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Starmer's own goal this Boxing day
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Starmer made this tweet yesterday about the return of Alaa Abd El-Fattah:
"I’m delighted that Alaa Abd El-Fattah is back in the UK and has been reunited with his loved ones, who must be feeling profound relief.
I want to pay tribute to Alaa’s family, and to all those that have worked and campaigned for this moment.
Alaa's case has been a top priority for my government since we came to office. I’m grateful to President Sisi for his decision to grant the pardon."
Starmer is celebrating this guy's return and said that it was one of the top priorities of the government.
Now for some lovely tweets made by Alaa Abd El-Fattah in the past:
"I'm a violent person who advocated the killing of all Zionists including civilians, so fuck of"
"I consider any killing of colonialists and zionists heroic, we need to kill more of them"
"I'll switch to something else, advocting killing police, hating white people, assassination plot against saad el din ibrahim"
"I confess I want a drone of me own, promise to only use it to shoot zionist weddings"
"Dear international PhD student, by the way, I am racist, I don't like white people so piss off"
"Fuck that, sounds like we need more fear. random shooting of white males should convince them racism costs lives"
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A couple of things:
People in UK have gone to prison for tweeting much less. Will he also be sent to prison?
Starmer's celebration of this guy's release didn't go down well with people. Looks like Labour just wants to send more votes to Reform. |
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By (user no longer on site) 19 weeks ago
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Even by Starmer's disastrous standards this is an extraordinary clusterfuck. Apparently this low life has never visited the UK and got citizenship through his Mother who lived here for a few years and got nationallity in the 50s or 60s but has been in Egypt ever since.
On the other hand with his violent antisemitism and hatred of white people he will fit right into many parts of the UK, and the Labour Party.🤦🤦🤦 |
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"Tbf should be said he got British citizenship under the Tories and Sunak and Cleverley prioritised his case."
That's true. Both the parties are responsible for this. Farage is already taking advantage of this. |
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Keir Starmer said in the parliament
November 9, 2022
"Alaa Abd El-Fattah is a British citizen who's been jailed for the crime of posting on social media."
He's not only a hypocrite he's a fucking danger to this country
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By (user no longer on site) 18 weeks ago
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" Keir Starmer said in the parliament
November 9, 2022
"Alaa Abd El-Fattah is a British citizen who's been jailed for the crime of posting on social media."
He's not only a hypocrite he's a fucking danger to this country
"
Lol, so funny, Starmer loves jailing British people for social media posts, except if they're disgusting Jew haters of course. |
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"Lammy and Cooper have also posted supporting messages of delight. The message this sends out is awful."
I am not sure if this is a failure from their PR teams who forgot to check Alaa's post history or if they knew all this and still decided to welcome this extremist like he is a hero. |
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By (user no longer on site) 18 weeks ago
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"Lammy and Cooper have also posted supporting messages of delight. The message this sends out is awful.
I am not sure if this is a failure from their PR teams who forgot to check Alaa's post history or if they knew all this and still decided to welcome this extremist like he is a hero."
I'm sure politicians and senior Civil Servants wouldn't waste their time doing actual due diligence. No doubt this was assigned to some junior pen pusher who either sympathised with the tweets or cba to look properly. |
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"Lammy and Cooper have also posted supporting messages of delight. The message this sends out is awful.
I am not sure if this is a failure from their PR teams who forgot to check Alaa's post history or if they knew all this and still decided to welcome this extremist like he is a hero.
I'm sure politicians and senior Civil Servants wouldn't waste their time doing actual due diligence. No doubt this was assigned to some junior pen pusher who either sympathised with the tweets or cba to look properly."
Yeah they definitely had a team doing this considering how similar and orchestrated the tweets made by Starmer, Cooper and Lammy looked. |
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Its not some high profile government members, its other parties, the brainwashing media, social media influencers and "celebrities" that have gone quiet, Keep this thread going to give the usual apologist from fab time to think up something to say  |
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By *otMe66Man 18 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"Lammy and Cooper have also posted supporting messages of delight. The message this sends out is awful.
I am not sure if this is a failure from their PR teams who forgot to check Alaa's post history or if they knew all this and still decided to welcome this extremist like he is a hero.
I'm sure politicians and senior Civil Servants wouldn't waste their time doing actual due diligence. No doubt this was assigned to some junior pen pusher who either sympathised with the tweets or cba to look properly.
Yeah they definitely had a team doing this considering how similar and orchestrated the tweets made by Starmer, Cooper and Lammy looked."
From the BBC: "The BBC understands the activist's messages had not been brought to attention of the prime minister until they were highlighted in recent days - and the government considers them to be abhorrent".
And yet the posts from our PM and senior cabinet ministers are still up. |
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By (user no longer on site) 18 weeks ago
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Week before Christmas three foreign born Muslim men were convicted of plotting a huge terrorist attack on Jews in Manchester, potentially hundreds of victims. Starmer didn't tweet about it once and the story disappeared from BBC website after one day,quite a contrast with this story. |
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It seems to me that this guy was only given his British citizenship because he was in an Egyptian jail and had a (albeit tenuous) link to the UK. Virtue signalling of the highest order.
That was on the Tories watch but was well supported by plenty of Labour MP's and Peers. Most of whom are now back tracking as if their life depended on it.
"We didn't know his history" they shout, maybe true maybe not.
Well they bloody well should have known his history before chucking British passports around like confetti.
This isn't just one angry Facebook rant. His is a concerted campaign of hatred against Britain, the Jewish community and white people in general and calling for people to be killed.
He should be on the next plane to Cairo with his Egyptian passport well and truly stamped and his British one cancelled.
As for Starmer I just think it is sheer incompetence and another signal (among many others) that he just isn't up to the job. The man is useless.
He can blame the Foreign office or his advisors as much as he likes but the "Welcome" words came out of his mouth and he owns them.
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We are where we are. Perhaps the best outcome is simply to learn from this debacle, perform rudimentary background checks ("AI" would excel here as a first check before a human review) before granting passports and ensure that the process to reverse errors like this are robust. |
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By *otMe66Man 18 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"We are where we are. Perhaps the best outcome is simply to learn from this debacle, perform rudimentary background checks ("AI" would excel here as a first check before a human review) before granting passports and ensure that the process to reverse errors like this are robust."
