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Now I have seen it all
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Antivaxxers getting more brazen and argue with doctors about treatment of covid patients
From Daily Mail
Including a video from “the rescue”.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10042383/Anti-vaxxer-rescues-Covid-hit-patient-Irish-hospital-claiming-treatment-kill-him.html
Pensioner suffering from Covid dies just days after Italian anti-vaxxer 'rescues' him from Irish hospital claiming treatment would kill him
Covid patient Joe McCarron, 67, from Dungloe, County Donegal, was encouraged to leave Letterkenny University Hospital by his anti-vaxxer 'friends' on Tuesday, September 14.
However, he was rushed back into hospital by ambulance less than two days later, suffering from serious breathing difficulties, and died a week later on September 24.
Antonio, a restaurant owner and former Italian soldier, claimed that Joe was being forced into the intensive care unit and that they were 'rescuing' him as the treatment would kill him.
He is heard in the clip saying: 'If you stay here, they're going to f****** kill you, Joe.'
The video, filmed by Antonio and later posted on Twitter, shows the tense interaction between the Joe and medical staff before he leaves hospital, with staff warning him that he could die at home.
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"Antivaxxers getting more brazen and argue with doctors about treatment of covid patients
From Daily Mail
Including a video from “the rescue”.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10042383/Anti-vaxxer-rescues-Covid-hit-patient-Irish-hospital-claiming-treatment-kill-him.html
Pensioner suffering from Covid dies just days after Italian anti-vaxxer 'rescues' him from Irish hospital claiming treatment would kill him
Covid patient Joe McCarron, 67, from Dungloe, County Donegal, was encouraged to leave Letterkenny University Hospital by his anti-vaxxer 'friends' on Tuesday, September 14.
However, he was rushed back into hospital by ambulance less than two days later, suffering from serious breathing difficulties, and died a week later on September 24.
Antonio, a restaurant owner and former Italian soldier, claimed that Joe was being forced into the intensive care unit and that they were 'rescuing' him as the treatment would kill him.
He is heard in the clip saying: 'If you stay here, they're going to f****** kill you, Joe.'
The video, filmed by Antonio and later posted on Twitter, shows the tense interaction between the Joe and medical staff before he leaves hospital, with staff warning him that he could die at home.
"
Is that antivax or is it questioning the care the quality of care the nhs gives the elderly? In which case I would absolutely agree with questioning the safe treatment of some of the elderly. |
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"Antivaxxers getting more brazen and argue with doctors about treatment of covid patients
From Daily Mail
Including a video from “the rescue”.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10042383/Anti-vaxxer-rescues-Covid-hit-patient-Irish-hospital-claiming-treatment-kill-him.html
Pensioner suffering from Covid dies just days after Italian anti-vaxxer 'rescues' him from Irish hospital claiming treatment would kill him
Covid patient Joe McCarron, 67, from Dungloe, County Donegal, was encouraged to leave Letterkenny University Hospital by his anti-vaxxer 'friends' on Tuesday, September 14.
However, he was rushed back into hospital by ambulance less than two days later, suffering from serious breathing difficulties, and died a week later on September 24.
Antonio, a restaurant owner and former Italian soldier, claimed that Joe was being forced into the intensive care unit and that they were 'rescuing' him as the treatment would kill him.
He is heard in the clip saying: 'If you stay here, they're going to f****** kill you, Joe.'
The video, filmed by Antonio and later posted on Twitter, shows the tense interaction between the Joe and medical staff before he leaves hospital, with staff warning him that he could die at home.
Is that antivax or is it questioning the care the quality of care the nhs gives the elderly? In which case I would absolutely agree with questioning the safe treatment of some of the elderly. "
In this case (in the Republic of Ireland), it is an antivaxxer who together with some lawyers thought of saving this patient against doctors wishes. This particular antivaxxer is seen on an older youtube video questionimg the authority of an Irish police officer. Essentially it is the people who have the authority and not the police.So this guy has a chip on his shoulder.
In Greece, antivaxxers and some lawyers are doing the same and question doctors amd their motives on hospitalising people.
Although hospitals may not be ideal, it is where people with covid go when they are too ill to stay at home.
And doctors usually know more than lawyers, the patient’s family and antivaxxer activists.
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"Antivaxxers getting more brazen and argue with doctors about treatment of covid patients
From Daily Mail
Including a video from “the rescue”.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10042383/Anti-vaxxer-rescues-Covid-hit-patient-Irish-hospital-claiming-treatment-kill-him.html
Pensioner suffering from Covid dies just days after Italian anti-vaxxer 'rescues' him from Irish hospital claiming treatment would kill him
Covid patient Joe McCarron, 67, from Dungloe, County Donegal, was encouraged to leave Letterkenny University Hospital by his anti-vaxxer 'friends' on Tuesday, September 14.
However, he was rushed back into hospital by ambulance less than two days later, suffering from serious breathing difficulties, and died a week later on September 24.
Antonio, a restaurant owner and former Italian soldier, claimed that Joe was being forced into the intensive care unit and that they were 'rescuing' him as the treatment would kill him.
He is heard in the clip saying: 'If you stay here, they're going to f****** kill you, Joe.'
The video, filmed by Antonio and later posted on Twitter, shows the tense interaction between the Joe and medical staff before he leaves hospital, with staff warning him that he could die at home.
Is that antivax or is it questioning the care the quality of care the nhs gives the elderly? In which case I would absolutely agree with questioning the safe treatment of some of the elderly. "
It os not about the quality/treatment of health the eldery receive. Antivaxxers and some lawyers are involved in questioning everything (at least in Greece). Hospitalisation/intubation of younger and older people, use of masks and tests for schoolchildren (law requires this for children to attend school). But some parents are protesting this by suing teachers who do not allow children without tests and masks to attend. They are influenced by lawyers who are making a mint by uploading legal papers for parents to download and fill. |
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Sad that someone was so blinded by dogmatic beliefs that they would fight so hard to get a friend away from the huge expertise that the medical profession now has, to help to save so many lives from this deadly virus. Tragic that he potentially helped to cause the loss of his friend's life  |
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"So now the daily mail is now a trusted and reliable source of news?
Usually everyone on here bashes the 'daily fail' for being toilet paper etc etc. "
You do not need to rely on daily mail for this.
Irish newspapers also wroye anout it.
And if you are fluent in Italian quite a few big Italian newspapers wrote about it because the antivaxxer activist is Italian.
You can pick your trusted source.
Unfortunately it is something that has happened and the antivaxxer had the audacity to record it and post it.
I do not know whether he will be found liable of some sort of crime but I hope he does as he went to the hospital and convinced a guy who was sick with covid that the doctors there would kill him, yhat his oxugen level was ok and that he would ne better off at home. |
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https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/senior-garda-appointed-to-lead-investigation-into-donegal-hospital-incident-1.4684246
https://www.ilmessaggero.it/salute/storie/antonio_mureddu_no_vax_italiano_convince_anziano_lasciare_ospedale_morto_covid_irlanda-6222247.html
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It's a strange statement as most people use now I've seen it all several times in their lives so really every time before that they hadn't seen it all!.
I never get flabbergasted by human behaviour because I never put them on a pedestal in the first place.
