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What is the point of the Labour Party?
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I mean, the modern Labour Party.
I’m asking this as someone who considers themselves centre/left/progressive.
They seem to keep the Unions at arms length these days don’t they?
They seem to be trying to ride multiple horses & currently have a modern day identity crisis to me.
I’m thinking all they are managing to do is needlessly split the progressive vote, which was split already with the Lib Dems & now it’s a three way split with the emergence of the Greens.
I’m seriously thinking Labour should consider packing it in, just leaving us with the Lib Dems & Greens.
At the very least, they should be promoting electoral reform, which they don’t, because they like winning landslides on 34% of the vote. |
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I think the problem is that somewhere along the way they lost sight of the fact that they were there to protect the victims of capitalism.
These days they seem to think they exist to be in power, and consequently will do whatever they think will get them/keep power. It’s somewhat ironic that it was Labour giant Nye Bevin who said "The purpose of getting power is to be able to give it away.”
Labour can’t offer a convincing vision to the country because they don’t have one. |
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"I mean, the modern Labour Party.
I’m asking this as someone who considers themselves centre/left/progressive.
They seem to keep the Unions at arms length these days don’t they?
They seem to be trying to ride multiple horses & currently have a modern day identity crisis to me.
I’m thinking all they are managing to do is needlessly split the progressive vote, which was split already with the Lib Dems & now it’s a three way split with the emergence of the Greens.
I’m seriously thinking Labour should consider packing it in, just leaving us with the Lib Dems & Greens.
At the very least, they should be promoting electoral reform, which they don’t, because they like winning landslides on 34% of the vote."
Let's face it, the economy was completely fucked when they got elected.
Some of their plans have been very good but they get blocked by the party ( remember welfare reforms) and it doesn't matter wether it's Starmer or somebody else that'll happen
The media are anti government, the people are conditioned by social media to be anti government (doesn't matter which one .. remember the conservatives ?)
Farage isna lieing cunt that will promise anything to get elected
It's not just labour, it's not just the UK, the world is being brainwashed by social media
|
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As Jeremy Corbyn found out, it was impossible to keep all the groups of left wing voter base happy at the same time - The progressives, The working class and the Religious Muslims.
Even before the election, Starmer decided not to alienate the majority voter base for the sake of a few loud mouth progressives. His manifesto reflected that. Now he is losing these votes to the Greens. But Greens are a bunch of clowns who won't survive long under media scrutiny that other parties receive. You can see that already.
As for the working class, this is where he struggled. He actually gave in to the union demands where possible recently. Lots of public sector workers received good pay rises. The state of the treasury now probably showed him already that he can't keep giving these pay rises.
That's were he is stuck. Going back to the progressive votes doesn't make any sense. And he is struggling to win the union and working class votes. |
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By *otMe66Man 3 weeks ago
Here and there |
"As Jeremy Corbyn found out, it was impossible to keep all the groups of left wing voter base happy at the same time - The progressives, The working class and the Religious Muslims.
Even before the election, Starmer decided not to alienate the majority voter base for the sake of a few loud mouth progressives. His manifesto reflected that. Now he is losing these votes to the Greens. But Greens are a bunch of clowns who won't survive long under media scrutiny that other parties receive. You can see that already.
As for the working class, this is where he struggled. He actually gave in to the union demands where possible recently. Lots of public sector workers received good pay rises. The state of the treasury now probably showed him already that he can't keep giving these pay rises.
That's were he is stuck. Going back to the progressive votes doesn't make any sense. And he is struggling to win the union and working class votes."
Agreed, and the sub party populists within the labour party are ripping it apart, with little resistance from the leadership. |
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Labour have no progress on their manifesto
Rising sovereign debt costs
Rising unemployment
Rising poverty, homelessness and food banks
More small boats
More businesses closing than opening
New social housing negative
New homes less than half what Labour promised
Rising taxes and frozen thresholds
Bankrupt councils
Shrinking military
Farm closures
Full of promises and not much else |
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"Labour have no progress on their manifesto
Rising sovereign debt costs
Rising unemployment
Rising poverty, homelessness and food banks
More small boats
More businesses closing than opening
New social housing negative
New homes less than half what Labour promised
Rising taxes and frozen thresholds
Bankrupt councils
Shrinking military
Farm closures
Full of promises and not much else"
A lot of businesses need to close.