That would be a sensible move if the people posting their support were doing so through unvetted excitement or for diplomatic reasons.
However, 3 days after the posts of support and welcoming from Starmer, Cooper and Lammy they are still online. The noise surrounding this surely cannot be unknown to them, or their aides, I'm not sure AI could help counter such stupidity. |
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"Looked into who this guy is and what kind of family he comes from. Old school communist activists. It's no wonder our communist influenced government would pull strings to help some of their own."
Perhaps... But how does that explain the Tory enthusiasm? It seems to be outright negligence. Excitement at righting a legitimate(ish) wrong had blinded them to other factors.
Like someone stopping a time traveler from shooting a baby in 1888, only to find out it was baby Hitler (yes, that analogy is full of holes). |
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"Looked into who this guy is and what kind of family he comes from. Old school communist activists. It's no wonder our communist influenced government would pull strings to help some of their own.
Perhaps... But how does that explain the Tory enthusiasm? It seems to be outright negligence. Excitement at righting a legitimate(ish) wrong had blinded them to other factors.
Like someone stopping a time traveler from shooting a baby in 1888, only to find out it was baby Hitler (yes, that analogy is full of holes)."
The Tory enthusiasm/motivation was to meddle in the internal politics of another country.
This guy was quite prominent during the "Arab Spring" and he was seen as some kind of freedom fighter. He wasn't, by most accounts he was just a gobby twat.
The Tory's saw him as a good cloth to polish their halo's but now the law of unintended consequences has bitten them (and Labour) on the arse.
I fear we are stuck with this prick for a good while yet. And El-Fattah.
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"Given Starmer's stratospheric levels of incompetence you do wonder how he ever rose so high in the legal profession and the decisions he made as DPP.🤔"
Or didn't make.
Especially involving a bleach haired ex DJ that liked cigars. |
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By (user no longer on site) 18 weeks ago
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"Given Starmer's stratospheric levels of incompetence you do wonder how he ever rose so high in the legal profession and the decisions he made as DPP.🤔
Or didn't make.
Especially involving a bleach haired ex DJ that liked cigars."
Indeed....😡 |
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"Given Starmer's stratospheric levels of incompetence you do wonder how he ever rose so high in the legal profession and the decisions he made as DPP.🤔"
Most in the Labour party knew he was pretty useless but after the Corbyn fiasco anyone without a beard who could do a tie knot was a shoo in.
Got to admit he's turned incompetence into a bit of an art form. |
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Perhaps we can have a rare moment of agreement between left and right?
Can we all agree that freedom of speech is not absolute, that there should be legal consequences to hate speech in social media posts and that saying that Hitler was right, saying that some Neo-Nazis are very fine people and giving Nazi salutes during political rallies are all actions that are beyond the pale?
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"Perhaps we can have a rare moment of agreement between left and right?
Can we all agree that freedom of speech is not absolute, that there should be legal consequences to hate speech in social media posts and that saying that Hitler was right, saying that some Neo-Nazis are very fine people and giving Nazi salutes during political rallies are all actions that are beyond the pale?
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Of course we can agree.
Nice deflection BTW.  |
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"Perhaps we can have a rare moment of agreement between left and right?
Can we all agree that freedom of speech is not absolute, that there should be legal consequences to hate speech in social media posts and that saying that Hitler was right, saying that some Neo-Nazis are very fine people and giving Nazi salutes during political rallies are all actions that are beyond the pale?
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Direct calls for violence, yes. Everything else, no. |
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"Of course we can agree.
Nice deflection BTW."
Glad you agree.
I think Starmer is a wanker and I know very little about the guy this story is about, so am not sure what I'm supposed to be deflecting.
I'm just hoping that we can all agree on basic principles rather than apply double standards.
"Direct calls for violence, yes. Everything else, no."
See some on the right don't agree on these basic principles.
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By (user no longer on site) 18 weeks ago
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"Perhaps we can have a rare moment of agreement between left and right?
Can we all agree that freedom of speech is not absolute, that there should be legal consequences to hate speech in social media posts and that saying that Hitler was right, saying that some Neo-Nazis are very fine people and giving Nazi salutes during political rallies are all actions that are beyond the pale?
Of course we can agree.
Nice deflection BTW. "
More swerve than a Brazilian free kick 🤣🤣 |
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"Everything else, no.
See some on the right don't agree on these basic principles.
"
I know some people were outright saying Lucy Connolly shouldn't have been charged at all, which I don't agree with.
Some people were complaining about how long she was sentenced over a tweet, which is debatable.
But the right have a point that UK's legal framework as it exists today is very much towards the authoritarian side on the spectrum of free speech.
This particular case is more than just free speech. Becoming a citizen in this country requires an oath of allegiance and the applicant's acceptance of British values. How did a guy who calls British people dogs and monkeys, openly calls for killing and genocide of white people(the majority ethnicity of the country) pass these requirements to get citizenship? |
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"More swerve than a Brazilian free kick"
I'm arguing that hate speech on social media and giving Nazi salutes during political rallies should have consequences.
You on the other hand are avoiding the question.
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"I know some people were outright saying Lucy Connolly shouldn't have been charged at all, which I don't agree with.
Some people were complaining about how long she was sentenced over a tweet, which is debatable.
But the right have a point that UK's legal framework as it exists today is very much towards the authoritarian side on the spectrum of free speech.
This particular case is more than just free speech. Becoming a citizen in this country requires an oath of allegiance and the applicant's acceptance of British values. How did a guy who calls British people dogs and monkeys, openly calls for killing and genocide of white people(the majority ethnicity of the country) pass these requirements to get citizenship? "
Maybe he shouldn't have been given citizenship and if it's legal to do so maybe he should have it removed.
That's not really what interests me in this thread. I'm curious as to how some on the right interpret language and symbols.
So if you think that saying Hitler was right or giving Nazi salutes at a political rally are not beyond the pale then how do you interpret these actions?
