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31st October - What is the point?
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
Bit of a mistake by the EU in my opinion. 31st October is rather pointless. It is not really short enough to force the issue and doesn’t seem long enough for any significant change in U.K. politics to ease the issue.
I think the EU should have stuck to 30 June or given a 4-5 year extension (until the next European elections). Sticking to 30 June would have ensured something (probably unacceptable to most) would have happened. Going for an extension for the full E.U. parliament term would have meant a change in the U.K. political scenery, a confirmatory referendum - or a combination.
I just don’t see the point of 31st October when there is an Easter recess starting tomorrow and also a long summer recess coming up. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
If May is true to her word... if.... that she won’t go till this part of the process is complete, then this is about as much time as she has to do it on her terms before either the 2nd referendum, the general election or the coup within her own party before a harder brexiteer comes in to try and rip up the withdrawal agreement
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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well it just gives them another 6 months to argue and still not do anything 
another total waste of time which will end up with a crash out as the EU will just kick the UK out |
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By *estivalMan
over a year ago
borehamwood |
will get to end of october and they will extend again and again until there is another vote and if that one is still leave they will keep extending until they get the result they want.until then more of the same |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I think October was a compromise in order to get something (anything) agreed between the 27 members. Macron and a few others favoured a shorter extension, Tusk et al a much longer one. In order to avert a disastrous no deal result which will damage everyone they had to reach said compromise.
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By *ony 2016Man
over a year ago
Huddersfield /derby cinemas |
Love the way our media is reporting a major split in the EU , there very well may have been but 27 leaders of 27 different countries still managed to reach an agreement over dinner ,,, |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think October was a compromise in order to get something (anything) agreed between the 27 members. Macron and a few others favoured a shorter extension, Tusk et al a much longer one. In order to avert a disastrous no deal result which will damage everyone they had to reach said compromise.
"
Macron was always going to play hardball wit the uk, any stand the man but he does wear a suit well  |
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Revoke Article 50 and stop being in this position. Brexit is crap, no option is better than staying and by revoking Article 50, we get to sit at the table making decisions as opposed to being the naughty child - this is not the EUs fault, it is a Tory problem affecting us all |
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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago
yumsville |
It does allow the steam to come out of recent politics, though given the urgency of the talks between the two, it didn't seem to be seem to be that high on the agenda. They only held a few short meetings, giving no indication agreement or what compromises either side would make - even with May having to meet the EU with reasons for an extension.
It's only an impractical extension in the sense that it gives no time for a referendum or general election but it does give time for the EU's 'something else' previously announced. Possibly a renegotiated deal or at least political arrangement.
Labour have said they will table a no confidence motion in the government at some point and if a new PM is installed I expect that will come at some point. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The extension pre-supposes European Parliament elections are held in the UK. If they do not take place, the UK leaves on May 31."
The end of May in more ways than one.  |
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"The EU is taking back control by keeping the UK dangling on a short rope. Whoever is PM either has to get the WA through Parliament or keep going back pleading for more time."
Yes because if that were to happen we might begin to look silly..  |
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"Love the way our media is reporting a major split in the EU , there very well may have been but 27 leaders of 27 different countries still managed to reach an agreement over dinner ,,, "
This..
Some on here have been predicting the collapse of it since we set the standard by voting to leave but its not looking any more like a house of cards now than it did then.. |
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"See France is still against us until they need our military help again at least Germany is on our side still they sell a lot of cars to us lol just saying"
How do they?
They spend more on defence than we do and their armed forces are bigger than ours.. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"See France is still against us until they need our military help again at least Germany is on our side still they sell a lot of cars to us lol just saying"
Don't blame France per se, Macron indeed but remember, the French voting system is different to ours. In France you have rounds of voting, at the end of each round the lowest is eliminated and allocate it's share of the vote to a remaining party. Eventually, you end up with a stark choice, like this time... Macron or Marie Le Pen (National Front), so you vote for the lesser of two evils. The French people as a whole are not against the UK, far from it in fact. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
Most can see the UK is in pain. The country is having a nervous breakdown over Brexit.
None in the EU want to push the UK to a complete breakdown. Instead, they keep the door open to the UK finding a remedy and returning to the fold.
If and when the UK does leave, it is out in the cold for a very long time.
This way, Macron excepted, the UK knows it has options.
The alternative is a very dysfunctional and even more unstable UK, especially one led by a rabid populist unwilling to take responsibility for a mess of his own making.
The EU is nursing the patient. |
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"If May is true to her word... if.... that she won’t go till this part of the process is complete, then this is about as much time as she has to do it on her terms before either the 2nd referendum, the general election or the coup within her own party before a harder brexiteer comes in to try and rip up the withdrawal agreement
"
I’d put my money on a coup within her party and a hard line Brexiteer pm |
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Shows how weak the eu really is ...All huff and no bollocks ...shit scared we leave ....as for rat face matron he could do with sorting his own problems out ...still Germany will be in a full recession by summer ....the great eu ... |
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"See France is still against us until they need our military help again at least Germany is on our side still they sell a lot of cars to us lol just saying"
And there's brexit in a nutshell. It's all about things that happened eighty years ago. |
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For what it's worth. I can't see anyway out other than election or referendum. I say this because the other three options are all impossible given the parliamentary arithmetic.
