FabSwingers.com > Forums > Virus > Social Duty
Social Duty
Jump to: Newest in thread
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Nope. Being fat is not catching " Being vaccinated doesn't stop you catching or spreading. It reduces the harm the virus is likely to do to you, exactly like bodyweight. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Nope. Being fat is not catching Being vaccinated doesn't stop you catching or spreading. It reduces the harm the virus is likely to do to you, exactly like bodyweight." it does reduce the chance of you catching or spreading it though. I've had covid and survived without the need of a ventilator despite having a bmi of over 48 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Nope. Being fat is not catching Being vaccinated doesn't stop you catching or spreading. It reduces the harm the virus is likely to do to you, exactly like bodyweight. it does reduce the chance of you catching or spreading it though. I've had covid and survived without the need of a ventilator despite having a bmi of over 48" "My nan smoked her whole life and lived to 110" 
So you dispute that BMI is the #1 risk factor within the control of each person? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Vaccine reduces likelihood of catching and spreading it. " No it doesn't. Possibly against the original variant but not against delta for any meaningful length of time. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Nope. Being fat is not catching Being vaccinated doesn't stop you catching or spreading. It reduces the harm the virus is likely to do to you, exactly like bodyweight. it does reduce the chance of you catching or spreading it though. I've had covid and survived without the need of a ventilator despite having a bmi of over 48 "My nan smoked her whole life and lived to 110"
So you dispute that BMI is the #1 risk factor within the control of each person? "no I dispute its anyones social duty to lose weight | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Vaccine reduces likelihood of catching and spreading it. No it doesn't. Possibly against the original variant but not against delta for any meaningful length of time." Oh? Have you looked at the studies in any detail then? Sampled virus particles to differentiate the difference between that spread by vaccinated and unvaccinated? Or have you read something online? How are you so sure when the science is moving so fast? I do hope that you're practicing what you're preaching and avoiding all those disgusting germ ridden places. Given you're so keen on social duty. Do make sure you play your part. Help your country  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Nope. Being fat is not catching Being vaccinated doesn't stop you catching or spreading. It reduces the harm the virus is likely to do to you, exactly like bodyweight." I disagree, for several reasons. Firstly, vaccination has been shown to reduce severe illness levels and hospitalisations. Thus, vaccinated people will be reducing the exposure levels of others, whilst they are infected. Depending on the variant, the vaccines have the potential to reduce the level of infectivity. Less severely ill people can stay home, isolated from others 
Do you have a correlation between weight and Covid, or causation? Do you have evidence that people losing weight will increase some specific odds? You understand that being overweight is a very complex issue, I assume?
As for losing weight, I'd like to see your evidence that it will change the impact on the rest of the population, similarly to vaccines. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. " How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people?" I think some are just posting thoughtless clickbait, without any broader thinking processes going on  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? I think some are just posting thoughtless clickbait, without any broader thinking processes going on "Responsibility is for thee, not for me. I'm happy I've played my part. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people?" Most unvaccinated people are not going to die from getting infected. The argument is that if they require treatment, they are straining the NHS from someone who needs it's more. Likewise, obesity is linked so many health problems that obese people strain the NHS. There's a strong push for people to get vaccinated but no push telling overweight people to lose it. Nor do very many of them seem inclined to, despite constantly protesting about how important their health is. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Nope. Being fat is not catching Being vaccinated doesn't stop you catching or spreading. It reduces the harm the virus is likely to do to you, exactly like bodyweight. it does reduce the chance of you catching or spreading it though. I've had covid and survived without the need of a ventilator despite having a bmi of over 48 "My nan smoked her whole life and lived to 110"
So you dispute that BMI is the #1 risk factor within the control of each person? no I dispute its anyones social duty to lose weight "Is it a social duty to get vaccinated? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? Most unvaccinated people are not going to die from getting infected. The argument is that if they require treatment, they are straining the NHS from someone who needs it's more. Likewise, obesity is linked so many health problems that obese people strain the NHS. There's a strong push for people to get vaccinated but no push telling overweight people to lose it. Nor do very many of them seem inclined to, despite constantly protesting about how important their health is. " Amen to that!! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Nope. Being fat is not catching Being vaccinated doesn't stop you catching or spreading. It reduces the harm the virus is likely to do to you, exactly like bodyweight. I disagree, for several reasons. Firstly, vaccination has been shown to reduce severe illness levels and hospitalisations. " As has losing weight if you are an unhealthy weight " Thus, vaccinated people will be reducing the exposure levels of others, whilst they are infected. Depending on the variant, the vaccines have the potential to reduce the level of infectivity. Less severely ill people can stay home, isolated from others
Do you have a correlation between weight and Covid, or causation?
"Yes it is causation, you cannot breath properly if you are overweight and then covid makes it even harder to breath. " Do you have evidence that people losing weight will increase some specific odds? You understand that being overweight is a very complex issue, I assume? As for losing weight, I'd like to see your evidence that it will change the impact on the rest of the population, similarly to vaccines. " If you haven't seen the evidence, it's because you didn't want to. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? Most unvaccinated people are not going to die from getting infected. The argument is that if they require treatment, they are straining the NHS from someone who needs it's more. Likewise, obesity is linked so many health problems that obese people strain the NHS. There's a strong push for people to get vaccinated but no push telling overweight people to lose it. Nor do very many of them seem inclined to, despite constantly protesting about how important their health is. " Ok. Who's a bigger risk to society? Fatty McFatFace who got her vaccines, works from home, and masks or meets outdoors. Or the people who are meeting in pubs, going to swinging clubs, going to gyms (which even before Covid had lots of MRSA, yum yum), etc? Given the unvaccinated are alleged to be the picture of health, if they just get a sniffle from Covid they could seed hundreds of infections. Go on, tell me that you're being rational and actually understand how this disease spreads. Or that you're expecting others to fix the problem. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Nope. Being fat is not catching Being vaccinated doesn't stop you catching or spreading. It reduces the harm the virus is likely to do to you, exactly like bodyweight. it does reduce the chance of you catching or spreading it though. I've had covid and survived without the need of a ventilator despite having a bmi of over 48 "My nan smoked her whole life and lived to 110"
So you dispute that BMI is the #1 risk factor within the control of each person? no I dispute its anyones social duty to lose weight
Is it a social duty to get vaccinated? "nope.. it's a responsible thing to take vaccinations when offered but not a social duty | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? Most unvaccinated people are not going to die from getting infected. The argument is that if they require treatment, they are straining the NHS from someone who needs it's more. Likewise, obesity is linked so many health problems that obese people strain the NHS. There's a strong push for people to get vaccinated but no push telling overweight people to lose it. Nor do very many of them seem inclined to, despite constantly protesting about how important their health is. Ok. Who's a bigger risk to society? Fatty McFatFace who got her vaccines, works from home, and masks or meets outdoors. Or the people who are meeting in pubs, going to swinging clubs, going to gyms (which even before Covid had lots of MRSA, yum yum), etc? Given the unvaccinated are alleged to be the picture of health, if they just get a sniffle from Covid they could seed hundreds of infections. Go on, tell me that you're being rational and actually understand how this disease spreads. Or that you're expecting others to fix the problem." If you're worried about catching it, why are you going to public places like pubs and clubs. The vaccine does not prevent transmission, have you really not realised that yet!? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No sorry, I'm not living my life for others. When I lose weight, it's for me, not for the NHS or anyone else. " I'd be much more concerned about my weight if it could spread disease to others. Because I absolutely do believe in social duty to other people. And my money is where my mouth is | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Nope. Being fat is not catching Being vaccinated doesn't stop you catching or spreading. It reduces the harm the virus is likely to do to you, exactly like bodyweight. it does reduce the chance of you catching or spreading it though. I've had covid and survived without the need of a ventilator despite having a bmi of over 48 "My nan smoked her whole life and lived to 110"
So you dispute that BMI is the #1 risk factor within the control of each person? no I dispute its anyones social duty to lose weight
Is it a social duty to get vaccinated? nope.. it's a responsible thing to take vaccinations when offered but not a social duty "Thank you for being one of the few people to actually answer the original question instead of throwing out gish gallop. I find your position logically consistent.  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No sorry, I'm not living my life for others. When I lose weight, it's for me, not for the NHS or anyone else. I'd be much more concerned about my weight if it could spread disease to others. Because I absolutely do believe in social duty to other people. And my money is where my mouth is "The virtue signalling on the virus forum sometimes makes me want to be sick in my mouth  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? Most unvaccinated people are not going to die from getting infected. The argument is that if they require treatment, they are straining the NHS from someone who needs it's more. Likewise, obesity is linked so many health problems that obese people strain the NHS. There's a strong push for people to get vaccinated but no push telling overweight people to lose it. Nor do very many of them seem inclined to, despite constantly protesting about how important their health is. Ok. Who's a bigger risk to society? Fatty McFatFace who got her vaccines, works from home, and masks or meets outdoors. Or the people who are meeting in pubs, going to swinging clubs, going to gyms (which even before Covid had lots of MRSA, yum yum), etc? Given the unvaccinated are alleged to be the picture of health, if they just get a sniffle from Covid they could seed hundreds of infections. Go on, tell me that you're being rational and actually understand how this disease spreads. Or that you're expecting others to fix the problem. If you're worried about catching it, why are you going to public places like pubs and clubs. The vaccine does not prevent transmission, have you really not realised that yet!?" I'm not going to those places. Are you? Goodness, OP, I thought you cared about social duty. I reduce my risk of spreading disease to other people by keeping my fat arse at home. I don't want to make other people sick. You don't want to make other people sick, do you? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No sorry, I'm not living my life for others. When I lose weight, it's for me, not for the NHS or anyone else. I'd be much more concerned about my weight if it could spread disease to others. Because I absolutely do believe in social duty to other people. And my money is where my mouth is
The virtue signalling on the virus forum sometimes makes me want to be sick in my mouth "I do believe the OP started it  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? Most unvaccinated people are not going to die from getting infected. The argument is that if they require treatment, they are straining the NHS from someone who needs it's more. Likewise, obesity is linked so many health problems that obese people strain the NHS. There's a strong push for people to get vaccinated but no push telling overweight people to lose it. Nor do very many of them seem inclined to, despite constantly protesting about how important their health is. Ok. Who's a bigger risk to society? Fatty McFatFace who got her vaccines, works from home, and masks or meets outdoors. Or the people who are meeting in pubs, going to swinging clubs, going to gyms (which even before Covid had lots of MRSA, yum yum), etc? Given the unvaccinated are alleged to be the picture of health, if they just get a sniffle from Covid they could seed hundreds of infections. Go on, tell me that you're being rational and actually understand how this disease spreads. Or that you're expecting others to fix the problem. If you're worried about catching it, why are you going to public places like pubs and clubs. The vaccine does not prevent transmission, have you really not realised that yet!? I'm not going to those places. Are you? Goodness, OP, I thought you cared about social duty. I reduce my risk of spreading disease to other people by keeping my fat arse at home. I don't want to make other people sick. You don't want to make other people sick, do you? "Highlight the part where I said I believed you had a social duty to lose weight. Or are you just doing what you always do on here and throwing strawman arguments at people. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? Most unvaccinated people are not going to die from getting infected. The argument is that if they require treatment, they are straining the NHS from someone who needs it's more. Likewise, obesity is linked so many health problems that obese people strain the NHS. There's a strong push for people to get vaccinated but no push telling overweight people to lose it. Nor do very many of them seem inclined to, despite constantly protesting about how important their health is. Ok. Who's a bigger risk to society? Fatty McFatFace who got her vaccines, works from home, and masks or meets outdoors. Or the people who are meeting in pubs, going to swinging clubs, going to gyms (which even before Covid had lots of MRSA, yum yum), etc? Given the unvaccinated are alleged to be the picture of health, if they just get a sniffle from Covid they could seed hundreds of infections. Go on, tell me that you're being rational and actually understand how this disease spreads. Or that you're expecting others to fix the problem. If you're worried about catching it, why are you going to public places like pubs and clubs. The vaccine does not prevent transmission, have you really not realised that yet!? I'm not going to those places. Are you? Goodness, OP, I thought you cared about social duty. I reduce my risk of spreading disease to other people by keeping my fat arse at home. I don't want to make other people sick. You don't want to make other people sick, do you?
Highlight the part where I said I believed you had a social duty to lose weight. Or are you just doing what you always do on here and throwing strawman arguments at people. "Why would you be proposing the question if you didn't advocate it? And sure, I'll go with a social duty to lose weight. After we permanently ban any establishment where people outside households share breath for non essential purposes. Given it's airborne not fat borne It's not a sacrifice I'm willing to make, but given your noble seeking of the greater good, maybe you can convince me otherwise. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? Most unvaccinated people are not going to die from getting infected. The argument is that if they require treatment, they are straining the NHS from someone who needs it's more. Likewise, obesity is linked so many health problems that obese people strain the NHS. There's a strong push for people to get vaccinated but no push telling overweight people to lose it. Nor do very many of them seem inclined to, despite constantly protesting about how important their health is. Ok. Who's a bigger risk to society? Fatty McFatFace who got her vaccines, works from home, and masks or meets outdoors. Or the people who are meeting in pubs, going to swinging clubs, going to gyms (which even before Covid had lots of MRSA, yum yum), etc? Given the unvaccinated are alleged to be the picture of health, if they just get a sniffle from Covid they could seed hundreds of infections. Go on, tell me that you're being rational and actually understand how this disease spreads. Or that you're expecting others to fix the problem. If you're worried about catching it, why are you going to public places like pubs and clubs. The vaccine does not prevent transmission, have you really not realised that yet!? I'm not going to those places. Are you? Goodness, OP, I thought you cared about social duty. I reduce my risk of spreading disease to other people by keeping my fat arse at home. I don't want to make other people sick. You don't want to make other people sick, do you?
Highlight the part where I said I believed you had a social duty to lose weight. Or are you just doing what you always do on here and throwing strawman arguments at people.
Why would you be proposing the question if you didn't advocate it?