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Maybe he shouldn't have been given citizenship and if it's legal to do so maybe he should have it removed.
That's not really what interests me in this thread.
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That's the biggest blunder committed by politicians in this matter and that's the most important point.
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I'm curious as to how some on the right interpret language and symbols.
So if you think that saying Hitler was right or giving Nazi salutes at a political rally are not beyond the pale then how do you interpret these actions?
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Direct calls for violence makes the person responsible for a potential crime, like a person who plotted a terror attack but didn't participate. A politician doing Nazi salute in a rally is horrible but isn't usually the direct cause of a crime. If anything, it's actually good that these politicians are allowed to be honest about their views so that people can avoid voting for them. |
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"Direct calls for violence makes the person responsible for a potential crime, like a person who plotted a terror attack but didn't participate. A politician doing Nazi salute in a rally is horrible but isn't usually the direct cause of a crime."
OK, let's concede that saying that Hitler was right isn't a direct call to exterminate Jews but isn't it an indirect call to exterminate Jews?
Also what is signified by giving Nazi salutes at a political rally? Surely it's an endorsement of Nazi ideology and a key element of Nazi ideology was exterminating Jews.
"If anything, it's actually good that these politicians are allowed to be honest about their views so that people can avoid voting for them."
Right, so Hitler was actually doing everyone a favour by expressing his hatred of Jews.
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"Direct calls for violence makes the person responsible for a potential crime, like a person who plotted a terror attack but didn't participate. A politician doing Nazi salute in a rally is horrible but isn't usually the direct cause of a crime.
OK, let's concede that saying that Hitler was right isn't a direct call to exterminate Jews but isn't it an indirect call to exterminate Jews?
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You can't prove it in any reasonable way. Hitler said so many things in life and the person could argue that it's the other thing it meant. US never arrested people for saying this, how many pro-Nazi parties have they had? As I said above, it's better for us to know the real views of politicians instead of them hiding these things.
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If anything, it's actually good that these politicians are allowed to be honest about their views so that people can avoid voting for them.
Right, so Hitler was actually doing everyone a favour by expressing his hatred of Jews.
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Do you think arresting Hitler for expressing his anti Semitic views would have stopped the Nazi ideology? The problems in Nazi Germany were much more deep rooted and banning speech was wasn't going to help. Nothing good has ever come out of forcing people to hide their real thoughts.
Sticking to the topic of this thread, the extremist in question had his tweets up until now, which helped us know what kind of person he is. If twitter had banned these tweets or if fear of arrest had stopped him from making these tweets, he still would be the same extremist. The only difference is that we wouldn't have known that fact. Which option do you think, is better here? |
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Abd el-Fattah said he considered “killing any colonialists and specially Zionists heroic, we need to kill more of them”. In 2012 he posted: “I am a racist, I don’t like white people.” He is also accused of saying police did not have rights and “we should kill them all”, and referring to the British as “dogs and monkeys”.
hand this cunt over to the IDF |
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Abd El-Fattah was nominated for the Sakharov Prize in 2014. But the nomination was withdrawn after they saw all his tweets. So it's not like the controversies surrounding him weren't noticed before. This is some major fuck up by the Tories and Labour. |
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"You can't prove it in any reasonable way. Hitler said so many things in life and the person could argue that it's the other thing it meant."
So when someone says that Hitler was right, you imagine it's reasonable to assume that it has nothing to do with antisemitism? That's an interesting view.
" US never arrested people for saying this, how many pro-Nazi parties have they had?"
I could go into great detail about the history of antisemitism in the US but it's beyond the scope of this thread.
"Do you think arresting Hitler for expressing his anti Semitic views would have stopped the Nazi ideology? The problems in Nazi Germany were much more deep rooted and banning speech was wasn't going to help. Nothing good has ever come out of forcing people to hide their real thoughts."
My main interest here is in understanding how people on the right think about language and symbols.
My impression is that you would have no problem with swastika flags being flown on the streets of the UK and people openly expressing admiration for Nazi ideology and indeed would argue in favour of such as it would enable voters to make more informed decisions.
I'm not really arguing for proscription of such things but am curious that some on the right seem to see no problem with the promotion of Nazism.
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"You can't prove it in any reasonable way. Hitler said so many things in life and the person could argue that it's the other thing it meant.
So when someone says that Hitler was right, you imagine it's reasonable to assume that it has nothing to do with antisemitism? That's an interesting view.
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Not enough in a court, in my opinion. If he argues that he didn't have Nazism in mind when he said that, how are you going to find the truth? Dropping some rods in his brains and learning what he really had in mind? This is why the first amendment exception was made clear to show that it must be a direct call for violence. If you start interpreting things, it could also result in governments using it to impose authoritarianism by treating anything remotely related to something bad as something worth arresting people for.
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I could go into great detail about the history of antisemitism in the US but it's beyond the scope of this thread.
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There is anti-semitism everywhere. The anti Semitic presence in the US has nothing to do with their free speech laws. Germany has AfD, which the left wingers like to call the Nazi party. They have much stricter laws about nazi salutes. Did that really work? Nothing good has ever come out of banning speech.
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My main interest here is in understanding how people on the right think about language and symbols.
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And I explained it to you why direct calls of violence is usually considered punishable because of the immediate physical risk to individuals. Political views on the other hand are better left open. If the views are bad, people would know it. If the views are good, government will not have any ways to suppress it. Win-win situation.
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My impression is that you would have no problem with swastika flags being flown on the streets of the UK and people openly expressing admiration for Nazi ideology and indeed would argue in favour of such as it would enable voters to make more informed decisions.
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I would have problem with it. But I wouldn't want them arrested. It's not that hard to get. You can hate something while not wanting people to be arrested for it.
Getting back to the topic, Abd El-Fattah is clearly a racist/anti-Semite extremist with violent views. He openly hates British people. Giving him a platform to speak what he felt, gave us the ability to know what kind of a person he is. Considering our citizenship requirements, he definitely didn't pass the criteria and we should reconsider that decision. |
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"I know some people were outright saying Lucy Connolly shouldn't have been charged at all, which I don't agree with.
