything that reassures them"."Wow, well done, garbage in garbage out | |||
"Have you asked a person who has raised a flag why they are doing it? ... and once that person has said "cos I love my country mate", how much further on are we with the discussion? Is that the only response you think there could be? No, I'm sure most of these people will give me a potted biography of St. George followed by the history of the flag's use since its introduction in the 13th century and its relevance to the prevailing cultural paradigm as relates to the tension between national pride and to co-opting of national symbols by hate groups and sundry xenophobes. They will voice a thoughtful and even-handed defence of displaying flags in public taking into account the potential socio-political ramifications of doing so in such a charged atmosphere, which will do a fine and thorough job of convincing me that most people who want to festoon every available public surface with a British flag are doing so because they have excellent, evidenced reasons to genuinely believe it will enhance, not worsen, our current cultural climate. It is good to see we are on the same page. By the way what was your prompt for that, you should be careful your AI will start leaning towards the centre
It was "ChatGPT, give me an example of something only an idiot would believe a gammon would say if you asked him why he was hanging an England flag off his wheelie bins - don't hold back on the sarcasm, these guys will believe anything that reassures them".
Wow, well done, garbage in garbage out "I'm still wondering why you think there'd be anything to learn from asking a flag-shagger about his bunting. | |||
"Have you asked a person who has raised a flag why they are doing it? ... and once that person has said "cos I love my country mate", how much further on are we with the discussion? Is that the only response you think there could be? No, I'm sure most of these people will give me a potted biography of St. George followed by the history of the flag's use since its introduction in the 13th century and its relevance to the prevailing cultural paradigm as relates to the tension between national pride and to co-opting of national symbols by hate groups and sundry xenophobes. They will voice a thoughtful and even-handed defence of displaying flags in public taking into account the potential socio-political ramifications of doing so in such a charged atmosphere, which will do a fine and thorough job of convincing me that most people who want to festoon every available public surface with a British flag are doing so because they have excellent, evidenced reasons to genuinely believe it will enhance, not worsen, our current cultural climate. It is good to see we are on the same page. By the way what was your prompt for that, you should be careful your AI will start leaning towards the centre
It was "ChatGPT, give me an example of something only an idiot would believe a gammon would say if you asked him why he was hanging an England flag off his wheelie bins - don't hold back on the sarcasm, these guys will believe anything that reassures them".
Wow, well done, garbage in garbage out
I'm still wondering why you think there'd be anything to learn from asking a flag-shagger about his bunting."In simple terms, all we really have on here is biased personal opinion. I have not read anything from anyone who has said they have actually flown flags or explained why they are flying them, but I have read plenty from people who claim to know. Wouldn’t it make more sense to hear it from the people who are actually flying the flags, rather than just assume we know it all? Of course there is always the position of thinking we know it all so therefore any other opinion is invalid. | |||
"Have you asked a person who has raised a flag why they are doing it? ... and once that person has said "cos I love my country mate", how much further on are we with the discussion? Is that the only response you think there could be? No, I'm sure most of these people will give me a potted biography of St. George followed by the history of the flag's use since its introduction in the 13th century and its relevance to the prevailing cultural paradigm as relates to the tension between national pride and to co-opting of national symbols by hate groups and sundry xenophobes. They will voice a thoughtful and even-handed defence of displaying flags in public taking into account the potential socio-political ramifications of doing so in such a charged atmosphere, which will do a fine and thorough job of convincing me that most people who want to festoon every available public surface with a British flag are doing so because they have excellent, evidenced reasons to genuinely believe it will enhance, not worsen, our current cultural climate. It is good to see we are on the same page. By the way what was your prompt for that, you should be careful your AI will start leaning towards the centre
It was "ChatGPT, give me an example of something only an idiot would believe a gammon would say if you asked him why he was hanging an England flag off his wheelie bins - don't hold back on the sarcasm, these guys will believe anything that reassures them".
Wow, well done, garbage in garbage out
I'm still wondering why you think there'd be anything to learn from asking a flag-shagger about his bunting.
In simple terms, all we really have on here is biased personal opinion. I have not read anything from anyone who has said they have actually flown flags or explained why they are flying them, but I have read plenty from people who claim to know. Wouldn’t it make more sense to hear it from the people who are actually flying the flags, rather than just assume we know it all?
Of course there is always the position of thinking we know it all so therefore any other opinion is invalid. "Quite. | |||
"Have you asked a person who has raised a flag why they are doing it? ... and once that person has said "cos I love my country mate", how much further on are we with the discussion? Is that the only response you think there could be? No, I'm sure most of these people will give me a potted biography of St. George followed by the history of the flag's use since its introduction in the 13th century and its relevance to the prevailing cultural paradigm as relates to the tension between national pride and to co-opting of national symbols by hate groups and sundry xenophobes. They will voice a thoughtful and even-handed defence of displaying flags in public taking into account the potential socio-political ramifications of doing so in such a charged atmosphere, which will do a fine and thorough job of convincing me that most people who want to festoon every available public surface with a British flag are doing so because they have excellent, evidenced reasons to genuinely believe it will enhance, not worsen, our current cultural climate. It is good to see we are on the same page. By the way what was your prompt for that, you should be careful your AI will start leaning towards the centre
It was "ChatGPT, give me an example of something only an idiot would believe a gammon would say if you asked him why he was hanging an England flag off his wheelie bins - don't hold back on the sarcasm, these guys will believe anything that reassures them".
