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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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butcher billy cumberland shuffled off this mortal coil in this day a while ago , a fat scion of the house of hannover,noted for losing every battle he was involved with bar one , unfortunatly for Scotland it was against us. After the home internattional contested just outside Inverness butcher billy took to rather novel methods to demonstrate the benifits of being ruled by the house of hannover and westminster.
May he toast foe ever and may Scotland never have to suffer the depredations of the likes of him again.
a word of caution - his remains are in the ground in westminster abby and the powers that be seem to take a bit of a dimm view of anyone dancing a jig on him 
longshanks is also in the same building for those of a dancing persuasion |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"butcher billy cumberland shuffled off this mortal coil in this day a while ago , a fat scion of the house of hannover,noted for losing every battle he was involved with bar one , unfortunatly for Scotland it was against us. After the home internattional contested just outside Inverness butcher billy took to rather novel methods to demonstrate the benifits of being ruled by the house of hannover and westminster.
May he toast foe ever and may Scotland never have to suffer the depredations of the likes of him again.
a word of caution - his remains are in the ground in westminster abby and the powers that be seem to take a bit of a dimm view of anyone dancing a jig on him
longshanks is also in the same building for those of a dancing persuasion "
Glad you don't dwell on the past then :oz
Your great great great great great.. Err.. Great great great great grand dad killed mine with a sword.. Ya bastard! .. Grr.. I?o fucking seething . |
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Question:
What happens when a bunch of clansmen strip off to the waste and charge down a hill onto marshy ground through a river and into the battle lines of English soldiers with muskets and using bayonets for the first time in history?
Answer:
It's called the Battle of Culloden, and spelled the end of the Jacobite Rebellion. The slaughter of all wounded and the first Highland clearance after the battle was unforgivable.
I believe there is even a verse in the National Anthem (not very PC so not sung these days) to commemorate it.
It really is a sad reflection on our standards of education that very few south of the border know who Cumberland is or what he did. |
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Holocaust in the Highlands.... ethnic cleansing on a grand scale.... the clearances.... the end of the clans as a society.... the common ownership of land in the Highlands for the common good and under the stewardship of the chief, replaced by the confiscation/theft of clan land subsequently awarded to the king's favourites.... what's not to like if you are a fat murderous Hannoverian usurper (if you believe in succession by blood line, as monarchists do!) intent on reinforcing your rule by bloody excess and savagery. |
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"Holocaust in the Highlands.... ethnic cleansing on a grand scale.... the clearances.... the end of the clans as a society.... the common ownership of land in the Highlands for the common good and under the stewardship of the chief, replaced by the confiscation/theft of clan land subsequently awarded to the king's favourites.... what's not to like if you are a fat murderous Hannoverian usurper (if you believe in succession by blood line, as monarchists do!) intent on reinforcing your rule by bloody excess and savagery. "
You failed to mention the forced deportation of the clans to N Ireland and their use to subjugate and disposes the Catholics. A gift from the English to Ireland that is still giving today. |
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" You failed to mention the forced deportation of the clans to N Ireland and their use to subjugate and disposes the Catholics. A gift from the English to Ireland that is still giving today."
Mmmm...I'd rather not delve into the mire of Ulster politics and the role of the plantation Scots.... the orangemen who insist on marching through the areas of their neighbours, the paramilitary gangsters who are still involved in serious crime, the "loyalist" extremists who are quite content to resist the rule of law
They are like an embarrassing distant relative whose bad behaviour and outbursts you are aware of, and who you sincerely hope never visits.
Ulster costs the treasury more than the EU.....time for re-unification of the green isle, for the ultimate benefit of all concerned?
The Ulster protestants can't complain about joining a reactionary, religion-dominated country; Ireland has joined modernity, leaving Ulster waay out of time. |
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"Mmmm...I'd rather not delve into the mire of Ulster politics and the role of the plantation Scots.... the orangemen who insist on marching through the areas of their neighbours, the paramilitary gangsters who are still involved in serious crime, the "loyalist" extremists who are quite content to resist the rule of law
They are like an embarrassing distant relative whose bad behaviour and outbursts you are aware of, and who you sincerely hope never visits.