And sure, I'll go with a social duty to lose weight. After we permanently ban any establishment where people outside households share breath for non essential purposes. Given it's airborne not fat borne
It's not a sacrifice I'm willing to make, but given your noble seeking of the greater good, maybe you can convince me otherwise."Again, just highlight the part or withdraw the accusation rather than deciding what other people think for them | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? Most unvaccinated people are not going to die from getting infected. The argument is that if they require treatment, they are straining the NHS from someone who needs it's more. Likewise, obesity is linked so many health problems that obese people strain the NHS. There's a strong push for people to get vaccinated but no push telling overweight people to lose it. Nor do very many of them seem inclined to, despite constantly protesting about how important their health is. Ok. Who's a bigger risk to society? Fatty McFatFace who got her vaccines, works from home, and masks or meets outdoors. Or the people who are meeting in pubs, going to swinging clubs, going to gyms (which even before Covid had lots of MRSA, yum yum), etc? Given the unvaccinated are alleged to be the picture of health, if they just get a sniffle from Covid they could seed hundreds of infections. Go on, tell me that you're being rational and actually understand how this disease spreads. Or that you're expecting others to fix the problem. If you're worried about catching it, why are you going to public places like pubs and clubs. The vaccine does not prevent transmission, have you really not realised that yet!? I'm not going to those places. Are you? Goodness, OP, I thought you cared about social duty. I reduce my risk of spreading disease to other people by keeping my fat arse at home. I don't want to make other people sick. You don't want to make other people sick, do you?
Highlight the part where I said I believed you had a social duty to lose weight. Or are you just doing what you always do on here and throwing strawman arguments at people.
Why would you be proposing the question if you didn't advocate it?
And sure, I'll go with a social duty to lose weight. After we permanently ban any establishment where people outside households share breath for non essential purposes. Given it's airborne not fat borne
It's not a sacrifice I'm willing to make, but given your noble seeking of the greater good, maybe you can convince me otherwise.
Again, just highlight the part or withdraw the accusation rather than deciding what other people think for them"Ok. Withdrawn. Can you answer the question above? Who's the biggest risk to society? A fat vaccinated person who's staying at home, or a healthy person "getting their life back"? What duty do you feel you owe to society, OP? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? Most unvaccinated people are not going to die from getting infected. The argument is that if they require treatment, they are straining the NHS from someone who needs it's more. Likewise, obesity is linked so many health problems that obese people strain the NHS. There's a strong push for people to get vaccinated but no push telling overweight people to lose it. Nor do very many of them seem inclined to, despite constantly protesting about how important their health is. Ok. Who's a bigger risk to society? Fatty McFatFace who got her vaccines, works from home, and masks or meets outdoors. Or the people who are meeting in pubs, going to swinging clubs, going to gyms (which even before Covid had lots of MRSA, yum yum), etc? Given the unvaccinated are alleged to be the picture of health, if they just get a sniffle from Covid they could seed hundreds of infections. Go on, tell me that you're being rational and actually understand how this disease spreads. Or that you're expecting others to fix the problem. If you're worried about catching it, why are you going to public places like pubs and clubs. The vaccine does not prevent transmission, have you really not realised that yet!? I'm not going to those places. Are you? Goodness, OP, I thought you cared about social duty. I reduce my risk of spreading disease to other people by keeping my fat arse at home. I don't want to make other people sick. You don't want to make other people sick, do you?
Highlight the part where I said I believed you had a social duty to lose weight. Or are you just doing what you always do on here and throwing strawman arguments at people.
Why would you be proposing the question if you didn't advocate it?
And sure, I'll go with a social duty to lose weight. After we permanently ban any establishment where people outside households share breath for non essential purposes. Given it's airborne not fat borne
It's not a sacrifice I'm willing to make, but given your noble seeking of the greater good, maybe you can convince me otherwise.
Again, just highlight the part or withdraw the accusation rather than deciding what other people think for them
Ok. Withdrawn.
Can you answer the question above? Who's the biggest risk to society? A fat vaccinated person who's staying at home, or a healthy person "getting their life back"?
What duty do you feel you owe to society, OP?"Major risk factors are age, weight, underlying health conditions. The question cannot be distilled in the way you present it. People should be managing their own risk profile accordingly in terms of the places they visit. The duty I believe people have is to isolate if they have any reason to believe they are infectious. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? Most unvaccinated people are not going to die from getting infected. The argument is that if they require treatment, they are straining the NHS from someone who needs it's more. Likewise, obesity is linked so many health problems that obese people strain the NHS. There's a strong push for people to get vaccinated but no push telling overweight people to lose it. Nor do very many of them seem inclined to, despite constantly protesting about how important their health is. Ok. Who's a bigger risk to society? Fatty McFatFace who got her vaccines, works from home, and masks or meets outdoors. Or the people who are meeting in pubs, going to swinging clubs, going to gyms (which even before Covid had lots of MRSA, yum yum), etc? Given the unvaccinated are alleged to be the picture of health, if they just get a sniffle from Covid they could seed hundreds of infections. Go on, tell me that you're being rational and actually understand how this disease spreads. Or that you're expecting others to fix the problem. If you're worried about catching it, why are you going to public places like pubs and clubs. The vaccine does not prevent transmission, have you really not realised that yet!? I'm not going to those places. Are you? Goodness, OP, I thought you cared about social duty. I reduce my risk of spreading disease to other people by keeping my fat arse at home. I don't want to make other people sick. You don't want to make other people sick, do you?
Highlight the part where I said I believed you had a social duty to lose weight. Or are you just doing what you always do on here and throwing strawman arguments at people.
Why would you be proposing the question if you didn't advocate it?
And sure, I'll go with a social duty to lose weight. After we permanently ban any establishment where people outside households share breath for non essential purposes. Given it's airborne not fat borne
It's not a sacrifice I'm willing to make, but given your noble seeking of the greater good, maybe you can convince me otherwise.
Again, just highlight the part or withdraw the accusation rather than deciding what other people think for them
Ok. Withdrawn.
Can you answer the question above? Who's the biggest risk to society? A fat vaccinated person who's staying at home, or a healthy person "getting their life back"?
What duty do you feel you owe to society, OP?
Major risk factors are age, weight, underlying health conditions. The question cannot be distilled in the way you present it. People should be managing their own risk profile accordingly in terms of the places they visit. The duty I believe people have is to isolate if they have any reason to believe they are infectious."Then I believe you entirely misunderstand how infectious disease works. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? Most unvaccinated people are not going to die from getting infected. The argument is that if they require treatment, they are straining the NHS from someone who needs it's more. Likewise, obesity is linked so many health problems that obese people strain the NHS. There's a strong push for people to get vaccinated but no push telling overweight people to lose it. Nor do very many of them seem inclined to, despite constantly protesting about how important their health is. Ok. Who's a bigger risk to society? Fatty McFatFace who got her vaccines, works from home, and masks or meets outdoors. Or the people who are meeting in pubs, going to swinging clubs, going to gyms (which even before Covid had lots of MRSA, yum yum), etc? Given the unvaccinated are alleged to be the picture of health, if they just get a sniffle from Covid they could seed hundreds of infections. Go on, tell me that you're being rational and actually understand how this disease spreads. Or that you're expecting others to fix the problem. If you're worried about catching it, why are you going to public places like pubs and clubs. The vaccine does not prevent transmission, have you really not realised that yet!? I'm not going to those places. Are you? Goodness, OP, I thought you cared about social duty. I reduce my risk of spreading disease to other people by keeping my fat arse at home. I don't want to make other people sick. You don't want to make other people sick, do you?
Highlight the part where I said I believed you had a social duty to lose weight. Or are you just doing what you always do on here and throwing strawman arguments at people.
Why would you be proposing the question if you didn't advocate it?
And sure, I'll go with a social duty to lose weight. After we permanently ban any establishment where people outside households share breath for non essential purposes. Given it's airborne not fat borne
It's not a sacrifice I'm willing to make, but given your noble seeking of the greater good, maybe you can convince me otherwise.
Again, just highlight the part or withdraw the accusation rather than deciding what other people think for them
Ok. Withdrawn.
Can you answer the question above? Who's the biggest risk to society? A fat vaccinated person who's staying at home, or a healthy person "getting their life back"?
What duty do you feel you owe to society, OP?
Major risk factors are age, weight, underlying health conditions. The question cannot be distilled in the way you present it. People should be managing their own risk profile accordingly in terms of the places they visit. The duty I believe people have is to isolate if they have any reason to believe they are infectious.
Then I believe you entirely misunderstand how infectious disease works."Likewise but let's stick to the original topic and you can make a thread about something else if you please. I'd like to hear people's opinions on social duty if it's OK to let others get a word in. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I'm wondering what the overweight should do in the interim, assuming they've embarked upon a weightloss programme?" If they've accepted they have a social responsibility then it's probably because they want to minimise the probability they'll need NHS resources. So I think the answer would be to also try and minimise the risk of them getting infected whilst they remain a compromised group. Probably a good idea for them to get vaccinated too as the body isn't going to be instantly healthy when they hit their target weight. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I think some are just posting thoughtless clickbait, without any broader thinking processes going on" Mate... Just because you don't like someone's opinion doesn't make it clickbait. "100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people?" Negatively affect doesn't automatically mean harm. Are you to suggest morbidly obese people aren't at a significantly higher risk of health issues compared to a healthy weight person? In most cases it's the NHS who pays for that. And don't bullshit about "The thin person might have a super unhealthy lifestyle" because the same is true for the obese person, in addition to being way overweight. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I'm wondering what the overweight should do in the interim, assuming they've embarked upon a weightloss programme? If they've accepted they have a social responsibility then it's probably because they want to minimise the probability they'll need NHS resources. So I think the answer would be to also try and minimise the risk of them getting infected whilst they remain a compromised group. Probably a good idea for them to get vaccinated too as the body isn't going to be instantly healthy when they hit their target weight. " so what about the fit but overweight people..??? Like when I had a recent MRI for an issue... that the skeletal expert has told me has absolutely nothing to do with my weight.... and actually to do with all the things I did in my youth... I also have no breathing problems. Am very active... my cardiovascular system is also in very good shape. In fact apart from recently.... I'm normally very very healthy and rarely see the doctor. Except for gyne issues... which I'd have regardless of weight.. only issue my weight has caused me there is a reluctance from medical professionals to actually do the procedures that would end the issues. Okay I could be fitter but.. I walk over 20k steps most days. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I'm wondering what the overweight should do in the interim, assuming they've embarked upon a weightloss programme? If they've accepted they have a social responsibility then it's probably because they want to minimise the probability they'll need NHS resources. So I think the answer would be to also try and minimise the risk of them getting infected whilst they remain a compromised group. Probably a good idea for them to get vaccinated too as the body isn't going to be instantly healthy when they hit their target weight. so what about the fit but overweight people..??? Like when I had a recent MRI for an issue... that the skeletal expert has told me has absolutely nothing to do with my weight.... and actually to do with all the things I did in my youth... I also have no breathing problems. Am very active... my cardiovascular system is also in very good shape. In fact apart from recently.... I'm normally very very healthy and rarely see the doctor. Except for gyne issues... which I'd have regardless of weight.. only issue my weight has caused me there is a reluctance from medical professionals to actually do the procedures that would end the issues. Okay I could be fitter but.. I walk over 20k steps most days." My guess is that they wouldn't feel a social duty to lose weight but I can't speak for them. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? Most unvaccinated people are not going to die from getting infected. The argument is that if they require treatment, they are straining the NHS from someone who needs it's more. Likewise, obesity is linked so many health problems that obese people strain the NHS. There's a strong push for people to get vaccinated but no push telling overweight people to lose it. Nor do very many of them seem inclined to, despite constantly protesting about how important their health is. " The diet industry in this country is worth £2bn/year, so I don’t know where you got this idea. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? Most unvaccinated people are not going to die from getting infected. The argument is that if they require treatment, they are straining the NHS from someone who needs it's more. Likewise, obesity is linked so many health problems that obese people strain the NHS. There's a strong push for people to get vaccinated but no push telling overweight people to lose it. Nor do very many of them seem inclined to, despite constantly protesting about how important their health is. The diet industry in this country is worth £2bn/year, so I don’t know where you got this idea. " I don't know where you get the idea that's relevant to anything | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No there is no social duty to loose weight. Do you think people should be penalised for being overweight? " Is there a social duty to get vaccinated? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No there is no social duty to loose weight. Do you think people should be penalised for being overweight? Is there a social duty to get vaccinated? " There is social stigma, not social duty. If you haven't been vaccinated your a burden to the system. That's how I read your original post. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Yes - you have a duty to act in accordance with that maxim that you would will to become a universal law of nature. If you treat yourself like shit then imagine a world where everyone did the same. Socoety would collapse. Hence we have a moral duty to society to maintain a reasonable level of health when that is within our control" And how do you suggest it's controlled? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No there is no social duty to loose weight. Do you think people should be penalised for being overweight? Is there a social duty to get vaccinated? There is social stigma, not social duty. If you haven't been vaccinated your a burden to the system. That's how I read your original post. " I think the social stigma comes from people believing it's a social duty. So do you believe it's a social duty? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No there is no social duty to loose weight. Do you think people should be penalised for being overweight? Is there a social duty to get vaccinated? There is social stigma, not social duty. If you haven't been vaccinated your a burden to the system. That's how I read your original post. I think the social stigma comes from people believing it's a social duty. So do you believe it's a social duty?" No I don't. I can't dictate to anyone how they should live there life. There are far to many variables involved now, it would be futile to think people will listen. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"No there is no social duty to loose weight. Do you think people should be penalised for being overweight? Is there a social duty to get vaccinated? There is social stigma, not social duty. If you haven't been vaccinated your a burden to the system. That's how I read your original post. I think the social stigma comes from people believing it's a social duty. So do you believe it's a social duty? No I don't. I can't dictate to anyone how they should live there life. There are far to many variables involved now, it would be futile to think people will listen. " Nice and clear, thanks for your answer | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Yes - you have a duty to act in accordance with that maxim that you would will to become a universal law of nature. If you treat yourself like shit then imagine a world where everyone did the same. Socoety would collapse. Hence we have a moral duty to society to maintain a reasonable level of health when that is within our control And how do you suggest it's controlled?" It has to be controlled through education - promotion of healthy lifestyles and how to eat well and exercise - esp in a budget and under time constraints | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" How do we know what is and isn’t a healthy weight?" Really not hard to find the answer to this question if you are genuinely don't know, as opposed to just gish galloping. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"How do we know what is and isn’t a healthy weight? BMI? Body fat %?" You have to start by acknowledging some weights are not healthy. Can you agree that people on the My 600 Pound Life, with a BMI over 100 and body fat % somewhere in the 80's are unhealthy? If you can't, then you're a lost cause. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Many people believe that there's a social duty to get vaccinated. Is there a social duty to achieve a healthy bodyweight? 64% of UK adults are overweight and more than 40% of people gained 3kg during lockdown. Bodyweight is the #1 covid risk factor you can control, since you can't change your age. Being overweight makes it harder for you to breathe and increases the chance you'll have severe consequences to being infected, and therefore you're more likely to need an ICU bed. Do overweight people have a social duty to lose it?" Social Duty..... good god sounds old fashioned.