‘Zombie Companies’ have benefited from cheap interest rates over the years and are sucking up other resources from healthier companies.
They are one the reasons that Productivity is struggling in this country. |
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"Labour have no progress on their manifesto
Rising sovereign debt costs
Rising unemployment
Rising poverty, homelessness and food banks
More small boats
More businesses closing than opening
New social housing negative
New homes less than half what Labour promised
Rising taxes and frozen thresholds
Bankrupt councils
Shrinking military
Farm closures
Full of promises and not much else
A lot of businesses need to close.
‘Zombie Companies’ have benefited from cheap interest rates over the years and are sucking up other resources from healthier companies.
They are one the reasons that Productivity is struggling in this country."
A third of the cost of everything is finance costs
(Prof D Dorling, inequality and the 1%) |
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The Labour Party has for a very long term been an amalgamation of loosely allied groups that hate each other. They spend more time bad mouthing other heretical groups than trying to achieve some form of united result. It is seen in the Cabinet but gets far worse the further you go down into the s. |
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"I think the problem is that somewhere along the way they lost sight of the fact that they were there to protect the victims of capitalism."
I think this is the problem. The Labour Party has been very successful at making changes to get unions recognised, bring forward a welfare state, and improve workers rights. It's just that they achieved all of that back in the 1970s, and now they're carrying around for other forms of perceived injustice to right, just to remain relevant. If they stood back and looked at their roots, they'd realise that it's time to disband and bask in the glow of a job well done (a few decades ago). |
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Looks like Starmer has not quite steadied the ship as much as anticipated with now 60 MPs openly saying he needs to go and some junior resignations as well. If the numbers slow down and stop he will probably stick it out |
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"Looks like Starmer has not quite steadied the ship as much as anticipated with now 60 MPs openly saying he needs to go and some junior resignations as well. If the numbers slow down and stop he will probably stick it out"
If this doesn’t get him out I don’t know what else can
He’s survived Reeves CV, the policy U turns, Rayners problems, Mandelson, all in 22 months capped off with 1400 lost council seats. Quite a failure. |
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"Looks like Starmer has not quite steadied the ship as much as anticipated with now 60 MPs openly saying he needs to go and some junior resignations as well. If the numbers slow down and stop he will probably stick it out
If this doesn’t get him out I don’t know what else can
He’s survived Reeves CV, the policy U turns, Rayners problems, Mandelson, all in 22 months capped off with 1400 lost council seats. Quite a failure. "
Who do you think will replace him? |
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By (user no longer on site) 3 weeks ago
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"Labour's biggest problem is the unattractive name.
If only they hadn't let some total wastes of space grab it already, they would succeed with the name 'Democrats'.
Who doesn't support democracy?"
The concept of “Labour” is certainly anathema to many of the Labour Party’s myriad unproductive voters. |
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75 and counting - 2TK is toast -
Only problem is the party in charge have no mandate as they are as split as ..... fill in blanks [ ]
Yet they have a huge majority after 14 wasted years .
Absolute mess .
The "majority" is split -
Absolute joke and no reform is not the solution - just more of the same mess . |
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"Labour's biggest problem is the unattractive name.
If only they hadn't let some total wastes of space grab it already, they would succeed with the name 'Democrats'.
Who doesn't support democracy?
The concept of “Labour” is certainly anathema to many of the Labour Party’s myriad unproductive voters."
At least they aren't voting elsewhere! |
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"75 and counting - 2TK is toast -
Only problem is the party in charge have no mandate as they are as split as ..... fill in blanks [ ]
Yet they have a huge majority after 14 wasted years .
Absolute mess .
The "majority" is split -
Absolute joke and no reform is not the solution - just more of the same mess . "
76 now apparently. 40 this morning
Tomorrow will be make or break |
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"Labour's biggest problem is the unattractive name.
If only they hadn't let some total wastes of space grab it already, they would succeed with the name 'Democrats'.
Who doesn't support democracy?"
Guys like Peter Thiel. |
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"Labour have no progress on their manifesto
Rising sovereign debt costs
Rising unemployment
Rising poverty, homelessness and food banks
More small boats
More businesses closing than opening
New social housing negative
New homes less than half what Labour promised
Rising taxes and frozen thresholds
Bankrupt councils
Shrinking military
Farm closures
Full of promises and not much else"
What a load of nonsense you come out with |
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"Labour's biggest problem is the unattractive name.
