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Actual deaths from the virus
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Has anybody noticed that they figures are “people who died within 28 days of testing positive for the virus” ?
The figures show anybody who dies regardless of the actual cause of death. Yes, they will include deaths from the virus. But they can include people who have died from heart attacks not related to the actual virus, for example. Technically they are including people who may have died from accidents as well.
We are not saying it’s open silly season and not to worry. We do worry about it. But the “real” figures would be interesting.
Stay safe. |
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There has been calls to release the death figures but I bet that won't happen. You can die from a heart attack but if you have covid you are still added to the covid case numbers. Im not doubting the virus exist, My dad still in Hospital with it but I do think there something not right. I think this government are worried that a lot of people are seeing through the lies they have spun and it leading to civil unrest and just now you have tory rebels trying to get other politicians onside to end the lockdowns and find a other way to deal with this madness |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"There has been calls to release the death figures but I bet that won't happen. You can die from a heart attack but if you have covid you are still added to the covid case numbers. Im not doubting the virus exist, My dad still in Hospital with it but I do think there something not right. I think this government are worried that a lot of people are seeing through the lies they have spun and it leading to civil unrest and just now you have tory rebels trying to get other politicians onside to end the lockdowns and find a other way to deal with this madness"
What lies have they spun ?
What suggestion do you have on another way to deal with covid 19 ? |
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Yep, they are heavily skewing the statistics to make it sound and look much much worse than it actually is.
Scaremongering as usual tbh.
Don't get me wrong, I am not a covid denier, and I understand the severity of the virus, but nobody is benefitting from overly inflated statistics. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"There has been calls to release the death figures but I bet that won't happen. You can die from a heart attack but if you have covid you are still added to the covid case numbers. Im not doubting the virus exist, My dad still in Hospital with it but I do think there something not right. I think this government are worried that a lot of people are seeing through the lies they have spun and it leading to civil unrest and just now you have tory rebels trying to get other politicians onside to end the lockdowns and find a other way to deal with this madness
What lies have they spun ?
What suggestion do you have on another way to deal with covid 19 ?"
One of us works in ICU. So we get the very ill people.
Not all die.
A heart attack isn’t related to covid. Possibly.
A car crash isn’t related to covid, but included. |
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Focused Protection protect the most vulnerable and have things in place to protect them. we need to get back to normal and go on with our lives. Also the have used terms that unless you do your own digging make it seem notice the there have replaced quoting numbers to percentages because it trigger that fear in a certain select of people aka the doom and gloomers. We need to face facts the virus is here to stay we need to feed a way to live with it that beneficial to all sides and Lockdowns aren't the answer to it. |
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"Focused Protection protect the most vulnerable and have things in place to protect them. we need to get back to normal and go on with our lives. Also the have used terms that unless you do your own digging make it seem notice the there have replaced quoting numbers to percentages because it trigger that fear in a certain select of people aka the doom and gloomers. We need to face facts the virus is here to stay we need to feed a way to live with it that beneficial to all sides and Lockdowns aren't the answer to it."
Totally agree with you on LBC Saturday it was confirmed that Covid was 24 th on the list of what people had died of in Wales the previous week , and with an average age of 82.4 of Covid overall deaths and a average life expectancy in U.K. of 81
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"I want to see when they give the daily death figures that they also give figures for death by cancer, heart disease etc.
Lies damn lies and statistics..... Remember that we'll known statement. "
Cancer averages over 450 a deaths a day |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Just look at the raised figures for other deaths heart attacks have risen along with other ailments none covid related because people are afraid of attending doctors or reduced services etc..its getting that more people are dying needlessly from treatable ailments than covid.. |
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By *ucianpoundCouple
over a year ago
Cap d’Agde, France |
Given the variations in estimating the mortality rate within the UK and elsewhere a more accurate measure might be to compare this years death toll at the years end against the average over the last 5-10 years. |
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"I want to see when they give the daily death figures that they also give figures for death by cancer, heart disease etc.
Lies damn lies and statistics..... Remember that we'll known statement. Cancer averages over 450 a deaths a day "
There are over 100 types of cancer. Of these, lung cancer is the biggest killer. Approximately 100 people die every day from lung cancer.
There has been an average of 200 deaths each day from covid. This is with a heavy lockdown to suppress the virus.
The exponential spread of the virus without lockdown or other forms of suppression would have ripped through the population causing hundreds of thousands of deaths. 45,000 from about 7% of the infected population suggests a figure approaching 500k before herd immunity. The NHS would undoubtedly have been overwhelmed.
Why people are wanting to compare deaths from a group of conditions to a single virus that has been heavily suppressed is baffling...
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"There has been calls to release the death figures but I bet that won't happen. You can die from a heart attack but if you have covid you are still added to the covid case numbers. Im not doubting the virus exist, My dad still in Hospital with it but I do think there something not right. I think this government are worried that a lot of people are seeing through the lies they have spun and it leading to civil unrest and just now you have tory rebels trying to get other politicians onside to end the lockdowns and find a other way to deal with this madness"
People can die from a stroke but have terminal cancer. They get added to the cancer figures. Is that wrong too? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"There has been calls to release the death figures but I bet that won't happen. You can die from a heart attack but if you have covid you are still added to the covid case numbers. Im not doubting the virus exist, My dad still in Hospital with it but I do think there something not right. I think this government are worried that a lot of people are seeing through the lies they have spun and it leading to civil unrest and just now you have tory rebels trying to get other politicians onside to end the lockdowns and find a other way to deal with this madness
What lies have they spun ?
What suggestion do you have on another way to deal with covid 19 ?
One of us works in ICU. So we get the very ill people.
Not all die.
A heart attack isn’t related to covid. Possibly.
A car crash isn’t related to covid, but included. "
Yes i know but what lies have they spun ?
What suggestions do you have to deal with covid. One of us also works in ICU. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Focused Protection protect the most vulnerable and have things in place to protect them. we need to get back to normal and go on with our lives. Also the have used terms that unless you do your own digging make it seem notice the there have replaced quoting numbers to percentages because it trigger that fear in a certain select of people aka the doom and gloomers. We need to face facts the virus is here to stay we need to feed a way to live with it that beneficial to all sides and Lockdowns aren't the answer to it."
Focused protection for the vunerable means its not back to normal for them though. |
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By *ax777Man
over a year ago
Not here |
"Given the variations in estimating the mortality rate within the UK and elsewhere a more accurate measure might be to compare this years death toll at the years end against the average over the last 5-10 years."
Up to week ending 16 October, the figures for this year are just under 60K higher than the previous 5 year average. |
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By *_91Man
over a year ago
Manchester |
I have a friend who lost their grandma in the height of lockdown.
She was battling cancer, was diagnosed as terminal and receiving end of life care.
Her death was put down to Covid  |
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"Focused Protection protect the most vulnerable and have things in place to protect them. we need to get back to normal and go on with our lives. Also the have used terms that unless you do your own digging make it seem notice the there have replaced quoting numbers to percentages because it trigger that fear in a certain select of people aka the doom and gloomers. We need to face facts the virus is here to stay we need to feed a way to live with it that beneficial to all sides and Lockdowns aren't the answer to it.
Focused protection for the vunerable means its not back to normal for them though."
What do suggest Lockdown for ever ? |
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By *iverscuMan
over a year ago
Berkshire |
I'm not sure what the government can really do but I'm sure if they did nothing, the infection rates and death total would be out of control and more people would be dying from covid than cancer, heart attacks etc combined |
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"I have a friend who lost their grandma in the height of lockdown.
She was battling cancer, was diagnosed as terminal and receiving end of life care.
