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Free travel for all in London ?
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By *el65 OP Man 35 weeks ago
paisley |
So today I was reading in a post that everyone in London should get free travel to help the economy???
Less cars to help the environment
And it would help working class people who pay a lot to get to work ( which is true)
And would ease the pain of staff dealing with fair dodging??
It would also help those who want to travel around london but are a bit skint ?
The guy who is proposing this says that the money that it would cost would be covered by ???
Raising the taxes of??? The working people!!
So why should people who already pay to get to work pay for the people who don’t or won’t work to get around
Now yes I’m from Glasgow but spent most of my working time in London
Thoughts ? |
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Personally I think it’s a good idea. We live in Greater Manchester which now has an integrated bus network. Raise Council Tax by(say) £500 to £1000 and make public transport free then most people would see a net gain. If the tax rises are much greater than that then it starts to make less financial sense for the public. |
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TFL today generates about £9 Billion in revenue. If we assume that's the break even cost to run the service, considering that London population is 9.8 million, we are looking at over £900 per person(including kids) per year. Not sure if people are willing to pay that much. |
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I asked ChatGPT the following "How much does TfL (Transport for London) generate each year ? And how much does it cost to run TfL ? Does TfL make a profit and if it does, for whom ?"
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Reply was :
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#How much it “generates” each year
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£9.16 billion total revenue in 2023/24, made up of £5.23 bn passenger fares + £1.61 bn other operating income (advertising, property, road user charging, etc.) + £1.91 bn retained business rates + £0.40 bn other grants. If you only count TfL’s own-source income (fares + other operating income), that was £6.85 bn.
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#How much it costs to run
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£7.85 billion operating costs in 2023/24 (the day-to-day cost of running the network). Gross expenditure (which also includes things like debt servicing and revenue support to capital) totalled £9.02 bn.
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#Does TfL make a profit? For whom?
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TfL is a public authority with no shareholders, so it doesn’t pay out “profit.” In 2023/24 it recorded an operating surplus of £138 m after interest and renewals; by policy this is reinvested back into the network (renewals and upgrades). In 2024/25 TfL reported another operating surplus of £166 m, again reinvested. |
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Further information.
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*** Main income sources ***
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Passenger fares – the single largest source of operating income.
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Road-user charging & compliance – Congestion Charge, ULEZ and LEZ fees (with their own operating costs).
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Commercial income – advertising, sponsorships (e.g., Santander Cycles), film/brand licensing, and property income/dividends from Places for London.
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Borrowing – PWLB, EIB, bond/CP programmes, etc., for capital investment (not day-to-day ops).
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*** Public funding (tax-based) ***
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Retained Business Rates (RBR) – a share of London business rates passed on by the GLA; this is TfL’s largest grant-type income. (Business rates are a tax on non-domestic property.)
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GLA Council Tax precept – part of London Council Tax that the Mayor allocates to TfL. (Increases in this line were a condition of recent DfT funding deals.)
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Government grants (central taxation) – mainly capital grants from the Department for Transport for renewals and upgrades (e.g., £250m in Dec 2023; plus a one-year £485m for 2025/26 and a multi-year £2.2bn capital settlement for 2026/27–2029/30).
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COVID-era extraordinary support – time-limited revenue support from central government. |
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By *abioMan 35 weeks ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
Long post coming… bear with me!
It’s an interesting concept…. Because it has been trailed in other cities (not “all” transport.. but “some”) and it’s actually been successful to a point…. And in my home town (old home town) of New York, the favourite to now win the election, Zohran Mamdani (look him up because his campaign has been something else!) one of his main campaign promises is to make New York City buses free to use
So … the argument isn’t all transport as such but make buses free
Now, different cities have tried different concepts of this , for example here in Newcastle, when the road network was further restricted in the city centre, they introduced the quayside bus network, and when they introduced it they made it free to use for I think the first year
It worked, it encouraged people to use it who would not have before
In New York it’s been mini trialed before, in each of the five boroughs, they made one bus route free to use
They found it was a success for a few reasons…
1) there was more usage.. instead of using cars they used the bus.. environmentally better
2) less dwell time and buses kept to schedule better because people were not faffing around with money/change
3) there were less assaults on buses drivers and staff
Now .. could it work in London?