If only they hadn't let some total wastes of space grab it already, they would succeed with the name 'Democrats'.
Who doesn't support democracy?
The concept of “Labour” is certainly anathema to many of the Labour Party’s myriad unproductive voters."
Another one who talks crap |
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The uncomfortable truth is that Labour faces exactly the same problems that every other Government has faced since 2008. If Reform get elected it will also face the same problems and the shine will wear off with voters just as quickly. No amount of tatty nylon Union Jacks zip tied to street lamps is going to solve those problems. People have an appetite for radical change, which is why Polanski and Farage are now so appealing. But when anyone claims that there is a simple answer to a hugely complicated problem, you can bet your bottom dollar that they are full of shit.
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"Labour have no progress on their manifesto
Rising sovereign debt costs
Rising unemployment
Rising poverty, homelessness and food banks
More small boats
More businesses closing than opening
New social housing negative
New homes less than half what Labour promised
Rising taxes and frozen thresholds
Bankrupt councils
Shrinking military
Farm closures
Full of promises and not much else"
"What a load of nonsense you come out with "
Which of those short sentences do you think is nonsense? |
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By (user no longer on site) 3 weeks ago
|
"Labour's biggest problem is the unattractive name.
If only they hadn't let some total wastes of space grab it already, they would succeed with the name 'Democrats'.
Who doesn't support democracy?
The concept of “Labour” is certainly anathema to many of the Labour Party’s myriad unproductive voters.
Another one who talks crap "
The final Starmer bitter ender speaks…. |
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"Labour have no progress on their manifesto
Rising sovereign debt costs
Rising unemployment
Rising poverty, homelessness and food banks
More small boats
More businesses closing than opening
New social housing negative
New homes less than half what Labour promised
Rising taxes and frozen thresholds
Bankrupt councils
Shrinking military
Farm closures
Full of promises and not much else
What a load of nonsense you come out with
Which of those short sentences do you think is nonsense?"
They look pretty accurate to me. |
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The Labour died a death in the 70's, this New Labour thing or suddo Toryism didn't really work for me either.
The working class hero crap is ok to a point but always ends in tears and disillusionment.
As for Socialist worker, what is that all about apart from getting on MI5 blacklist as a commie.
Centre Labour or champagne socialists are full of empty promises and wishful thinking.
I could say all the above about Tories.
These days it's a choice between Nationalism or Liberalism.
Personally I'm a royalist and tend not to side with any political party.
|
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"Labour have no progress on their manifesto
Rising sovereign debt costs
Rising unemployment
Rising poverty, homelessness and food banks
More small boats
More businesses closing than opening
New social housing negative
New homes less than half what Labour promised
Rising taxes and frozen thresholds
Bankrupt councils
Shrinking military
Farm closures
Full of promises and not much else"
Can you name any western country that isn't suffering all of these? If not, then maybe rolling them all up into a doom list and blaming Labour is probably a little unfair |
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"Labour's biggest problem is the unattractive name.
If only they hadn't let some total wastes of space grab it already, they would succeed with the name 'Democrats'.
Who doesn't support democracy?
The concept of “Labour” is certainly anathema to many of the Labour Party’s myriad unproductive voters.
Another one who talks crap "
Thanks for your thought-provoking contributions to this debate. Highly appreciate it  |
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I don't really care for this labour government, they're poor communicators and aren't particularly likeable. To get into power they basically just aimed at not being Tory and were more than happy to jettison left voters to show how sensible and politically central they were.
However, they have done some good in a short space of time
- Nationalisation of the trains and steel
- Employment Rights Bill
- Breakfast clubs
- Boats down 34%
- Abolishing non-doms?
- Creating a clean power alliance
- The increases in renewables
- NHS waitlists going down |
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"I don't really care for this labour government, they're poor communicators and aren't particularly likeable. To get into power they basically just aimed at not being Tory and were more than happy to jettison left voters to show how sensible and politically central they were.
However, they have done some good in a short space of time
- Nationalisation of the trains and steel
- Employment Rights Bill
- Breakfast clubs
- Boats down 34%
- Abolishing non-doms?
- Creating a clean power alliance
- The increases in renewables
- NHS waitlists going down"
Also looked to address the Winter Fuel payments and Farmers IHT.
They just went about it the wrong way. They should’ve brought it up during the GE campaign. |
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"I don't really care for this labour government, they're poor communicators and aren't particularly likeable. To get into power they basically just aimed at not being Tory and were more than happy to jettison left voters to show how sensible and politically central they were.