Her death was put down to Covid "
Her death certificate would have included the cancer too. Had she not had covid it's likely she would have died on a different day. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I have a friend who lost their grandma in the height of lockdown.
She was battling cancer, was diagnosed as terminal and receiving end of life care.
Her death was put down to Covid "
I’ve got to meet 118 families, all of which have lost someone they loved, all to covid 19... my ‘work mates’ all have very similar tally’s.
To make the obvious point, anyone with a serious form of cancer contracting covid-19 is extremely high risk. |
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By *_91Man
over a year ago
Manchester |
"I have a friend who lost their grandma in the height of lockdown.
She was battling cancer, was diagnosed as terminal and receiving end of life care.
Her death was put down to Covid
I’ve got to meet 118 families, all of which have lost someone they loved, all to covid 19... my ‘work mates’ all have very similar tally’s.
To make the obvious point, anyone with a serious form of cancer contracting covid-19 is extremely high risk."
Yeah I’m not denying that and I am by no means denying the severity of the virus whatsoever, i’m just saying that it’s obviously very difficult to differentiate between whether it was Covid or the cancer that caused the death.
I suppose it would be interesting to know what was listed as cause of death on the certificate as there were rumours that underlying heath issues weren’t being mentioned |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
What lies have they spun ?
What suggestion do you have on another way to deal with covid 19 ?
Well as OP stating the death stats are lies."
But we are aware of how they record deaths !!! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Focused Protection protect the most vulnerable and have things in place to protect them. we need to get back to normal and go on with our lives. Also the have used terms that unless you do your own digging make it seem notice the there have replaced quoting numbers to percentages because it trigger that fear in a certain select of people aka the doom and gloomers. We need to face facts the virus is here to stay we need to feed a way to live with it that beneficial to all sides and Lockdowns aren't the answer to it.
Focused protection for the vunerable means its not back to normal for them though. What do suggest Lockdown for ever ? "
I suggest lockdowns as needed. That will alter as more knowledge is gained about covid. |
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"Focused Protection protect the most vulnerable and have things in place to protect them. we need to get back to normal and go on with our lives. Also the have used terms that unless you do your own digging make it seem notice the there have replaced quoting numbers to percentages because it trigger that fear in a certain select of people aka the doom and gloomers. We need to face facts the virus is here to stay we need to feed a way to live with it that beneficial to all sides and Lockdowns aren't the answer to it. Totally agree with you on LBC Saturday it was confirmed that Covid was 24 th on the list of what people had died of in Wales the previous week , and with an average age of 82.4 of Covid overall deaths and a average life expectancy in U.K. of 81 "
There are about 5,000 people under retirement age who are dead as a result of the virus despite a lockdown to suppress the virus. Had it been left to rip through the population then 10x that figure would be dead now.
There is also no point in quoting where on a list covid deaths sit. This wave has hit the young first and is moving on to the old now..Give it 2 or 3 weeks and we will see where in the list covid is... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I'm not sure what the government can really do but I'm sure if they did nothing, the infection rates and death total would be out of control and more people would be dying from covid than cancer, heart attacks etc combined"
I agree  |
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The actual number of deaths where somebody was perfectly well , then caught the virus and consequently died , is 307...that figure comes from the ONS not me ...seems silly shutting the whole country down for that ... |
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It is very difficult to get an accurate picture of "covid related deaths", there are a number of deadly symptoms of the disease. It can cause heart problems, kidney issues, lung problems etc... so in most cases the "actual" cause of death is Heart Attack, or Pneumonia, etc... but they only occurred because of their infection.
It's the same with many diseases, the actual cause of death is a symptom or complication rather than the disease.
Cal |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The actual number of deaths where somebody was perfectly well , then caught the virus and consequently died , is 307...that figure comes from the ONS not me ...seems silly shutting the whole country down for that ..."
So someone who was ill and, with treatment of their condition, had perhaps many many good years ahead of them gets covid and dies...they don't matter? It's silly shutting the country down for them? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"There has been calls to release the death figures but I bet that won't happen. You can die from a heart attack but if you have covid you are still added to the covid case numbers. Im not doubting the virus exist, My dad still in Hospital with it but I do think there something not right. I think this government are worried that a lot of people are seeing through the lies they have spun and it leading to civil unrest and just now you have tory rebels trying to get other politicians onside to end the lockdowns and find a other way to deal with this madness
What lies have they spun ?
What suggestion do you have on another way to deal with covid 19 ?
One of us works in ICU. So we get the very ill people.
Not all die.
A heart attack isn’t related to covid. Possibly.
A car crash isn’t related to covid, but included.
Yes i know but what lies have they spun ?
What suggestions do you have to deal with covid. One of us also works in ICU."
A simple suggestion. Would be the same with other virus things. Keep at home till it’s passed. Don’t be a spreader
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"There has been calls to release the death figures but I bet that won't happen. You can die from a heart attack but if you have covid you are still added to the covid case numbers. Im not doubting the virus exist, My dad still in Hospital with it but I do think there something not right. I think this government are worried that a lot of people are seeing through the lies they have spun and it leading to civil unrest and just now you have tory rebels trying to get other politicians onside to end the lockdowns and find a other way to deal with this madness
People can die from a stroke but have terminal cancer. They get added to the cancer figures. Is that wrong too?"
If you look at cancer related deaths they mostly (not always) say the true reason they die. Rarely imho claim other reasons for dying. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Yep, they are heavily skewing the statistics to make it sound and look much much worse than it actually is.
Scaremongering as usual tbh.
Don't get me wrong, I am not a covid denier, and I understand the severity of the virus, but nobody is benefitting from overly inflated statistics."
There is actually compelling evidence that the figures are being massaged down not up to take the bad look off it. |
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The most meaningful figure is the 'excess deaths' one this shows the reality of how many more people are dying.
Also, it is not all about the deaths, many many people are being left with life limiting conditions after having survived covid.
And all these deaths and conditions are happening with the restrictions in place, can you imaging how it would skyrocket of it was just left to infect everyone. |
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"The actual number of deaths where somebody was perfectly well , then caught the virus and consequently died , is 307...that figure comes from the ONS not me ...seems silly shutting the whole country down for that ..."
I understood that figure to be around 2-3k but even if I am right, you would likely retain your argument.
Now, time to make YOU look very silly.
Across the globe there are 1.7bn people who have underlying health conditions that could worsen covid. 1 in 5 humans on the planet are not 82 years of age. 15m people in England have underlying health conditions.
We are not shutting the country down for those 307 people (or the other 3000 healthy people who would die if we all caught covid). We are shutting down the country for 15m people who are at risk (many under the age of 60) plus the 307...
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/15/health/coronavirus-underlying-conditions.html
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"I want to see when they give the daily death figures that they also give figures for death by cancer, heart disease etc.
Lies damn lies and statistics..... Remember that we'll known statement. Cancer averages over 450 a deaths a day "
Amd it's not even contagious, thank God we have restrictions  |
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"Has anybody noticed that they figures are “people who died within 28 days of testing positive for the virus” ?
The figures show anybody who dies regardless of the actual cause of death. Yes, they will include deaths from the virus. But they can include people who have died from heart attacks not related to the actual virus, for example. Technically they are including people who may have died from accidents as well.
We are not saying it’s open silly season and not to worry. We do worry about it. But the “real” figures would be interesting.
Stay safe. "
Would you care to calculate the odds of a person dieing of a random cause within 28 days of being diagnosed with covid-19 ?
I'm guessing it's gonna be fairly low
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Has anybody noticed that they figures are “people who died within 28 days of testing positive for the virus” ?
The figures show anybody who dies regardless of the actual cause of death. Yes, they will include deaths from the virus. But they can include people who have died from heart attacks not related to the actual virus, for example. Technically they are including people who may have died from accidents as well.