Hope for the best, plan for the worst, expect the unexpected.
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"It's a strange statement as most people use now I've seen it all several times in their lives so really every time before that they hadn't seen it all!.
I never get flabbergasted by human behaviour because I never put them on a pedestal in the first place.
Hope for the best, plan for the worst, expect the unexpected.
"
I have heard about such efforts. I have read anout such efforts. But now I have seen it too. It is on video, taken by the guy who did it when he did it. He thought that he was doing the right thing. But questioning the doctors who were trying to save the poor man? This antivaxxer hero actiivist is a caterer. Do you see much logic in this particular case? |
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"It's a strange statement as most people use now I've seen it all several times in their lives so really every time before that they hadn't seen it all!.
I never get flabbergasted by human behaviour because I never put them on a pedestal in the first place.
Hope for the best, plan for the worst, expect the unexpected.
I have heard about such efforts. I have read anout such efforts. But now I have seen it too. It is on video, taken by the guy who did it when he did it. He thought that he was doing the right thing. But questioning the doctors who were trying to save the poor man? This antivaxxer hero actiivist is a caterer. Do you see much logic in this particular case?"
Zero but then humans primarily run on instinct not logic, hence the worlds rabid problems with drugs, over eating, alcohol and SEX etc.
If you instinctively believe the government has it in for you, your instinct will be to question authority on everything, this is our main problem with vaccine mandating, your simply making the problem worse and then you get the entrenched authoritarian pendulum catch 22 effect. |
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By *ugby 123Couple
over a year ago
Forum Mod O o O oo |
"So now the daily mail is now a trusted and reliable source of news?
Usually everyone on here bashes the 'daily fail' for being toilet paper etc etc. "
This happens every time someone mentions a News source that someone doesn't like and adds nothing at all to the OP, do your research, the news is out there in multiple places
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/joe-mccarron-man-released-from-donegal-hospital-by-anti-vaccine-campaigners-to-be-buried-today-40888273.html |
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"It's a strange statement as most people use now I've seen it all several times in their lives so really every time before that they hadn't seen it all!.
I never get flabbergasted by human behaviour because I never put them on a pedestal in the first place.
Hope for the best, plan for the worst, expect the unexpected.
I have heard about such efforts. I have read anout such efforts. But now I have seen it too. It is on video, taken by the guy who did it when he did it. He thought that he was doing the right thing. But questioning the doctors who were trying to save the poor man? This antivaxxer hero actiivist is a caterer. Do you see much logic in this particular case?
Zero but then humans primarily run on instinct not logic, hence the worlds rabid problems with drugs, over eating, alcohol and SEX etc.
If you instinctively believe the government has it in for you, your instinct will be to question authority on everything, this is our main problem with vaccine mandating, your simply making the problem worse and then you get the entrenched authoritarian pendulum catch 22 effect."
But if someone gets very sick instictively goes to a hospital, consults doctors. If there is need for hospitalisation he/she listens. In this case, the sick man can hardly take a breath. Nothing to do with vaccine mandate here, the man needed help. He did the right thing initially, he followed his instinct to seek help. The doctors would not jab him, they would try to help him.
The rest (the antivaxxer action was not needed there).The persons who helped created this mess should not be there in the first place. They obviously did not expect that they were making things worse (does not mean though that the sick man would recover if he had stayed in the hospital) but they made things worse. And the most important thing is they were not qualified. They were acting on beliefs or whatever information they have found.
I am in favour of the vaccines. However, I am not a doctor and I would never go to a hospital trying to argue with the doctors on what course of action to take over a patient. |
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By *ovebjsMan
over a year ago
Bristol |
Unfortunately there is always someone untrained who knows what best for you 
The problem is that unless there is some sort or power of attorney it’s the patient who has the last say and if they refuse treatment there’s nothing the hospital staff can do about it.
I would have thought that the guy would at least be guilty of coercion?
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"Unfortunately there is always someone untrained who knows what best for you
The problem is that unless there is some sort or power of attorney it’s the patient who has the last say and if they refuse treatment there’s nothing the hospital staff can do about it.
I would have thought that the guy would at least be guilty of coercion?
"
Police are investigating.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/senior-garda-appointed-to-lead-investigation-into-donegal-hospital-incident-1.4684246 |
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"It's a strange statement as most people use now I've seen it all several times in their lives so really every time before that they hadn't seen it all!.
I never get flabbergasted by human behaviour because I never put them on a pedestal in the first place.
Hope for the best, plan for the worst, expect the unexpected.
I have heard about such efforts. I have read anout such efforts. But now I have seen it too. It is on video, taken by the guy who did it when he did it. He thought that he was doing the right thing. But questioning the doctors who were trying to save the poor man? This antivaxxer hero actiivist is a caterer. Do you see much logic in this particular case?
Zero but then humans primarily run on instinct not logic, hence the worlds rabid problems with drugs, over eating, alcohol and SEX etc.
If you instinctively believe the government has it in for you, your instinct will be to question authority on everything, this is our main problem with vaccine mandating, your simply making the problem worse and then you get the entrenched authoritarian pendulum catch 22 effect.
But if someone gets very sick instictively goes to a hospital, consults doctors. If there is need for hospitalisation he/she listens. In this case, the sick man can hardly take a breath. Nothing to do with vaccine mandate here, the man needed help. He did the right thing initially, he followed his instinct to seek help. The doctors would not jab him, they would try to help him.
The rest (the antivaxxer action was not needed there).The persons who helped created this mess should not be there in the first place. They obviously did not expect that they were making things worse (does not mean though that the sick man would recover if he had stayed in the hospital) but they made things worse. And the most important thing is they were not qualified. They were acting on beliefs or whatever information they have found.
I am in favour of the vaccines. However, I am not a doctor and I would never go to a hospital trying to argue with the doctors on what course of action to take over a patient."
I wasn't taking from the patients perspective but the chap that removed him, your looking for logic in a species that doesn't run on logic, that's like looking for emotion from a computer. |
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"Antivaxxers getting more brazen and argue with doctors about treatment of covid patients
From Daily Mail
Including a video from “the rescue”.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10042383/Anti-vaxxer-rescues-Covid-hit-patient-Irish-hospital-claiming-treatment-kill-him.html
Pensioner suffering from Covid dies just days after Italian anti-vaxxer 'rescues' him from Irish hospital claiming treatment would kill him
Covid patient Joe McCarron, 67, from Dungloe, County Donegal, was encouraged to leave Letterkenny University Hospital by his anti-vaxxer 'friends' on Tuesday, September 14.
However, he was rushed back into hospital by ambulance less than two days later, suffering from serious breathing difficulties, and died a week later on September 24.
Antonio, a restaurant owner and former Italian soldier, claimed that Joe was being forced into the intensive care unit and that they were 'rescuing' him as the treatment would kill him.
He is heard in the clip saying: 'If you stay here, they're going to f****** kill you, Joe.'
The video, filmed by Antonio and later posted on Twitter, shows the tense interaction between the Joe and medical staff before he leaves hospital, with staff warning him that he could die at home.
Is that antivax or is it questioning the care the quality of care the nhs gives the elderly? In which case I would absolutely agree with questioning the safe treatment of some of the elderly. "
Just out of interest.
