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Murder charges for a leader
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Brazils Senate has published a draft report into its investigation of Bolsonaro and Covid. It states that he should face murder charges, due to mismanagement, incompetence and their 'stratospheric' death toll, over 600,000 lives lost.
It's just their draft report that's been published, so may change before the final version is published.
Will other leaders become more nervous, if this continues? |
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"It's an interesting approach. I suppose it'll depend on the constitutional setup of any given country."
I've not read the report, just seen brief summary info. I'm uncertain whether their constitution currently supports murder charges against him but guessing that it may do, hence their conclusions.
I think his term ends next year, so he could try to implement legislation that could make him immune, so that he supports himself to stand again.
He called Covid a 'little flu'. Resisted calls for restrictions, decried masks, delayed vaccines and more, making their suffering so extremely bad. |
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"It's an interesting approach. I suppose it'll depend on the constitutional setup of any given country.
I've not read the report, just seen brief summary info. I'm uncertain whether their constitution currently supports murder charges against him but guessing that it may do, hence their conclusions.
I think his term ends next year, so he could try to implement legislation that could make him immune, so that he supports himself to stand again.
He called Covid a 'little flu'. Resisted calls for restrictions, decried masks, delayed vaccines and more, making their suffering so extremely bad. "
I've not read it either - my Portuguese certainly doesn't run to that 
It's definitely appalling and I think that such callousness deserves consequences.
In the UK, I fear that the realities of our constitution shield our politicians from any semblance of accountability. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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If that's the road some want to go down then bolonaro and other leaders should be charged only after the ccp, Fauci, and all involved with covid development in the wuhan institute of virology. |
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"If that's the road some want to go down then bolonaro and other leaders should be charged only after the ccp, Fauci, and all involved with covid development in the wuhan institute of virology. "
That'd be fascinating if there were any evidence for it.
Meanwhile the documentary evidence for the failed Brazilian approach is overwhelming. |
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"It's an interesting approach. I suppose it'll depend on the constitutional setup of any given country.
I've not read the report, just seen brief summary info. I'm uncertain whether their constitution currently supports murder charges against him but guessing that it may do, hence their conclusions.
I think his term ends next year, so he could try to implement legislation that could make him immune, so that he supports himself to stand again.
He called Covid a 'little flu'. Resisted calls for restrictions, decried masks, delayed vaccines and more, making their suffering so extremely bad.
I've not read it either - my Portuguese certainly doesn't run to that
It's definitely appalling and I think that such callousness deserves consequences.
In the UK, I fear that the realities of our constitution shield our politicians from any semblance of accountability."
We don’t have a constitution and politicians are answerable to the law just the same as every one else. |
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"It's an interesting approach. I suppose it'll depend on the constitutional setup of any given country.
I've not read the report, just seen brief summary info. I'm uncertain whether their constitution currently supports murder charges against him but guessing that it may do, hence their conclusions.
I think his term ends next year, so he could try to implement legislation that could make him immune, so that he supports himself to stand again.
He called Covid a 'little flu'. Resisted calls for restrictions, decried masks, delayed vaccines and more, making their suffering so extremely bad.
I've not read it either - my Portuguese certainly doesn't run to that
It's definitely appalling and I think that such callousness deserves consequences.
In the UK, I fear that the realities of our constitution shield our politicians from any semblance of accountability.
We don’t have a constitution and politicians are answerable to the law just the same as every one else."
We have an uncodified constitution, the foundation of which is parliamentary supremacy. Compromise with the monarchy at the Glorious Revolution.
Parliament supremacy means, in effect, that the government/the executive can do what it likes. (Formally it's "queen in parliament", that is, laws which pass through both the Commons and the Lords. But given the status of the Lords and how questionable it is democratically, and the fact that government is formed based on a majority in the Commons, I'm also not wrong) |
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"If that's the road some want to go down then bolonaro and other leaders should be charged only after the ccp, Fauci, and all involved with covid development in the wuhan institute of virology. "
I think there are wild allegations that have pulled disparate bits of information into a shaky proposal purported to be more than it is, including using Fauci, who has been hated by the extremists, typically against the lifesaving restrictions that had to be imposed. And then there's Bolsonaro, who's been proud of his lack of empathy for the suffering of millions under his care. He's been proud too, of pushing for herd immunity  , which meant that his citizens were sacrificial lambs for the slaughter. To January this year, he resisted recommendations to order vaccines . Such wilful resistance against the 2 tools that we have had to minimise the impact - restrictions and vaccinea - has proven his lack of any care for those people who have suffered. |
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"It's an interesting approach. I suppose it'll depend on the constitutional setup of any given country.