We are not saying it’s open silly season and not to worry. We do worry about it. But the “real” figures would be interesting.
Stay safe.
Would you care to calculate the odds of a person dieing of a random cause within 28 days of being diagnosed with covid-19 ?
I'm guessing it's gonna be fairly low
"
If you look At figures quoted above. We gets lot of cancer deaths a day. Adding those to covid numbers is wrong. RTI deaths are also added.
Look at the excess death number for the real figures. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Its amazing what people will say to self justify them personally being allowed to bend the rules. Its not surprising though.  "
We are not saying that.
We are saying be honest with the information.
But politics requires lies. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"I actually think as unpalatable as the deaths from it are. Its the overwhelming the hospitals that we have to avoid at all costs"
Again I’d look at the numbers.
We have nightingales to help.
But haven’t got close to using them really.
And better treatment is helping, a combination of drugs is helping. |
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"Has anybody noticed that they figures are “people who died within 28 days of testing positive for the virus” ?
The figures show anybody who dies regardless of the actual cause of death. Yes, they will include deaths from the virus. But they can include people who have died from heart attacks not related to the actual virus, for example. Technically they are including people who may have died from accidents as well.
We are not saying it’s open silly season and not to worry. We do worry about it. But the “real” figures would be interesting.
Stay safe.
Would you care to calculate the odds of a person dieing of a random cause within 28 days of being diagnosed with covid-19 ?
I'm guessing it's gonna be fairly low
If you look At figures quoted above. We gets lot of cancer deaths a day. Adding those to covid numbers is wrong. RTI deaths are also added.
Look at the excess death number for the real figures. "
That's absolute bullshit ... |
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"Has anybody noticed that they figures are “people who died within 28 days of testing positive for the virus” ?
The figures show anybody who dies regardless of the actual cause of death. Yes, they will include deaths from the virus. But they can include people who have died from heart attacks not related to the actual virus, for example. Technically they are including people who may have died from accidents as well.
We are not saying it’s open silly season and not to worry. We do worry about it. But the “real” figures would be interesting.
Stay safe.
Would you care to calculate the odds of a person dieing of a random cause within 28 days of being diagnosed with covid-19 ?
I'm guessing it's gonna be fairly low
"
That's the real issue right there, your just guessing, without any real knowledge, facts or figures. |
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"Has anybody noticed that they figures are “people who died within 28 days of testing positive for the virus” ?
The figures show anybody who dies regardless of the actual cause of death. Yes, they will include deaths from the virus. But they can include people who have died from heart attacks not related to the actual virus, for example. Technically they are including people who may have died from accidents as well.
We are not saying it’s open silly season and not to worry. We do worry about it. But the “real” figures would be interesting.
Stay safe.
Would you care to calculate the odds of a person dieing of a random cause within 28 days of being diagnosed with covid-19 ?
I'm guessing it's gonna be fairly low
That's the real issue right there, your just guessing, without any real knowledge, facts or figures. "
So tell me, what's the probability ?
I'm open to learn. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Has anybody noticed that they figures are “people who died within 28 days of testing positive for the virus” ?
The figures show anybody who dies regardless of the actual cause of death. Yes, they will include deaths from the virus. But they can include people who have died from heart attacks not related to the actual virus, for example. Technically they are including people who may have died from accidents as well.
We are not saying it’s open silly season and not to worry. We do worry about it. But the “real” figures would be interesting.
Stay safe.
Would you care to calculate the odds of a person dieing of a random cause within 28 days of being diagnosed with covid-19 ?
I'm guessing it's gonna be fairly low
If you look At figures quoted above. We gets lot of cancer deaths a day. Adding those to covid numbers is wrong. RTI deaths are also added.
Look at the excess death number for the real figures.
That's absolute bullshit ..."
Which bit.
They have admitted they include any death in the headline figures of those diagnosed with covid in the previous 28 days. We see it in my ICU unit as well.
The key figure is the excess death figure. That removes the normal death rates from other causes. So you get a more accurate figure.
I think we should self isolate more. Behave better. And have another big lockdown nationally. But it will still need people to behave better.
My point was not the virus and how bad it is. But how the figures used are wrong. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Has anybody noticed that they figures are “people who died within 28 days of testing positive for the virus” ?
The figures show anybody who dies regardless of the actual cause of death. Yes, they will include deaths from the virus. But they can include people who have died from heart attacks not related to the actual virus, for example. Technically they are including people who may have died from accidents as well.
We are not saying it’s open silly season and not to worry. We do worry about it. But the “real” figures would be interesting.
Stay safe.
Would you care to calculate the odds of a person dieing of a random cause within 28 days of being diagnosed with covid-19 ?
I'm guessing it's gonna be fairly low
If you look At figures quoted above. We gets lot of cancer deaths a day. Adding those to covid numbers is wrong. RTI deaths are also added.
Look at the excess death number for the real figures.
That's absolute bullshit ...
Which bit.
They have admitted they include any death in the headline figures of those diagnosed with covid in the previous 28 days. We see it in my ICU unit as well.
The key figure is the excess death figure. That removes the normal death rates from other causes. So you get a more accurate figure.
I think we should self isolate more. Behave better. And have another big lockdown nationally. But it will still need people to behave better.
My point was not the virus and how bad it is. But how the figures used are wrong. "
The excess death figures are absolutely the correct way to determine the real impact of covid. The death rates on average for any given time are known and solidly dependable data. By comparing the average before covid to now you can totally see the real picture.
I think behaviourally speaking people are just seeing it in a perspective to suit their own behavioural needs and wants. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I actually think as unpalatable as the deaths from it are. Its the overwhelming the hospitals that we have to avoid at all costs
Again I’d look at the numbers.
We have nightingales to help.
But haven’t got close to using them really.
And better treatment is helping, a combination of drugs is helping. "
Is there enough trained staff to staff the nightingales as well as the existing hospitals? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"There has been calls to release the death figures but I bet that won't happen. You can die from a heart attack but if you have covid you are still added to the covid case numbers. Im not doubting the virus exist, My dad still in Hospital with it but I do think there something not right. I think this government are worried that a lot of people are seeing through the lies they have spun and it leading to civil unrest and just now you have tory rebels trying to get other politicians onside to end the lockdowns and find a other way to deal with this madness"
Would that person have had that heart attack at that point if they hadn’t contracted Covid19? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I actually think as unpalatable as the deaths from it are. Its the overwhelming the hospitals that we have to avoid at all costs
Again I’d look at the numbers.
We have nightingales to help.
But haven’t got close to using them really.
And better treatment is helping, a combination of drugs is helping.
Is there enough trained staff to staff the nightingales as well as the existing hospitals? "
No. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Has anybody noticed that they figures are “people who died within 28 days of testing positive for the virus” ?
The figures show anybody who dies regardless of the actual cause of death. Yes, they will include deaths from the virus. But they can include people who have died from heart attacks not related to the actual virus, for example. Technically they are including people who may have died from accidents as well.
We are not saying it’s open silly season and not to worry. We do worry about it. But the “real” figures would be interesting.
Stay safe.
Would you care to calculate the odds of a person dieing of a random cause within 28 days of being diagnosed with covid-19 ?
I'm guessing it's gonna be fairly low
If you look At figures quoted above. We gets lot of cancer deaths a day. Adding those to covid numbers is wrong. RTI deaths are also added.
Look at the excess death number for the real figures.
That's absolute bullshit ...
Which bit.
They have admitted they include any death in the headline figures of those diagnosed with covid in the previous 28 days. We see it in my ICU unit as well.
The key figure is the excess death figure. That removes the normal death rates from other causes. So you get a more accurate figure.
