FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Shout-out to fellow vegan swingers!
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"Unlike a vegan, swingers don’t usually tell you they’re swingers within the first 30 seconds of meeting them." That's what the pineapple I'm always carrying around is for. | |||
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"Unlike a vegan, swingers don’t usually tell you they’re swingers within the first 30 seconds of meeting them. That's what the pineapple I'm always carrying around is for." Vegan friendly too. | |||
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"I am vegan... I find out other people are vegan by accident... Usually when we are ordering food or coffee. My experience is that generally fab is very aggressive towards vegans" Definitely my experience as well. Expect a lot of abuse. | |||
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"I'm a veggie, rather than vegan and have been for 38 years ish. I haven't added it to my bio, but will happily chat about it, if anyone wants to. It does get my goat when people choose to see it as a negative,as they do with vegans too. I don't preach to anyone about it it's my choice, just as it's others to eat meat etc. " I don’t think people do see it as a negative. I make jokes about it but I do that with most things. I think people only have a problem with the preachy types. | |||
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"If it’s for ethical reasons, I think it’s something you should be proud of but for some reason on this site people seem to despise anyone with values" I agree, whilst I do not preach about it I’m amazed at the amount of backlash against it. Tbh I was like that before I convert my own diet ![]() | |||
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"Unlike a vegan, swingers don’t usually tell you they’re swingers within the first 30 seconds of meeting them." Quite right, swingers join web sites called things like 'Fab Swingers' so that you know they're swingers *before* you meet them. Which is entirely sensible. | |||
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"If it’s for ethical reasons, I think it’s something you should be proud of but for some reason on this site people seem to despise anyone with values" Just for clarification, are you saying that non-vegans lack values? | |||
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"Unlike a vegan, swingers don’t usually tell you they’re swingers within the first 30 seconds of meeting them. Quite right, swingers join web sites called things like 'Fab Swingers' so that you know they're swingers *before* you meet them. Which is entirely sensible. " FabSwingers in general, and the Forum in particular, both seem to be full of folks who don't actually swing. Not a criticism, merely an observation. | |||
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"Unlike a vegan, swingers don’t usually tell you they’re swingers within the first 30 seconds of meeting them." ![]() | |||
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"I’ve often thought that being vegan can say a lot about someone’s values — compassion, health, conscious living — and it seems like a great starting point for meeting like-minded people who are also up for fab times. Curious if anyone else feels the same? Do you think being open about being vegan could help connect with others who share similar vibes? I’ve only spotted one person mention veganism on their profile so far, so I’m wondering — is it something people don’t usually share, or just not seen as relevant? Would love to hear your thoughts — does being vegan help you find more meaningful or fun connections in the lifestyle?" We are both vegan for ethical reasons, we don't push veganism onto people but we are quite happy to discuss it if people ask. Normally it is some meat and dairy users that get defensive when we mention it , but by and large it's cool and have not had any problems on here | |||
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"I’ve often thought that being vegan can say a lot about someone’s values — compassion, health, conscious living — and it seems like a great starting point for meeting like-minded people who are also up for fab times. Curious if anyone else feels the same? Do you think being open about being vegan could help connect with others who share similar vibes? I’ve only spotted one person mention veganism on their profile so far, so I’m wondering — is it something people don’t usually share, or just not seen as relevant? Would love to hear your thoughts — does being vegan help you find more meaningful or fun connections in the lifestyle? We are both vegan for ethical reasons, we don't push veganism onto people but we are quite happy to discuss it if people ask. Normally it is some meat and dairy users that get defensive when we mention it , but by and large it's cool and have not had any problems on here" Sounds wonderful just as I’d expect a vegan to reply. Fab profile videos btw ![]() | |||