I've not read the report, just seen brief summary info. I'm uncertain whether their constitution currently supports murder charges against him but guessing that it may do, hence their conclusions.
I think his term ends next year, so he could try to implement legislation that could make him immune, so that he supports himself to stand again.
He called Covid a 'little flu'. Resisted calls for restrictions, decried masks, delayed vaccines and more, making their suffering so extremely bad.
I've not read it either - my Portuguese certainly doesn't run to that
It's definitely appalling and I think that such callousness deserves consequences.
In the UK, I fear that the realities of our constitution shield our politicians from any semblance of accountability.
We don’t have a constitution and politicians are answerable to the law just the same as every one else.
We have an uncodified constitution, the foundation of which is parliamentary supremacy. Compromise with the monarchy at the Glorious Revolution.
Parliament supremacy means, in effect, that the government/the executive can do what it likes. (Formally it's "queen in parliament", that is, laws which pass through both the Commons and the Lords. But given the status of the Lords and how questionable it is democratically, and the fact that government is formed based on a majority in the Commons, I'm also not wrong)"
The executive can’t do what ever it wants because those pesky back benchers have a habit of revolting at the most in opportune times.
And also uncodified = not written down = doesn’t actually exist = can be changed at any point = is not an actual constitution. |
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"It's an interesting approach. I suppose it'll depend on the constitutional setup of any given country.
I've not read the report, just seen brief summary info. I'm uncertain whether their constitution currently supports murder charges against him but guessing that it may do, hence their conclusions.
I think his term ends next year, so he could try to implement legislation that could make him immune, so that he supports himself to stand again.
He called Covid a 'little flu'. Resisted calls for restrictions, decried masks, delayed vaccines and more, making their suffering so extremely bad.
I've not read it either - my Portuguese certainly doesn't run to that
It's definitely appalling and I think that such callousness deserves consequences.
In the UK, I fear that the realities of our constitution shield our politicians from any semblance of accountability.
We don’t have a constitution and politicians are answerable to the law just the same as every one else.
We have an uncodified constitution, the foundation of which is parliamentary supremacy. Compromise with the monarchy at the Glorious Revolution.
Parliament supremacy means, in effect, that the government/the executive can do what it likes. (Formally it's "queen in parliament", that is, laws which pass through both the Commons and the Lords. But given the status of the Lords and how questionable it is democratically, and the fact that government is formed based on a majority in the Commons, I'm also not wrong)
The executive can’t do what ever it wants because those pesky back benchers have a habit of revolting at the most in opportune times.
And also uncodified = not written down = doesn’t actually exist = can be changed at any point = is not an actual constitution."
I suspect that most UK constitutional (and public/admin) law experts would disagree with you, but ok  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"And also uncodified = not written down = doesn’t actually exist = can be changed at any point = is not an actual constitution."
“ The Constitution of the United Kingdom or British constitution comprises the written and unwritten arrangements that establish the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as a political body. Unlike in most countries, no attempt has been made to codify such arrangements into a single document.”
#justsaying x |
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"And also uncodified = not written down = doesn’t actually exist = can be changed at any point = is not an actual constitution.
“ The Constitution of the United Kingdom or British constitution comprises the written and unwritten arrangements that establish the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as a political body. Unlike in most countries, no attempt has been made to codify such arrangements into a single document.”
#justsaying x"
That quote is taken from a paragraph from a consultation document written in 2015 by the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee which was set up to look into what should be put into our constitution because we don’t have one.
#justsaying 
|
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"And also uncodified = not written down = doesn’t actually exist = can be changed at any point = is not an actual constitution.