I'll get my Mum's opinion and get back to you  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Nope. Being fat is not catching " It is however one if the major strains on the NHS. If the whole point of lockdowns and vaccinations is to reduce the load on nhs, surely obesity should be just as big of a target? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Vaccine reduces likelihood of catching and spreading it. Things which will do more to spread Covid include going to pubs/cafes/restaurants, going to the gym, going to night clubs, going to swinging clubs, going to gigs, etc. If you think people are obligated to lose weight in order to stop the spread of Covid, you should be rational. All of those places should first be closed as public health hazards. Anyone who tries to overcome this should be prosecuted for prolonging the pandemic. " Really, the only people I know who've caught COVID in recent months have been double-jabbed! There is actually little evidence of transmission in gyms, restaurants etc. The main areas of transmission are hospitals, care homes, schools and people's own homes - where they'll spend more time if all the places you mention are closed. I agree with the OP. People who don't look after their own health shouldn't expect other people to do things to 'protect' them. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I however don't believe we have a social duty to do either. Should we get vaccinated or lose a few pounds/get fitter? yes probably but it's personal choice, not some sense of duty we owe to society." Is there a social duty to vaccinate? Is there a social duty to maintain a healthy weight? The logically consistent answers, as I see it, are: yes, yes or no, no. It's the yes, no people who baffle me. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"You are treading a very sticky wicket here OP. This could easily be construed as another dig at fat people." I wonder if you get equally outraged at the digs against unvaccinated people. My guess would be you don't. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The question is interesting for sure. The vaccine helps to prevent hospitalisation and overwhelming the NHS. If it is a social duty to do your part in reducing the spread of covid and the hospitalisation of people, the vaccine is certainly a tool in that effort. The question is asking if you are overweight should you try and lose weight to lesson the risk of being hospitalised if you become ill with covid. If you apply the same social duty framework, help prevent the spread and reduce hospitalisation then surely the answer is yes. Wearing a mask, social distancing, washing your hands are all part of the framework too, anything that can be done to prevent the overwhelming of the NHS and ultimately preventing deaths and lockdowns is a social duty. To say being overweight is not effecting anyone but me, is the same as someone saying "I'm not having the vaccine, it effects nobody but me". Both can be addressed with direct action to help prevent the hospitalisation of the individual. Caveats as expected, medical conditions that effect both weight and vaccine would rule out individuals being able to take preventative actions, which is perfectly normal. " Logically consistent | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Is there a social duty to vaccinate? Is there a social duty to maintain a healthy weight? The logically consistent answers, as I see it, are: yes, yes or no, no. It's the yes, no people who baffle me. " The problem is that life isn't as black and white as we'd like so things aren't logically consistent, however much we may want them to be. There is a big difference between society expecting us to give up 30 minutes of our time to get vaccinated and placing a social duty on us to make serious lifestyle changes. Those with logically inconsistent answers recognise and understand these grey areas. I also think that you are focusing too much on the 'duty' part of the phrase and not enough on the 'social' part. 'Society' has made it easy to get a vaccine. People have given up their time, resources and community spaces to make the process as efficient as possible. You won't get that with losing weight simply because having a population more or less dependent on unhealthy, processed foods whilst also creating such a large diet focussed industry is of far more value to those in charge. This means there is little motivation to make a real effort to change anything. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"You are treading a very sticky wicket here OP. This could easily be construed as another dig at fat people. I wonder if you get equally outraged at the digs against unvaccinated people. My guess would be you don't. " So you are admitting to having a dig at fat people OP.
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"You are treading a very sticky wicket here OP. This could easily be construed as another dig at fat people. I wonder if you get equally outraged at the digs against unvaccinated people. My guess would be you don't. So you are admitting to having a dig at fat people OP.
"Nope, if you'd read the thread you'd know the answer already. But thanks for confirming your prejudices. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Is there a social duty to vaccinate? Is there a social duty to maintain a healthy weight? The logically consistent answers, as I see it, are: yes, yes or no, no. It's the yes, no people who baffle me. The problem is that life isn't as black and white as we'd like so things aren't logically consistent, however much we may want them to be. There is a big difference between society expecting us to give up 30 minutes of our time to get vaccinated and placing a social duty on us to make serious lifestyle changes. Those with logically inconsistent answers recognise and understand these grey areas. I also think that you are focusing too much on the 'duty' part of the phrase and not enough on the 'social' part. 'Society' has made it easy to get a vaccine. People have given up their time, resources and community spaces to make the process as efficient as possible. You won't get that with losing weight simply because having a population more or less dependent on unhealthy, processed foods whilst also creating such a large diet focussed industry is of far more value to those in charge. This means there is little motivation to make a real effort to change anything." Couple of things, yes getting a vaccine is quick and easy, but it's not one or the other and the covid vaccine isn't going to prevent you getting diabetes, or needing NHS treatment for another obesity related condition. I'm also talking about what people believe, which is not exactly the same as what they might be doing right now. For example, someone might believe that it is their social duty to get vaccinated and lose weight. It may not be very practical for them to lose weight immediately, maybe they have a broken leg that makes it extremely impractical to exercise. But they could still be sincerely committed to doing so once their leg heals. So I'm focused on the belief system more than the results, although I accept they are not mutually exclusive at a population level. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Is there a social duty to vaccinate? Is there a social duty to maintain a healthy weight? The logically consistent answers, as I see it, are: yes, yes or no, no. It's the yes, no people who baffle me. The problem is that life isn't as black and white as we'd like so things aren't logically consistent, however much we may want them to be. There is a big difference between society expecting us to give up 30 minutes of our time to get vaccinated and placing a social duty on us to make serious lifestyle changes. Those with logically inconsistent answers recognise and understand these grey areas. I also think that you are focusing too much on the 'duty' part of the phrase and not enough on the 'social' part. 'Society' has made it easy to get a vaccine. People have given up their time, resources and community spaces to make the process as efficient as possible. You won't get that with losing weight simply because having a population more or less dependent on unhealthy, processed foods whilst also creating such a large diet focussed industry is of far more value to those in charge. This means there is little motivation to make a real effort to change anything. Couple of things, yes getting a vaccine is quick and easy, but it's not one or the other and the covid vaccine isn't going to prevent you getting diabetes, or needing NHS treatment for another obesity related condition. I'm also talking about what people believe, which is not exactly the same as what they might be doing right now. For example, someone might believe that it is their social duty to get vaccinated and lose weight. It may not be very practical for them to lose weight immediately, maybe they have a broken leg that makes it extremely impractical to exercise. But they could still be sincerely committed to doing so once their leg heals. So I'm focused on the belief system more than the results, although I accept they are not mutually exclusive at a population level. " Your comments throughout have been about people losing weight, maintaining a healthy weight etc. That is the result not the belief system. Getting a vaccine is also a result, not a belief so I'm a bit confused by your statement above about being focused on the belief system not the results. If we are talking about beliefs rather than results then I'm definitely on the side of no social duty. We live in a free country and are free to believe whatever we want. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Many people believe that there's a social duty to get vaccinated. Is there a social duty to achieve a healthy bodyweight? 64% of UK adults are overweight and more than 40% of people gained 3kg during lockdown. Bodyweight is the #1 covid risk factor you can control, since you can't change your age. Being overweight makes it harder for you to breathe and increases the chance you'll have severe consequences to being infected, and therefore you're more likely to need an ICU bed. Do overweight people have a social duty to lose it?" Are you sure body weight is the number 1 factor in increased hospitalisations due to covid? Then is a j curve in terms of hospitilisations no denying that I've seen many papers show this Associations between body-mass index and COVID-19 severity in 6·9 million people in England: a prospective, community-based, cohort study this is a Lancet paper showing it also Do you suggest that vaccinations, maintaining social distancing, basic hygiene are secondary to risk of hospitalisation from covid than bmi? I honestly dont know the answer to that but I'd be hesitant to agree. Or maybe I am missing the point. I agree people should take up health enhancing behaviours in order to avoid certain illness that will require lengthy treatments not just for costs and pressure but for themselves. Not just weight management but smoking, drinking, getting sleep, sedentary behaviours, diet all that crap | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"How is Bodyweight any sign that a person is healthy? I played rugby for 30 years lifted weights kept myself fit, still do, but according to my bmi I'm morbidly obese. Likewise I know people whose bmi is in target yet they smoke, drink and eat absolute garbage. Who is the healthier person in your eyes?" Reading your reply I assume you know that muscle will alter BMI as it weighs heavier than fat and BMI is an indicator only. In your situation you already know you are not at excessive risk should you contract covid as you are playing sport and keeping yourself fit. However the people you know that are not leading such healthy lifestyles do you think they are at more risk of serious complications and being hospitalised if they had covid? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Is there a social duty to vaccinate? Is there a social duty to maintain a healthy weight? The logically consistent answers, as I see it, are: yes, yes or no, no. It's the yes, no people who baffle me. The problem is that life isn't as black and white as we'd like so things aren't logically consistent, however much we may want them to be. There is a big difference between society expecting us to give up 30 minutes of our time to get vaccinated and placing a social duty on us to make serious lifestyle changes. Those with logically inconsistent answers recognise and understand these grey areas. I also think that you are focusing too much on the 'duty' part of the phrase and not enough on the 'social' part. 'Society' has made it easy to get a vaccine. People have given up their time, resources and community spaces to make the process as efficient as possible. You won't get that with losing weight simply because having a population more or less dependent on unhealthy, processed foods whilst also creating such a large diet focussed industry is of far more value to those in charge. This means there is little motivation to make a real effort to change anything. Couple of things, yes getting a vaccine is quick and easy, but it's not one or the other and the covid vaccine isn't going to prevent you getting diabetes, or needing NHS treatment for another obesity related condition. I'm also talking about what people believe, which is not exactly the same as what they might be doing right now. For example, someone might believe that it is their social duty to get vaccinated and lose weight. It may not be very practical for them to lose weight immediately, maybe they have a broken leg that makes it extremely impractical to exercise. But they could still be sincerely committed to doing so once their leg heals. So I'm focused on the belief system more than the results, although I accept they are not mutually exclusive at a population level. Your comments throughout have been about people losing weight, maintaining a healthy weight etc. That is the result not the belief system. Getting a vaccine is also a result, not a belief so I'm a bit confused by your statement above about being focused on the belief system not the results. If we are talking about beliefs rather than results then I'm definitely on the side of no social duty. We live in a free country and are free to believe whatever we want. " You wanted to talk about grey areas so I gave you an olive branch. But as I said, belief and results aren't mutually exclusive at the population level. I gave the figures at the start - most people were overweight before the pandemic and hardly any have lost weight during it. That's why I'm somewhat bemused to hear certain people talk about a social duty to get vaccinated. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"How is Bodyweight any sign that a person is healthy? I played rugby for 30 years lifted weights kept myself fit, still do, but according to my bmi I'm morbidly obese. Likewise I know people whose bmi is in target yet they smoke, drink and eat absolute garbage. Who is the healthier person in your eyes?" Completly agree. I've done research where I've used bmi along other measures of health like vo2 max, BP, resting heart rate etc. But in research it needs to be used, all you need is height and weight. In big sample studies you cant give everyone a dexa scan to measure body composition. It is the best measure really for large sample studies but has limitations | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Many people believe that there's a social duty to get vaccinated. Is there a social duty to achieve a healthy bodyweight? 64% of UK adults are overweight and more than 40% of people gained 3kg during lockdown. Bodyweight is the #1 covid risk factor you can control, since you can't change your age. Being overweight makes it harder for you to breathe and increases the chance you'll have severe consequences to being infected, and therefore you're more likely to need an ICU bed. Do overweight people have a social duty to lose it? Are you sure body weight is the number 1 factor in increased hospitalisations due to covid? Then is a j curve in terms of hospitilisations no denying that I've seen many papers show this Associations between body-mass index and COVID-19 severity in 6·9 million people in England: a prospective, community-based, cohort study this is a Lancet paper showing it also Do you suggest that vaccinations, maintaining social distancing, basic hygiene are secondary to risk of hospitalisation from covid than bmi? I honestly dont know the answer to that but I'd be hesitant to agree. Or maybe I am missing the point. I agree people should take up health enhancing behaviours in order to avoid certain illness that will require lengthy treatments not just for costs and pressure but for themselves. Not just weight management but smoking, drinking, getting sleep, sedentary behaviours, diet all that crap " The major risk factors are age, obesity and underlying conditions. But you can't change your age and I'm pretty sure people with other health problems are already trying to get those treated, so tackling an unhealthy weight is the #1 factor within your control, which is not to say you shouldn't do that and get vaccinated. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Many people believe that there's a social duty to get vaccinated. Is there a social duty to achieve a healthy bodyweight? 64% of UK adults are overweight and more than 40% of people gained 3kg during lockdown. Bodyweight is the #1 covid risk factor you can control, since you can't change your age. Being overweight makes it harder for you to breathe and increases the chance you'll have severe consequences to being infected, and therefore you're more likely to need an ICU bed. Do overweight people have a social duty to lose it?" Whilst I’m not sure I agree on the whole “social duty” aspect or body size shaming…. As someone with a BMI of 33 and super active, the whole covid situation has made me much more motivated to lose weight. Don’t see it as a social duty to others but maybe a duty to myself as it’s something I can control (appreciate for many reasons others can’t) | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"There isn’t a social duty to get vaccinated. That’s a peer pressure tactic that’s being used but you really have no duty to get vaccinated. The main benefit is to you, the main thing to consider is yourself. If you’re vaccinated you can still spread it. It makes no difference." Social duty is about acting how you hope others will act. If noone had the vaccine how would society be right now? You benefit from others having the vaccine so you do have a social dury - it is actually immoral, deontologically and teleologically, to not get the vaccine if you are offered it. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" As someone with a BMI of 33 and super active, the whole covid situation has made me much more motivated to lose weight. " Could you say more about this please? - I'm interested which aspects motivated you, at what point in the pandemic did you start to feel more motivated? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"There isn’t a social duty to get vaccinated. That’s a peer pressure tactic that’s being used but you really have no duty to get vaccinated. The main benefit is to you, the main thing to consider is yourself. If you’re vaccinated you can still spread it. It makes no difference. Social duty is about acting how you hope others will act. If noone had the vaccine how would society be right now? You benefit from others having the vaccine so you do have a social dury - it is actually immoral, deontologically and teleologically, to not get the vaccine if you are offered it." Really not much evidence of that being true but anyway, do you believe people have a social duty to maintain a healthy bodyweight? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" As someone with a BMI of 33 and super active, the whole covid situation has made me much more motivated to lose weight. Could you say more about this please? - I'm interested which aspects motivated you, at what point in the pandemic did you start to feel more motivated? " I’ve always been super active, CrossFit 3x per week, overweight but not massively. I guess just knowing something I’ve done to myself (again appreciate it’s not the same story for everyone that’s overweight) that puts you at a higher risk is scary! Covid was horrendous for lots of the super fit, take Lewis Hamilton, but in my mind, being unhealthy in any way had to make it more difficult. I don’t think it’s my duty to others to lose weight, but it would potentially be a massive benefit to me health wise which in turn is a massive benefit to the country. But losing weight is hard, and doing it for others if you struggle will never be a strong enough “why”. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"You are treading a very sticky wicket here OP. This could easily be construed as another dig at fat people. I wonder if you get equally outraged at the digs against unvaccinated people. My guess would be you don't. So you are admitting to having a dig at fat people OP.