However, they have done some good in a short space of time
- Nationalisation of the trains and steel
- Employment Rights Bill
- Breakfast clubs
- Boats down 34%
- Abolishing non-doms?
- Creating a clean power alliance
- The increases in renewables
- NHS waitlists going down"
But there is still no Grand Plan that I can see. |
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"I don't really care for this labour government, they're poor communicators and aren't particularly likeable. To get into power they basically just aimed at not being Tory and were more than happy to jettison left voters to show how sensible and politically central they were.
However, they have done some good in a short space of time
- Nationalisation of the trains and steel
- Employment Rights Bill
- Breakfast clubs
- Boats down 34%
- Abolishing non-doms?
- Creating a clean power alliance
- The increases in renewables
- NHS waitlists going down"
I can’t speak to the other examples but the waiting lists coming down are mostly down to administrative measures, validating the waiting lists, rather than an increase in treatments. Labour’s latest top down reorganisation of the NHS is going to cause major issues over the next 12 months, and require extensive use of the big 4 management consultants. That will not be cheap. |
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"I mean, the modern Labour Party.
I’m asking this as someone who considers themselves centre/left/progressive.
They seem to keep the Unions at arms length these days don’t they?
They seem to be trying to ride multiple horses & currently have a modern day identity crisis to me.
I’m thinking all they are managing to do is needlessly split the progressive vote, which was split already with the Lib Dems & now it’s a three way split with the emergence of the Greens.
I’m seriously thinking Labour should consider packing it in, just leaving us with the Lib Dems & Greens.
At the very least, they should be promoting electoral reform, which they don’t, because they like winning landslides on 34% of the vote."
They put a dictator in charge. |
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"I don't really care for this labour government, they're poor communicators and aren't particularly likeable. To get into power they basically just aimed at not being Tory and were more than happy to jettison left voters to show how sensible and politically central they were.
However, they have done some good in a short space of time
- Nationalisation of the trains and steel
- Employment Rights Bill
- Breakfast clubs
- Boats down 34%
- Abolishing non-doms?
- Creating a clean power alliance
- The increases in renewables
- NHS waitlists going down
But there is still no Grand Plan that I can see."
And that's fine, my point is that they're not this absolute walking disaster that is being portrayed and they're not doing enough to counter it. That's one of their many issues.
Grand plans from previous government include the northern powerhouse, levelling up, Brexit and they amount to nothing other than slogans. |
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"I don't really care for this labour government, they're poor communicators and aren't particularly likeable. To get into power they basically just aimed at not being Tory and were more than happy to jettison left voters to show how sensible and politically central they were.
However, they have done some good in a short space of time
- Nationalisation of the trains and steel
- Employment Rights Bill
- Breakfast clubs
- Boats down 34%
- Abolishing non-doms?
- Creating a clean power alliance
- The increases in renewables
- NHS waitlists going down"
Nationalisation of the trains and steel?
I wouldn't get too carried away with those. As anyone who remembers British Rail will tell you. It was so crap the best slogan they could come up with was "we're getting there"  Oh and last time British Steel was in public ownership it cost taxpayers a million a day in subsidy. At that was 1970's money.
Employment Rights Bill? All fine and dandy as a soundbite, up the workers and all that. Problem is that the more rights you give workers the less workers there are. Once you get past the tipping point businesses will invest elsewhere. And we are close to that point now. You forgot to mention (but I will) the minimum wage increase and the increase in NI contributions which will both put more strain on job creation. Economy of growth? My arse.
Breakfast clubs? Labour have been banging on about this pretty much non stop. As if a few boxes of Weetabix are going solve the nations ills.
Boats down 34%? Maybe but down from record highs and the weather has been very kind to Starmer so far this year. Let's see where it is after a warm calm summer.
Abolishing non-doms? Oh right. Hammer the billionaires that seems a good idea, proper class warfare in action. But hold on. Those non doms may have paid less tax but at least they were paying something. Now they've all fooked off and pay nowt. Great way for a skint country to raise revenue. NOT!
Creating a clean power alliance? Define "clean power". Or do you mean windmills that create more CO2 in their production than they ever save in their working life and are uneconomical without huge taxpayer subsidy. And that is before the yet to be costed de-commissioning is factored in.
