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"labour have saked alister campbell after voting libral in euro elections" If he's voting against his own party i would think so | |||
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"the key words in the labour party policy apparently is "to influence people to vote for another party" Campbell told people how he was voted AFTER the polls had closed and the results were coming in.... so unless the party position is that time travel exists, then the above is nonsense so if voting against your own party is grounds for instant dismissal... then there are 30 odd labour mp who went against the 3 line whip vote on the 2nd referendum process.. also jemery corbyn himself had flouted these rules both in parliament... and congratulation then respect party person george galloway for a bradford by election win against the then labour party.... they put this thru to steer people away from the anti-semitism stuff and its blown up in their faces....." I would say A vote of no confidence on corbyn isn't the same as voting for another party though. | |||
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"I believe if you're a member of the Labour Party and you state that you have voted for another party in an election you automatically lose membership. " This is true. But also: good riddance. | |||
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"Removed in two days after a summary closed door internal "process". Antisemitism complaints still outstanding after 3 years. Labour has some "interesting" priorities." this was targetted and spiteful and they deserve the backlash they are getting.... what the "cult of corbyn" and his followers seem not to understand, that instead of labour being seen as a "broad church of opinions" then looks "narrow minded" and vendictive... they are alienating the very people they will have to try and win over if they are going to win the next election..... why should people go back to labour for the policy they obviously didn't like hasn't or doesn't change..... | |||
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"No real surprise! After all if a footballer said I’m just going to score this goal for the other side I’m sure he would be fired too!! "In this case, the subtle difference is that this footballer waited until the game was over. | |||
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"this was targetted and spiteful and they deserve the backlash they are getting.... what the "cult of corbyn" and his followers seem not to understand, that instead of labour being seen as a "broad church of opinions" then looks "narrow minded" and vendictive... they are alienating the very people they will have to try and win over if they are going to win the next election..... why should people go back to labour for the policy they obviously didn't like hasn't or doesn't change....." Clearly you are not a member of the Labour Party. On joining you declare you support the Labour Party and are not a member of, or support any other political party. By publicly stating you voted for another party (no matter the reason) you clearly lend them your support and no longer support the Labour Party. Therefore he and a number of other Blairites have fallen foul of Labour Party rules and should be removed from the party. The real irony is while they wielded power in the party they used the very same rule to remove anyone suspected of being a member or Militant supporter even though every Militant member was a fully committed Labour member and would never have voted for any other party. Anyway like I said about May, good riddance to bad rubbish. But in this case I hope the rest of the Torylite brigade decide to join him. | |||
"this was targetted and spiteful and they deserve the backlash they are getting.... what the "cult of corbyn" and his followers seem not to understand, that instead of labour being seen as a "broad church of opinions" then looks "narrow minded" and vendictive... they are alienating the very people they will have to try and win over if they are going to win the next election..... why should people go back to labour for the policy they obviously didn't like hasn't or doesn't change..... Clearly you are not a member of the Labour Party. On joining you declare you support the Labour Party and are not a member of, or support any other political party. By publicly stating you voted for another party (no matter the reason) you clearly lend them your support and no longer support the Labour Party. Therefore he and a number of other Blairites have fallen foul of Labour Party rules and should be removed from the party. The real irony is while they wielded power in the party they used the very same rule to remove anyone suspected of being a member or Militant supporter even though every Militant member was a fully committed Labour member and would never have voted for any other party. Anyway like I said about May, good riddance to bad rubbish. But in this case I hope the rest of the Torylite brigade decide to join him." Doesn't this sound a bit like a conflict between the wishes of leftist party activists wanting a leftist agenda and the mainstreamists within the party who recognise that Labour will fail at the ballot box without a more centralist outlook. | |||
"this was targetted and spiteful and they deserve the backlash they are getting.... what the "cult of corbyn" and his followers seem not to understand, that instead of labour being seen as a "broad church of opinions" then looks "narrow minded" and vendictive... they are alienating the very people they will have to try and win over if they are going to win the next election..... why should people go back to labour for the policy they obviously didn't like hasn't or doesn't change..... Clearly you are not a member of the Labour Party. On joining you declare you support the Labour Party and are not a member of, or support any other political party. By publicly stating you voted for another party (no matter the reason) you clearly lend them your support and no longer support the Labour Party. Therefore he and a number of other Blairites have fallen foul of Labour Party rules and should be removed from the party. The real irony is while they wielded power in the party they used the very same rule to remove anyone suspected of being a member or Militant supporter even though every Militant member was a fully committed Labour member and would never have voted for any other party. Anyway like I said about May, good riddance to bad rubbish. But in this case I hope the rest of the Torylite brigade decide to join him. Doesn't this sound a bit like a conflict between the wishes of leftist party activists wanting a leftist agenda and the mainstreamists within the party who recognise that Labour will fail at the ballot box without a more centralist outlook." Correct. Real power doesn't come from 100% backing from the Party at a selective, block vote conference. It comes from winning 50% + 1 of the parliamentary constituencies in the only realistic peoples vote. | |||
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"this was targetted and spiteful and they deserve the backlash they are getting.... what the "cult of corbyn" and his followers seem not to understand, that instead of labour being seen as a "broad church of opinions" then looks "narrow minded" and vendictive... they are alienating the very people they will have to try and win over if they are going to win the next election..... why should people go back to labour for the policy they obviously didn't like hasn't or doesn't change..... Clearly you are not a member of the Labour Party. On joining you declare you support the Labour Party and are not a member of, or support any other political party. By publicly stating you voted for another party (no matter the reason) you clearly lend them your support and no longer support the Labour Party. Therefore he and a number of other Blairites have fallen foul of Labour Party rules and should be removed from the party. The real irony is while they wielded power in the party they used the very same rule to remove anyone suspected of being a member or Militant supporter even though every Militant member was a fully committed Labour member and would never have voted for any other party. Anyway like I said about May, good riddance to bad rubbish. But in this case I hope the rest of the Torylite brigade decide to join him." So basically the Labour rules are asking for a purity cycle regardless of who is at the top. I mean in terms of internal political power it makes sense, but the more power you consolidate at the top the more the potential for instability. | |||
"labour have saked alister campbell after voting libral in euro elections" The Labour Party under JC leadership is fucked up. Used to be labour was a broad church, now its a communist dictatorship, with “the leader”, where purges are rife, and anti semitism is rampant. It’s true, rebels don’t make good leaders, because they don’t know how to build consensus. He is a failed leader, failed to win a major election, failed to win at the council level, failed even in the euro elections. Isn’t it time that labour realise that they have shit leader. If anyone needed to be expelled from that party it should be him. | |||
"The thing is all political parties have similar rules and rightly so. However I think a better approach would have to act the way the Conservatives have acted with Heseltine. "With regret" a suspension and a clear message that, when all this is over, hopefully it can be put behind everyone. " The Conservatives are not much better and have also acted with double standards. Ann Widdecombe gives public support to the Brexit party and is quickly kicked out of the Conservative party and has her membership removed. Heseltine has repeatedly defied the Tory whip and said he publicly supported the Lib Dems before Thursdays vote and he just gets slapped on the wrist and suspended. Both the Labour party and the Conservative party are rotten to the core, and the sooner their destruction comes about the better. | |||
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"All political parties have similar rules. Heseltine just got kicked out of the Tory party for exactly the same thing, and I haven't noticed anyone bleating about dictatorships. It's got absolutely nothing to do with JC and everything to do with the NEC. This is another example of the Blairites wanting confirmation that they are somehow above the rules that apply to the rest of the plebs, and I'm glad that for once they are being told that the rules do actually apply to them." Heseltine was suspended, not kicked out. If Labour want to win and advance a socialist agenda then they need a broad church of left and centrist policies - without this they become irrelevant and new centrist parties will form or adapt to absorb disenchanted Labour and Conservative voters..., notice this happenning already? | |||
"All political parties have similar rules. Heseltine just got kicked out of the Tory party for exactly the same thing, and I haven't noticed anyone bleating about dictatorships. It's got absolutely nothing to do with JC and everything to do with the NEC. This is another example of the Blairites wanting confirmation that they are somehow above the rules that apply to the rest of the plebs, and I'm glad that for once they are being told that the rules do actually apply to them. Heseltine was suspended, not kicked out. If Labour want to win and advance a socialist agenda then they need a broad church of left and centrist policies - without this they become irrelevant and new centrist parties will form or adapt to absorb disenchanted Labour and Conservative voters..., notice this happenning already?" Labour continues to lead the polls, by the way. Labour definitely does not need a party whereby certain members can break the rules because they feel they are too important for them to apply to them, especially when it comes to publicly supporting other political parties. | |||