Some people were complaining about how long she was sentenced over a tweet, which is debatable.
But the right have a point that UK's legal framework as it exists today is very much towards the authoritarian side on the spectrum of free speech.
This particular case is more than just free speech. Becoming a citizen in this country requires an oath of allegiance and the applicant's acceptance of British values. How did a guy who calls British people dogs and monkeys, openly calls for killing and genocide of white people(the majority ethnicity of the country) pass these requirements to get citizenship?
Maybe he shouldn't have been given citizenship and if it's legal to do so maybe he should have it removed.
That's not really what interests me in this thread. I'm curious as to how some on the right interpret language and symbols.
So if you think that saying Hitler was right or giving Nazi salutes at a political rally are not beyond the pale then how do you interpret these actions?
"
Now we've gone from deflection to thread hijack.
Let's get everyone talking about Musk then they will forget what a prick Starmer is. |
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kier Starmer posted, "I’m delighted that Alaa Abd El-Fattah is back in the UK" 26/12/2025 (and its still up) about a Man who posted
"Humanity will not be redeemed until we commit genocide against all White people" 16/10/2010
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"Not enough in a court, in my opinion. If he argues that he didn't have Nazism in mind when he said that, how are you going to find the truth? Dropping some rods in his brains and learning what he really had in mind?"
My opening question was "Can we all agree that freedom of speech is not absolute, that there should be legal consequences to hate speech in social media posts and that saying that Hitler was right, saying that some Neo-Nazis are very fine people and giving Nazi salutes during political rallies are all actions that are beyond the pale?"
There are four elements to this.
1) Should there be legal consequences to hate speech in social media posts - in this particular instance incitement to violence?
2) Is saying that Hitler was right beyond the pale?
3) Is saying that some Neo-Nazis are very fine people beyond the pale?
4) Is giving Nazi salutes at political rallies beyond the pale?
I think we agree on (1) but you've used a strawman against (2), (3) and (4). Beyond the pale is not a legal standard, it's about what is considered acceptable behaviour. I was aking about people's personal opinions.
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So Labour has decided to stand by the decision to give him citizenship.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/dec/29/no-10-defends-campaign-to-release-abd-el-fattah-despite-his-abhorrent-tweets
This is basically a free hit for Farage. When the centrist parties are so out of touch with people, parties like Reform will obviously gain support. |
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"Not enough in a court, in my opinion. If he argues that he didn't have Nazism in mind when he said that, how are you going to find the truth? Dropping some rods in his brains and learning what he really had in mind?
My opening question was "Can we all agree that freedom of speech is not absolute, that there should be legal consequences to hate speech in social media posts and that saying that Hitler was right, saying that some Neo-Nazis are very fine people and giving Nazi salutes during political rallies are all actions that are beyond the pale?"
There are four elements to this.
1) Should there be legal consequences to hate speech in social media posts - in this particular instance incitement to violence?
2) Is saying that Hitler was right beyond the pale?
3) Is saying that some Neo-Nazis are very fine people beyond the pale?
4) Is giving Nazi salutes at political rallies beyond the pale?
I think we agree on (1) but you've used a strawman against (2), (3) and (4). Beyond the pale is not a legal standard, it's about what is considered acceptable behaviour. I was aking about people's personal opinions.
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I have already answered everything you have asked for. Maybe read that post again and try to understand instead of trying to deflect from the topic. I tried my best to bring this discussion to the topic. But you have been intentionally avoiding the questions I asked about this specific case, which is not surprising. |
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"Now we've gone from deflection to thread hijack.
Let's get everyone talking about Musk then they will forget what a prick Starmer is. "
I'm not deploying a whataboutery fallacy here because I think the guy in question seems to be as dodgy as hell and my opinion of Starmer is extremely low. Starmer and many others seem to have not done sufficient research.
So I can agree with you all about that.
However there is also a distinct whiff of double standards.
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By (user no longer on site) 18 weeks ago
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"So Labour has decided to stand by the decision to give him citizenship.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/dec/29/no-10-defends-campaign-to-release-abd-el-fattah-despite-his-abhorrent-tweets
This is basically a free hit for Farage. When the centrist parties are so out of touch with people, parties like Reform will obviously gain support."
A lot of the media are doing their best to play down this story but it's huge on social media because it plays into every failing of Tories and Labour over immigration:
- prioritising the 'human rights' on non nationals over safety of British nationals.
- complete indifference or even encouragement for extreme anti semitism and support for Islamic terrorism.
- total lack of competence or due diligence on who enters the UK or gains citizenship.
I think many people still don't understand how much the two party will be overturned, possibly for ever, at the next election with the very real possibility that Labour will be wiped out completely as a political force. |
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I think many people still don't understand how much the two party will be overturned, possibly for ever, at the next election with the very real possibility that Labour will be wiped out completely as a political force."
Isn't a Tory wipeout more likely? Labour will always have its supporters, but some/many/most Tories may go to Reform. |
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By (user no longer on site) 18 weeks ago
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I think many people still don't understand how much the two party will be overturned, possibly for ever, at the next election with the very real possibility that Labour will be wiped out completely as a political force.
Isn't a Tory wipeout more likely? Labour will always have its supporters, but some/many/most Tories may go to Reform."
I don't think so. Polls show Tories making slow gains from Reform while Labour continuing to lose votes to left (Greens and Islamist independents) and right (Reform), a dangerous combination. Also Labour are showing unprecedented levels of incompetence on pretty much every issue out there and all the evidence is this will get worse, nor better, in next 3 years. Once Labour polls below 15% then the projections are for single figure MPs. |
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"
I think many people still don't understand how much the two party will be overturned, possibly for ever, at the next election with the very real possibility that Labour will be wiped out completely as a political force.
Isn't a Tory wipeout more likely? Labour will always have its supporters, but some/many/most Tories may go to Reform."
It would be interesting to see how Kemi handles this, considering the hands of Tories in giving him citizenship. She didn't start well. But I saw some recent videos of her in the PMQs and she was terrific in them. I assumed that considering how far the next election is, there was always a chance for a screw up from Reform, at which point, she could be in a position to get back those votes.