Ulster costs the treasury more than the EU.....time for re-unification of the green isle, for the ultimate benefit of all concerned?
The Ulster protestants can't complain about joining a reactionary, religion-dominated country; Ireland has joined modernity, leaving Ulster waay out of time."
I fully understand and share your point of view. Unfortunately the English have a history of doing similar across the globe. When we were in charge of Arabia we picked the Bin Saudis as our replacement, when forced out of Palestine we managed to sew the seeds of all the ills that now plague the Middle East, when forced out of India we managed to cause a schism that is still causing disruption in the Indian Sub Continent, we managed to split a united people in Rwanda when we pulled out that led to the genocide there, and now that we have decided we want out of the EU there seems to be a small but powerful element that is determined to destroy the EU as we leave.
Seems we just cant help ourselves, its the bolshie "OUTSIDE!" attitude of the d*unk at throwing out time reflected in our dealings with the rest of the world.
No wonder we are know as 'Perfidious Albion' across the globe.  |
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"1066 - in its enduring effects, the most catastrophic year in the history of mankind."
I had to think about that for a couple of minutes but I think I follow your reasoning.
Would it be that without the Norman invasion the Saxon kingdoms would have continued to evolve and there would not have been the plantagenets, the Tudors the reformation, the subjugation of Catholics, the growth of empire, the European royal inter intermarriages and all the world problems that have their routes in royal family squabbles and sibling rivalries from the 9th century on? |
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"1066 - in its enduring effects, the most catastrophic year in the history of mankind.
I had to think about that for a couple of minutes but I think I follow your reasoning.
Would it be that without the Norman invasion the Saxon kingdoms would have continued to evolve and there would not have been the plantagenets, the Tudors the reformation, the subjugation of Catholics, the growth of empire, the European royal inter intermarriages and all the world problems that have their routes in royal family squabbles and sibling rivalries from the 9th century on? "
Just so. For the celtic kingdoms of these islands, 950 years of hostility from a Norman-English establishment addicted to conquest and power, with equally terrible results across the globe. |
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"1066 - in its enduring effects, the most catastrophic year in the history of mankind.
I had to think about that for a couple of minutes but I think I follow your reasoning.
Would it be that without the Norman invasion the Saxon kingdoms would have continued to evolve and there would not have been the plantagenets, the Tudors the reformation, the subjugation of Catholics, the growth of empire, the European royal inter intermarriages and all the world problems that have their routes in royal family squabbles and sibling rivalries from the 9th century on?
Just so. For the celtic kingdoms of these islands, 950 years of hostility from a Norman-English establishment addicted to conquest and power, with equally terrible results across the globe."
I have to say I believe our problems go way further back than that and that humanity lost its way during the Mesopotamian era when the concept of ownership was formalised with the development of writing in order to keep records of who was owned by who and the concept of formalised religions with living gods to further control the subservient population also came into being. But that is more postulation based on an extremely limited archive and can be countered by production of the first recorded poetry. I could also make a very strong argument for the case that the worst year for mankind is was 1883 when Robert Maxim invented the machine gun and industrialised warfare. However the invention of atomic weapons in 1945 effectively curtailed that chapter in our development and is therefore easy to dismiss (so far).
So I guess the moral of the development of man is that the development of civilisation is slow and fragile and always seems to lag far behind advances technology.
I have been made think tonight, thank you and are your and the forums opinions? It wold be nice to have a civilised debate about the origins of the worlds woes and the major milestones in our political history that leads to where we are today. |
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"Question:
What happens when a bunch of clansmen strip off to the waste and charge down a hill onto marshy ground through a river and into the battle lines of English soldiers with muskets and using bayonets for the first time in history?
Answer:
It's called the Battle of Culloden, and spelled the end of the Jacobite Rebellion. The slaughter of all wounded and the first Highland clearance after the battle was unforgivable.
I believe there is even a verse in the National Anthem (not very PC so not sung these days) to commemorate it.
It really is a sad reflection on our standards of education that very few south of the border know who Cumberland is or what he did. "
Seems like they hadn't really given much thought to their battle plan, so therefore lost to much stronger and well organised military force.
