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Uk to set up Vaccine Passports all over the news today
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"How could people who can't get vaccinated get a vaccine passport? It would make the whole thing pointless. " This is how herd immunity works. There's a small subset of the population who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons. If enough people are vaccinated, spread is rapidly halted. If enough people are not vaccinated, spread continues. | |||
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"How could people who can't get vaccinated get a vaccine passport? It would make the whole thing pointless. This is how herd immunity works. There's a small subset of the population who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons. If enough people are vaccinated, spread is rapidly halted. If enough people are not vaccinated, spread continues." But that doesn't answer my question.  | |||
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"How could people who can't get vaccinated get a vaccine passport? It would make the whole thing pointless. This is how herd immunity works. There's a small subset of the population who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons. If enough people are vaccinated, spread is rapidly halted. If enough people are not vaccinated, spread continues. But that doesn't answer my question. "It doesn't make it pointless, it radically reduces the number of unvaccinated people in an area to (likely) within acceptable bounds of risk. We also accept that exceptions exist on medical or compassionate grounds in every area of life. It's not a 100% foolproof system, but it fits within existing norms and practices | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"How could people who can't get vaccinated get a vaccine passport? It would make the whole thing pointless. This is how herd immunity works. There's a small subset of the population who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons. If enough people are vaccinated, spread is rapidly halted. If enough people are not vaccinated, spread continues. But that doesn't answer my question.
It doesn't make it pointless, it radically reduces the number of unvaccinated people in an area to (likely) within acceptable bounds of risk.
We also accept that exceptions exist on medical or compassionate grounds in every area of life.
It's not a 100% foolproof system, but it fits within existing norms and practices "100% of the people in that location may have vaccine passports via exemption. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"How could people who can't get vaccinated get a vaccine passport? It would make the whole thing pointless. This is how herd immunity works. There's a small subset of the population who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons. If enough people are vaccinated, spread is rapidly halted. If enough people are not vaccinated, spread continues." Herd immunity doesn't work. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"How could people who can't get vaccinated get a vaccine passport? It would make the whole thing pointless. This is how herd immunity works. There's a small subset of the population who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons. If enough people are vaccinated, spread is rapidly halted. If enough people are not vaccinated, spread continues. But that doesn't answer my question.
It doesn't make it pointless, it radically reduces the number of unvaccinated people in an area to (likely) within acceptable bounds of risk.
We also accept that exceptions exist on medical or compassionate grounds in every area of life.
It's not a 100% foolproof system, but it fits within existing norms and practices
100% of the people in that location may have vaccine passports via exemption. "extremely highly unlikely tho | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"How could people who can't get vaccinated get a vaccine passport? It would make the whole thing pointless. This is how herd immunity works. There's a small subset of the population who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons. If enough people are vaccinated, spread is rapidly halted. If enough people are not vaccinated, spread continues. But that doesn't answer my question.
It doesn't make it pointless, it radically reduces the number of unvaccinated people in an area to (likely) within acceptable bounds of risk.
We also accept that exceptions exist on medical or compassionate grounds in every area of life.
It's not a 100% foolproof system, but it fits within existing norms and practices
100% of the people in that location may have vaccine passports via exemption. "In which case we're in trouble | |||
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"How could people who can't get vaccinated get a vaccine passport? It would make the whole thing pointless. This is how herd immunity works. There's a small subset of the population who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons. If enough people are vaccinated, spread is rapidly halted. If enough people are not vaccinated, spread continues. Herd immunity doesn't work." Oh? Herd immunity via vaccination is impossible? We're currently shut down over a disease with an R0 of 2-3. Measles has an R0 of 15-20. Why isn't it rampaging, please?  | |||
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"It's an idea. Can't see it being implimented though. " This from a country who even yet keeps letting people in from all countries.... Yeah can see that happening. | |||
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" https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/02/05/travel-news-covid-quarantine-hotels-uk-flights-vaccine-passports/ https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/government-plans-covid-vaccine-passports-to-allow-foreign-holidays-3mc9vd0xk https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-planning-covid-19-vaccine-19774107.amp I could have linked far more but I'm not risking a ban. Looks like this really could be happening then? Would this system them make it easier for UK businesses e.g. nightclubs, concerts, swinging clubs ask for the vaccine passport before entry? Now that 15 - 20% (ish) of the population has already been vaccinated and continues to happen at a rapid pace. Its fair to say that by Autumn every adult over 18 yrs will have been given the chance of vaccination. As long as those who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons also get a vaccine passport then I see this as a way to help us get closer to normal one day. KJ " Well as you can buy Covid test certificates on the web now I can see a great industry for these as well. | |||
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"How could people who can't get vaccinated get a vaccine passport? It would make the whole thing pointless. This is how herd immunity works. There's a small subset of the population who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons. If enough people are vaccinated, spread is rapidly halted. If enough people are not vaccinated, spread continues. Herd immunity doesn't work. Oh? Herd immunity via vaccination is impossible? We're currently shut down over a disease with an R0 of 2-3. Measles has an R0 of 15-20. Why isn't it rampaging, please? "5g masts kill measles.. Its well known down my way. | |||
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" https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/02/05/travel-news-covid-quarantine-hotels-uk-flights-vaccine-passports/ https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/government-plans-covid-vaccine-passports-to-allow-foreign-holidays-3mc9vd0xk https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-planning-covid-19-vaccine-19774107.amp I could have linked far more but I'm not risking a ban. Looks like this really could be happening then? Would this system them make it easier for UK businesses e.g. nightclubs, concerts, swinging clubs ask for the vaccine passport before entry? Now that 15 - 20% (ish) of the population has already been vaccinated and continues to happen at a rapid pace. Its fair to say that by Autumn every adult over 18 yrs will have been given the chance of vaccination. As long as those who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons also get a vaccine passport then I see this as a way to help us get closer to normal one day. KJ Well as you can buy Covid test certificates on the web now I can see a great industry for these as well." While I'm sure some will attempt to falsify documents, I'm also sure that the criminal law will have things to say about that. Vaccination is a personal choice (with societal consequences). Falsifying documents is not a personal choice. | |||
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"How could people who can't get vaccinated get a vaccine passport? It would make the whole thing pointless. This is how herd immunity works. There's a small subset of the population who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons. If enough people are vaccinated, spread is rapidly halted. If enough people are not vaccinated, spread continues. Herd immunity doesn't work. Oh? Herd immunity via vaccination is impossible? We're currently shut down over a disease with an R0 of 2-3. Measles has an R0 of 15-20. Why isn't it rampaging, please?
5g masts kill measles.. Its well known down my way. " | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door?" But surely it’s no different than a passport that you need to travel anyway ? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"How could people who can't get vaccinated get a vaccine passport? It would make the whole thing pointless. This is how herd immunity works. There's a small subset of the population who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons. If enough people are vaccinated, spread is rapidly halted. If enough people are not vaccinated, spread continues. Herd immunity doesn't work. Oh? Herd immunity via vaccination is impossible? We're currently shut down over a disease with an R0 of 2-3. Measles has an R0 of 15-20. Why isn't it rampaging, please?
5g masts kill measles.. Its well known down my way. "No 5g here so I concreted all my garden to stop the measles digging up and running wild. | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door?" ok so is a passport or a driving license or a birth certificate an ID card by the same measure ? | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door? But surely it’s no different than a passport that you need to travel anyway ? " Yes but I didn't have a passport until I was 37 and was able to do almost everything in my life other than travel, would a vaccine passport stop someone from doing everyday things. | |||
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"How could people who can't get vaccinated get a vaccine passport? It would make the whole thing pointless. This is how herd immunity works. There's a small subset of the population who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons. If enough people are vaccinated, spread is rapidly halted. If enough people are not vaccinated, spread continues. Herd immunity doesn't work." Source? You've seen Measles and how that was contained well in many places, until antivax influences, including daily fail, pushed us until we became vulnerable, I assume? Vaccine passports will probably be used by some countries, to try to avoid the undesirable, in their opinion, from wreaking havoc, that their more intelligent strategies have prevented, unlike others. They may still continue to want negative test results before travel. I'm uncertain that places in the UK would want them, unless local authorities made them a condition of licensing | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door?ok so is a passport or a driving license or a birth certificate an ID card by the same measure ? " Maybe but I have never had a driving licence or I didn't have a passport till last year and was able to do everything other that travel abroad. It is reasonable to be asked to prove your identity but is it reasonable to prove that you had a vaccine? I'm all for vaccines, I've had every vaccine that's ever been offered to me and will do in the future on just a little bit concerned about where this could end up. | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door?" If just wanted for international travel, people will already be carrying an ID card, in the form of their passport. | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door?ok so is a passport or a driving license or a birth certificate an ID card by the same measure ? Maybe but I have never had a driving licence or I didn't have a passport till last year and was able to do everything other that travel abroad. It is reasonable to be asked to prove your identity but is it reasonable to prove that you had a vaccine? I'm all for vaccines, I've had every vaccine that's ever been offered to me and will do in the future on just a little bit concerned about where this could end up." Why is it unreasonable to prove you've had a vaccine? Genuine question. | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door? If just wanted for international travel, people will already be carrying an ID card, in the form of their passport. " And i don't have a problem with that, but what if a restaurant won't let you in unless You can prove you have had the covid vaccination. Then are children not gonna be allowed into school if they haven't had certain vaccines so my point is where does it end. | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door?ok so is a passport or a driving license or a birth certificate an ID card by the same measure ? Maybe but I have never had a driving licence or I didn't have a passport till last year and was able to do everything other that travel abroad. It is reasonable to be asked to prove your identity but is it reasonable to prove that you had a vaccine? I'm all for vaccines, I've had every vaccine that's ever been offered to me and will do in the future on just a little bit concerned about where this could end up. Why is it unreasonable to prove you've had a vaccine? Genuine question." Because there will be reasons why people don't want it and I might not agree with those but people's lives shouldn't be curtailed simply because they won't have an injection. If it's just travel then I don't see the issue but I don't think it will end there. | |||
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"It's an idea. Can't see it being implimented though. "  | |||
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"A vaccine passport is great idea. We already need visas to visit some countries .Vaccination proof too. It's simple and effective. (I'm talking overseas travel )" I agree 100% maybe for a couple of years | |||
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"Hopefully doesn't become a prerequisite for travel as we are unlikely to have been offered the vaccine before our ferries to France for the Summer." Doubt France will allow plague rats from The UK in this summer deffo not without a vaccine | |||
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" Because there will be reasons why people don't want it and I might not agree with those but people's lives shouldn't be curtailed simply because they won't have an injection. If it's just travel then I don't see the issue but I don't think it will end there. " I see this as actions and consequences. If enough people don't have the jab lives will continue to be endangered (or reduced through long term health consequences). Those who don't have the jab will continue to be a bigger risk to those who can't have the jab. No one is forcing anyone to have the jab, but some places/ countries may choose to protect their customers/ residents from those who do not choose to do their part. It's the free market in action: choices have consequences. You can still choose as you please. | |||
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"How could people who can't get vaccinated get a vaccine passport? It would make the whole thing pointless. This is how herd immunity works. There's a small subset of the population who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons. If enough people are vaccinated, spread is rapidly halted. If enough people are not vaccinated, spread continues. Herd immunity doesn't work." The weight of evidence with diseases being eradicated and controlled says it does. What new insight do you have? | |||
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"if a vaccine passport and i mean if is passed and deemed ok to use then it will open the floodgates of employers wanting the same for there work force the gray bits will become black and white ... and before people strat saying well it the persons choice i agree 100% but that wont stop some choices being taken away" Anti vaxxers choose to not be vaccinated with that choice comes consequence. You cannot have your cake (ie no vaccine) and eat it (ie reap the rewards of returned society) ... people who cannot have the vaccine for health reasons deserve protection by the people that can. | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door? If just wanted for international travel, people will already be carrying an ID card, in the form of their passport. And i don't have a problem with that, but what if a restaurant won't let you in unless You can prove you have had the covid vaccination. Then are children not gonna be allowed into school if they haven't had certain vaccines so my point is where does it end. " Children, vaccines and starting school is something they are already thinking about prior to covid more so after we lost our measles eradication status | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door?ok so is a passport or a driving license or a birth certificate an ID card by the same measure ? Maybe but I have never had a driving licence or I didn't have a passport till last year and was able to do everything other that travel abroad. It is reasonable to be asked to prove your identity but is it reasonable to prove that you had a vaccine? I'm all for vaccines, I've had every vaccine that's ever been offered to me and will do in the future on just a little bit concerned about where this could end up." a vaccine passport is just that , you only apply for one if you want to pass through foreign ports , it's a choice we all have to travel , I'm all for countries taking measures to minimise the possibility of a future pandemic , whether the vaccine documentation become relevant for more of our daily activities remains to be seen and I don't have a problem with having to produce proof of vaccination to access cinemas, nightclubs, restaurants, leisure centre etc , we have got to do something to try and stop this type of thing of having such detramental effects on our future lives and for those who come after us | |||