“ The Constitution of the United Kingdom or British constitution comprises the written and unwritten arrangements that establish the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as a political body. Unlike in most countries, no attempt has been made to codify such arrangements into a single document.”
#justsaying x
That quote is taken from a paragraph from a consultation document written in 2015 by the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee which was set up to look into what should be put into our constitution because we don’t have one.
#justsaying
"
From the website Public Law For Everyone (Does the UK have a constitution? 28 March 2021)
"First, the fact that the UK lacks a ‘written constitution’ not infrequently leads to the misapprehension that the UK lack any constitution. In truth, the UK does have a constitution, albeit that it is quite different from those of many other countries. That leads on to the second point: namely, the nature of the differences between the constitution of UK and the constitutions that are often found elsewhere."
I assume you'd be inclined to agree that Mark Elliot, Professor of Public Law and Chair of the Faculty of Law at Cambridge, might know a thing or two on the subject  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"And also uncodified = not written down = doesn’t actually exist = can be changed at any point = is not an actual constitution.
“ The Constitution of the United Kingdom or British constitution comprises the written and unwritten arrangements that establish the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as a political body. Unlike in most countries, no attempt has been made to codify such arrangements into a single document.”
#justsaying x
That quote is taken from a paragraph from a consultation document written in 2015 by the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee which was set up to look into what should be put into our constitution because we don’t have one.
#justsaying
"
Read the first page of that document it clearly says we do have one and what it’s component parts are…
|
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"And also uncodified = not written down = doesn’t actually exist = can be changed at any point = is not an actual constitution.
“ The Constitution of the United Kingdom or British constitution comprises the written and unwritten arrangements that establish the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as a political body. Unlike in most countries, no attempt has been made to codify such arrangements into a single document.”
#justsaying x
That quote is taken from a paragraph from a consultation document written in 2015 by the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee which was set up to look into what should be put into our constitution because we don’t have one.
#justsaying
Read the first page of that document it clearly says we do have one and what it’s component parts are…
"
The Political and Constitutional Reform Committee are definitely the kind of people who know a thing or two about constitutional law, too. Oddly enough. |
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"And also uncodified = not written down = doesn’t actually exist = can be changed at any point = is not an actual constitution.
“ The Constitution of the United Kingdom or British constitution comprises the written and unwritten arrangements that establish the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as a political body. Unlike in most countries, no attempt has been made to codify such arrangements into a single document.”
#justsaying x
That quote is taken from a paragraph from a consultation document written in 2015 by the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee which was set up to look into what should be put into our constitution because we don’t have one.
#justsaying
Read the first page of that document it clearly says we do have one and what it’s component parts are…
"
I assume you have read the footnote at the bottom of that page that reads:
“ Below is the winning entry in the Committee’s competition for the public to find a suggested preamble for a future UK Constitution. It has been drafted by Richard Elliott. If you are inspired to do better, please send your own suggestion to pcrc@parliament.uk”
That isn’t our constitution. It is some blokes attempt at writing what he thinks might be a good one and the parliamentary committee gave him a gold star for good work. |
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"... but, anyway, my point was that some country's arrangements are more or less amenable to holding ruling politicians to account."
And that I agree with you and didn’t intend to get drawn down the constitution rabbit hole |
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At 1 extreme we have countries like China and Russia, where accountability is thin on the ground. The UK, Brazil and others are a little away from that. Those with populist leaders haven't fared too well - Bolsonaro, Trump, Johnson - and they each have demonstrated contempt for the law and the legal process. How much citizens are willing to tolerate populist and other leaders shifting them closer towards the positions of China and Russia is up for debate. We've had protests against tyranny, or something, here, such as the storming of the old BBC headquarters, when they instead found Loose Women underway, for a rival operator. Perhaps those activists and others will be the saviours of the UK, from drifting towards the extreme |
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"Governments would be better with full accountability of leaders and bans on individuals cancelling their own liability "
In my home state of New South Wales, they have an Independent Commission Against Corruption.
It's why the premier recently resigned - she saw the writing on the wall. |
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