If your elderly relative was sick, would you take them to A&E or local hospital.
If so, would you stay at their bedside and question (not argue) each stage of their care.
I don't have any problem with patients or their families asking about care and prognosis.
Sometimes, its difficult to converse with a patient as family members answer questions for them when they can quite happily answer themselves, but maybe take a bit longer as they are unwell.
Had one last week where a family member was continually putting their finger to the side of her head and making a rolling motion with her finger to denote some form of mental fragility or in her words, she's a bit bonkers.
Sadly, the patient was far from being 'a bit bonkers' just need a bit of time to answer.
Nowt stranger than folk, as they say.  |
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I watched some of the video and the anti vaxxer also said soemthing along the lines of if he dies he will die at home so they knew what they were doing was risking the man's life. So sad to see such a vulnerable man manipulated by a bully. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Antivaxxers getting more brazen and argue with doctors about treatment of covid patients
From Daily Mail
Including a video from “the rescue”.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10042383/Anti-vaxxer-rescues-Covid-hit-patient-Irish-hospital-claiming-treatment-kill-him.html
Pensioner suffering from Covid dies just days after Italian anti-vaxxer 'rescues' him from Irish hospital claiming treatment would kill him
Covid patient Joe McCarron, 67, from Dungloe, County Donegal, was encouraged to leave Letterkenny University Hospital by his anti-vaxxer 'friends' on Tuesday, September 14.
However, he was rushed back into hospital by ambulance less than two days later, suffering from serious breathing difficulties, and died a week later on September 24.
Antonio, a restaurant owner and former Italian soldier, claimed that Joe was being forced into the intensive care unit and that they were 'rescuing' him as the treatment would kill him.
He is heard in the clip saying: 'If you stay here, they're going to f****** kill you, Joe.'
The video, filmed by Antonio and later posted on Twitter, shows the tense interaction between the Joe and medical staff before he leaves hospital, with staff warning him that he could die at home.
"
stop circle jerking and using stories like this to tarnish or label everyone against the vaccine as an anti vaxxer. i see what you are doing and it's pathetic.
yes it's a sad story and i dont agree with the choices that were made but you are so transparent.
i've seen this often, people in the forums cherry picking a story where some idiotic human being has done something stupid and is related to some against covid-19 vaccine stance and you point it out to others to justify your narrative that all anti- vaxxers are like this.
Get a grip. |
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"Antivaxxers getting more brazen and argue with doctors about treatment of covid patients
From Daily Mail
Including a video from “the rescue”.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10042383/Anti-vaxxer-rescues-Covid-hit-patient-Irish-hospital-claiming-treatment-kill-him.html
Pensioner suffering from Covid dies just days after Italian anti-vaxxer 'rescues' him from Irish hospital claiming treatment would kill him
Covid patient Joe McCarron, 67, from Dungloe, County Donegal, was encouraged to leave Letterkenny University Hospital by his anti-vaxxer 'friends' on Tuesday, September 14.
However, he was rushed back into hospital by ambulance less than two days later, suffering from serious breathing difficulties, and died a week later on September 24.
Antonio, a restaurant owner and former Italian soldier, claimed that Joe was being forced into the intensive care unit and that they were 'rescuing' him as the treatment would kill him.
He is heard in the clip saying: 'If you stay here, they're going to f****** kill you, Joe.'
The video, filmed by Antonio and later posted on Twitter, shows the tense interaction between the Joe and medical staff before he leaves hospital, with staff warning him that he could die at home.
stop circle jerking and using stories like this to tarnish or label everyone against the vaccine as an anti vaxxer. i see what you are doing and it's pathetic.
yes it's a sad story and i dont agree with the choices that were made but you are so transparent.
i've seen this often, people in the forums cherry picking a story where some idiotic human being has done something stupid and is related to some against covid-19 vaccine stance and you point it out to others to justify your narrative that all anti- vaxxers are like this.
Get a grip. "
I only said that this is happening and there are people who are influenced by people like them. This is a reality. I am not generalising. It is you that you are generalising if you think that all vaccinated people think that all antivaxxers are like that. This particular antivaxxer was doing it for political reasons. Others like Dr Mercola to sell books and vitamins and whatever. You I do not know and I do not care really. You may be against vaccines because you are influenced by others or because you have done your own research. But you are generalising on how I perceive all antivaxxers. And by antivaxxers I do not mean sceptics. |
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By *drianukMan
over a year ago
Spain, Preston |
I've not heard anyone deny that coronavirus kills people.
What people ARE doing is questioning the damage that the illness can do against the damage that the jabs can cause.
That is entirely sensible |
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"Antivaxxers getting more brazen and argue with doctors about treatment of covid patients
From Daily Mail
Including a video from “the rescue”.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10042383/Anti-vaxxer-rescues-Covid-hit-patient-Irish-hospital-claiming-treatment-kill-him.html
Pensioner suffering from Covid dies just days after Italian anti-vaxxer 'rescues' him from Irish hospital claiming treatment would kill him
Covid patient Joe McCarron, 67, from Dungloe, County Donegal, was encouraged to leave Letterkenny University Hospital by his anti-vaxxer 'friends' on Tuesday, September 14.
However, he was rushed back into hospital by ambulance less than two days later, suffering from serious breathing difficulties, and died a week later on September 24.
Antonio, a restaurant owner and former Italian soldier, claimed that Joe was being forced into the intensive care unit and that they were 'rescuing' him as the treatment would kill him.
He is heard in the clip saying: 'If you stay here, they're going to f****** kill you, Joe.'
The video, filmed by Antonio and later posted on Twitter, shows the tense interaction between the Joe and medical staff before he leaves hospital, with staff warning him that he could die at home.
stop circle jerking and using stories like this to tarnish or label everyone against the vaccine as an anti vaxxer. i see what you are doing and it's pathetic.
yes it's a sad story and i dont agree with the choices that were made but you are so transparent.
i've seen this often, people in the forums cherry picking a story where some idiotic human being has done something stupid and is related to some against covid-19 vaccine stance and you point it out to others to justify your narrative that all anti- vaxxers are like this.
Get a grip. "
Hey at least some forum users are actually using reliable sources and quotes to back up their argument/agenda (or whatever you want to call it). Slightly more credible than the usual "it's a fact", "everybody knows" type of response from those against the vaccine eh? |
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"I've not heard anyone deny that coronavirus kills people.
What people ARE doing is questioning the damage that the illness can do against the damage that the jabs can cause.
That is entirely sensible"
Ok that's fair enough, absolutely people should do research and question things in a rational manner.
Have you got comparable evidence that shows where COVID vaccines cause death/cause serious illness against where they are responsible for saving lives/stopping people from getting seriously ill?
After all it should be a balanced debate.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Antivaxxers getting more brazen and argue with doctors about treatment of covid patients
From Daily Mail
Including a video from “the rescue”.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10042383/Anti-vaxxer-rescues-Covid-hit-patient-Irish-hospital-claiming-treatment-kill-him.html
Pensioner suffering from Covid dies just days after Italian anti-vaxxer 'rescues' him from Irish hospital claiming treatment would kill him
Covid patient Joe McCarron, 67, from Dungloe, County Donegal, was encouraged to leave Letterkenny University Hospital by his anti-vaxxer 'friends' on Tuesday, September 14.
