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Ukraine
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"So the orange cunt has greased his ass and bent over to Putin " What would you suggest as way forward to end this war? | |||
"So the orange cunt has greased his ass and bent over to Putin" It does kind of look that way. The Kremlin aren't giving any ground at all and according to the BBC even said there was "no process that could be called 'consultations'". And although Zelensky is trying hard not to offend Trump, according to Reuters Umerov has denied that Ukraine has agreed to Trump's plan. The main question is will the US really stop giving Ukraine military aid if they don't surrender to Russian demands. If they did it probably still wouldn't be the end as Europe is giving Ukraine far more in aid than the US. It's just that not much of this is military aid. From the Ukrainian persepectove they have nothing to gain from surrender. Even vague talk of a US security guarantee is rejected by Russia. If the US does abandon Ukraine then Europeans will need to rethink how worthwhile our alliance with the US is. My own thoughts are that Europe should demand the gradual withdrawl of US military and intelligence facilities from Europe as it's clear that the US under Trump is more allied to Russia than it is to Europe. It should be made known to the US that this would be reversable if a future US administration changes course and no longer sides with forces hostile to us. | |||
"Unfortunately nobody has stepped up from Europe, took them a year to send a tank and two years to send a jet. The only end to this (for the time being) is for Ukraine to concede territory. " I am surprised at this. The UK is still in Europe and like France, Germany, Spain etc. have provided arms and money to Ukraine. The EU had also provided funding to help Ukraine. The Coalition of the willing have also been doing there best for Ukraine. I don't know where you get your information from to suggest otherwise but what would you like to see Europe doing moving forward? | |||
"So the orange cunt has greased his ass and bent over to Putin " he is in it for as much as he can gain out of it for his own pocket | |||
"So the orange cunt has greased his ass and bent over to Putin he is in it for as much as he can gain out of it for his own pocket " 
I see he's received some very substantial gold bling from Switzerland. Mind, the tariffs drop on Swiss goods is a separate measure.  | |||
"Unfortunately nobody has stepped up from Europe, took them a year to send a tank and two years to send a jet. The only end to this (for the time being) is for Ukraine to concede territory. I am surprised at this. The UK is still in Europe and like France, Germany, Spain etc. have provided arms and money to Ukraine. The EU had also provided funding to help Ukraine. The Coalition of the willing have also been doing there best for Ukraine. I don't know where you get your information from to suggest otherwise but what would you like to see Europe doing moving forward? " If they wanted Ukraine to win then arm them properly. Whats been given is wholly inadequate, too little and far too late. European nato members sat on several thousand fighter jets and 11,500 battle tanks. | |||
"If they wanted Ukraine to win then arm them properly. Whats been given is wholly inadequate, too little and far too late. European nato members sat on several thousand fighter jets and 11,500 battle tanks." How many jets and tanks has the US provided? | |||
"Unfortunately nobody has stepped up from Europe, took them a year to send a tank and two years to send a jet. The only end to this (for the time being) is for Ukraine to concede territory. I am surprised at this. The UK is still in Europe and like France, Germany, Spain etc. have provided arms and money to Ukraine. The EU had also provided funding to help Ukraine. The Coalition of the willing have also been doing there best for Ukraine. I don't know where you get your information from to suggest otherwise but what would you like to see Europe doing moving forward? If they wanted Ukraine to win then arm them properly. Whats been given is wholly inadequate, too little and far too late. European nato members sat on several thousand fighter jets and 11,500 battle tanks. " remind me what they are doing with the fighter jets? Didn't Ukraine shoot one down not long after receiving them and as for tanks they were losing loads until the started putting the cages over them after laughing at Russia earlier on for putting g cages over there tanks,fact is unless the u.s and Europe put boots on The ground it's a matter of time before Ukraine will be forced to agree with whatever is put in front of them | |||
"it's a matter of time before Ukraine will be forced to agree with whatever is put in front of them" While Trump says that deadlines can be extended if things are "going well", the White House believes that Thursday 27 November - Thanksgiving in the US - is "an appropriate time” (BBC a few minutes ago) | |||
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"It seems to be difficult to find a definitive answer to my question, so if anyone else has better info please post. But as far as a quick search reveals the US has sent 0 jets and 76 tanks to Ukraine. ." Vs estimates of 10,000 Russian tanks ( with estimates of 4-5k losses) Remarkable Ukraine has kept this fight going with such limited western support. | |||
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"So the orange cunt has greased his ass and bent over to Putin What would you suggest as way forward to end this war? " Will you be ok when Putin takes half of eastern Europe because the orange cunt sucks up to him ? | |||
"Vs estimates of 10,000 Russian tanks ( with estimates of 4-5k losses)" Ukraine received 49 tanks from Australia, 8 from Canada, over 100 old ones from the Czech Republic, 30 from Denmark, an unspecified number from France, 121 from Germany, 45 from the Netherlands, 31 from North Macedonia, 8 from Norway, 318 from Poland, 3 from Portugal, 28 from Slovenia, 10 from Spain, 10 from Sweden and 14 from the UK. Not many but it puts the number from the US into perspective. "Remarkable Ukraine has kept this fight going with such limited western support." They are fighting for their country. If the UK was invaded by Russia we wouldn't all just surrender. Also they've had a lot of financial support from Europe and the US has supplied them with most of the ammunition required to hold Russia at bay since Feb 2022. I hope Trump comes to his senses but I think he believes that the Ukrainians will surrender. I don't think they will as they have nothing to gain by doing so. Therefore it could get even more ugly that it already is. | |||
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" Not many but it puts the number from the US into perspective. " In contrast to what they supplied to Israel to flatten Gaza, it’s not a lot. And a lend lease loan | |||