Nope, if you'd read the thread you'd know the answer already. But thanks for confirming your prejudices. "Nope I have read the thread and I think you have that the wrong way around. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I however don't believe we have a social duty to do either. Should we get vaccinated or lose a few pounds/get fitter? yes probably but it's personal choice, not some sense of duty we owe to society. Is there a social duty to vaccinate? Is there a social duty to maintain a healthy weight? The logically consistent answers, as I see it, are: yes, yes or no, no. It's the yes, no people who baffle me. " Spot on. One of the common things thrown at unvaccinated people is that they take up nhs resources therefore are selfish. As such, fat people do too. Yet there’s no abuse of them. Why? Because the media haven’t pushed that. To be clear, I don’t think either should be criticised. Be fat or thin. Be vaxxed or not. Both is fine. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Another fat shaming thread "Definitely not a fat shaming thread, OP is using a variable as a comparison. Don try spin it to be something else to discredit OP because you failed to understand the point. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Another fat shaming thread
Definitely not a fat shaming thread, OP is using a variable as a comparison. Don try spin it to be something else to discredit OP because you failed to understand the point.
"I do understand the point, and you can dress it up anyway you like. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I however don't believe we have a social duty to do either. Should we get vaccinated or lose a few pounds/get fitter? yes probably but it's personal choice, not some sense of duty we owe to society. Is there a social duty to vaccinate? Is there a social duty to maintain a healthy weight? The logically consistent answers, as I see it, are: yes, yes or no, no. It's the yes, no people who baffle me. Spot on. One of the common things thrown at unvaccinated people is that they take up nhs resources therefore are selfish. As such, fat people do too. Yet there’s no abuse of them. Why? Because the media haven’t pushed that. To be clear, I don’t think either should be criticised. Be fat or thin. Be vaxxed or not. Both is fine." Exactly. i'm unvaccinated. I'm fit, eat healthy, exercise everyday, ive rarely been hospital in my entire life, less times than i can count on both my hands. I pay my taxes. NHS is mine to use however i see fit. Yet i rarely go there. However, it's now the vaccinated clogging up the NHS more so than the unvaccinated. By their logic the vaccinated should not be allowed to use the nhs because they are putting a strain on it. It's just silly isn't it? just another reason to shift blame to the unvaccinated. There's a reason why our NHS is the envy of the world. No one should be turned away from using it. The government need to be hung out to dry for selling it off piece by piece and underfunding it, if it wasn't for that, it would be able to cope. End of. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I however don't believe we have a social duty to do either. Should we get vaccinated or lose a few pounds/get fitter? yes probably but it's personal choice, not some sense of duty we owe to society. Is there a social duty to vaccinate? Is there a social duty to maintain a healthy weight? The logically consistent answers, as I see it, are: yes, yes or no, no. It's the yes, no people who baffle me. Spot on. One of the common things thrown at unvaccinated people is that they take up nhs resources therefore are selfish. As such, fat people do too. Yet there’s no abuse of them. Why? Because the media haven’t pushed that. To be clear, I don’t think either should be criticised. Be fat or thin. Be vaxxed or not. Both is fine." Probably don’t take up as many resources as smokers or people who go out and get d*unk and end up in a&e. What about older people. Sure let’s just make it illegal to be sick | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Another fat shaming thread
Definitely not a fat shaming thread, OP is using a variable as a comparison. Don try spin it to be something else to discredit OP because you failed to understand the point.
I do understand the point, and you can dress it up anyway you like.
"what? like the way you are dressing it up as a fat shaming thread? Grow up. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Another fat shaming thread
Definitely not a fat shaming thread, OP is using a variable as a comparison. Don try spin it to be something else to discredit OP because you failed to understand the point.
I do understand the point, and you can dress it up anyway you like.
what? like the way you are dressing it up as a fat shaming thread?
Grow up. "Oh dear. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Many people believe that there's a social duty to get vaccinated. Is there a social duty to achieve a healthy bodyweight? 64% of UK adults are overweight and more than 40% of people gained 3kg during lockdown. Bodyweight is the #1 covid risk factor you can control, since you can't change your age. Being overweight makes it harder for you to breathe and increases the chance you'll have severe consequences to being infected, and therefore you're more likely to need an ICU bed. Do overweight people have a social duty to lose it?" No one has a social duty to do anything. No one owes anyone anything. No one is obliged to do anything. It's entirely up to the individual. It's called freedom of choice. Freedom. Something becoming increasingly scarce lately. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"There isn’t a social duty to get vaccinated. That’s a peer pressure tactic that’s being used but you really have no duty to get vaccinated. The main benefit is to you, the main thing to consider is yourself. If you’re vaccinated you can still spread it. It makes no difference. Social duty is about acting how you hope others will act. If noone had the vaccine how would society be right now? You benefit from others having the vaccine so you do have a social dury - it is actually immoral, deontologically and teleologically, to not get the vaccine if you are offered it. Really not much evidence of that being true but anyway, do you believe people have a social duty to maintain a healthy bodyweight? " Well...if you don't believe in Kantian deontology why are you concerned with duty at all? You must be an ethical teleologist - in which case there is no duty and the only ethical consideration is the consequences. Luckily in this case, both schools of thought say the same thing- getting vaccinated is the only moral course of action | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Many people believe that there's a social duty to get vaccinated. Is there a social duty to achieve a healthy bodyweight? 64% of UK adults are overweight and more than 40% of people gained 3kg during lockdown. Bodyweight is the #1 covid risk factor you can control, since you can't change your age. Being overweight makes it harder for you to breathe and increases the chance you'll have severe consequences to being infected, and therefore you're more likely to need an ICU bed. Do overweight people have a social duty to lose it? No one has a social duty to do anything. No one owes anyone anything. No one is obliged to do anything. It's entirely up to the individual. It's called freedom of choice. Freedom. Something becoming increasingly scarce lately. " Apart from have an opinion on fab so it seems. Because I interpret the thread differently its a null and void point? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Another fat shaming thread "Only you and one other have mentioned the word fat. Why are you using that word? The thread is about taking possible action of the things we have control over to help minimise the impact of covid on the individual and the NHS. It has been mentioned some people will have medical reasons that prevent them from being healthier or losing weight. It is remarks like the one you made that dilute reasonable discussion and actually bring the "shame" element into a discussion where it was not needed. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Another fat shaming thread
Only you and one other have mentioned the word fat. Why are you using that word?
The thread is about taking possible action of the things we have control over to help minimise the impact of covid on the individual and the NHS.
It has been mentioned some people will have medical reasons that prevent them from being healthier or losing weight.
It is remarks like the one you made that dilute reasonable discussion and actually bring the "shame" element into a discussion where it was not needed. "Why does it bring shame on the thread? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I however don't believe we have a social duty to do either. Should we get vaccinated or lose a few pounds/get fitter? yes probably but it's personal choice, not some sense of duty we owe to society. Is there a social duty to vaccinate? Is there a social duty to maintain a healthy weight? The logically consistent answers, as I see it, are: yes, yes or no, no. It's the yes, no people who baffle me. Spot on. One of the common things thrown at unvaccinated people is that they take up nhs resources therefore are selfish. As such, fat people do too. Yet there’s no abuse of them. Why? Because the media haven’t pushed that. To be clear, I don’t think either should be criticised. Be fat or thin. Be vaxxed or not. Both is fine. Probably don’t take up as many resources as smokers or people who go out and get d*unk and end up in a&e. What about older people. Sure let’s just make it illegal to be sick" Agreed. There’s all sorts of things that take up resources. But the media haven’t been telling the masses to turn on smokers, drinkers etc. They’ve labelled people who don’t want a vaccine “anti vax conspiracy theorists” (when most are neither anti vax in general, nor conspiracy theorists), it’s deliberate divide and rule, and the naive public (in some cases) fall for it. Hence you get places like this forum. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Another fat shaming thread
Only you and one other have mentioned the word fat. Why are you using that word?
The thread is about taking possible action of the things we have control over to help minimise the impact of covid on the individual and the NHS.
It has been mentioned some people will have medical reasons that prevent them from being healthier or losing weight.
It is remarks like the one you made that dilute reasonable discussion and actually bring the "shame" element into a discussion where it was not needed.
Why does it bring shame on the thread?"By trying to twist the discussion to one of shaming. It wasn't part of the discussion until you threw it in there. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Another fat shaming thread
Only you and one other have mentioned the word fat. Why are you using that word?
The thread is about taking possible action of the things we have control over to help minimise the impact of covid on the individual and the NHS.
It has been mentioned some people will have medical reasons that prevent them from being healthier or losing weight.
It is remarks like the one you made that dilute reasonable discussion and actually bring the "shame" element into a discussion where it was not needed. "No but some replies and some of the terminology being used is leaning towards losing weight and how being overweight is bad. On the point of the thread I put up an article and if look at it underweight individuals with covid are more likely to end up requiring hospitalisation than those in normal or overweight categories, risk isnt higher until in obese categories. So weight management should be the issue and not losing weight. And as I mentioned before I am in agreement that individuals should lead healthier lifestyles to reduce burden, so those that unfortunately end up sick have better resources available to them. But judging it solely on weight is wrong, yes obesity is a risk factor in many illnesses, so is drinking, smoking, lack of sleep, poor diet and being sedentary amongst many others. The aim should be encouraging people to adapt in promoting health enhancing behaviours | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Another fat shaming thread
Only you and one other have mentioned the word fat. Why are you using that word?
The thread is about taking possible action of the things we have control over to help minimise the impact of covid on the individual and the NHS.
It has been mentioned some people will have medical reasons that prevent them from being healthier or losing weight.
It is remarks like the one you made that dilute reasonable discussion and actually bring the "shame" element into a discussion where it was not needed.
Why does it bring shame on the thread?