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" Because there will be reasons why people don't want it and I might not agree with those but people's lives shouldn't be curtailed simply because they won't have an injection. If it's just travel then I don't see the issue but I don't think it will end there. I see this as actions and consequences. If enough people don't have the jab lives will continue to be endangered (or reduced through long term health consequences). Those who don't have the jab will continue to be a bigger risk to those who can't have the jab. No one is forcing anyone to have the jab, but some places/ countries may choose to protect their customers/ residents from those who do not choose to do their part. It's the free market in action: choices have consequences. You can still choose as you please." Ha that’ll teach me not to read the whole thread .. exactly this. | |||
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" Because there will be reasons why people don't want it and I might not agree with those but people's lives shouldn't be curtailed simply because they won't have an injection. If it's just travel then I don't see the issue but I don't think it will end there. I see this as actions and consequences. If enough people don't have the jab lives will continue to be endangered (or reduced through long term health consequences). Those who don't have the jab will continue to be a bigger risk to those who can't have the jab. No one is forcing anyone to have the jab, but some places/ countries may choose to protect their customers/ residents from those who do not choose to do their part. It's the free market in action: choices have consequences. You can still choose as you please." I agree wholeheartedly. | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door? But surely it’s no different than a passport that you need to travel anyway ? " A driving license to drive A credit card to pay for anything A mobile phone...all are pretty ubiquitous now... | |||
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" Because there will be reasons why people don't want it and I might not agree with those but people's lives shouldn't be curtailed simply because they won't have an injection. If it's just travel then I don't see the issue but I don't think it will end there. I see this as actions and consequences. If enough people don't have the jab lives will continue to be endangered (or reduced through long term health consequences). Those who don't have the jab will continue to be a bigger risk to those who can't have the jab. No one is forcing anyone to have the jab, but some places/ countries may choose to protect their customers/ residents from those who do not choose to do their part. It's the free market in action: choices have consequences. You can still choose as you please." I just don't get it and yes if you don't want to have the vaccine then you may not be able to go to certain countries but what if then it makes you unemployable. That is not a choice that is force and that is what I don't like. Of course I'm talking hypothetically because I don't know what is going to happen but it is very possible that somebody won't be able to get a job if they choose not to have a vaccine. I am absolutely pro vaccine but I'm also pro free choice to choose what you put in your own body. | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door? But surely it’s no different than a passport that you need to travel anyway ? Yes but I didn't have a passport until I was 37 and was able to do almost everything in my life other than travel, would a vaccine passport stop someone from doing everyday things. " Not if you have one no. | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door? But surely it’s no different than a passport that you need to travel anyway ? A driving license to drive A credit card to pay for anything A mobile phone...all are pretty ubiquitous now... " But not having these things doesn't stop you entering a restaurant or applying for a job. | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door? If just wanted for international travel, people will already be carrying an ID card, in the form of their passport. And i don't have a problem with that, but what if a restaurant won't let you in unless You can prove you have had the covid vaccination. Then are children not gonna be allowed into school if they haven't had certain vaccines so my point is where does it end. " Which child do you choose. Billy, whose mum thinks vaccines cause autism, or Susie, who is recovering from cancer and would surely die needlessly if exposed to measles? | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door? If just wanted for international travel, people will already be carrying an ID card, in the form of their passport. And i don't have a problem with that, but what if a restaurant won't let you in unless You can prove you have had the covid vaccination. Then are children not gonna be allowed into school if they haven't had certain vaccines so my point is where does it end. Which child do you choose. Billy, whose mum thinks vaccines cause autism, or Susie, who is recovering from cancer and would surely die needlessly if exposed to measles?" Yup absolutely agree ... vaccine should be obligatory if vulnerable children are to be able to be in school. | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door?ok so is a passport or a driving license or a birth certificate an ID card by the same measure ? Maybe but I have never had a driving licence or I didn't have a passport till last year and was able to do everything other that travel abroad. It is reasonable to be asked to prove your identity but is it reasonable to prove that you had a vaccine? I'm all for vaccines, I've had every vaccine that's ever been offered to me and will do in the future on just a little bit concerned about where this could end up. Why is it unreasonable to prove you've had a vaccine? Genuine question." I think the concern is more around those that can’t have it rather than those that choose not to, if I was one of them I wouldn’t be happy my medical information in public to passport control or other places. If they do go down the vaccine certificate route, they need to ensure an appropriate certificate is issued to those who can’t have it or advised not to stating exempt | |||
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"How could people who can't get vaccinated get a vaccine passport? It would make the whole thing pointless. This is how herd immunity works. There's a small subset of the population who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons. If enough people are vaccinated, spread is rapidly halted. If enough people are not vaccinated, spread continues. Herd immunity doesn't work." The World Health Organisation don't agree with you. Should I email them to inform that a nekid man on the Internet says their wrong?  | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door?ok so is a passport or a driving license or a birth certificate an ID card by the same measure ? Maybe but I have never had a driving licence or I didn't have a passport till last year and was able to do everything other that travel abroad. It is reasonable to be asked to prove your identity but is it reasonable to prove that you had a vaccine? I'm all for vaccines, I've had every vaccine that's ever been offered to me and will do in the future on just a little bit concerned about where this could end up. Why is it unreasonable to prove you've had a vaccine? Genuine question. I think the concern is more around those that can’t have it rather than those that choose not to, if I was one of them I wouldn’t be happy my medical information in public to passport control or other places. If they do go down the vaccine certificate route, they need to ensure an appropriate certificate is issued to those who can’t have it or advised not to stating exempt " Surely an approved stamp is all that’s needed stamped by a medical professional indicated you have had the vaccine or cannot have it for medical reasons. covid approved or some such that way privacy for those with medical conditions is maintained. | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door? If just wanted for international travel, people will already be carrying an ID card, in the form of their passport. And i don't have a problem with that, but what if a restaurant won't let you in unless You can prove you have had the covid vaccination. Then are children not gonna be allowed into school if they haven't had certain vaccines so my point is where does it end. Which child do you choose. Billy, whose mum thinks vaccines cause autism, or Susie, who is recovering from cancer and would surely die needlessly if exposed to measles?" We have never made any form of vaccine mandatory in this country and having a vaccine passport is very close to that and people need To think of the consequences. What if Billy can't have a vaccine, should he be denied an education. Or Billies mum is anti-vaccine which is not billies fault should Billie also be denied an education? This is a real concern, We have to carful what we accept to solve one problem. | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door? If just wanted for international travel, people will already be carrying an ID card, in the form of their passport. And i don't have a problem with that, but what if a restaurant won't let you in unless You can prove you have had the covid vaccination. Then are children not gonna be allowed into school if they haven't had certain vaccines so my point is where does it end. " Well here's a thought.. There have been endless threads on here stating that schools are the hot bed of spreading and should be closed to stop the spread. Now if.... And it is a big if... This is indeed the case then absolutely school kids should be vaccinated because that is solving the problem of the biggest area of spreading... | |||
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" Because there will be reasons why people don't want it and I might not agree with those but people's lives shouldn't be curtailed simply because they won't have an injection. If it's just travel then I don't see the issue but I don't think it will end there. I see this as actions and consequences. If enough people don't have the jab lives will continue to be endangered (or reduced through long term health consequences). Those who don't have the jab will continue to be a bigger risk to those who can't have the jab. No one is forcing anyone to have the jab, but some places/ countries may choose to protect their customers/ residents from those who do not choose to do their part. It's the free market in action: choices have consequences. You can still choose as you please. I just don't get it and yes if you don't want to have the vaccine then you may not be able to go to certain countries but what if then it makes you unemployable. That is not a choice that is force and that is what I don't like. Of course I'm talking hypothetically because I don't know what is going to happen but it is very possible that somebody won't be able to get a job if they choose not to have a vaccine. I am absolutely pro vaccine but I'm also pro free choice to choose what you put in your own body." I think that might be a stretch. There are commentaries on the state of the law in the UK from various firms. If it's made a condition of employment, it would likely only be in health or social care, and even then we're not sure. (We do not, fortunately, have a US job system - I believe in the US they can absolutely mandate it, no exceptions). | |||
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" Because there will be reasons why people don't want it and I might not agree with those but people's lives shouldn't be curtailed simply because they won't have an injection. If it's just travel then I don't see the issue but I don't think it will end there. I see this as actions and consequences. If enough people don't have the jab lives will continue to be endangered (or reduced through long term health consequences). Those who don't have the jab will continue to be a bigger risk to those who can't have the jab. No one is forcing anyone to have the jab, but some places/ countries may choose to protect their customers/ residents from those who do not choose to do their part. It's the free market in action: choices have consequences. You can still choose as you please. I just don't get it and yes if you don't want to have the vaccine then you may not be able to go to certain countries but what if then it makes you unemployable. That is not a choice that is force and that is what I don't like. Of course I'm talking hypothetically because I don't know what is going to happen but it is very possible that somebody won't be able to get a job if they choose not to have a vaccine. I am absolutely pro vaccine but I'm also pro free choice to choose what you put in your own body. I think that might be a stretch. There are commentaries on the state of the law in the UK from various firms. If it's made a condition of employment, it would likely only be in health or social care, and even then we're not sure. (We do not, fortunately, have a US job system - I believe in the US they can absolutely mandate it, no exceptions)." But this is the point we don't know that, So we have to be careful what we accept. For travel not a problem if that is all it is needed for. | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door? If just wanted for international travel, people will already be carrying an ID card, in the form of their passport. And i don't have a problem with that, but what if a restaurant won't let you in unless You can prove you have had the covid vaccination. Then are children not gonna be allowed into school if they haven't had certain vaccines so my point is where does it end. Which child do you choose. Billy, whose mum thinks vaccines cause autism, or Susie, who is recovering from cancer and would surely die needlessly if exposed to measles? We have never made any form of vaccine mandatory in this country and having a vaccine passport is very close to that and people need To think of the consequences. What if Billy can't have a vaccine, should he be denied an education. Or Billies mum is anti-vaccine which is not billies fault should Billie also be denied an education? This is a real concern, We have to carful what we accept to solve one problem." Susie is someone who can't have a vaccine or who a vaccine doesn't protect. Unfortunately this becomes a zero sum game. Those without protection from vaccines through no fault of their own/ fault of their guardians (medically unable to take a vaccine, cancer, other immunosuppression) are put at incredible risk by those who don't want to/ whose parents don't vaccinate them. I would rather Billy have alternative arrangements than Susie die. And yeah, it comes down to that. I wish it didn't, but it does. | |||
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"I can't be arsed to read this thread but i can see that there are various points of view. Some will be right, some wrong, which means there will be lots of confusion, roll out will be a disaster, how it's administered internally and then externally, would anyone believe any documentation ultimately. but we will be in this, and then brexit for years, so life will be difficult I can't wait till they close this covid forum down. thought originally it would be a positive thing, but I really can't see it these days. People trying to out do one another, bringing up various stats etc, and then it gets personal which is not going to help anyone. We're all suffering now with mental illness, so I really wish admin would make this a covid free site." Firstly not everybody is suffering with mental health issues and secondly its in its own forum so those that want to talk about it can and those that don't can choose not to read it. What is the point in it being a covid free site because we don't live in a covid free society. | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door? If just wanted for international travel, people will already be carrying an ID card, in the form of their passport. And i don't have a problem with that, but what if a restaurant won't let you in unless You can prove you have had the covid vaccination. Then are children not gonna be allowed into school if they haven't had certain vaccines so my point is where does it end. Which child do you choose. Billy, whose mum thinks vaccines cause autism, or Susie, who is recovering from cancer and would surely die needlessly if exposed to measles? We have never made any form of vaccine mandatory in this country and having a vaccine passport is very close to that and people need To think of the consequences. What if Billy can't have a vaccine, should he be denied an education. Or Billies mum is anti-vaccine which is not billies fault should Billie also be denied an education? This is a real concern, We have to carful what we accept to solve one problem. Susie is someone who can't have a vaccine or who a vaccine doesn't protect. Unfortunately this becomes a zero sum game. Those without protection from vaccines through no fault of their own/ fault of their guardians (medically unable to take a vaccine, cancer, other immunosuppression) are put at incredible risk by those who don't want to/ whose parents don't vaccinate them. I would rather Billy have alternative arrangements than Susie die. And yeah, it comes down to that. I wish it didn't, but it does. " Getting behind the wheel of a car could kill someone so should nobody drive? | |||