"All political parties have similar rules. Heseltine just got kicked out of the Tory party for exactly the same thing, and I haven't noticed anyone bleating about dictatorships. It's got absolutely nothing to do with JC and everything to do with the NEC. This is another example of the Blairites wanting confirmation that they are somehow above the rules that apply to the rest of the plebs, and I'm glad that for once they are being told that the rules do actually apply to them. Heseltine was suspended, not kicked out. If Labour want to win and advance a socialist agenda then they need a broad church of left and centrist policies - without this they become irrelevant and new centrist parties will form or adapt to absorb disenchanted Labour and Conservative voters..., notice this happenning already?" I think that you are absolutely correct. A rebranded Lib Dem / Change UK Centre Party with a fresh sprinkling of centrist Conservative and Labour MP's will do well amongst the silent majority. As a natural Conservative voter by nature - I am horrified at the direction that the Party has taken and indeed its current trajectory. I did previously also vote for Labour 9twice) but the direction that Labour is now going is also alienating lots of its traditional voters. The future is a centre ground party that is socially aware and will deliver a capitalist agenda that benefits the many, not the few. Taxes have to rise and money has to be spent in the Midlands and the North. Such a centrist party will need to forge alliances in Europe and beyond and look to encourage investment into the forgotten regions of the UK. They must be strong enough to make the argument that the issues that caused so many people to vote for Brexit are not going to be answered by Brexit - in fact, they will be made worse. | |||
"They must be strong enough to make the argument that the issues that caused so many people to vote for Brexit are not going to be answered by Brexit - in fact, they will be made worse." Let them have their Brexit, they will reap what they have sown, hopefully by the bucket load. | |||
"All political parties have similar rules. Heseltine just got kicked out of the Tory party for exactly the same thing, and I haven't noticed anyone bleating about dictatorships. It's got absolutely nothing to do with JC and everything to do with the NEC. This is another example of the Blairites wanting confirmation that they are somehow above the rules that apply to the rest of the plebs, and I'm glad that for once they are being told that the rules do actually apply to them. Heseltine was suspended, not kicked out. If Labour want to win and advance a socialist agenda then they need a broad church of left and centrist policies - without this they become irrelevant and new centrist parties will form or adapt to absorb disenchanted Labour and Conservative voters..., notice this happenning already? Labour continues to lead the polls, by the way. Labour definitely does not need a party whereby certain members can break the rules because they feel they are too important for them to apply to them, especially when it comes to publicly supporting other political parties. " The Labour "lead" is like the swinging Brexit / Leave "lead". It is minor and it is an appallingly small lead considering that they have been opposing the worst PM and Government in living memory. This new investigation into the Labour is going to damage it. As is Corbyns speech today that contradicts what Abbot, Starmer and Watson have said over the last few days. He is not a Leader, there is insufficient dynamism, drive and determination to oppose. Brexit is going hard right and brutally damaging and he is still sitting on the fence. His job is to stand up for ordinary working people and tell them the truth - with conviction. | |||
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"All political parties have similar rules. Heseltine just got kicked out of the Tory party for exactly the same thing, and I haven't noticed anyone bleating about dictatorships. It's got absolutely nothing to do with JC and everything to do with the NEC. This is another example of the Blairites wanting confirmation that they are somehow above the rules that apply to the rest of the plebs, and I'm glad that for once they are being told that the rules do actually apply to them. Heseltine was suspended, not kicked out. If Labour want to win and advance a socialist agenda then they need a broad church of left and centrist policies - without this they become irrelevant and new centrist parties will form or adapt to absorb disenchanted Labour and Conservative voters..., notice this happenning already? Labour continues to lead the polls, by the way. Labour definitely does not need a party whereby certain members can break the rules because they feel they are too important for them to apply to them, especially when it comes to publicly supporting other political parties. The Labour "lead" is like the swinging Brexit / Leave "lead". It is minor and it is an appallingly small lead considering that they have been opposing the worst PM and Government in living memory. This new investigation into the Labour is going to damage it. As is Corbyns speech today that contradicts what Abbot, Starmer and Watson have said over the last few days. He is not a Leader, there is insufficient dynamism, drive and determination to oppose. Brexit is going hard right and brutally damaging and he is still sitting on the fence. His job is to stand up for ordinary working people and tell them the truth - with conviction. " The reason that the Labour lead is small is that politics are polarised. Ie, nobody is voting for the centrist parties. In 2017, Labour commanded a vote share that has only been beaten (slightly) by Blair in 1997. The news at that election was the utter collapse of the centre. Voters rejected the Lib Dems in the same way they had rejected New Labour. Look at ChangeUK. Can't command an opinion poll vote share of more than 5%. I'll repeat this: Every "third way" social Democrat party who failed to shift to the left has been annihilated all across Europe. The British Labour party still commands a lead in the polls and has the largest membership of any political party in the entire of Europe. I think that the failing arrogance of ChangeUK was a total inability to understand this. They thought that they could walk away from Labour and the Tories, wear nice suits, have some soundbites but no actual policies and people would vote for them in droves. They were clearly wrong, hence Heidi Allen admitting that the party will probably cease to exist soon. | |||
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"All political parties have similar rules. Heseltine just got kicked out of the Tory party for exactly the same thing, and I haven't noticed anyone bleating about dictatorships. It's got absolutely nothing to do with JC and everything to do with the NEC. This is another example of the Blairites wanting confirmation that they are somehow above the rules that apply to the rest of the plebs, and I'm glad that for once they are being told that the rules do actually apply to them. Heseltine was suspended, not kicked out. If Labour want to win and advance a socialist agenda then they need a broad church of left and centrist policies - without this they become irrelevant and new centrist parties will form or adapt to absorb disenchanted Labour and Conservative voters..., notice this happenning already?" You can't advance a socialist agenda when an entire tranche of your party wants a right wing agenda. Blairites are only "centrist" because politics in this country has shifted so far to the right in the past 40 years. Essentially they are a Thatcherite group. I would say that Corbynite Labour are actually much closer to the standard definition of "centrist". They seem to want a mixed economy with some state owned infrastructure, some increases in taxation (especially of corporations), but only in line with what was the norm until very recently. They seem committed to democratization (Tony Blair had removed a lot of democratic elements from the party to allow him to parachute his favourites into safe seats - the return of control to constituency parties is why you saw so many votes of no confidence). | |||
"But still we have a Labour Party that should be a shoe in given the shambles of the Tory Party and with JC at the helm too many of the centre will not vote for them. JC is not a Leader, he never has been and never will be. To be honest with you I’d rather John McDonnell was leading as he has abit of fire in his belly "The problem is that he was voted for overwhelmingly by the members, twice - after the PLP complained and made them re-run the vote. Since Labour is a democratic party, if others want to lead, they need to actually appeal to the members. You don't appeal to your members by voting Lib Dem | |||
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"Also, it's not a shoe in, because many MPs can't accept that Blairism is dead. Loads of voters lost faith in Labour under Blair/Brown. I can think of any number of my contemporaries who don't vote because they would never vote Tory, but feel that Blair betrayed our entire generation. These are a mix of blue collar workers and professionals. All 40 and under. There's a vast base of support if you engaged 40 and under voters, and actually, that's what Corbyn was starting to do. The swing voters are dying out. They are 55+ and only matter in certain seats. Even in those seats, they are outnumbered by the under 40s. If Labour wants to build, it needs to build its grassroots by engaging in communities like it used to. A good step towards that was local parties getting rid of MPs who didn't engage with the local community." A first step would be having a Leader that grew a pair. Corbyn is a blancmange, although he was elected by the party, they didn’t realise how useless and how much of a fence sitter he actually was... | |||
"Also, it's not a shoe in, because many MPs can't accept that Blairism is dead. Loads of voters lost faith in Labour under Blair/Brown. I can think of any number of my contemporaries who don't vote because they would never vote Tory, but feel that Blair betrayed our entire generation. These are a mix of blue collar workers and professionals. All 40 and under. There's a vast base of support if you engaged 40 and under voters, and actually, that's what Corbyn was starting to do. The swing voters are dying out. They are 55+ and only matter in certain seats. Even in those seats, they are outnumbered by the under 40s. If Labour wants to build, it needs to build its grassroots by engaging in communities like it used to. A good step towards that was local parties getting rid of MPs who didn't engage with the local community." I think you are believing the hype as much as we accuse Brexiters of believing Farage's hype. Take a step back and really look around. Most people in this country do not trust the extremes. Most people in this country want to get on in life and they are also socially aware. You heavily criticise Tony Blair but he was the most successful post-war Prime Minister that this country has had (albeit some might argue that accolade goes to Thatcher). I am in total agreement personally with a higher taxed society, but Corbyn has too much historical baggage attached to him and too little in the way of Leadership qualities. I would like to see a society where the tax take is greater at the top end and I would like to see large scale investments into the Midlands and the North. That might make you think that I have socialist leanings, but I also realise that companies and people have to be motivated to be successful and make a better life for themselves. | |||
"Also, it's not a shoe in, because many MPs can't accept that Blairism is dead. Loads of voters lost faith in Labour under Blair/Brown. I can think of any number of my contemporaries who don't vote because they would never vote Tory, but feel that Blair betrayed our entire generation. These are a mix of blue collar workers and professionals. All 40 and under. There's a vast base of support if you engaged 40 and under voters, and actually, that's what Corbyn was starting to do. The swing voters are dying out. They are 55+ and only matter in certain seats. Even in those seats, they are outnumbered by the under 40s. If Labour wants to build, it needs to build its grassroots by engaging in communities like it used to. A good step towards that was local parties getting rid of MPs who didn't engage with the local community. I think you are believing the hype as much as we accuse Brexiters of believing Farage's hype. Take a step back and really look around. Most people in this country do not trust the extremes. Most people in this country want to get on in life and they are also socially aware. You heavily criticise Tony Blair but he was the most successful post-war Prime Minister that this country has had (albeit some might argue that accolade goes to Thatcher). I am in total agreement personally with a higher taxed society, but Corbyn has too much historical baggage attached to him and too little in the way of Leadership qualities. I would like to see a society where the tax take is greater at the top end and I would like to see large scale investments into the Midlands and the North. That might make you think that I have socialist leanings, but I also realise that companies and people have to be motivated to be successful and make a better life for themselves. " What extremes? Read Labour's manifesto. It's more right wing than Tory manifestos of the 70s. It had something like a 95% approval rating with the public. So; we know their policies are extremely popular, which answers your question about their appeal. It just shows you how powerful the press is, continually managing to dissuade people from voting for policies that they like. Just look at the volume of smears against Corbyn, and their baffling variety, from ineffectual hippy to cunning Soviet spy. From spineless pacifist to IRA supporter. You'll notice many of the smears are mutually exclusive.... | |||