But it looks like the Tories and Labour are digging up new holes for themselves while Reform support is remaining solid. |
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"I have already answered everything you have asked for. Maybe read that post again and try to understand instead of trying to deflect from the topic."
Your answer to (2) was that people who say that Hitler was right might not be talking about the extermination of Jews.
I can't find your answer to (3).
Your answer to (4) is that it's a good thing as it allows people to know who stands where but in practice this means supporting the promotion of an ideology that advocates the extermination of Jews.
"I tried my best to bring this discussion to the topic. But you have been intentionally avoiding the questions I asked about this specific case, which is not surprising."
I said earlier that in this specific case citizenship maybe shouldn't have been granted and if it's legal maybe it should be revoked.
I said maybe because it's a legal test not a matter of opinion. |
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By (user no longer on site) 18 weeks ago
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"
I think many people still don't understand how much the two party will be overturned, possibly for ever, at the next election with the very real possibility that Labour will be wiped out completely as a political force.
Isn't a Tory wipeout more likely? Labour will always have its supporters, but some/many/most Tories may go to Reform.
It would be interesting to see how Kemi handles this, considering the hands of Tories in giving him citizenship. She didn't start well. But I saw some recent videos of her in the PMQs and she was terrific in them. I assumed that considering how far the next election is, there was always a chance for a screw up from Reform, at which point, she could be in a position to get back those votes.
But it looks like the Tories and Labour are digging up new holes for themselves while Reform support is remaining solid."
She has improved massively at PMQs, although not sure how much that is worth ? She can also benefit from this case as she wasn't one of the Tory MPs calling for his release. I think if she keeps Tories in the 20-25% bracket at the next election she'll have done a decent job, and probably enough to prevent a Reform majority. |
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By *otMe66Man 18 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"Now we've gone from deflection to thread hijack.
Let's get everyone talking about Musk then they will forget what a prick Starmer is.
I'm not deploying a whataboutery fallacy here because I think the guy in question seems to be as dodgy as hell and my opinion of Starmer is extremely low. Starmer and many others seem to have not done sufficient research.
So I can agree with you all about that.
However there is also a distinct whiff of double standards.
"
Where are there double standards? Has anyone actually said he shouldn’t have said what he said, which is your argument I believe?
The issue is that he should never have been granted UK citizenship in the first place based on his self documented beliefs, and never welcomed or celebrated by the Prime Minister, Lammy and Cooper. He is now backtracking like the figures in the summer riots of 24, quoting it was all taken out of context... People are now rightly questioning both this government and the last, especially after more authoritarian rules have been set by this government after they enforced the harshest of punishments, incarceration for online hate.
The outcome of this huge mistake is the far right are being handed free gifts almost daily, with progressive liberals drooling over him, reciting his prison poems, and our most senior government ministers basically legitimising his views.
We must look like a complete shambles on the world stage. |
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The problem for Reform is that they have very few MPs and even fewer policies.
The problem for the Tories is that thay are trying to move right into terrain already occupied by Reform.
The problem for Labour is that although they are moving right into the terrain vacated by the Tories they are losing support on their left to the Greens.
The next general election will be very interesting.
I predict coalitions or more likely complex confidence and supply agreements on both the left and right with no group having much overall power. |
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"
I think many people still don't understand how much the two party will be overturned, possibly for ever, at the next election with the very real possibility that Labour will be wiped out completely as a political force.
Isn't a Tory wipeout more likely? Labour will always have its supporters, but some/many/most Tories may go to Reform.
It would be interesting to see how Kemi handles this, considering the hands of Tories in giving him citizenship. She didn't start well. But I saw some recent videos of her in the PMQs and she was terrific in them. I assumed that considering how far the next election is, there was always a chance for a screw up from Reform, at which point, she could be in a position to get back those votes.
But it looks like the Tories and Labour are digging up new holes for themselves while Reform support is remaining solid.
She has improved massively at PMQs, although not sure how much that is worth ? She can also benefit from this case as she wasn't one of the Tory MPs calling for his release. I think if she keeps Tories in the 20-25% bracket at the next election she'll have done a decent job, and probably enough to prevent a Reform majority."
Yeah she has been given a tough hand. Her only option is to keep doing her best and hoping to win/keep some support that keeps them relevant after the next election. |
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"Looked into who this guy is and what kind of family he comes from. Old school communist activists. It's no wonder our communist influenced government would pull strings to help some of their own.
Perhaps... But how does that explain the Tory enthusiasm? It seems to be outright negligence. Excitement at righting a legitimate(ish) wrong had blinded them to other factors.
Like someone stopping a time traveler from shooting a baby in 1888, only to find out it was baby Hitler (yes, that analogy is full of holes)."
They all go to the same bars and went to similar schools. Hence the term 'uniparty'. |
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"Where are there double standards? Has anyone actually said he shouldn’t have said what he said, which is your argument I believe?"
The double standard is the promotion by some on the right of near absolute free speech and the criticism of leglislation limiting hate speech and the excuses made for Farage saying Hitler was right, Trump saying there were some very fine Neo-Nazis and Musk giving Nazi salutes.
Then it all seems to turn on its head when someone practically nobody has heard of posts hateful garbage because he's perceived of as being left-wing.
I was hoping that we could all agree that these things are beyond the pale no matter whether they come from the left or the right
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"Where are there double standards? Has anyone actually said he shouldn’t have said what he said, which is your argument I believe?
The double standard is the promotion by some on the right of near absolute free speech and the criticism of leglislation limiting hate speech and the excuses made for Farage saying Hitler was right, Trump saying there were some very fine Neo-Nazis and Musk giving Nazi salutes.
Then it all seems to turn on its head when someone practically nobody has heard of posts hateful garbage because he's perceived of as being left-wing.
I was hoping that we could all agree that these things are beyond the pale no matter whether they come from the left or the right
"
Except some edgy online personalities like Musk, most people don't ask for absolute freedom of speech. You are making this strawman argument right from the beginning. Freedom of speech lies on a spectrum. On one end, there is absolute freedom of spreading and on the other end, there are countries like North Korea.