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" Because there will be reasons why people don't want it and I might not agree with those but people's lives shouldn't be curtailed simply because they won't have an injection. If it's just travel then I don't see the issue but I don't think it will end there. I see this as actions and consequences. If enough people don't have the jab lives will continue to be endangered (or reduced through long term health consequences). Those who don't have the jab will continue to be a bigger risk to those who can't have the jab. No one is forcing anyone to have the jab, but some places/ countries may choose to protect their customers/ residents from those who do not choose to do their part. It's the free market in action: choices have consequences. You can still choose as you please. I just don't get it and yes if you don't want to have the vaccine then you may not be able to go to certain countries but what if then it makes you unemployable. That is not a choice that is force and that is what I don't like. Of course I'm talking hypothetically because I don't know what is going to happen but it is very possible that somebody won't be able to get a job if they choose not to have a vaccine. I am absolutely pro vaccine but I'm also pro free choice to choose what you put in your own body. I think that might be a stretch. There are commentaries on the state of the law in the UK from various firms. If it's made a condition of employment, it would likely only be in health or social care, and even then we're not sure. (We do not, fortunately, have a US job system - I believe in the US they can absolutely mandate it, no exceptions). But this is the point we don't know that, So we have to be careful what we accept. For travel not a problem if that is all it is needed for." I'm not concerned. Your mileage may vary. | |||
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"I can't be arsed to read this thread but i can see that there are various points of view. Some will be right, some wrong, which means there will be lots of confusion, roll out will be a disaster, how it's administered internally and then externally, would anyone believe any documentation ultimately. but we will be in this, and then brexit for years, so life will be difficult I can't wait till they close this covid forum down. thought originally it would be a positive thing, but I really can't see it these days. People trying to out do one another, bringing up various stats etc, and then it gets personal which is not going to help anyone. We're all suffering now with mental illness, so I really wish admin would make this a covid free site." Don't click on the Virus forum. The Lounge is pretty much covid free. | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door? If just wanted for international travel, people will already be carrying an ID card, in the form of their passport. And i don't have a problem with that, but what if a restaurant won't let you in unless You can prove you have had the covid vaccination. Then are children not gonna be allowed into school if they haven't had certain vaccines so my point is where does it end. Which child do you choose. Billy, whose mum thinks vaccines cause autism, or Susie, who is recovering from cancer and would surely die needlessly if exposed to measles? We have never made any form of vaccine mandatory in this country and having a vaccine passport is very close to that and people need To think of the consequences. What if Billy can't have a vaccine, should he be denied an education. Or Billies mum is anti-vaccine which is not billies fault should Billie also be denied an education? This is a real concern, We have to carful what we accept to solve one problem. Susie is someone who can't have a vaccine or who a vaccine doesn't protect. Unfortunately this becomes a zero sum game. Those without protection from vaccines through no fault of their own/ fault of their guardians (medically unable to take a vaccine, cancer, other immunosuppression) are put at incredible risk by those who don't want to/ whose parents don't vaccinate them. I would rather Billy have alternative arrangements than Susie die. And yeah, it comes down to that. I wish it didn't, but it does. Getting behind the wheel of a car could kill someone so should nobody drive? " Nope. We have safety measures and rules around driving, knowledge of conditions etc. We live the lives we lead relying on herd immunity from diseases like measles. (We have the road rules we do in part based on the kinds of cars we have and what we know about the humans that drive them). We choose. Do we prioritise vaccine choice or the health and safety of the vulnerable, particularly children? Why do we prioritise Billy's education over Susie's life? | |||
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"Proof of vaccination has been required for many years by countries, for things like yellow fever. The difference now is in the name, passport, so it sounds more ominous. Plus countries and airlines are wanting to see evidence before travelling is permitted. " You are so right . This is not a new thing. | |||
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"It's an idea. Can't see it being implimented though. This from a country who even yet keeps letting people in from all countries.... Yeah can see that happening. " I work overseas, so I like the fact I can get home. | |||
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"Proof of vaccination has been required for many years by countries, for things like yellow fever. The difference now is in the name, passport, so it sounds more ominous. Plus countries and airlines are wanting to see evidence before travelling is permitted. " exactly ! I don't know what all the fuss is about , if you want to travel overseas you may have to provide proof of vaccination , so what lol | |||
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Ohhhhh........they were right then. | |||
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"Proof of vaccination has been required for many years by countries, for things like yellow fever. The difference now is in the name, passport, so it sounds more ominous. Plus countries and airlines are wanting to see evidence before travelling is permitted. You are so right . This is not a new thing. " But moaning about it is.. Freeeeeedom! | |||
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"I can't be arsed to read this thread but i can see that there are various points of view. Some will be right, some wrong, which means there will be lots of confusion, roll out will be a disaster, how it's administered internally and then externally, would anyone believe any documentation ultimately. but we will be in this, and then brexit for years, so life will be difficult I can't wait till they close this covid forum down. thought originally it would be a positive thing, but I really can't see it these days. People trying to out do one another, bringing up various stats etc, and then it gets personal which is not going to help anyone. We're all suffering now with mental illness, so I really wish admin would make this a covid free site." Why go into the virus part of the forum then? Personally my mental health isn’t suffering .... it’s a big part of life to ignore it would be stupid l. | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door? If just wanted for international travel, people will already be carrying an ID card, in the form of their passport. And i don't have a problem with that, but what if a restaurant won't let you in unless You can prove you have had the covid vaccination. Then are children not gonna be allowed into school if they haven't had certain vaccines so my point is where does it end. Which child do you choose. Billy, whose mum thinks vaccines cause autism, or Susie, who is recovering from cancer and would surely die needlessly if exposed to measles? We have never made any form of vaccine mandatory in this country and having a vaccine passport is very close to that and people need To think of the consequences. What if Billy can't have a vaccine, should he be denied an education. Or Billies mum is anti-vaccine which is not billies fault should Billie also be denied an education? This is a real concern, We have to carful what we accept to solve one problem. Susie is someone who can't have a vaccine or who a vaccine doesn't protect. Unfortunately this becomes a zero sum game. Those without protection from vaccines through no fault of their own/ fault of their guardians (medically unable to take a vaccine, cancer, other immunosuppression) are put at incredible risk by those who don't want to/ whose parents don't vaccinate them. I would rather Billy have alternative arrangements than Susie die. And yeah, it comes down to that. I wish it didn't, but it does. Getting behind the wheel of a car could kill someone so should nobody drive? Nope. We have safety measures and rules around driving, knowledge of conditions etc. We live the lives we lead relying on herd immunity from diseases like measles. (We have the road rules we do in part based on the kinds of cars we have and what we know about the humans that drive them). We choose. Do we prioritise vaccine choice or the health and safety of the vulnerable, particularly children? Why do we prioritise Billy's education over Susie's life? " We shouldn’t I believe unvaccinated children should be home educated. There have been outbreaks of measles in schools due to unvaccinated children | |||
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"Proof of vaccination has been required for many years by countries, for things like yellow fever. The difference now is in the name, passport, so it sounds more ominous. Plus countries and airlines are wanting to see evidence before travelling is permitted. You are so right . This is not a new thing. But moaning about it is.. Freeeeeedom! " Lol | |||
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"Proof of vaccination has been required for many years by countries, for things like yellow fever. The difference now is in the name, passport, so it sounds more ominous. Plus countries and airlines are wanting to see evidence before travelling is permitted. You are so right . This is not a new thing. But moaning about it is.. Freeeeeedom! " We will hopefully have our freedom back very soon. It may be different but as humans we need to adjust and adapt. | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door?" ID cards you say? C ertificate O f V accination I D | |||
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"Proof of vaccination has been required for many years by countries, for things like yellow fever. The difference now is in the name, passport, so it sounds more ominous. Plus countries and airlines are wanting to see evidence before travelling is permitted. You are so right . This is not a new thing. But moaning about it is.. Freeeeeedom! We will hopefully have our freedom back very soon. It may be different but as humans we need to adjust and adapt. " To me freedom is incomplete without the freedom from vaccine preventable disease we previously enjoyed. | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door? If just wanted for international travel, people will already be carrying an ID card, in the form of their passport. And i don't have a problem with that, but what if a restaurant won't let you in unless You can prove you have had the covid vaccination. Then are children not gonna be allowed into school if they haven't had certain vaccines so my point is where does it end. " In France all children when applying to attend school or nursery have to show proof of vaccination for various diseases before they are allowed to attend. Seems fair to me. | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door? If just wanted for international travel, people will already be carrying an ID card, in the form of their passport. And i don't have a problem with that, but what if a restaurant won't let you in unless You can prove you have had the covid vaccination. Then are children not gonna be allowed into school if they haven't had certain vaccines so my point is where does it end. In France all children when applying to attend school or nursery have to show proof of vaccination for various diseases before they are allowed to attend. Seems fair to me." In Australia, "no jab no play", because we have to make our import policies cutesy and rhyming. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door? If just wanted for international travel, people will already be carrying an ID card, in the form of their passport. And i don't have a problem with that, but what if a restaurant won't let you in unless You can prove you have had the covid vaccination. Then are children not gonna be allowed into school if they haven't had certain vaccines so my point is where does it end. In France all children when applying to attend school or nursery have to show proof of vaccination for various diseases before they are allowed to attend. Seems fair to me." Me too - private nurseries in the UK do this but schools can’t unfortunately | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door? If just wanted for international travel, people will already be carrying an ID card, in the form of their passport. And i don't have a problem with that, but what if a restaurant won't let you in unless You can prove you have had the covid vaccination. Then are children not gonna be allowed into school if they haven't had certain vaccines so my point is where does it end. Which child do you choose. Billy, whose mum thinks vaccines cause autism, or Susie, who is recovering from cancer and would surely die needlessly if exposed to measles? We have never made any form of vaccine mandatory in this country and having a vaccine passport is very close to that and people need To think of the consequences. What if Billy can't have a vaccine, should he be denied an education. Or Billies mum is anti-vaccine which is not billies fault should Billie also be denied an education? This is a real concern, We have to carful what we accept to solve one problem. Susie is someone who can't have a vaccine or who a vaccine doesn't protect. Unfortunately this becomes a zero sum game. Those without protection from vaccines through no fault of their own/ fault of their guardians (medically unable to take a vaccine, cancer, other immunosuppression) are put at incredible risk by those who don't want to/ whose parents don't vaccinate them. I would rather Billy have alternative arrangements than Susie die. And yeah, it comes down to that. I wish it didn't, but it does. Getting behind the wheel of a car could kill someone so should nobody drive? Nope. We have safety measures and rules around driving, knowledge of conditions etc. We live the lives we lead relying on herd immunity from diseases like measles. (We have the road rules we do in part based on the kinds of cars we have and what we know about the humans that drive them). We choose. Do we prioritise vaccine choice or the health and safety of the vulnerable, particularly children? Why do we prioritise Billy's education over Susie's life? We shouldn’t I believe unvaccinated children should be home educated. There have been outbreaks of measles in schools due to unvaccinated children " So children who cannot have a vaccine and there are many who due to allergies or other medical conditions are told they cannot have it should not be allowed in education in a school setting and should be made to be different because this is what we are advocating if we allow this. Then where does it lead that child can't have a job because the workplace says they have to have a vaccine seriously this needs consideration and serious consideration because people are looking at this from one angle. | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door? If just wanted for international travel, people will already be carrying an ID card, in the form of their passport. And i don't have a problem with that, but what if a restaurant won't let you in unless You can prove you have had the covid vaccination. Then are children not gonna be allowed into school if they haven't had certain vaccines so my point is where does it end. In France all children when applying to attend school or nursery have to show proof of vaccination for various diseases before they are allowed to attend. Seems fair to me. Me too - private nurseries in the UK do this but schools can’t unfortunately " Some do this, not the majority. | |||
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" So children who cannot have a vaccine and there are many who due to allergies or other medical conditions are told they cannot have it should not be allowed in education in a school setting and should be made to be different because this is what we are advocating if we allow this. Then where does it lead that child can't have a job because the workplace says they have to have a vaccine seriously this needs consideration and serious consideration because people are looking at this from one angle." No. The precedent in other similar countries (Australia, USA) is unvaccinated or approved exemption. So those who can't be vaccinated come to school because they/ their family have no choice. They're protected by their classmates having their jabs. Those who won't or whose parents won't - we protect and prioritise those who are unprotected *through no fault of their own*. | |||
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"best thing is people actually believe that the vaccine, makes them bullet proof....." I don’t think people generally do ... reducing rhe risk and the spread until eventual herd immunity is achieved and death rates are well down. That’s the aim | |||
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" So children who cannot have a vaccine and there are many who due to allergies or other medical conditions are told they cannot have it should not be allowed in education in a school setting and should be made to be different because this is what we are advocating if we allow this. Then where does it lead that child can't have a job because the workplace says they have to have a vaccine seriously this needs consideration and serious consideration because people are looking at this from one angle. No. The precedent in other similar countries (Australia, USA) is unvaccinated or approved exemption. So those who can't be vaccinated come to school because they/ their family have no choice. They're protected by their classmates having their jabs. Those who won't or whose parents won't - we protect and prioritise those who are unprotected *through no fault of their own*." A childs parent refusing to give the child a vaccine is also through no fault of the child and like you said they are protected through herd immunity. It will effectively create a 2 tier society. Like I said no problem if it is for travel only however there are implications that can not just be dismissed. | |||