However, he was rushed back into hospital by ambulance less than two days later, suffering from serious breathing difficulties, and died a week later on September 24.
Antonio, a restaurant owner and former Italian soldier, claimed that Joe was being forced into the intensive care unit and that they were 'rescuing' him as the treatment would kill him.
He is heard in the clip saying: 'If you stay here, they're going to f****** kill you, Joe.'
The video, filmed by Antonio and later posted on Twitter, shows the tense interaction between the Joe and medical staff before he leaves hospital, with staff warning him that he could die at home.
stop circle jerking and using stories like this to tarnish or label everyone against the vaccine as an anti vaxxer. i see what you are doing and it's pathetic.
yes it's a sad story and i dont agree with the choices that were made but you are so transparent.
i've seen this often, people in the forums cherry picking a story where some idiotic human being has done something stupid and is related to some against covid-19 vaccine stance and you point it out to others to justify your narrative that all anti- vaxxers are like this.
Get a grip.
Hey at least some forum users are actually using reliable sources and quotes to back up their argument/agenda (or whatever you want to call it). Slightly more credible than the usual "it's a fact", "everybody knows" type of response from those against the vaccine eh? "
theyre an entirely different bunch, and its getting old on both sides honestly. |
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Well Mr4 here and me being a old fart is that Daily Mail the very same Daily Mail that carried the story about the links between autism and the mmr jab ??? and that sort of helped this whole anti vaxxer thing and isn't the Dr who the Daily Mail so happily featured on their front page now a leading Anti vaxxer in America but i suppose i'm not supposed to remember stuff like that ??  |
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By *ugby 123Couple
over a year ago
Forum Mod O o O oo |
" Well Mr4 here and me being a old fart is that Daily Mail the very same Daily Mail that carried the story about the links between autism and the mmr jab ??? and that sort of helped this whole anti vaxxer thing and isn't the Dr who the Daily Mail so happily featured on their front page now a leading Anti vaxxer in America but i suppose i'm not supposed to remember stuff like that ?? "
This is what I meant about threads going a totally different way because a News source has been mentioned. The OP is not about a newspaper
Back to the OP ( many News resources are available reporting the same story) |
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" Well Mr4 here and me being a old fart is that Daily Mail the very same Daily Mail that carried the story about the links between autism and the mmr jab ??? and that sort of helped this whole anti vaxxer thing and isn't the Dr who the Daily Mail so happily featured on their front page now a leading Anti vaxxer in America but i suppose i'm not supposed to remember stuff like that ??
This is what I meant about threads going a totally different way because a News source has been mentioned. The OP is not about a newspaper
Back to the OP ( many News resources are available reporting the same story)"
Yes. And I mentioned other news sources too.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/senior-garda-appointed-to-lead-investigation-into-donegal-hospital-incident-1.4684246
https://www.ilmessaggero.it/salute/storie/antonio_mureddu_no_vax_italiano_convince_anziano_lasciare_ospedale_morto_covid_irlanda-6222247.html
I understand that Daily Mail is not everyone’s cup of tea but in this case it was reporting a real story.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Honestly it’s not worth getting outraged over any more. On either side. They’re in a very small minority and there’s no point spreading their views or getting worked up about it.
Life is stressful as it is. |
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By *drianukMan
over a year ago
Spain, Preston |
"I've not heard anyone deny that coronavirus kills people.
What people ARE doing is questioning the damage that the illness can do against the damage that the jabs can cause.
That is entirely sensible
Ok that's fair enough, absolutely people should do research and question things in a rational manner.
Have you got comparable evidence that shows where COVID vaccines cause death/cause serious illness against where they are responsible for saving lives/stopping people from getting seriously ill?
After all it should be a balanced debate.
"
Please provide figures showing death/injury rates for those who haven't had the jab.
It must be a balanced debate |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I've not heard anyone deny that coronavirus kills people.
What people ARE doing is questioning the damage that the illness can do against the damage that the jabs can cause.
That is entirely sensible
Ok that's fair enough, absolutely people should do research and question things in a rational manner.
Have you got comparable evidence that shows where COVID vaccines cause death/cause serious illness against where they are responsible for saving lives/stopping people from getting seriously ill?
After all it should be a balanced debate.
Please provide figures showing death/injury rates for those who haven't had the jab.
It must be a balanced debate"
There have been 1600 deaths following a jab. Assuming all these are due to the vaccine (unlikely but will be generous) that's c 4 per 100,000 (just counting double vaccinated ppl to make it as high as possible)
Looking at an unweighted average from the vaccination survalinace, the death rate per 100,000 is c 9 for vaccinated and c 37 for unvaccinated.
So overall, my death rate it vaccinated is 13 per 100,000. And unvaccinated is 37.
Clearer winner on high level data.
Of course, it varies by age. But I don't have the yellow flag data by age. I've also taken a load of broad strokes here. But it's a sizeable gap even with me probably being more generous to the unvaccinated in my approach. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I've not heard anyone deny that coronavirus kills people.
What people ARE doing is questioning the damage that the illness can do against the damage that the jabs can cause.
That is entirely sensible
Ok that's fair enough, absolutely people should do research and question things in a rational manner.
Have you got comparable evidence that shows where COVID vaccines cause death/cause serious illness against where they are responsible for saving lives/stopping people from getting seriously ill?
After all it should be a balanced debate.
Please provide figures showing death/injury rates for those who haven't had the jab.
It must be a balanced debate
There have been 1600 deaths following a jab. Assuming all these are due to the vaccine (unlikely but will be generous) that's c 4 per 100,000 (just counting double vaccinated ppl to make it as high as possible)
Looking at an unweighted average from the vaccination survalinace, the death rate per 100,000 is c 9 for vaccinated and c 37 for unvaccinated.
So overall, my death rate it vaccinated is 13 per 100,000. And unvaccinated is 37.
Clearer winner on high level data.
Of course, it varies by age. But I don't have the yellow flag data by age. I've also taken a load of broad strokes here. But it's a sizeable gap even with me probably being more generous to the unvaccinated in my approach. "
Let’s not disregard a death up until two weeks after being fully vaxxed is counted as an unvaccinated person. With this knowledge in reality how can anyone truly know.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I've not heard anyone deny that coronavirus kills people.
What people ARE doing is questioning the damage that the illness can do against the damage that the jabs can cause.
That is entirely sensible
Ok that's fair enough, absolutely people should do research and question things in a rational manner.
Have you got comparable evidence that shows where COVID vaccines cause death/cause serious illness against where they are responsible for saving lives/stopping people from getting seriously ill?
After all it should be a balanced debate.
Please provide figures showing death/injury rates for those who haven't had the jab.
It must be a balanced debate
There have been 1600 deaths following a jab. Assuming all these are due to the vaccine (unlikely but will be generous) that's c 4 per 100,000 (just counting double vaccinated ppl to make it as high as possible)
Looking at an unweighted average from the vaccination survalinace, the death rate per 100,000 is c 9 for vaccinated and c 37 for unvaccinated.
So overall, my death rate it vaccinated is 13 per 100,000. And unvaccinated is 37.
Clearer winner on high level data.