But thanks for for the history lesson, it was interesting
Now where have I put them Clansmen free sausages |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"1066 - in its enduring effects, the most catastrophic year in the history of mankind.
I had to think about that for a couple of minutes but I think I follow your reasoning.
Would it be that without the Norman invasion the Saxon kingdoms would have continued to evolve and there would not have been the plantagenets, the Tudors the reformation, the subjugation of Catholics, the growth of empire, the European royal inter intermarriages and all the world problems that have their routes in royal family squabbles and sibling rivalries from the 9th century on?
Just so. For the celtic kingdoms of these islands, 950 years of hostility from a Norman-English establishment addicted to conquest and power, with equally terrible results across the globe."
My thoughts exactly.
I've walked the Culloden battlefield and met descendants from across the globe on the anniversary of the massacre.
There are a lot of people in Inverness today who hate the English for it and the subsequent ethnic cleansing and frankly I don't blame them. What I find breath-taking is why Sturgeon and Co. want to swap semi-rule from Westminster with dictatorship from Brussels!? |
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"Seems like they hadn't really given much thought to their battle plan, so therefore lost to much stronger and well organised military force.
But thanks for for the history lesson, it was interesting
Now where have I put them Clansmen free sausages "
Well by all contemporary accounts although a highland charge seemed disorganised it was a highly effective tactic at the time and when the charging clansmen crashed into their quarry with their shields and set about those around them with their claymores none were able to stand the shock. Remember a claymore is not a long sword, it is a broad sword and has about an extra foot in length and maybe double the mass of a long sword making it a most fearsome weapon to face.
Unfortunately for the clans Cumberland was a very competent commander and he picked the ground to fight a defensive battle very well. Although the 2 forces were lined up parallel to each other the marshy ground to one side of the battle field was wider than at the other. This effectively meant that Cumberlands forces were deployed with one flank refused, meaning the charge would be taken in order from one side to the other, Thus freeing up survivors of the first part of the clash to continually support and reinforce the part of the line coming under attack. This combined with the fact that prior to Culloden bayonets had been of the plug type meaning once fitted it turned a musket into a short spear while at Culloden socket bayonets were used for the first time allowing men to fire while having the bayonet fixed to the weapon meant that the Jacobite's were defeated before the battle ever started. To be honest it was less a battle and more of a slaughter from the very start.
Thankfully Culloden was the last pitched battle fought on the British soil. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Seems like they hadn't really given much thought to their battle plan, so therefore lost to much stronger and well organised military force.
But thanks for for the history lesson, it was interesting
Now where have I put them Clansmen free sausages
Well by all contemporary accounts although a highland charge seemed disorganised it was a highly effective tactic at the time and when the charging clansmen crashed into their quarry with their shields and set about those around them with their claymores none were able to stand the shock. Remember a claymore is not a long sword, it is a broad sword and has about an extra foot in length and maybe double the mass of a long sword making it a most fearsome weapon to face.
Unfortunately for the clans Cumberland was a very competent commander and he picked the ground to fight a defensive battle very well. Although the 2 forces were lined up parallel to each other the marshy ground to one side of the battle field was wider than at the other. This effectively meant that Cumberlands forces were deployed with one flank refused, meaning the charge would be taken in order from one side to the other, Thus freeing up survivors of the first part of the clash to continually support and reinforce the part of the line coming under attack. This combined with the fact that prior to Culloden bayonets had been of the plug type meaning once fitted it turned a musket into a short spear while at Culloden socket bayonets were used for the first time allowing men to fire while having the bayonet fixed to the weapon meant that the Jacobite's were defeated before the battle ever started. To be honest it was less a battle and more of a slaughter from the very start.
Thankfully Culloden was the last pitched battle fought on the British soil."