1. No deal: theres only about 150 diehard right wing mps who support that.
2. May's deal. That's been defeated three times and there's no hope it will be fourth time lucky.
3. An agreement between Corbyn and May on a customs union. That would be voted down by a mixture of tory hard leavers and Labour hard remainers. In any event Labour is never going to take part ownership of this shitstorm.
Frankly the only way out is to throw it back to the people and beg them to end the whole thing. |
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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago
yumsville |
"Most can see the UK is in pain. The country is having a nervous breakdown over Brexit.
None in the EU want to push the UK to a complete breakdown. Instead, they keep the door open to the UK finding a remedy and returning to the fold.
If and when the UK does leave, it is out in the cold for a very long time.
This way, Macron excepted, the UK knows it has options.
The alternative is a very dysfunctional and even more unstable UK, especially one led by a rabid populist unwilling to take responsibility for a mess of his own making.
The EU is nursing the patient."
I'd say it is becoming more evident there is little opposition to the deal from Labour and more clarity that the opposition is to the future arrangement.
I find it disquieting that political language has focused on the deal rather than the future arrangements.
In some form we are going to leave, it is just how close we are going to remain. |
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"Most can see the UK is in pain. The country is having a nervous breakdown over Brexit.
None in the EU want to push the UK to a complete breakdown. Instead, they keep the door open to the UK finding a remedy and returning to the fold.
If and when the UK does leave, it is out in the cold for a very long time.
This way, Macron excepted, the UK knows it has options.
The alternative is a very dysfunctional and even more unstable UK, especially one led by a rabid populist unwilling to take responsibility for a mess of his own making.
The EU is nursing the patient.
I'd say it is becoming more evident there is little opposition to the deal from Labour and more clarity that the opposition is to the future arrangement.
I find it disquieting that political language has focused on the deal rather than the future arrangements.
In some form we are going to leave, it is just how close we are going to remain. "
I don't think we will leave. I think the balance has tilted the other way now. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Most can see the UK is in pain. The country is having a nervous breakdown over Brexit.
None in the EU want to push the UK to a complete breakdown. Instead, they keep the door open to the UK finding a remedy and returning to the fold.
If and when the UK does leave, it is out in the cold for a very long time.
This way, Macron excepted, the UK knows it has options.
The alternative is a very dysfunctional and even more unstable UK, especially one led by a rabid populist unwilling to take responsibility for a mess of his own making.
The EU is nursing the patient.
I'd say it is becoming more evident there is little opposition to the deal from Labour and more clarity that the opposition is to the future arrangement.
I find it disquieting that political language has focused on the deal rather than the future arrangements.
In some form we are going to leave, it is just how close we are going to remain.
I don't think we will leave. I think the balance has tilted the other way now. "
I agree and a second referendum absolves parliament of the responsibility .The wind of change has been blowing for months now. |
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"Bit of a mistake by the EU in my opinion. 31st October is rather pointless. It is not really short enough to force the issue and doesn’t seem long enough for any significant change in U.K. politics to ease the issue.
I think the EU should have stuck to 30 June or given a 4-5 year extension (until the next European elections). Sticking to 30 June would have ensured something (probably unacceptable to most) would have happened. Going for an extension for the full E.U. parliament term would have meant a change in the U.K. political scenery, a confirmatory referendum - or a combination.
I just don’t see the point of 31st October when there is an Easter recess starting tomorrow and also a long summer recess coming up. "
Its Halloween
They are laughing at the UK
And it wont be agreed by then |
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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago
yumsville |
"Most can see the UK is in pain. The country is having a nervous breakdown over Brexit.
None in the EU want to push the UK to a complete breakdown. Instead, they keep the door open to the UK finding a remedy and returning to the fold.
If and when the UK does leave, it is out in the cold for a very long time.
This way, Macron excepted, the UK knows it has options.
The alternative is a very dysfunctional and even more unstable UK, especially one led by a rabid populist unwilling to take responsibility for a mess of his own making.
The EU is nursing the patient.
I'd say it is becoming more evident there is little opposition to the deal from Labour and more clarity that the opposition is to the future arrangement.
I find it disquieting that political language has focused on the deal rather than the future arrangements.
In some form we are going to leave, it is just how close we are going to remain.