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"So the orange cunt has greased his ass and bent over to Putin What would you suggest as way forward to end this war? Will you be ok when Putin takes half of eastern Europe because the orange cunt sucks up to him ?" How do you think he is sucking up to Putin? Putin is holding all the cards and simply throwing more soldiers and weapons at the Russian military isn't going to alter the course of the war or the outcomes. | |||
"So the orange cunt has greased his ass and bent over to Putin What would you suggest as way forward to end this war? Will you be ok when Putin takes half of eastern Europe because the orange cunt sucks up to him ? How do you think he is sucking up to Putin? Putin is holding all the cards and simply throwing more soldiers and weapons at the Russian military isn't going to alter the course of the war or the outcomes. " It will be 45 months tomorrow that this started No official casualty figures but must be 1M+ Time to end it. | |||
"No official casualty figures but must be 1M+" Estimates of fatalities by Harvard Kennedy School Belfer Center seem to be... Russian military between 100,000 and 250,000. Russian civilians 7,175. Ukrainian military between 60,000 and 100,000. Ukrainian civilians 14,534. | |||
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"So the orange cunt has greased his ass and bent over to Putin What would you suggest as way forward to end this war? Will you be ok when Putin takes half of eastern Europe because the orange cunt sucks up to him ?" yes  | |||
"So the orange cunt has greased his ass and bent over to Putin What would you suggest as way forward to end this war? Will you be ok when Putin takes half of eastern Europe because the orange cunt sucks up to him ? How do you think he is sucking up to Putin? Putin is holding all the cards and simply throwing more soldiers and weapons at the Russian military isn't going to alter the course of the war or the outcomes. " Did he bow to Iran ? | |||
"So the orange cunt has greased his ass and bent over to Putin What would you suggest as way forward to end this war? Will you be ok when Putin takes half of eastern Europe because the orange cunt sucks up to him ? How do you think he is sucking up to Putin? Putin is holding all the cards and simply throwing more soldiers and weapons at the Russian military isn't going to alter the course of the war or the outcomes. Did he bow to Iran ?" No, he bowed to Israel!😁 | |||
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"If your ancestors had that attitude you'd probably be speaking German now Maybe they should start teaching Russian and Mandarin in schools to prepare the children " Well thanks to British colonial Imperialism we all speaking English right now here in Ireland instead!😅 Since WWII, the USA is responsible for more wars and deaths, coups, dictatorships and puppet governments than any other country. (Before that it was the British Empire) It's a country constantly at War. And it's not for our "freedom". It's talk of "freedom" and "Western Values" are simply empty words or slogans to get people on board with their next War or "intervention". Just ask the Palestinians if you dont believe me! Our "Western Values lie buried in the rubble of Gaza! If such values ever even existed in the first place. The West creates "enemies" we were not at odds or War with Russia or China until the USA (and its lackeys) decided we should be, now we are all supposed to hate and fear Russia & China. You may have forgotton but Russia and China bore the brunt of WWII, suffering by far the most casualties of any nation. I think 20 to 25 million deaths for Russia (the Soviet Union) alone. I know our Hollywood movies would have you think that the USA and Britian that won WWII, but the simple fact is that it was the Soviet Union who turned the tide of the War against the Nazis All the Western powers did was to hasten the inevitable defeat of Nazi Germany. (-Not the belittle their sacrifice of those who served. I have family myself who served in both World Wars). "The West" makes up just around 10% of the population of this planet. Do we just ignore the other 90%, most of humanity itself? Like it or not, we no longer live in a Unipolar World. America cannot and should not be the sole Empire of this entire planet. We just have to learn to accept this new reality of a Multipolar World, and learn to get along, trade, exchange ideas, work and live together on this planet we share, as equals. Where nations respect eachothers independence and sovereignty. | |||
"So the orange cunt has greased his ass and bent over to Putin What would you suggest as way forward to end this war? Will you be ok when Putin takes half of eastern Europe because the orange cunt sucks up to him ? How do you think he is sucking up to Putin? Putin is holding all the cards and simply throwing more soldiers and weapons at the Russian military isn't going to alter the course of the war or the outcomes. Did he bow to Iran ?" Iran is a completely different proposition! Decisions of this magnitude aren't binary.. | |||
"So the orange cunt has greased his ass and bent over to Putin What would you suggest as way forward to end this war? Will you be ok when Putin takes half of eastern Europe because the orange cunt sucks up to him ? How do you think he is sucking up to Putin? Putin is holding all the cards and simply throwing more soldiers and weapons at the Russian military isn't going to alter the course of the war or the outcomes. It will be 45 months tomorrow that this started No official casualty figures but must be 1M+ Time to end it. " Longer than that if you include the invasion in 2014. Putin has been invading and meddling with surrounding countries for decades. Georgia is another country he has a grip on. They bombed them and still steal land without any threat from nato or the rest of the world. | |||
"So the orange cunt has greased his ass and bent over to Putin What would you suggest as way forward to end this war? Will you be ok when Putin takes half of eastern Europe because the orange cunt sucks up to him ? How do you think he is sucking up to Putin? Putin is holding all the cards and simply throwing more soldiers and weapons at the Russian military isn't going to alter the course of the war or the outcomes. It will be 45 months tomorrow that this started No official casualty figures but must be 1M+ Time to end it. Longer than that if you include the invasion in 2014. Putin has been invading and meddling with surrounding countries for decades. Georgia is another country he has a grip on. They bombed them and still steal land without any threat from nato or the rest of the world." If Putin decides to invade the UK I think it wouldn't last 45 minutes let alone 45 months. Cutback by successive governments has left our military woefully inadequate, and I can't see the masses picking up arms to defend the country I can just hear them now as they are queuing up for their Gregg's " omg I iz not gonna fight, u can't tell me wot to do right , besides I heard from a guy on the internet that right the invasion ain't real it's just a conspiracy to control people innit " So fair play to the Ukrainian for putting up such a defence against Russia but this isn't a new thing between the two countries it goes back a long time and the Ukrainian people have suffered many losses. My concerns are that if Putin gets what he wants where next? Coz he sure as hell won't be satisfied with just a bit he'll want the lot, he will then think " nobody stopped me, everyone is scared of me I can do whatever I want." He wants the return of the soviet empire and he doesn't care how many die including Russian people. | |||