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" So children who cannot have a vaccine and there are many who due to allergies or other medical conditions are told they cannot have it should not be allowed in education in a school setting and should be made to be different because this is what we are advocating if we allow this. Then where does it lead that child can't have a job because the workplace says they have to have a vaccine seriously this needs consideration and serious consideration because people are looking at this from one angle. No. The precedent in other similar countries (Australia, USA) is unvaccinated or approved exemption. So those who can't be vaccinated come to school because they/ their family have no choice. They're protected by their classmates having their jabs. Those who won't or whose parents won't - we protect and prioritise those who are unprotected *through no fault of their own*. A childs parent refusing to give the child a vaccine is also through no fault of the child and like you said they are protected through herd immunity. It will effectively create a 2 tier society. Like I said no problem if it is for travel only however there are implications that can not just be dismissed." Unfortunately if vaccine refusal is high enough, herd immunity is compromised. I'm all for protections to ensure that children receive an education and adults are employable. That does not mean equal provision when personal choice might threaten other people. It means equitable provision. No, it's not Billy's fault, but unfortunately Billy remains a threat to Susie. Why should we prioritise Billy, where this is a choice (even if by his parents), over Susie's health and misfortune? That's what it comes down to. | |||
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" So children who cannot have a vaccine and there are many who due to allergies or other medical conditions are told they cannot have it should not be allowed in education in a school setting and should be made to be different because this is what we are advocating if we allow this. Then where does it lead that child can't have a job because the workplace says they have to have a vaccine seriously this needs consideration and serious consideration because people are looking at this from one angle. No. The precedent in other similar countries (Australia, USA) is unvaccinated or approved exemption. So those who can't be vaccinated come to school because they/ their family have no choice. They're protected by their classmates having their jabs. Those who won't or whose parents won't - we protect and prioritise those who are unprotected *through no fault of their own*. A childs parent refusing to give the child a vaccine is also through no fault of the child and like you said they are protected through herd immunity. It will effectively create a 2 tier society. Like I said no problem if it is for travel only however there are implications that can not just be dismissed. Unfortunately if vaccine refusal is high enough, herd immunity is compromised. I'm all for protections to ensure that children receive an education and adults are employable. That does not mean equal provision when personal choice might threaten other people. It means equitable provision. No, it's not Billy's fault, but unfortunately Billy remains a threat to Susie. Why should we prioritise Billy, where this is a choice (even if by his parents), over Susie's health and misfortune? That's what it comes down to." This .... | |||
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" So children who cannot have a vaccine and there are many who due to allergies or other medical conditions are told they cannot have it should not be allowed in education in a school setting and should be made to be different because this is what we are advocating if we allow this. Then where does it lead that child can't have a job because the workplace says they have to have a vaccine seriously this needs consideration and serious consideration because people are looking at this from one angle. No. The precedent in other similar countries (Australia, USA) is unvaccinated or approved exemption. So those who can't be vaccinated come to school because they/ their family have no choice. They're protected by their classmates having their jabs. Those who won't or whose parents won't - we protect and prioritise those who are unprotected *through no fault of their own*. A childs parent refusing to give the child a vaccine is also through no fault of the child and like you said they are protected through herd immunity. It will effectively create a 2 tier society. Like I said no problem if it is for travel only however there are implications that can not just be dismissed. Unfortunately if vaccine refusal is high enough, herd immunity is compromised. I'm all for protections to ensure that children receive an education and adults are employable. That does not mean equal provision when personal choice might threaten other people. It means equitable provision. No, it's not Billy's fault, but unfortunately Billy remains a threat to Susie. Why should we prioritise Billy, where this is a choice (even if by his parents), over Susie's health and misfortune? That's what it comes down to." All of our individual choices have a potential to harm others so like I said where does this end. | |||
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" So children who cannot have a vaccine and there are many who due to allergies or other medical conditions are told they cannot have it should not be allowed in education in a school setting and should be made to be different because this is what we are advocating if we allow this. Then where does it lead that child can't have a job because the workplace says they have to have a vaccine seriously this needs consideration and serious consideration because people are looking at this from one angle. No. The precedent in other similar countries (Australia, USA) is unvaccinated or approved exemption. So those who can't be vaccinated come to school because they/ their family have no choice. They're protected by their classmates having their jabs. Those who won't or whose parents won't - we protect and prioritise those who are unprotected *through no fault of their own*. A childs parent refusing to give the child a vaccine is also through no fault of the child and like you said they are protected through herd immunity. It will effectively create a 2 tier society. Like I said no problem if it is for travel only however there are implications that can not just be dismissed. Unfortunately if vaccine refusal is high enough, herd immunity is compromised. I'm all for protections to ensure that children receive an education and adults are employable. That does not mean equal provision when personal choice might threaten other people. It means equitable provision. No, it's not Billy's fault, but unfortunately Billy remains a threat to Susie. Why should we prioritise Billy, where this is a choice (even if by his parents), over Susie's health and misfortune? That's what it comes down to. All of our individual choices have a potential to harm others so like I said where does this end. " Don't know. I don't think "potential slippery slope into tyranny or something" is a good response. It could well stop there for education. I was required to provide my vaccination records to go to school, although before it was nicknamed no jab no play. | |||
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"I don’t think I’ve ever been sat on the fence more about this! Private businesses can demand a vaccine for entry... obviously given exemption clauses. That could affect literally every restaurant, holiday, club.... As much as I’m for the vaccine, I’m also pro choice and this basically eliminates choice because people couldn’t live a “normal” life. There are loads of jobs currently where people have to prove certain vaccinations so I don’t think it’s beyond impossible for them to implement! "I think allowing the vulnerable to live their lives normally again is and should be a higher priority than "those who make a decision". Choices come with consequences. | |||
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"I don’t think I’ve ever been sat on the fence more about this! Private businesses can demand a vaccine for entry... obviously given exemption clauses. That could affect literally every restaurant, holiday, club.... As much as I’m for the vaccine, I’m also pro choice and this basically eliminates choice because people couldn’t live a “normal” life. There are loads of jobs currently where people have to prove certain vaccinations so I don’t think it’s beyond impossible for them to implement!
I think allowing the vulnerable to live their lives normally again is and should be a higher priority than "those who make a decision".
Choices come with consequences."But we shouldn't pit one set against another we never have done. Yes I'm all for the temporary measures that have been put in place to protect lives and the vaunable but when that risk has been mitigated by the majority of the population being vaccinated Life should carry on without people being forced to have medical procedures just to live their life. If we cannot get to a level of 67% of vaccination take up which will be required for herd immunity then yes we should look at it again but it's not looking like we are not going to reach that figure. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I don’t think I’ve ever been sat on the fence more about this! Private businesses can demand a vaccine for entry... obviously given exemption clauses. That could affect literally every restaurant, holiday, club.... As much as I’m for the vaccine, I’m also pro choice and this basically eliminates choice because people couldn’t live a “normal” life. There are loads of jobs currently where people have to prove certain vaccinations so I don’t think it’s beyond impossible for them to implement!
I think allowing the vulnerable to live their lives normally again is and should be a higher priority than "those who make a decision".
Choices come with consequences."Unfortunately everyone has human rights. The vulnerable choices aren’t more important than “healthy” people’s choice. Wether it’s right or wrong. Until we’re in a position to guarantee every vaccine stops the spread then it doesn’t make it safer for vulnerable anyway. | |||
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"I don’t think I’ve ever been sat on the fence more about this! Private businesses can demand a vaccine for entry... obviously given exemption clauses. That could affect literally every restaurant, holiday, club.... As much as I’m for the vaccine, I’m also pro choice and this basically eliminates choice because people couldn’t live a “normal” life. There are loads of jobs currently where people have to prove certain vaccinations so I don’t think it’s beyond impossible for them to implement!
I think allowing the vulnerable to live their lives normally again is and should be a higher priority than "those who make a decision".
Choices come with consequences.
But we shouldn't pit one set against another we never have done.
Yes I'm all for the temporary measures that have been put in place to protect lives and the vaunable but when that risk has been mitigated by the majority of the population being vaccinated Life should carry on without people being forced to have medical procedures just to live their life.
If we cannot get to a level of 67% of vaccination take up which will be required for herd immunity then yes we should look at it again but it's not looking like we are not going to reach that figure."Fingers crossed we sail passed it easily
I’ve not heard of many people declining who I know... just through Facebook and things so fingers crossed x | |||
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" So children who cannot have a vaccine and there are many who due to allergies or other medical conditions are told they cannot have it should not be allowed in education in a school setting and should be made to be different because this is what we are advocating if we allow this. Then where does it lead that child can't have a job because the workplace says they have to have a vaccine seriously this needs consideration and serious consideration because people are looking at this from one angle. No. The precedent in other similar countries (Australia, USA) is unvaccinated or approved exemption. So those who can't be vaccinated come to school because they/ their family have no choice. They're protected by their classmates having their jabs. Those who won't or whose parents won't - we protect and prioritise those who are unprotected *through no fault of their own*." So maybe we would end up having children who were genuine cases ( can't take the vaccination due to medical reasons/reactions) needing to attend a school where all the kids are the in the same boat. Probably until a newer form of the vaccine is available that they will be able to take and then be able to join the other schools etc As much as people won't like it .. the truth is we are going to have to do some sort of segregating long short term quarantine and restrict/ control entry for everyone into education, public spaces, bars, clubs and sporting venues.. in fact everywhere apart from open fields I suppose .
I suppose the truth is as much as everyone thinks about their ' rights' etc the fact is eventually that right to refuse the vaccine will become some kind of punishable thing in one way or another.
I genuinely can't see any other option? people's morals and refusal to get vaccinated or have their children vaccinated simply can't feature at this stage in what's happening to us all as terrible and worrying as that is .. otherwise, we run the risk of it all starting again.
My guess is we will all have to carry ID cards/ biometric things as they have on the continent for a long time .. I am guessing that they will hold things like blood groups, allergies and records of all vaccinations .. and they absolutely will be needed to gains some sort of entry into ' normal' life
It's very frightening of course because of all the data and privacy issues .. can't see anything different though I'm afraid for us all within the next 18 months or so :/
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"I don’t think I’ve ever been sat on the fence more about this! Private businesses can demand a vaccine for entry... obviously given exemption clauses. That could affect literally every restaurant, holiday, club.... As much as I’m for the vaccine, I’m also pro choice and this basically eliminates choice because people couldn’t live a “normal” life. There are loads of jobs currently where people have to prove certain vaccinations so I don’t think it’s beyond impossible for them to implement!
I think allowing the vulnerable to live their lives normally again is and should be a higher priority than "those who make a decision".
Choices come with consequences.
Unfortunately everyone has human rights. The vulnerable choices aren’t more important than “healthy” people’s choice. Wether it’s right or wrong.
Until we’re in a position to guarantee every vaccine stops the spread then it doesn’t make it safer for vulnerable anyway. "The slow of spread through vaccination is being studied and shown. With enough vaccination that will be enough. Human rights - like the human rights that prioritise the right to life over all other rights? They're not "I get to do what I want", it has been thought through. You have a right to life. You have a (per ECHR jurisprudence) non absolute right to refuse medical treatment including vaccination (the UK goes further and allows greater freedom in most cases). The second right does not mean "I can refuse medical treatment and suffer no effects from it". It means you can refuse the treatment. | |||
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" So children who cannot have a vaccine and there are many who due to allergies or other medical conditions are told they cannot have it should not be allowed in education in a school setting and should be made to be different because this is what we are advocating if we allow this. Then where does it lead that child can't have a job because the workplace says they have to have a vaccine seriously this needs consideration and serious consideration because people are looking at this from one angle. No. The precedent in other similar countries (Australia, USA) is unvaccinated or approved exemption. So those who can't be vaccinated come to school because they/ their family have no choice. They're protected by their classmates having their jabs. Those who won't or whose parents won't - we protect and prioritise those who are unprotected *through no fault of their own*. So maybe we would end up having children who were genuine cases ( can't take the vaccination due to medical reasons/reactions) needing to attend a school where all the kids are the in the same boat. Probably until a newer form of the vaccine is available that they will be able to take and then be able to join the other schools etc As much as people won't like it .. the truth is we are going to have to do some sort of segregating long short term quarantine and restrict/ control entry for everyone into education, public spaces, bars, clubs and sporting venues.. in fact everywhere apart from open fields I suppose .
I suppose the truth is as much as everyone thinks about their ' rights' etc the fact is eventually that right to refuse the vaccine will become some kind of punishable thing in one way or another.
I genuinely can't see any other option? people's morals and refusal to get vaccinated or have their children vaccinated simply can't feature at this stage in what's happening to us all as terrible and worrying as that is .. otherwise, we run the risk of it all starting again.
My guess is we will all have to carry ID cards/ biometric things as they have on the continent for a long time .. I am guessing that they will hold things like blood groups, allergies and records of all vaccinations .. and they absolutely will be needed to gains some sort of entry into ' normal' life
It's very frightening of course because of all the data and privacy issues .. can't see anything different though I'm afraid for us all within the next 18 months or so :/
"It’s a scary thought isn’t it! And children being segregated happens all the time, I was a carrier for chicken pocks and it meant a little girl in my primary school had to move classes as she was ongoing cancer treatment. Strange to think where we could be in a years time!! | |||
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"I don’t think I’ve ever been sat on the fence more about this! Private businesses can demand a vaccine for entry... obviously given exemption clauses. That could affect literally every restaurant, holiday, club.... As much as I’m for the vaccine, I’m also pro choice and this basically eliminates choice because people couldn’t live a “normal” life. There are loads of jobs currently where people have to prove certain vaccinations so I don’t think it’s beyond impossible for them to implement!