All countries fall between the two extremes. Right wingers still want legal action to be taken on direct calls for violence. And maybe defamation. These things mostly align with the first amendment. UK laws are much more authoritarian than this and utterly vague that it's up to interpretation.
In this particular case, the guy has made direct calls for violence. But it's not a free speech problem. It's about granting citizenship to someone who clearly hates the country.
So where exactly is the double standards coming from? |
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"So where exactly is the double standards coming from?"
As I've already explained, I view saying that Hitler was right or making Nazi salutes at a political rally as expressions of support for the extermination of Jews. |
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"So where exactly is the double standards coming from?
As I've already explained, I view saying that Hitler was right or making Nazi salutes at a political rally as expressions of support for the extermination of Jews."
That's not a direct call for violence from the POV of people who support freedom of speech. Even though their behaviour is terrible, it is not worth arresting them. But how is people's behaviour in the "Abd El-Fattah" a case of double standard? It's a case of citizenship being given wrongly to someone who hates the country and people. If you want to talk about speech, his tweets were direct calls to violence. |
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"You don't see saying Hitler was right or making Nazi salutes as direct incitement but I do.
There doesn't seem to me more ground to argue over, we are just running around in circles.
"
That's just your opinion on what counts as direct incitement if violence. For people who are pro freedom of speech, it's not and hence there is no double standards from their perspective. It's a double standard only from your perspective. |
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By *otMe66Man 18 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"You don't see saying Hitler was right or making Nazi salutes as direct incitement but I do.
There doesn't seem to me more ground to argue over, we are just running around in circles.
"
The issue here isn’t about free speech, it is about why our previous government chose to provide citizenship to a person with self documented hatred towards the people of this country, and now followed up by the current government publicly celebrating him without doing any due diligence.
Their posts of welcome celebration are still up for all to see, even after the backlash, read into that what you want. |
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"You don't see saying Hitler was right or making Nazi salutes as direct incitement but I do.
There doesn't seem to me more ground to argue over, we are just running around in circles.
The issue here isn’t about free speech, it is about why our previous government chose to provide citizenship to a person with self documented hatred towards the people of this country, and now followed up by the current government publicly celebrating him without doing any due diligence.
Their posts of welcome celebration are still up for all to see, even after the backlash, read into that what you want."
Exactly  |
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"You don't see saying Hitler was right or making Nazi salutes as direct incitement but I do.
"
Which do you think, practically speaking, scares the average Jew on the street more in 2025: "globalise the intifada", or "Hitler was right"? "From the river to the sea", or a Nazi salute?
If you're taking about words with real consequences, do you see them as equal? Would the persecuted minority whom you're defending agree?
There is a difference between "outrageous" and "beyond the pale" and "obscenely tasteless", and "truly threatening and inciting violence" and "causing genuine fear of real-world garden".
Think about it this way... Would the average wife want to great that get husband has a crush on Taylor Swift, or her best friend? One is fantasy, the other causes real issues.
That said:
Donald Trump is a twit who gets too close to fascists.
Elon Musk should stick to tech, because his policies are scary in their unknowability, but possible he leans fascist.
Nigel Farage is a racist bigot, who should be kept from power.
Speculation: none of their ideologies frighten Jews as much as this antisemitic filthbag from Egypt. |
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" Farage saying Hitler was right,
Being accused of making that comment while in school by someone doesn't make it true,
Trump saying there were some very fine Neo-Nazis
Reporter: The neo-Nazis started this. They showed up in Charlottesville to protest —
Trump: Excuse me, excuse me. They didn’t put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides.
Wrong again!
and Musk giving Nazi salutes. Again false, He raised is arm forward it doesn't mean he was making a Nazi Salute.
"
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"Which do you think, practically speaking, scares the average Jew on the street more in 2025: "globalise the intifada", or "Hitler was right"? "From the river to the sea", or a Nazi salute?
If you're taking about words with real consequences, do you see them as equal? Would the persecuted minority whom you're defending agree?
There is a difference between "outrageous" and "beyond the pale" and "obscenely tasteless", and "truly threatening and inciting violence" and "causing genuine fear of real-world garden".
Think about it this way... Would the average wife want to great that get husband has a crush on Taylor Swift, or her best friend? One is fantasy, the other causes real issues.
That said:
Donald Trump is a twit who gets too close to fascists.
Elon Musk should stick to tech, because his policies are scary in their unknowability, but possible he leans fascist.
Nigel Farage is a racist bigot, who should be kept from power.
Speculation: none of their ideologies frighten Jews as much as this antisemitic filthbag from Egypt."
The love of my life, a Jewish American is dead now but she was a left-wing activist in US politics over many decades and she saw people like Trump and Musk as a serious threat.
But if you think this guy who practically nobody has heard of is a bigger threat than a POTUS who you say gets too close to fascists, Musk who you say possibly leans fascist and Farage who you say is a racist bigot then fair enough.
What actual influence do you think he has?
|
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"
The love of my life, a Jewish American is dead now but she was a left-wing activist in US politics over many decades and she saw people like Trump and Musk as a serious threat.
But if you think this guy who practically nobody has heard of is a bigger threat than a POTUS who you say gets too close to fascists, Musk who you say possibly leans fascist and Farage who you say is a racist bigot then fair enough.
"
Your argument is based on what one left wing politician said? When did the number of antisemitic incidents rise in the UK/US? Was it after Farage gained popularity/Trump won election or was it after October 7? This is real data from people about people who have been attacked. And because a left wing politician said something, Trump/Musk are the biggest threats to the Jews?
Do you think Jews will be safer to walk within a Reform march or a Pro-palestine march?
"
What actual influence do you think he has?
"
Potentially the same kind of influence the Bondi Beach attackers had.
You have been spending so much energy creating a boogeyman about Trump/Musk/Farage while completely ignoring the real physical threats faced by the Jews in the country.