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"So the orange cunt has greased his ass and bent over to Putin What would you suggest as way forward to end this war? Will you be ok when Putin takes half of eastern Europe because the orange cunt sucks up to him ? How do you think he is sucking up to Putin? Putin is holding all the cards and simply throwing more soldiers and weapons at the Russian military isn't going to alter the course of the war or the outcomes. It will be 45 months tomorrow that this started No official casualty figures but must be 1M+ Time to end it. Longer than that if you include the invasion in 2014. Putin has been invading and meddling with surrounding countries for decades. Georgia is another country he has a grip on. They bombed them and still steal land without any threat from nato or the rest of the world. If Putin decides to invade the UK I think it wouldn't last 45 minutes let alone 45 months. Cutback by successive governments has left our military woefully inadequate, and I can't see the masses picking up arms to defend the country I can just hear them now as they are queuing up for their Gregg's " omg I iz not gonna fight, u can't tell me wot to do right , besides I heard from a guy on the internet that right the invasion ain't real it's just a conspiracy to control people innit " So fair play to the Ukrainian for putting up such a defence against Russia but this isn't a new thing between the two countries it goes back a long time and the Ukrainian people have suffered many losses. My concerns are that if Putin gets what he wants where next? Coz he sure as hell won't be satisfied with just a bit he'll want the lot, he will then think " nobody stopped me, everyone is scared of me I can do whatever I want." He wants the return of the soviet empire and he doesn't care how many die including Russian people. " If that was his plan, balkanisation becomes a threat that would collapse Russia in the not too distant future, especially after he losses power. I'm not convinced he would want to be remembered as the leader that lay the foundations of Russia's demise. | |||
"So the orange cunt has greased his ass and bent over to Putin What would you suggest as way forward to end this war? Will you be ok when Putin takes half of eastern Europe because the orange cunt sucks up to him ? How do you think he is sucking up to Putin? Putin is holding all the cards and simply throwing more soldiers and weapons at the Russian military isn't going to alter the course of the war or the outcomes. Did he bow to Iran ? Iran is a completely different proposition! Decisions of this magnitude aren't binary.. " Britain didn't back down after getting thrashed at Dunkirk, they stood up for what was right. Perhaps the world shouldn't have sat back and watched Hitler Back then the British people had the balls to declare war when Hitler invaded Poland | |||
"So the orange cunt has greased his ass and bent over to Putin What would you suggest as way forward to end this war? Will you be ok when Putin takes half of eastern Europe because the orange cunt sucks up to him ? How do you think he is sucking up to Putin? Putin is holding all the cards and simply throwing more soldiers and weapons at the Russian military isn't going to alter the course of the war or the outcomes. Did he bow to Iran ? Iran is a completely different proposition! Decisions of this magnitude aren't binary.. Britain didn't back down after getting thrashed at Dunkirk, they stood up for what was right. Perhaps the world shouldn't have sat back and watched Hitler Back then the British people had the balls to declare war when Hitler invaded Poland " His war against the UK and the rest of the world has been going on for some time now, his lack of respect and fear of reprisal is scary, all these cyber attacks are part of the plan. But it wouldn't just be declaring war on Russia tho because China and North Korea are close allies and Iran I think the only reason China haven't gotten more involved is due to the financial impact on their income, since the last world war China's income has become very dependent on exports but who knows what these guys are planning. | |||
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"So the orange cunt has greased his ass and bent over to Putin What would you suggest as way forward to end this war? Will you be ok when Putin takes half of eastern Europe because the orange cunt sucks up to him ? How do you think he is sucking up to Putin? Putin is holding all the cards and simply throwing more soldiers and weapons at the Russian military isn't going to alter the course of the war or the outcomes. Did he bow to Iran ? Iran is a completely different proposition! Decisions of this magnitude aren't binary.. Britain didn't back down after getting thrashed at Dunkirk, they stood up for what was right. Perhaps the world shouldn't have sat back and watched Hitler Back then the British people had the balls to declare war when Hitler invaded Poland " the British people didn't declare anything g as usual our politicians declared war then expected to working class to fight it for them,luckily as the years have moved on more people are of the opinion they ai t fighting wars for rich people anymore | |||
"So the orange cunt has greased his ass and bent over to Putin What would you suggest as way forward to end this war? Will you be ok when Putin takes half of eastern Europe because the orange cunt sucks up to him ? How do you think he is sucking up to Putin? Putin is holding all the cards and simply throwing more soldiers and weapons at the Russian military isn't going to alter the course of the war or the outcomes. It will be 45 months tomorrow that this started No official casualty figures but must be 1M+ Time to end it. Longer than that if you include the invasion in 2014. Putin has been invading and meddling with surrounding countries for decades. Georgia is another country he has a grip on. They bombed them and still steal land without any threat from nato or the rest of the world. If Putin decides to invade the UK I think it wouldn't last 45 minutes let alone 45 months. Cutback by successive governments has left our military woefully inadequate, and I can't see the masses picking up arms to defend the country I can just hear them now as they are queuing up for their Gregg's " omg I iz not gonna fight, u can't tell me wot to do right , besides I heard from a guy on the internet that right the invasion ain't real it's just a conspiracy to control people innit " So fair play to the Ukrainian for putting up such a defence against Russia but this isn't a new thing between the two countries it goes back a long time and the Ukrainian people have suffered many losses. My concerns are that if Putin gets what he wants where next? Coz he sure as hell won't be satisfied with just a bit he'll want the lot, he will then think " nobody stopped me, everyone is scared of me I can do whatever I want." He wants the return of the soviet empire and he doesn't care how many die including Russian people. " politicians can't seem to agree on what he wants yet you somehow know what's going on in his head,you should ring the ministry of defence and offer them your expertise | |||