I think allowing the vulnerable to live their lives normally again is and should be a higher priority than "those who make a decision".
Choices come with consequences.
But we shouldn't pit one set against another we never have done.
Yes I'm all for the temporary measures that have been put in place to protect lives and the vaunable but when that risk has been mitigated by the majority of the population being vaccinated Life should carry on without people being forced to have medical procedures just to live their life.
If we cannot get to a level of 67% of vaccination take up which will be required for herd immunity then yes we should look at it again but it's not looking like we are not going to reach that figure."We shall see what happens. I believe in protecting core rights (healthcare, education, employability, etc). But ultimately if businesses come down to it, "I can't go to x gym, pub, restaurant" is not high on my list of important human rights. | |||
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"I don’t think I’ve ever been sat on the fence more about this! Private businesses can demand a vaccine for entry... obviously given exemption clauses. That could affect literally every restaurant, holiday, club.... As much as I’m for the vaccine, I’m also pro choice and this basically eliminates choice because people couldn’t live a “normal” life. There are loads of jobs currently where people have to prove certain vaccinations so I don’t think it’s beyond impossible for them to implement!
I think allowing the vulnerable to live their lives normally again is and should be a higher priority than "those who make a decision".
Choices come with consequences.
Unfortunately everyone has human rights. The vulnerable choices aren’t more important than “healthy” people’s choice. Wether it’s right or wrong.
Until we’re in a position to guarantee every vaccine stops the spread then it doesn’t make it safer for vulnerable anyway.
The slow of spread through vaccination is being studied and shown. With enough vaccination that will be enough.
Human rights - like the human rights that prioritise the right to life over all other rights? They're not "I get to do what I want", it has been thought through.
You have a right to life. You have a (per ECHR jurisprudence) non absolute right to refuse medical treatment including vaccination (the UK goes further and allows greater freedom in most cases).
The second right does not mean "I can refuse medical treatment and suffer no effects from it". It means you can refuse the treatment."I’m legally trained everything I say comes from a legal and NHS background.... therefore great at arguing both sides no matter what I believe in
European court of human rights is going to be very busy with this | |||
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"Does anyone actually know who in the population is going to actually be vaccinated? Is it the entire population? I thought kids couldn't have it anyway? That's what some were saying on here only a few weeks back? The only way to ensure that both people's rights are protected and that the nation can get back on with a forward trajectory is to vaccinate every single person that wants it and can actually have it... Surely if that happens the numbers of people that don't have it, for whatever reason, will be minimal and there will be very minimal pressure on the NHS (which is the root point of all of these measures) and therefore no actual need for a passport or proof of any kind. Me personally, I'd take a vaccine to the eyeball if it got shit going again, fuck it, if its got something dodgy in it, it can join the long list of everything else that enters my body that could fuck me up... Surely " | |||
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"Does anyone actually know who in the population is going to actually be vaccinated? Is it the entire population? I thought kids couldn't have it anyway? That's what some were saying on here only a few weeks back? The only way to ensure that both people's rights are protected and that the nation can get back on with a forward trajectory is to vaccinate every single person that wants it and can actually have it... Surely if that happens the numbers of people that don't have it, for whatever reason, will be minimal and there will be very minimal pressure on the NHS (which is the root point of all of these measures) and therefore no actual need for a passport or proof of any kind. Me personally, I'd take a vaccine to the eyeball if it got shit going again, fuck it, if its got something dodgy in it, it can join the long list of everything else that enters my body that could fuck me up... Surely " Not at all adults are allowed certain entry and children aren’t .. atm there is one vaccine I believe that allows 16 and over the rest 18. I don’t doubt that next year a form of vaccine for children will be around and it will form part of their immunisation schedule. As it’s stands ‘all over 18 need x’ is a perfectly viable way of managing restrictions | |||
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" I’m legally trained everything I say comes from a legal and NHS background.... therefore great at arguing both sides no matter what I believe in
European court of human rights is going to be very busy with this "I have some legal training. My views are my own but informed by my recent reading (inspired by discussions here) around the law in this area. It is clear that the government at this time has no plans to mandate vaccines, and it would be outside a long held norm. That does not mean businesses cannot. The ECHR gives wide latitude as things stand to allow countries to mandate vaccination. Employment, it would seem unlikely to be possible except possibly in health and social care (even that, I suspect, would be difficult). Education, the government does not but it doesn't mean it cannot (and your example of chicken pox - that poor girl. I'm not blaming you either, btw) I think equitable educational opportunity should be protected, but not at the expense of the vulnerable. I think employment or employability should be protected. Access to healthcare ditto. Most other things... eh. You make your choices. | |||
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" So children who cannot have a vaccine and there are many who due to allergies or other medical conditions are told they cannot have it should not be allowed in education in a school setting and should be made to be different because this is what we are advocating if we allow this. Then where does it lead that child can't have a job because the workplace says they have to have a vaccine seriously this needs consideration and serious consideration because people are looking at this from one angle. No. The precedent in other similar countries (Australia, USA) is unvaccinated or approved exemption. So those who can't be vaccinated come to school because they/ their family have no choice. They're protected by their classmates having their jabs. Those who won't or whose parents won't - we protect and prioritise those who are unprotected *through no fault of their own*. So maybe we would end up having children who were genuine cases ( can't take the vaccination due to medical reasons/reactions) needing to attend a school where all the kids are the in the same boat. Probably until a newer form of the vaccine is available that they will be able to take and then be able to join the other schools etc As much as people won't like it .. the truth is we are going to have to do some sort of segregating long short term quarantine and restrict/ control entry for everyone into education, public spaces, bars, clubs and sporting venues.. in fact everywhere apart from open fields I suppose .
I suppose the truth is as much as everyone thinks about their ' rights' etc the fact is eventually that right to refuse the vaccine will become some kind of punishable thing in one way or another.
I genuinely can't see any other option? people's morals and refusal to get vaccinated or have their children vaccinated simply can't feature at this stage in what's happening to us all as terrible and worrying as that is .. otherwise, we run the risk of it all starting again.
My guess is we will all have to carry ID cards/ biometric things as they have on the continent for a long time .. I am guessing that they will hold things like blood groups, allergies and records of all vaccinations .. and they absolutely will be needed to gains some sort of entry into ' normal' life
It's very frightening of course because of all the data and privacy issues .. can't see anything different though I'm afraid for us all within the next 18 months or so :/
It’s a scary thought isn’t it!
And children being segregated happens all the time, I was a carrier for chicken pocks and it meant a little girl in my primary school had to move classes as she was ongoing cancer treatment.
Strange to think where we could be in a years time!! "And I see that child being moved Class as reasonable or you being moved but you being told that you can't go into school because of that 1 child is not reasonable. | |||
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"I don’t think I’ve ever been sat on the fence more about this! Private businesses can demand a vaccine for entry... obviously given exemption clauses. That could affect literally every restaurant, holiday, club.... As much as I’m for the vaccine, I’m also pro choice and this basically eliminates choice because people couldn’t live a “normal” life. There are loads of jobs currently where people have to prove certain vaccinations so I don’t think it’s beyond impossible for them to implement!
I think allowing the vulnerable to live their lives normally again is and should be a higher priority than "those who make a decision".
Choices come with consequences.
But we shouldn't pit one set against another we never have done.
Yes I'm all for the temporary measures that have been put in place to protect lives and the vaunable but when that risk has been mitigated by the majority of the population being vaccinated Life should carry on without people being forced to have medical procedures just to live their life.
If we cannot get to a level of 67% of vaccination take up which will be required for herd immunity then yes we should look at it again but it's not looking like we are not going to reach that figure.
Fingers crossed we sail passed it easily
I’ve not heard of many people declining who I know... just through Facebook and things so fingers crossed x"I only know one person who is currently adamant even though they are clinically vulnerable to covid will not have the vaccine. | |||
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"How could people who can't get vaccinated get a vaccine passport? It would make the whole thing pointless. This is how herd immunity works. There's a small subset of the population who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons. If enough people are vaccinated, spread is rapidly halted. If enough people are not vaccinated, spread continues. Herd immunity doesn't work. Oh? Herd immunity via vaccination is impossible? We're currently shut down over a disease with an R0 of 2-3. Measles has an R0 of 15-20. Why isn't it rampaging, please? "It isn't in the UK because the vast majority of People have their children vaccinated against it. We still do get some cases though It is still a problem in poorer countries, where the measles vaccine is unavailable due to cost. Also in some poorer/third world countries, vaccines are not taken up because of lack of education and suspicion of vaccines. | |||
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"How could people who can't get vaccinated get a vaccine passport? It would make the whole thing pointless. This is how herd immunity works. There's a small subset of the population who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons. If enough people are vaccinated, spread is rapidly halted. If enough people are not vaccinated, spread continues. Herd immunity doesn't work. Oh? Herd immunity via vaccination is impossible? We're currently shut down over a disease with an R0 of 2-3. Measles has an R0 of 15-20. Why isn't it rampaging, please?
It isn't in the UK because the vast majority of People have their children vaccinated against it. We still do get some cases though
It is still a problem in poorer countries, where the measles vaccine is unavailable due to cost. Also in some poorer/third world countries, vaccines are not taken up because of lack of education and suspicion of vaccines."Agreed. That's herd immunity. | |||
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" So children who cannot have a vaccine and there are many who due to allergies or other medical conditions are told they cannot have it should not be allowed in education in a school setting and should be made to be different because this is what we are advocating if we allow this. Then where does it lead that child can't have a job because the workplace says they have to have a vaccine seriously this needs consideration and serious consideration because people are looking at this from one angle. No. The precedent in other similar countries (Australia, USA) is unvaccinated or approved exemption. So those who can't be vaccinated come to school because they/ their family have no choice. They're protected by their classmates having their jabs. Those who won't or whose parents won't - we protect and prioritise those who are unprotected *through no fault of their own*. So maybe we would end up having children who were genuine cases ( can't take the vaccination due to medical reasons/reactions) needing to attend a school where all the kids are the in the same boat. Probably until a newer form of the vaccine is available that they will be able to take and then be able to join the other schools etc As much as people won't like it .. the truth is we are going to have to do some sort of segregating long short term quarantine and restrict/ control entry for everyone into education, public spaces, bars, clubs and sporting venues.. in fact everywhere apart from open fields I suppose .
I suppose the truth is as much as everyone thinks about their ' rights' etc the fact is eventually that right to refuse the vaccine will become some kind of punishable thing in one way or another.
I genuinely can't see any other option? people's morals and refusal to get vaccinated or have their children vaccinated simply can't feature at this stage in what's happening to us all as terrible and worrying as that is .. otherwise, we run the risk of it all starting again.
My guess is we will all have to carry ID cards/ biometric things as they have on the continent for a long time .. I am guessing that they will hold things like blood groups, allergies and records of all vaccinations .. and they absolutely will be needed to gains some sort of entry into ' normal' life
It's very frightening of course because of all the data and privacy issues .. can't see anything different though I'm afraid for us all within the next 18 months or so :/
It’s a scary thought isn’t it!
And children being segregated happens all the time, I was a carrier for chicken pocks and it meant a little girl in my primary school had to move classes as she was ongoing cancer treatment.
Strange to think where we could be in a years time!!
And I see that child being moved Class as reasonable or you being moved but you being told that you can't go into school because of that 1 child is not reasonable.
"I would argue that it was reasonable. Particularly if suitable alternative provision was provided to cover any waiting times to find a suitable vaccine .. that's going to work across the country .. May need online schooling for a little bit longer or something? It is though entirely reasonable thing to do to keep potential risks segregated so everyone is better protected right? | |||
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" I would argue that it was reasonable. Particularly if suitable alternative provision was provided to cover any waiting times to find a suitable vaccine .. that's going to work across the country .. May need online schooling for a little bit longer or something? It is though entirely reasonable thing to do to keep potential risks segregated so everyone is better protected right?" I think segregating the vulnerable is reasonable where no adequate protection exists. Otherwise I think the imposition should be placed on those who have some choice in the matter. | |||
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"How could people who can't get vaccinated get a vaccine passport? It would make the whole thing pointless. This is how herd immunity works. There's a small subset of the population who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons. If enough people are vaccinated, spread is rapidly halted. If enough people are not vaccinated, spread continues. Herd immunity doesn't work. Oh? Herd immunity via vaccination is impossible? We're currently shut down over a disease with an R0 of 2-3. Measles has an R0 of 15-20. Why isn't it rampaging, please?
It isn't in the UK because the vast majority of People have their children vaccinated against it. We still do get some cases though
It is still a problem in poorer countries, where the measles vaccine is unavailable due to cost. Also in some poorer/third world countries, vaccines are not taken up because of lack of education and suspicion of vaccines.