Ditto solar panels but by even more and they have to be shipped halfway around the world from their factory's in coal burning China.
Also, as Spain disastrously found out last year, wind and solar are about as reliable as the proverbial two bob watch.
Meanwhile we are importing oil and gas as backup from Norway who are drilling the same fields that the deranged moron Milliband refuses to open up on our side. Fucking madness.
The increases in renewables? As above but I would add that shipping wood pellets across the Atlantic in diesel powered ships then burning them in a huge power station isn't quite as green as you may think. But yes, they are classed as "renewable".  Well in virtue signaling circles anyway.
NHS waitlists going down? Pull the other one. A few very selective stats show a slight reduction in some areas. The wait for GP appointments is still at a record high.
So the reality is that Labour after 14 years to think about it and almost 2 years to implement something useful have failed miserably.
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"I mean, the modern Labour Party.
I’m asking this as someone who considers themselves centre/left/progressive.
They seem to keep the Unions at arms length these days don’t they?
They seem to be trying to ride multiple horses & currently have a modern day identity crisis to me.
I’m thinking all they are managing to do is needlessly split the progressive vote, which was split already with the Lib Dems & now it’s a three way split with the emergence of the Greens.
I’m seriously thinking Labour should consider packing it in, just leaving us with the Lib Dems & Greens.
At the very least, they should be promoting electoral reform, which they don’t, because they like winning landslides on 34% of the vote.
Let's face it, the economy was completely fucked when they got elected.
Some of their plans have been very good but they get blocked by the party ( remember welfare reforms) and it doesn't matter wether it's Starmer or somebody else that'll happen
The media are anti government, the people are conditioned by social media to be anti government (doesn't matter which one .. remember the conservatives ?)
Farage isna lieing cunt that will promise anything to get elected
It's not just labour, it's not just the UK, the world is being brainwashed by social media
"
Which plan was actually good and would have improved things for the vast majority |
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They’re are the party of choice for the middle class public sector worker, mainly because they’ll put up with their striking and their diva demands about pensions and the ‘right’ to work from home.
Labour still need the common man to vote for them unfortunately though so they stay in office.
Enter stage left Andy Burnham. |
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"I mean, the modern Labour Party.
I’m asking this as someone who considers themselves centre/left/progressive.
They seem to keep the Unions at arms length these days don’t they?
They seem to be trying to ride multiple horses & currently have a modern day identity crisis to me.
I’m thinking all they are managing to do is needlessly split the progressive vote, which was split already with the Lib Dems & now it’s a three way split with the emergence of the Greens.
I’m seriously thinking Labour should consider packing it in, just leaving us with the Lib Dems & Greens.
At the very least, they should be promoting electoral reform, which they don’t, because they like winning landslides on 34% of the vote.
Let's face it, the economy was completely fucked when they got elected.
Some of their plans have been very good but they get blocked by the party ( remember welfare reforms) and it doesn't matter wether it's Starmer or somebody else that'll happen
The media are anti government, the people are conditioned by social media to be anti government (doesn't matter which one .. remember the conservatives ?)
Farage isna lieing cunt that will promise anything to get elected
It's not just labour, it's not just the UK, the world is being brainwashed by social media
Which plan was actually good and would have improved things for the vast majority "
The UK has the highest growth figures in the G7 |
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By *deepdiveMan 3 weeks ago
Canterbury and France (26) |
"The UK has the highest growth figures in the G7"
...well done Labour as nobody else is in power so it can only be down to the incumbent government...
or perhaps I am reading this wrong ... |
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"I mean, the modern Labour Party.
I’m asking this as someone who considers themselves centre/left/progressive.
They seem to keep the Unions at arms length these days don’t they?
They seem to be trying to ride multiple horses & currently have a modern day identity crisis to me.
I’m thinking all they are managing to do is needlessly split the progressive vote, which was split already with the Lib Dems & now it’s a three way split with the emergence of the Greens.
I’m seriously thinking Labour should consider packing it in, just leaving us with the Lib Dems & Greens.
At the very least, they should be promoting electoral reform, which they don’t, because they like winning landslides on 34% of the vote."
It’s champagne and cash.. funded by a global agenda |
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By *deepdiveMan 3 weeks ago
Canterbury and France (26) |
"I mean, the modern Labour Party.
I’m asking this as someone who considers themselves centre/left/progressive.
They seem to keep the Unions at arms length these days don’t they?