Of course, it varies by age. But I don't have the yellow flag data by age. I've also taken a load of broad strokes here. But it's a sizeable gap even with me probably being more generous to the unvaccinated in my approach.
Let’s not disregard a death up until two weeks after being fully vaxxed is counted as an unvaccinated person. With this knowledge in reality how can anyone truly know. "
given the difference between the two, would you agree vaccination helps? And as such, if we include those less than 2 weeks as unvaccinated, it probably means the unvaxx rate is under played as it's benefiting from some of the vax benefits. |
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By *drianukMan
over a year ago
Spain, Preston |
You have made my earlier point: that it is good to look at the facts and figures, rather than just condemning.
And some people, of course, may have other data.
People bshould never be condemned in such a casual, lazy fashion as we often see on these threads |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You have made my earlier point: that it is good to look at the facts and figures, rather than just condemning.
And some people, of course, may have other data.
People bshould never be condemned in such a casual, lazy fashion as we often see on these threads"
And i'd welcome seeing that data.
However my impression here is that the "fear of vaccine" side offer less in the way of data. That may be bias from my side. But it does appear the fear comes from anecdotal evidence.
(I do also accept my back of a gag packet number crunching may have huge holes in it's approach. So welcome people to pick holes too!)
|
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"You have made my earlier point: that it is good to look at the facts and figures, rather than just condemning.
And some people, of course, may have other data.
People bshould never be condemned in such a casual, lazy fashion as we often see on these threads
And i'd welcome seeing that data.
However my impression here is that the "fear of vaccine" side offer less in the way of data. That may be bias from my side. But it does appear the fear comes from anecdotal evidence.
(I do also accept my back of a gag packet number crunching may have huge holes in it's approach. So welcome people to pick holes too!)
"
The "fear of the unvaxed" could be addresses by Comprehensive, trustworthy, up to date data by sex by age group by vax / unvax would be very helpful in alleviating peoples concerns I'm sure. Wonder where it can be found though...and that might also help address those with fear of the vax. Not sure why such data is not being communicated far and wide though.
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"You have made my earlier point: that it is good to look at the facts and figures, rather than just condemning.
And some people, of course, may have other data.
People bshould never be condemned in such a casual, lazy fashion as we often see on these threads
And i'd welcome seeing that data.
However my impression here is that the "fear of vaccine" side offer less in the way of data. That may be bias from my side. But it does appear the fear comes from anecdotal evidence.
(I do also accept my back of a gag packet number crunching may have huge holes in it's approach. So welcome people to pick holes too!)
The "fear of the unvaxed" could be addresses by Comprehensive, trustworthy, up to date data by sex by age group by vax / unvax would be very helpful in alleviating peoples concerns I'm sure. Wonder where it can be found though...and that might also help address those with fear of the vax. Not sure why such data is not being communicated far and wide though.
"
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting#analysis-of-data
This may help.
Imo, even of someone published a table, it won't change minds. There will be another reason. Or they will view the data with suspicion. |
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"You have made my earlier point: that it is good to look at the facts and figures, rather than just condemning.
And some people, of course, may have other data.
People bshould never be condemned in such a casual, lazy fashion as we often see on these threads
And i'd welcome seeing that data.
However my impression here is that the "fear of vaccine" side offer less in the way of data. That may be bias from my side. But it does appear the fear comes from anecdotal evidence.
(I do also accept my back of a gag packet number crunching may have huge holes in it's approach. So welcome people to pick holes too!)
The "fear of the unvaxed" could be addresses by Comprehensive, trustworthy, up to date data by sex by age group by vax / unvax would be very helpful in alleviating peoples concerns I'm sure. Wonder where it can be found though...and that might also help address those with fear of the vax. Not sure why such data is not being communicated far and wide though.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting#analysis-of-data
This may help.
Imo, even of someone published a table, it won't change minds. There will be another reason. Or they will view the data with suspicion. "
This is a very valid point.
Many of the sceptics who have not done the vaccine mistrust the government (s) and have been influenced by sources that are questionable to say the least.
As for the antivaxxers, they are a lost cause. They are thinking too much, researching too much (or too little).
In today’s news it has been revealed that from the last 100,000 people (out of the 700,000 since the beginning of the pandemic) who have died due to covid, 97% were unvaccinated.
And as for the people who claim that the chance of healthy amd younger people dying from covid is negligible, there were in the news today the deaths of two young British people both unvaccinated) a 15 year old girl and a 24 year old woman. The 15 year old girl was due to have her vaccine but got covid and within a few days died from myocarditis…
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"I think it is very sad that there are still people out there ( including the deceased ) who deny there is Covid killing people. Sadly some are finding it out the hard way"
Some people "find out" the hard way and still continue to deny. My mother intended to break my stepfather out of the COVID intensive care where he was being treated. The only thing that stopped her was the fact she had COVID at the same time (which she obviously denied) and was too exhausted to do it. My stepfather died of COVID a week after admission (and about 4 days after my Grandad/her father). My mother claims he died because the doctors and nurses OD'd him on morphine deliberately. She continues to deny COVID and spread anti-pandemic and anti-vax propaganda. She knows the man in Essex who tried similar patient "rescues" back in Dec 2020/Jan this year. She's completely loopy. |
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We are fortunate here in the UK because the vaccination rate among adults is high.
I was reading on CNN (yes another mainstream media, my apologies) that the bottom 10 countries (among the EU 27 are all from the former Eastern European bloc with the worst ones being Romania with 35% and Bulgaria with 32% respectively. And this says a lot, the people of ex communist countries who had lived for decades fearing and mistrusting their governments still mistrust what they are being told about covid and the vaccines. |
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"You have made my earlier point: that it is good to look at the facts and figures, rather than just condemning.
And some people, of course, may have other data.
People bshould never be condemned in such a casual, lazy fashion as we often see on these threads
And i'd welcome seeing that data.
However my impression here is that the "fear of vaccine" side offer less in the way of data. That may be bias from my side. But it does appear the fear comes from anecdotal evidence.
(I do also accept my back of a gag packet number crunching may have huge holes in it's approach. So welcome people to pick holes too!)
The "fear of the unvaxed" could be addresses by Comprehensive, trustworthy, up to date data by sex by age group by vax / unvax would be very helpful in alleviating peoples concerns I'm sure. Wonder where it can be found though...and that might also help address those with fear of the vax. Not sure why such data is not being communicated far and wide though.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting#analysis-of-data
This may help.
Imo, even of someone published a table, it won't change minds. There will be another reason. Or they will view the data with suspicion.
This is a very valid point.
Many of the sceptics who have not done the vaccine mistrust the government (s) and have been influenced by sources that are questionable to say the least.
As for the antivaxxers, they are a lost cause. They are thinking too much, researching too much (or too little).
In today’s news it has been revealed that from the last 100,000 people (out of the 700,000 since the beginning of the pandemic) who have died due to covid, 97% were unvaccinated.
And as for the people who claim that the chance of healthy amd younger people dying from covid is negligible, there were in the news today the deaths of two young British people both unvaccinated) a 15 year old girl and a 24 year old woman. The 15 year old girl was due to have her vaccine but got covid and within a few days died from myocarditis…
"
In today’s news it has been revealed that from the last 100,000 people (out of the 700,000 since the beginning of the pandemic) who have died due to covid, 97% were unvaccinated.