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"If it’s for ethical reasons, I think it’s something you should be proud of but for some reason on this site people seem to despise anyone with values Just for clarification, are you saying that non-vegans lack values?" In case the poster doesn't see your question - I read their comment as saying that anyone who expresses their values on here (vegan or otherwise) gets grief for it, not that only vegans have values. Obviously that's only my interpretation. | |||
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"I am vegan... I find out other people are vegan by accident... Usually when we are ordering food or coffee. My experience is that generally fab is very aggressive towards vegans" So that’s why you buy all those cucumbers 😉 | |||
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"Oh but I dont think your morals are based on what you eat" Veganism isn't a diet - it's a belief that animals are not resources or commodities. You can avoid meat for many reasons, but boycotting leather, wool, horse racing, animal tested products and zoos can only be a moral choice. | |||
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"Oh but I dont think your morals are based on what you eat Veganism isn't a diet - it's a belief that animals are not resources or commodities. You can avoid meat for many reasons, but boycotting leather, wool, horse racing, animal tested products and zoos can only be a moral choice." I respect that but I wonder how many people who say they are a vegan actually are I get that you are but how many wear leather, deodorant etc. It's much more common to be vegan now and easier to adapt your life style but many years ago I had a vegan friend she could only get toiletries from body shop, and cook her own food. Wore hessin, she really was like something from a commune. But now days it's much easier to be vegetarian or vegan. Places even have the full menu options. I guess if you've been vegan for over ten years you will have seen how much more it is to be vegan in today's society. From what you've said I can see as a partner why you would only look at a vegan as a partner | |||
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"I am vegan... I find out other people are vegan by accident... Usually when we are ordering food or coffee. My experience is that generally fab is very aggressive towards vegans So that’s why you buy all those cucumbers 😉" Shhusshh | |||
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"I’ve often thought that being vegan can say a lot about someone’s values — compassion, health, conscious living — and it seems like a great starting point for meeting like-minded people who are also up for fab times. Curious if anyone else feels the same? Do you think being open about being vegan could help connect with others who share similar vibes? I’ve only spotted one person mention veganism on their profile so far, so I’m wondering — is it something people don’t usually share, or just not seen as relevant? Would love to hear your thoughts — does being vegan help you find more meaningful or fun connections in the lifestyle?" I'm not sure about the lifestyle...but I've found in the past that using veganism as a foundation for a relationship doesn't really work that well for me...sometimes being vegans can end up being the only thing that you actually you have in common with the other person.. So it isn't something I emphasise as an attribute for a partner. I just had some vegan cake though. Delicious. | |||
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"I'm not vegan, but I will say this: Plant-based lurpak is better than the real thing. Don't at me. I'm just speaking my truth." Ooohh try naturli -that's my favourite... Made with Shea butter | |||
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"I respect that but I wonder how many people who say they are a vegan actually are I get that you are but how many wear leather, deodorant etc. It's much more common to be vegan now and easier to adapt your life style but many years ago I had a vegan friend she could only get toiletries from body shop, and cook her own food. Wore hessin, she really was like something from a commune. But now days it's much easier to be vegetarian or vegan. Places even have the full menu options. I guess if you've been vegan for over ten years you will have seen how much more it is to be vegan in today's society. From what you've said I can see as a partner why you would only look at a vegan as a partner" It's easy now, but it is a pain the arse in some areas - like finding a (decent) car without a leather steering wheel or some good hiking boots, or even a sandwich when you're eating on the go. I hardly ever have an issue in restaurants - most places are happy to rise to the challenge. In my first year I hung onto my old boots and down jacket - and replaced stuff as soon I could afford it. I think I had a couple of feather filled cushions to replace too, but thankfully most of my home was vegan friendly by accident. Now I'm used to it - the occasional inconvenience is a pain, but I've always managed to work it out. The hardest part is that ALL medication is animal tested by law - there's really no avoiding it without putting yourself or others at risk. The best we can do is follow the advice of the Vegan Society (to avoid animal products as far as practicable and possible), and to stay as healthy as we can and to support the campaigns to change the system. | |||