Do you seriously think that the Jews are more worried about Farage than scumbags like these who went on a convoy in London shouting "F*** the Jews... F*** all of them. F*** their mothers, f*** their daughters and show your support for Palestine":
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10008697/Four-men-charged-race-hate-offences-shouting-antisemitic-abuse-drove-around.html |
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By (user no longer on site) 18 weeks ago
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"Which do you think, practically speaking, scares the average Jew on the street more in 2025: "globalise the intifada", or "Hitler was right"? "From the river to the sea", or a Nazi salute?
If you're taking about words with real consequences, do you see them as equal? Would the persecuted minority whom you're defending agree?
There is a difference between "outrageous" and "beyond the pale" and "obscenely tasteless", and "truly threatening and inciting violence" and "causing genuine fear of real-world garden".
Think about it this way... Would the average wife want to great that get husband has a crush on Taylor Swift, or her best friend? One is fantasy, the other causes real issues.
That said:
Donald Trump is a twit who gets too close to fascists.
Elon Musk should stick to tech, because his policies are scary in their unknowability, but possible he leans fascist.
Nigel Farage is a racist bigot, who should be kept from power.
Speculation: none of their ideologies frighten Jews as much as this antisemitic filthbag from Egypt.
The love of my life, a Jewish American is dead now but she was a left-wing activist in US politics over many decades and she saw people like Trump and Musk as a serious threat.
But if you think this guy who practically nobody has heard of is a bigger threat than a POTUS who you say gets too close to fascists, Musk who you say possibly leans fascist and Farage who you say is a racist bigot then fair enough.
What actual influence do you think he has?
"
Only last week three foreign born Muslims were convicted of plotting a mass shooting of Jews in Manchester, if successful there could have been 100s of victims. They were explicitly motivated by the anti semitic ideology of 'globalise the intifada', an ideology that El Fattah clearly shares and which also inspired the Bondi Beach massacres. That ideology is by far the greatest threat to Jewish lives and safety in the world today. |
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By *otMe66Man 18 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"Which do you think, practically speaking, scares the average Jew on the street more in 2025: "globalise the intifada", or "Hitler was right"? "From the river to the sea", or a Nazi salute?
If you're taking about words with real consequences, do you see them as equal? Would the persecuted minority whom you're defending agree?
There is a difference between "outrageous" and "beyond the pale" and "obscenely tasteless", and "truly threatening and inciting violence" and "causing genuine fear of real-world garden".
Think about it this way... Would the average wife want to great that get husband has a crush on Taylor Swift, or her best friend? One is fantasy, the other causes real issues.
That said:
Donald Trump is a twit who gets too close to fascists.
Elon Musk should stick to tech, because his policies are scary in their unknowability, but possible he leans fascist.
Nigel Farage is a racist bigot, who should be kept from power.
Speculation: none of their ideologies frighten Jews as much as this antisemitic filthbag from Egypt.
The love of my life, a Jewish American is dead now but she was a left-wing activist in US politics over many decades and she saw people like Trump and Musk as a serious threat.
But if you think this guy who practically nobody has heard of is a bigger threat than a POTUS who you say gets too close to fascists, Musk who you say possibly leans fascist and Farage who you say is a racist bigot then fair enough.
What actual influence do you think he has?
"
Who do you think Jewish communities fear most? Musk or 2 unknowns as they were in Australia? What do you think they would answer? |
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By (user no longer on site) 18 weeks ago
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Every hour brings another horror tweet from this lunatic, while the Egyptians claim they kept UK Govt fully aware of his views. Hard to see how Starmer survives this, and quite possible the comms were orchestrated to fatally damage him. Rayner, Streeting and Burnham sharpening their daggers! |
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"Every hour brings another horror tweet from this lunatic, while the Egyptians claim they kept UK Govt fully aware of his views. Hard to see how Starmer survives this, and quite possible the comms were orchestrated to fatally damage him. Rayner, Streeting and Burnham sharpening their daggers!"
John McDonell seems to think he's a fine example of how anger can be turned into good for everyone, and believes that this guy actually fights against anti-Semitism, on the basis that he fights for humanity; he completely rejects any whiff of anti-Semitism (since he was a young man). He linked the channel 4 interview in his latest X post (right after his post highlighting the Palestine Action hunger-strikers). |
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By (user no longer on site) 18 weeks ago
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"Every hour brings another horror tweet from this lunatic, while the Egyptians claim they kept UK Govt fully aware of his views. Hard to see how Starmer survives this, and quite possible the comms were orchestrated to fatally damage him. Rayner, Streeting and Burnham sharpening their daggers!
John McDonell seems to think he's a fine example of how anger can be turned into good for everyone, and believes that this guy actually fights against anti-Semitism, on the basis that he fights for humanity; he completely rejects any whiff of anti-Semitism (since he was a young man). He linked the channel 4 interview in his latest X post (right after his post highlighting the Palestine Action hunger-strikers)."
El Fattah is actually on Facebook today liking comments which say he's subject of a zionist conspiracy!! |
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"Every hour brings another horror tweet from this lunatic, while the Egyptians claim they kept UK Govt fully aware of his views. Hard to see how Starmer survives this, and quite possible the comms were orchestrated to fatally damage him. Rayner, Streeting and Burnham sharpening their daggers!
John McDonell seems to think he's a fine example of how anger can be turned into good for everyone, and believes that this guy actually fights against anti-Semitism, on the basis that he fights for humanity; he completely rejects any whiff of anti-Semitism (since he was a young man). He linked the channel 4 interview in his latest X post (right after his post highlighting the Palestine Action hunger-strikers).
El Fattah is actually on Facebook today liking comments which say he's subject of a zionist conspiracy!!"
This is becoming a nightmare for Starmer.
El Fattah makes out an apology that's clearly scripted. One would expect him to stay off social media, let alone liking posts like these. Every action of his is going to be scrutinised now and he seems to struggle with controlling his impulses.
On the other hand, the government said they didn't know about his historic tweets while there are posts going around(still unverified) that says Cairo claims the British government was briefed about this.
Starmer and Yvette have made a post apologising to the Jews about this. People have gone mental in replies to the post for not calling out El-Fattah's posts about genocide of white people.