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"this was targetted and spiteful and they deserve the backlash they are getting.... what the "cult of corbyn" and his followers seem not to understand, that instead of labour being seen as a "broad church of opinions" then looks "narrow minded" and vendictive... they are alienating the very people they will have to try and win over if they are going to win the next election..... why should people go back to labour for the policy they obviously didn't like hasn't or doesn't change..... Clearly you are not a member of the Labour Party. On joining you declare you support the Labour Party and are not a member of, or support any other political party. By publicly stating you voted for another party (no matter the reason) you clearly lend them your support and no longer support the Labour Party. Therefore he and a number of other Blairites have fallen foul of Labour Party rules and should be removed from the party. The real irony is while they wielded power in the party they used the very same rule to remove anyone suspected of being a member or Militant supporter even though every Militant member was a fully committed Labour member and would never have voted for any other party. Anyway like I said about May, good riddance to bad rubbish. But in this case I hope the rest of the Torylite brigade decide to join him." Tosh #expelmetoo | |||
"JC is Leader in name only, a half competent Satsuma would have more drive and Leadership qualities than he has. For 3 years he has let the Tory’s screw up without taking them to task. He has missed his chance and should be replaced, along with Ian Lavery." And how should he be replaced? Like it or not, "purges" are fabrications of the press. To be replaced, he would have to be voted for by the party membership in a leadership contest. Which is as it should be. | |||
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"Also, he continually took the Tories to task. Compare and contrast to Tom Watson who has actually boasted that he voted to support the Tories in the commons. " You must have a very recent overview of UK politics if you think that Corbyn took the Tories to task. His biggest problem is that he is unable to land knockout blows. He scores a hit but does not sense the winning run he is on and he changes tack. I have listened to (before we could watch) and I have watched PMQ's for decades and the exchanges between May and Corbyn have been the most ineffective exchanges between Leaders that I have ever heard. Even Guardian commentators got frustrated when he seemingly had May over a barrel on countless occasions and just failed to land the headline blows. If he could not do that against the worst PM in living memory - what hope is there against anyone half competent? You suggest that his (labours) problems are because the electorate have become polarised - why do you think that is and whose fault is it? It is down to political parties to engage the electorate and the man steering the Party is its Leader. The electorate have become polarised because Corbyn has allowed, and indeed enabled the Labour vote to fracture because of either his own personal ideology - or his incompetence. Either way - he personally and the Labour party generally have to take on part responsibility for the polarisation. | |||
"All political parties have similar rules. Heseltine just got kicked out of the Tory party for exactly the same thing, and I haven't noticed anyone bleating about dictatorships. It's got absolutely nothing to do with JC and everything to do with the NEC. This is another example of the Blairites wanting confirmation that they are somehow above the rules that apply to the rest of the plebs, and I'm glad that for once they are being told that the rules do actually apply to them. Heseltine was suspended, not kicked out. If Labour want to win and advance a socialist agenda then they need a broad church of left and centrist policies - without this they become irrelevant and new centrist parties will form or adapt to absorb disenchanted Labour and Conservative voters..., notice this happenning already? Labour continues to lead the polls, by the way. Labour definitely does not need a party whereby certain members can break the rules because they feel they are too important for them to apply to them, especially when it comes to publicly supporting other political parties. The Labour "lead" is like the swinging Brexit / Leave "lead". It is minor and it is an appallingly small lead considering that they have been opposing the worst PM and Government in living memory. This new investigation into the Labour is going to damage it. As is Corbyns speech today that contradicts what Abbot, Starmer and Watson have said over the last few days. He is not a Leader, there is insufficient dynamism, drive and determination to oppose. Brexit is going hard right and brutally damaging and he is still sitting on the fence. His job is to stand up for ordinary working people and tell them the truth - with conviction. The reason that the Labour lead is small is that politics are polarised. Ie, nobody is voting for the centrist parties. In 2017, Labour commanded a vote share that has only been beaten (slightly) by Blair in 1997. The news at that election was the utter collapse of the centre. Voters rejected the Lib Dems in the same way they had rejected New Labour. Look at ChangeUK. Can't command an opinion poll vote share of more than 5%. I'll repeat this: Every "third way" social Democrat party who failed to shift to the left has been annihilated all across Europe. The British Labour party still commands a lead in the polls and has the largest membership of any political party in the entire of Europe. I think that the failing arrogance of ChangeUK was a total inability to understand this. They thought that they could walk away from Labour and the Tories, wear nice suits, have some soundbites but no actual policies and people would vote for them in droves. They were clearly wrong, hence Heidi Allen admitting that the party will probably cease to exist soon." I find it quite cheering that both the Labour party and the Conservatives seem to believe that their salvation lies in the extremes of both. As both of them disappear over the horizon of pragmatic, sensible politics the ground becomes ever more fertile for true liberals. Through the darkness of BREXIT, populism, nationalism and intolerance a light is starting to shine and a genuine hope for the future is beginning to emerge. The more the Tories and Labour purge their parties the more talent there is heading to the centre. Bring it on. The future's bright, the future's orange (and, with a bit of Green thrown in to, it's still yellow).  | |||
"Also, it's not a shoe in, because many MPs can't accept that Blairism is dead. Loads of voters lost faith in Labour under Blair/Brown. I can think of any number of my contemporaries who don't vote because they would never vote Tory, but feel that Blair betrayed our entire generation. These are a mix of blue collar workers and professionals. All 40 and under. There's a vast base of support if you engaged 40 and under voters, and actually, that's what Corbyn was starting to do. The swing voters are dying out. They are 55+ and only matter in certain seats. Even in those seats, they are outnumbered by the under 40s. If Labour wants to build, it needs to build its grassroots by engaging in communities like it used to. A good step towards that was local parties getting rid of MPs who didn't engage with the local community. I think you are believing the hype as much as we accuse Brexiters of believing Farage's hype. Take a step back and really look around. Most people in this country do not trust the extremes. Most people in this country want to get on in life and they are also socially aware. You heavily criticise Tony Blair but he was the most successful post-war Prime Minister that this country has had (albeit some might argue that accolade goes to Thatcher). I am in total agreement personally with a higher taxed society, but Corbyn has too much historical baggage attached to him and too little in the way of Leadership qualities. I would like to see a society where the tax take is greater at the top end and I would like to see large scale investments into the Midlands and the North. That might make you think that I have socialist leanings, but I also realise that companies and people have to be motivated to be successful and make a better life for themselves. What extremes? Read Labour's manifesto. It's more right wing than Tory manifestos of the 70s. It had something like a 95% approval rating with the public. So; we know their policies are extremely popular, which answers your question about their appeal. It just shows you how powerful the press is, continually managing to dissuade people from voting for policies that they like. Just look at the volume of smears against Corbyn, and their baffling variety, from ineffectual hippy to cunning Soviet spy. From spineless pacifist to IRA supporter. You'll notice many of the smears are mutually exclusive...." Personally I'd go with "ineffectual hippy" and "spineless pacifist" (although I wouldn't have used spineless myself). I've never believed he could be a spy for anyone and, on the IRA thing, I've always thought someone had to start talking to them sometime so why not him. | |||
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"anyway..... it the rumour going round is true.... it looks as is the yougov poll coming out tonight for potential voting intentions is remotely true... it going to make for really interesting discussion.... and panic...... "Do tell..... | |||
"anyway..... it the rumour going round is true.... it looks as is the yougov poll coming out tonight for potential voting intentions is remotely true... it going to make for really interesting discussion.... and panic......
Do tell....."our friend "guido fawkes" is "suggesting" that the "times/yougov poll" coming out tonight will have the following.... Lib Dems 24% Brexit Party 22% Labour 19% Conservatives 19% so.... who do you think panics most... labour or the tories | |||
"anyway..... it the rumour going round is true.... it looks as is the yougov poll coming out tonight for potential voting intentions is remotely true... it going to make for really interesting discussion.... and panic......
Do tell.....
our friend "guido fawkes" is "suggesting" that the "times/yougov poll" coming out tonight will have the following....
Lib Dems 24%
Brexit Party 22%
Labour 19%
Conservatives 19%
so.... who do you think panics most... labour or the tories"Not sure how that translates into seats in 2022.....but it will mean that the Tories and Labour are unlikely to vote on a shortened term for a while. Incidentally, when the SDP was formed in the early 80's, it polled very highly but failed to secure many seats. | |||
"anyway..... it the rumour going round is true.... it looks as is the yougov poll coming out tonight for potential voting intentions is remotely true... it going to make for really interesting discussion.... and panic......
Do tell.....
our friend "guido fawkes" is "suggesting" that the "times/yougov poll" coming out tonight will have the following....
Lib Dems 24%
Brexit Party 22%
Labour 19%
Conservatives 19%
so.... who do you think panics most... labour or the tories
Not sure how that translates into seats in 2022.....but it will mean that the Tories and Labour are unlikely to vote on a shortened term for a while.
Incidentally, when the SDP was formed in the early 80's, it polled very highly but failed to secure many seats."it means that probably lib dems would pick off labour seats in london and surrounding, and take seats of the tories in a lot of the south/south west...... also if that is the case and a i was labour/tory mp in a university town....lets say oxford.. or sheffield, norwich, manchester/liverpool outskirts.. even newcastle, basically high "remain" places...... they would be in a lot of trouble | |||
"anyway..... it the rumour going round is true.... it looks as is the yougov poll coming out tonight for potential voting intentions is remotely true... it going to make for really interesting discussion.... and panic......
Do tell.....
our friend "guido fawkes" is "suggesting" that the "times/yougov poll" coming out tonight will have the following....
Lib Dems 24%
Brexit Party 22%
Labour 19%
Conservatives 19%
so.... who do you think panics most... labour or the tories
Not sure how that translates into seats in 2022.....but it will mean that the Tories and Labour are unlikely to vote on a shortened term for a while.