By trying to twist the discussion to one of shaming. It wasn't part of the discussion until you threw it in there. "The initial post highlights overweight people as a root cause. Would overweight shaming been more suitable? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" As someone with a BMI of 33 and super active, the whole covid situation has made me much more motivated to lose weight. Could you say more about this please? - I'm interested which aspects motivated you, at what point in the pandemic did you start to feel more motivated? I’ve always been super active, CrossFit 3x per week, overweight but not massively. I guess just knowing something I’ve done to myself (again appreciate it’s not the same story for everyone that’s overweight) that puts you at a higher risk is scary! Covid was horrendous for lots of the super fit, take Lewis Hamilton, but in my mind, being unhealthy in any way had to make it more difficult. I don’t think it’s my duty to others to lose weight, but it would potentially be a massive benefit to me health wise which in turn is a massive benefit to the country. But losing weight is hard, and doing it for others if you struggle will never be a strong enough “why”. " Awesome, well done | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I just had confirmation of my offshore medical for tomorrow. This will include my BMI. It will be interesting to see what it's comes up as. I'm the fitisest I've been since I left the forces but at my peak I was 11st, now I'm 16st 20 years down the line. " Fitisest FFS lol | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Many people believe that there's a social duty to get vaccinated. Is there a social duty to achieve a healthy bodyweight? 64% of UK adults are overweight and more than 40% of people gained 3kg during lockdown. Bodyweight is the #1 covid risk factor you can control, since you can't change your age. Being overweight makes it harder for you to breathe and increases the chance you'll have severe consequences to being infected, and therefore you're more likely to need an ICU bed. Do overweight people have a social duty to lose it?" Really??? Ignorance at its best!! I wish I could control my weight, but unfortunately, along with many others, mine is down to medical issues! OK, I'm not massive, and I'm lucky, I would love to just go on a diet and lose weight, but it isn't that simple | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Nope. Being fat is not catching " getting covid while fat is a risk though vaccinated or unvaccinated and either way a person is a risk of catching it. So if we expect everyone to be vaccinated or face extra restrictions we should expect everyone to be as healthy as possible or face restrictions. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I however don't believe we have a social duty to do either. Should we get vaccinated or lose a few pounds/get fitter? yes probably but it's personal choice, not some sense of duty we owe to society. Is there a social duty to vaccinate? Is there a social duty to maintain a healthy weight? The logically consistent answers, as I see it, are: yes, yes or no, no. It's the yes, no people who baffle me. Spot on. One of the common things thrown at unvaccinated people is that they take up nhs resources therefore are selfish. As such, fat people do too. Yet there’s no abuse of them. Why? Because the media haven’t pushed that. To be clear, I don’t think either should be criticised. Be fat or thin. Be vaxxed or not. Both is fine. Probably don’t take up as many resources as smokers or people who go out and get d*unk and end up in a&e. What about older people. Sure let’s just make it illegal to be sick Agreed. There’s all sorts of things that take up resources. But the media haven’t been telling the masses to turn on smokers, drinkers etc. They’ve labelled people who don’t want a vaccine “anti vax conspiracy theorists” (when most are neither anti vax in general, nor conspiracy theorists), it’s deliberate divide and rule, and the naive public (in some cases) fall for it. Hence you get places like this forum." Exactly, the majority of posts have just been attempts to deflect from the original question. Those are probably the people who think there's a social duty to get vaccinated but not to maintain a healthy weight, they just don't want to say it so explicitly because it's so obviously absurd when they write it out. I have no strong feelings whether people think it's yes, yes or no, no - just be consistent. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I however don't believe we have a social duty to do either. Should we get vaccinated or lose a few pounds/get fitter? yes probably but it's personal choice, not some sense of duty we owe to society. Is there a social duty to vaccinate? Is there a social duty to maintain a healthy weight? The logically consistent answers, as I see it, are: yes, yes or no, no. It's the yes, no people who baffle me. Spot on. One of the common things thrown at unvaccinated people is that they take up nhs resources therefore are selfish. As such, fat people do too. Yet there’s no abuse of them. Why? Because the media haven’t pushed that. To be clear, I don’t think either should be criticised. Be fat or thin. Be vaxxed or not. Both is fine. Probably don’t take up as many resources as smokers or people who go out and get d*unk and end up in a&e. What about older people. Sure let’s just make it illegal to be sick Agreed. There’s all sorts of things that take up resources. But the media haven’t been telling the masses to turn on smokers, drinkers etc. They’ve labelled people who don’t want a vaccine “anti vax conspiracy theorists” (when most are neither anti vax in general, nor conspiracy theorists), it’s deliberate divide and rule, and the naive public (in some cases) fall for it. Hence you get places like this forum. Exactly, the majority of posts have just been attempts to deflect from the original question. Those are probably the people who think there's a social duty to get vaccinated but not to maintain a healthy weight, they just don't want to say it so explicitly because it's so obviously absurd when they write it out. I have no strong feelings whether people think it's yes, yes or no, no - just be consistent. " Spot on. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Not sure if anyone on this thread understands the mental battle to over come weight. The social duty wording, comes across as adding more pressure.... " How would you feel if Michael Gove said you were selfish? How about if there were countries banning you from entering supermarkets, or losing your job over it. Or people routinely bleating that you should be denied NHS treatment if you need it. How would that make you feel? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Another fat shaming thread
Only you and one other have mentioned the word fat. Why are you using that word?
The thread is about taking possible action of the things we have control over to help minimise the impact of covid on the individual and the NHS.
It has been mentioned some people will have medical reasons that prevent them from being healthier or losing weight.
It is remarks like the one you made that dilute reasonable discussion and actually bring the "shame" element into a discussion where it was not needed.
Why does it bring shame on the thread?
By trying to twist the discussion to one of shaming. It wasn't part of the discussion until you threw it in there.
The initial post highlights overweight people as a root cause.
Would overweight shaming been more suitable?
"If you go to your doctor for a medical and they advise you it would be in your best interest to lose weight, would you accuse them of fat shaming? The post is saying should people if they can, manage their weight to better deal with the implications of covid, as you would do by wearing a mask, or having a vaccine. The emphasis is on if you can, not you should.... | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Not sure if anyone on this thread understands the mental battle to over come weight. The social duty wording, comes across as adding more pressure.... How would you feel if Michael Gove said you were selfish? How about if there were countries banning you from entering supermarkets, or losing your job over it. Or people routinely bleating that you should be denied NHS treatment if you need it. How would that make you feel? " Indeed, while repeatedly evidencing “the science” that being overweight has a direct impact on the nhs, takes up beds, makes you twice as likely to have severe covid, means other people have operations cancelled due to your selfishness etc…. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Not sure if anyone on this thread understands the mental battle to over come weight. The social duty wording, comes across as adding more pressure.... How would you feel if Michael Gove said you were selfish? How about if there were countries banning you from entering supermarkets, or losing your job over it. Or people routinely bleating that you should be denied NHS treatment if you need it. How would that make you feel? " Belittled, because like I said - nobody is thinking about discussing the mental side of eaters! Do you think the issue with larger people lies somewhere else? I'd love to read it! Without nastiness! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Another fat shaming thread
Only you and one other have mentioned the word fat. Why are you using that word?
The thread is about taking possible action of the things we have control over to help minimise the impact of covid on the individual and the NHS.
It has been mentioned some people will have medical reasons that prevent them from being healthier or losing weight.
It is remarks like the one you made that dilute reasonable discussion and actually bring the "shame" element into a discussion where it was not needed.
Why does it bring shame on the thread?
By trying to twist the discussion to one of shaming. It wasn't part of the discussion until you threw it in there.
The initial post highlights overweight people as a root cause.
Would overweight shaming been more suitable?
If you go to your doctor for a medical and they advise you it would be in your best interest to lose weight, would you accuse them of fat shaming?
The post is saying should people if they can, manage their weight to better deal with the implications of covid, as you would do by wearing a mask, or having a vaccine. The emphasis is on if you can, not you should...."Exactly, it's such a stupid and immature term to use. That same doctor would also advise you not to smoke, if you do. They aren't smoker-shaming you, they are telling you hard facts about your health. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Another fat shaming thread
Only you and one other have mentioned the word fat. Why are you using that word?
The thread is about taking possible action of the things we have control over to help minimise the impact of covid on the individual and the NHS.
It has been mentioned some people will have medical reasons that prevent them from being healthier or losing weight.
It is remarks like the one you made that dilute reasonable discussion and actually bring the "shame" element into a discussion where it was not needed.
Why does it bring shame on the thread?
By trying to twist the discussion to one of shaming. It wasn't part of the discussion until you threw it in there.
The initial post highlights overweight people as a root cause.
Would overweight shaming been more suitable?
If you go to your doctor for a medical and they advise you it would be in your best interest to lose weight, would you accuse them of fat shaming?
The post is saying should people if they can, manage their weight to better deal with the implications of covid, as you would do by wearing a mask, or having a vaccine. The emphasis is on if you can, not you should...."Doctor would ask more in-depth questions these days to get to the root of the problem. Then ask if you would like help from another professional first. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Not sure if anyone on this thread understands the mental battle to over come weight. The social duty wording, comes across as adding more pressure.... How would you feel if Michael Gove said you were selfish? How about if there were countries banning you from entering supermarkets, or losing your job over it. Or people routinely bleating that you should be denied NHS treatment if you need it. How would that make you feel? Belittled, because like I said - nobody is thinking about discussing the mental side of eaters! Do you think the issue with larger people lies somewhere else? I'd love to read it! Without nastiness! " I’m not sure where you are going with this? Some people don’t want to be vaccinated but they are vindicated for it. Some people choose to be vaccinated but then take no excersise, eat very unhealthy and so therefore are over weight and risk putting themselves in hospital with covid? Should they not be vindicated too??? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Another fat shaming thread
Only you and one other have mentioned the word fat. Why are you using that word?
The thread is about taking possible action of the things we have control over to help minimise the impact of covid on the individual and the NHS.
It has been mentioned some people will have medical reasons that prevent them from being healthier or losing weight.
It is remarks like the one you made that dilute reasonable discussion and actually bring the "shame" element into a discussion where it was not needed.
Why does it bring shame on the thread?
By trying to twist the discussion to one of shaming. It wasn't part of the discussion until you threw it in there.
The initial post highlights overweight people as a root cause.
Would overweight shaming been more suitable?
If you go to your doctor for a medical and they advise you it would be in your best interest to lose weight, would you accuse them of fat shaming?
The post is saying should people if they can, manage their weight to better deal with the implications of covid, as you would do by wearing a mask, or having a vaccine. The emphasis is on if you can, not you should....
Doctor would ask more in-depth questions these days to get to the root of the problem.
Then ask if you would like help from another professional first."That is what would be expected. However they would not take kindly to being called a fat shamer when they mentioned weight problems. This thread is not about those that can't lose weight | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Not sure if anyone on this thread understands the mental battle to over come weight. The social duty wording, comes across as adding more pressure.... How would you feel if Michael Gove said you were selfish? How about if there were countries banning you from entering supermarkets, or losing your job over it. Or people routinely bleating that you should be denied NHS treatment if you need it. How would that make you feel? Belittled, because like I said - nobody is thinking about discussing the mental side of eaters! Do you think the issue with larger people lies somewhere else? I'd love to read it! Without nastiness! " I'm in the "no,no" camp. I'm not a fan of forcing, excluding and coercing people. I'm just a bit shocked to see it being done so brazenly. Noam Chomsky was saying the unvaccinated should be totally excluded from society and "it's their problem" how they'd get food, and he's Jewish ffs. Forcing people into ghettos and starving, where have we seen that before | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Not sure if anyone on this thread understands the mental battle to over come weight. The social duty wording, comes across as adding more pressure.... How would you feel if Michael Gove said you were selfish? How about if there were countries banning you from entering supermarkets, or losing your job over it. Or people routinely bleating that you should be denied NHS treatment if you need it. How would that make you feel? Belittled, because like I said - nobody is thinking about discussing the mental side of eaters! Do you think the issue with larger people lies somewhere else? I'd love to read it! Without nastiness! I’m not sure where you are going with this? Some people don’t want to be vaccinated but they are vindicated for it. Some people choose to be vaccinated but then take no excersise, eat very unhealthy and so therefore are over weight and risk putting themselves in hospital with covid? Should they not be vindicated too???" Where am I going with it... The social duty wording I have a problem with - it gives a feel of pressure or shaming as one has expressed. I'm saying give folk the mental help first without the pressure feel of words and help them over come their weight issue first. This thread is making it sound easy to lose weight! Good for you if you can motivate and feed yourself great food! Lots in the world don't have the mental means and drive.... I'm asking if anyone has ideas how to help those..... | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Not sure if anyone on this thread understands the mental battle to over come weight. The social duty wording, comes across as adding more pressure.... How would you feel if Michael Gove said you were selfish? How about if there were countries banning you from entering supermarkets, or losing your job over it. Or people routinely bleating that you should be denied NHS treatment if you need it. How would that make you feel? Belittled, because like I said - nobody is thinking about discussing the mental side of eaters! Do you think the issue with larger people lies somewhere else? I'd love to read it! Without nastiness! I’m not sure where you are going with this? Some people don’t want to be vaccinated but they are vindicated for it. Some people choose to be vaccinated but then take no excersise, eat very unhealthy and so therefore are over weight and risk putting themselves in hospital with covid? Should they not be vindicated too??? Where am I going with it... The social duty wording I have a problem with - it gives a feel of pressure or shaming as one has expressed. I'm saying give folk the mental help first without the pressure feel of words and help them over come their weight issue first. This thread is making it sound easy to lose weight! Good for you if you can motivate and feed yourself great food! Lots in the world don't have the mental means and drive.... I'm asking if anyone has ideas how to help those....." we could stop them going to pubs, restaurants, night clubs, sporting events, concerts, not let them have certain jobs till they lose weight that would be a good incentive oh wait but that would be wrong and a form of discrimination. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Not sure if anyone on this thread understands the mental battle to over come weight. The social duty wording, comes across as adding more pressure.... How would you feel if Michael Gove said you were selfish? How about if there were countries banning you from entering supermarkets, or losing your job over it. Or people routinely bleating that you should be denied NHS treatment if you need it. How would that make you feel? Belittled, because like I said - nobody is thinking about discussing the mental side of eaters! Do you think the issue with larger people lies somewhere else? I'd love to read it! Without nastiness! I'm in the "no,no" camp. I'm not a fan of forcing, excluding and coercing people. I'm just a bit shocked to see it being done so brazenly. Noam Chomsky was saying the unvaccinated should be totally excluded from society and "it's their problem" how they'd get food, and he's Jewish ffs. Forcing people into ghettos and starving, where have we seen that before "Spot on. Again. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"There isn’t a social duty to get vaccinated. That’s a peer pressure tactic that’s being used but you really have no duty to get vaccinated. The main benefit is to you, the main thing to consider is yourself. If you’re vaccinated you can still spread it. It makes no difference. Social duty is about acting how you hope others will act. If noone had the vaccine how would society be right now? You benefit from others having the vaccine so you do have a social dury - it is actually immoral, deontologically and teleologically, to not get the vaccine if you are offered it. Really not much evidence of that being true but anyway, do you believe people have a social duty to maintain a healthy bodyweight? Well...if you don't believe in Kantian deontology why are you concerned with duty at all? You must be an ethical teleologist - in which case there is no duty and the only ethical consideration is the consequences. Luckily in this case, both schools of thought say the same thing- getting vaccinated is the only moral course of action " There's so many false premises in this that I'm embarrassed for you. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Another fat shaming thread
Only you and one other have mentioned the word fat. Why are you using that word?
The thread is about taking possible action of the things we have control over to help minimise the impact of covid on the individual and the NHS.