Wow, well done, garbage in garbage out
I'm still wondering why you think there'd be anything to learn from asking a flag-shagger about his bunting.
In simple terms, all we really have on here is biased personal opinion. I have not read anything from anyone who has said they have actually flown flags or explained why they are flying them, but I have read plenty from people who claim to know. Wouldn’t it make more sense to hear it from the people who are actually flying the flags, rather than just assume we know it all?
Of course there is always the position of thinking we know it all so therefore any other opinion is invalid.
Quite. "Considering I was asking if opinions had been taken from people who actually fly flags and not just assuming our biased opinions are correct, your comment doesn't land quite how you intended it to. | |||
"Have you asked a person who has raised a flag why they are doing it? ... and once that person has said "cos I love my country mate", how much further on are we with the discussion? Is that the only response you think there could be? No, I'm sure most of these people will give me a potted biography of St. George followed by the history of the flag's use since its introduction in the 13th century and its relevance to the prevailing cultural paradigm as relates to the tension between national pride and to co-opting of national symbols by hate groups and sundry xenophobes. They will voice a thoughtful and even-handed defence of displaying flags in public taking into account the potential socio-political ramifications of doing so in such a charged atmosphere, which will do a fine and thorough job of convincing me that most people who want to festoon every available public surface with a British flag are doing so because they have excellent, evidenced reasons to genuinely believe it will enhance, not worsen, our current cultural climate. It is good to see we are on the same page. By the way what was your prompt for that, you should be careful your AI will start leaning towards the centre
It was "ChatGPT, give me an example of something only an idiot would believe a gammon would say if you asked him why he was hanging an England flag off his wheelie bins - don't hold back on the sarcasm, these guys will believe anything that reassures them".
Wow, well done, garbage in garbage out
I'm still wondering why you think there'd be anything to learn from asking a flag-shagger about his bunting.
In simple terms, all we really have on here is biased personal opinion. I have not read anything from anyone who has said they have actually flown flags or explained why they are flying them, but I have read plenty from people who claim to know. Wouldn’t it make more sense to hear it from the people who are actually flying the flags, rather than just assume we know it all?
Of course there is always the position of thinking we know it all so therefore any other opinion is invalid. "Yeah. There is that position. I've spent quite a bit of time, mostly through various professional situations, with people of the type who like to hang a flag or two. What I've found - and this will likely come as no surprise to anyone with eyes and ears - is that what political opinions they do have are very shallow, very rudimentary, very one-dimensional, and generally consist of a simplified repetition of the talking points of whatever demagogue they find most agreeable: Trump, Farage, Johnson, Tommy Ten-Names, the usual suspects. Occasionally you'd get one who'd discovered Jordan Peterson and would try to explain their garbled misunderstanding of Peterson's already totally bankrupt ideas. None of them militant, really, just the amount of racism, Islamophobia, homophobia, transphobia, misogyny and anti-intellectualism you'd expect to find in a person who thinks foreigners should be forced to speak English, even though their own grasp of it is shaky at best. Now, to be completely fair I never asked any of them specifically why they might choose to put a big old flag in their living room window or wherever else. But based on the general standard of their philosophical outlook, I feel extremely safe in assuming they would have no answer that couldn't just be inferred. I am of course happy to be proven wrong, but I haven't been yet. | |||
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"Have you asked a person who has raised a flag why they are doing it? ... and once that person has said "cos I love my country mate", how much further on are we with the discussion? Is that the only response you think there could be? No, I'm sure most of these people will give me a potted biography of St. George followed by the history I've spent quite a bit of time, mostly through various professional situations, with people of the type who like to hang a flag or two. What I've found - and this will likely come as no surprise to anyone with eyes and ears - is that what political opinions they do have are very shallow, very rudimentary, very one-dimensional, and generally consist of a simplified repetition of the talking points of whatever demagogue they find most agreeable: Trump, Farage, Johnson, Tommy Ten-Names, the usual suspects. Occasionally you'd get one who'd discovered Jordan Peterson and would try to explain their garbled misunderstanding of Peterson's already totally bankrupt ideas. None of them militant, really, just the amount of racism, Islamophobia, homophobia, transphobia, misogyny and anti-intellectualism you'd expect to find in a person who thinks foreigners should be forced to speak English, even though their own grasp of it is shaky at best. Now, to be completely fair I never asked any of them specifically why they might choose to put a big old flag in their living room window or wherever else. But based on the general standard of their philosophical outlook, I feel extremely safe in assuming they would have no answer that couldn't just be inferred. I am of course happy to be proven wrong, but I haven't been yet." Nail firmly hit on head! | |||
"Have you asked a person who has raised a flag why they are doing it? ... and once that person has said "cos I love my country mate", how much further on are we with the discussion? Is that the only response you think there could be? No, I'm sure most of these people will give me a potted biography of St. George followed by the history of the flag's use since its introduction in the 13th century and its relevance to the prevailing cultural paradigm as relates to the tension between national pride and to co-opting of national symbols by hate groups and sundry xenophobes. They will voice a thoughtful and even-handed defence of displaying flags in public taking into account the potential socio-political ramifications of doing so in such a charged atmosphere, which will do a fine and thorough job of convincing me that most people who want to festoon every available public surface with a British flag are doing so because they have excellent, evidenced reasons to genuinely believe it will enhance, not worsen, our current cultural climate. It is good to see we are on the same page. By the way what was your prompt for that, you should be careful your AI will start leaning towards the centre
It was "ChatGPT, give me an example of something only an idiot would believe a gammon would say if you asked him why he was hanging an England flag off his wheelie bins - don't hold back on the sarcasm, these guys will believe anything that reassures them".