Incidentally, when the SDP was formed in the early 80's, it polled very highly but failed to secure many seats.
it means that probably lib dems would pick off labour seats in london and surrounding, and take seats of the tories in a lot of the south/south west......
also if that is the case and a i was labour/tory mp in a university town....lets say oxford.. or sheffield, norwich, manchester/liverpool outskirts.. even newcastle, basically high "remain" places...... they would be in a lot of trouble"That didn't quite play out that way in the European elections last week though did it. Yes the Lib dems took London, but the vast majority of constituency areas in the South West and the South East were taken by the Brexit party. There was a graph shown on the Peston show on Itv last night which translated the European election results into a FPTP General election result and the Brexit party took a massive 414 constituency seats which would give them a huge majority in the House of Commons. You also ignore the Midlands and the North and Wales, which if Labour swing over to backing a 2nd referendum (which they are looking increasingly likely to do), it will spell the end of Labour in those areas, and will most likely lead to a Brexit party whitewash in the Midlands, North and Wales. | |||
"anyway..... it the rumour going round is true.... it looks as is the yougov poll coming out tonight for potential voting intentions is remotely true... it going to make for really interesting discussion.... and panic......
Do tell.....
our friend "guido fawkes" is "suggesting" that the "times/yougov poll" coming out tonight will have the following....
Lib Dems 24%
Brexit Party 22%
Labour 19%
Conservatives 19%
so.... who do you think panics most... labour or the tories
Not sure how that translates into seats in 2022.....but it will mean that the Tories and Labour are unlikely to vote on a shortened term for a while.
Incidentally, when the SDP was formed in the early 80's, it polled very highly but failed to secure many seats.
it means that probably lib dems would pick off labour seats in london and surrounding, and take seats of the tories in a lot of the south/south west......
also if that is the case and a i was labour/tory mp in a university town....lets say oxford.. or sheffield, norwich, manchester/liverpool outskirts.. even newcastle, basically high "remain" places...... they would be in a lot of trouble
That didn't quite play out that way in the European elections last week though did it. Yes the Lib dems took London, but the vast majority of constituency areas in the South West and the South East were taken by the Brexit party. There was a graph shown on the Peston show on Itv last night which translated the European election results into a FPTP General election result and the Brexit party took a massive 414 constituency seats which would give them a huge majority in the House of Commons.
You also ignore the Midlands and the North and Wales, which if Labour swing over to backing a 2nd referendum (which they are looking increasingly likely to do), it will spell the end of Labour in those areas, and will most likely lead to a Brexit party whitewash in the Midlands, North and Wales. "god bless you centy...... why you still hiding behind the new name, we all know its you!!!! if the brexit party splits the conservative party vote.... and the lib dems are seen as the "remain party"... the lib dems will win seats like they did against the tories in the south west in the local elections it would be funny if the brexit party saw the demise of jacob rees mogg for example by letting in the lib dems.....
or esther mcveys seat of tatton......
the lib dems so well in the university towns and the big northern suburbs.... which is why i mentioned those places.... | |||
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"anyway..... it the rumour going round is true.... it looks as is the yougov poll coming out tonight for potential voting intentions is remotely true... it going to make for really interesting discussion.... and panic......
Do tell.....
our friend "guido fawkes" is "suggesting" that the "times/yougov poll" coming out tonight will have the following....
Lib Dems 24%
Brexit Party 22%
Labour 19%
Conservatives 19%
so.... who do you think panics most... labour or the tories
Not sure how that translates into seats in 2022.....but it will mean that the Tories and Labour are unlikely to vote on a shortened term for a while.
Incidentally, when the SDP was formed in the early 80's, it polled very highly but failed to secure many seats.
it means that probably lib dems would pick off labour seats in london and surrounding, and take seats of the tories in a lot of the south/south west......
also if that is the case and a i was labour/tory mp in a university town....lets say oxford.. or sheffield, norwich, manchester/liverpool outskirts.. even newcastle, basically high "remain" places...... they would be in a lot of trouble
That didn't quite play out that way in the European elections last week though did it. Yes the Lib dems took London, but the vast majority of constituency areas in the South West and the South East were taken by the Brexit party. There was a graph shown on the Peston show on Itv last night which translated the European election results into a FPTP General election result and the Brexit party took a massive 414 constituency seats which would give them a huge majority in the House of Commons.
You also ignore the Midlands and the North and Wales, which if Labour swing over to backing a 2nd referendum (which they are looking increasingly likely to do), it will spell the end of Labour in those areas, and will most likely lead to a Brexit party whitewash in the Midlands, North and Wales.
god bless you centy...... why you still hiding behind the new name, we all know its you!!!!
if the brexit party splits the conservative party vote.... and the lib dems are seen as the "remain party"... the lib dems will win seats like they did against the tories in the south west in the local elections
it would be funny if the brexit party saw the demise of jacob rees mogg for example by letting in the lib dems.....
or esther mcveys seat of tatton......
the lib dems so well in the university towns and the big northern suburbs.... which is why i mentioned those places.... "I'd suggest you have a look at the finer detail of the voting percentages in the constituencies of the Midlands and the North of England. In many of those constituencies the Brexit party got over 50% of the vote, so it doesn't matter what kind of electoral pact you do or how you try to add up percentages of other parties, you still fall short of the 50% mark. | |||
"anyway..... it the rumour going round is true.... it looks as is the yougov poll coming out tonight for potential voting intentions is remotely true... it going to make for really interesting discussion.... and panic......
Do tell.....
our friend "guido fawkes" is "suggesting" that the "times/yougov poll" coming out tonight will have the following....
Lib Dems 24%
Brexit Party 22%
Labour 19%
Conservatives 19%
so.... who do you think panics most... labour or the tories
Not sure how that translates into seats in 2022.....but it will mean that the Tories and Labour are unlikely to vote on a shortened term for a while.
Incidentally, when the SDP was formed in the early 80's, it polled very highly but failed to secure many seats.
it means that probably lib dems would pick off labour seats in london and surrounding, and take seats of the tories in a lot of the south/south west......
also if that is the case and a i was labour/tory mp in a university town....lets say oxford.. or sheffield, norwich, manchester/liverpool outskirts.. even newcastle, basically high "remain" places...... they would be in a lot of trouble
That didn't quite play out that way in the European elections last week though did it. Yes the Lib dems took London, but the vast majority of constituency areas in the South West and the South East were taken by the Brexit party. There was a graph shown on the Peston show on Itv last night which translated the European election results into a FPTP General election result and the Brexit party took a massive 414 constituency seats which would give them a huge majority in the House of Commons.
You also ignore the Midlands and the North and Wales, which if Labour swing over to backing a 2nd referendum (which they are looking increasingly likely to do), it will spell the end of Labour in those areas, and will most likely lead to a Brexit party whitewash in the Midlands, North and Wales.
god bless you centy...... why you still hiding behind the new name, we all know its you!!!!
if the brexit party splits the conservative party vote.... and the lib dems are seen as the "remain party"... the lib dems will win seats like they did against the tories in the south west in the local elections
it would be funny if the brexit party saw the demise of jacob rees mogg for example by letting in the lib dems.....
or esther mcveys seat of tatton......