I don't think we will leave. I think the balance has tilted the other way now. "
The only way a referendum or peoples vote will come about is if Parliament legislate it. It has been overwhelmingly voted down, there is no sentiment for it. Labour getting voted in will not put it on their mandate as they will only offer it for two reasons. 1/ to save the people from a disastrous no deal brexit and 2/ from a botched Tory/May deal. They are not offering it in a Labour brexit. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Frankly the only way out is to throw it back to the people and beg them to end the whole thing. "
But therein lies another problem, what options are put on the ballot paper for people to vote for? |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"
I’d put my money on a coup within her party and a hard line Brexiteer pm "
Probably. But what will it change? None of the equations in Parliament. It will just make the Government of the UK even more erratic and dysfunctional. |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Newbury |
"Frankly the only way out is to throw it back to the people and beg them to end the whole thing.
But therein lies another problem, what options are put on the ballot paper for people to vote for?"
We won't be given the option to leave this time.
It's a huge establishment fuck up, the EU benefits mostly them and we won't be allowed to leave. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"
We won't be given the option to leave this time.
It's a huge establishment fuck up, the EU benefits mostly them and we won't be allowed to leave. "
Did anyone seriously think a different outcome was possible?
A minority government formed by a party hopelessly divided for decades by Europe, trying relentlessly to push for the exit door on party lines.
I’m afraid the unicorns of the referendum campaign flew straight into the government’s mindset.
Mrs May, immediately after her elevation to PM or the 2017 General Election, could have pressed the reset button.
She could have distanced herself from the ludicrous claims made by the leave campain and sought to manage expectations with a honest reset of expectations.
Mrs May could have recognised the fallibility of a minority government trying to implement a policy as divisive as Brexit and delegated it to a cross-bench coalition tasked with finding a consensus that could command support.
She did none of that. The opposite in fact.
She circled the wagons around an inner clique of Tories and wasted millions of £s in legal fees trying to keep Parliament out of the process and shielding the legal paperwork from any sort of scrutiny.
Each time she lost she just kept carrying on as if nothing had changed.
She ought to have known after the 2017 election the size of the hole she was in, how huge the numbers stacked against her were.
When you are in a hole, the first rule is to stop digging.
Mrs May dug herself all the way to Australia. By the time the penny dropped, she had no way out.
As Prime Ministers go, the most spectacular fail of anyone’s political antennae of my lifetime. |
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"Frankly the only way out is to throw it back to the people and beg them to end the whole thing.
But therein lies another problem, what options are put on the ballot paper for people to vote for?"
I'd say
1. Revoke article 50 and stay in the EU
2. Leave on the basis of the negotiated deal
3. Leave with no deal.
We all get two votes and vote for our first and second choice. The second choices of the option coming last are then redistributed to the other two choices.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" I'd say
1. Revoke article 50 and stay in the EU
2. Leave on the basis of the negotiated deal
3. Leave with no deal.
We all get two votes and vote for our first and second choice. The second choices of the option coming last are then redistributed to the other two choices.
"
Interesting, but I can see obections that there are two leave options to one remain |
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
"There is precedent for a 2 question referendum.
The first paper is a simple leave or remain.
The second paper is a simple leave without an agreement or leave with an agreement.
"
That is a better option than the three vote option. However, if part 1 was similarly split narrowly as it was last time (either way) - it does not really resolve anything.
The wording would have to be either May’s deal or Remain as nothing else is even remotely viable. Even then, a narrow margin (either way) would be problematical. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"There is precedent for a 2 question referendum.
The first paper is a simple leave or remain.
The second paper is a simple leave without an agreement or leave with an agreement.
That is a better option than the three vote option. However, if part 1 was similarly split narrowly as it was last time (either way) - it does not really resolve anything.
The wording would have to be either May’s deal or Remain as nothing else is even remotely viable. Even then, a narrow margin (either way) would be problematical."
But if you choose the remain option in paper 1, paper 2 becomes redundant as you're being asked to vote go criticize yourself surely? |
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" I'd say
1. Revoke article 50 and stay in the EU
2. Leave on the basis of the negotiated deal
3. Leave with no deal.
We all get two votes and vote for our first and second choice. The second choices of the option coming last are then redistributed to the other two choices.
Interesting, but I can see obections that there are two leave options to one remain "
Why's that a problem? The polls suggest the deal would come bottom of the three choices. Those voters second choices would the be redistributed. If they think leaving is more important than no deal disruption, they'll vote for no deal and that will win. If the opposite , they'll vote remain and they will win.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" I'd say
1. Revoke article 50 and stay in the EU
2. Leave on the basis of the negotiated deal
3. Leave with no deal.
We all get two votes and vote for our first and second choice. The second choices of the option coming last are then redistributed to the other two choices.
Interesting, but I can see obections that there are two leave options to one remain "
It does not matter what the questions are or would be as the hard leavers will not be happy no matter what
Anyways did the house not make it illegal to leave without a deal ?
So there are only 2 choices whatever crap deal they can cobble together or remain 
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"
But if you choose the remain option in paper 1, paper 2 becomes redundant as you're being asked to vote go criticize yourself surely?"
No.
You are indicating a preference how to leave IF the first question yields a majority for leave.