It has been mentioned some people will have medical reasons that prevent them from being healthier or losing weight.
It is remarks like the one you made that dilute reasonable discussion and actually bring the "shame" element into a discussion where it was not needed.
Why does it bring shame on the thread?
By trying to twist the discussion to one of shaming. It wasn't part of the discussion until you threw it in there.
The initial post highlights overweight people as a root cause.
Would overweight shaming been more suitable?
If you go to your doctor for a medical and they advise you it would be in your best interest to lose weight, would you accuse them of fat shaming?
The post is saying should people if they can, manage their weight to better deal with the implications of covid, as you would do by wearing a mask, or having a vaccine. The emphasis is on if you can, not you should....
Doctor would ask more in-depth questions these days to get to the root of the problem.
Then ask if you would like help from another professional first.
That is what would be expected. However they would not take kindly to being called a fat shamer when they mentioned weight problems.
This thread is not about those that can't lose weight "Ok So I can't take the discussion where I want to ...ok | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Not sure if anyone on this thread understands the mental battle to over come weight. The social duty wording, comes across as adding more pressure.... How would you feel if Michael Gove said you were selfish? How about if there were countries banning you from entering supermarkets, or losing your job over it. Or people routinely bleating that you should be denied NHS treatment if you need it. How would that make you feel? Belittled, because like I said - nobody is thinking about discussing the mental side of eaters! Do you think the issue with larger people lies somewhere else? I'd love to read it! Without nastiness! I’m not sure where you are going with this? Some people don’t want to be vaccinated but they are vindicated for it. Some people choose to be vaccinated but then take no excersise, eat very unhealthy and so therefore are over weight and risk putting themselves in hospital with covid? Should they not be vindicated too??? Where am I going with it... The social duty wording I have a problem with - it gives a feel of pressure or shaming as one has expressed. I'm saying give folk the mental help first without the pressure feel of words and help them over come their weight issue first. This thread is making it sound easy to lose weight! Good for you if you can motivate and feed yourself great food! Lots in the world don't have the mental means and drive.... I'm asking if anyone has ideas how to help those..... we could stop them going to pubs, restaurants, night clubs, sporting events, concerts, not let them have certain jobs till they lose weight that would be a good incentive oh wait but that would be wrong and a form of discrimination. " Thanks | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It’s being “normalised” through propaganda. It’s now seen as acceptable to slate people for not wanting a vaccine. Incredibly, the most brazen of these actually believe they’re really “doing something for the cause”. They virtue signal about how they’re “doing their bit”. They label people as anti vax even if they’ve had tons of vaccines. Anything to label, to group people and to criticise. It’s incredible watching this unfold. And they really truly think they’re the “good” ones." To my knowledge it's also the only vaccine that people are being told to take, even if they've recovered from the disease. Normally, you would be advised against taking a vaccine for a disease you'd already had. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It’s being “normalised” through propaganda. It’s now seen as acceptable to slate people for not wanting a vaccine. Incredibly, the most brazen of these actually believe they’re really “doing something for the cause”. They virtue signal about how they’re “doing their bit”. They label people as anti vax even if they’ve had tons of vaccines. Anything to label, to group people and to criticise. It’s incredible watching this unfold. And they really truly think they’re the “good” ones. To my knowledge it's also the only vaccine that people are being told to take, even if they've recovered from the disease. Normally, you would be advised against taking a vaccine for a disease you'd already had. " Correct. Natural immunity counts for nothing. Apparently…. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Nope. Being fat is not catching getting covid while fat is a risk though vaccinated or unvaccinated and either way a person is a risk of catching it. So if we expect everyone to be vaccinated or face extra restrictions we should expect everyone to be as healthy as possible or face restrictions. " Hmmm | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It’s being “normalised” through propaganda. It’s now seen as acceptable to slate people for not wanting a vaccine. Incredibly, the most brazen of these actually believe they’re really “doing something for the cause”. They virtue signal about how they’re “doing their bit”. They label people as anti vax even if they’ve had tons of vaccines. Anything to label, to group people and to criticise. It’s incredible watching this unfold. And they really truly think they’re the “good” ones." We are the good ones. Anyone not getting the vaccine is benefitting from other people but exercising no civic responsibility bu refusing. It is about 10% of tje adult population and it is really sad that they consider their concerns legitimate as it simply isn't the case that there is any mechanism by which this vaccine can do long term harm and the risk of short term consequences is so small and causally most of the rumoured risks are not even necessarily related. The fact anti-vaxers see themselves as only not anti-vax as they are only against this vaccine is laughable because this vaccine is proven to be as safe as it gets. Get vaccinated. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
It’ll be interesting to see in a few years from now the studies that correlate countries death figures with obesity rates…. Are the countries with the highest death rates also the ones with the highest obesity rates? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Nope. Being fat is not catching " This. And it's often caused or exacerbated by other medical conditions. If the diet industry actually worked, there'd be no diet industry. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It’s being “normalised” through propaganda. It’s now seen as acceptable to slate people for not wanting a vaccine. Incredibly, the most brazen of these actually believe they’re really “doing something for the cause”. They virtue signal about how they’re “doing their bit”. They label people as anti vax even if they’ve had tons of vaccines. Anything to label, to group people and to criticise. It’s incredible watching this unfold. And they really truly think they’re the “good” ones. To my knowledge it's also the only vaccine that people are being told to take, even if they've recovered from the disease. Normally, you would be advised against taking a vaccine for a disease you'd already had. " Flu. And people who work in hospitals often are required to take boosters for various vaccines. It's a virus. It mutates. We have no natural immunity to it because it's new. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Another fat shaming thread
Only you and one other have mentioned the word fat. Why are you using that word?
The thread is about taking possible action of the things we have control over to help minimise the impact of covid on the individual and the NHS.
It has been mentioned some people will have medical reasons that prevent them from being healthier or losing weight.
It is remarks like the one you made that dilute reasonable discussion and actually bring the "shame" element into a discussion where it was not needed.
Why does it bring shame on the thread?
By trying to twist the discussion to one of shaming. It wasn't part of the discussion until you threw it in there.
The initial post highlights overweight people as a root cause.
Would overweight shaming been more suitable?
If you go to your doctor for a medical and they advise you it would be in your best interest to lose weight, would you accuse them of fat shaming?
The post is saying should people if they can, manage their weight to better deal with the implications of covid, as you would do by wearing a mask, or having a vaccine. The emphasis is on if you can, not you should....
Doctor would ask more in-depth questions these days to get to the root of the problem.
Then ask if you would like help from another professional first.
That is what would be expected. However they would not take kindly to being called a fat shamer when they mentioned weight problems.
This thread is not about those that can't lose weight
Ok
So I can't take the discussion where I want to ...ok "I may not have worded that in the best way as it was not meant to shut you down. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It’s being “normalised” through propaganda. It’s now seen as acceptable to slate people for not wanting a vaccine. Incredibly, the most brazen of these actually believe they’re really “doing something for the cause”. They virtue signal about how they’re “doing their bit”. They label people as anti vax even if they’ve had tons of vaccines. Anything to label, to group people and to criticise. It’s incredible watching this unfold. And they really truly think they’re the “good” ones. To my knowledge it's also the only vaccine that people are being told to take, even if they've recovered from the disease. Normally, you would be advised against taking a vaccine for a disease you'd already had. Flu. And people who work in hospitals often are required to take boosters for various vaccines. It's a virus. It mutates. We have no natural immunity to it because it's new. " I do have natural immunity thanks and I've never had a flu vaccine either so stop being disingenuous | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It’s being “normalised” through propaganda. It’s now seen as acceptable to slate people for not wanting a vaccine. Incredibly, the most brazen of these actually believe they’re really “doing something for the cause”. They virtue signal about how they’re “doing their bit”. They label people as anti vax even if they’ve had tons of vaccines. Anything to label, to group people and to criticise. It’s incredible watching this unfold. And they really truly think they’re the “good” ones. We are the good ones. Anyone not getting the vaccine is benefitting from other people but exercising no civic responsibility bu refusing. It is about 10% of tje adult population and it is really sad that they consider their concerns legitimate as it simply isn't the case that there is any mechanism by which this vaccine can do long term harm and the risk of short term consequences is so small and causally most of the rumoured risks are not even necessarily related. The fact anti-vaxers see themselves as only not anti-vax as they are only against this vaccine is laughable because this vaccine is proven to be as safe as it gets. Get vaccinated." At least 3 statements in there are absolutely false, but putting them to one side. Why do you expect anyone with natural immunity, which we know is vastly superior, to take any degree of risk for a vaccine that doesn't prevent transmission? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? Most unvaccinated people are not going to die from getting infected. The argument is that if they require treatment, they are straining the NHS from someone who needs it's more. Likewise, obesity is linked so many health problems that obese people strain the NHS. There's a strong push for people to get vaccinated but no push telling overweight people to lose it. Nor do very many of them seem inclined to, despite constantly protesting about how important their health is. " Because they need the extra help to get them on the right track... Oh I wasn't far off this thread after all.... Only sounds like overweight folk in these hospital beds too covid or not! On the other side of this 'discussion' is those who are underweight, with an immune system as poor as an overweight person. You seem pretty knowledgeable OP further on with your thread! I think you could of put a more balanced post together without shaming one side! Hope you're getting your vitamins!  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It’s being “normalised” through propaganda. It’s now seen as acceptable to slate people for not wanting a vaccine. Incredibly, the most brazen of these actually believe they’re really “doing something for the cause”. They virtue signal about how they’re “doing their bit”. They label people as anti vax even if they’ve had tons of vaccines. Anything to label, to group people and to criticise. It’s incredible watching this unfold. And they really truly think they’re the “good” ones. To my knowledge it's also the only vaccine that people are being told to take, even if they've recovered from the disease. Normally, you would be advised against taking a vaccine for a disease you'd already had. Flu. And people who work in hospitals often are required to take boosters for various vaccines. It's a virus. It mutates. We have no natural immunity to it because it's new. I do have natural immunity thanks and I've never had a flu vaccine either so stop being disingenuous "No you clearly don't know what national immunity is No point engaging with you. FYI I've blocked you and any response in the forums is a breach of rules | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It’s being “normalised” through propaganda. It’s now seen as acceptable to slate people for not wanting a vaccine. Incredibly, the most brazen of these actually believe they’re really “doing something for the cause”. They virtue signal about how they’re “doing their bit”. They label people as anti vax even if they’ve had tons of vaccines. Anything to label, to group people and to criticise. It’s incredible watching this unfold. And they really truly think they’re the “good” ones. We are the good ones. Anyone not getting the vaccine is benefitting from other people but exercising no civic responsibility bu refusing. It is about 10% of tje adult population and it is really sad that they consider their concerns legitimate as it simply isn't the case that there is any mechanism by which this vaccine can do long term harm and the risk of short term consequences is so small and causally most of the rumoured risks are not even necessarily related. The fact anti-vaxers see themselves as only not anti-vax as they are only against this vaccine is laughable because this vaccine is proven to be as safe as it gets. Get vaccinated." Nope, you’re not the good ones. You’re telling people to make a decision that is not your business. You’re feeding the division. Your comment about anti vaxxers is absurd, and highlights my point about labelling everyone who doesn’t want this vaccine, despite the fact most are pro vax in general. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? Most unvaccinated people are not going to die from getting infected. The argument is that if they require treatment, they are straining the NHS from someone who needs it's more. Likewise, obesity is linked so many health problems that obese people strain the NHS. There's a strong push for people to get vaccinated but no push telling overweight people to lose it. Nor do very many of them seem inclined to, despite constantly protesting about how important their health is. Because they need the extra help to get them on the right track... Oh I wasn't far off this thread after all.... Only sounds like overweight folk in these hospital beds too covid or not! On the other side of this 'discussion' is those who are underweight, with an immune system as poor as an overweight person. You seem pretty knowledgeable OP further on with your thread! I think you could of put a more balanced post together without shaming one side! Hope you're getting your vitamins! "I'm not shaming anyone. I don't believe you have a social duty to get vaccinated or live at a healthy weight. To me, it's in the same boat as smoking, I don't think it's a good idea to smoke and the health consequences are medical fact. But I don't go around telling people they have to quit and certainly not for my benefit. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? Most unvaccinated people are not going to die from getting infected. The argument is that if they require treatment, they are straining the NHS from someone who needs it's more. Likewise, obesity is linked so many health problems that obese people strain the NHS. There's a strong push for people to get vaccinated but no push telling overweight people to lose it. Nor do very many of them seem inclined to, despite constantly protesting about how important their health is. Because they need the extra help to get them on the right track... Oh I wasn't far off this thread after all.... Only sounds like overweight folk in these hospital beds too covid or not! On the other side of this 'discussion' is those who are underweight, with an immune system as poor as an overweight person. You seem pretty knowledgeable OP further on with your thread! I think you could of put a more balanced post together without shaming one side! Hope you're getting your vitamins!
I'm not shaming anyone. I don't believe you have a social duty to get vaccinated or live at a healthy weight. To me, it's in the same boat as smoking, I don't think it's a good idea to smoke and the health consequences are medical fact. But I don't go around telling people they have to quit and certainly not for my benefit. "Spot on. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It’s being “normalised” through propaganda. It’s now seen as acceptable to slate people for not wanting a vaccine. Incredibly, the most brazen of these actually believe they’re really “doing something for the cause”. They virtue signal about how they’re “doing their bit”. They label people as anti vax even if they’ve had tons of vaccines. Anything to label, to group people and to criticise. It’s incredible watching this unfold. And they really truly think they’re the “good” ones. To my knowledge it's also the only vaccine that people are being told to take, even if they've recovered from the disease. Normally, you would be advised against taking a vaccine for a disease you'd already had. Flu. And people who work in hospitals often are required to take boosters for various vaccines. It's a virus. It mutates. We have no natural immunity to it because it's new. I do have natural immunity thanks and I've never had a flu vaccine either so stop being disingenuous
No you clearly don't know what national immunity is
No point engaging with you. FYI I've blocked you and any response in the forums is a breach of rules "Again, anti-science from the militant ideologues. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? Most unvaccinated people are not going to die from getting infected. The argument is that if they require treatment, they are straining the NHS from someone who needs it's more. Likewise, obesity is linked so many health problems that obese people strain the NHS. There's a strong push for people to get vaccinated but no push telling overweight people to lose it. Nor do very many of them seem inclined to, despite constantly protesting about how important their health is. Because they need the extra help to get them on the right track... Oh I wasn't far off this thread after all.... Only sounds like overweight folk in these hospital beds too covid or not! On the other side of this 'discussion' is those who are underweight, with an immune system as poor as an overweight person. You seem pretty knowledgeable OP further on with your thread! I think you could of put a more balanced post together without shaming one side! Hope you're getting your vitamins!