the lib dems so well in the university towns and the big northern suburbs.... which is why i mentioned those places.... "You also seem to forget the Brexit party wasn't even standing for election in the local elections, so the Lib dems had a free run! As for big northern cities and Suburbs, you mean places like Leeds, Sunderland, and Big Midlands cities and suburbs like Wolverhampton, those places voted for the Brexit party in the European elections. | |||
"Sounds like payback for the New Labour years. i doubt he was the only one, far from it. If Labour is serious about winning the election, about emulating New Labour, it needs to reach out to people, not retreat into the mirror. It does not matter if you are Conservative Party die-hards, elections are not won by your hard-core - they are won by appealing to 200,000 floating voters who tip the result in marginals. This kinda thing is more likely to deter them than encourage them. " Very true  | |||
" As for big northern cities and Suburbs, you mean places like Leeds, Sunderland, and Big Midlands cities and suburbs like Wolverhampton, those places voted for the Brexit party in the European elections. " leeds... yes, the lib dems had a few mps up till a few years ago (leeds north west i think covers the big student area of leeds) sunderland.... nope.... never had a presence Wolverhampton.... nope.... never had a presence so if you want seats for example that would be lib dem targets in the north ... Sheffield Hallam.... which is the bit right around the university in the middle of sheffield... suburbs... cheadle, hazel grove, southport .... possibly berwick upon t if they were having a really good night...... i could name a few if the tory vote crashed and the brexit party split the vote in two... but they are the most reasonable | |||
"the key words in the labour party policy apparently is "to influence people to vote for another party" Campbell told people how he was voted AFTER the polls had closed and the results were coming in.... so unless the party position is that time travel exists, then the above is nonsense so if voting against your own party is grounds for instant dismissal... then there are 30 odd labour mp who went against the 3 line whip vote on the 2nd referendum process.. also jemery corbyn himself had flouted these rules both in parliament... and congratulation then respect party person george galloway for a bradford by election win against the then labour party.... they put this thru to steer people away from the anti-semitism stuff and its blown up in their faces....." When the leader of the party is a confirmed Hamas and Hezbollah supporter is it any wonder that anti-semitism is rife within the party. | |||
"All political parties have similar rules. Heseltine just got kicked out of the Tory party for exactly the same thing, and I haven't noticed anyone bleating about dictatorships. It's got absolutely nothing to do with JC and everything to do with the NEC. This is another example of the Blairites wanting confirmation that they are somehow above the rules that apply to the rest of the plebs, and I'm glad that for once they are being told that the rules do actually apply to them. Heseltine was suspended, not kicked out. If Labour want to win and advance a socialist agenda then they need a broad church of left and centrist policies - without this they become irrelevant and new centrist parties will form or adapt to absorb disenchanted Labour and Conservative voters..., notice this happenning already? Labour continues to lead the polls, by the way. Labour definitely does not need a party whereby certain members can break the rules because they feel they are too important for them to apply to them, especially when it comes to publicly supporting other political parties. The Labour "lead" is like the swinging Brexit / Leave "lead". It is minor and it is an appallingly small lead considering that they have been opposing the worst PM and Government in living memory. This new investigation into the Labour is going to damage it. As is Corbyns speech today that contradicts what Abbot, Starmer and Watson have said over the last few days. He is not a Leader, there is insufficient dynamism, drive and determination to oppose. Brexit is going hard right and brutally damaging and he is still sitting on the fence. His job is to stand up for ordinary working people and tell them the truth - with conviction. The reason that the Labour lead is small is that politics are polarised. Ie, nobody is voting for the centrist parties. In 2017, Labour commanded a vote share that has only been beaten (slightly) by Blair in 1997. The news at that election was the utter collapse of the centre. Voters rejected the Lib Dems in the same way they had rejected New Labour. Look at ChangeUK. Can't command an opinion poll vote share of more than 5%. I'll repeat this: Every "third way" social Democrat party who failed to shift to the left has been annihilated all across Europe. The British Labour party still commands a lead in the polls and has the largest membership of any political party in the entire of Europe. I think that the failing arrogance of ChangeUK was a total inability to understand this. They thought that they could walk away from Labour and the Tories, wear nice suits, have some soundbites but no actual policies and people would vote for them in droves. They were clearly wrong, hence Heidi Allen admitting that the party will probably cease to exist soon. I find it quite cheering that both the Labour party and the Conservatives seem to believe that their salvation lies in the extremes of both. As both of them disappear over the horizon of pragmatic, sensible politics the ground becomes ever more fertile for true liberals. Through the darkness of BREXIT, populism, nationalism and intolerance a light is starting to shine and a genuine hope for the future is beginning to emerge. The more the Tories and Labour purge their parties the more talent there is heading to the centre. Bring it on. The future's bright, the future's orange (and, with a bit of Green thrown in to, it's still yellow). "Again, the Labour manifesto is far from extreme. You seem to have missed the bit about the death of centrism. It's not 1997, we've had a crash since then. The gap between the rich and the poor continues to grow. People are relying on food banks in parts of the country and centrism simply offers more austerity, possibly with the odd diversity policy thrown in. When people have nothing, they vote for change. | |||
" When people have nothing, they vote for change. " So very true. History is littered with examples of societies being convulsed by extreme periods of inequality. This is what frustrates me so much about the Brexit debate. Yes, it was a vote for change. We heard politicians promising to address the "burning injustices" that motivated it. Nothing. Inequality has increased. So, too, has the tension and resentment. Quite a few economists predicting the economic cycle is gearing up for another "financial correction". In other words, a destabilising event that ricochets through markets and society. It is one way to erode the gap between the rich and poor - eradicate their wealth. | |||
" That didn't quite play out that way in the European elections last week though did it. Yes the Lib dems took London, but the vast majority of constituency areas in the South West and the South East were taken by the Brexit party. There was a graph shown on the Peston show on Itv last night which translated the European election results into a FPTP General election result and the Brexit party took a massive 414 constituency seats which would give them a huge majority in the House of Commons. You also ignore the Midlands and the North and Wales, which if Labour swing over to backing a 2nd referendum (which they are looking increasingly likely to do), it will spell the end of Labour in those areas, and will most likely lead to a Brexit party whitewash in the Midlands, North and Wales. " and centy is so not going to like what yougov also say.... Because of the oddities of FPTP..... they went and had a look at the data, and there related it to actual seats... this is what they reckon would happen with the vote shares.... Lib Dems: seats now 12, with that vote share 75 Brexit party: seats now 0.. with that vote share 4 Labour: seats now 262, with that vote share 258 Conservatives: Seats now 317, with that vote share: 235 SNP: seats now 35, with that vote share: 53 basically as were saying... tories get crushed by the snp in scotland... and by the lib dems in the south... p.s Labour would be short of an overall majority by 68....... | |||
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"Question... if Campbell gets kicked out straight away for not voting labour, but willsman only gets suspended for anti Semitic comments The crime of voting Lib Dem must be way more heinous..... Priorities eh! Just leaving that out I am sure jimi will be in with a defence... "It's a stupid fucking question isn't it, Fabio. Campbell openly said that he'd voted lib Dem, in clear breach of the rules. If someone else stood up and openly admitted that they hated Jews, they too would be out of the door instantly. As it is, Willsman is accused of saying that anti Labour agents in the party are working for the Israeli embassy. He's been instantly suspended whilst it's looked into. | |||
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"Where is his evidence of a Jewish conspiracy, for that is what he alleges? He ought to be drummed out pronto. " Did you watch the video? Nobody mentioned a "Jewish conspiracy" - that definitely would be antisemitic. | |||
"Question... if Campbell gets kicked out straight away for not voting labour, but willsman only gets suspended for anti Semitic comments The crime of voting Lib Dem must be way more heinous..... Priorities eh! Just leaving that out I am sure jimi will be in with a defence...
It's a stupid fucking question isn't it, Fabio.
Campbell openly said that he'd voted lib Dem, in clear breach of the rules.
If someone else stood up and openly admitted that they hated Jews, they too would be out of the door instantly.
As it is, Willsman is accused of saying that anti Labour agents in the party are working for the Israeli embassy.
He's been instantly suspended whilst it's looked into.
"I don't think this us quite right.....campaigning against Labour is against the rules of the Labour Party. This vote disclosure was made after the polls had closed. Even the senior law officers of the party have said that this knee jerk reaction of expulsion without due process did not meet the standard for discipline. The point Fabio makes is very sound. When it suits, expulsion even when incorrectly applied can be a very speedy process, but god forbid the same standard be applied to antisemitism in the party and the Labour colours are truly outed. | |||
"Question... if Campbell gets kicked out straight away for not voting labour, but willsman only gets suspended for anti Semitic comments The crime of voting Lib Dem must be way more heinous..... Priorities eh! Just leaving that out I am sure jimi will be in with a defence...
It's a stupid fucking question isn't it, Fabio.
Campbell openly said that he'd voted lib Dem, in clear breach of the rules.
If someone else stood up and openly admitted that they hated Jews, they too would be out of the door instantly.
As it is, Willsman is accused of saying that anti Labour agents in the party are working for the Israeli embassy.
He's been instantly suspended whilst it's looked into.
I don't think this us quite right.....campaigning against Labour is against the rules of the Labour Party. This vote disclosure was made after the polls had closed. Even the senior law officers of the party have said that this knee jerk reaction of expulsion without due process did not meet the standard for discipline.
The point Fabio makes is very sound. When it suits, expulsion even when incorrectly applied can be a very speedy process, but god forbid the same standard be applied to antisemitism in the party and the Labour colours are truly outed."Alistair Campbell knew exactly what he was doing. He literally stood up and announced in the press that he'd broken party rules. There wasn't really a lot to investigate. For example: if someone else had accused him of the same, and he'd denied it, that would warrant a lengthier investigation and would definitely have actually taken some time. | |||
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"I saw it on the telly. He said he was almost certain the Israeli Embassy was behind anti-semitic smears against Jeremy Corbyn. Now, I have no idea what the view of the Israeli Embassy is. But I have seen lots of complaints from elsewhere about Labour members and/or supporters. Put those two things together and it becomes a conspiracy. " You still haven't watched the video then. There's filmed undercover footage of Israeli diplomats meeting with politicians to discuss how they might "bring down" certain other MPs. So, it's not like its fantasy world stuff that's never happened.... | |||
"I saw it on the telly. He said he was almost certain the Israeli Embassy was behind anti-semitic smears against Jeremy Corbyn. Now, I have no idea what the view of the Israeli Embassy is. But I have seen lots of complaints from elsewhere about Labour members and/or supporters. Put those two things together and it becomes a conspiracy. You still haven't watched the video then. There's filmed undercover footage of Israeli diplomats meeting with politicians to discuss how they might "bring down" certain other MPs. So, it's not like its fantasy world stuff that's never happened...." But when the guy says it with no actual evidence but simply his own antisemitic vitriolic outburst.... Tell on what basis that people believe this is some for of international conspiracy? | |||
"I saw it on the telly. He said he was almost certain the Israeli Embassy was behind anti-semitic smears against Jeremy Corbyn. Now, I have no idea what the view of the Israeli Embassy is. But I have seen lots of complaints from elsewhere about Labour members and/or supporters. Put those two things together and it becomes a conspiracy. You still haven't watched the video then. There's filmed undercover footage of Israeli diplomats meeting with politicians to discuss how they might "bring down" certain other MPs. So, it's not like its fantasy world stuff that's never happened.... But when the guy says it with no actual evidence but simply his own antisemitic vitriolic outburst.... Tell on what basis that people believe this is some for of international conspiracy? " Well I imagine that's what the party will be investigating, don't you?