If the first question yields a majority to remain, the second question becomes irrelevant (though the result would be interesting nonetheless).
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I think some here are losing the run of themselves, if TMs deal is not ratified by Parliament, and no further extension is sought, the UK leaves the E.U. by default, irrespective of whether or not parliament has voted that it cannot leave without a deal!!
Because if the Cooper Letwin bill, TM has to repeatedly seek an extension, unless she gets her deal across the line, but there is no onus on the EU27 to keep facilitating the UK!!
I read here, repeatedly posted by the dwindling number of pro brexiteers, that the E.U. won’t let the UK leave! The E.U. aren’t preventing the UK from leaving, it is TM who is going to Europe looking for extensions!!
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"There is precedent for a 2 question referendum.
The first paper is a simple leave or remain.
The second paper is a simple leave without an agreement or leave with an agreement.
That is a better option than the three vote option. However, if part 1 was similarly split narrowly as it was last time (either way) - it does not really resolve anything.
The wording would have to be either May’s deal or Remain as nothing else is even remotely viable. Even then, a narrow margin (either way) would be problematical.
But if you choose the remain option in paper 1, paper 2 becomes redundant as you're being asked to vote go criticize yourself surely?"
Not at all.
First paper is leave/remain.
Second paper is, if the country decides to leave what is your choice.
Wanting to remain doesnt mean you cant have an opinion on what type of Brexit you think is best. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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This whole sorry debacle lies at the hands of David Cameron and his then cabinet, which I believe uncluded TM. It was a blatant piece of opportunism to win the General Election as he knew Ed Milliband had taken a vote on Europe off the table.Cameron though he would then be able to convince the country to say in the EU bit it back fired horribly and he fell on his sword , whilst plunging the UK into chaos. He has since been conspicuous by his absence. Would love to see him appear on tv to explain and justify himself.
With the greatest of respect the great British public should never have been given control over such a complex issue , and to consider putting it back to the people yet again would be madness. That really would be the MPs passing the buck and afterwards holding up their hands and saying.."well you all voted to do that"
Ask the average man or woman in the street to explain the complexities of the back stop or the customs union to you and I suspect you would hear a lot of waffling followed swiftly by..well I just think we should leave without a deal and get out anyway...Ouchhhhh
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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago
yumsville |
So this is from Pascal Lamy - former director-general of the WTO and former European trade commissioner. He discusses the customs union in N. Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/12/brexit-customs-union-labour-irish-border
Essentially the push for a customs union will not solve the problems of brexit. A customs union dictates tariffs on borders, the single market dictates regulations.
He gives an example of UK having an arrangement with the EU on the import of chicken. It'll have both a common tariff across the EU and regulation from market access across the EU. However, problems will arise say with chlorinated chicken from the US (or chicken for any country differing in regulation from the EU), it would not be allowed to enter under single market regulations.
So to Lamy... the customs union idea that is swelling in the Commons will not resolve the border issue, as single market rules would have to be applied. |
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Taking a step back from all this for a minute, surely the best answer is simply to revoke Article 50? None of the reasons for leaving stack up, none of the people pushing leave (at the leadership level) are trustworthy, no benefits arise from leaving and it has caused untold cost to our society in terms of collective angst, anger, frustration and financial cost. There is no halfway house, it is either full leave or full stay. My preference is clearly stay as it has been very good for our country and will continue to be. I’d like to change our MPs & Government, as they are the one’s who have fucked up |
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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago
yumsville |
"Taking a step back from all this for a minute, surely the best answer is simply to revoke Article 50? None of the reasons for leaving stack up, none of the people pushing leave (at the leadership level) are trustworthy, no benefits arise from leaving and it has caused untold cost to our society in terms of collective angst, anger, frustration and financial cost. There is no halfway house, it is either full leave or full stay. My preference is clearly stay as it has been very good for our country and will continue to be. I’d like to change our MPs & Government, as they are the one’s who have fucked up "
You say there's no half way house so any type of deal good or bad is non negotiable - to you it's either leave or stay but in revoking you are automatically staying and getting your own way. Leave will be off the table. |
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After the long summer recess, the autumn party conference season starts, meaning little will happen between now and Halloween. Parliament should be sitting 7 days a week, without a long summer holiday.
Best plan is revoke article 50 and only to resubmit if ever there is a clear government agreement on what is completely understood and accepted by more than 80% of the population |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Maybe i am just speaking for myself but i think most pro Brexiteers have stopped posting on the forum due to fact of being denounced as "racist thugs" and "uneducated" by a lot of the remainers on here! |
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"Maybe i am just speaking for myself but i think most pro Brexiteers have stopped posting on the forum due to fact of being denounced as "racist thugs" and "uneducated" by a lot of the remainers on here!"