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"I respect that but I wonder how many people who say they are a vegan actually are I get that you are but how many wear leather, deodorant etc. It's much more common to be vegan now and easier to adapt your life style but many years ago I had a vegan friend she could only get toiletries from body shop, and cook her own food. Wore hessin, she really was like something from a commune. But now days it's much easier to be vegetarian or vegan. Places even have the full menu options. I guess if you've been vegan for over ten years you will have seen how much more it is to be vegan in today's society. From what you've said I can see as a partner why you would only look at a vegan as a partner It's easy now, but it is a pain the arse in some areas - like finding a (decent) car without a leather steering wheel or some good hiking boots, or even a sandwich when you're eating on the go. I hardly ever have an issue in restaurants - most places are happy to rise to the challenge. In my first year I hung onto my old boots and down jacket - and replaced stuff as soon I could afford it. I think I had a couple of feather filled cushions to replace too, but thankfully most of my home was vegan friendly by accident. Now I'm used to it - the occasional inconvenience is a pain, but I've always managed to work it out. The hardest part is that ALL medication is animal tested by law - there's really no avoiding it without putting yourself or others at risk. The best we can do is follow the advice of the Vegan Society (to avoid animal products as far as practicable and possible), and to stay as healthy as we can and to support the campaigns to change the system. " This isn’t something I have ever even considered until reading this post but can you really own a car and be a vegan for ethical reasons considering the impact the automotive industry has on the lives of animals? | |||
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"As a vegan are they allowed to swallow cum? ![]() You ponder it and then let me know what you think | |||
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"As a vegan are they allowed to swallow cum? ![]() Me thinks they should not be swallowing cum..... well unless it's mine..ofcos ![]() | |||
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"Unlike a vegan, swingers don’t usually tell you they’re swingers within the first 30 seconds of meeting them. That's what the pineapple I'm always carrying around is for. Vegan friendly too." Depends how hard I hit 'em with it ![]() | |||
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"As a vegan are they allowed to swallow cum? ![]() ![]() Well of course if it's yours. It's what anyman and sperm guzzling women BUT Why do you think a vegan should not swallow sperm ? | |||
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"I wouldn't add I am a carnivore to my profile, but I could see why a vegan would. Maybe they are more comfortable in similar company." Interesting point! | |||
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"As a vegan are they allowed to swallow cum? ![]() ![]() Well the whole premise of being a vegan is eating that excludes all animal products and by products, by that logic sperm is an animal product or even at least by product..see where I'm "coming" from ![]() | |||
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"As a vegan are they allowed to swallow cum? ![]() I think that wouldn't be a problem, yes it's an animal product,.but because there's consent it's ok I guess. There was a guy I used to follow years ago called the "fruitarian". He'd eat fruit, vegetables, nuts and ingredients that tend to fall to the ground, with minimal interference to the plant..( this isn't something I could adhere to personally..). Long distance athlete, incredible physique on him. Didn't have an ounce of fat...looked like a chiseled statue.. | |||
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"As a vegan are they allowed to swallow cum? ![]() Consent..that is another can of worms! So are the fruit trees and vegetables consenting to be eaten? | |||
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"As a vegan are they allowed to swallow cum? ![]() I guess in a strict frutarian's case yes, as he doesn't interfere with the plant and waits for fruit etc. to fall to the ground. In the case of fruit, plants want them to be eaten by other organisims as it's a way for them to reproduce and spread seeds.. | |||
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"If only I had the strength to shout ![]() What would you shout james ? | |||
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"As a vegan are they allowed to swallow cum? ![]() ![]() ![]() Sperms are not animals | |||
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" My experience is that generally fab is very aggressive towards vegans" The internet in general is, but it's probably because the most vocal among us can come across as evangelising and project a 'holier than thou' attitude. However, it goes both ways, people love repeating - "how do you someone's vegan, they'll let you know immediately hehehe" even though, like you, I only know when someone gets something or they have it on their profile. It works as a good signal though, to know if someone's quick to judge or not. | |||