Agreed. That's herd immunity."Can't be. I read some guy on the Internet say it didn't work. | |||
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"Absolutely disgusting move I have no intention of getting the vaccine so I take it that means no mor overseas holidays for me and my family excellent they are succeeding in making it a very small world. " I hope that access to venues such as restaurants, cinemas, leisure centres etc all need vaccination proof | |||
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"Absolutely disgusting move I have no intention of getting the vaccine so I take it that means no mor overseas holidays for me and my family excellent they are succeeding in making it a very small world. I hope that access to venues such as restaurants, cinemas, leisure centres etc all need vaccination proof "You missed out shops  | |||
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"Absolutely disgusting move I have no intention of getting the vaccine so I take it that means no mor overseas holidays for me and my family excellent they are succeeding in making it a very small world. I hope that access to venues such as restaurants, cinemas, leisure centres etc all need vaccination proof
You missed out shops "lol shops , pubs , anywhere we meet in public | |||
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"People are forging green number plates to save a few quid on car tax. I am sure the same exploiters will find a way to forge a Vaccine Passport. Quite possibly the same people that wear their face mask to get into the supermarket but conveniently let it slip while they shop. " people being able to make forgeries isn't a good argument against something or we would have scrapped all forms of ID including passport snd drivers licenses years ago, not to mention art, cash, designer handbags ... the list of items that cam be forged goes on forever | |||
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"I don't understand all this, as the vaccine is not designed to stop you getting covid, nor to stop you spreading it. It reduces the severity of the symptoms of you do get it, so reducing the likelihood of needing hospitalisation. This is from the Oxford vaccine website. It also says that it might help stop you catching covid but it's way too early to say, and this would be an added bonus if that happened. The vaccine is intended as an addition to all the other restrictions, not to replace them " The vaccines have been studied to reduce severity of infection. They're now looking back to see if it'll slow transmission. Guess what? It does for those where we have results
Hope this helps with your confusion. | |||
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"From other countries point of view, if they choose not to allow admission to unvaccinated people, why should it matter to them if that person wasn't vaccinated through choice or because they couldn't be due to medical reasons etc? An unvaccinated person surely poses an equal risk regardless of their reason for not being vaccinated? " It's absolutely true, but these kinds of policies tend to have this kind of exemption in them. | |||
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"From other countries point of view, if they choose not to allow admission to unvaccinated people, why should it matter to them if that person wasn't vaccinated through choice or because they couldn't be due to medical reasons etc? An unvaccinated person surely poses an equal risk regardless of their reason for not being vaccinated? It's absolutely true, but these kinds of policies tend to have this kind of exemption in them." Doesn't make much sense though. If it is to protect the people in their own country then surely the reason for being unvaccinated is irrelevant. If you won't or cannot be vaccinated, you are too much of a risk to yourself and others to be travelling internationally? | |||
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"From other countries point of view, if they choose not to allow admission to unvaccinated people, why should it matter to them if that person wasn't vaccinated through choice or because they couldn't be due to medical reasons etc? An unvaccinated person surely poses an equal risk regardless of their reason for not being vaccinated? It's absolutely true, but these kinds of policies tend to have this kind of exemption in them. Doesn't make much sense though. If it is to protect the people in their own country then surely the reason for being unvaccinated is irrelevant. If you won't or cannot be vaccinated, you are too much of a risk to yourself and others to be travelling internationally? " I don't know how it applies for travel. For schooling (in places where vaccination is required for school), the assumption is that you're protected by those around you. (So - extrapolating/ speculating - if person from country A wants to go to country B and both have herd immunity via vaccination, presumably that would be safe. Or an acceptable risk) | |||
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"From other countries point of view, if they choose not to allow admission to unvaccinated people, why should it matter to them if that person wasn't vaccinated through choice or because they couldn't be due to medical reasons etc? An unvaccinated person surely poses an equal risk regardless of their reason for not being vaccinated? It's absolutely true, but these kinds of policies tend to have this kind of exemption in them." And here lies the problem because we know what has happened with exemptions people get locked into the same category. The once and the comms will be lumped in to the same thing the same as the face covering exemption. If enough people take the vaccine and it is looking like they will then there is no need to exclude anybody from accessing everyday essentials such as education. My cave said for travel is a different issue am I understand countries not wanting people who haven't had the vaccine saying but it is a valid point if someone chooses not to have the vaccine or can't have the vaccine they are still a risk aren't they. | |||
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"From other countries point of view, if they choose not to allow admission to unvaccinated people, why should it matter to them if that person wasn't vaccinated through choice or because they couldn't be due to medical reasons etc? An unvaccinated person surely poses an equal risk regardless of their reason for not being vaccinated? It's absolutely true, but these kinds of policies tend to have this kind of exemption in them. Doesn't make much sense though. If it is to protect the people in their own country then surely the reason for being unvaccinated is irrelevant. If you won't or cannot be vaccinated, you are too much of a risk to yourself and others to be travelling internationally? I don't know how it applies for travel. For schooling (in places where vaccination is required for school), the assumption is that you're protected by those around you. (So - extrapolating/ speculating - if person from country A wants to go to country B and both have herd immunity via vaccination, presumably that would be safe. Or an acceptable risk)" I get it But that herd immunity would also protect those who opted out of vaccination through choice So why wouod there be a need to differentiate? That's the bit I don't get Unless it's down to punishing those who choose not to be vaccinated, as there doesn't seem to be much logic behind it, if it is safe enough for people who can't be vaccinated to travel, then it is no more unsafe for those who are unvaccinated through personal choice | |||
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"From other countries point of view, if they choose not to allow admission to unvaccinated people, why should it matter to them if that person wasn't vaccinated through choice or because they couldn't be due to medical reasons etc? An unvaccinated person surely poses an equal risk regardless of their reason for not being vaccinated? It's absolutely true, but these kinds of policies tend to have this kind of exemption in them. And here lies the problem because we know what has happened with exemptions people get locked into the same category. The once and the comms will be lumped in to the same thing the same as the face covering exemption. If enough people take the vaccine and it is looking like they will then there is no need to exclude anybody from accessing everyday essentials such as education. My cave said for travel is a different issue am I understand countries not wanting people who haven't had the vaccine saying but it is a valid point if someone chooses not to have the vaccine or can't have the vaccine they are still a risk aren't they." Exactly this | |||
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"From other countries point of view, if they choose not to allow admission to unvaccinated people, why should it matter to them if that person wasn't vaccinated through choice or because they couldn't be due to medical reasons etc? An unvaccinated person surely poses an equal risk regardless of their reason for not being vaccinated? It's absolutely true, but these kinds of policies tend to have this kind of exemption in them. And here lies the problem because we know what has happened with exemptions people get locked into the same category. The once and the comms will be lumped in to the same thing the same as the face covering exemption. If enough people take the vaccine and it is looking like they will then there is no need to exclude anybody from accessing everyday essentials such as education. My cave said for travel is a different issue am I understand countries not wanting people who haven't had the vaccine saying but it is a valid point if someone chooses not to have the vaccine or can't have the vaccine they are still a risk aren't they. Exactly this" That should have been won't and cant but I think you got that. | |||
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"From other countries point of view, if they choose not to allow admission to unvaccinated people, why should it matter to them if that person wasn't vaccinated through choice or because they couldn't be due to medical reasons etc? An unvaccinated person surely poses an equal risk regardless of their reason for not being vaccinated? It's absolutely true, but these kinds of policies tend to have this kind of exemption in them. And here lies the problem because we know what has happened with exemptions people get locked into the same category. The once and the comms will be lumped in to the same thing the same as the face covering exemption. If enough people take the vaccine and it is looking like they will then there is no need to exclude anybody from accessing everyday essentials such as education. My cave said for travel is a different issue am I understand countries not wanting people who haven't had the vaccine saying but it is a valid point if someone chooses not to have the vaccine or can't have the vaccine they are still a risk aren't they." Vaccination is not worn on your face, so the public don't see things to be targeted. You can just deny or approve entry according to documentation. | |||
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"From other countries point of view, if they choose not to allow admission to unvaccinated people, why should it matter to them if that person wasn't vaccinated through choice or because they couldn't be due to medical reasons etc? An unvaccinated person surely poses an equal risk regardless of their reason for not being vaccinated? It's absolutely true, but these kinds of policies tend to have this kind of exemption in them. And here lies the problem because we know what has happened with exemptions people get locked into the same category. The once and the comms will be lumped in to the same thing the same as the face covering exemption. If enough people take the vaccine and it is looking like they will then there is no need to exclude anybody from accessing everyday essentials such as education. My cave said for travel is a different issue am I understand countries not wanting people who haven't had the vaccine saying but it is a valid point if someone chooses not to have the vaccine or can't have the vaccine they are still a risk aren't they. Vaccination is not worn on your face, so the public don't see things to be targeted. You can just deny or approve entry according to documentation." That is true however what if a business or school decides the risk is not acceptable and decided not to allow someone to come to their school or work there because they can't have a vaccine. I really don't understand the problem because you have said the does are protected by herd community and so are the cants if the uptake is high enough and it is looking like it will be. And a lot of countries aren't gonna care whether you can't have the vaccine may not gonna let you in. Health insurance, life insurance and travel insurance will also be a premium. | |||
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"How could people who can't get vaccinated get a vaccine passport? It would make the whole thing pointless. This is how herd immunity works. There's a small subset of the population who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons. If enough people are vaccinated, spread is rapidly halted. If enough people are not vaccinated, spread continues." There has to be herd immunity at some point. This is how all virus like flu etc are handled. Around 65to 70% is, usually the target figure required. You have to have some natural immunity A vaccine is not the be all and end all | |||
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"How common is it not to be medically able to have the vaccine ?" People who have had severe reactions to medications or vaccines in the past for allergies are advised not to have the covid vaccine at the moment. | |||
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"From other countries point of view, if they choose not to allow admission to unvaccinated people, why should it matter to them if that person wasn't vaccinated through choice or because they couldn't be due to medical reasons etc? An unvaccinated person surely poses an equal risk regardless of their reason for not being vaccinated? It's absolutely true, but these kinds of policies tend to have this kind of exemption in them. And here lies the problem because we know what has happened with exemptions people get locked into the same category. The once and the comms will be lumped in to the same thing the same as the face covering exemption. If enough people take the vaccine and it is looking like they will then there is no need to exclude anybody from accessing everyday essentials such as education. My cave said for travel is a different issue am I understand countries not wanting people who haven't had the vaccine saying but it is a valid point if someone chooses not to have the vaccine or can't have the vaccine they are still a risk aren't they. Vaccination is not worn on your face, so the public don't see things to be targeted. You can just deny or approve entry according to documentation. That is true however what if a business or school decides the risk is not acceptable and decided not to allow someone to come to their school or work there because they can't have a vaccine. I really don't understand the problem because you have said the does are protected by herd community and so are the cants if the uptake is high enough and it is looking like it will be. And a lot of countries aren't gonna care whether you can't have the vaccine may not gonna let you in. Health insurance, life insurance and travel insurance will also be a premium. " When I moved to the UK I was strongly urged to check my MMR protection because of lack of herd immunity in Manchester. Enough people had decided they or their children would not protect themselves and each other that it was a present threat. (I got my levels tested and rejabbed because one was waning) Herd immunity isn't "whoever gets jabbed", it's a specific number of people (determined by the vaccine and the disease). I don't know how other countries will do it for travel. I speak to systems that exist. | |||
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"How common is it not to be medically able to have the vaccine ? People who have had severe reactions to medications or vaccines in the past for allergies are advised not to have the covid vaccine at the moment. " Yes I understand that. Also people having chemotherapy, pneumonia medication etc. I just wondered what percentage of the adult population that is. | |||
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"How could people who can't get vaccinated get a vaccine passport? It would make the whole thing pointless. This is how herd immunity works. There's a small subset of the population who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons. If enough people are vaccinated, spread is rapidly halted. If enough people are not vaccinated, spread continues.There has to be herd immunity at some point. This is how all virus like flu etc are handled. Around 65to 70% is, usually the target figure required. You have to have some natural immunity A vaccine is not the be all and end all " Reinfection has been documented and variants threaten natural immunity. Vaccination will end this. | |||
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"How common is it not to be medically able to have the vaccine ? People who have had severe reactions to medications or vaccines in the past for allergies are advised not to have the covid vaccine at the moment. Yes I understand that. Also people having chemotherapy, pneumonia medication etc. I just wondered what percentage of the adult population that is. " I don't know and I did try to look for data this afternoon but couldn't really find anything. | |||
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"How common is it not to be medically able to have the vaccine ? People who have had severe reactions to medications or vaccines in the past for allergies are advised not to have the covid vaccine at the moment. " This guidance recently changed again regarding history of allergic reactions My mother was called for the vaccine emlate December , but couldn't have it then due to having a severe historic reaction to aspirin. This has since changed a few weeks ago,now only if you have a history of allergic reaction to a specific ingredient of the vaccine should you not have it. She had it a fortnight ago | |||