That and also the 'Empassioned Optimistic Belief' that seems to be the core reason for being a Brexiteer must get ground down by the constant deluge of research, polling, forecast and studies by economists, academics and civil servants showing that we will be worse off if we do leave. |
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"Maybe i am just speaking for myself but i think most pro Brexiteers have stopped posting on the forum due to fact of being denounced as "racist thugs" and "uneducated" by a lot of the remainers on here!"
I think that on both sides of the debate there have been accusations bandied about, it's a subject which matters so hence the strong opinions..
Would differ with your view that it's a lot, more like some and it cuts both ways..
And sometimes it's been more than right to say some have been talking like racist thugs..
I see no reason to excuse or ignore someone's racism, it should be challenged.. |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"After the long summer recess, the autumn party conference season starts, meaning little will happen between now and Halloween. Parliament should be sitting 7 days a week, without a long summer holiday.
Best plan is revoke article 50 and only to resubmit if ever there is a clear government agreement on what is completely understood and accepted by more than 80% of the population "
Real communist talk here lol |
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"Taking a step back from all this for a minute, surely the best answer is simply to revoke Article 50? None of the reasons for leaving stack up, none of the people pushing leave (at the leadership level) are trustworthy, no benefits arise from leaving and it has caused untold cost to our society in terms of collective angst, anger, frustration and financial cost. There is no halfway house, it is either full leave or full stay. My preference is clearly stay as it has been very good for our country and will continue to be. I’d like to change our MPs & Government, as they are the one’s who have fucked up
You say there's no half way house so any type of deal good or bad is non negotiable - to you it's either leave or stay but in revoking you are automatically staying and getting your own way. Leave will be off the table. "
Well No Deal is patently worse than Revoke Article 50, however all the ‘halfway house’ options do not give us any control. I accept that if taking back control is what people really want, then No Deal is the only solution, however their is no majority for this, so avoiding a crap fudge says Revoke Article 50. |
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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago
yumsville |
"Taking a step back from all this for a minute, surely the best answer is simply to revoke Article 50? None of the reasons for leaving stack up, none of the people pushing leave (at the leadership level) are trustworthy, no benefits arise from leaving and it has caused untold cost to our society in terms of collective angst, anger, frustration and financial cost. There is no halfway house, it is either full leave or full stay. My preference is clearly stay as it has been very good for our country and will continue to be. I’d like to change our MPs & Government, as they are the one’s who have fucked up
You say there's no half way house so any type of deal good or bad is non negotiable - to you it's either leave or stay but in revoking you are automatically staying and getting your own way. Leave will be off the table.
Well No Deal is patently worse than Revoke Article 50, however all the ‘halfway house’ options do not give us any control. I accept that if taking back control is what people really want, then No Deal is the only solution, however their is no majority for this, so avoiding a crap fudge says Revoke Article 50."
The options to leave the EU and 'take back control' (deal wise) are to leave with a deal and enter trade talks or leave with no deal and enter WTO trade talks.
There is no sentiment for No Deal. There is no sentiment for Revoke. Both major parties have mandates saying they'd honour the referendum so they agree there is sentiment to deal in some form. Leaving and 'halfway house' options whoever comes up with it, cannot be entered into until the withdrawal agreement is signed. The only reason the deal is not being passed is due to the future political declaration - both major parties agree on the withdrawal agreement.
580 pages are apparently good - 30 pages are apparently bad; it doesn't sound much of a fudge. |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"The EU is taking back control by keeping the UK dangling on a short rope. Whoever is PM either has to get the WA through Parliament or keep going back pleading for more time.
Yes because if that were to happen we might begin to look silly.. "
We are looking very silly at the moment but we Brits have a good sense of humour,well older people do,the younger generation are to misrable,probably because there turning into miserable europeans |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Maybe i am just speaking for myself but i think most pro Brexiteers have stopped posting on the forum due to fact of being denounced as "racist thugs" and "uneducated" by a lot of the remainers on here!"
Is it not more likely that they don’t like being proven wrong?
People in favour of Brexit are going on faith, emotion and feeling. Nothing that’s tangible or measurable. So when arguments come about with remainers, they’re unable to get the upper hand over fact and evidence based arguments.
I have seen people say such things as “not all leavers are racist, but all racists are leavers”, if that’s true or not, who knows. But I haven’t seen anyone being labelled racist for simply being a leaver. On the other hand, there have, from time to time, been people who posted some proper nasty shit about Muslims, or foreigners for example. And those people get called out. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I agree with you that some of the things that have been posted recently are very racist in nature and quite disturbing to be honest, and I for one have certainly not been part of this. I believe the whole brexit subject is very divisive whether your beliefs are "emotional" or "factual", and I am sure whatever arguments I could present would not sway you no more than yours would mine. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
"This whole sorry debacle lies at the hands of David Cameron and his then cabinet, which I believe uncluded TM. It was a blatant piece of opportunism to win the General Election as he knew Ed Milliband had taken a vote on Europe off the table.Cameron though he would then be able to convince the country to say in the EU bit it back fired horribly and he fell on his sword , whilst plunging the UK into chaos.