I think we should self isolate more. Behave better. And have another big lockdown nationally. But it will still need people to behave better.
My point was not the virus and how bad it is. But how the figures used are wrong.
The excess death figures are absolutely the correct way to determine the real impact of covid. The death rates on average for any given time are known and solidly dependable data. By comparing the average before covid to now you can totally see the real picture.
I think behaviourally speaking people are just seeing it in a perspective to suit their own behavioural needs and wants. "
Sadly I agree.
Using a figure to justify behaviour and policy for some |
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Its is very hard to get an accurate figure for covid deaths. The government publishes death for people after 28 days and 60 days after a positive test. 28 days is the headline figure. They also publish the number of deaths where covid is mentioned on the death certificate for people who die who have not had a positive covid test but a doctor thinks they have had covid. The headline figure of deaths after 28 days is probably an underestimate as fit or young people who die of covid are likely to die after more than 28 days. Also we will sadly need to add the earlier deaths of people who currently have heart kidney and lung danage this won't be known for many years. In conclusion the headline covid death figure is almost certainly an underestimate of the true covid death toll. |
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This topic was raised at least twice earlier last week and has had similar posts opened here for months.
It's important to look at the Office for National Statistics and their explanation of causes of deaths, including covid-19. They make it explicitly clear how they collate and report on the causes of deaths and is incredibly informative.
There are 2 parts to this post - the actual causes of the reported deaths and disputes due to ops perceived inaccuracy and then consequent substantiated importance of the disease, affecting over 60,000 people who have died.
Get an understanding of the ONS reporting rules for deaths.
Do substantial research on the disease via reputable sources, if you are uncertain of the massive impacts that this has on many more thousands of lives above the 60,000 deaths, as this infection is causing substantial harm to so many people who do survive.
And resist urges to inform yourself from sources that are simple media outlets. Go to the information sources that have value and no agenda other than to provide credible data. Don't just be led by emotion, especially if you are of the mindset that thinks there is an hidden agenda to scare the population, other than to keep people safe, indirectly helping everyone and the economy.
Consider reading more threads for the huge investment here that many have made, explaining different viewpoints etc |
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By *mmmMaybeCouple
over a year ago
West Wales |
"Has anybody noticed that they figures are “people who died within 28 days of testing positive for the virus” ?
The figures show anybody who dies regardless of the actual cause of death. Yes, they will include deaths from the virus. But they can include people who have died from heart attacks not related to the actual virus, for example. Technically they are including people who may have died from accidents as well.
We are not saying it’s open silly season and not to worry. We do worry about it. But the “real” figures would be interesting.
Stay safe. "
The real figure is what is above the norm, I asked this a week or so ago & someone advised at the time that this years U.K. figure so far over the five year average was 66,000 additional deaths.
S |
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"This topic was raised at least twice earlier last week and has had similar posts opened here for months.
It's important to look at the Office for National Statistics and their explanation of causes of deaths, including covid-19. They make it explicitly clear how they collate and report on the causes of deaths and is incredibly informative.
There are 2 parts to this post - the actual causes of the reported deaths and disputes due to ops perceived inaccuracy and then consequent substantiated importance of the disease, affecting over 60,000 people who have died.
Get an understanding of the ONS reporting rules for deaths.
Do substantial research on the disease via reputable sources, if you are uncertain of the massive impacts that this has on many more thousands of lives above the 60,000 deaths, as this infection is causing substantial harm to so many people who do survive.
And resist urges to inform yourself from sources that are simple media outlets. Go to the information sources that have value and no agenda other than to provide credible data. Don't just be led by emotion, especially if you are of the mindset that thinks there is an hidden agenda to scare the population, other than to keep people safe, indirectly helping everyone and the economy.
Consider reading more threads for the huge investment here that many have made, explaining different viewpoints etc"
This..
Would add that some are so invested in any other reasons and they will vary etc that they will never look objectively at this..
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"Has anybody noticed that they figures are “people who died within 28 days of testing positive for the virus” ?
The figures show anybody who dies regardless of the actual cause of death. Yes, they will include deaths from the virus. But they can include people who have died from heart attacks not related to the actual virus, for example. Technically they are including people who may have died from accidents as well.
We are not saying it’s open silly season and not to worry. We do worry about it. But the “real” figures would be interesting.
Stay safe.
Would you care to calculate the odds of a person dieing of a random cause within 28 days of being diagnosed with covid-19 ?
I'm guessing it's gonna be fairly low
That's the real issue right there, your just guessing, without any real knowledge, facts or figures.
So tell me, what's the probability ?
I'm open to learn."
Annual death risk of all ages is 1 in 165.
In a year there are 13x 28 day periods so I would say the answer is 1 in 2,145.
So, out of 45k covid deaths, 20 would have been dead from another cause. |
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"Has anybody noticed that they figures are “people who died within 28 days of testing positive for the virus” ?
The figures show anybody who dies regardless of the actual cause of death. Yes, they will include deaths from the virus. But they can include people who have died from heart attacks not related to the actual virus, for example. Technically they are including people who may have died from accidents as well.
We are not saying it’s open silly season and not to worry. We do worry about it. But the “real” figures would be interesting.
Stay safe.
Would you care to calculate the odds of a person dieing of a random cause within 28 days of being diagnosed with covid-19 ?
I'm guessing it's gonna be fairly low
If you look At figures quoted above. We gets lot of cancer deaths a day. Adding those to covid numbers is wrong. RTI deaths are also added.
Look at the excess death number for the real figures.
That's absolute bullshit ...
Which bit.
They have admitted they include any death in the headline figures of those diagnosed with covid in the previous 28 days. We see it in my ICU unit as well.
The key figure is the excess death figure. That removes the normal death rates from other causes. So you get a more accurate figure.
I think we should self isolate more. Behave better. And have another big lockdown nationally. But it will still need people to behave better.
My point was not the virus and how bad it is. But how the figures used are wrong.
The excess death figures are absolutely the correct way to determine the real impact of covid. The death rates on average for any given time are known and solidly dependable data. By comparing the average before covid to now you can totally see the real picture.
I think behaviourally speaking people are just seeing it in a perspective to suit their own behavioural needs and wants. "
Correct as an overall impact but you do have to acknowledge that people have/will die because of reduction in treatment and fear of leaving their homes to see a GP in case they caught covid.its too early to really make any solid claims with regards to that though
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
again... so much focus on the death rate... and not so much on hospitalisations...
people are treating being admitted into hospital like it is akin to having a break in a holiday camp!
if you are in hospital... you are in bad shape! full stop!
also... getting well doesn't mean full recovery! it is messing with people for a long time and may have lifetime consequences! |
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If you look at studies of ‘excess deaths’ (clearly one death should be regarded as excess!), this shows that compared to the ‘average’ deaths in the UK, this year is already 38% greater. On average ~ 600,000 people diein the UK of all causes. On this basis, by March next year we will have had over 200,000 excess deaths in the UK. Are they all Covid, of course not, but it is quite clear that Covid has resulted in significant increase in the death rate of this country and pretty much all others.
Arguing that Covid has little impact, or it is a ‘fraud’ does not help the famillies and friends who have lost people to Covid. Many of these people have been elderly, but they still deserved a chance to have had a longer life.
Covid kills people  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I want to see when they give the daily death figures that they also give figures for death by cancer, heart disease etc.
Lies damn lies and statistics..... Remember that we'll known statement. Cancer averages over 450 a deaths a day
Amd it's not even contagious, thank God we have restrictions "
When they quote that 1 in 2 will suffer from cancer I think the odds are worse than catching Covid. I'm not sure what the survival rate for cancer is compared to Covid. |
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If we only recorded death rate from Covid in people who only contracted Covid and no other medical conditions I would guess it would be in single figures.