Wow, well done, garbage in garbage out
I'm still wondering why you think there'd be anything to learn from asking a flag-shagger about his bunting.
In simple terms, all we really have on here is biased personal opinion. I have not read anything from anyone who has said they have actually flown flags or explained why they are flying them, but I have read plenty from people who claim to know. Wouldn’t it make more sense to hear it from the people who are actually flying the flags, rather than just assume we know it all?
Of course there is always the position of thinking we know it all so therefore any other opinion is invalid.
Yeah. There is that position.
I've spent quite a bit of time, mostly through various professional situations, with people of the type who like to hang a flag or two.
What I've found - and this will likely come as no surprise to anyone with eyes and ears - is that what political opinions they do have are very shallow, very rudimentary, very one-dimensional, and generally consist of a simplified repetition of the talking points of whatever demagogue they find most agreeable: Trump, Farage, Johnson, Tommy Ten-Names, the usual suspects. Occasionally you'd get one who'd discovered Jordan Peterson and would try to explain their garbled misunderstanding of Peterson's already totally bankrupt ideas.
None of them militant, really, just the amount of racism, Islamophobia, homophobia, transphobia, misogyny and anti-intellectualism you'd expect to find in a person who thinks foreigners should be forced to speak English, even though their own grasp of it is shaky at best.
Now, to be completely fair I never asked any of them specifically why they might choose to put a big old flag in their living room window or wherever else. But based on the general standard of their philosophical outlook, I feel extremely safe in assuming they would have no answer that couldn't just be inferred.
I am of course happy to be proven wrong, but I haven't been yet."Let me spin this on its head for a moment. What do you make of the people who are taking the flags down, the members of public who are climbing lamp posts, what is driving them to be so confrontational? Are they making assumptions based on thier own bias? | |||
"Have you asked a person who has raised a flag why they are doing it? ... and once that person has said "cos I love my country mate", how much further on are we with the discussion? Is that the only response you think there could be? No, I'm sure most of these people will give me a potted biography of St. George followed by the history of the flag's use since its introduction in the 13th century and its relevance to the prevailing cultural paradigm as relates to the tension between national pride and to co-opting of national symbols by hate groups and sundry xenophobes. They will voice a thoughtful and even-handed defence of displaying flags in public taking into account the potential socio-political ramifications of doing so in such a charged atmosphere, which will do a fine and thorough job of convincing me that most people who want to festoon every available public surface with a British flag are doing so because they have excellent, evidenced reasons to genuinely believe it will enhance, not worsen, our current cultural climate. It is good to see we are on the same page. By the way what was your prompt for that, you should be careful your AI will start leaning towards the centre
It was "ChatGPT, give me an example of something only an idiot would believe a gammon would say if you asked him why he was hanging an England flag off his wheelie bins - don't hold back on the sarcasm, these guys will believe anything that reassures them".
Wow, well done, garbage in garbage out
I'm still wondering why you think there'd be anything to learn from asking a flag-shagger about his bunting.
In simple terms, all we really have on here is biased personal opinion. I have not read anything from anyone who has said they have actually flown flags or explained why they are flying them, but I have read plenty from people who claim to know. Wouldn’t it make more sense to hear it from the people who are actually flying the flags, rather than just assume we know it all?
Of course there is always the position of thinking we know it all so therefore any other opinion is invalid.
Yeah. There is that position.
I've spent quite a bit of time, mostly through various professional situations, with people of the type who like to hang a flag or two.
What I've found - and this will likely come as no surprise to anyone with eyes and ears - is that what political opinions they do have are very shallow, very rudimentary, very one-dimensional, and generally consist of a simplified repetition of the talking points of whatever demagogue they find most agreeable: Trump, Farage, Johnson, Tommy Ten-Names, the usual suspects. Occasionally you'd get one who'd discovered Jordan Peterson and would try to explain their garbled misunderstanding of Peterson's already totally bankrupt ideas.
None of them militant, really, just the amount of racism, Islamophobia, homophobia, transphobia, misogyny and anti-intellectualism you'd expect to find in a person who thinks foreigners should be forced to speak English, even though their own grasp of it is shaky at best.
Now, to be completely fair I never asked any of them specifically why they might choose to put a big old flag in their living room window or wherever else. But based on the general standard of their philosophical outlook, I feel extremely safe in assuming they would have no answer that couldn't just be inferred.
I am of course happy to be proven wrong, but I haven't been yet.
Let me spin this on its head for a moment.