"
George Osborne and Donald Tusk tell a different story.
Both thought he was crazy to include a referendum in the 2015 manifesto.
Cameron assured them it would not actually happen.
He expected a hung parliament again and another coalition. The Lib Dems would demand he dropped the referendum idea, letting him walk away with clean hands.
He got a shock when the Conservatives won a majority.
Cameron has yet to tell his side of the story - the memoirs are due out later this year apparently.
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"The EU is taking back control by keeping the UK dangling on a short rope. Whoever is PM either has to get the WA through Parliament or keep going back pleading for more time.
Yes because if that were to happen we might begin to look silly.. We are looking very silly at the moment but we Brits have a good sense of humour,well older people do,the younger generation are to misrable,probably because there turning into miserable europeans "
Do you know according to the UN's World Happiness Ratings 12 other European countries are ranked higher than the UK. Maybe the younger generation are miserable because of something else? Maybe that thing is you? |
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It gave time for a high ranking American politician to visit and tell the UK that a no deal with the EU will mean a no deal with the US unless a backstop is brought in.
Expect this point to be said again and again, if the media broadcasts it or not, who knows. |
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"It gave time for a high ranking American politician to visit and tell the UK that a no deal with the EU will mean a no deal with the US unless a backstop is brought in.
Expect this point to be said again and again, if the media broadcasts it or not, who knows."
Guessing you mean Nancy Pelosi? What point are you making, her comments are all over the press. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Maybe i am just speaking for myself but i think most pro Brexiteers have stopped posting on the forum due to fact of being denounced as "racist thugs" and "uneducated" by a lot of the remainers on here!"
I think its more likely that they are beginning to realise they backed a three legged horse and cannot bring themselves to admit the truth that Brexit isn’t working for anyone. |
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"Guessing you mean Nancy Pelosi? What point are you making, her comments are all over the press."
My point is, a no-deal only happens if UK can not promise a no border in NI.
The US has been saying for months that a back stop must be applied to the north of Ireland at least for any trade deal with them in a no-deal scenario.
Congress, the Senate, the White House, all of them are on the same page on this.
English people keep saying 70 countries are ready to do a trade deal in a no-deal scenario. But they are not.
The extended deadline gives other countries to make this clear, that yes the UK can cut ties with the EU and they will continue to trade, but not if they cut up the GFA.
If a back stop is needed either way, why is the government voting it down over a backstop? Given till halloween to figure it out. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
It is apparent from what I have been reading that the Irish-American lobby is already mobilised on the backstop issue.
No backstop, no trade deal.
Trump can spout any old shit he likes about the UK, but the reality is Congress will block any proposal that is seen to let the UK off the hook when it comes to the Belfast Agreement
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It is apparent from what I have been reading that the Irish-American lobby is already mobilised on the backstop issue.
No backstop, no trade deal.
Trump can spout any old shit he likes about the UK, but the reality is Congress will block any proposal that is seen to let the UK off the hook when it comes to the Belfast Agreement
"
We don't need any deal.
We don't need any backstop.
We don't need any border in NI.
We will get trade deals better than we have now with everyone.
Leavers said so, so there's nothing to worry about  |
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"It is apparent from what I have been reading that the Irish-American lobby is already mobilised on the backstop issue.
No backstop, no trade deal.
Trump can spout any old shit he likes about the UK, but the reality is Congress will block any proposal that is seen to let the UK off the hook when it comes to the Belfast Agreement
We don't need any deal.
We don't need any backstop.
We don't need any border in NI.
We will get trade deals better than we have now with everyone.
Leavers said so, so there's nothing to worry about "
Thank goodness for that, lets move on to Climate Change - that’llbe easy to fix after this |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Maybe i am just speaking for myself but i think most pro Brexiteers have stopped posting on the forum due to fact of being denounced as "racist thugs" and "uneducated" by a lot of the remainers on here!
I think its more likely that they are beginning to realise they backed a three legged horse and cannot bring themselves to admit the truth that Brexit isn’t working for anyone."
well I guess that's your opinion but I still would vote the same again because of what I believe in, yeah I know I am a @@*&% and a $$%€£¥ in your eyes probably but I accept we are all different and have different points of view, some dnt want out an never will, some wish we had already left an some just dnt give a shit, and whether in the end we stay or we leave I firmly believe the whole thing should have been handled far better from the offset instead of all the squabbling from people trying to get there own way instead of accepting the referendum vote an working to achieve it in the best way for everyone, it would have been far less damaging to our economy, business and our future relationship with the eu. |
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My own personal view with it being 31st October is that it allows time for a June election to be called when parliament returns next week. The Tories will lose badly, Labour will be in government and negotiate a far better deal. I'm not convinced that a second referendum is in any way helpful, democratically we do need to leave, but we need to do so in an orderly fashion with a deal that protects our interests and the Tories have failed to deliver that. |
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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago
Bristol East |
The Tories need to appoint a new leader first, assuming May finally does throw in the towel.