But, those figures alone would not give a true reflection of the virus death rate.
Would we say someone who dies with Covid who also suffers from heart disease a Covid death?
If not, then someone with Covid who had a stent fitted 8 years ago and is in good health.
Someone with type 2 diabetes, with poor control or type 1 with excellent control.
I think it would just become more confusing.
From what is emerging, the death rate is dropping but from my experience the damage to lungs and central nervous system in younger, healthy people is on the rise.
Why, no idea.
So the 28 day rule, is it any good, well at least it's a datum we can work from.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Has anybody noticed that they figures are “people who died within 28 days of testing positive for the virus” ?
The figures show anybody who dies regardless of the actual cause of death. Yes, they will include deaths from the virus. But they can include people who have died from heart attacks not related to the actual virus, for example. Technically they are including people who may have died from accidents as well.
We are not saying it’s open silly season and not to worry. We do worry about it. But the “real” figures would be interesting.
Stay safe. "
The problem is lack of oxygen in blood from covid causes cardiac arrest, organ failure ect. So maybe something else killed them, but Covid was the cause of that. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If you look at studies of ‘excess deaths’ (clearly one death should be regarded as excess!), this shows that compared to the ‘average’ deaths in the UK, this year is already 38% greater. On average ~ 600,000 people diein the UK of all causes. On this basis, by March next year we will have had over 200,000 excess deaths in the UK. Are they all Covid, of course not, but it is quite clear that Covid has resulted in significant increase in the death rate of this country and pretty much all others.
Arguing that Covid has little impact, or it is a ‘fraud’ does not help the famillies and friends who have lost people to Covid. Many of these people have been elderly, but they still deserved a chance to have had a longer life.
Covid kills people "
Mr here. I would also add for the doubters. I am a super fit 54 year old with no underlying health conditions. Mid May I was in superb condition. I ran a sub 6 minute mile on a Wednesday afternoon. By Saturday I was in hospital with pneumonia which eventually spread to both lungs. I consider that I got off lightly and am now almost back to full health. Covid is real folks. People need to take it seriously and show some short term restraint and obey the guidelines which are there to save people not to spoil peoples fun. |
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"Has anybody noticed that they figures are “people who died within 28 days of testing positive for the virus” ?
The figures show anybody who dies regardless of the actual cause of death. Yes, they will include deaths from the virus. But they can include people who have died from heart attacks not related to the actual virus, for example. Technically they are including people who may have died from accidents as well.
We are not saying it’s open silly season and not to worry. We do worry about it. But the “real” figures would be interesting.
Stay safe. "
I don’t like the way they’re reporting it either: in wave 1, we had people ventilated on ICU for 2-3 months. Those patients who died, well after the 28 days, would not count, even though they *did* die from COVID.
There are likely to be errors at both ends, but the main thing is to have figures recorded consistently. Trends - rather than absolute numbers - are likely to be more useful.
Hospitalisations, ICU admissions and deaths: we need to have an eye on all these, borough by borough, rather than just across regions. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Yes the death statistics are way out. A lot of scaremongering and because of this no doubt a lot of people have taken their own lives.
It's depressing hearing doom and gloom in the news all the time. If they focused on other things it would give people a feel good factor, but no they put me in misery.
I not saying that covid don't exist (I have a cousin in hospital with it now) but we know that we need to be careful and stay safe, so give it a fucking break. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"If you look at studies of ‘excess deaths’ (clearly one death should be regarded as excess!), this shows that compared to the ‘average’ deaths in the UK, this year is already 38% greater. On average ~ 600,000 people diein the UK of all causes. On this basis, by March next year we will have had over 200,000 excess deaths in the UK. Are they all Covid, of course not, but it is quite clear that Covid has resulted in significant increase in the death rate of this country and pretty much all others.
Arguing that Covid has little impact, or it is a ‘fraud’ does not help the famillies and friends who have lost people to Covid. Many of these people have been elderly, but they still deserved a chance to have had a longer life.
Covid kills people "
Ignorance and stupidity help covid kill.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I actually think as unpalatable as the deaths from it are. Its the overwhelming the hospitals that we have to avoid at all costs
Again I’d look at the numbers.
We have nightingales to help.
But haven’t got close to using them really.
And better treatment is helping, a combination of drugs is helping.
Is there enough trained staff to staff the nightingales as well as the existing hospitals?
No."
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I actually think as unpalatable as the deaths from it are. Its the overwhelming the hospitals that we have to avoid at all costs
Again I’d look at the numbers.
We have nightingales to help.
But haven’t got close to using them really.
And better treatment is helping, a combination of drugs is helping.
Is there enough trained staff to staff the nightingales as well as the existing hospitals?
No.
"
Sadly, people don’t like to acknowledge this because it shows that the world isn’t fair, it’s fundamentally a chaotic place where there is very little certainty.
People like simplicity and certainty, the world doesn’t provide this, so we alter it in our heads to become what we need it to be. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I've said this before and I'm still of the opinion that using a PCR positive test to assume somebody died from covid19 is not the best idea.
It should be a double diagnosis from a health professional just like any other death which would obviously incur a PCR test for sars-cov2, when 60% of people are asymptomatic we know they haven't got covid19 and these will filter into death stats because 12,000 people a week die of many things and some of these will be sars-cov2 positive especially when we're in a large spike where like now we're seeing 120,000 cases a week but it could be in reality 300,000 cases a week. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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People with aids don't die of aids.
Aids weakens the immune system and the person then can die of illnesses which usually a health immune system would handle.
Does that means we shouldn't consider aids dangerous?
Covid-19 sends the immune system into overdrive, attacking healthy cells as well as infected, which is what happens when people end up on ventilators. They develop things like pneumonia.
Does that means we shouldn't consider covid-19 dangerous?
Too many people wear tinfoil hats this days, or imo we'd be done with this already. Everything is part of a grand scheme, rather than just being more of the chaos that is existing. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Sadly, people don’t like to acknowledge this because it shows that the world isn’t fair, it’s fundamentally a chaotic place where there is very little certainty.
People like simplicity and certainty, the world doesn’t provide this, so we alter it in our heads to become what we need it to be."
Exactly.
I think the reductive or simplification of reality is in part due to secularism.
I'm an atheist, but I think a lot of people who say they're not religious need that feeling of somebody tending to the light at the end of the tunnel. Good or bad.
We as a species clearly gravitate to that bollocks because it's across all ethnicities and cultures. |
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"I actually think as unpalatable as the deaths from it are. Its the overwhelming the hospitals that we have to avoid at all costs
Again I’d look at the numbers.
We have nightingales to help.
But haven’t got close to using them really.
And better treatment is helping, a combination of drugs is helping.
Is there enough trained staff to staff the nightingales as well as the existing hospitals? "
No there just is not the staff by that I mean all staff from porters & cleaners to doctors and nurses the nightingale hospitals are a last resort for the worst. A bit like attending a 20 vehicle RTC save how you can first if you first there you do what you can but might have to leave some one to dye to save 4 others |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"[Removed by poster at 28/10/20 14:28:33]"
So taking all this into account.. If we knew the true death statistics, I wonder would it still be more than an a flu year? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I think the problem is that yes somebody may be positive with covid at the time they die but actually it's a heart attack or a stroke that kills them.