I may be wrong but wasn't Thier a battle involving the earl of Monmouth or was that earlier. ? |
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"I may be wrong but wasn't Thier a battle involving the earl of Monmouth or was that earlier. ? "
Pretty sure that Culloden is accepted to be the last pitch battle fought on British soil.There are some who claim it was the Battle of Briton in 1940, but that was fought in the skies above Briton not on the ground.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I may be wrong but wasn't Thier a battle involving the earl of Monmouth or was that earlier. ? Pretty sure that Culloden is accepted to be the last pitch battle fought on British soil.There are some who claim it was the Battle of Briton in 1940, but that was fought in the skies above Briton not on the ground."
Yes I'd agree Thier , il look up Monmouth , I may be way wrong lol |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It is Sedgemore thought in Somerset and was part of the Monmouth Rebbelion .
I knew about it as we watched a programme on it at school when I was 11 .
Bet they don't teach our history like that now  |
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"Yes I'd agree Thier , il look up Monmouth , I may be way wrong lol "
I learned most of my military history through examples given of how although things change and evolve it is the same general tactics that are used, a commander just needs to understand how a weapon most efficiently fits into the order of battle while learning military tactics during training. |
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"It is Sedgemore thought in Somerset and was part of the Monmouth Rebbelion .
I knew about it as we watched a programme on it at school when I was 11 .
Bet they don't teach our history like that now "
Wasn't that shortly after the Restoration of the Crown in 1660? I really should just google it... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It is Sedgemore thought in Somerset and was part of the Monmouth Rebbelion .
I knew about it as we watched a programme on it at school when I was 11 .
Bet they don't teach our history like that now
Wasn't that shortly after the Restoration of the Crown in 1660? I really should just google it..."
1685
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I'm Wrong. !
Culled on is 1745 , Sedgemoor was the last battle on English Soil thought by English Armies .
You will be upsetting our friends in Inverness with that bit of humour."
Not humour , bad texting , sorry |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I'm Wrong. !
Culled on is 1745 , Sedgemoor was the last battle on English Soil thought by English Armies .
You will be upsetting our friends in Inverness with that bit of humour.
Not humour , bad texting , sorry "
the last armed insurrection to take place was the radical war , in Scotland in 1820 , culminating at the battle of Bonnybridge , there is still a marker stone at the side of the road commemotating it . if you go o sighthill cemitery there is a monument marking the spot where the ringleaders were hanged and buried.
With a bit of luck Scotland might get the next bid for freedom right.
i think i read someplace that one of the leaders had served in the 95th rifles in the Napoleonic wars ( richard sharpe's regiment no less ) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I'm Wrong. !
Culled on is 1745 , Sedgemoor was the last battle on English Soil thought by English Armies .
You will be upsetting our friends in Inverness with that bit of humour.
Not humour , bad texting , sorry
the last armed insurrection to take place was the radical war , in Scotland in 1820 , culminating at the battle of Bonnybridge , there is still a marker stone at the side of the road commemotating it . if you go o sighthill cemitery there is a monument marking the spot where the ringleaders were hanged and buried.
With a bit of luck Scotland might get the next bid for freedom right.
i think i read someplace that one of the leaders had served in the 95th rifles in the Napoleonic wars ( richard sharpe's regiment no less ) "
Not heard of this il read up on it cheers |
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As late as 1882, the Crofters' Rebellion in Skye (Battle of the Braes) may not qualify as a proper battle in military terms, but detachments of police sent from the mainland on two occasions to impose "order" (ie the landlords' wishes) were repulsed by the crofters. Finally, a gunboat was sent, but bearing concessions and an offer of settlement rather than the intention to use the cannons. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"As late as 1882, the Crofters' Rebellion in Skye (Battle of the Braes) may not qualify as a proper battle in military terms, but detachments of police sent from the mainland on two occasions to impose "order" (ie the landlords' wishes) were repulsed by the crofters. Finally, a gunboat was sent, but bearing concessions and an offer of settlement rather than the intention to use the cannons."
I wonder if Peterloo counts ?
I think it was more a protest but I believe sadly there were fatalities |
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"butcher billy cumberland shuffled off this mortal coil in this day a while ago , a fat scion of the house of hannover,noted for losing every battle he was involved with bar one , unfortunatly for Scotland it was against us. After the home internattional contested just outside Inverness butcher billy took to rather novel methods to demonstrate the benifits of being ruled by the house of hannover and westminster.