What do you make of the people who are taking the flags down, the members of public who are climbing lamp posts, what is driving them to be so confrontational? Are they making assumptions based on thier own bias?"Have you asked them? ...sorry, it seemed so obvious. Do you see the act of taking down a flag that a private citizen has put up in a public place as confrontational, but not the putting up of the flag in the first place? | |||
"Have you asked a person who has raised a flag why they are doing it? ... and once that person has said "cos I love my country mate", how much further on are we with the discussion? Is that the only response you think there could be? No, I'm sure most of these people will give me a potted biography of St. George followed by the history of the flag's use since its introduction in the 13th century and its relevance to the prevailing cultural paradigm as relates to the tension between national pride and to co-opting of national symbols by hate groups and sundry xenophobes. They will voice a thoughtful and even-handed defence of displaying flags in public taking into account the potential socio-political ramifications of doing so in such a charged atmosphere, which will do a fine and thorough job of convincing me that most people who want to festoon every available public surface with a British flag are doing so because they have excellent, evidenced reasons to genuinely believe it will enhance, not worsen, our current cultural climate. It is good to see we are on the same page. By the way what was your prompt for that, you should be careful your AI will start leaning towards the centre
It was "ChatGPT, give me an example of something only an idiot would believe a gammon would say if you asked him why he was hanging an England flag off his wheelie bins - don't hold back on the sarcasm, these guys will believe anything that reassures them".
Wow, well done, garbage in garbage out
I'm still wondering why you think there'd be anything to learn from asking a flag-shagger about his bunting.
In simple terms, all we really have on here is biased personal opinion. I have not read anything from anyone who has said they have actually flown flags or explained why they are flying them, but I have read plenty from people who claim to know. Wouldn’t it make more sense to hear it from the people who are actually flying the flags, rather than just assume we know it all?
Of course there is always the position of thinking we know it all so therefore any other opinion is invalid.
Yeah. There is that position.
I've spent quite a bit of time, mostly through various professional situations, with people of the type who like to hang a flag or two.
What I've found - and this will likely come as no surprise to anyone with eyes and ears - is that what political opinions they do have are very shallow, very rudimentary, very one-dimensional, and generally consist of a simplified repetition of the talking points of whatever demagogue they find most agreeable: Trump, Farage, Johnson, Tommy Ten-Names, the usual suspects. Occasionally you'd get one who'd discovered Jordan Peterson and would try to explain their garbled misunderstanding of Peterson's already totally bankrupt ideas.
None of them militant, really, just the amount of racism, Islamophobia, homophobia, transphobia, misogyny and anti-intellectualism you'd expect to find in a person who thinks foreigners should be forced to speak English, even though their own grasp of it is shaky at best.
Now, to be completely fair I never asked any of them specifically why they might choose to put a big old flag in their living room window or wherever else. But based on the general standard of their philosophical outlook, I feel extremely safe in assuming they would have no answer that couldn't just be inferred.
I am of course happy to be proven wrong, but I haven't been yet.
Let me spin this on its head for a moment.
What do you make of the people who are taking the flags down, the members of public who are climbing lamp posts, what is driving them to be so confrontational? Are they making assumptions based on thier own bias?
Have you asked them?
...sorry, it seemed so obvious.
Do you see the act of taking down a flag that a private citizen has put up in a public place as confrontational, but not the putting up of the flag in the first place?"I have not asked anyone who has put them up or taken them down, that is the general point. We are here allowing bias to creep into a thread that has no input from anyone, as far as I can see, who has done either. My view is why is it confrontational to put up a national flag, I can see why it is confrontational to pull it down, a person has decided to take action against the action of another. That causes confrontation. | |||
" Flying national flags is obviously a thing of pride so what does it infer if you don't fly a flag? Absolutely nothing. How many of these flags are flown from private properties? I have no idea, I live in Wales. Why are people choosing to attach them to street furniture, which has been mentioned in the press, rather than their own property? If it was pride, surely they would have flags at their own homes, instead of adorning council funded property. Have you ever been to Northern Ireland lol Flags are used to mark territory and nothing to do with national pride and that's the case that you describe. Of course during big events, like football or war anniversary dates it's great to see flags flying from every lamppost. Unfortunately the English flag is in danger of becoming a swastika as a symbol of hatred. Even the poppy has been used as a political hate symbol recently. Just my opinion as what has happened here. That's a useful insight. So, potentially, the flags in England act as a territorial marker, rather than a sense of pride (which is what the people putting up the flags are suggesting). That begs the question, why suggest it's national pride when there are other motives in play? " Is there a reason it can't for for either ? The danger is when it is no longer seem as a symbol of national pride | |||