They seem to be trying to ride multiple horses & currently have a modern day identity crisis to me.
I’m thinking all they are managing to do is needlessly split the progressive vote, which was split already with the Lib Dems & now it’s a three way split with the emergence of the Greens.
I’m seriously thinking Labour should consider packing it in, just leaving us with the Lib Dems & Greens.
At the very least, they should be promoting electoral reform, which they don’t, because they like winning landslides on 34% of the vote.
It’s champagne and cash.. funded by a global agenda"
Yet..The UK has the highest growth figures in the G7
Or perhaps it is easier to ignore something that doesn't fit into the agenda |
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By (user no longer on site) 3 weeks ago
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"I mean, the modern Labour Party.
I’m asking this as someone who considers themselves centre/left/progressive.
They seem to keep the Unions at arms length these days don’t they?
They seem to be trying to ride multiple horses & currently have a modern day identity crisis to me.
I’m thinking all they are managing to do is needlessly split the progressive vote, which was split already with the Lib Dems & now it’s a three way split with the emergence of the Greens.
I’m seriously thinking Labour should consider packing it in, just leaving us with the Lib Dems & Greens.
At the very least, they should be promoting electoral reform, which they don’t, because they like winning landslides on 34% of the vote.
It’s champagne and cash.. funded by a global agenda
Yet..The UK has the highest growth figures in the G7
Or perhaps it is easier to ignore something that doesn't fit into the agenda "
Lol it has the highest quarterly growth figure for the first quarter of the year compared to countries that haven’t finalised their stats yet.
United Kingdom: +0.6%
United States: +0.5%
Canada: +0.4%
Germany: +0.3%
Italy: +0.2%
France: 0.0%
Japan: Not yet fully reported; estimates around +0.4%.
Romping ahead!
Still I guess this is just one of the many benefits of Brexit!
Though I suppose if we were still in the EU UK growth would have been 1000%!
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By *otMe66Man 3 weeks ago
Here and there |
"I mean, the modern Labour Party.
I’m asking this as someone who considers themselves centre/left/progressive.
They seem to keep the Unions at arms length these days don’t they?
They seem to be trying to ride multiple horses & currently have a modern day identity crisis to me.
I’m thinking all they are managing to do is needlessly split the progressive vote, which was split already with the Lib Dems & now it’s a three way split with the emergence of the Greens.
I’m seriously thinking Labour should consider packing it in, just leaving us with the Lib Dems & Greens.
At the very least, they should be promoting electoral reform, which they don’t, because they like winning landslides on 34% of the vote.
It’s champagne and cash.. funded by a global agenda
Yet..The UK has the highest growth figures in the G7
Or perhaps it is easier to ignore something that doesn't fit into the agenda "
Month on month is a pretty poor economic figure to be measuring, one strong month does not mean overall positive growth.
The second issue is year on year, the economy was so weak 12 months ago any growth is going to look more positive.
Best indicator is how do you feel in the pocket today. |
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By *deepdiveMan 3 weeks ago
Canterbury and France (26) |
"I mean, the modern Labour Party.
I’m asking this as someone who considers themselves centre/left/progressive.
They seem to keep the Unions at arms length these days don’t they?
They seem to be trying to ride multiple horses & currently have a modern day identity crisis to me.
I’m thinking all they are managing to do is needlessly split the progressive vote, which was split already with the Lib Dems & now it’s a three way split with the emergence of the Greens.
I’m seriously thinking Labour should consider packing it in, just leaving us with the Lib Dems & Greens.
At the very least, they should be promoting electoral reform, which they don’t, because they like winning landslides on 34% of the vote.
It’s champagne and cash.. funded by a global agenda
Yet..The UK has the highest growth figures in the G7
Or perhaps it is easier to ignore something that doesn't fit into the agenda
Month on month is a pretty poor economic figure to be measuring, one strong month does not mean overall positive growth.
The second issue is year on year, the economy was so weak 12 months ago any growth is going to look more positive.
Best indicator is how do you feel in the pocket today."
"Lies, damned lies, and statistics"
It really depends how you want to portray your point of view.
If you don't like the result, make an excuse so that the result isn't important.
If you like it, do the opposite.
We see this here on these very forums all the time and people quite happily flaunt statistics which suit their argument and criticise others which don't.
All part of life and who knows who is right or wrong!
..all good fun as we can't change anything so worth it for the banter alone!
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He can take the odious Hermer with him