London has a much more integrated bus train network than New York (for example Oyster)
It could work…
1) it would potentially help people economically
2) it may encourage car drivers off the roads onto buses
3) some people may switch from the underground/overground onto buses
So as long as the bus network is there.. which London definitely does.. then can’t see why not
But everyone is going to be looking at New York… |
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I tried another question "If TfL was to be a "free" service, and it received no income from passengers or any of the other funding sources, then how much would need to be raised each year to pay for this ? If the cost was assigned to income tax for every person in the UK who pays income tax, how much would each person need to pay to fund it ?"
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Day-to-day operations only: £8.511 bn (TfL full-year operating costs 2024/25).
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Keep operations and current-level investment going: £10.945 bn (ops £8.511 bn + net interest £0.429 bn + capital expenditure £2.005 bn)
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*** What would that be per UK Income Tax payer? ***
HMRC estimates 37.4 million Income Tax payers in tax year 2024/25.
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Ops only: about £228 per payer per year (~£19/month, £4.38/week).
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Ops + interest + capital: about £293 per payer per year (~£24/month, £5.63/week).
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"I tried another question "If TfL was to be a "free" service, and it received no income from passengers or any of the other funding sources, then how much would need to be raised each year to pay for this ? If the cost was assigned to income tax for every person in the UK who pays income tax, how much would each person need to pay to fund it ?"
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Day-to-day operations only: £8.511 bn (TfL full-year operating costs 2024/25).
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Keep operations and current-level investment going: £10.945 bn (ops £8.511 bn + net interest £0.429 bn + capital expenditure £2.005 bn)
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*** What would that be per UK Income Tax payer? ***
HMRC estimates 37.4 million Income Tax payers in tax year 2024/25.
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Ops only: about £228 per payer per year (~£19/month, £4.38/week).
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Ops + interest + capital: about £293 per payer per year (~£24/month, £5.63/week).
"
Looks like the mighty AI wants to tax the entire UK just to make travel free for the Londoners and tourists in London. |
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"Looks like the mighty AI wants to tax the entire UK just to make travel free for the Londoners and tourists in London. "
Only because that's what I asked it to do.
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I then asked it to make all public transport free at the point of use in the UK.
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Short answer: roughly £400 per UK income taxpayer per year to make all buses + National Rail “free at point of use” today (replacing the farebox only). If you also make metros/trams (e.g., London Underground, Metrolink, DLR, etc.) free, it rises to about £480 per taxpayer per year.
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It went in to explicit detail after that, but it's too long to post here.
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I'd be very happy to pay £480 a year so that I and my fellow citizens can get about for free. Even if I don't use it, I consider that a nice gift to friends, family and strangers. |
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"Personally I think it’s a good idea. We live in Greater Manchester which now has an integrated bus network. Raise Council Tax by(say) £500 to £1000 and make public transport free then most people would see a net gain. If the tax rises are much greater than that then it starts to make less financial sense for the public."
The ones that would gain are the unemployed who do el pay it we do 😂 |
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Public transport in some areas might make this a worthwhile scheme but I'd be long sorry to pay £480 a year to make use of the inefficient, dirty, frequently late or cancelled travesty that passes for public transport in this area.
Two buses with a twenty minute wait between them to travel 15 miles in an hour and a half with a long walk either end is not an attractive proposition to me. |
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"Looks like the mighty AI wants to tax the entire UK just to make travel free for the Londoners and tourists in London.
Only because that's what I asked it to do.
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I then asked it to make all public transport free at the point of use in the UK.