What do you mean here?
This entire paragraph make's no sense |
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"You have made my earlier point: that it is good to look at the facts and figures, rather than just condemning.
And some people, of course, may have other data.
People bshould never be condemned in such a casual, lazy fashion as we often see on these threads
And i'd welcome seeing that data.
However my impression here is that the "fear of vaccine" side offer less in the way of data. That may be bias from my side. But it does appear the fear comes from anecdotal evidence.
(I do also accept my back of a gag packet number crunching may have huge holes in it's approach. So welcome people to pick holes too!)
The "fear of the unvaxed" could be addresses by Comprehensive, trustworthy, up to date data by sex by age group by vax / unvax would be very helpful in alleviating peoples concerns I'm sure. Wonder where it can be found though...and that might also help address those with fear of the vax. Not sure why such data is not being communicated far and wide though.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting#analysis-of-data
This may help.
Imo, even of someone published a table, it won't change minds. There will be another reason. Or they will view the data with suspicion.
This is a very valid point.
Many of the sceptics who have not done the vaccine mistrust the government (s) and have been influenced by sources that are questionable to say the least.
As for the antivaxxers, they are a lost cause. They are thinking too much, researching too much (or too little).
In today’s news it has been revealed that from the last 100,000 people (out of the 700,000 since the beginning of the pandemic) who have died due to covid, 97% were unvaccinated.
And as for the people who claim that the chance of healthy amd younger people dying from covid is negligible, there were in the news today the deaths of two young British people both unvaccinated) a 15 year old girl and a 24 year old woman. The 15 year old girl was due to have her vaccine but got covid and within a few days died from myocarditis…
In today’s news it has been revealed that from the last 100,000 people (out of the 700,000 since the beginning of the pandemic) who have died due to covid, 97% were unvaccinated.
What do you mean here?
This entire paragraph make's no sense"
Sorry. Since the beginning of the pandemic, 700,000 people have died in the US due to covid.
97% of the last 100,000 people who died from covid in the US were unvaccinated.
|
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America is a funny old place
When Trump was in charge (during which time the vaccine was developed) the democrat picks (both Bdden and Harris) made disparaging remarks about it (essentially saying they wouldn't trust a vaccine if trump told them to take it) whereas they then used the same vaccine and can't understand why people don't want to take it
Everything is so political over there, and they have a (some would argue healthy) skepticism of big pharma companies and their frankly complete lack of morals when it comes down to profit margins |
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"America is a funny old place
When Trump was in charge (during which time the vaccine was developed) the democrat picks (both Bdden and Harris) made disparaging remarks about it (essentially saying they wouldn't trust a vaccine if trump told them to take it) whereas they then used the same vaccine and can't understand why people don't want to take it
Everything is so political over there, and they have a (some would argue healthy) skepticism of big pharma companies and their frankly complete lack of morals when it comes down to profit margins"
They are very divided. In so many things. Gun ownership, abortion, vaccination…
https://www.businessinsider.com/majority-of-trump-voters-believe-its-time-to-secede-survey-finds-2021-10?r=US&IR=T
A majority of people who voted for former President Donald Trump are in favor of breaking up the country, a new poll from the University of Virginia Center for Politics has found.
UVA surveyed 2,012 voters — half of whom voted for Trump, the other half for President Joe Biden – in late July in order to better understand the growing split between the Democratic and Republican Parties.
The results show a country at ideological war with itself: More than half of the surveyed Trump voters — approximately 52% — said the "situation is such that I would favor [Blue/Red] states seceding from the union to form their own separate country." Approximately 41% of Biden-voting respondents answered similarly.
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"America is a funny old place
When Trump was in charge (during which time the vaccine was developed) the democrat picks (both Bdden and Harris) made disparaging remarks about it (essentially saying they wouldn't trust a vaccine if trump told them to take it) whereas they then used the same vaccine and can't understand why people don't want to take it
Everything is so political over there, and they have a (some would argue healthy) skepticism of big pharma companies and their frankly complete lack of morals when it comes down to profit margins
They are very divided. In so many things. Gun ownership, abortion, vaccination…
https://www.businessinsider.com/majority-of-trump-voters-believe-its-time-to-secede-survey-finds-2021-10?r=US&IR=T
A majority of people who voted for former President Donald Trump are in favor of breaking up the country, a new poll from the University of Virginia Center for Politics has found.
UVA surveyed 2,012 voters — half of whom voted for Trump, the other half for President Joe Biden – in late July in order to better understand the growing split between the Democratic and Republican Parties.
The results show a country at ideological war with itself: More than half of the surveyed Trump voters — approximately 52% — said the "situation is such that I would favor [Blue/Red] states seceding from the union to form their own separate country." Approximately 41% of Biden-voting respondents answered similarly.
"
They're incredibly divided. I think their democrat / republican split is even more divisive than our Tory / Labour split
I can't see them having their own 'brexit' though, I just can't fathom the Union breaking apart |
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"I wonder if people opposed to the vaccine ever pay attention to the list of side effects with any medication and how they reconcile the two. "
It's risk analysis
Look at the recent thing with the JCVI and the jabs for 12+15 year olds
They said:
'The decision not to recommend the vaccine to all healthy children was based on concern over an extremely rare side effect of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines which causes heart inflammation, and can lead to palpitations and chest pain.
Data from the US, where millions of young teenagers have been vaccinated, suggests there are 60 cases of the heart condition for every million second doses given to 12 to 17-year-old boys (compared to eight in one million girls)'
Many people (outside of this age group) may also feel the health benefits of having the jab is not outweighed by the risk.
And you're right, they probably throw pills down their neck like tic tacs but at the end of the day, individual freedom and choice is paramount and I would support them in their decision.
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I'm no more concerned with catching Covid from an unvaxxed Vs a vaxxed person (I understand there's approx a 40% chance more likely of catching it off an unvaxxed but this figure seems arbitrary and I've not seen hard figures).
And regardless who I catch it from, it's still Covid, you get the same virus from either person |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I wonder if people opposed to the vaccine ever pay attention to the list of side effects with any medication and how they reconcile the two.
It's risk analysis
Look at the recent thing with the JCVI and the jabs for 12+15 year olds
They said:
'The decision not to recommend the vaccine to all healthy children was based on concern over an extremely rare side effect of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines which causes heart inflammation, and can lead to palpitations and chest pain.
Data from the US, where millions of young teenagers have been vaccinated, suggests there are 60 cases of the heart condition for every million second doses given to 12 to 17-year-old boys (compared to eight in one million girls)'
Many people (outside of this age group) may also feel the health benefits of having the jab is not outweighed by the risk.
And you're right, they probably throw pills down their neck like tic tacs but at the end of the day, individual freedom and choice is paramount and I would support them in their decision.
"
do you have the source for these numbers ? I've not seen this stat before |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Civid-infected persons are far more likely to contract myocarditis than uninfected but vaccinated persons.
If anyone bothered to check this, these rumours would not spread as rapidly.
I suggest not reading from websites that are run by obvious cranks....which includes malignant USA websites offering a pretence of being "medical". |
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"I wonder if people opposed to the vaccine ever pay attention to the list of side effects with any medication and how they reconcile the two.