May he toast foe ever and may Scotland never have to suffer the depredations of the likes of him again.
a word of caution - his remains are in the ground in westminster abby and the powers that be seem to take a bit of a dimm view of anyone dancing a jig on him
longshanks is also in the same building for those of a dancing persuasion "
I'd happily dance on the grave of each of those murdering swine, although I tend to avoid London as a destination of choice. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"butcher billy cumberland shuffled off this mortal coil in this day a while ago , a fat scion of the house of hannover,noted for losing every battle he was involved with bar one , unfortunatly for Scotland it was against us. After the home internattional contested just outside Inverness butcher billy took to rather novel methods to demonstrate the benifits of being ruled by the house of hannover and westminster.
May he toast foe ever and may Scotland never have to suffer the depredations of the likes of him again.
a word of caution - his remains are in the ground in westminster abby and the powers that be seem to take a bit of a dimm view of anyone dancing a jig on him
longshanks is also in the same building for those of a dancing persuasion
I'd happily dance on the grave of each of those murdering swine, although I tend to avoid London as a destination of choice."
i did on both , cant believe that the powers that be took such a dim view that i was evicted on both occasions |
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"butcher billy cumberland shuffled off this mortal coil in this day a while ago , a fat scion of the house of hannover,noted for losing every battle he was involved with bar one , unfortunatly for Scotland it was against us. After the home internattional contested just outside Inverness butcher billy took to rather novel methods to demonstrate the benifits of being ruled by the house of hannover and westminster.
May he toast foe ever and may Scotland never have to suffer the depredations of the likes of him again.
a word of caution - his remains are in the ground in westminster abby and the powers that be seem to take a bit of a dimm view of anyone dancing a jig on him
longshanks is also in the same building for those of a dancing persuasion
I'd happily dance on the grave of each of those murdering swine, although I tend to avoid London as a destination of choice."
"i did on both , cant believe that the powers that be took such a dim view that i was evicted on both occasions "
To be honest with both of you I cant understand why anyone would be so invested in ancient history that they would want to keep a 200 and odd year hatred alive.
Look round the world and you can see little men doing exactly the same so that they can grab a little power and use it to inflict the greatest hurt and misery on on the most of their fellow humans just to keep the hatred alive.
Look at the 2 of you, and read what you have said your proud to do.
Then look at the hatred engendered between suni and shia and the violence that is the cause of. Look at the hatred and violence between Muslim and Jew. Look at the violence between Protestant and Catholic in NI. Between Serb, Croat and all the other factions in the former Yugoslavia. Look at the hatred and violence between black and white in America.
What have they all in common? They are all fuelled by hatred kept alive over centuries for no other purpose but to provide a scapegoat and whipping boy for those who have little ability or morals but much ambition to grab power and control others lives.
Really the 2 of you and many others here should hang your heads in shame. you collectively make the world a darker place by resurrecting and keeping alive things that should be left as nothing more than stories of mistakes in history never to be repeated. not excuses to cause disturbances and feel proud about!
Sorry, but I have had enough of shallow minded gloating and jingoistic flag waving by idiots who are building the foundations of their own destruction this year!
Stop it, before it stops you! |
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"those who have little ability or morals but much ambition to grab power and control others lives."
Exactly. We have had 950 years of that shit. There is a direct line of attitude over 950 years of abuse, in various forms, emanating from a morally bankrupt English establishment.
Whether it's redcoats murdering civilians and burning their homes, leading to widespread de-population of the glens which blights our country to this day, or the harsh crushing of our industrial base by Thatcher or the plundering and squandering of our natural assets by the same witch.
The attitude of arrogance and supreme indifference by those in power toward Scotland, except as a resource to be plundered, remains as true today as ever was. Just take a wander through the empty glens or a tour round the once-thriving communities, betrayed by Heath and considered as expendable Jocks as a reasonable bargaining chip to join the EU.
The mind set of London is still to consider the abusive empire as a good thing, rather than an evil empire on a par with the third reich.