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" I don't know and I did try to look for data this afternoon but couldn't really find anything. " Because this may be a barrier to immunity after the majority are vaccinated. I think the biggest challenge will be encouraging the antivaxxers | |||
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"From other countries point of view, if they choose not to allow admission to unvaccinated people, why should it matter to them if that person wasn't vaccinated through choice or because they couldn't be due to medical reasons etc? An unvaccinated person surely poses an equal risk regardless of their reason for not being vaccinated? It's absolutely true, but these kinds of policies tend to have this kind of exemption in them. Doesn't make much sense though. If it is to protect the people in their own country then surely the reason for being unvaccinated is irrelevant. If you won't or cannot be vaccinated, you are too much of a risk to yourself and others to be travelling internationally? I don't know how it applies for travel. For schooling (in places where vaccination is required for school), the assumption is that you're protected by those around you. (So - extrapolating/ speculating - if person from country A wants to go to country B and both have herd immunity via vaccination, presumably that would be safe. Or an acceptable risk) I get it But that herd immunity would also protect those who opted out of vaccination through choice So why wouod there be a need to differentiate? That's the bit I don't get Unless it's down to punishing those who choose not to be vaccinated, as there doesn't seem to be much logic behind it, if it is safe enough for people who can't be vaccinated to travel, then it is no more unsafe for those who are unvaccinated through personal choice " for herd immunity to exist the herd need to pull together in one direction (ie vaccination) if people elect to not be vaccinated then herd immunity is less effective for all (especially the people who medically cannot be) if enough people elect not to then we don’t actually achieve herd immunity i don’t think “if you don’t support the team you don’t get to play with the team” is unreasonable but rather than see it as punishment for not vaccinating i would see the freedoms as incentive to vaccinate (but obviously not penalising people who are medically unable to) | |||
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" for herd immunity to exist the herd need to pull together in one direction (ie vaccination) if people elect to not be vaccinated then herd immunity is less effective for all (especially the people who medically cannot be) if enough people elect not to then we don’t actually achieve herd immunity i don’t think “if you don’t support the team you don’t get to play with the team” is unreasonable but rather than see it as punishment for not vaccinating i would see the freedoms as incentive to vaccinate (but obviously not penalising people who are medically unable to) " This. So much this | |||
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" for herd immunity to exist the herd need to pull together in one direction (ie vaccination) if people elect to not be vaccinated then herd immunity is less effective for all (especially the people who medically cannot be) if enough people elect not to then we don’t actually achieve herd immunity i don’t think “if you don’t support the team you don’t get to play with the team” is unreasonable but rather than see it as punishment for not vaccinating i would see the freedoms as incentive to vaccinate (but obviously not penalising people who are medically unable to) This. So much this" people want all of the rights that come with being human with none of the moral responsibility that comes with being human | |||
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" for herd immunity to exist the herd need to pull together in one direction (ie vaccination) if people elect to not be vaccinated then herd immunity is less effective for all (especially the people who medically cannot be) if enough people elect not to then we don’t actually achieve herd immunity i don’t think “if you don’t support the team you don’t get to play with the team” is unreasonable but rather than see it as punishment for not vaccinating i would see the freedoms as incentive to vaccinate (but obviously not penalising people who are medically unable to) This. So much this people want all of the rights that come with being human with none of the moral responsibility that comes with being human " | |||
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"This whole shit show was sold from Day one as.... To save the NHS Nothing ever about passports to prove you've had an untested (in the scheme of normal for vaccines) vaccine to resume your life.. Enough now.. This is becoming even more of a, ohh yeah sure loxkdowm will end when this has happened, that has happened.. Ohh shit, kids back in school, look what's happened Back to square one.. Beyond believable anymore " The NHS is under unprecedented strain from acute infection. We don't know the long term effects of infection yet. New variants give us new challenges to save the NHS and each other. Vaccination is a personal choice. But choices are not free of consequences. | |||
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" I don't know and I did try to look for data this afternoon but couldn't really find anything. Because this may be a barrier to immunity after the majority are vaccinated. I think the biggest challenge will be encouraging the antivaxxers " I agree but the biggest thing that is going to back the anti-vax's argument up is that we are giving away rights and freedoms. There are people and certain groups for example who are very sceptical of vaccinations and I think an education approach needs to be taken not enforcement. | |||
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" I don't know and I did try to look for data this afternoon but couldn't really find anything. Because this may be a barrier to immunity after the majority are vaccinated. I think the biggest challenge will be encouraging the antivaxxers I agree but the biggest thing that is going to back the anti-vax's argument up is that we are giving away rights and freedoms. There are people and certain groups for example who are very sceptical of vaccinations and I think an education approach needs to be taken not enforcement." while i do agree that education on the vaccine is a positive step to take a vaccine passport is not enforcement ... people still have choice if they don’t like the consequences of the choice they make - tough luck ... then make a different decision being part of human society is give and take ... people already make choices to get a job, enter “the system” , not commit crime etc etc in order to participate in what they deem to be every day life ... other choices exist like living in a cabin and eating off the land , or be a criminal and end up in jail decisions that may not be to some peoples liking but that allow you to be part of society are not a new thing | |||
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"From other countries point of view, if they choose not to allow admission to unvaccinated people, why should it matter to them if that person wasn't vaccinated through choice or because they couldn't be due to medical reasons etc? An unvaccinated person surely poses an equal risk regardless of their reason for not being vaccinated? It's absolutely true, but these kinds of policies tend to have this kind of exemption in them. Doesn't make much sense though. If it is to protect the people in their own country then surely the reason for being unvaccinated is irrelevant. If you won't or cannot be vaccinated, you are too much of a risk to yourself and others to be travelling internationally? I don't know how it applies for travel. For schooling (in places where vaccination is required for school), the assumption is that you're protected by those around you. (So - extrapolating/ speculating - if person from country A wants to go to country B and both have herd immunity via vaccination, presumably that would be safe. Or an acceptable risk) I get it But that herd immunity would also protect those who opted out of vaccination through choice So why wouod there be a need to differentiate? That's the bit I don't get Unless it's down to punishing those who choose not to be vaccinated, as there doesn't seem to be much logic behind it, if it is safe enough for people who can't be vaccinated to travel, then it is no more unsafe for those who are unvaccinated through personal choice for herd immunity to exist the herd need to pull together in one direction (ie vaccination) if people elect to not be vaccinated then herd immunity is less effective for all (especially the people who medically cannot be) if enough people elect not to then we don’t actually achieve herd immunity i don’t think “if you don’t support the team you don’t get to play with the team” is unreasonable but rather than see it as punishment for not vaccinating i would see the freedoms as incentive to vaccinate (but obviously not penalising people who are medically unable to) " I get the thinking behind it But when it comes down to it, for a foreign country who is allowing tourists in, if there are 2 unvaccinated people wanting access, one unvaccinated through choice and one unvaccinated due to say, a severe allergy to an ingredient, from that country's perspective, neither pose more or less of a risk to the other. The risk they pose to themselves and others is the same. So where is the logic to denying one access over the other? | |||
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"From other countries point of view, if they choose not to allow admission to unvaccinated people, why should it matter to them if that person wasn't vaccinated through choice or because they couldn't be due to medical reasons etc? An unvaccinated person surely poses an equal risk regardless of their reason for not being vaccinated? It's absolutely true, but these kinds of policies tend to have this kind of exemption in them. Doesn't make much sense though. If it is to protect the people in their own country then surely the reason for being unvaccinated is irrelevant. If you won't or cannot be vaccinated, you are too much of a risk to yourself and others to be travelling internationally? I don't know how it applies for travel. For schooling (in places where vaccination is required for school), the assumption is that you're protected by those around you. (So - extrapolating/ speculating - if person from country A wants to go to country B and both have herd immunity via vaccination, presumably that would be safe. Or an acceptable risk) I get it But that herd immunity would also protect those who opted out of vaccination through choice So why wouod there be a need to differentiate? That's the bit I don't get Unless it's down to punishing those who choose not to be vaccinated, as there doesn't seem to be much logic behind it, if it is safe enough for people who can't be vaccinated to travel, then it is no more unsafe for those who are unvaccinated through personal choice for herd immunity to exist the herd need to pull together in one direction (ie vaccination) if people elect to not be vaccinated then herd immunity is less effective for all (especially the people who medically cannot be) if enough people elect not to then we don’t actually achieve herd immunity i don’t think “if you don’t support the team you don’t get to play with the team” is unreasonable but rather than see it as punishment for not vaccinating i would see the freedoms as incentive to vaccinate (but obviously not penalising people who are medically unable to) I get the thinking behind it But when it comes down to it, for a foreign country who is allowing tourists in, if there are 2 unvaccinated people wanting access, one unvaccinated through choice and one unvaccinated due to say, a severe allergy to an ingredient, from that country's perspective, neither pose more or less of a risk to the other. The risk they pose to themselves and others is the same. So where is the logic to denying one access over the other? " It's a compassionate exemption. Logic doesn't come into it. | |||
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"From other countries point of view, if they choose not to allow admission to unvaccinated people, why should it matter to them if that person wasn't vaccinated through choice or because they couldn't be due to medical reasons etc? An unvaccinated person surely poses an equal risk regardless of their reason for not being vaccinated? It's absolutely true, but these kinds of policies tend to have this kind of exemption in them. Doesn't make much sense though. If it is to protect the people in their own country then surely the reason for being unvaccinated is irrelevant. If you won't or cannot be vaccinated, you are too much of a risk to yourself and others to be travelling internationally? I don't know how it applies for travel. For schooling (in places where vaccination is required for school), the assumption is that you're protected by those around you. (So - extrapolating/ speculating - if person from country A wants to go to country B and both have herd immunity via vaccination, presumably that would be safe. Or an acceptable risk) I get it But that herd immunity would also protect those who opted out of vaccination through choice So why wouod there be a need to differentiate? That's the bit I don't get Unless it's down to punishing those who choose not to be vaccinated, as there doesn't seem to be much logic behind it, if it is safe enough for people who can't be vaccinated to travel, then it is no more unsafe for those who are unvaccinated through personal choice for herd immunity to exist the herd need to pull together in one direction (ie vaccination) if people elect to not be vaccinated then herd immunity is less effective for all (especially the people who medically cannot be) if enough people elect not to then we don’t actually achieve herd immunity i don’t think “if you don’t support the team you don’t get to play with the team” is unreasonable but rather than see it as punishment for not vaccinating i would see the freedoms as incentive to vaccinate (but obviously not penalising people who are medically unable to) I get the thinking behind it But when it comes down to it, for a foreign country who is allowing tourists in, if there are 2 unvaccinated people wanting access, one unvaccinated through choice and one unvaccinated due to say, a severe allergy to an ingredient, from that country's perspective, neither pose more or less of a risk to the other. The risk they pose to themselves and others is the same. So where is the logic to denying one access over the other? It's a compassionate exemption. Logic doesn't come into it. " If other countries are seriously wanting to protect themselves then surely it makes sense to think logically rather than compassionately? | |||
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"From other countries point of view, if they choose not to allow admission to unvaccinated people, why should it matter to them if that person wasn't vaccinated through choice or because they couldn't be due to medical reasons etc? An unvaccinated person surely poses an equal risk regardless of their reason for not being vaccinated? It's absolutely true, but these kinds of policies tend to have this kind of exemption in them. Doesn't make much sense though. If it is to protect the people in their own country then surely the reason for being unvaccinated is irrelevant. If you won't or cannot be vaccinated, you are too much of a risk to yourself and others to be travelling internationally? I don't know how it applies for travel. For schooling (in places where vaccination is required for school), the assumption is that you're protected by those around you. (So - extrapolating/ speculating - if person from country A wants to go to country B and both have herd immunity via vaccination, presumably that would be safe. Or an acceptable risk) I get it But that herd immunity would also protect those who opted out of vaccination through choice So why wouod there be a need to differentiate? That's the bit I don't get Unless it's down to punishing those who choose not to be vaccinated, as there doesn't seem to be much logic behind it, if it is safe enough for people who can't be vaccinated to travel, then it is no more unsafe for those who are unvaccinated through personal choice for herd immunity to exist the herd need to pull together in one direction (ie vaccination) if people elect to not be vaccinated then herd immunity is less effective for all (especially the people who medically cannot be) if enough people elect not to then we don’t actually achieve herd immunity i don’t think “if you don’t support the team you don’t get to play with the team” is unreasonable but rather than see it as punishment for not vaccinating i would see the freedoms as incentive to vaccinate (but obviously not penalising people who are medically unable to) I get the thinking behind it But when it comes down to it, for a foreign country who is allowing tourists in, if there are 2 unvaccinated people wanting access, one unvaccinated through choice and one unvaccinated due to say, a severe allergy to an ingredient, from that country's perspective, neither pose more or less of a risk to the other. The risk they pose to themselves and others is the same. So where is the logic to denying one access over the other? " in terms of safety there is no logic , in terms of it being the right thing to do to not penalise people for things medically beyond their control i see plenty logic and by applying this rule the numbers of unvaccinated being admitted should be small enough to not compromise the balance of herd immunity | |||