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Short answer: roughly £400 per UK income taxpayer per year to make all buses + National Rail “free at point of use” today (replacing the farebox only). If you also make metros/trams (e.g., London Underground, Metrolink, DLR, etc.) free, it rises to about £480 per taxpayer per year.
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It went in to explicit detail after that, but it's too long to post here.
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I'd be very happy to pay £480 a year so that I and my fellow citizens can get about for free. Even if I don't use it, I consider that a nice gift to friends, family and strangers."
Something doesn't add up. Your original calculation for TFL alone was about £220 just for ops. In this new calculation, you just have to add another £80 for covering underground, DLR, etc? |
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"I'm not sure the majority of people spend £500-£1000k a year on public transport. "
your joking I'm paying 80 quid a month to get backwards and forwards to work and I know plenty who have to travel a lot further than me
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"I'm not sure the majority of people spend £500-£1000k a year on public transport. your joking I'm paying 80 quid a month to get backwards and forwards to work and I know plenty who have to travel a lot further than me"
I’ve spent less than 80 quid on public transport in my whole life, mind you that’s probably because out in the sticks there is fuck all public transport  |
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"I'm not sure the majority of people spend £500-£1000k a year on public transport. "
That's the point. If they have already paid for it then they may use it.
I would argue that most people who pay for their travel pay more than £1000 per year.
It would hopefully get a good number of cars off the road, particularly if combined with road pricing.
It will only work in urban areas with reasonable public transport. |
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By *uietbloke67Man 35 weeks ago
outside your bedroom window ;-) |
"So today I was reading in a post that everyone in London should get free travel to help the economy???
Less cars to help the environment
And it would help working class people who pay a lot to get to work ( which is true)
And would ease the pain of staff dealing with fair dodging??
It would also help those who want to travel around london but are a bit skint ?
The guy who is proposing this says that the money that it would cost would be covered by ???
Raising the taxes of??? The working people!!
So why should people who already pay to get to work pay for the people who don’t or won’t work to get around
Now yes I’m from Glasgow but spent most of my working time in London
Thoughts ? "
Great idea and you live in a country without peak fare times and free bus travel for the over 60s and the under 21's, well I think its 21's. |
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By *uietbloke67Man 35 weeks ago
outside your bedroom window ;-) |
"I asked ChatGPT the following "How much does TfL (Transport for London) generate each year ? And how much does it cost to run TfL ? Does TfL make a profit and if it does, for whom ?"
.
Reply was :
.
#How much it “generates” each year
.
£9.16 billion total revenue in 2023/24, made up of £5.23 bn passenger fares + £1.61 bn other operating income (advertising, property, road user charging, etc.) + £1.91 bn retained business rates + £0.40 bn other grants. If you only count TfL’s own-source income (fares + other operating income), that was £6.85 bn.
.
#How much it costs to run
.
£7.85 billion operating costs in 2023/24 (the day-to-day cost of running the network). Gross expenditure (which also includes things like debt servicing and revenue support to capital) totalled £9.02 bn.
.
#Does TfL make a profit? For whom?
.
TfL is a public authority with no shareholders, so it doesn’t pay out “profit.” In 2023/24 it recorded an operating surplus of £138 m after interest and renewals; by policy this is reinvested back into the network (renewals and upgrades). In 2024/25 TfL reported another operating surplus of £166 m, again reinvested."
Gonna ask if Im going to get my Willie kissed by a blonde female this week  |
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"I'm not sure the majority of people spend £500-£1000k a year on public transport.
That's the point. If they have already paid for it then they may use it.
I would argue that most people who pay for their travel pay more than £1000 per year.
It would hopefully get a good number of cars off the road, particularly if combined with road pricing.
It will only work in urban areas with reasonable public transport."