"So the orange cunt has greased his ass and bent over to Putin What would you suggest as way forward to end this war? Will you be ok when Putin takes half of eastern Europe because the orange cunt sucks up to him ? How do you think he is sucking up to Putin? Putin is holding all the cards and simply throwing more soldiers and weapons at the Russian military isn't going to alter the course of the war or the outcomes. Did he bow to Iran ? Iran is a completely different proposition! Decisions of this magnitude aren't binary.. Britain didn't back down after getting thrashed at Dunkirk, they stood up for what was right. Perhaps the world shouldn't have sat back and watched Hitler Back then the British people had the balls to declare war when Hitler invaded Poland " You are taking the actions ot events in WW2 and applying them to a situation that has no bearing on Ukraine other than it is at war. You are not alone in this, the thread has many comments that sound like a Hollywood war film, but there is nothing else, no idea of what could be done to end the war. Trump is front and centre again, for what? His negotiation team are responsible for putting a plan together that can be used to begin dialogue and negotiation. That all gets kicked down the road as TDS takes hold. | |||
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"Trump is front and centre again, for what? His negotiation team are responsible for putting a plan together that can be used to begin dialogue and negotiation. That all gets kicked down the road as TDS takes hold." It's difficult to take anyone seriously when they mention TDS but exactly what dialogue and negotiation do you think is going to follow? As far as I can tell "the plan" is that Ukraine must surrender to Putin's demands by Thursday. | |||
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"Trump administration has told Nato if Zelenskyy does not the sign peace deal Ukraine will face worse in future. Without USA military support that is a certainty. A very very bad deal for Ukraine is coming but at least the killing stops, for now, if the USA capitulation plan for Ukraine can be agreed " The bits I have seen looks like the deal is heavily biased towards Russia. Stopping the war is important but it could lead to worse in the future. I don't see Putin honouring the deal in the future and will be back for more once he has rebuilt his military. Security guarantees by the west will be forgotten once the Russians resume operations | |||
"I think that we have (nearly) all been brainwashed into supporting this War by our Governments and mainstream media all singing to the same hyme book. Even I myself was one of them, despite thinking myself as "leftwing" and a free thinker. Even so called left wing media like Channel 4 news and the Guardian have been very vocal in their support for this war. They all tell us that its about "defending freedom" and that Putin is the "next Hitler" or the "Next Stalin". When in reality this war is a proxy war between the USA and Russia, fought on Ukrainian soil, with Ukrainians doing all the fighting to weaken Russia, all for the benefit of the USA. (The tiny, yet incredibly wealthy powerful elite, I should say. Who wants to maintain a unipolar world in a multipolar reality). Where their goals are to weaken the Russia China alliance and to detach Russia from European trade. The latter of which they managed, which is why instead of cheap Russian oil & Gas, we get our European energy needs met through Liquid Natural Gas loaded onto big tankers and shipped from the USA at x4 times the cost. The rest comes from Russia but only after its been heavily inflated after passing through India. This is a big reason why our inflation is so high and our industries are crumbling, the costs to power European industry is just too much now. Not to mention the billions we are giving Ukraine for this war. Meanwhile our attemps to wreck the Russian state and its economy has failed. Russias economy is strong, despite war and heavy sanctions. And like it or not, Putin is very popular there. Whereas our leaders are all deeply unpopular, and our economies are stagnating. Not to mention the immense death, destruction and suffering the Ukrainian people going through daily. The West started this avoidable War, with their 2014 CIA backed coup in Ukraine. After which they have been flowing weapons and military intelligence into Ukraine, with the goal of flipping Ukraine into another NATO Nation. As they already did in Eastern Europe, as they did in the balkans. Despite the US agreeing with Russia not to expand NATO eastwards if Russia allowed German Reunification. So you could say this goes back as far as 1991. The mainstream media almost never mentions any of this, why? Imagine if it was the other way around?. Imagine Russia kept expanding their military bases and nuclear missile silos over the years?! Until finally they attempted to do the same on the border of the USA, say in Mexico or Canada?! Do you think the US would sit back and do nothing and just let Russia establish Russian military bases there and Russian nuclear missile silo??! Of course not!!😂 The West does not care about Ukraine or Ukrainians, they are happy for them to die, better dead Ukraine soldiers than dead US or European soldiers!. The West could have stopped this War after the first week of War. Yet they convinced the Ukrainians to walk out of peace talks. 3 years later we have probably around 1 million Ukrainians now dead and a country in ruins. Ukraine of course is not going to get the same peace deal offered to them 3 years ago, why would they when Russia holds all the cards, and after so much Russian blood was also spilled in this war. They are winning the War despite effectively going up against the might of NATO and all its advanced weaponry. People and certain vested interest groups who lobby governments here in the west, certainly benefitted. I imagine that the military industrial complex has made billions from our tax payer money being turned into weapons. And now our GDP is going from 2% to 5% in addition military spending in each NATO Nation. We just can't afford this! Wouldn't the people prefer our money to be spent on things like education, public housing and hospitals? ...No?? ..okay, I guess thats somehow not a popular opinion! See what I mean about collective brainwashing!😂😂🤣"