Incompetence all around. Things getting worse and worse for Starmer. |
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"Some people should read what the victimised community in Bondi have to say about which words cause them the most fear."
Albanese’s refusal to heed families’ pleas for Bondi inquiry is hard to understand – and easy for opposition to attack | Anthony Albanese | The Guardian https://share.google/edsR1A3GNKXDT1TCe
Anyone who wants to ignore the sentiments of the Australian/Bondi Jewish community generally, and families of the victims specifically, is in good company. The Australian prime minister has decided against a royal commission, and decided that a narrow-focused look at what security services got wrong is all that's needed. Because looking at anti-Semitism generally would... "provide a new platform for perpetrators of anti-Jewish hate, forcing grieving communities to “relive” the trauma of the past two years".
Um.
So now it's a bad idea to hold a commission into anti-Semitism, because it gives anti-Semites (neo-Nazis like Musk, Trump and Farage, presumably) a platform. |
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"Ffs, El Fattah has just got an OBE in the New Year Honours list ! 😯"
https://www.gov.uk/csv-preview/69492a05888ddc41b48a5465/NY26_Transparency_List__Final__19_12_25.csv
Can't see it on the government website. What's your source? |
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By *otMe66Man 18 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"Some people should read what the victimised community in Bondi have to say about which words cause them the most fear.
Albanese’s refusal to heed families’ pleas for Bondi inquiry is hard to understand – and easy for opposition to attack | Anthony Albanese | The Guardian https://share.google/edsR1A3GNKXDT1TCe
Anyone who wants to ignore the sentiments of the Australian/Bondi Jewish community generally, and families of the victims specifically, is in good company. The Australian prime minister has decided against a royal commission, and decided that a narrow-focused look at what security services got wrong is all that's needed. Because looking at anti-Semitism generally would... "provide a new platform for perpetrators of anti-Jewish hate, forcing grieving communities to “relive” the trauma of the past two years".
Um.
So now it's a bad idea to hold a commission into anti-Semitism, because it gives anti-Semites (neo-Nazis like Musk, Trump and Farage, presumably) a platform."
The fear politicians have when asked to face into the problem of antisemitism and lift the covers is sickening yet perpetual.
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"Lammy and Cooper have also posted supporting messages of delight. The message this sends out is awful.
I am not sure if this is a failure from their PR teams who forgot to check Alaa's post history or if they knew all this and still decided to welcome this extremist like he is a hero."
They didn’t ‘forget’ to check his social media, not in this day and age, I simply don’t buy that…they deliberately ignored what they saw. |
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"Ffs, El Fattah has just got an OBE in the New Year Honours list ! 😯"
Only an OBE?
I'd have thought Starmer would have given him a knighthood or a peerage.
Or maybe coming soon to a safe Labour seat near you.  |
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By (user no longer on site) 18 weeks ago
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"Ffs, El Fattah has just got an OBE in the New Year Honours list ! 😯
Only an OBE?
I'd have thought Starmer would have given him a knighthood or a peerage.
Or maybe coming soon to a safe Labour seat near you. "
🤣🤣🤣 |
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By (user no longer on site) 18 weeks ago
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"Ffs, El Fattah has just got an OBE in the New Year Honours list ! 😯Are you sure, where did you hear about this?
Mrs x"
I heard you got a Damehood too, Mrs N 😉 |
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By (user no longer on site) 18 weeks ago
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"Ffs, El Fattah has just got an OBE in the New Year Honours list ! 😯Are you sure, where did you hear about this?
Mrs x
I heard you got a Damehood too, Mrs N 😉I've always been a lady haha, Mrs x"
Always ! 😘 |
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The whole situation seems a disaster from the very beginning. 2 governments involved, a scum bag who clearly stated publicly that he hates this country and it's people, given citizenship. Current PM welcoming him publicly and his advisors apparently not informing him of the scum bags previous. Coupled with the fact this is very soon after the Bondi beach horror, could it get any worse. |
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By (user no longer on site) 18 weeks ago
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"could it get any worse.
Unfortunately, it's hard to say
Two weeks back, we wouldn't have thought Starmer will do this to himself between Christmas and New Year. And here we are."
Heh, still one day left of 2025 for him to run over Sir David Attenborough outside Downing St.😮🤣 |
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"could it get any worse.
Unfortunately, it's hard to say
Two weeks back, we wouldn't have thought Starmer will do this to himself between Christmas and New Year. And here we are.
Heh, still one day left of 2025 for him to run over Sir David Attenborough outside Downing St.😮🤣"
🤣🤣 |
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By *otMe66Man 18 weeks ago
Terra Firma |
"could it get any worse.
Unfortunately, it's hard to say
Two weeks back, we wouldn't have thought Starmer will do this to himself between Christmas and New Year. And here we are.
Heh, still one day left of 2025 for him to run over Sir David Attenborough outside Downing St.😮🤣"
|
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By *ty31Man 18 weeks ago
NW London |
"Govt closes 2025 on record low of 12% approval. Believe me, there ain't no coming back from this for Labour."
Unless the Centre/Right anti-labour vote splits (ie swing voters currently indicate voting Reform end up voting Tory) leaving Labour as an unpopular majority.
Although, currently it seems Starmer is doing all he can to make the most unpopular decisions possible and giving Farage et al even more ammunition |
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Starmer says he "regrets" making the tweet welcoming him:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cp97g1lykg7t?post=asset%3A6e5e8196-a913-4ec7-980b-2bbdbc7773d2#post
Nothing is going to be done about it I guess |
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"Starmer says he "regrets" making the tweet welcoming him:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cp97g1lykg7t?post=asset%3A6e5e8196-a913-4ec7-980b-2bbdbc7773d2#post
Nothing is going to be done about it I guess "
Regretting is a very strong action! |
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By (user no longer on site) 17 weeks ago
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"Starmer says he "regrets" making the tweet welcoming him:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cp97g1lykg7t?post=asset%3A6e5e8196-a913-4ec7-980b-2bbdbc7773d2#post
Nothing is going to be done about it I guess
Regretting is a very strong action!"
🤣🤣 |
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