I'm not shaming anyone. I don't believe you have a social duty to get vaccinated or live at a healthy weight. To me, it's in the same boat as smoking, I don't think it's a good idea to smoke and the health consequences are medical fact. But I don't go around telling people they have to quit and certainly not for my benefit. "You don't have to believe it. It is a categorical imperative to get the vaccine - as close to a moral fact as you can get - it is a violation of the very idea of social responsibility. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It’s being “normalised” through propaganda. It’s now seen as acceptable to slate people for not wanting a vaccine. Incredibly, the most brazen of these actually believe they’re really “doing something for the cause”. They virtue signal about how they’re “doing their bit”. They label people as anti vax even if they’ve had tons of vaccines. Anything to label, to group people and to criticise. It’s incredible watching this unfold. And they really truly think they’re the “good” ones. To my knowledge it's also the only vaccine that people are being told to take, even if they've recovered from the disease. Normally, you would be advised against taking a vaccine for a disease you'd already had. Flu. And people who work in hospitals often are required to take boosters for various vaccines. It's a virus. It mutates. We have no natural immunity to it because it's new. I do have natural immunity thanks and I've never had a flu vaccine either so stop being disingenuous
No you clearly don't know what national immunity is
No point engaging with you. FYI I've blocked you and any response in the forums is a breach of rules "Interesting way to have the last word. Not sure that is how honest, open debate should be conducted but as long as you are happy about how it makes you look, you stay strong. I am however curious to know what "national immunity" is. Pardon my ignorance on this one. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? Most unvaccinated people are not going to die from getting infected. The argument is that if they require treatment, they are straining the NHS from someone who needs it's more. Likewise, obesity is linked so many health problems that obese people strain the NHS. There's a strong push for people to get vaccinated but no push telling overweight people to lose it. Nor do very many of them seem inclined to, despite constantly protesting about how important their health is. Because they need the extra help to get them on the right track... Oh I wasn't far off this thread after all.... Only sounds like overweight folk in these hospital beds too covid or not! On the other side of this 'discussion' is those who are underweight, with an immune system as poor as an overweight person. You seem pretty knowledgeable OP further on with your thread! I think you could of put a more balanced post together without shaming one side! Hope you're getting your vitamins!
I'm not shaming anyone. I don't believe you have a social duty to get vaccinated or live at a healthy weight. To me, it's in the same boat as smoking, I don't think it's a good idea to smoke and the health consequences are medical fact. But I don't go around telling people they have to quit and certainly not for my benefit.
You don't have to believe it. It is a categorical imperative to get the vaccine - as close to a moral fact as you can get - it is a violation of the very idea of social responsibility. "Actually the science is crystal clear than my natural immunity is vastly superior to your short lived vaccine induced immunity. Perhaps the moral duty is on you to get naturally infected to bring your protection up to the level of mine. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? Most unvaccinated people are not going to die from getting infected. The argument is that if they require treatment, they are straining the NHS from someone who needs it's more. Likewise, obesity is linked so many health problems that obese people strain the NHS. There's a strong push for people to get vaccinated but no push telling overweight people to lose it. Nor do very many of them seem inclined to, despite constantly protesting about how important their health is. Because they need the extra help to get them on the right track... Oh I wasn't far off this thread after all.... Only sounds like overweight folk in these hospital beds too covid or not! On the other side of this 'discussion' is those who are underweight, with an immune system as poor as an overweight person. You seem pretty knowledgeable OP further on with your thread! I think you could of put a more balanced post together without shaming one side! Hope you're getting your vitamins!
I'm not shaming anyone. I don't believe you have a social duty to get vaccinated or live at a healthy weight. To me, it's in the same boat as smoking, I don't think it's a good idea to smoke and the health consequences are medical fact. But I don't go around telling people they have to quit and certainly not for my benefit. "Ohhh You aren't one of the many then as wrote in your post! 
You've just attracted some of the others that are.....
Got it now!
Interesting insight though!
Good thread | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? Most unvaccinated people are not going to die from getting infected. The argument is that if they require treatment, they are straining the NHS from someone who needs it's more. Likewise, obesity is linked so many health problems that obese people strain the NHS. There's a strong push for people to get vaccinated but no push telling overweight people to lose it. Nor do very many of them seem inclined to, despite constantly protesting about how important their health is. Because they need the extra help to get them on the right track... Oh I wasn't far off this thread after all.... Only sounds like overweight folk in these hospital beds too covid or not! On the other side of this 'discussion' is those who are underweight, with an immune system as poor as an overweight person. You seem pretty knowledgeable OP further on with your thread! I think you could of put a more balanced post together without shaming one side! Hope you're getting your vitamins!
I'm not shaming anyone. I don't believe you have a social duty to get vaccinated or live at a healthy weight. To me, it's in the same boat as smoking, I don't think it's a good idea to smoke and the health consequences are medical fact. But I don't go around telling people they have to quit and certainly not for my benefit.
You don't have to believe it. It is a categorical imperative to get the vaccine - as close to a moral fact as you can get - it is a violation of the very idea of social responsibility.
Actually the science is crystal clear than my natural immunity is vastly superior to your short lived vaccine induced immunity. Perhaps the moral duty is on you to get naturally infected to bring your protection up to the level of mine. "On the contrary - vaccine immunity is more likely to extend across known strains but acquired immunity more likely to be strain specific. The best protection is actually to have had covid and then to have had the vaccine some time after | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? Most unvaccinated people are not going to die from getting infected. The argument is that if they require treatment, they are straining the NHS from someone who needs it's more. Likewise, obesity is linked so many health problems that obese people strain the NHS. There's a strong push for people to get vaccinated but no push telling overweight people to lose it. Nor do very many of them seem inclined to, despite constantly protesting about how important their health is. Because they need the extra help to get them on the right track... Oh I wasn't far off this thread after all.... Only sounds like overweight folk in these hospital beds too covid or not! On the other side of this 'discussion' is those who are underweight, with an immune system as poor as an overweight person. You seem pretty knowledgeable OP further on with your thread! I think you could of put a more balanced post together without shaming one side! Hope you're getting your vitamins!
I'm not shaming anyone. I don't believe you have a social duty to get vaccinated or live at a healthy weight. To me, it's in the same boat as smoking, I don't think it's a good idea to smoke and the health consequences are medical fact. But I don't go around telling people they have to quit and certainly not for my benefit.
You don't have to believe it. It is a categorical imperative to get the vaccine - as close to a moral fact as you can get - it is a violation of the very idea of social responsibility.
Actually the science is crystal clear than my natural immunity is vastly superior to your short lived vaccine induced immunity. Perhaps the moral duty is on you to get naturally infected to bring your protection up to the level of mine.
On the contrary - vaccine immunity is more likely to extend across known strains but acquired immunity more likely to be strain specific. The best protection is actually to have had covid and then to have had the vaccine some time after "Simply not true. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"100% yes OP. I think everyone who's poor life choices that, whether directly or indirectly, negatively affect large numbers of other people should feel bad. How does individual obesity harm large numbers of people? Most unvaccinated people are not going to die from getting infected. The argument is that if they require treatment, they are straining the NHS from someone who needs it's more. Likewise, obesity is linked so many health problems that obese people strain the NHS. There's a strong push for people to get vaccinated but no push telling overweight people to lose it. Nor do very many of them seem inclined to, despite constantly protesting about how important their health is. Because they need the extra help to get them on the right track... Oh I wasn't far off this thread after all.... Only sounds like overweight folk in these hospital beds too covid or not! On the other side of this 'discussion' is those who are underweight, with an immune system as poor as an overweight person. You seem pretty knowledgeable OP further on with your thread! I think you could of put a more balanced post together without shaming one side! Hope you're getting your vitamins!
I'm not shaming anyone. I don't believe you have a social duty to get vaccinated or live at a healthy weight. To me, it's in the same boat as smoking, I don't think it's a good idea to smoke and the health consequences are medical fact. But I don't go around telling people they have to quit and certainly not for my benefit.
You don't have to believe it. It is a categorical imperative to get the vaccine - as close to a moral fact as you can get - it is a violation of the very idea of social responsibility. "Is there such a thing as a moral fact? Your statement would appear to confirm that there isn't. When did this site get so deep? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It’s being “normalised” through propaganda. It’s now seen as acceptable to slate people for not wanting a vaccine. Incredibly, the most brazen of these actually believe they’re really “doing something for the cause”. They virtue signal about how they’re “doing their bit”. They label people as anti vax even if they’ve had tons of vaccines. Anything to label, to group people and to criticise. It’s incredible watching this unfold. And they really truly think they’re the “good” ones. To my knowledge it's also the only vaccine that people are being told to take, even if they've recovered from the disease. Normally, you would be advised against taking a vaccine for a disease you'd already had. Flu. And people who work in hospitals often are required to take boosters for various vaccines. It's a virus. It mutates. We have no natural immunity to it because it's new. I do have natural immunity thanks and I've never had a flu vaccine either so stop being disingenuous
No you clearly don't know what national immunity is
No point engaging with you. FYI I've blocked you and any response in the forums is a breach of rules "That isn't quite right, sometimes people wouldn't even know they were blocked For info, anyone can answer any post on the forum whether people are blocked from each other or not. What they can't do is ask you to unblock/ ask why you have blocked them etc | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It’s being “normalised” through propaganda. It’s now seen as acceptable to slate people for not wanting a vaccine. Incredibly, the most brazen of these actually believe they’re really “doing something for the cause”. They virtue signal about how they’re “doing their bit”. They label people as anti vax even if they’ve had tons of vaccines. Anything to label, to group people and to criticise. It’s incredible watching this unfold. And they really truly think they’re the “good” ones. To my knowledge it's also the only vaccine that people are being told to take, even if they've recovered from the disease. Normally, you would be advised against taking a vaccine for a disease you'd already had. Flu. And people who work in hospitals often are required to take boosters for various vaccines. It's a virus. It mutates. We have no natural immunity to it because it's new. I do have natural immunity thanks and I've never had a flu vaccine either so stop being disingenuous
No you clearly don't know what national immunity is
No point engaging with you. FYI I've blocked you and any response in the forums is a breach of rules
That isn't quite right, sometimes people wouldn't even know they were blocked
For info, anyone can answer any post on the forum whether people are blocked from each other or not. What they can't do is ask you to unblock/ ask why you have blocked them etc
"That cannot be true because I've personally been banned for unknowingly resounding in the forums to someone who blocked me. Definitely one rule for some here. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It’s being “normalised” through propaganda. It’s now seen as acceptable to slate people for not wanting a vaccine. Incredibly, the most brazen of these actually believe they’re really “doing something for the cause”. They virtue signal about how they’re “doing their bit”. They label people as anti vax even if they’ve had tons of vaccines. Anything to label, to group people and to criticise. It’s incredible watching this unfold. And they really truly think they’re the “good” ones. To my knowledge it's also the only vaccine that people are being told to take, even if they've recovered from the disease. Normally, you would be advised against taking a vaccine for a disease you'd already had. Flu. And people who work in hospitals often are required to take boosters for various vaccines. It's a virus. It mutates. We have no natural immunity to it because it's new. I do have natural immunity thanks and I've never had a flu vaccine either so stop being disingenuous
No you clearly don't know what national immunity is
No point engaging with you. FYI I've blocked you and any response in the forums is a breach of rules
That isn't quite right, sometimes people wouldn't even know they were blocked
For info, anyone can answer any post on the forum whether people are blocked from each other or not. What they can't do is ask you to unblock/ ask why you have blocked them etc
That cannot be true because I've personally been banned for unknowingly resounding in the forums to someone who blocked me.
Definitely one rule for some here."You were probably reported by the person who had blocked you, stating that you were using the forum to circumvent a block. Unfortunately there is no "right to reply" to moderation on the forums, so if you get a ban... you get a ban. Cal | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It’s being “normalised” through propaganda. It’s now seen as acceptable to slate people for not wanting a vaccine. Incredibly, the most brazen of these actually believe they’re really “doing something for the cause”. They virtue signal about how they’re “doing their bit”. They label people as anti vax even if they’ve had tons of vaccines. Anything to label, to group people and to criticise. It’s incredible watching this unfold. And they really truly think they’re the “good” ones." aint that the truth,double jabbed here but didnt do it to do my bit had it because was led to belive if i got jabbed twice that was it,was obviously lied to about that,if u want the jab get it if u dont want it dont get it,personaly i think the vaccine cheerleaders trying to shame people are just as bad as anti vaxxers telling people not to take it,most other people are jyst making there own minds up thats the way it should be | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It’s being “normalised” through propaganda. It’s now seen as acceptable to slate people for not wanting a vaccine. Incredibly, the most brazen of these actually believe they’re really “doing something for the cause”. They virtue signal about how they’re “doing their bit”. They label people as anti vax even if they’ve had tons of vaccines. Anything to label, to group people and to criticise. It’s incredible watching this unfold. And they really truly think they’re the “good” ones. To my knowledge it's also the only vaccine that people are being told to take, even if they've recovered from the disease. Normally, you would be advised against taking a vaccine for a disease you'd already had. Flu. And people who work in hospitals often are required to take boosters for various vaccines. It's a virus. It mutates. We have no natural immunity to it because it's new. I do have natural immunity thanks and I've never had a flu vaccine either so stop being disingenuous
No you clearly don't know what national immunity is
No point engaging with you. FYI I've blocked you and any response in the forums is a breach of rules
That isn't quite right, sometimes people wouldn't even know they were blocked
For info, anyone can answer any post on the forum whether people are blocked from each other or not. What they can't do is ask you to unblock/ ask why you have blocked them etc
That cannot be true because I've personally been banned for unknowingly resounding in the forums to someone who blocked me.