I hope you got that fact checked before posting or fabs resident war correspondents will be all over you
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"Trump is front and centre again, for what? His negotiation team are responsible for putting a plan together that can be used to begin dialogue and negotiation. That all gets kicked down the road as TDS takes hold. It's difficult to take anyone seriously when they mention TDS but exactly what dialogue and negotiation do you think is going to follow? As far as I can tell "the plan" is that Ukraine must surrender to Putin's demands by Thursday. " The date is a line in the sand, which is needed to try and concentrate the effort. Both sides have been in dialogue with the US team and this proposal will be an attempt to bring both sides back to the table for discussions on concessions, red lines etc. | |||
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"Trump is front and centre again, for what? His negotiation team are responsible for putting a plan together that can be used to begin dialogue and negotiation. That all gets kicked down the road as TDS takes hold. It's difficult to take anyone seriously when they mention TDS but exactly what dialogue and negotiation do you think is going to follow? As far as I can tell "the plan" is that Ukraine must surrender to Putin's demands by Thursday. The date is a line in the sand, which is needed to try and concentrate the effort. Both sides have been in dialogue with the US team and this proposal will be an attempt to bring both sides back to the table for discussions on concessions, red lines etc. " It’s a surrender | |||
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"Trump is front and centre again, for what? His negotiation team are responsible for putting a plan together that can be used to begin dialogue and negotiation. That all gets kicked down the road as TDS takes hold. It's difficult to take anyone seriously when they mention TDS but exactly what dialogue and negotiation do you think is going to follow? As far as I can tell "the plan" is that Ukraine must surrender to Putin's demands by Thursday. The date is a line in the sand, which is needed to try and concentrate the effort. Both sides have been in dialogue with the US team and this proposal will be an attempt to bring both sides back to the table for discussions on concessions, red lines etc. It’s a surrender " This is not a bolt out of the blue it has been a risk for years, Europe could have prevented this very thing from happening in 2008 but left the door wide open. Thanks to that weakness land is lost and with no with ally prepared to support the fight with a physical presence where does this end? | |||
"So the orange cunt has greased his ass and bent over to Putin What would you suggest as way forward to end this war? Will you be ok when Putin takes half of eastern Europe because the orange cunt sucks up to him ? How do you think he is sucking up to Putin? Putin is holding all the cards and simply throwing more soldiers and weapons at the Russian military isn't going to alter the course of the war or the outcomes. Did he bow to Iran ? Iran is a completely different proposition! Decisions of this magnitude aren't binary.. Britain didn't back down after getting thrashed at Dunkirk, they stood up for what was right. Perhaps the world shouldn't have sat back and watched Hitler Back then the British people had the balls to declare war when Hitler invaded Poland You are taking the actions ot events in WW2 and applying them to a situation that has no bearing on Ukraine other than it is at war. You are not alone in this, the thread has many comments that sound like a Hollywood war film, but there is nothing else, no idea of what could be done to end the war. Trump is front and centre again, for what? His negotiation team are responsible for putting a plan together that can be used to begin dialogue and negotiation. That all gets kicked down the road as TDS takes hold. " Aww the old maga insult again ... tds 😂😂😂 | |||
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"So the orange cunt has greased his ass and bent over to Putin What would you suggest as way forward to end this war? Will you be ok when Putin takes half of eastern Europe because the orange cunt sucks up to him ? How do you think he is sucking up to Putin? Putin is holding all the cards and simply throwing more soldiers and weapons at the Russian military isn't going to alter the course of the war or the outcomes. Did he bow to Iran ? Iran is a completely different proposition! Decisions of this magnitude aren't binary.. Britain didn't back down after getting thrashed at Dunkirk, they stood up for what was right. Perhaps the world shouldn't have sat back and watched Hitler Back then the British people had the balls to declare war when Hitler invaded Poland You are taking the actions ot events in WW2 and applying them to a situation that has no bearing on Ukraine other than it is at war. You are not alone in this, the thread has many comments that sound like a Hollywood war film, but there is nothing else, no idea of what could be done to end the war. Trump is front and centre again, for what? His negotiation team are responsible for putting a plan together that can be used to begin dialogue and negotiation. That all gets kicked down the road as TDS takes hold. Aww the old maga insult again ... tds 😂😂😂" What would you call it, or can't you see it? I see you let slide the outbursts and wild conspiracy theories, amazing... | |||
"Looks like the European council have capitulated as well. Their statement reads We welcome the continued US efforts to bring peace to Ukraine. The initial draft of the 28-point plan includes important elements that will be essential for a just and lasting peace. We believe therefore that the draft is a basis which will require additional work. We are ready to engage in order to ensure that a future peace is sustainable. We are clear on the principle that borders must not be changed by force. We are also concerned by the proposed limitations on Ukraine’s armed forces, which would leave Ukraine vulnerable to future attack. We reiterate that the implementation of elements relating to the European Union and relating to Nato would need the consent of EU and Nato members respectively. We take this opportunity to underline the strength of our continued support to Ukraine. We will continue to coordinate closely with Ukraine and the US over the coming days." It's not capitualition, it's diplomatic language. I'll give you my translation... We are glad that the US hasn't yet fully abondoned Ukraine. The plan is full of faults and needs changing. We have suggestions on such changes. We do not accept that Russia can take parts of Ukraine by force. We think limiting Ukrainian armed forces would make it easier for Putin to steal more territory. The US isn't in charge of other NATO countries and certainly not the EU. We aren't going to abandon Ukraine even if you do. We hope we can persuade you to change your mind. | |||