As an aside, a former British POW on the death railway in Thailand declared that the inhumanity displayed by the Japanese guards was as nothing compared to the widespread torture of civilians inflicted by the British army upon the population in Kenya during the Mau-Mau "rebellion" or independence struggle.
This, the most successful union in history, according to Cameron.
O would that power the giftie gie us, tae see ourselves as others see us.
Perhaps you should think beyond the superficial sometimes, and with some understanding. |
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over a year ago
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"1066 - in its enduring effects, the most catastrophic year in the history of mankind."
9 AD and The Battle of the Teutoburg Forest. The German tribes wipe out three entire Roman Legions.
That caused Rome to stay south of the Danube which permits Germans to develop unhindered by Rome.
Result? Four centuries later various German tribes destroy Rome, using Carthage destroyed by Rome over five centuries before as a springboard, take Northern Gaul and push all other tribes west . . that includes Jutes, Angles and Saxons into the British Isles who - almost - take the place of the indigenous Celts. |
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"Seems like they hadn't really given much thought to their battle plan, so therefore lost to much stronger and well organised military force.
But thanks for for the history lesson, it was interesting
Now where have I put them Clansmen free sausages
Well by all contemporary accounts although a highland charge seemed disorganised it was a highly effective tactic at the time and when the charging clansmen crashed into their quarry with their shields and set about those around them with their claymores none were able to stand the shock. Remember a claymore is not a long sword, it is a broad sword and has about an extra foot in length and maybe double the mass of a long sword making it a most fearsome weapon to face.
Unfortunately for the clans Cumberland was a very competent commander and he picked the ground to fight a defensive battle very well. Although the 2 forces were lined up parallel to each other the marshy ground to one side of the battle field was wider than at the other. This effectively meant that Cumberlands forces were deployed with one flank refused, meaning the charge would be taken in order from one side to the other, Thus freeing up survivors of the first part of the clash to continually support and reinforce the part of the line coming under attack. This combined with the fact that prior to Culloden bayonets had been of the plug type meaning once fitted it turned a musket into a short spear while at Culloden socket bayonets were used for the first time allowing men to fire while having the bayonet fixed to the weapon meant that the Jacobite's were defeated before the battle ever started. To be honest it was less a battle and more of a slaughter from the very start.
Thankfully Culloden was the last pitched battle fought on the British soil."
Seems like the scots didn't plan to fail they just simply failed to plan, and charged in on mass, much like Nichola Sturgeon and the SNP do today. Oh well history some times has a habit of repeating itself |
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""those who have little ability or morals but much ambition to grab power and control others lives."
Exactly. We have had 950 years of that shit. There is a direct line of attitude over 950 years of abuse, in various forms, emanating from a morally bankrupt English establishment.
Whether it's redcoats murdering civilians and burning their homes, leading to widespread de-population of the glens which blights our country to this day, or the harsh crushing of our industrial base by Thatcher or the plundering and squandering of our natural assets by the same witch.
The attitude of arrogance and supreme indifference by those in power toward Scotland, except as a resource to be plundered, remains as true today as ever was. Just take a wander through the empty glens or a tour round the once-thriving communities, betrayed by Heath and considered as expendable Jocks as a reasonable bargaining chip to join the EU.
The mind set of London is still to consider the abusive empire as a good thing, rather than an evil empire on a par with the third reich.
As an aside, a former British POW on the death railway in Thailand declared that the inhumanity displayed by the Japanese guards was as nothing compared to the widespread torture of civilians inflicted by the British army upon the population in Kenya during the Mau-Mau "rebellion" or independence struggle.
This, the most successful union in history, according to Cameron.
O would that power the giftie gie us, tae see ourselves as others see us.
Perhaps you should think beyond the superficial sometimes, and with some understanding."
How heavy is that chip that you carry around?... |
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""How heavy is that chip that you carry around?..."
No idea. Let's weigh it on the scales of justice against the abuser's indifference to the damage which he causes."
The abuser, seems like Cumberland won far and square against a badly led band of individuals, who wouldn't have complained had they one, so what's changed?..
Nothing the jocks still moan still keeping saying they are having a raw deal, still led and guided by a poor leader Nichola Sturgeon and the others who suck up to her in the SNP |
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