It is impossible to know whether that person would have died from the heart attack in they didn't have covid and vise versa. In the same way I lost a friend who had a brain tumour but he actually died of an infection, he almost certainly wouldn't have died of the infection if he hadn't had the tumour. So there are many contributing factors. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"[Removed by poster at 28/10/20 14:28:33]
So taking all this into account.. If we knew the true death statistics, I wonder would it still be more than an a flu year? "
Yes because regardless of what the person has actually died of the death figures are up drastically from last year and the year before for the same time period. |
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"I do believe the "actual" number of deaths have been "WITH" covid and not "FROM" covid.. I.e, undiagnosed illnesses, cancer etc "
There was a doctor on the last leg Friday just gone who said most men over a certain age will have prostate cancer but it will be so mild they won't even know..
There is no random screening in relation to prostate for men when they reach a certain age..
Like this virus, how many women and men have something undetected going on and like those who have been diagnosed and are being treated or are clear are then comprised by covid ..
Not sure we will ever know.. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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From the onset the death figures have always been explained that most have other underlying health conditions of which some were life threatening others less so unless an incidence happen.
So it's hard to really determine the figures are deliberately being skewed.
Only thing certain is no matter how the figures are calculated there will always be those, especially on fab, who will say they are being skewed.
Bottom line. They were alive, now they are dead. A family grieves a loved one lost, while the masses argue if it was this or it was that.
Does it really matter? And if so I'd like someone to explain the real significance either way, because I don't see that it does. |
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ONS has now released the September death figures, it’s worth a read to understand how deaths are categorised, how many from covid and the excess death numbers compared to previous year / five year period |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"From the onset the death figures have always been explained that most have other underlying health conditions of which some were life threatening others less so unless an incidence happen.
So it's hard to really determine the figures are deliberately being skewed.
Only thing certain is no matter how the figures are calculated there will always be those, especially on fab, who will say they are being skewed.
Bottom line. They were alive, now they are dead. A family grieves a loved one lost, while the masses argue if it was this or it was that.
Does it really matter? And if so I'd like someone to explain the real significance either way, because I don't see that it does. "
It matters not to the family or the person but it really does help when trying to fight this disease, knowing who and why it targets certain individuals really is very important. |
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By *ax777Man
over a year ago
Not here |
"[Removed by poster at 28/10/20 14:28:33]
So taking all this into account.. If we knew the true death statistics, I wonder would it still be more than an a flu year? "
We do know the true death statistics. They are 60K higher than the 5 year average! |
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By *mmmMaybeCouple
over a year ago
West Wales |
"[Removed by poster at 28/10/20 14:28:33]
So taking all this into account.. If we knew the true death statistics, I wonder would it still be more than an a flu year?
We do know the true death statistics. They are 60K higher than the 5 year average!"
As others have previously said, there are also others having had it who now have longer term health issues, these were first reported in Italy not long after this all started, We may not know the full effect of these for years.
On a personal note, as some may know our daughter is an ex cancer sufferer & now has one kidney & a few other altered bits inside. She's had two cv19 tests in four weeks, both negative due to her being off colour & the school requesting it.
Sunday we were advised that a classmate has cv19 so we need to isolate etc. Monday morning Cardiff Hospital (Shared care with Grt Ormond St) were on the phone asking after her health & advising us what to keep an eye on (not like we didn't know anyway) & They have said they will ring every other day until she is past the safe period.
No other parents in her class have received such a call we've checked.
But it's just flu really isn't it??
S |
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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago
(She/ her) in Sensualityland |
I am watching the situation in several European countries as I have friends and some relatives there.
Tbh they are concerned just as much as we are overhere. Only people who do not understand the virus (that is actually most of us) would doubt its short and long term danger and impact. |
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"[Removed by poster at 28/10/20 14:28:33]
So taking all this into account.. If we knew the true death statistics, I wonder would it still be more than an a flu year? "
Yes it would since flu deaths they have varies between 1500 to 26000 the average is around 15000. Covid is much much higher than that already and we still have over 2 months to go. Flu deaths would obvious be lower with social distancing and hygiene measures in place. |
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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago
(She/ her) in Sensualityland |
"[Removed by poster at 28/10/20 14:28:33]
So taking all this into account.. If we knew the true death statistics, I wonder would it still be more than an a flu year?
Yes it would since flu deaths they have varies between 1500 to 26000 the average is around 15000. Covid is much much higher than that already and we still have over 2 months to go. Flu deaths would obvious be lower with social distancing and hygiene measures in place. "
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"Focused Protection protect the most vulnerable and have things in place to protect them. we need to get back to normal and go on with our lives. Also the have used terms that unless you do your own digging make it seem notice the there have replaced quoting numbers to percentages because it trigger that fear in a certain select of people aka the doom and gloomers. We need to face facts the virus is here to stay we need to feed a way to live with it that beneficial to all sides and Lockdowns aren't the answer to it."
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The actual number of deaths where somebody was perfectly well , then caught the virus and consequently died , is 307...that figure comes from the ONS not me ...seems silly shutting the whole country down for that ..."
There are 3.9 million people with diabetes, 3 million with COPD, 8 million people with asthma, and 14.1 million disabled people in the UK. All of these people are at greater risk when it comes to Covid19. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Focused Protection protect the most vulnerable and have things in place to protect them. we need to get back to normal and go on with our lives. Also the have used terms that unless you do your own digging make it seem notice the there have replaced quoting numbers to percentages because it trigger that fear in a certain select of people aka the doom and gloomers. We need to face facts the virus is here to stay we need to feed a way to live with it that beneficial to all sides and Lockdowns aren't the answer to it."
How do you propose to protect the ‘most’ vulnerable, and where is the line between vulnerable and most vulnerable drawn? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Focused Protection protect the most vulnerable and have things in place to protect them. we need to get back to normal and go on with our lives. Also the have used terms that unless you do your own digging make it seem notice the there have replaced quoting numbers to percentages because it trigger that fear in a certain select of people aka the doom and gloomers. We need to face facts the virus is here to stay we need to feed a way to live with it that beneficial to all sides and Lockdowns aren't the answer to it.
How do you propose to protect the ‘most’ vulnerable, and where is the line between vulnerable and most vulnerable drawn?"
Exactly. Also people are forgetting long covid too which actually seems to be impacting on younger people quite a bit. If it was a simple as learning to live with this I really do believe many countries would have done it and as far as I can see there's 2 that have just let this go.
We are only really about 8 months into this which seems like a really long time because our lives have been so disrupted but actually it's still really early days and we have no real idea of what the long term implications of this virus is going to be so restrictions have to be put in place. |
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Perhaps those that don't trust the figures from the UK goverment should take a few minutes to look at the worldwide number
44 million infections
1.25 million dead
That's a fair big number, quite a lot more than the 0.0003% Karen talks about |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Perhaps those that don't trust the figures from the UK goverment should take a few minutes to look at the worldwide number
44 million infections
1.25 million dead
That's a fair big number, quite a lot more than the 0.0003% Karen talks about"
And of course in reality both of those numbers are much higher, It's really a scary thought. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Please give some examples of Focused Protection and what "things in place" to protect vulnerable people are?
and further explain how you would protect a diabetic 50/60 year old who still needs to go out to work every day....ask him to stay at home indefinately...????
I get the impression that some want the vulnerable just hidden away like lepers... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" Please give some examples of Focused Protection and what "things in place" to protect vulnerable people are?
and further explain how you would protect a diabetic 50/60 year old who still needs to go out to work every day....ask him to stay at home indefinately...????
I get the impression that some want the vulnerable just hidden away like lepers..."
23% of all deaths from covid have been in people with diabetes and actually there are 22,000 People under 17's in the UK that have diabetes. And And its estimated that a further 33% of diabetics are under 50.
Diabetes was originally going to come under the shielding group however there is 3.5 million of us. |
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"There has been calls to release the death figures but I bet that won't happen. You can die from a heart attack but if you have covid you are still added to the covid case numbers. Im not doubting the virus exist, My dad still in Hospital with it but I do think there something not right. I think this government are worried that a lot of people are seeing through the lies they have spun and it leading to civil unrest and just now you have tory rebels trying to get other politicians onside to end the lockdowns and find a other way to deal with this madness
People can die from a stroke but have terminal cancer. They get added to the cancer figures. Is that wrong too?"