" I have not asked anyone who has put them up or taken them down, that is the general point. We are here allowing bias to creep into a thread that has no input from anyone, as far as I can see, who has done either." True, but as discussed above I do know people who hang flags and I know their political opinions well enough that asking them why they put up flags is moot. "My view is why is it confrontational to put up a national flag, I can see why it is confrontational to pull it down, a person has decided to take action against the action of another. That causes confrontation. " Hanging a flag is a political statement. Making a political statement in a public place is a confrontational act. Add to that the current cultural connotations of hanging national flags and you have a very confrontational act. It would be nice if we lived in a world where flags didn't matter and we were all happy to have them up. That is not, however, the world we live in. | |||
" Hanging a flag is a political statement. " It absolutely isn't, that's your interpretation of it. But it will be if you allow morons painting roundabouts and pedestrian crossings, that's a political statement, it's also defacing public property and should be dealt with as such. The flag should be flown to celebrate freedom and inclusiveness not fucked up racism and that's stemming from Farage over the years | |||
" Hanging a flag is a political statement. It absolutely isn't, that's your interpretation of it. But it will be if you allow morons painting roundabouts and pedestrian crossings, that's a political statement, it's also defacing public property and should be dealt with as such. The flag should be flown to celebrate freedom and inclusiveness not fucked up racism and that's stemming from Farage over the years " A flag symbolises a nation. Putting one up under any circumstance is a de facto political statement, whatever that statement is. | |||
" Hanging a flag is a political statement. It absolutely isn't, that's your interpretation of it. But it will be if you allow morons painting roundabouts and pedestrian crossings, that's a political statement, it's also defacing public property and should be dealt with as such. The flag should be flown to celebrate freedom and inclusiveness not fucked up racism and that's stemming from Farage over the years A flag symbolises a nation. Putting one up under any circumstance is a de facto political statement, whatever that statement is." Is filling nationality in any form also a political statement?  | |||
" Hanging a flag is a political statement. It absolutely isn't, that's your interpretation of it. But it will be if you allow morons painting roundabouts and pedestrian crossings, that's a political statement, it's also defacing public property and should be dealt with as such. The flag should be flown to celebrate freedom and inclusiveness not fucked up racism and that's stemming from Farage over the years A flag symbolises a nation. Putting one up under any circumstance is a de facto political statement, whatever that statement is. Is filling nationality in any form also a political statement? "Yes. | |||
" Hanging a flag is a political statement. It absolutely isn't, that's your interpretation of it. But it will be if you allow morons painting roundabouts and pedestrian crossings, that's a political statement, it's also defacing public property and should be dealt with as such. The flag should be flown to celebrate freedom and inclusiveness not fucked up racism and that's stemming from Farage over the years A flag symbolises a nation. Putting one up under any circumstance is a de facto political statement, whatever that statement is. Is filling nationality in any form also a political statement?
Yes."You said: "Making a political statement in a public place is a confrontational act." Does that apply for filling forms in a bank? Does that apply for people wearing England jersey for football games? Does that apply for Palestine protestors? | |||
" Hanging a flag is a political statement. It absolutely isn't, that's your interpretation of it. But it will be if you allow morons painting roundabouts and pedestrian crossings, that's a political statement, it's also defacing public property and should be dealt with as such. The flag should be flown to celebrate freedom and inclusiveness not fucked up racism and that's stemming from Farage over the years A flag symbolises a nation. Putting one up under any circumstance is a de facto political statement, whatever that statement is. Is filling nationality in any form also a political statement?
Yes.
You said:
"Making a political statement in a public place is a confrontational act."
Does that apply for filling forms in a bank?
Does that apply for people wearing England jersey for football games?
Does that apply for Palestine protestors?"Yes, Yes, and Yes. | |||
" Hanging a flag is a political statement. It absolutely isn't, that's your interpretation of it. But it will be if you allow morons painting roundabouts and pedestrian crossings, that's a political statement, it's also defacing public property and should be dealt with as such. The flag should be flown to celebrate freedom and inclusiveness not fucked up racism and that's stemming from Farage over the years A flag symbolises a nation. Putting one up under any circumstance is a de facto political statement, whatever that statement is. Is filling nationality in any form also a political statement?
Yes.
You said:
"Making a political statement in a public place is a confrontational act."
Does that apply for filling forms in a bank?
Does that apply for people wearing England jersey for football games?
Does that apply for Palestine protestors?