It's risk analysis
Look at the recent thing with the JCVI and the jabs for 12+15 year olds
They said:
'The decision not to recommend the vaccine to all healthy children was based on concern over an extremely rare side effect of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines which causes heart inflammation, and can lead to palpitations and chest pain.
Data from the US, where millions of young teenagers have been vaccinated, suggests there are 60 cases of the heart condition for every million second doses given to 12 to 17-year-old boys (compared to eight in one million girls)'
Many people (outside of this age group) may also feel the health benefits of having the jab is not outweighed by the risk.
And you're right, they probably throw pills down their neck like tic tacs but at the end of the day, individual freedom and choice is paramount and I would support them in their decision.
do you have the source for these numbers ? I've not seen this stat before"
BBC news article from last month
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58438669 |
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"Civid-infected persons are far more likely to contract myocarditis than uninfected but vaccinated persons.
If anyone bothered to check this, these rumours would not spread as rapidly.
I suggest not reading from websites that are run by obvious cranks....which includes malignant USA websites offering a pretence of being "medical"."
Are we classing the BBC and the JCVI as 'cranks' now
Interesting |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I wonder if people opposed to the vaccine ever pay attention to the list of side effects with any medication and how they reconcile the two.
It's risk analysis
Look at the recent thing with the JCVI and the jabs for 12+15 year olds
They said:
'The decision not to recommend the vaccine to all healthy children was based on concern over an extremely rare side effect of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines which causes heart inflammation, and can lead to palpitations and chest pain.
Data from the US, where millions of young teenagers have been vaccinated, suggests there are 60 cases of the heart condition for every million second doses given to 12 to 17-year-old boys (compared to eight in one million girls)'
Many people (outside of this age group) may also feel the health benefits of having the jab is not outweighed by the risk.
And you're right, they probably throw pills down their neck like tic tacs but at the end of the day, individual freedom and choice is paramount and I would support them in their decision.
do you have the source for these numbers ? I've not seen this stat before
BBC news article from last month
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58438669"
I miss read as being deaths not incidents. Need more coffee ! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Civid-infected persons are far more likely to contract myocarditis than uninfected but vaccinated persons.
If anyone bothered to check this, these rumours would not spread as rapidly.
I suggest not reading from websites that are run by obvious cranks....which includes malignant USA websites offering a pretence of being "medical".
Are we classing the BBC and the JCVI as 'cranks' now
Interesting"
The BBC has been unreliable for some time now. a look at its board of governors will tell you why. The JCVI tends to be ultraconservative and overly worried about a lot of things not in its remit.
Maybe you should take a quick look at the known disease progress of the sars-cov-2 virus, which is completely unlike the influenza virus?
"In the case of SARS-CoV-2, the virus which causes COVID-19, the ACE2 receptor is used for viral entry into the cells. The ACE2 receptor is entirely different to that used by the rhinovirus and seasonal flu. It is composed of amino acids along with a zinc ligand. This receptor is present throughout the body, not just the lungs"
"SARS-CoV-2 targeting the cardiovascular system of the body should be a given. It has been known for a long time that ACE receptors are involved in cardiovascular regulation. ACE inhibitors and ACE II blockers have long been used to treat high blood pressure. This is the same pathway the virus infects"
Teenagers are getting themselves vaccinated, and not bothering to ask their parents: Who mostly get their health advice from facebook groups it seems to me.
Still, if you really want to get into a high dependency unit, and be in a coma while the nurses clean your bodily wastes up and roll you over so your lungs don't clog.... |
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"Civid-infected persons are far more likely to contract myocarditis than uninfected but vaccinated persons.
If anyone bothered to check this, these rumours would not spread as rapidly.
I suggest not reading from websites that are run by obvious cranks....which includes malignant USA websites offering a pretence of being "medical".
Are we classing the BBC and the JCVI as 'cranks' now
Interesting
The BBC has been unreliable for some time now. a look at its board of governors will tell you why. The JCVI tends to be ultraconservative and overly worried about a lot of things not in its remit.
Maybe you should take a quick look at the known disease progress of the sars-cov-2 virus, which is completely unlike the influenza virus?
"In the case of SARS-CoV-2, the virus which causes COVID-19, the ACE2 receptor is used for viral entry into the cells. The ACE2 receptor is entirely different to that used by the rhinovirus and seasonal flu. It is composed of amino acids along with a zinc ligand. This receptor is present throughout the body, not just the lungs"
"SARS-CoV-2 targeting the cardiovascular system of the body should be a given. It has been known for a long time that ACE receptors are involved in cardiovascular regulation. ACE inhibitors and ACE II blockers have long been used to treat high blood pressure. This is the same pathway the virus infects"
Teenagers are getting themselves vaccinated, and not bothering to ask their parents: Who mostly get their health advice from facebook groups it seems to me.
Still, if you really want to get into a high dependency unit, and be in a coma while the nurses clean your bodily wastes up and roll you over so your lungs don't clog...."
It's very interesting that the disease and the vaccination are developing the same side effects (albeit smaller in vaccination) when the only thing they share is a spike protein don't you think?.
Parents should go straight to ONS figures on teenage problems from covid that show a hospitalisation rate of 7 per 100k and death rate of 4 per million instead of tuning into social media nonsense, how do you know the JVCIs ultra conservative? Genuine question, maybe your aware of statistics they don't have?. |
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"You have made my earlier point: that it is good to look at the facts and figures, rather than just condemning.
And some people, of course, may have other data.
People bshould never be condemned in such a casual, lazy fashion as we often see on these threads
And i'd welcome seeing that data.
However my impression here is that the "fear of vaccine" side offer less in the way of data. That may be bias from my side. But it does appear the fear comes from anecdotal evidence.
(I do also accept my back of a gag packet number crunching may have huge holes in it's approach. So welcome people to pick holes too!)
The "fear of the unvaxed" could be addresses by Comprehensive, trustworthy, up to date data by sex by age group by vax / unvax would be very helpful in alleviating peoples concerns I'm sure. Wonder where it can be found though...and that might also help address those with fear of the vax. Not sure why such data is not being communicated far and wide though.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting#analysis-of-data
This may help.
Imo, even of someone published a table, it won't change minds. There will be another reason. Or they will view the data with suspicion. "
But yellow card is self reporting. Anyone can go on there and report anything. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"You have made my earlier point: that it is good to look at the facts and figures, rather than just condemning.
And some people, of course, may have other data.
People bshould never be condemned in such a casual, lazy fashion as we often see on these threads
And i'd welcome seeing that data.
However my impression here is that the "fear of vaccine" side offer less in the way of data. That may be bias from my side. But it does appear the fear comes from anecdotal evidence.
(I do also accept my back of a gag packet number crunching may have huge holes in it's approach. So welcome people to pick holes too!)
The "fear of the unvaxed" could be addresses by Comprehensive, trustworthy, up to date data by sex by age group by vax / unvax would be very helpful in alleviating peoples concerns I'm sure. Wonder where it can be found though...and that might also help address those with fear of the vax. Not sure why such data is not being communicated far and wide though.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting#analysis-of-data
This may help.