Actually,they dont, unless the cancer has caused the stroke. |
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"If you look at studies of ‘excess deaths’ (clearly one death should be regarded as excess!), this shows that compared to the ‘average’ deaths in the UK, this year is already 38% greater. On average ~ 600,000 people diein the UK of all causes. On this basis, by March next year we will have had over 200,000 excess deaths in the UK. Are they all Covid, of course not, but it is quite clear that Covid has resulted in significant increase in the death rate of this country and pretty much all others.
Arguing that Covid has little impact, or it is a ‘fraud’ does not help the famillies and friends who have lost people to Covid. Many of these people have been elderly, but they still deserved a chance to have had a longer life.
Covid kills people
Ignorance and stupidity help covid kill.
"
& your comment meant what? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Poverty kills more than most in that respect in helping people to die which is why I've always said there needs to be a balance between saving what lives you can now and those your actions will just as surely kill in the future. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"From the onset the death figures have always been explained that most have other underlying health conditions of which some were life threatening others less so unless an incidence happen.
So it's hard to really determine the figures are deliberately being skewed.
Only thing certain is no matter how the figures are calculated there will always be those, especially on fab, who will say they are being skewed.
Bottom line. They were alive, now they are dead. A family grieves a loved one lost, while the masses argue if it was this or it was that.
Does it really matter? And if so I'd like someone to explain the real significance either way, because I don't see that it does.
It matters not to the family or the person but it really does help when trying to fight this disease, knowing who and why it targets certain individuals really is very important."
Not sure it targets anyone. People put themselves in its harm's way by their social activities.
What will really help fight it is if people changed their selfish mindsets and try and behave in a more responsible way looking out for others rather than themselves. This would be the biggest gain towards curbing it's spread. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"On average there are 450 deaths per day of cancer, and 460 deaths per day from heart attack. That's in the whole of the UK.
Figures are from British Heart Foundation and Cancer research."
Good job they are not a respiratory transmittable diseases eh... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
" Please give some examples of Focused Protection and what "things in place" to protect vulnerable people are?
and further explain how you would protect a diabetic 50/60 year old who still needs to go out to work every day....ask him to stay at home indefinately...????
I get the impression that some want the vulnerable just hidden away like lepers..."
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"From the onset the death figures have always been explained that most have other underlying health conditions of which some were life threatening others less so unless an incidence happen.
So it's hard to really determine the figures are deliberately being skewed.
Only thing certain is no matter how the figures are calculated there will always be those, especially on fab, who will say they are being skewed.
Bottom line. They were alive, now they are dead. A family grieves a loved one lost, while the masses argue if it was this or it was that.
Does it really matter? And if so I'd like someone to explain the real significance either way, because I don't see that it does.
It matters not to the family or the person but it really does help when trying to fight this disease, knowing who and why it targets certain individuals really is very important.
Not sure it targets anyone. People put themselves in its harm's way by their social activities.
What will really help fight it is if people changed their selfish mindsets and try and behave in a more responsible way looking out for others rather than themselves. This would be the biggest gain towards curbing it's spread."
That's literally rubbish, it does target everyone but unfortunately some are more prone to then getting covid19, if we had a good understanding of why those are prone to getting covid19 and others not then it really helps fight the problem, the more data we get the easier and less costlier it becomes to fight it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If a building is burning you extinguish the flames and then worry about stabilising the structure."
Again that's totally rubbish, no fire brigade would enter a building that's unstable to fight a fire, it's a cost benefit analysis, how many do we save and how much do we risk killing others in the benefit of saving the ones we know are already at risk!.
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"If a building is burning you extinguish the flames and then worry about stabilising the structure.
Again that's totally rubbish, no fire brigade would enter a building that's unstable to fight a fire, it's a cost benefit analysis, how many do we save and how much do we risk killing others in the benefit of saving the ones we know are already at risk!.
"
Your opinion, my neighbour told me that quote yesterday. He's a fire commander by the way ..
Seems the Irish, Spanish, Italians, Germans and French don't agree with your strategy either.
What do they know ... eh ? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If a building is burning you extinguish the flames and then worry about stabilising the structure.
Again that's totally rubbish, no fire brigade would enter a building that's unstable to fight a fire, it's a cost benefit analysis, how many do we save and how much do we risk killing others in the benefit of saving the ones we know are already at risk!.
Your opinion, my neighbour told me that quote yesterday. He's a fire commander by the way ..
Seems the Irish, Spanish, Italians, Germans and French don't agree with your strategy either.
What do they know ... eh ?"
I call bollocks on that, if you want you can go and read the fire brigades own rules for entering unstable buildings, it's right there on there own website. |
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"There has been calls to release the death figures but I bet that won't happen. You can die from a heart attack but if you have covid you are still added to the covid case numbers. Im not doubting the virus exist, My dad still in Hospital with it but I do think there something not right. I think this government are worried that a lot of people are seeing through the lies they have spun and it leading to civil unrest and just now you have tory rebels trying to get other politicians onside to end the lockdowns and find a other way to deal with this madness
People can die from a stroke but have terminal cancer. They get added to the cancer figures. Is that wrong too?
Actually,they dont, unless the cancer has caused the stroke."
Yes, that was exactly my point. |
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"The number of people who have a positive Covid result and then get hit by a car within 28 days is not going to be very large - that argument is pretty pointless."
I would question if this has actually happened. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The only thing we can do is advise - not force - the vulnerable to lock themselves down and give them every assistance and all the information they need to keep themselves as safe as they can.
And then leave it up to them to do it - or not - and let the rest of society get back to normal.
We can’t go on bringing society and the economy to regular standstills.
Sorry but the interests of the majority have to take precedence over those of the minority.
We don’t ban cars from the roads because elderly and sick and disabled people have to cross the road.
We have a variety of assistances such as speed limits and pedestrian crossings and so on to help them but road traffic goes on.
This is the only way we can live with this. And we are going to have to sooner or later. |
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By *om girlCouple (FF)
over a year ago
South Yorkshire |
My mate bro died of something else and had covid on death Certificate
The government changed way they register death amd with covid no
Other test are carried out
I also read only 68 people died of flue so where all other death figure coz surely covid camt be killing everyone |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I have a friend who lost their grandma in the height of lockdown.
She was battling cancer, was diagnosed as terminal and receiving end of life care.
Her death was put down to Covid
I’ve got to meet 118 families, all of which have lost someone they loved, all to covid 19... my ‘work mates’ all have very similar tally’s.
To make the obvious point, anyone with a serious form of cancer contracting covid-19 is extremely high risk.
Yeah I’m not denying that and I am by no means denying the severity of the virus whatsoever, i’m just saying that it’s obviously very difficult to differentiate between whether it was Covid or the cancer that caused the death.
I suppose it would be interesting to know what was listed as cause of death on the certificate as there were rumours that underlying heath issues weren’t being mentioned "
It would list cancer as cause of death.. there is section says other contributing illnesses that would then say Covid. It would be counted as Covid death by government. |
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"I have a friend who lost their grandma in the height of lockdown.
She was battling cancer, was diagnosed as terminal and receiving end of life care.
Her death was put down to Covid
I’ve got to meet 118 families, all of which have lost someone they loved, all to covid 19... my ‘work mates’ all have very similar tally’s.
To make the obvious point, anyone with a serious form of cancer contracting covid-19 is extremely high risk.