Yes,
Yes, and
Yes."So we should ask all these people to avoid doing these? | |||
". So we should ask all these people to avoid doing these? "Did I say anybody should be asked to stop doing anything? | |||
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" I have not asked anyone who has put them up or taken them down, that is the general point. We are here allowing bias to creep into a thread that has no input from anyone, as far as I can see, who has done either. True, but as discussed above I do know people who hang flags and I know their political opinions well enough that asking them why they put up flags is moot. My view is why is it confrontational to put up a national flag, I can see why it is confrontational to pull it down, a person has decided to take action against the action of another. That causes confrontation. Hanging a flag is a political statement. Making a political statement in a public place is a confrontational act. Add to that the current cultural connotations of hanging national flags and you have a very confrontational act. It would be nice if we lived in a world where flags didn't matter and we were all happy to have them up. That is not, however, the world we live in." If we expand this argument, we could argue that putting a vote X poster in your window is a political statement and another person has the right to be confrontational and remove it. This sounds far fetched but the situation would be far easier to understand as the poster in the window shows genuine intent to be political, were a flag only offers the viewer of the flag an opportunity to lean into their own biases to determine why the flag has been flown | |||
" If we expand this argument, we could argue that putting a vote X poster in your window is a political statement and another person has the right to be confrontational and remove it. This sounds far fetched but the situation would be far easier to understand as the poster in the window shows genuine intent to be political, were a flag only offers the viewer of the flag an opportunity to lean into their own biases to determine why the flag has been flown" We can get into rights I suppose, but "your window" is not a public space anybody has the right to remove stuff from, although certainly putting a "vote X" poster in it would be a political statement and also confrontational. And once again, putting up a flag for literally any reason is a political act, because a flag is a de facto political object. We can't be sure what the statement is, of course, that much is true, but to pretend that we can't generally infer it with a degree of confidence would be disingenuous. | |||
" If we expand this argument, we could argue that putting a vote X poster in your window is a political statement and another person has the right to be confrontational and remove it. This sounds far fetched but the situation would be far easier to understand as the poster in the window shows genuine intent to be political, were a flag only offers the viewer of the flag an opportunity to lean into their own biases to determine why the flag has been flown We can get into rights I suppose, but "your window" is not a public space anybody has the right to remove stuff from, although certainly putting a "vote X" poster in it would be a political statement and also confrontational. And once again, putting up a flag for literally any reason is a political act, because a flag is a de facto political object. We can't be sure what the statement is, of course, that much is true, but to pretend that we can't generally infer it with a degree of confidence would be disingenuous." If I raise a flag in the street to celebrate a family birthday and someone takes it down, what is the outcome? They have made a decision to remove it based on their own bias. Where does that stop? Is it then okay to target people for how they dress, or how they cut their hair? I had no strong leanings on this before, but the more I think about the consequences of letting people dictate what others can or cannot do based on their own bias, the more I believe removing flags is wrong mainly because of the precedent it sets. | |||
". If I raise a flag in the street to celebrate a family birthday and someone takes it down, what is the outcome?" Why for someone's birthday? What flag do you fly on a birthday? Do people typically put up flags on birthdays? "They have made a decision to remove it based on their own bias. Where does that stop?" I'm pretty sure people don't tear down birthday flags. I'm assuming you mean those spray-painted bedsheets you sometimes see tied to traffic lights when some kid turns 18. "Is it then okay to target people for how they dress, or how they cut their hair?" ...and somehow you've jumped straight across to beating people up for not being fashionable or whatever. Where did that come from? "I had no strong leanings on this before, but the more I think about the consequences of letting people dictate what others can or cannot do based on their own bias, the more I believe removing flags is wrong mainly because of the precedent it sets." We're very specifically talking about the special case of people hanging the union flag and the St. George Cross in public spaces from street furniture in what can be reasonably assumed to be a display of nationalism. Nobody on this forum has said or even implied that they're in favour of just some random guys going around pulling flags down, but to suggest that people doing it is a slippery slope to assault on grounds of personal appearance is a pretty weird thing to say. | |||
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". If I raise a flag in the street to celebrate a family birthday and someone takes it down, what is the outcome? Why for someone's birthday? What flag do you fly on a birthday? Do people typically put up flags on birthdays? They have made a decision to remove it based on their own bias. Where does that stop? I'm pretty sure people don't tear down birthday flags. I'm assuming you mean those spray-painted bedsheets you sometimes see tied to traffic lights when some kid turns 18. Is it then okay to target people for how they dress, or how they cut their hair? ...and somehow you've jumped straight across to beating people up for not being fashionable or whatever. Where did that come from? I had no strong leanings on this before, but the more I think about the consequences of letting people dictate what others can or cannot do based on their own bias, the more I believe removing flags is wrong mainly because of the precedent it sets. We're very specifically talking about the special case of people hanging the union flag and the St. George Cross in public spaces from street furniture in what can be reasonably assumed to be a display of nationalism. Nobody on this forum has said or even implied that they're in favour of just some random guys going around pulling flags down, but to suggest that people doing it is a slippery slope to assault on grounds of personal appearance is a pretty weird thing to say." I don’t think it’s a weird position to consider at all. Take the example of flying a flag for a birthday if someone wanted to fly a George Cross flag to celebrate a family event, why should they run the risk of some biased knuckle dragger pulling it down, because they think the person must be a racist, or nationalist? There was a comment on here suggesting people should fly a different flag instead, which I find a shocking way of thinking. We have people projecting their own bias onto others and, in effect, censoring them to satisfy themselves. | |||