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"Honestly I think modernity is weird. " Honestly, I think agriculture is weird - imagine saying to a hunter-gatherer with lots of leisure time that they'd become servants to wheat. Honestly, I think the industrial revolution is weird - imagine men, women and even children in dangerous working conditions in factories instead of farms. Honestly... | |||
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"Honestly I think modernity is weird. I grew up with ww2 grandparents and married an African. Imagine the dense conversations modern people have. Vegan gender people. It's a good idea for women with menopause to be vegan but men need meat." Please explain why you think men need meat ? If you think it is linked to libido, then are doing exactly the wrong thing, as you are furring your arteries and slowing down your blood flow, so less effective elections. | |||
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"Honestly I think modernity is weird. I grew up with ww2 grandparents and married an African. Imagine the dense conversations modern people have. Vegan gender people. It's a good idea for women with menopause to be vegan but men need meat." I don't know about the vegan diet being beneficial for menopausal ladies but I guess medical factors need to be considered. Diet is not one size fits all. Balance is key People are free to make dietary choices, of course and if veganism is because of consent what are people's thoughts on people putting their Children on a vegan diet? Can a Child consent to that? | |||
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"Vegetarian for the last 15 years, think I might try taking the vegan plunge one day, but cheese (in all different forms) is my weakness " I see no harm in cheese if the milk is ethically sourced. The problem is that cows are mistreated to obtain the milk ...... now if you were on a savanna getting milk from a wild cow and making your own cheese..... | |||
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"Children rarely consent to anything e.g. bedtime, bathtime, vegetables, school, sharing, clothes, holidays , visiting relatives etc ...... Their parents make decisions in their best interests." ![]() | |||
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"Honestly I think modernity is weird. Honestly, I think agriculture is weird - imagine saying to a hunter-gatherer with lots of leisure time that they'd become servants to wheat. Honestly, I think the industrial revolution is weird - imagine men, women and even children in dangerous working conditions in factories instead of farms. Honestly..." Yeah, I don't know why we even bothered inventing the wheel. | |||
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"I do find vegans can be a bit sanctimonious, please excuse me those who have answered on here and given your reasons. That's just my opinion that's all. But I do love BC." What is BC ? | |||
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"Children rarely consent to anything e.g. bedtime, bathtime, vegetables, school, sharing, clothes, holidays , visiting relatives etc ...... Their parents make decisions in their best interests." This is so fundamental and true and gets forgotten so easily that it’s definitely worth the reminder. | |||
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"Vegetarian for the last 15 years, think I might try taking the vegan plunge one day, but cheese (in all different forms) is my weakness I see no harm in cheese if the milk is ethically sourced. The problem is that cows are mistreated to obtain the milk ...... now if you were on a savanna getting milk from a wild cow and making your own cheese..... " Those African animals rip eachother to pieces slowly. It's a brutal thing to watch. Even myself as a meat eater who has hunted and slaughtered before. I find I don't enjoy going at that time of year like wildebeest migration. They don't humanity kill eachother. The tribes there don't kill the wild animals much. They farm cows. | |||
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"Honestly I think modernity is weird. I grew up with ww2 grandparents and married an African. Imagine the dense conversations modern people have. Vegan gender people. It's a good idea for women with menopause to be vegan but men need meat. Please explain why you think men need meat ? If you think it is linked to libido, then are doing exactly the wrong thing, as you are furring your arteries and slowing down your blood flow, so less effective elections. " I've got more power after a steak than after a bowl of beans | |||
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"Honestly I think modernity is weird. I grew up with ww2 grandparents and married an African. Imagine the dense conversations modern people have. Vegan gender people. It's a good idea for women with menopause to be vegan but men need meat. Please explain why you think men need meat ? If you think it is linked to libido, then are doing exactly the wrong thing, as you are furring your arteries and slowing down your blood flow, so less effective elections. I've got more power after a steak than after a bowl of beans" And where do you think the cow got it's protein from ? | |||