I haven't talked about any international conspiracies, so I can't help you with that. | |||
"All political parties have similar rules. Heseltine just got kicked out of the Tory party for exactly the same thing, and I haven't noticed anyone bleating about dictatorships. It's got absolutely nothing to do with JC and everything to do with the NEC. This is another example of the Blairites wanting confirmation that they are somehow above the rules that apply to the rest of the plebs, and I'm glad that for once they are being told that the rules do actually apply to them. Heseltine was suspended, not kicked out. If Labour want to win and advance a socialist agenda then they need a broad church of left and centrist policies - without this they become irrelevant and new centrist parties will form or adapt to absorb disenchanted Labour and Conservative voters..., notice this happenning already? Labour continues to lead the polls, by the way. Labour definitely does not need a party whereby certain members can break the rules because they feel they are too important for them to apply to them, especially when it comes to publicly supporting other political parties. The Labour "lead" is like the swinging Brexit / Leave "lead". It is minor and it is an appallingly small lead considering that they have been opposing the worst PM and Government in living memory. This new investigation into the Labour is going to damage it. As is Corbyns speech today that contradicts what Abbot, Starmer and Watson have said over the last few days. He is not a Leader, there is insufficient dynamism, drive and determination to oppose. Brexit is going hard right and brutally damaging and he is still sitting on the fence. His job is to stand up for ordinary working people and tell them the truth - with conviction. The reason that the Labour lead is small is that politics are polarised. Ie, nobody is voting for the centrist parties. In 2017, Labour commanded a vote share that has only been beaten (slightly) by Blair in 1997. The news at that election was the utter collapse of the centre. Voters rejected the Lib Dems in the same way they had rejected New Labour. Look at ChangeUK. Can't command an opinion poll vote share of more than 5%. I'll repeat this: Every "third way" social Democrat party who failed to shift to the left has been annihilated all across Europe. The British Labour party still commands a lead in the polls and has the largest membership of any political party in the entire of Europe. I think that the failing arrogance of ChangeUK was a total inability to understand this. They thought that they could walk away from Labour and the Tories, wear nice suits, have some soundbites but no actual policies and people would vote for them in droves. They were clearly wrong, hence Heidi Allen admitting that the party will probably cease to exist soon. I find it quite cheering that both the Labour party and the Conservatives seem to believe that their salvation lies in the extremes of both. As both of them disappear over the horizon of pragmatic, sensible politics the ground becomes ever more fertile for true liberals. Through the darkness of BREXIT, populism, nationalism and intolerance a light is starting to shine and a genuine hope for the future is beginning to emerge. The more the Tories and Labour purge their parties the more talent there is heading to the centre. Bring it on. The future's bright, the future's orange (and, with a bit of Green thrown in to, it's still yellow).
Again, the Labour manifesto is far from extreme.
You seem to have missed the bit about the death of centrism.
It's not 1997, we've had a crash since then. The gap between the rich and the poor continues to grow. People are relying on food banks in parts of the country and centrism simply offers more austerity, possibly with the odd diversity policy thrown in.
When people have nothing, they vote for change. "I think, whether it's towards BREXIT party or the LibDems/Greens, the change most people seem to looking for is change from Tory/Labour duopoly. As for Labour not being, or heading toward, the extreme; any party that has as its main slogan "Goverment for the many, not the few" is clearly saying that they are not willing govern for the whole country and not for certain minorities that they feel are less deserving. A very divisive and quite extreme message. I just wonder how many of these 'few' who Corbyn's Labour party is not willing to govern for happen to prefer to have their day of rest on a Saturday rather than a Sunday. | |||
" That didn't quite play out that way in the European elections last week though did it. Yes the Lib dems took London, but the vast majority of constituency areas in the South West and the South East were taken by the Brexit party. There was a graph shown on the Peston show on Itv last night which translated the European election results into a FPTP General election result and the Brexit party took a massive 414 constituency seats which would give them a huge majority in the House of Commons. You also ignore the Midlands and the North and Wales, which if Labour swing over to backing a 2nd referendum (which they are looking increasingly likely to do), it will spell the end of Labour in those areas, and will most likely lead to a Brexit party whitewash in the Midlands, North and Wales. and centy is so not going to like what yougov also say.... Because of the oddities of FPTP..... they went and had a look at the data, and there related it to actual seats... this is what they reckon would happen with the vote shares.... Lib Dems: seats now 12, with that vote share 75 Brexit party: seats now 0.. with that vote share 4 Labour: seats now 262, with that vote share 258 Conservatives: Seats now 317, with that vote share: 235 SNP: seats now 35, with that vote share: 53 basically as were saying... tories get crushed by the snp in scotland... and by the lib dems in the south... p.s Labour would be short of an overall majority by 68......." and Fabio is so not going to like what Opinium say... Latest poll for Westminster voting intentions in a general election... Brexit party in the lead on 26% Labour on 22% Tories on 17% Lib dems on 16% Greens on 11% Because of the oddities of FPTP....they went and had a look at the data, and there related it to actual seats.... This is what the Electoral Calculus website reckon would happen with the vote shares.... Nigel Farage's Brexit party would take 306 MP's, just 20 seats short of a majority. Conservatives would take 26 seats, so could be looking at a possible Brexit party/Conservative coalition to keep Corbyn out of Downing street. Its in the Guardian so it must be true.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/01/brexit-party-nigel-farage-lead-opinion-poll-conservatives-opinium
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"All political parties have similar rules. Heseltine just got kicked out of the Tory party for exactly the same thing, and I haven't noticed anyone bleating about dictatorships. It's got absolutely nothing to do with JC and everything to do with the NEC. This is another example of the Blairites wanting confirmation that they are somehow above the rules that apply to the rest of the plebs, and I'm glad that for once they are being told that the rules do actually apply to them. Heseltine was suspended, not kicked out. If Labour want to win and advance a socialist agenda then they need a broad church of left and centrist policies - without this they become irrelevant and new centrist parties will form or adapt to absorb disenchanted Labour and Conservative voters..., notice this happenning already? Labour continues to lead the polls, by the way. Labour definitely does not need a party whereby certain members can break the rules because they feel they are too important for them to apply to them, especially when it comes to publicly supporting other political parties. The Labour "lead" is like the swinging Brexit / Leave "lead". It is minor and it is an appallingly small lead considering that they have been opposing the worst PM and Government in living memory. This new investigation into the Labour is going to damage it. As is Corbyns speech today that contradicts what Abbot, Starmer and Watson have said over the last few days. He is not a Leader, there is insufficient dynamism, drive and determination to oppose. Brexit is going hard right and brutally damaging and he is still sitting on the fence. His job is to stand up for ordinary working people and tell them the truth - with conviction. The reason that the Labour lead is small is that politics are polarised. Ie, nobody is voting for the centrist parties. In 2017, Labour commanded a vote share that has only been beaten (slightly) by Blair in 1997. The news at that election was the utter collapse of the centre. Voters rejected the Lib Dems in the same way they had rejected New Labour. Look at ChangeUK. Can't command an opinion poll vote share of more than 5%. I'll repeat this: Every "third way" social Democrat party who failed to shift to the left has been annihilated all across Europe. The British Labour party still commands a lead in the polls and has the largest membership of any political party in the entire of Europe. I think that the failing arrogance of ChangeUK was a total inability to understand this. They thought that they could walk away from Labour and the Tories, wear nice suits, have some soundbites but no actual policies and people would vote for them in droves. They were clearly wrong, hence Heidi Allen admitting that the party will probably cease to exist soon. I find it quite cheering that both the Labour party and the Conservatives seem to believe that their salvation lies in the extremes of both. As both of them disappear over the horizon of pragmatic, sensible politics the ground becomes ever more fertile for true liberals. Through the darkness of BREXIT, populism, nationalism and intolerance a light is starting to shine and a genuine hope for the future is beginning to emerge. The more the Tories and Labour purge their parties the more talent there is heading to the centre. Bring it on. The future's bright, the future's orange (and, with a bit of Green thrown in to, it's still yellow).
Again, the Labour manifesto is far from extreme.
You seem to have missed the bit about the death of centrism.
It's not 1997, we've had a crash since then. The gap between the rich and the poor continues to grow. People are relying on food banks in parts of the country and centrism simply offers more austerity, possibly with the odd diversity policy thrown in.
When people have nothing, they vote for change.
I think, whether it's towards BREXIT party or the LibDems/Greens, the change most people seem to looking for is change from Tory/Labour duopoly. As for Labour not being, or heading toward, the extreme; any party that has as its main slogan "Goverment for the many, not the few" is clearly saying that they are not willing govern for the whole country and not for certain minorities that they feel are less deserving. A very divisive and quite extreme message. I just wonder how many of these 'few' who Corbyn's Labour party is not willing to govern for happen to prefer to have their day of rest on a Saturday rather than a Sunday.
"You honestly think that's what "for the many, not the few" is supposed to mean? To you, Labour are a secret Nazi plot to take over British mainstream politics? Your tinfoil hat is slipping.... | |||
" That didn't quite play out that way in the European elections last week though did it. Yes the Lib dems took London, but the vast majority of constituency areas in the South West and the South East were taken by the Brexit party. There was a graph shown on the Peston show on Itv last night which translated the European election results into a FPTP General election result and the Brexit party took a massive 414 constituency seats which would give them a huge majority in the House of Commons. You also ignore the Midlands and the North and Wales, which if Labour swing over to backing a 2nd referendum (which they are looking increasingly likely to do), it will spell the end of Labour in those areas, and will most likely lead to a Brexit party whitewash in the Midlands, North and Wales. and centy is so not going to like what yougov also say.... Because of the oddities of FPTP..... they went and had a look at the data, and there related it to actual seats... this is what they reckon would happen with the vote shares.... Lib Dems: seats now 12, with that vote share 75 Brexit party: seats now 0.. with that vote share 4 Labour: seats now 262, with that vote share 258 Conservatives: Seats now 317, with that vote share: 235 SNP: seats now 35, with that vote share: 53 basically as were saying... tories get crushed by the snp in scotland... and by the lib dems in the south... p.s Labour would be short of an overall majority by 68....... and Fabio is so not going to like what Opinium say... Latest poll for Westminster voting intentions in a general election... Brexit party in the lead on 26% Labour on 22% Tories on 17% Lib dems on 16% Greens on 11% Because of the oddities of FPTP....they went and had a look at the data, and there related it to actual seats.... This is what the Electoral Calculus website reckon would happen with the vote shares.... Nigel Farage's Brexit party would take 306 MP's, just 20 seats short of a majority. Conservatives would take 26 seats, so could be looking at a possible Brexit party/Conservative coalition to keep Corbyn out of Downing street. Its in the Guardian so it must be true.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/01/brexit-party-nigel-farage-lead-opinion-poll-conservatives-opinium
"As you asked
...and two days ago the polling indicated a LibDem win 24% to 22% Brexit and Con/ Lab 19% each.
https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/31/lib-dems-win-next-general-election-labour-tories-joint-third-9759776/
This was some other newspaper so it must be true
This certainly seems to back-up the European election result where:
"The combined percentage of vote share of the Liberal Democrats (20.3), Green Party (12.1), SNP (3.6), Change UK (3.4) and Plaid Cymru (1) – who all campaigned on a pro-Remain message – equates to 40.4 per cent.