" I don’t think it’s a weird position to consider at all. Take the example of flying a flag for a birthday if someone wanted to fly a George Cross flag to celebrate a family event, why should they run the risk of some biased knuckle dragger pulling it down, because they think the person must be a racist, or nationalist? There was a comment on here suggesting people should fly a different flag instead, which I find a shocking way of thinking. We have people projecting their own bias onto others and, in effect, censoring them to satisfy themselves. " Okay, let's assume you put up an England flag for grandads birthday. I don't much care for it but I agree there's no need for anyone to tear it down - but also, let's be honest, not much risk of it happening either. But even assuming they did, how do you get from that to them having a go at people for their hair and clothes? There's also a huge difference between someone suggesting you fly a different flag and them actually censoring you. I think you might be having a bit of a panic about all of this. Remember: for the overwhelming majority of us on the left there is a real and meaningful difference between stuff we don't like and stuff we'll take steps to prevent. | |||
" I don’t think it’s a weird position to consider at all. Take the example of flying a flag for a birthday if someone wanted to fly a George Cross flag to celebrate a family event, why should they run the risk of some biased knuckle dragger pulling it down, because they think the person must be a racist, or nationalist? There was a comment on here suggesting people should fly a different flag instead, which I find a shocking way of thinking. We have people projecting their own bias onto others and, in effect, censoring them to satisfy themselves. Okay, let's assume you put up an England flag for grandads birthday. I don't much care for it but I agree there's no need for anyone to tear it down - but also, let's be honest, not much risk of it happening either. But even assuming they did, how do you get from that to them having a go at people for their hair and clothes? There's also a huge difference between someone suggesting you fly a different flag and them actually censoring you. I think you might be having a bit of a panic about all of this. Remember: for the overwhelming majority of us on the left there is a real and meaningful difference between stuff we don't like and stuff we'll take steps to prevent." There is no panic, you know that, but it’s a nice way of watering down the argument, so fair play for trying. Back to the point.. Censorship through direct action, with no authority other than individual or group bias, is a slippery slope and we are seeing civil unrest because of that thinking. If someone sees a George Cross flag and immediately thinks racist, I would suggest they need to take a long, hard look at how they have arrived at that conclusion, because it’s not a healthy place to be. | |||
" I don’t think it’s a weird position to consider at all. Take the example of flying a flag for a birthday if someone wanted to fly a George Cross flag to celebrate a family event, why should they run the risk of some biased knuckle dragger pulling it down, because they think the person must be a racist, or nationalist? There was a comment on here suggesting people should fly a different flag instead, which I find a shocking way of thinking. We have people projecting their own bias onto others and, in effect, censoring them to satisfy themselves. Okay, let's assume you put up an England flag for grandads birthday. I don't much care for it but I agree there's no need for anyone to tear it down - but also, let's be honest, not much risk of it happening either. But even assuming they did, how do you get from that to them having a go at people for their hair and clothes? There's also a huge difference between someone suggesting you fly a different flag and them actually censoring you. I think you might be having a bit of a panic about all of this. Remember: for the overwhelming majority of us on the left there is a real and meaningful difference between stuff we don't like and stuff we'll take steps to prevent. There is no panic, you know that, but it’s a nice way of watering down the argument, so fair play for trying. Back to the point.. Censorship through direct action, with no authority other than individual or group bias, is a slippery slope and we are seeing civil unrest because of that thinking. If someone sees a George Cross flag and immediately thinks racist, I would suggest they need to take a long, hard look at how they have arrived at that conclusion, because it’s not a healthy place to be." In fairness, they probably wouldn't stop at thinking "racist". People use heuristics all the time. They can be useful. | |||
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"I was speaking to a police officer at work last night. He told me that he and his colleagues were sent out at night to remove St George’s Cross flags from lampposts etc. I asked if had ever been told to remove Palestian flags, and he said no. TTK is at it again, we can’t get rid of him soon enough." So this random police officer was told by the PM in person to only take down St George's flags? Wow! | |||
"I was speaking to a police officer at work last night. He told me that he and his colleagues were sent out at night to remove St George’s Cross flags from lampposts etc. I asked if had ever been told to remove Palestian flags, and he said no. TTK is at it again, we can’t get rid of him soon enough." I was speaking to another police officer last night and he told me that the police officer you spoke to is a compulsive liar. | |||
"I was speaking to a police officer at work last night. He told me that he and his colleagues were sent out at night to remove St George’s Cross flags from lampposts etc. I asked if had ever been told to remove Palestian flags, and he said no. TTK is at it again, we can’t get rid of him soon enough. So this random police officer was told by the PM in person to only take down St George's flags? Wow! " That is just too silly. I’m sure you know that the police force have a chain of command. But the government will tell the very high ups what to do. | |||
"I was speaking to a police officer at work last night. He told me that he and his colleagues were sent out at night to remove St George’s Cross flags from lampposts etc. I asked if had ever been told to remove Palestian flags, and he said no. TTK is at it again, we can’t get rid of him soon enough. I was speaking to another police officer last night and he told me that the police officer you spoke to is a compulsive liar." Whatever! | |||
"I was speaking to a police officer at work last night. He told me that he and his colleagues were sent out at night to remove St George’s Cross flags from lampposts etc. I asked if had ever been told to remove Palestian flags, and he said no. TTK is at it again, we can’t get rid of him soon enough." Did he also tell you the moon is made of cheese? | |||
"I was speaking to a police officer at work last night. He told me that he and his colleagues were sent out at night to remove St George’s Cross flags from lampposts etc. I asked if had ever been told to remove Palestian flags, and he said no. TTK is at it again, we can’t get rid of him soon enough. I was speaking to another police officer last night and he told me that the police officer you spoke to is a compulsive liar. Whatever!" I know, right? It's like you can't even pass off a dubious anecdote as the truth anymore. | |||