Definitely one rule for some here."You haven't Saying something on the lines of "you have blocked me" on the forum is against rules and is not the same as answering a persons post | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" You were probably reported by the person who had blocked you, stating that you were using the forum to circumvent a block. Unfortunately there is no "right to reply" to moderation on the forums, so if you get a ban... you get a ban. Cal" As explained, that would not get a person a ban. The issue seems to be people not understanding the rule rather than people being wrongly banned. I think people have been here long enough to see posts saying if you don't agree with a ban people can ask for it to be reviewed , if you have not noticed any posts , it is on the forum rules. https://www.fabswingers.com/content/forum-rules The mods and site admin are all volunteers who try and keep the site safe. If you think they've made a specific mistake (and we accept that mistakes or mis-judgements do happen), the forum isn't the place to discuss it. Please contact Admin directly and we'll review and make right. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I’m fat that only affects me. Me not being vaccinated affects others especially those who can’t be vaccinated. Yes I can still get and spread it but only at a lesser form. Vaccinations help fight covid As a mother of a baby I detest anti vaxers. People have short memory’s - have a look back at history of polio wards for example or recent history people being against the mmr vaccine which then meant those children under 1 who could not have it were being put at risk and dying " so again this is completely the wrong way to look at things hey I couldn’t care less of people are vaxxed or in vaxxed that is there choice and they should be allowed to make it. The point here is that over weight people stand much more chance of needing hospital treatment if they catch covid vaccinated or not which puts pressure on the NHS which impacts us all. So the point was that unless you tell people they need to lose weight you can’t tell people they need to be vaccinated, treat every one the same or start imposing restrictions on everyone. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I’m fat that only affects me. Me not being vaccinated affects others especially those who can’t be vaccinated. Yes I can still get and spread it but only at a lesser form. Vaccinations help fight covid As a mother of a baby I detest anti vaxers. People have short memory’s - have a look back at history of polio wards for example or recent history people being against the mmr vaccine which then meant those children under 1 who could not have it were being put at risk and dying " also the term anti vaxxers should not be used. Not everyone who does not / can not take the vaccine is anti vaccination. Using this term is as bad a racism right now. Stop trying to segregate society just allow people to get on with their lives vaccinated or unvaccinated | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I’m fat that only affects me. Me not being vaccinated affects others especially those who can’t be vaccinated. Yes I can still get and spread it but only at a lesser form. Vaccinations help fight covid As a mother of a baby I detest anti vaxers. People have short memory’s - have a look back at history of polio wards for example or recent history people being against the mmr vaccine which then meant those children under 1 who could not have it were being put at risk and dying also the term anti vaxxers should not be used. Not everyone who does not / can not take the vaccine is anti vaccination. Using this term is as bad a racism right now. Stop trying to segregate society just allow people to get on with their lives vaccinated or unvaccinated " People who don't vaccinate create their own biological differences to those who have been, unlike the revolting incorrect, prejudiced beliefs within racism. We should do our best to let people 'get on with their lives', as safely and healthily as possible. We have either restrictions or vaccines that can achieve this. It's no comfort for people waiting for health treatments, who are in the enormous queue, to see the NHS have to deal with preventable Covid serious illness and deaths instead. That especially is stopping us 'getting on with' living. There's a hardline antivax movement that's against vaccines overall, that's been behind the Covid antivax drive. Many people have been helping them to earn $millions during the pandemic, as the antivax movement has swollen. We don't need to reinvent the wheel, to rebadge them into a more palatable brand etc. Others, who are ignorant of the science, have joined them. Like most social aspects, there's a broad church. Those who are honestly hesitant, in the same way that they might be about starting hypertension or other medical treatments etc, are distinctly different though. For now, we're needing to reduce the current and potential inflated burdens on the NHS and our country, as we head into winter. We should be pursuing multiple routes to reduce infection and illness levels, as the pandemic is very much still a serious problem. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I’m fat that only affects me. Me not being vaccinated affects others especially those who can’t be vaccinated. Yes I can still get and spread it but only at a lesser form. Vaccinations help fight covid As a mother of a baby I detest anti vaxers. People have short memory’s - have a look back at history of polio wards for example or recent history people being against the mmr vaccine which then meant those children under 1 who could not have it were being put at risk and dying also the term anti vaxxers should not be used. Not everyone who does not / can not take the vaccine is anti vaccination. Using this term is as bad a racism right now. Stop trying to segregate society just allow people to get on with their lives vaccinated or unvaccinated People who don't vaccinate create their own biological differences to those who have been, unlike the revolting incorrect, prejudiced beliefs within racism. We should do our best to let people 'get on with their lives', as safely and healthily as possible. We have either restrictions or vaccines that can achieve this. It's no comfort for people waiting for health treatments, who are in the enormous queue, to see the NHS have to deal with preventable Covid serious illness and deaths instead. That especially is stopping us 'getting on with' living. There's a hardline antivax movement that's against vaccines overall, that's been behind the Covid antivax drive. Many people have been helping them to earn $millions during the pandemic, as the antivax movement has swollen. We don't need to reinvent the wheel, to rebadge them into a more palatable brand etc. Others, who are ignorant of the science, have joined them. Like most social aspects, there's a broad church. Those who are honestly hesitant, in the same way that they might be about starting hypertension or other medical treatments etc, are distinctly different though. For now, we're needing to reduce the current and potential inflated burdens on the NHS and our country, as we head into winter. We should be pursuing multiple routes to reduce infection and illness levels, as the pandemic is very much still a serious problem. " racism is not just about colour it’s also about beliefs and differences so demonising a section of society for not wanting to take a vaccine for what ever reason is the same I’m very sorry but it is. My choice is my choice it’s as simple as that I don’t care what others do or believe but none of that should subject me to the anger / hatred / beliefs of others or the loss of my freedoms. If a unvaccinated person is a risk ( remember it’s now a very small % of people ) of bringing down the NHS then so are those who choose to not stay fit and healthy | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I’m fat that only affects me. Me not being vaccinated affects others especially those who can’t be vaccinated. Yes I can still get and spread it but only at a lesser form. Vaccinations help fight covid As a mother of a baby I detest anti vaxers. People have short memory’s - have a look back at history of polio wards for example or recent history people being against the mmr vaccine which then meant those children under 1 who could not have it were being put at risk and dying also the term anti vaxxers should not be used. Not everyone who does not / can not take the vaccine is anti vaccination. Using this term is as bad a racism right now. Stop trying to segregate society just allow people to get on with their lives vaccinated or unvaccinated People who don't vaccinate create their own biological differences to those who have been, unlike the revolting incorrect, prejudiced beliefs within racism. We should do our best to let people 'get on with their lives', as safely and healthily as possible. We have either restrictions or vaccines that can achieve this. It's no comfort for people waiting for health treatments, who are in the enormous queue, to see the NHS have to deal with preventable Covid serious illness and deaths instead. That especially is stopping us 'getting on with' living. There's a hardline antivax movement that's against vaccines overall, that's been behind the Covid antivax drive. Many people have been helping them to earn $millions during the pandemic, as the antivax movement has swollen. We don't need to reinvent the wheel, to rebadge them into a more palatable brand etc. Others, who are ignorant of the science, have joined them. Like most social aspects, there's a broad church. Those who are honestly hesitant, in the same way that they might be about starting hypertension or other medical treatments etc, are distinctly different though. For now, we're needing to reduce the current and potential inflated burdens on the NHS and our country, as we head into winter. We should be pursuing multiple routes to reduce infection and illness levels, as the pandemic is very much still a serious problem. racism is not just about colour it’s also about beliefs and differences so demonising a section of society for not wanting to take a vaccine for what ever reason is the same I’m very sorry but it is. My choice is my choice it’s as simple as that I don’t care what others do or believe but none of that should subject me to the anger / hatred / beliefs of others or the loss of my freedoms. If a unvaccinated person is a risk ( remember it’s now a very small % of people ) of bringing down the NHS then so are those who choose to not stay fit and healthy " False equivalency in fallacy terms - racism is discrimination based upon racial characteristics - these could be cultural or ethnicity based but the distinguishing feature is that people are born into their cultures and their skin and to be treated prejudicially and discriminated against for an accident of birth is morally wrong. Being a bit thick and not understanding why the vaccines are safe is not the same thing | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I’m fat that only affects me. Me not being vaccinated affects others especially those who can’t be vaccinated. Yes I can still get and spread it but only at a lesser form. Vaccinations help fight covid As a mother of a baby I detest anti vaxers. People have short memory’s - have a look back at history of polio wards for example or recent history people being against the mmr vaccine which then meant those children under 1 who could not have it were being put at risk and dying also the term anti vaxxers should not be used. Not everyone who does not / can not take the vaccine is anti vaccination. Using this term is as bad a racism right now. Stop trying to segregate society just allow people to get on with their lives vaccinated or unvaccinated " The unvaccinated can only get on with their lives thanks to the vaccinated. It is morally repugnant to operate on such a hypocritical basis. And anti-vax is the right term because those who are covid vaccine opponents are wildly and wilfully misinformed and are a danger to everyone around them | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Social duty? Maybe if you want to be part of mainstream society... Not everyone does.. And that's their choice. " "That's their choice" doesn't absolve someone of moral responsibility to their community in civil society. It is a totally redundant statement in fact. Of course it is their choice - but it isn't ethical during a pandemic to refuse to help the community. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Vaccine reduces likelihood of catching and spreading it. Things which will do more to spread Covid include going to pubs/cafes/restaurants, going to the gym, going to night clubs, going to swinging clubs, going to gigs, etc. If you think people are obligated to lose weight in order to stop the spread of Covid, you should be rational. All of those places should first be closed as public health hazards. Anyone who tries to overcome this should be prosecuted for prolonging the pandemic. I of course do not approve of this course of action, but it's a fuckton more evidence based than fat shaming. While we're at it, should we demand that everyone over 40 un old themselves? Massive risk for Covid" Let me know how that unolding works, would pay good money. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
But remember there is no money for big pharma in healthy people | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Social duty? Maybe if you want to be part of mainstream society... Not everyone does.. And that's their choice. "That's their choice" doesn't absolve someone of moral responsibility to their community in civil society. It is a totally redundant statement in fact. Of course it is their choice - but it isn't ethical during a pandemic to refuse to help the community." It isn't ethical to hand over all civil liberties to medical dictatorship, but here we are. I never stopped "getting on with my life" I strongly suspect the fiercely pro-vaxx crowd are the same as the lockdown lovers of 2020. Maybe you'd be happier in China, just a thought. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is quite obvious by the amount of overweight people, that it isn't easy to maintain a weight close to correct/normal. If you start digging into the reasons that people are overweight then it is quite disturbing. Food choices, depression, education combined with the commercial drive to sell everybody complete shite that they call food is causing most of the problem. If that could be turned round, not only would it help with covid and diabetes etc but it would probably help the climate." I think it is very easy but it requires you to completely challenge pretty much all the mainstream assumptions you have been bombarded with since birth. If I wrote it all out, it would sound like a conspiracy theory but as you said... look around... "education" is a big part of the problem because what it teaches regarding food is frankly wrong and shaped by societal norms which have more to do with things that happened in WW2, than what's healthy. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Social duty? Maybe if you want to be part of mainstream society... Not everyone does.. And that's their choice. "That's their choice" doesn't absolve someone of moral responsibility to their community in civil society. It is a totally redundant statement in fact. Of course it is their choice - but it isn't ethical during a pandemic to refuse to help the community." what world do you live in hitler | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is quite obvious by the amount of overweight people, that it isn't easy to maintain a weight close to correct/normal. If you start digging into the reasons that people are overweight then it is quite disturbing. Food choices, depression, education combined with the commercial drive to sell everybody complete shite that they call food is causing most of the problem. If that could be turned round, not only would it help with covid and diabetes etc but it would probably help the climate."
If responsibility was firmly on the shoulders of those who have invested to sustain the status quo, as well as citizens, it would limit the ability of some herw to point the finger of blame at others. They enjoy being part of the divide and rule process, for the benefit of others | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is quite obvious by the amount of overweight people, that it isn't easy to maintain a weight close to correct/normal. If you start digging into the reasons that people are overweight then it is quite disturbing. Food choices, depression, education combined with the commercial drive to sell everybody complete shite that they call food is causing most of the problem. If that could be turned round, not only would it help with covid and diabetes etc but it would probably help the climate.
If responsibility was firmly on the shoulders of those who have invested to sustain the status quo, as well as citizens, it would limit the ability of some herw to point the finger of blame at others. They enjoy being part of the divide and rule process, for the benefit of others "It's helpful to show compassion, rather than shaming others, especially for conditions that are extremely complex as well as difficult for people to permanently resolve | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Social duty? Maybe if you want to be part of mainstream society... Not everyone does.. And that's their choice. "That's their choice" doesn't absolve someone of moral responsibility to their community in civil society. It is a totally redundant statement in fact. Of course it is their choice - but it isn't ethical during a pandemic to refuse to help the community. what world do you live in hitler " He's really far gone... | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It is quite obvious by the amount of overweight people, that it isn't easy to maintain a weight close to correct/normal. If you start digging into the reasons that people are overweight then it is quite disturbing. Food choices, depression, education combined with the commercial drive to sell everybody complete shite that they call food is causing most of the problem. If that could be turned round, not only would it help with covid and diabetes etc but it would probably help the climate." Or you could look at still significant part of the population who are not overweight, who find it actually it is pretty easy to maintain a healthy body weight.. people who take responsibility for their own health and well being and don’t just look for reasons to excuse the fact they consume 6000+ calories a day whilst barely moving a muscle. For an intelligent species we are not half stupid. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