The parties in favour of a hard Brexit – the Brexit Party (31.6) and Ukip (3.3) – won a combined share of 34.9 per cent of the votes."
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/eu-elections-uk-results-leave-remain-brexit-what-tells-us/
However as only 36% of the population cared enough to vote that means both something and nothing.
Essentially the country is evenly split. It has been evenly split since the Referendum when an "overwhelming" 4% margin for Brexit was recorded | |||
" That didn't quite play out that way in the European elections last week though did it. Yes the Lib dems took London, but the vast majority of constituency areas in the South West and the South East were taken by the Brexit party. There was a graph shown on the Peston show on Itv last night which translated the European election results into a FPTP General election result and the Brexit party took a massive 414 constituency seats which would give them a huge majority in the House of Commons. You also ignore the Midlands and the North and Wales, which if Labour swing over to backing a 2nd referendum (which they are looking increasingly likely to do), it will spell the end of Labour in those areas, and will most likely lead to a Brexit party whitewash in the Midlands, North and Wales. and centy is so not going to like what yougov also say.... Because of the oddities of FPTP..... they went and had a look at the data, and there related it to actual seats... this is what they reckon would happen with the vote shares.... Lib Dems: seats now 12, with that vote share 75 Brexit party: seats now 0.. with that vote share 4 Labour: seats now 262, with that vote share 258 Conservatives: Seats now 317, with that vote share: 235 SNP: seats now 35, with that vote share: 53 basically as were saying... tories get crushed by the snp in scotland... and by the lib dems in the south... p.s Labour would be short of an overall majority by 68....... and Fabio is so not going to like what Opinium say... Latest poll for Westminster voting intentions in a general election... Brexit party in the lead on 26% Labour on 22% Tories on 17% Lib dems on 16% Greens on 11% Because of the oddities of FPTP....they went and had a look at the data, and there related it to actual seats.... This is what the Electoral Calculus website reckon would happen with the vote shares.... Nigel Farage's Brexit party would take 306 MP's, just 20 seats short of a majority. Conservatives would take 26 seats, so could be looking at a possible Brexit party/Conservative coalition to keep Corbyn out of Downing street. Its in the Guardian so it must be true.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/01/brexit-party-nigel-farage-lead-opinion-poll-conservatives-opinium
As you asked
...and two days ago the polling indicated a LibDem win 24% to 22% Brexit and Con/ Lab 19% each.
https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/31/lib-dems-win-next-general-election-labour-tories-joint-third-9759776/
This was some other newspaper so it must be true
This certainly seems to back-up the European election result where:
"The combined percentage of vote share of the Liberal Democrats (20.3), Green Party (12.1), SNP (3.6), Change UK (3.4) and Plaid Cymru (1) – who all campaigned on a pro-Remain message – equates to 40.4 per cent.
The parties in favour of a hard Brexit – the Brexit Party (31.6) and Ukip (3.3) – won a combined share of 34.9 per cent of the votes."
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/eu-elections-uk-results-leave-remain-brexit-what-tells-us/
However as only 36% of the population cared enough to vote that means both something and nothing.
Essentially the country is evenly split. It has been evenly split since the Referendum when an "overwhelming" 4% margin for Brexit was recorded "....and if you add up the points tally of Arsenal, Chelsea and Tottenham in the League, then London won the Premier League. Funny that the Premier League trophy is sitting pretty in Manchester City's display cabinet though (also funny that Manchester City's colours are the same as the Brexit party).
As for the Yougov poll that you cited in the Metro, they tried to hide the Brexit party under "other" in the poll. So you wouldn't have even seen the Brexit party as an option unless you clicked on "other" first. Shoddy and deceptive stuff from Yougov after the Brexit party just won the European elections with a clear majority returning 29 MEP's.
Also Opinium were much more accurate in their polling with regard to the EU referendum result in 2016, coming closer to the final figure on the day than Yougov did, so on previous track records Opinium seem to be the more reliable pollsters. | |||
" That didn't quite play out that way in the European elections last week though did it. Yes the Lib dems took London, but the vast majority of constituency areas in the South West and the South East were taken by the Brexit party. There was a graph shown on the Peston show on Itv last night which translated the European election results into a FPTP General election result and the Brexit party took a massive 414 constituency seats which would give them a huge majority in the House of Commons. You also ignore the Midlands and the North and Wales, which if Labour swing over to backing a 2nd referendum (which they are looking increasingly likely to do), it will spell the end of Labour in those areas, and will most likely lead to a Brexit party whitewash in the Midlands, North and Wales. and centy is so not going to like what yougov also say.... Because of the oddities of FPTP..... they went and had a look at the data, and there related it to actual seats... this is what they reckon would happen with the vote shares.... Lib Dems: seats now 12, with that vote share 75 Brexit party: seats now 0.. with that vote share 4 Labour: seats now 262, with that vote share 258 Conservatives: Seats now 317, with that vote share: 235 SNP: seats now 35, with that vote share: 53 basically as were saying... tories get crushed by the snp in scotland... and by the lib dems in the south... p.s Labour would be short of an overall majority by 68....... and Fabio is so not going to like what Opinium say... Latest poll for Westminster voting intentions in a general election... Brexit party in the lead on 26% Labour on 22% Tories on 17% Lib dems on 16% Greens on 11% Because of the oddities of FPTP....they went and had a look at the data, and there related it to actual seats.... This is what the Electoral Calculus website reckon would happen with the vote shares.... Nigel Farage's Brexit party would take 306 MP's, just 20 seats short of a majority. Conservatives would take 26 seats, so could be looking at a possible Brexit party/Conservative coalition to keep Corbyn out of Downing street. Its in the Guardian so it must be true.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/01/brexit-party-nigel-farage-lead-opinion-poll-conservatives-opinium
As you asked
...and two days ago the polling indicated a LibDem win 24% to 22% Brexit and Con/ Lab 19% each.
https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/31/lib-dems-win-next-general-election-labour-tories-joint-third-9759776/
This was some other newspaper so it must be true
This certainly seems to back-up the European election result where:
"The combined percentage of vote share of the Liberal Democrats (20.3), Green Party (12.1), SNP (3.6), Change UK (3.4) and Plaid Cymru (1) – who all campaigned on a pro-Remain message – equates to 40.4 per cent.
The parties in favour of a hard Brexit – the Brexit Party (31.6) and Ukip (3.3) – won a combined share of 34.9 per cent of the votes."
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/eu-elections-uk-results-leave-remain-brexit-what-tells-us/
However as only 36% of the population cared enough to vote that means both something and nothing.
Essentially the country is evenly split. It has been evenly split since the Referendum when an "overwhelming" 4% margin for Brexit was recorded
....and if you add up the points tally of Arsenal, Chelsea and Tottenham in the League, then London won the Premier League. Funny that the Premier League trophy is sitting pretty in Manchester City's display cabinet though (also funny that Manchester City's colours are the same as the Brexit party).
As for the Yougov poll that you cited in the Metro, they tried to hide the Brexit party under "other" in the poll. So you wouldn't have even seen the Brexit party as an option unless you clicked on "other" first. Shoddy and deceptive stuff from Yougov after the Brexit party just won the European elections with a clear majority returning 29 MEP's.
Also Opinium were much more accurate in their polling with regard to the EU referendum result in 2016, coming closer to the final figure on the day than Yougov did, so on previous track records Opinium seem to be the more reliable pollsters. "Insights from opinium in the other thread. But on the Premier league analogy. You're acting as tho the euro elections was the big prize. And that the real competition will be on the same basis multi horse race with FPTP winning. Unfortunately it was a meaningless pre season friendly league with half the players missing. And that Man City winning the league means Manchester would beat London in a combined team match. Manchester may win. Who knows. Will Manchester dare risk putting it on the line. Who knows again. But the opinium betting has London at slightly shorter odds of this game does take place. Has this analogy been stretched enough yet? Definitely | |||
" That didn't quite play out that way in the European elections last week though did it. Yes the Lib dems took London, but the vast majority of constituency areas in the South West and the South East were taken by the Brexit party. There was a graph shown on the Peston show on Itv last night which translated the European election results into a FPTP General election result and the Brexit party took a massive 414 constituency seats which would give them a huge majority in the House of Commons. You also ignore the Midlands and the North and Wales, which if Labour swing over to backing a 2nd referendum (which they are looking increasingly likely to do), it will spell the end of Labour in those areas, and will most likely lead to a Brexit party whitewash in the Midlands, North and Wales. and centy is so not going to like what yougov also say.... Because of the oddities of FPTP..... they went and had a look at the data, and there related it to actual seats... this is what they reckon would happen with the vote shares.... Lib Dems: seats now 12, with that vote share 75 Brexit party: seats now 0.. with that vote share 4 Labour: seats now 262, with that vote share 258 Conservatives: Seats now 317, with that vote share: 235 SNP: seats now 35, with that vote share: 53 basically as were saying... tories get crushed by the snp in scotland... and by the lib dems in the south... p.s Labour would be short of an overall majority by 68....... and Fabio is so not going to like what Opinium say... Latest poll for Westminster voting intentions in a general election... Brexit party in the lead on 26% Labour on 22% Tories on 17% Lib dems on 16% Greens on 11% Because of the oddities of FPTP....they went and had a look at the data, and there related it to actual seats.... This is what the Electoral Calculus website reckon would happen with the vote shares.... Nigel Farage's Brexit party would take 306 MP's, just 20 seats short of a majority. Conservatives would take 26 seats, so could be looking at a possible Brexit party/Conservative coalition to keep Corbyn out of Downing street. Its in the Guardian so it must be true.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/01/brexit-party-nigel-farage-lead-opinion-poll-conservatives-opinium
As you asked
...and two days ago the polling indicated a LibDem win 24% to 22% Brexit and Con/ Lab 19% each.
https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/31/lib-dems-win-next-general-election-labour-tories-joint-third-9759776/
This was some other newspaper so it must be true
This certainly seems to back-up the European election result where:
"The combined percentage of vote share of the Liberal Democrats (20.3), Green Party (12.1), SNP (3.6), Change UK (3.4) and Plaid Cymru (1) – who all campaigned on a pro-Remain message – equates to 40.4 per cent.