"I was speaking to a police officer at work last night. He told me that he and his colleagues were sent out at night to remove St George’s Cross flags from lampposts etc. I asked if had ever been told to remove Palestian flags, and he said no. TTK is at it again, we can’t get rid of him soon enough. So this random police officer was told by the PM in person to only take down St George's flags? Wow! That is just too silly. I’m sure you know that the police force have a chain of command. But the government will tell the very high ups what to do." Have you read the oath of the constable? The Chief Constables answer to the Police and Crime Commissioner. If what you infer is true, then all 43 police forces across England and Wales would be doing exactly the same thing. The fact that they're not and several have stated their stance on the flags, all different, suggests that the directive has not come from the "high ups" or the government. It's far more likely to be a localised issue. Did you ask this officer as to why only the St George's flags were being removed, or were you satisfied not to question further when you heard no Palestinian flags were being removed? | |||
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"So you think I’m lying? I work 14.00 - 23.00, and often see police officers and talk to them. This one came in on his own, and when I asked if he’d been busy, that is what he told me. It’s the truth, but you literally can think or say what you want. I’m getting ready to go in right now and have no time to answer repeated stupid posts on this." Had time to post that bullshit story though, didn't you. | |||
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"Quick Google search of Brighton and Hove Council St George's Flag removal. The local paper ran a story. The flags are being taken down due to the Highway Act 1980. Contractors faced verbal abuse and refused to complete the work unless accompanied by police. It seems the Police are exercising their powers under the highways act to remove them at the request of the Council. Any excuse to dramatise something that wasn't a drama in the first instance. " ...you mean they weren't personally instructed by Starmer to leave up all the Palestinian flags? It's almost too far-fetched to believe. | |||
"I was speaking to a police officer at work last night. He told me that he and his colleagues were sent out at night to remove St George’s Cross flags from lampposts etc. I asked if had ever been told to remove Palestian flags, and he said no. TTK is at it again, we can’t get rid of him soon enough." Of course he did.. Did he also lift his lapel to show his 'i love Nigel' pin..? Whilst winking theatrically.. | |||
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" I stated facts. The police are having to waste their time removing something that shouldn’t be removed" Have you, though? Th facts are that contractors were being verbally abused and refused to complete the work unless accompanied by police. Police have powers, under the highways Act 1980, to remove unauthorised items. The council had deemed the flags unauthorised, police acted accordingly. You can read up on the legislation yourself, it's readily available. | |||
" I stated facts. The police are having to waste their time removing something that shouldn’t be removed Have you, though? Th facts are that contractors were being verbally abused and refused to complete the work unless accompanied by police. Police have powers, under the highways Act 1980, to remove unauthorised items. The council had deemed the flags unauthorised, police acted accordingly. You can read up on the legislation yourself, it's readily available. " Then there becomes a problem of optics. The Palestine flags in major cities need removing, but if the workforce don't have police protection they don't remove them.... Soft targets give a distorted view.. | |||
" I stated facts. The police are having to waste their time removing something that shouldn’t be removed Have you, though? Th facts are that contractors were being verbally abused and refused to complete the work unless accompanied by police. Police have powers, under the highways Act 1980, to remove unauthorised items. The council had deemed the flags unauthorised, police acted accordingly. You can read up on the legislation yourself, it's readily available. Then there becomes a problem of optics. The Palestine flags in major cities need removing, but if the workforce don't have police protection they don't remove them.... Soft targets give a distorted view.." I suppose that also depends on how many Palestinian flags were being flown from council owned street furniture. One would hope that the directive would have been to remove all unauthorised flags no matter which nation they represented. Maybe someone could do an FOI request to the council concerned? | |||
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"Suggesting flags being flown or painted on roundabouts COULD affect house prices is a bit of a stretch. You know what such a suggestion does do? It keeps folk distracted from actual problems and also leaves opening divisive arguments. Now who's interests does that serve... "A bit like swans in Royal parks being eaten, or tampons in 'male' toilets, you mean? | |||
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"It came to me whilst driving around today. The real reason behind all this is that councils want to get rid of street lighting completely. They already reduced the illumination to next to nothing by pretending to save astronomy and now they will be moving towards total removal of lamp posts under the pretence of stopping people from flying flags." You know this sounds mental right? | |||
"It came to me whilst driving around today. The real reason behind all this is that councils want to get rid of street lighting completely. They already reduced the illumination to next to nothing by pretending to save astronomy and now they will be moving towards total removal of lamp posts under the pretence of stopping people from flying flags. You know this sounds mental right?" Fundamental, no less! | |||
"It came to me whilst driving around today. The real reason behind all this is that councils want to get rid of street lighting completely. They already reduced the illumination to next to nothing by pretending to save astronomy and now they will be moving towards total removal of lamp posts under the pretence of stopping people from flying flags. You know this sounds mental right? Fundamental, no less!" You alright mate? | |||
" You alright mate?" Conspiracy theories have to start somewhere and I fancied starting one! | |||
"You alright mate?" Some people have no sense of humour. | |||
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"It put our friends off buying a house, as there was a union flag flying in next doors garden. " that’s what they want you to believe. | |||
"It put our friends off buying a house, as there was a union flag flying in next doors garden. that’s what they want you to believe. " Or maybe its true. | |||
"It put our friends off buying a house, as there was a union flag flying in next doors garden. that’s what they want you to believe. Or maybe its true. " Maybe, Mrs c | |||