I was thinking wtf should I pay a extra tax I don't use public transport then thinking about it, If paying less then £3 a day guarantees it takes thousands of cars of the road a day then I definitely would pay |
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"
London has a much more integrated bus train network than New York (for example Oyster) "
When were you last in NYC? Anything MTA-run (OMNY/MetroCard) is actually much simpler than London, with fixed fares. Yes, it gets a bit messy with stuff like the LIRR and other providers, and although their cash policy is tighter on buses (exact change only, no pennies or big bills), they need to get rid of that option. |
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Londoners would not want to shoulder the entire burden of this, given how many non-Londoners would use it. Non-Londoners world now want to pay any part of this, since they rarely use the TFL network. Moreover, it's a very poor deal outside of the densely populated areas major cities.
This whole thing would only work with a national travel system that offers a good service all over the country, which would be significantly more expensive than it currently is (like Switzerland, for example). And then you run into the actual number of people paying, and how much (percentage of income? fixed rate?). The cost of the system will rise as more people use it (both a good and bad thing).
It's not impossible, but some people will end up feeling very hard done by. |
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If you ask Chat GPT a question chances are you'll get a wrong answer; ask a silly question and you'll get a silly answer. The funding structure for TfL is not as A1 would have you believe. It is true that the highest single source of funding is paid fares, but it is not the majority source. It is also incorrect that TfL does not receive operating subsidy. It's far more complex than that. TfL receives fuding via the GLA. In 2020 GLA's share of business rate retention increased from 20% to 37% - that's on top of the 30% retained by the London boroughs. So a gross 67% retained in London whereas for most of the rest of the country it's 50%, and that latter from a much lower rateable tax base. The tax take from the mere presence of City corporations is massive. In addition last year directly received £320m from ULEZ charges (excluding PCNs, figures not available). Then the recent ca 50% increase in DART crossing charges will see that revenue increase from ca. £400m to £650m and that flows back directly to TfL. In my opinion the skewing of business rate retention towards greater London means that the rest of the country is indirectly funding a disproporionate share of TfLs costs. Bear in mind too that the over 60s resident in the London boroughs enjoy free travel on all TfL transport modes whereas the rest of the country has to wait for the state retirement age to receive a free bus pass. And that's if there is any public transport to enjoy. |
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By (user no longer on site) 34 weeks ago
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Presumably the only people who would be in favour of such a scheme would the people who are already paying more for their travel than the tax would be. Everyone else would be worse off.
Why should someone on a modest income who never travels subsidise the travel of a City banker or NHS Manager who earns 5 - 10 times what they do?
As for the obsession with “getting cars off the road” why should it be a priority? I live in a city and drive to work. If I started doing the same journey entirely by walking/bus/train it would probably triple or quadruple my daily commute. Whether the journey would be “free” or not isn’t a consideration.
If I switched to public transport it would eat into my leisure time and make me less productive at work as I try to get the lost time back. The country is unproductive enough as is without looking at ways of wasting people's time some more and making them spend their money on inefficient crap rather than on the stuff they actually want. |
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This is an interesting discussion and, surprisingly for the Politics forum, hasn’t descended into juvenile abuse yet.
My view on a couple of points from above:
Why should people who live within the area of increased tax subsidise those who don’t? They wouldn’t - live within the area (within M25 or in Greater Manchester etc.) and pay increased council tax and you (and your family) het travel cards giving free bus travel. Everyone else has to pay, with the option of paying the same for the same cards.
In terms of journey time, if a good percentage of eligible people use the free travel then it reduces congestion therefore reducing travel time for others, as well as pollution. |
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By (user no longer on site) 34 weeks ago
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"This is an interesting discussion and, surprisingly for the Politics forum, hasn’t descended into juvenile abuse yet.
My view on a couple of points from above:
Why should people who live within the area of increased tax subsidise those who don’t? They wouldn’t - live within the area (within M25 or in Greater Manchester etc.) and pay increased council tax and you (and your family) het travel cards giving free bus travel. Everyone else has to pay, with the option of paying the same for the same cards.