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"Vegetarian for the last 15 years, think I might try taking the vegan plunge one day, but cheese (in all different forms) is my weakness I see no harm in cheese if the milk is ethically sourced. The problem is that cows are mistreated to obtain the milk ...... now if you were on a savanna getting milk from a wild cow and making your own cheese..... Those African animals rip eachother to pieces slowly. It's a brutal thing to watch. Even myself as a meat eater who has hunted and slaughtered before. I find I don't enjoy going at that time of year like wildebeest migration. They don't humanity kill eachother. The tribes there don't kill the wild animals much. They farm cows. " We get it, you love meat. Isn't it great that humanity has evolved to the point where we have an abundance of food that people can make a choice? | |||
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"Unlike a vegan, swingers don’t usually tell you they’re swingers within the first 30 seconds of meeting them." This. Imagine meeting a vegan teacher who does crossfit? Fuck knows what they'd tell you first | |||
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" We get it, you love meat. Isn't it great that humanity has evolved to the point where we have an abundance of food that people can make a choice?" Yes. I refuse to be a porridge eating dark age peasant. I want steak and octopus etc.. | |||
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" We get it, you love meat. Isn't it great that humanity has evolved to the point where we have an abundance of food that people can make a choice? Yes. I refuse to be a porridge eating dark age peasant. I want steak and octopus etc.." Ah ok. I could never eat an octopus myself.. even if it tastes great. I wanted a pet octopus as a kid. ![]() | |||
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" We get it, you love meat. Isn't it great that humanity has evolved to the point where we have an abundance of food that people can make a choice? Yes. I refuse to be a porridge eating dark age peasant. I want steak and octopus etc.." I too, don't like to shit properly for two weeks | |||
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"Unlike a vegan, swingers don’t usually tell you they’re swingers within the first 30 seconds of meeting them. That's what the pineapple I'm always carrying around is for. Vegan friendly too. Depends how hard I hit 'em with it ![]() 🤣🤣🤣 | |||
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" People are free to make dietary choices, of course and if veganism is because of consent what are people's thoughts on people putting their Children on a vegan diet? Can a Child consent to that?" A malnourished child is a victim of abuse/ bad parenting regardless of whether they are vegan, vegetarian, pescitarian, omnivore diet fan... ad infinitum. The problem isn't the philosophy you see, it's the parent... That might mean they lack education, money, maternal instinct or who knows what. | |||
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" People are free to make dietary choices, of course and if veganism is because of consent what are people's thoughts on people putting their Children on a vegan diet? Can a Child consent to that? " Using the same logic can children consent to eating meat? Some would argue that it is better they don't eat it, and then they can choose when old enough if they do or don't. You can't undo having eaten it. | |||
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"Children rarely consent to anything e.g. bedtime, bathtime, vegetables, school, sharing, clothes, holidays , visiting relatives etc ...... Their parents make decisions in their best interests." I beg to differ, I mean, every night when I was wide awake they made me go to bed, and every morning when I was fast asleep they made me get up, that’s bordering on abuse ![]() | |||
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"Honestly I think modernity is weird. I grew up with ww2 grandparents and married an African. Imagine the dense conversations modern people have. Vegan gender people. It's a good idea for women with menopause to be vegan but men need meat. Please explain why you think men need meat ? If you think it is linked to libido, then are doing exactly the wrong thing, as you are furring your arteries and slowing down your blood flow, so less effective elections. I've got more power after a steak than after a bowl of beans" Ah yes, 'a bowl of beans' - famously the only vegan food. You do realise that there are award-winning vegan bodybuilders, right? Look up Patrik Baboumian, he seems to be doing pretty well on a vegan diet. Or Scott Jurek, who set a new record for running the Appalachian Trail. Or footballer Chris Smalling whose career was plagued by inflammation injuries which almost entirely disappeared after he went vegan. Just 3 examples out of many. Or you could keep saying men need meat because of...vibes? https://www.veganfoodandliving.com/features/vegan-athletes-plant-based-diet/ | |||