Yeah I’m not denying that and I am by no means denying the severity of the virus whatsoever, i’m just saying that it’s obviously very difficult to differentiate between whether it was Covid or the cancer that caused the death.
I suppose it would be interesting to know what was listed as cause of death on the certificate as there were rumours that underlying heath issues weren’t being mentioned
It would list cancer as cause of death.. there is section says other contributing illnesses that would then say Covid. It would be counted as Covid death by government."
Not necessarily. If for example the cancer had affected the body so much she could have had a stroke. This would have been was caused the death so would have been listed as main cause. The cancer and covid would have been listed as other factors. That is my understanding.
But yes, you are right. Covid would have been mentioned and therefore it is counted in government stats. Without the covid she may have lived for a few more hours, days or even weeks. |
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"I have a friend who lost their grandma in the height of lockdown.
She was battling cancer, was diagnosed as terminal and receiving end of life care.
Her death was put down to Covid
I’ve got to meet 118 families, all of which have lost someone they loved, all to covid 19... my ‘work mates’ all have very similar tally’s.
To make the obvious point, anyone with a serious form of cancer contracting covid-19 is extremely high risk.
Yeah I’m not denying that and I am by no means denying the severity of the virus whatsoever, i’m just saying that it’s obviously very difficult to differentiate between whether it was Covid or the cancer that caused the death.
I suppose it would be interesting to know what was listed as cause of death on the certificate as there were rumours that underlying heath issues weren’t being mentioned
It would list cancer as cause of death.. there is section says other contributing illnesses that would then say Covid. It would be counted as Covid death by government.
Not necessarily. If for example the cancer had affected the body so much she could have had a stroke. This would have been was caused the death so would have been listed as main cause. The cancer and covid would have been listed as other factors. That is my understanding.
But yes, you are right. Covid would have been mentioned and therefore it is counted in government stats. Without the covid she may have lived for a few more hours, days or even weeks."
And of course this happens daily accounting for most of the 300+... Seems a bit of a trend though as it was in single figures a few weeks ago. Maybe they all want to die before their families waste money on Christmas presents. All a bit of a coincidence if you ask me but if it justifies having a few people round for dinner it's ok |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"From the onset the death figures have always been explained that most have other underlying health conditions of which some were life threatening others less so unless an incidence happen.
So it's hard to really determine the figures are deliberately being skewed.
Only thing certain is no matter how the figures are calculated there will always be those, especially on fab, who will say they are being skewed.
Bottom line. They were alive, now they are dead. A family grieves a loved one lost, while the masses argue if it was this or it was that.
Does it really matter? And if so I'd like someone to explain the real significance either way, because I don't see that it does.
It matters not to the family or the person but it really does help when trying to fight this disease, knowing who and why it targets certain individuals really is very important.
Not sure it targets anyone. People put themselves in its harm's way by their social activities.
What will really help fight it is if people changed their selfish mindsets and try and behave in a more responsible way looking out for others rather than themselves. This would be the biggest gain towards curbing it's spread.
That's literally rubbish, it does target everyone but unfortunately some are more prone to then getting covid19, if we had a good understanding of why those are prone to getting covid19 and others not then it really helps fight the problem, the more data we get the easier and less costlier it becomes to fight it. "
Complete nonsense. No it doesn't target anyone, it doesn't search out people and get them, stop avoiding personal responsibility of people and their behaviour and actions. People put themselves and others in its way and as a result catch it and pass it on to others. Those more vulnerable suffer worse as a result. If you haven't understood that no amount of data will help you. |
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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago
(She/ her) in Sensualityland |
"
Complete nonsense. No it doesn't target anyone, it doesn't search out people and get them, stop avoiding personal responsibility of people and their behaviour and actions. People put themselves and others in its way and as a result catch it and pass it on to others. Those more vulnerable suffer worse as a result. If you haven't understood that no amount of data will help you."
Precisely - our own actions, individually and collectively as well as our own personal life style and health status (diabetes, obesity, age, hypertension) make us more vulnerable. |
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"If a building is burning you extinguish the flames and then worry about stabilising the structure.
Again that's totally rubbish, no fire brigade would enter a building that's unstable to fight a fire, it's a cost benefit analysis, how many do we save and how much do we risk killing others in the benefit of saving the ones we know are already at risk!.
Your opinion, my neighbour told me that quote yesterday. He's a fire commander by the way ..
Seems the Irish, Spanish, Italians, Germans and French don't agree with your strategy either.
What do they know ... eh ?
I call bollocks on that, if you want you can go and read the fire brigades own rules for entering unstable buildings, it's right there on there own website."
Fire service policies and procedures are very specific in a lot of areas, in effect they are corporate in intent but do not and never can cover every scenario..
The call eventually comes down to the Incident commander, policies when stretched are a learning opportunity if all goes well and if it doesn't then they can end up in censure, disciplinary action or even gross negligence manslaughter..
Grenfell was a big learning opportunity whereby umpteen core policies were knowingly broken .. |
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"Yep, they are heavily skewing the statistics to make it sound and look much much worse than it actually is.
Scaremongering as usual tbh.
Don't get me wrong, I am not a covid denier, and I understand the severity of the virus, but nobody is benefitting from overly inflated statistics."
From a political perspective I can't imagine what Boris Johnson and the Tories have to gain by inflating the death figures of a virus they are unable to control. |
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"Yep, they are heavily skewing the statistics to make it sound and look much much worse than it actually is.
Scaremongering as usual tbh.
Don't get me wrong, I am not a covid denier, and I understand the severity of the virus, but nobody is benefitting from overly inflated statistics.
From a political perspective I can't imagine what Boris Johnson and the Tories have to gain by inflating the death figures of a virus they are unable to control."
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"Has anybody noticed that they figures are “people who died within 28 days of testing positive for the virus” ?
The figures show anybody who dies regardless of the actual cause of death. Yes, they will include deaths from the virus. But they can include people who have died from heart attacks not related to the actual virus, for example. Technically they are including people who may have died from accidents as well.
We are not saying it’s open silly season and not to worry. We do worry about it. But the “real” figures would be interesting.
Stay safe. "
Well let’s put it this way.. at the beginning of September there were hardly any Covid related deaths a day, there are now over 300 a day being recorded.. if Covid isn’t the main driver behind these deaths then there must surely be data to show none Covid deaths falling by a corresponding 300 deaths a day? |
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"If a building is burning you extinguish the flames and then worry about stabilising the structure.
Again that's totally rubbish, no fire brigade would enter a building that's unstable to fight a fire, it's a cost benefit analysis, how many do we save and how much do we risk killing others in the benefit of saving the ones we know are already at risk!.
Your opinion, my neighbour told me that quote yesterday. He's a fire commander by the way ..
Seems the Irish, Spanish, Italians, Germans and French don't agree with your strategy either.
What do they know ... eh ?
I call bollocks on that, if you want you can go and read the fire brigades own rules for entering unstable buildings, it's right there on there own website."
Did I say anything about entering an unstable building ?
Google "primark belfast" he was there.
Anyway let's change the subject when one argument fails lol |
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"Has anybody noticed that they figures are “people who died within 28 days of testing positive for the virus” ?
The figures show anybody who dies regardless of the actual cause of death. Yes, they will include deaths from the virus. But they can include people who have died from heart attacks not related to the actual virus, for example. Technically they are including people who may have died from accidents as well.
We are not saying it’s open silly season and not to worry. We do worry about it. But the “real” figures would be interesting.
Stay safe.
Well let’s put it this way.. at the beginning of September there were hardly any Covid related deaths a day, there are now over 300 a day being recorded.. if Covid isn’t the main driver behind these deaths then there must surely be data to show none Covid deaths falling by a corresponding 300 deaths a day?"
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