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""I'll give you my translation" I'll give you mine: "Russia keeps the territory it's gained and its plebs will think the struggle was worth it. The US and EU will divvy up "unblocked" frozen Russian squillions to pay for what they've given Ukraine in the past and to pay for future rebuilding"" And of course it will be said with sincerity, after all Ukraine have fought tirelessly using every last $ it has been given in weaponry, loans and grants. The US will no doubt want their loans and grants serviced first and the EU along with the UK and others will wait patiently in line until it is realised Ukraine will never be in a position to fulfil its obligations. I expect those who have been most vocal in supplying arms will then be equally as vocal in demanding that the debt is written off. | |||
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""I'll give you my translation" I'll give you mine: "Russia keeps the territory it's gained and its plebs will think the struggle was worth it. The US and EU will divvy up "unblocked" frozen Russian squillions to pay for what they've given Ukraine in the past and to pay for future rebuilding" And of course it will be said with sincerity, after all Ukraine have fought tirelessly using every last $ it has been given in weaponry, loans and grants. The US will no doubt want their loans and grants serviced first and the EU along with the UK and others will wait patiently in line until it is realised Ukraine will never be in a position to fulfil its obligations. I expect those who have been most vocal in supplying arms will then be equally as vocal in demanding that the debt is written off." It really is the worse of outcomes • 20-25% territory lost • A generation on young men lost. ( fergal keane reported a year ago 350K Ukrainian losses) • Ukrainian government estimate projects a total cost of $1 trillion over 14 years to rebuild • AI has UA External Debt: Roughly $115 billion owed to EU: Just under $50 billion World Bank: Approximately $20 billion IMF: Around $18 billion Private Creditors: Approximately $20 billion Other creditors: Japan ($1 billion) and Canada ($5.2 billion) are also major creditors • USA lend lease $20bn • Internal Debt: About $45 billion Debt • A weakened economy • Ukraine was reported at 45% in poverty before the invasion Even if the figures are totally inaccurate or disputed which is popular here, they will be considerable. | |||
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"UK will probably send more billions." Under our signed Budapest obligations UK will need too | |||
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"My prediction... Zelensky will definitely not commit to Trump's deal by Thursday. He will talk nice, stall to buy time and at most sign some kind of vague memorandum of understanding. Allies of Ukraine will be discussing ways to ramp up support at the G20 meeting. This will be led by Macron but will have widespread multiiateral support. European funding for Ukraine will not just continue but increase. According to some sources European military funding is now actually larger than US funding anyway. It would be politically difficult to sell to some voters in Europe but replacing any money lost by a US reduction would still be feasible when the costs are spread out. There will be major pushback against any plans to reduce US military funding for Ukraine from the arms industry in the US as they are making a healthy profit from what is effectively a public subsidy. Trump will come up with some face saving fudge as he won't want to go down in history as the commie loving president who sucked up to Russia and gave away parts of Eastern Europe to an historical enemy. US standing in the world will be further eroded with many countries rethinking their long-term stategies. " It isn't Trump giving away parts of Eastern Europe / Ukraine. We can thank the French and Germans for that. They prevented both Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO out of fear of Russian retaliation, it didn't take too long for Putin to capitalise when he realised the EU or NATO hadn't got a backbone. 4 months after the French and German NATO veto of Ukraine and Georgia, Putin invaded Georgia and 6 years later Crimea. | |||
"It isn't Trump giving away parts of Eastern Europe / Ukraine. We can thank the French and Germans for that. They prevented both Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO out of fear of Russian retaliation, it didn't take too long for Putin to capitalise when he realised the EU or NATO hadn't got a backbone. 4 months after the French and German NATO veto of Ukraine and Georgia, Putin invaded Georgia and 6 years later Crimea." Trump is the one pressurising Ukraine to give up sovereign territory to Russian aggression despite the US promising to not let this to happen in order to get Ukraine to give up nuclear weapons. Trump has seriously undermined the value of NATO and Article 5 so even if Ukraine was a member it probably wouldn't make any difference. It's likely that the US will change course drastically once Trump is no longer POTUS but if the US were to persist in its pro-Russian stance then I don't see NATO surviving in it current form. As I said earlier Europe should be pro-active here and start dismantling US bases in Europe if Trump abandons Ukraine. We should not allow a hostile country to have military forces and intelligence gathering facilities inside our borders as this would present a serious security risk. | |||
"It isn't Trump giving away parts of Eastern Europe / Ukraine. We can thank the French and Germans for that. They prevented both Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO out of fear of Russian retaliation, it didn't take too long for Putin to capitalise when he realised the EU or NATO hadn't got a backbone. 4 months after the French and German NATO veto of Ukraine and Georgia, Putin invaded Georgia and 6 years later Crimea. Trump is the one pressurising Ukraine to give up sovereign territory to Russian aggression despite the US promising to not let this to happen in order to get Ukraine to give up nuclear weapons. Trump has seriously undermined the value of NATO and Article 5 so even if Ukraine was a member it probably wouldn't make any difference. It's likely that the US will change course drastically once Trump is no longer POTUS but if the US were to persist in its pro-Russian stance then I don't see NATO surviving in it current form. As I said earlier Europe should be pro-active here and start dismantling US bases in Europe if Trump abandons Ukraine. We should not allow a hostile country to have military forces and intelligence gathering facilities inside our borders as this would present a serious security risk. " Your reasoning in not well balanced. | |||