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"From other countries point of view, if they choose not to allow admission to unvaccinated people, why should it matter to them if that person wasn't vaccinated through choice or because they couldn't be due to medical reasons etc? An unvaccinated person surely poses an equal risk regardless of their reason for not being vaccinated? It's absolutely true, but these kinds of policies tend to have this kind of exemption in them. Doesn't make much sense though. If it is to protect the people in their own country then surely the reason for being unvaccinated is irrelevant. If you won't or cannot be vaccinated, you are too much of a risk to yourself and others to be travelling internationally? I don't know how it applies for travel. For schooling (in places where vaccination is required for school), the assumption is that you're protected by those around you. (So - extrapolating/ speculating - if person from country A wants to go to country B and both have herd immunity via vaccination, presumably that would be safe. Or an acceptable risk) I get it But that herd immunity would also protect those who opted out of vaccination through choice So why wouod there be a need to differentiate? That's the bit I don't get Unless it's down to punishing those who choose not to be vaccinated, as there doesn't seem to be much logic behind it, if it is safe enough for people who can't be vaccinated to travel, then it is no more unsafe for those who are unvaccinated through personal choice for herd immunity to exist the herd need to pull together in one direction (ie vaccination) if people elect to not be vaccinated then herd immunity is less effective for all (especially the people who medically cannot be) if enough people elect not to then we don’t actually achieve herd immunity i don’t think “if you don’t support the team you don’t get to play with the team” is unreasonable but rather than see it as punishment for not vaccinating i would see the freedoms as incentive to vaccinate (but obviously not penalising people who are medically unable to) I get the thinking behind it But when it comes down to it, for a foreign country who is allowing tourists in, if there are 2 unvaccinated people wanting access, one unvaccinated through choice and one unvaccinated due to say, a severe allergy to an ingredient, from that country's perspective, neither pose more or less of a risk to the other. The risk they pose to themselves and others is the same. So where is the logic to denying one access over the other? It's a compassionate exemption. Logic doesn't come into it. If other countries are seriously wanting to protect themselves then surely it makes sense to think logically rather than compassionately? " Perhaps. But as stated, allowing only a medical exemption will likely maintain herd immunity. All decisions are a balance of competing interests. | |||
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"From other countries point of view, if they choose not to allow admission to unvaccinated people, why should it matter to them if that person wasn't vaccinated through choice or because they couldn't be due to medical reasons etc? An unvaccinated person surely poses an equal risk regardless of their reason for not being vaccinated? It's absolutely true, but these kinds of policies tend to have this kind of exemption in them. Doesn't make much sense though. If it is to protect the people in their own country then surely the reason for being unvaccinated is irrelevant. If you won't or cannot be vaccinated, you are too much of a risk to yourself and others to be travelling internationally? I don't know how it applies for travel. For schooling (in places where vaccination is required for school), the assumption is that you're protected by those around you. (So - extrapolating/ speculating - if person from country A wants to go to country B and both have herd immunity via vaccination, presumably that would be safe. Or an acceptable risk) I get it But that herd immunity would also protect those who opted out of vaccination through choice So why wouod there be a need to differentiate? That's the bit I don't get Unless it's down to punishing those who choose not to be vaccinated, as there doesn't seem to be much logic behind it, if it is safe enough for people who can't be vaccinated to travel, then it is no more unsafe for those who are unvaccinated through personal choice for herd immunity to exist the herd need to pull together in one direction (ie vaccination) if people elect to not be vaccinated then herd immunity is less effective for all (especially the people who medically cannot be) if enough people elect not to then we don’t actually achieve herd immunity i don’t think “if you don’t support the team you don’t get to play with the team” is unreasonable but rather than see it as punishment for not vaccinating i would see the freedoms as incentive to vaccinate (but obviously not penalising people who are medically unable to) I get the thinking behind it But when it comes down to it, for a foreign country who is allowing tourists in, if there are 2 unvaccinated people wanting access, one unvaccinated through choice and one unvaccinated due to say, a severe allergy to an ingredient, from that country's perspective, neither pose more or less of a risk to the other. The risk they pose to themselves and others is the same. So where is the logic to denying one access over the other? It's a compassionate exemption. Logic doesn't come into it. If other countries are seriously wanting to protect themselves then surely it makes sense to think logically rather than compassionately? " the numbers should be small enough that they don’t compromise the build up immunity of the country ... however it wouldn’t be unreasonable for them to refuse both until they think they have reached levels they deem to be acceptable | |||
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"From other countries point of view, if they choose not to allow admission to unvaccinated people, why should it matter to them if that person wasn't vaccinated through choice or because they couldn't be due to medical reasons etc? An unvaccinated person surely poses an equal risk regardless of their reason for not being vaccinated? It's absolutely true, but these kinds of policies tend to have this kind of exemption in them. Doesn't make much sense though. If it is to protect the people in their own country then surely the reason for being unvaccinated is irrelevant. If you won't or cannot be vaccinated, you are too much of a risk to yourself and others to be travelling internationally? I don't know how it applies for travel. For schooling (in places where vaccination is required for school), the assumption is that you're protected by those around you. (So - extrapolating/ speculating - if person from country A wants to go to country B and both have herd immunity via vaccination, presumably that would be safe. Or an acceptable risk) I get it But that herd immunity would also protect those who opted out of vaccination through choice So why wouod there be a need to differentiate? That's the bit I don't get Unless it's down to punishing those who choose not to be vaccinated, as there doesn't seem to be much logic behind it, if it is safe enough for people who can't be vaccinated to travel, then it is no more unsafe for those who are unvaccinated through personal choice for herd immunity to exist the herd need to pull together in one direction (ie vaccination) if people elect to not be vaccinated then herd immunity is less effective for all (especially the people who medically cannot be) if enough people elect not to then we don’t actually achieve herd immunity i don’t think “if you don’t support the team you don’t get to play with the team” is unreasonable but rather than see it as punishment for not vaccinating i would see the freedoms as incentive to vaccinate (but obviously not penalising people who are medically unable to) I get the thinking behind it But when it comes down to it, for a foreign country who is allowing tourists in, if there are 2 unvaccinated people wanting access, one unvaccinated through choice and one unvaccinated due to say, a severe allergy to an ingredient, from that country's perspective, neither pose more or less of a risk to the other. The risk they pose to themselves and others is the same. So where is the logic to denying one access over the other? in terms of safety there is no logic , in terms of it being the right thing to do to not penalise people for things medically beyond their control i see plenty logic and by applying this rule the numbers of unvaccinated being admitted should be small enough to not compromise the balance of herd immunity " I agree, from a safety perspective there definitely is no logic in differentiating between the two I also understand the compassionate side of things, bit when countries are probably desperate to protect their own citizens, I think the safest thing for them may be a blanket ban on unvaccinated people, regardless of reason | |||
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" I agree, from a safety perspective there definitely is no logic in differentiating between the two I also understand the compassionate side of things, bit when countries are probably desperate to protect their own citizens, I think the safest thing for them may be a blanket ban on unvaccinated people, regardless of reason"I suspect that countries will have blanket bans until they're deemed safe, and after, medical exemption. It's consistent with systems already in place. | |||
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" I agree, from a safety perspective there definitely is no logic in differentiating between the two I also understand the compassionate side of things, bit when countries are probably desperate to protect their own citizens, I think the safest thing for them may be a blanket ban on unvaccinated people, regardless of reason
I suspect that countries will have blanket bans until they're deemed safe, and after, medical exemption. It's consistent with systems already in place."It will certainly be interesting to see how this transpires. In another thought, if someone is unable to be vaccinated should they even be travelling abroad, unless for an essential purpose, such as work? | |||
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"http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-michael-gove-rules-out-vaccine-passports-for-pub-theatre-and-sport-stadium-visits-12147819 " Your link is broken but the news is from early December, it seems. I suppose it holds as much weight, as, say, Boris saying there definitely won't be a trade border down the Irish Sea? https://www.irishnews.com/news/brexit/2021/02/03/news/extend-northern-ireland-protocol-grace-periods-until-2023-michael-gove-urges-eu-2209316/ | |||
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" I agree, from a safety perspective there definitely is no logic in differentiating between the two I also understand the compassionate side of things, bit when countries are probably desperate to protect their own citizens, I think the safest thing for them may be a blanket ban on unvaccinated people, regardless of reason
I suspect that countries will have blanket bans until they're deemed safe, and after, medical exemption. It's consistent with systems already in place.
It will certainly be interesting to see how this transpires. In another thought, if someone is unable to be vaccinated should they even be travelling abroad, unless for an essential purpose, such as work? "They did pre Covid. | |||
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"http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-michael-gove-rules-out-vaccine-passports-for-pub-theatre-and-sport-stadium-visits-12147819 Your link is broken but the news is from early December, it seems. I suppose it holds as much weight, as, say, Boris saying there definitely won't be a trade border down the Irish Sea? https://www.irishnews.com/news/brexit/2021/02/03/news/extend-northern-ireland-protocol-grace-periods-until-2023-michael-gove-urges-eu-2209316/" It’s not fair for the government to carry on the way they do, to many lies told all the way through this... and no doubt more to follow. | |||
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" I agree, from a safety perspective there definitely is no logic in differentiating between the two I also understand the compassionate side of things, bit when countries are probably desperate to protect their own citizens, I think the safest thing for them may be a blanket ban on unvaccinated people, regardless of reason
I suspect that countries will have blanket bans until they're deemed safe, and after, medical exemption. It's consistent with systems already in place.
It will certainly be interesting to see how this transpires. In another thought, if someone is unable to be vaccinated should they even be travelling abroad, unless for an essential purpose, such as work?
They did pre Covid."People did a lot of things pre covid that they don't do now, for their own safety, and the safety of others. Plus, how many countries insist on vaccines for entry? Maybe if you cannot take a certain vaccine, you shouldn't go to a country which makes it a requirement of entry, to protect your own health and that of others | |||
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"http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-michael-gove-rules-out-vaccine-passports-for-pub-theatre-and-sport-stadium-visits-12147819 Your link is broken but the news is from early December, it seems. I suppose it holds as much weight, as, say, Boris saying there definitely won't be a trade border down the Irish Sea? https://www.irishnews.com/news/brexit/2021/02/03/news/extend-northern-ireland-protocol-grace-periods-until-2023-michael-gove-urges-eu-2209316/ It’s not fair for the government to carry on the way they do, to many lies told all the way through this... and no doubt more to follow. " Agreed. But Gove saying it won't happen means nothing. | |||
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"does anyone happen to know if an increase in immunised people arriving in a country will increase or decrease the herd immunity factor for said country. " If the vaccine was 100% effective... Its effect would be neutral. As the vaccine is less than 100 % effective it will decrease it. | |||
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"does anyone happen to know if an increase in immunised people arriving in a country will increase or decrease the herd immunity factor for said country. If the vaccine was 100% effective... Its effect would be neutral. As the vaccine is less than 100 % effective it will decrease it. " can i see your figures for that please? | |||
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" I agree, from a safety perspective there definitely is no logic in differentiating between the two I also understand the compassionate side of things, bit when countries are probably desperate to protect their own citizens, I think the safest thing for them may be a blanket ban on unvaccinated people, regardless of reason
I suspect that countries will have blanket bans until they're deemed safe, and after, medical exemption. It's consistent with systems already in place.
It will certainly be interesting to see how this transpires. In another thought, if someone is unable to be vaccinated should they even be travelling abroad, unless for an essential purpose, such as work?
They did pre Covid.
People did a lot of things pre covid that they don't do now, for their own safety, and the safety of others. Plus, how many countries insist on vaccines for entry? Maybe if you cannot take a certain vaccine, you shouldn't go to a country which makes it a requirement of entry, to protect your own health and that of others "I wonder if all vaccines and vaccine regimes will be acceptable to all countries.... | |||
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"How could people who can't get vaccinated get a vaccine passport? It would make the whole thing pointless. " Not really, they could be issued with an exemption certificate. | |||
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"How could people who can't get vaccinated get a vaccine passport? It would make the whole thing pointless. Not really, they could be issued with an exemption certificate. " We hope that's the case. We hope there will be exemptions and that countries will accept those but we have no idea. | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door?" I would imagine it will be a digital passport run by a third party. There’s already a few companies working on the system. And I would imagine they’ll be a prerequisite of international travel in the near future. | |||
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"How could people who can't get vaccinated get a vaccine passport? It would make the whole thing pointless. Not really, they could be issued with an exemption certificate. " That we will have to see, along with the millions of children who there is no vaccine for, how they are treated. Reading the comments here, some would be happy with a ban from society | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door?" In a way this process is already in place, as you have to have certain vaccines to visit some countries. The record is asked for when you check in, so surely it makes sense to have it all in one place, your MMR, Polio, covid, Hep C, yellow fever, etc. | |||
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"Whilst I think everybody that can have a vaccine should I fully expect some countries will want proof of vaccination before entry and travel insurance life insurance may go up without it. I do have a bit of e Problem with a vaccine passport because is this not ID cards through the back door? In a way this process is already in place, as you have to have certain vaccines to visit some countries. The record is asked for when you check in, so surely it makes sense to have it all in one place, your MMR, Polio, covid, Hep C, yellow fever, etc."
It's an age old process, that some are getting their knickers in a twist over now. | |||
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" We have never made any form of vaccine mandatory in this country and having a vaccine passport is very close to that and people need To think of the consequences. What if Billy can't have a vaccine, should he be denied an education. Or Billies mum is anti-vaccine which is not billies fault should Billie also be denied an education? This is a real concern, We have to carful what we accept to solve one problem." The smallpox vaccine was mandatory, so it has been done before, and to great effect. | |||
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