Who in their right mind would to pick up this toxic mess?
No doubt there are quite a few whose ambition greatly exceeds their ability.
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
"My own personal view with it being 31st October is that it allows time for a June election to be called when parliament returns next week. The Tories will lose badly, Labour will be in government and negotiate a far better deal. I'm not convinced that a second referendum is in any way helpful, democratically we do need to leave, but we need to do so in an orderly fashion with a deal that protects our interests and the Tories have failed to deliver that. "
There is NO CHANCE that Theresa May will call an election anytime soon. This Parliament is now destined to run its course purely because the Conservatives know that they will be wholly trashed at an election. Also, they don't even have a Leader who all Conservatives could get behind. |
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
"Maybe i am just speaking for myself but i think most pro Brexiteers have stopped posting on the forum due to fact of being denounced as "racist thugs" and "uneducated" by a lot of the remainers on here!
I think its more likely that they are beginning to realise they backed a three legged horse and cannot bring themselves to admit the truth that Brexit isn’t working for anyone."
I would like to think that you are right but in fact, I fear that the Brexiters have just gone quiet realising they have lost the argument but still determined to express their opinion at the ballot box.
If the EU elections do go ahead and Farage's Party does well (and polling puts them well ahead of both Labour and Conservatives) then we are all just going to remain in this continuous cycle of frustration for many more years to come. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The Tories need to appoint a new leader first, assuming May finally does throw in the towel.
Who in their right mind would to pick up this toxic mess?
No doubt there are quite a few whose ambition greatly exceeds their ability.
"
LOL, damn right |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Maybe i am just speaking for myself but i think most pro Brexiteers have stopped posting on the forum due to fact of being denounced as "racist thugs" and "uneducated" by a lot of the remainers on here!
I think its more likely that they are beginning to realise they backed a three legged horse and cannot bring themselves to admit the truth that Brexit isn’t working for anyone.
I would like to think that you are right but in fact, I fear that the Brexiters have just gone quiet realising they have lost the argument but still determined to express their opinion at the ballot box.
If the EU elections do go ahead and Farage's Party does well (and polling puts them well ahead of both Labour and Conservatives) then we are all just going to remain in this continuous cycle of frustration for many more years to come."
I was trying to find some optimistic view of the peace and quiet but sadly, I agree that you’re right about where we are heading. The Brexiteers will probably do well at the european elections and think they are in the running again....and as for the tango man over the water, I also think there are enough dumbasses over there who will vote him in for a second term too. Sad....very sad! |
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"Maybe i am just speaking for myself but i think most pro Brexiteers have stopped posting on the forum due to fact of being denounced as "racist thugs" and "uneducated" by a lot of the remainers on here!
I think its more likely that they are beginning to realise they backed a three legged horse and cannot bring themselves to admit the truth that Brexit isn’t working for anyone."
A three legged horse is better than the pantomine horse fielded by remain, a £9million leaflet,the prime minster and chancellor spreading tales of doom,US president and film/sports stars for support and they still couldn't win!Lol |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Maybe i am just speaking for myself but i think most pro Brexiteers have stopped posting on the forum due to fact of being denounced as "racist thugs" and "uneducated" by a lot of the remainers on here!
I think its more likely that they are beginning to realise they backed a three legged horse and cannot bring themselves to admit the truth that Brexit isn’t working for anyone.
A three legged horse is better than the pantomine horse fielded by remain, a £9million leaflet,the prime minster and chancellor spreading tales of doom,US president and film/sports stars for support and they still couldn't win!Lol "
Ah well, as long as you’re keeping up with what’s happening currently! |
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"Maybe i am just speaking for myself but i think most pro Brexiteers have stopped posting on the forum due to fact of being denounced as "racist thugs" and "uneducated" by a lot of the remainers on here!
I think its more likely that they are beginning to realise they backed a three legged horse and cannot bring themselves to admit the truth that Brexit isn’t working for anyone.
A three legged horse is better than the pantomine horse fielded by remain, a £9million leaflet,the prime minster and chancellor spreading tales of doom,US president and film/sports stars for support and they still couldn't win!Lol "
& Leave faked film and picture of Syrian immigrants and women been assaulted. These had significant views on social media and clearly influenced people - as well as lying and cheating.
Nowhere has Remain done anything like this. Leave was a very effective marketing campaign, if it had been properly controlled by the ASA, it would have had to re-run an apology and admit to the lies. |
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"Maybe i am just speaking for myself but i think most pro Brexiteers have stopped posting on the forum due to fact of being denounced as "racist thugs" and "uneducated" by a lot of the remainers on here!
I think its more likely that they are beginning to realise they backed a three legged horse and cannot bring themselves to admit the truth that Brexit isn’t working for anyone.