In terms of journey time, if a good percentage of eligible people use the free travel then it reduces congestion therefore reducing travel time for others, as well as pollution."
The biggest impact on my daily commute by car has happened since COVID. I think my commute time has actually dropped by 30-40% post COVID I assume because the number of people working from home has grown considerably and thus reduced the number of people travelling each day whether by car or otherwise.
If the focus is “getting cars off the road” then the answer may be somewhere other than making public transport “free”.
Some people may be sensitive to transport price changes but many people (I suspect the majority) won’t be. People like the ease and convenience of the car, being in your own space, being able to carry stuff you need for post work activities, shopping, being able to easily pick up the kids etc.
Public transport just makes their lives generally more difficult. And anyway who wants to spend their commute listening to some adolescent’s grunge music with the stench of everywhere.
“Cars on the road” like anything else should be self regulating in terms of numbers. If commuting by car is a nightmare due to congestion people will look at alternative methods.
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By *abioMan 34 weeks ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
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London has a much more integrated bus train network than New York (for example Oyster)
When were you last in NYC? Anything MTA-run (OMNY/MetroCard) is actually much simpler than London, with fixed fares. Yes, it gets a bit messy with stuff like the LIRR and other providers, and although their cash policy is tighter on buses (exact change only, no pennies or big bills), they need to get rid of that option."
The integration is there for some parts of the MTA, the bus and the subway, but it doesn’t extend to LIRR and Metro North… and even though I lived and still go back to New York a bit… even I concede the London bus network is better than New York… especially trying to get in and out of Manhattan where the buses crawl compared to central London
I absolutely do believe free travel on London buses would work as a compliment to paying if you want to use the underground/overground/rail within TfL
But one of my main points still remains in that if you make the free dwell time will reduce and buses will run to schedule better
I don’t think just making London buses free would cost London taxpayers that much more |
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"
I absolutely do believe free travel on London buses would work as a compliment to paying if you want to use the underground/overground/rail within TfL
But one of my main points still remains in that if you make the free dwell time will reduce and buses will run to schedule better
I don’t think just making London buses free would cost London taxpayers that much more "
How many people (as a proportion) do you think don't take buses due to cost, who would take them if free? |
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If that takes thousands of cars out of the Congestion charge area they'll lose that revenue too.
I think it's £15/day, at certain times.
I like the idea, but I fear it would make bus travel a nightmare for me, if they don't add more buses.
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Perhaps, 10, 20, maybe more years in to the future, car ownership will be turned on its head when you can dial a ride and a autonomous vehicle just turns up, then takes you where you want to go.
You can sell your existing car, and just pay and use what you want when you want it. For those lucky enough to have a garage ? You've just gained a spare room for the home.
Moving from a car-owning society to a rental-using one, has many knock on effects elsewhere. |
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By *abioMan 34 weeks ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"
I absolutely do believe free travel on London buses would work as a compliment to paying if you want to use the underground/overground/rail within TfL
But one of my main points still remains in that if you make the free dwell time will reduce and buses will run to schedule better
I don’t think just making London buses free would cost London taxpayers that much more
How many people (as a proportion) do you think don't take buses due to cost, who would take them if free?"
It’s a good question… I can only go back to the New York five boroughs experiment… on the 5 routes that were free, the ridership on those routes went up 25-30% |
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"
I absolutely do believe free travel on London buses would work as a compliment to paying if you want to use the underground/overground/rail within TfL
But one of my main points still remains in that if you make the free dwell time will reduce and buses will run to schedule better
I don’t think just making London buses free would cost London taxpayers that much more
How many people (as a proportion) do you think don't take buses due to cost, who would take them if free?
It’s a good question… I can only go back to the New York five boroughs experiment… on the 5 routes that were free, the ridership on those routes went up 25-30%"
Were these people drivers converted, or people who couldn't afford it before? The former is an ecological win, the latter is a charitable act. |
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