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" People are free to make dietary choices, of course and if veganism is because of consent what are people's thoughts on people putting their Children on a vegan diet? Can a Child consent to that? Using the same logic can children consent to eating meat? Some would argue that it is better they don't eat it, and then they can choose when old enough if they do or don't. You can't undo having eaten it. " You can't undo it, but you're essentially adding limitations to their diet before they even know better. You can make an informed decision having tried everything rather than feeling forced into not trying something because it's how you were raised. Sincerely, someone who was made to feel bad wasting beef growing up because I'm Indian | |||
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" People are free to make dietary choices, of course and if veganism is because of consent what are people's thoughts on people putting their Children on a vegan diet? Can a Child consent to that? Using the same logic can children consent to eating meat? Some would argue that it is better they don't eat it, and then they can choose when old enough if they do or don't. You can't undo having eaten it. You can't undo it, but you're essentially adding limitations to their diet before they even know better. You can make an informed decision having tried everything rather than feeling forced into not trying something because it's how you were raised. Sincerely, someone who was made to feel bad wasting beef growing up because I'm Indian" *Eating, not wasting | |||
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"Vegetarian for the last 15 years, think I might try taking the vegan plunge one day, but cheese (in all different forms) is my weakness I see no harm in cheese if the milk is ethically sourced. The problem is that cows are mistreated to obtain the milk ...... now if you were on a savanna getting milk from a wild cow and making your own cheese..... Those African animals rip eachother to pieces slowly. It's a brutal thing to watch. Even myself as a meat eater who has hunted and slaughtered before. I find I don't enjoy going at that time of year like wildebeest migration. They don't humanity kill eachother. The tribes there don't kill the wild animals much. They farm cows. " Thanks. I was not referring to hunters in Africa nor wild animals. | |||
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"Unlike a vegan, swingers don’t usually tell you they’re swingers within the first 30 seconds of meeting them. This. Imagine meeting a vegan teacher who does crossfit? Fuck knows what they'd tell you first " Probably to get therapy for pent up resentment | |||
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"I had a Greg’s vegan sausage roll after my bacon roll does that count " No Wilts. You can't cancel out your carnivore habits by eating mushed up soybeans n mushrooms in fatty pastry | |||
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"The sheer amount of abuse we have had from militant vegans on here is insane but reporting them did nothing. I am the first to say I am anti-vegan but I don't mean the peaceful non-pushy types, but rather the aggressive ones. C" 4% of the population are vegan ( adults ) 0.64% of the uk population are swingers ........ God knows how many of that 4% are militant and swingers..... How many abusive messages would that make ? | |||
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" People are free to make dietary choices, of course and if veganism is because of consent what are people's thoughts on people putting their Children on a vegan diet? Can a Child consent to that? Using the same logic can children consent to eating meat? Some would argue that it is better they don't eat it, and then they can choose when old enough if they do or don't. You can't undo having eaten it. " No you can't and I understand what you are saying. In the same vein some would say that it is better for Children to have a balanced diet rich in the nutrients a Child needs to grow and develop starting with pregnancy. Not saying a vegan diet is bad for a Child if it's well planned and considered but from my experiences from working with small Children with these dietary requirements it's rarely the case | |||
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" People are free to make dietary choices, of course and if veganism is because of consent what are people's thoughts on people putting their Children on a vegan diet? Can a Child consent to that? Using the same logic can children consent to eating meat? Some would argue that it is better they don't eat it, and then they can choose when old enough if they do or don't. You can't undo having eaten it. No you can't and I understand what you are saying. In the same vein some would say that it is better for Children to have a balanced diet rich in the nutrients a Child needs to grow and develop starting with pregnancy. Not saying a vegan diet is bad for a Child if it's well planned and considered but from my experiences from working with small Children with these dietary requirements it's rarely the case" And also, are people making these decisions for their Children informed by research into Child development health and wellbeing or their own opinions, beliefs and experiences.... | |||