A three legged horse is better than the pantomine horse fielded by remain, a £9million leaflet,the prime minster and chancellor spreading tales of doom,US president and film/sports stars for support and they still couldn't win!Lol
& Leave faked film and picture of Syrian immigrants and women been assaulted. These had significant views on social media and clearly influenced people - as well as lying and cheating.
Nowhere has Remain done anything like this. Leave was a very effective marketing campaign, if it had been properly controlled by the ASA, it would have had to re-run an apology and admit to the lies."
The government leaflet went to 27million homes more than enough to get the remain message across don't you think!? |
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By *oo hot OP Couple
over a year ago
North West |
"Maybe i am just speaking for myself but i think most pro Brexiteers have stopped posting on the forum due to fact of being denounced as "racist thugs" and "uneducated" by a lot of the remainers on here!
I think its more likely that they are beginning to realise they backed a three legged horse and cannot bring themselves to admit the truth that Brexit isn’t working for anyone.
A three legged horse is better than the pantomine horse fielded by remain, a £9million leaflet,the prime minster and chancellor spreading tales of doom,US president and film/sports stars for support and they still couldn't win!Lol
& Leave faked film and picture of Syrian immigrants and women been assaulted. These had significant views on social media and clearly influenced people - as well as lying and cheating.
Nowhere has Remain done anything like this. Leave was a very effective marketing campaign, if it had been properly controlled by the ASA, it would have had to re-run an apology and admit to the lies.
The government leaflet went to 27million homes more than enough to get the remain message across don't you think!? "
I can’t believe that this discussion is still going on.
The Remain argument failed because in the main, it was factual and based on logic and presumed a modicum of understanding of the issues at the heart of the matter. The Leave argument was successful because it was emotionally driven and designed to appeal to an illogical fear and misunderstanding of the EU that had been fuelled for years by an (actual) elite of millionaire and billionaire media owner. Society today is more politically ignorant than at any time I can ever remember in my lifetime and my personal opinion is that social media has “educated” people far more effectively than the education system and the result is that large swathes of society are simply unable and/or unwilling to question their own confirmation bias.
A very old Roman proverb said... “ Whenever something is going wrong, look at your reflection before you look at others.”
My opinion is that the entire Brexit argument is/was an emotionally driven blame argument.
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"Maybe i am just speaking for myself but i think most pro Brexiteers have stopped posting on the forum due to fact of being denounced as "racist thugs" and "uneducated" by a lot of the remainers on here!
I think its more likely that they are beginning to realise they backed a three legged horse and cannot bring themselves to admit the truth that Brexit isn’t working for anyone.
A three legged horse is better than the pantomine horse fielded by remain, a £9million leaflet,the prime minster and chancellor spreading tales of doom,US president and film/sports stars for support and they still couldn't win!Lol
& Leave faked film and picture of Syrian immigrants and women been assaulted. These had significant views on social media and clearly influenced people - as well as lying and cheating.
Nowhere has Remain done anything like this. Leave was a very effective marketing campaign, if it had been properly controlled by the ASA, it would have had to re-run an apology and admit to the lies.
The government leaflet went to 27million homes more than enough to get the remain message across don't you think!?
I can’t believe that this discussion is still going on.
The Remain argument failed because in the main, it was factual and based on logic and presumed a modicum of understanding of the issues at the heart of the matter. The Leave argument was successful because it was emotionally driven and designed to appeal to an illogical fear and misunderstanding of the EU that had been fuelled for years by an (actual) elite of millionaire and billionaire media owner. Society today is more politically ignorant than at any time I can ever remember in my lifetime and my personal opinion is that social media has “educated” people far more effectively than the education system and the result is that large swathes of society are simply unable and/or unwilling to question their own confirmation bias.
A very old Roman proverb said... “ Whenever something is going wrong, look at your reflection before you look at others.”
My opinion is that the entire Brexit argument is/was an emotionally driven blame argument.
"
I hope you listen to that very old Roman proverb! |
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"Maybe i am just speaking for myself but i think most pro Brexiteers have stopped posting on the forum due to fact of being denounced as "racist thugs" and "uneducated" by a lot of the remainers on here!
I think its more likely that they are beginning to realise they backed a three legged horse and cannot bring themselves to admit the truth that Brexit isn’t working for anyone. well I guess that's your opinion but I still would vote the same again because of what I believe in, yeah I know I am a @@*&% and a $$%€£¥ in your eyes probably but I accept we are all different and have different points of view, some dnt want out an never will, some wish we had already left an some just dnt give a shit, and whether in the end we stay or we leave I firmly believe the whole thing should have been handled far better from the offset instead of all the squabbling from people trying to get there own way instead of accepting the referendum vote an working to achieve it in the best way for everyone, it would have been far less damaging to our economy, business and our future relationship with the eu."
A lot of those squabbling are Leavers. This is exactly what was always going to happen because that's how big, complicated, controversial issues are. You were told this pre-referendum and you dismissed it as project fear. You reap what you sow. Own it. |
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