The parties in favour of a hard Brexit – the Brexit Party (31.6) and Ukip (3.3) – won a combined share of 34.9 per cent of the votes."
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/eu-elections-uk-results-leave-remain-brexit-what-tells-us/
However as only 36% of the population cared enough to vote that means both something and nothing.
Essentially the country is evenly split. It has been evenly split since the Referendum when an "overwhelming" 4% margin for Brexit was recorded
....and if you add up the points tally of Arsenal, Chelsea and Tottenham in the League, then London won the Premier League. Funny that the Premier League trophy is sitting pretty in Manchester City's display cabinet though (also funny that Manchester City's colours are the same as the Brexit party).
As for the Yougov poll that you cited in the Metro, they tried to hide the Brexit party under "other" in the poll. So you wouldn't have even seen the Brexit party as an option unless you clicked on "other" first. Shoddy and deceptive stuff from Yougov after the Brexit party just won the European elections with a clear majority returning 29 MEP's.
Also Opinium were much more accurate in their polling with regard to the EU referendum result in 2016, coming closer to the final figure on the day than Yougov did, so on previous track records Opinium seem to be the more reliable pollsters. "Just copying and pasting everything from the other thread now? Sorry OP "Seasonal migrant workers also recently helped transform Liverpool into European superpower Now that we have dealt with that amusing diversion I will reiterate the actual topic under discussion: "No deal Brexit Nothing to fear" Neither The Tory or Labour parties indicated any support for a no deal Brexit in their manifestos. Neither did the entire Leave campaign. Quite the opposite actually. You are also perfectly aware that the last general election removed the Conservative party's "Brexit means Brexit" mandate. You are also perfectly aware that 2/3 of Labour voters voted Remain. You are also perfectly aware that the Labour has a deliberately ambiguous Brexit policy. Regardless of all that, the implication is that there is, in fact, an even bigger margin against hard Brexit as Labour and Conservative voters in the European election explicitly voted against that option. No one should lose in a representative democracy. That is the entire point. It is not a court case. It is not a zero-sum game. 4% or 1 million votes is not an overwhelming majority. It is not a mandate to permanently tear down something so significant. That is what proportions are about. 4 is small number. If there is a vote of 100 people, 4 people would make the difference. That's hardly any compared to 100. Opinium got the European election vote significantly underestimated the LibDem and Green votes and overestimated the Brexit vote by even more than everyone else. Know a lot about polling and statistical bias then or just using "common sense"? Experts unnecessary. This is from the YouGov site: "How pollsters ask questions is an eternally controversial issue. For voting intention, that often focuses upon how the answer options are presented. The approach that YouGov has always taken is to prompt for the traditional main parties, but only prompt for other parties if people select "other". A similar approach is taken by most other polling companies. This may seem unfair to some people (and has often been a source of complaint from supporters of smaller parties), but is based on what actually gets elections right. In the past, prompting for smaller parties has tended to overstate their support when compared to actual elections, and the two-stage approach to prompting has produced more accurate results. However, there comes a point when a small party becomes a big party, when they should be included in the main prompt. This can be a difficult decision, and one that YouGov takes time and care to call correctly, thoroughly testing any changes before they go ahead. This was the approach we took before the 2015 election when UKIP were breaking through. We regularly tested the effect of prompting on UKIP support, and, once it seemed it was no longer giving them an artifical boost, we started including UKIP in the main prompt alongside Labour, the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats. We are at that same point with the Brexit Party now - testing the impact prompting has and what their support would be in a write-in question without any prompting for any of the parties. If we are confident that including them in the main prompt will produce more accurate results than grouping them with "others", we will update our question prompting. However, at the same time we also need to make sure we do not overstate support for the Brexit Party. YouGov correctly predicted the outcome of last week's EU Parliament elections, including the level of support for the Conservatives, Labour, Liberal Democrats and Greens - but like many pollsters we overstated support for the Brexit Party, putting them at 37% compared to the 31.6% they actually achieved in Great Britain. Over the next few weeks, we will also be looking at the possible causes of that overstatement, and whether there was something to do with turnout, undecided voters or our weighting or sampling scheme that led to us having too many Brexit voters in our final poll." | |||
"labour have saked alister campbell after voting libral in euro elections" He said nothing before the election so did not influence the outcome. He confirmed that he did afterwards. Several other prominent Labour politicians have done the same and not been expelled. This would have gone through Corbyn. Not impressive. | |||
"According to Labour party rules, any member "who joins and/ or supports a political organisation other than an official Labour group or other unit of the Party" will "automatically be ineligible to be or remain a Party member". There's the rules. If voting for the Lib Dems isn't supporting them, I don't know what is." So why haven't the other high profile Labour politicians who have done just this been expelled? | |||
"All political parties have similar rules. Heseltine just got kicked out of the Tory party for exactly the same thing, and I haven't noticed anyone bleating about dictatorships. It's got absolutely nothing to do with JC and everything to do with the NEC. This is another example of the Blairites wanting confirmation that they are somehow above the rules that apply to the rest of the plebs, and I'm glad that for once they are being told that the rules do actually apply to them. Heseltine was suspended, not kicked out. If Labour want to win and advance a socialist agenda then they need a broad church of left and centrist policies - without this they become irrelevant and new centrist parties will form or adapt to absorb disenchanted Labour and Conservative voters..., notice this happenning already? Labour continues to lead the polls, by the way. Labour definitely does not need a party whereby certain members can break the rules because they feel they are too important for them to apply to them, especially when it comes to publicly supporting other political parties. The Labour "lead" is like the swinging Brexit / Leave "lead". It is minor and it is an appallingly small lead considering that they have been opposing the worst PM and Government in living memory. This new investigation into the Labour is going to damage it. As is Corbyns speech today that contradicts what Abbot, Starmer and Watson have said over the last few days. He is not a Leader, there is insufficient dynamism, drive and determination to oppose. Brexit is going hard right and brutally damaging and he is still sitting on the fence. His job is to stand up for ordinary working people and tell them the truth - with conviction. The reason that the Labour lead is small is that politics are polarised. Ie, nobody is voting for the centrist parties. In 2017, Labour commanded a vote share that has only been beaten (slightly) by Blair in 1997. The news at that election was the utter collapse of the centre. Voters rejected the Lib Dems in the same way they had rejected New Labour. Look at ChangeUK. Can't command an opinion poll vote share of more than 5%. I'll repeat this: Every "third way" social Democrat party who failed to shift to the left has been annihilated all across Europe. The British Labour party still commands a lead in the polls and has the largest membership of any political party in the entire of Europe. I think that the failing arrogance of ChangeUK was a total inability to understand this. They thought that they could walk away from Labour and the Tories, wear nice suits, have some soundbites but no actual policies and people would vote for them in droves. They were clearly wrong, hence Heidi Allen admitting that the party will probably cease to exist soon. I find it quite cheering that both the Labour party and the Conservatives seem to believe that their salvation lies in the extremes of both. As both of them disappear over the horizon of pragmatic, sensible politics the ground becomes ever more fertile for true liberals. Through the darkness of BREXIT, populism, nationalism and intolerance a light is starting to shine and a genuine hope for the future is beginning to emerge. The more the Tories and Labour purge their parties the more talent there is heading to the centre. Bring it on. The future's bright, the future's orange (and, with a bit of Green thrown in to, it's still yellow).
Again, the Labour manifesto is far from extreme.
You seem to have missed the bit about the death of centrism.
It's not 1997, we've had a crash since then. The gap between the rich and the poor continues to grow. People are relying on food banks in parts of the country and centrism simply offers more austerity, possibly with the odd diversity policy thrown in.
When people have nothing, they vote for change.
I think, whether it's towards BREXIT party or the LibDems/Greens, the change most people seem to looking for is change from Tory/Labour duopoly. As for Labour not being, or heading toward, the extreme; any party that has as its main slogan "Goverment for the many, not the few" is clearly saying that they are not willing govern for the whole country and not for certain minorities that they feel are less deserving. A very divisive and quite extreme message. I just wonder how many of these 'few' who Corbyn's Labour party is not willing to govern for happen to prefer to have their day of rest on a Saturday rather than a Sunday.
You honestly think that's what "for the many, not the few" is supposed to mean?
To you, Labour are a secret Nazi plot to take over British mainstream politics?
Your tinfoil hat is slipping...."I honestly that it means whatever the person reading it wants it to mean, a bit like Labour's BREXIT policy really. However, whatever it actually makes no difference. As far as I'm concerned any party that set out not to try to govern for the whole country but only for a part of it, whether that part is few or many, is heading in the wrong direction regardless of which ever direction that is. | |||
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