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"That’s exactly what putin wants . Create a division between the US , Europe . Weaken Nato then fill his boots . We have no other option but to fight . We made the mistake with Hitler . The problem we have is putin does not care if his people suffer , he can throw millions to their death and also has back up from North Korea. . We don’t have the stomach for the fight and he knows that . He will play the long game and keep killing his people . Long range missiles and try and turn the Russian people to understanding this is a problem of putins making would help . " We did have an option not to fight We could have armed Ukraine effectively three and a half years ago, evened the odds in their favour. Instead nato pissed about dithering, all those photo shoot handshake meetings pledging support; a year to send a tank, two years to send an aircraft. If I remember correctly USA refused to backfill Poland’s offer to donate a squadron of MIG’s Ukrainian pilots were experienced to fly Various reports of under and late supply of the pledged munitions. Took ages to get all the sanctions in place. On oil, Europe couldn’t do without their central heating while Ukrainians were bombed in their beds. | |||
"In the not too distant past The American people would have labelled Trump as a commie sympathiser and definitely wouldn't have stood up for his Putin bromance, I wonder how many of Trumps supporters are starting to question his motives or have they all been brainwashed to believe everything that comes out of his mouth? " not brainwashed no but they are America first and don't think America should be wasting money on a European country belive it or not a massive chunk of maga do t want to fund Israel either they are interested in America and no one else why we are sending them billions while our own finances are in the shitter is beyond me | |||
"In the not too distant past The American people would have labelled Trump as a commie sympathiser and definitely wouldn't have stood up for his Putin bromance, I wonder how many of Trumps supporters are starting to question his motives or have they all been brainwashed to believe everything that comes out of his mouth? not brainwashed no but they are America first and don't think America should be wasting money on a European country belive it or not a massive chunk of maga do t want to fund Israel either they are interested in America and no one else why we are sending them billions while our own finances are in the shitter is beyond me" Beacuse the uk (and USA) signed the security obligations in 1994 for non proliferation of nuclear weapons in Ukraine. | |||
"We did have an option not to fight We could have armed Ukraine effectively three and a half years ago, evened the odds in their favour. Instead nato pissed about dithering, all those photo shoot handshake meetings pledging support; a year to send a tank, two years to send an aircraft. If I remember correctly USA refused to backfill Poland’s offer to donate a squadron of MIG’s Ukrainian pilots were experienced to fly Various reports of under and late supply of the pledged munitions. Took ages to get all the sanctions in place. On oil, Europe couldn’t do without their central heating while Ukrainians were bombed in their beds." Nobody wanted to go to war with Russia. This explains why the response from the US, Europe and others has not been sufficient to defeat the Russian invasion. But let's not underestimate what Ukraine has achieved. It's limited a former world superpower to taking only 20% of the territory when if you remember in the early days of the second phase of invasion there was talk of Russia taking Kyiv. Ukraine's allies still don't want to go to war with Russia. So it's going to be a long containment war unless, as looked likely a day or two ago, Trump pulls the plug on US aid. Fortunately it looks like Trump has had to change tack but we will have to wait until after the talks in Geneva today to learn more. | |||
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"We are witnessing the end of America as a world's leader . They are no longer trusted and with Putins poodle in charge their downward spiral is accelerating . Their industrial policies and mountainous debt has them retreating further and further into insular politics. " Truth Social on Sunday, Trump avoided blaming Russia for the war. Instead, he said his predecessor, Joe Biden, was responsible and had given “everything” to Kyiv for “free free free”. Trump added: “UKRAINE ‘LEADERSHIP’ HAS EXPRESSED ZERO GRATITUDE FOR OUR EFFORTS, AND EUROPE CONTINUES TO BUY OIL FROM RUSSIA.” | |||
"I don't know a great deal about Jeffrey Sachs but from what little I've heard I would agree with him about many things, especially on the destructive hubris of multiple US administrations. However, so far I've not come across him saying much about sovereignty and the right to self-determination. His analysis of NATO expansion seems to be focused only on the push by US hawks. Yes they did push but as far as I understand the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Albania, Croatia, Montenegro, North Macedonia, Finland and Sweden weren't forced to join NATO by the US. They chose to join." Thank you for your respectful reply Sr. I would again urge you to listen to his speech to get a more accurate perspective on the conflict and on US foreign policy in general. A type of perspective that we just don't really hear at all in our corporate controlled mass media. But I respectfully disagree that the USA had no involvement in flipping these Eastern Block countries to NATO. Expanding NATO further Eastwards towards Russia was/is an unnecessary provocation. It goes against previous promises made by the US to Russia to not expand NATO eastwards. Which was the understanding when Russia agreed to German reunification. Again, we in the West are only looking at things solely from the perspective of the West. Look at things from a Russian perspective. How do you think they felt about NATO not breaking up after the fall of the Soviet Union? That was supposed to be the only reason for its existance in the first place. Yet instead, it expanded ever further Eastwards. Until it got to the point of the CIA being backers of the Maidan coup in 2014. And their (well known) plans to ultimately flip Ukraine into a NATO state. NATO is a hostile US led anti Russian force with Nuclear weapons. And to have it right on Russias border where they could launch nukes for a decapitation nuclear strike from Ukraine to Moscow within 5 minutes. That prospect was the final straw. How would the USA feel if Russia expanded its military from South America until finally they Couped Mexico, and had plans to place their military bases and nuclear missile silos there?. I think we can agree that it would be WWIII were that to happen. It should be well known that the USA (and the CIA) has for many decades meddled in the affairs of so many countries, both "friend" & "foe" alike, through their political systems and in media channels and their finance. It's what's called using their "soft power". And no other