Imo, even of someone published a table, it won't change minds. There will be another reason. Or they will view the data with suspicion.
But yellow card is self reporting. Anyone can go on there and report anything. "
agreed. But when focussing on specific illnesses it's probably more reliable (as likely needs medical expertise).
No data is perfect. And while it's good to understand its limitations, we can't let perfect be the enemy of the good. But we aren't generally taught how to deal with uncertainty, let alone uncertain data ... So any doubt means for it gets written off. Rather than used with care. |
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"You have made my earlier point: that it is good to look at the facts and figures, rather than just condemning.
And some people, of course, may have other data.
People bshould never be condemned in such a casual, lazy fashion as we often see on these threads
And i'd welcome seeing that data.
However my impression here is that the "fear of vaccine" side offer less in the way of data. That may be bias from my side. But it does appear the fear comes from anecdotal evidence.
(I do also accept my back of a gag packet number crunching may have huge holes in it's approach. So welcome people to pick holes too!)
The "fear of the unvaxed" could be addresses by Comprehensive, trustworthy, up to date data by sex by age group by vax / unvax would be very helpful in alleviating peoples concerns I'm sure. Wonder where it can be found though...and that might also help address those with fear of the vax. Not sure why such data is not being communicated far and wide though.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting#analysis-of-data
This may help.
Imo, even of someone published a table, it won't change minds. There will be another reason. Or they will view the data with suspicion.
But yellow card is self reporting. Anyone can go on there and report anything. agreed. But when focussing on specific illnesses it's probably more reliable (as likely needs medical expertise).
No data is perfect. And while it's good to understand its limitations, we can't let perfect be the enemy of the good. But we aren't generally taught how to deal with uncertainty, let alone uncertain data ... So any doubt means for it gets written off. Rather than used with care. "
Yep agreed. Which is why people need to be rather cautious when making absolute statements based on a data set that is certainly not complete, is open to abuse and misuse and is unverified. It could of course be 90 percent accurate for certain events.... Or 80 or 70... Who knows? |
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"You have made my earlier point: that it is good to look at the facts and figures, rather than just condemning.
And some people, of course, may have other data.
People bshould never be condemned in such a casual, lazy fashion as we often see on these threads
And i'd welcome seeing that data.
However my impression here is that the "fear of vaccine" side offer less in the way of data. That may be bias from my side. But it does appear the fear comes from anecdotal evidence.
(I do also accept my back of a gag packet number crunching may have huge holes in it's approach. So welcome people to pick holes too!)
The "fear of the unvaxed" could be addresses by Comprehensive, trustworthy, up to date data by sex by age group by vax / unvax would be very helpful in alleviating peoples concerns I'm sure. Wonder where it can be found though...and that might also help address those with fear of the vax. Not sure why such data is not being communicated far and wide though.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting#analysis-of-data
This may help.
Imo, even of someone published a table, it won't change minds. There will be another reason. Or they will view the data with suspicion.
But yellow card is self reporting. Anyone can go on there and report anything. agreed. But when focussing on specific illnesses it's probably more reliable (as likely needs medical expertise).
No data is perfect. And while it's good to understand its limitations, we can't let perfect be the enemy of the good. But we aren't generally taught how to deal with uncertainty, let alone uncertain data ... So any doubt means for it gets written off. Rather than used with care.
Yep agreed. Which is why people need to be rather cautious when making absolute statements based on a data set that is certainly not complete, is open to abuse and misuse and is unverified. It could of course be 90 percent accurate for certain events.... Or 80 or 70... Who knows? "
Although what's said is correct there's other logic going on, when you go to see a doctor they ask you what's wrong!.
I've never once been and the doctor said don't tell me anything, you could give me bias.
Myocarditis and pericarditis was specifically looked into due to various systems like yellow card reporting of heart palpitations, they are a tool put in place not to alarm or pacify the public but to understand better what's going on in a vast medical experiment because even with very good medical system procedures unexpected consequences sometimes occur. |
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"You have made my earlier point: that it is good to look at the facts and figures, rather than just condemning.
And some people, of course, may have other data.
People bshould never be condemned in such a casual, lazy fashion as we often see on these threads
And i'd welcome seeing that data.
However my impression here is that the "fear of vaccine" side offer less in the way of data. That may be bias from my side. But it does appear the fear comes from anecdotal evidence.
(I do also accept my back of a gag packet number crunching may have huge holes in it's approach. So welcome people to pick holes too!)
The "fear of the unvaxed" could be addresses by Comprehensive, trustworthy, up to date data by sex by age group by vax / unvax would be very helpful in alleviating peoples concerns I'm sure. Wonder where it can be found though...and that might also help address those with fear of the vax. Not sure why such data is not being communicated far and wide though.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting#analysis-of-data
This may help.
Imo, even of someone published a table, it won't change minds. There will be another reason. Or they will view the data with suspicion.
But yellow card is self reporting. Anyone can go on there and report anything. agreed. But when focussing on specific illnesses it's probably more reliable (as likely needs medical expertise).
No data is perfect. And while it's good to understand its limitations, we can't let perfect be the enemy of the good. But we aren't generally taught how to deal with uncertainty, let alone uncertain data ... So any doubt means for it gets written off. Rather than used with care.
Yep agreed. Which is why people need to be rather cautious when making absolute statements based on a data set that is certainly not complete, is open to abuse and misuse and is unverified. It could of course be 90 percent accurate for certain events.... Or 80 or 70... Who knows?
Although what's said is correct there's other logic going on, when you go to see a doctor they ask you what's wrong!.
I've never once been and the doctor said don't tell me anything, you could give me bias.
Myocarditis and pericarditis was specifically looked into due to various systems like yellow card reporting of heart palpitations, they are a tool put in place not to alarm or pacify the public but to understand better what's going on in a vast medical experiment because even with very good medical system procedures unexpected consequences sometimes occur."
Yes it has the potential to be a powerful and helpful tool. But an accurate and trustworthy reporting source for some population wide events isn't always one of them for all purposes, when we are talking such low events / percentages.... 4 in 100000 as an example.. And if policy is being driven by this information.. And If some of the 4 have been falsified or misreported or not captured at all..? ...its a source of some useful information and if its the best we can do.. Fine.. But there are caveats with a lot of the numbers being quoted using it as the source. |
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"So now the daily mail is now a trusted and reliable source of news?
Usually everyone on here bashes the 'daily fail' for being toilet paper etc etc.
This happens every time someone mentions a News source that someone doesn't like and adds nothing at all to the OP, do your research, the news is out there in multiple places
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/joe-mccarron-man-released-from-donegal-hospital-by-anti-vaccine-campaigners-to-be-buried-today-40888273.html"
Good comment Rugby.
In the "Soshal Meeeja" world there are many common put downs used by those who do not wish to address the topic in hand. They include, but are not limited to, "You should not believe anything from xxxxx", "Check your facts before commenting", wild accusations of unsupported and unverifiable opinions held by the earlier poster to discredit them like in the eyes of their peers like "I suppose you eat babies too!" and throw away comments like "mansplaining" and "sheeple".
It never used to be that way. A wise man once said "Personal abuse is a sure sign of a weak case" Now, if you cannot win the argument, go for the person making it. |
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