country is better than them at it. Also they are ultimately in charge of the IMF and World Bank. They can sanction and wreck any country who doesn't "play ball" with Americas wishes. The USA does not respect the sovereignty or independence of other Nations. I could list so many countries to show that, but this message would be so, so long to do so. The USA is not our friend, it is not our ally. The USA always does what's best for the USA (-as in its small powerful elite, not its own citizens). It doesn't care about Europe, Ukraine or anyone. It wants to offload this unwinnable war THAT IT CAUSED, and dump it onto Europe's lap. Hence why European NATO spending has now rose from 2% to 5% of GDP. On top of the billions of our Tax payer money that we've already pumped into it, and will continue to do so for many years to come. While the USA goes off to start new Wars in Iran, Yemen, Venezuela and most probably soon enough China. Its goal is to break up BRICS and to remain as the sole hegemon in a World that has changed so much since the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991. When the US was the only sole Super Power. That World is over, we now live in a MultiPolar World, whether we like it or not. Thats the reality. I just wish our political class would accept that so that we can live in peace. Europe serves the USA, its not the other way around. Europe/UK does not have its own foreign policy. We usually just follow along with the wishes of the USA. To quote (war criminal) Henry Kissinger- "To be Americas enemy is dangerous, but to be Americas friend is fatal" Im sure Afghanistan and Ukraine are just two such countries who can vouch for that!😬 And when we in Europe no longer serve the interests of the USA, watch them dump us too!😅 | |||
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"IncaGold, I agree with most of your points. I'm perhaps one of the people most critical of the US here. However, I'm also critical of Putin. He isn't an innocent reacting to US provocation. He's an ultranationalist reactionary authoritarian determined to recreate the USSR but under his and his oligarch friends' tight control. He's almost in the same mold as Stalin. So I can't just look at one side and ignore the other. " I am not fan of Putin either, I agree with you that he has autocratic tendencies, not to mention his treatment of gays and other minorities. However, I think he exists almost entirely as a result of longstanding hostile Western Policies toward Russia since the fall of the U.S.S.R. I think the West had a real opportunity of lasting peace with Russia. But all that the West was interested in was kicking Russia when it was down and exploiting Russia for its markets and its resources. The West has no problem with autocratic leaders far worse than Putin, if its in their "interests". Look at that warmongering Genocidal maniac in Israel. Yet, still in Eurovision, still in UEFA, still at the Olympics, still not sanctioned. Where Russia was within less than a week, talk about double standards😂 Trump swooned over the headchopping leader of Syrias Al Queda at the White House last week, who is currently commiting pogroms in Syria. All these horrible Autocratic Regimes in the Middle East proped up or installed by the US and the West. So many US/CIA backed South American, African and Asian dictators who murdered thousands upon thousands of their own people. All these people are far worse than Putin. Yet the US and the West supported them, they even supported PolPot for a time, if you can believe that! Not just him, but also Saddam Hussain and what became Al Queda in the 80's in Afghanistan. Just to name a few. All USA/CIA funded. And they want to talk about "defending freedom", what a big lie!!😂 I think that this war has, if anything, strengthened Putin and weakened his oligarchs, who I would think Putin would be more than happy to be cut loose from. And Putin is now more popular than ever there, the exact opposite of what the West wished for. Almost every country unfortunately has rich oligarchs behind them, Ukraine too. As well as us in the West. Behind power lies vast money held by only a handful of people. The only difference is that we dont call our Western power brokers "Oligarchs" we call them "corporate lobbyists" and "special interest groups" or "think tanks". There are people more powerful than our Prime Ministers and Presidents who actually shape & control our national policies. They call themselves "think tanks" when in reality they are very wealthy elite groups who set government policy. Our "democracy" is really just window dressing. Hence why "left" or "right" culture war issues aside, we have still continuous wars, an ever increasing gap between the few haves and the many have nots, slow action on climate change, ever declining public services and weakened trade unions to name a few. We have a Billionaire class who are allowed to avoid their fair share of paying tax, they even get massive amounts of government subsidies. Yet they have us fighting amongst eachother for the crumbs like rats. Blaming migrants for all our economic problems, through their corporate news platforms and opportunistic politicians constantly telling us thats the reason why. When its the mega rich who are making our society unfair and things like housing out of reach for most. Probably why we have the Worlds richest man (and soon to be trillionaire) bankrolling the Far Right in the UK and elsewhere. Better people's anger be directed at the weakest and poorest in society, than at the richest and most powerful. By all intense and purposes its working too! Half of Europe is set to fall to the far right within the next few years. It's already happened in America, and look at the results, cities look like war zones, the military out on the streets attacking its own people, America is at War with itself! History shows us that whatever happens in America, soon happens here across the ocean too. That's kinda worrying to say the least, at least it should be😄 | |||
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"Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 after Ukraine signed a trade agreement with the EU, that's the origin of the conflict. In 2013 Russia was doing everything possible to scupper this deal and had either bought off Yanukovic or had enough kompromat on him to get him not to sign the deal, there was mass protest culminating in Yanukovic being removed from office by the Ukrainian Parliament. That there is the origin of the conflict, Ukrainians exercising self determination. NATO was not the reason Russia invaded Ukraine and you're right, it should have become irrelevant but Putins Imperial Expansionist ambitions have made it more relevant than ever, with or without the USA, ask anyone from the Baltics if NATO is necessary? Ask the Ss or the Finns why they felt the need to join after all these years?" Just watched Sisu: Road to Revenge. I think that explains perfectly why Finland joined NATO.  | |||
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