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"How can you tell a person is vegan? They will always tell you " 100%! Eating meat one animal loses it life to give you food....veg ,well its sprayed to kill the bugs from consuming it, wildlife is controlled to stop them eating it. Far more living organisms die, there just not as big and therefore to a vegan less important. | |||
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"I think it was Paul or Linda McCartney that said, 'if slaughterhouses had glass walls, we'd all be vegetarian,' (I know, you can apply that to Salmon pens etc.) I guess, It's like that question on observation. an perception, "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Unlike my dad, I vowed to listen to my Children (they are younger and wiser), 'try going Vegan Dad', they knew I was questioning the morals for years. Its been the most positive and life changing decision I ever made. I just wish I made it sooner. So I'm in no place to, and won't judge. Thanks for the great post." If you could see inside the factories producing the majority of vegan (and meat based) ultra processed foods, we would all look at what we put in our mouths differently! | |||
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"Absolutely arrogance to think that veganism is some how a morally superior lifestyle and that the people who preach the lifestyle have some sort of higher values. I have these debates with friends a lot and I’ve yet to hear a decent health or moral argument yet. " Luckily no one on this thread said that veganism is a morally superior lifestyle or that vegan have higher values. | |||
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"Won't argue with that, I stick to Rice, Veg, whole foods, but my premise was (belatedly) relating to ethical and moral, as a 'side effect' I lost weight, gained energy and and am in the best place I've been health wise. Unless you are a disciple of 'Jainism' - I believe your comment misses the 'thrust' ![]() What you havent stated is your diet pre vegan . If you were consuming ready meals,take aways,crisps and fizzy drink then 100% you would be better off. Thats not a fair comparison. | |||
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"I’ve often thought that being vegan can say a lot about someone’s values — compassion, health, conscious living — and it seems like a great starting point for meeting like-minded people who are also up for fab times. Curious if anyone else feels the same? Do you think being open about being vegan could help connect with others who share similar vibes? I’ve only spotted one person mention veganism on their profile so far, so I’m wondering — is it something people don’t usually share, or just not seen as relevant? Would love to hear your thoughts — does being vegan help you find more meaningful or fun connections in the lifestyle?" LOL: so because I am an omnivore, I would like to confirm that I am also compassionate, health conscious, have a significant concern for the planet and our environment and would like to believe that my diet is not the bases for the depth of meaning in my relationships or hampers the fun. It also means that I am less sanctimonious, self-aggrandizing or deluding myself into believing that eating avocado and needing iron and folic acid supplements makes me healthier or better for the planet. I hope you enjoy your food choices but assuming any social or moral high ground… shame. | |||
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"Absolutely arrogance to think that veganism is some how a morally superior lifestyle and that the people who preach the lifestyle have some sort of higher values. I have these debates with friends a lot and I’ve yet to hear a decent health or moral argument yet. Luckily no one on this thread said that veganism is a morally superior lifestyle or that vegan have higher values. " It’s literally the first line of the thread 🥱 the presumption of superiority that all non vegans have come to know and love 🥰 | |||
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"Won't argue with that, I stick to Rice, Veg, whole foods, but my premise was (belatedly) relating to ethical and moral, as a 'side effect' I lost weight, gained energy and and am in the best place I've been health wise. Unless you are a disciple of 'Jainism' - I believe your comment misses the 'thrust' ![]() . 'pre date was above 'plus meat'. I've never been into crisps, chocolate, fizzy drinks, processed food, takeaways. so the only 'variable' has been the meat and the exclusion thereof. the other elements have been 'constants. why so cynical ? | |||
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"I am vegan... I find out other people are vegan by accident... Usually when we are ordering food or coffee. My experience is that generally fab is very aggressive towards vegans" I just think vegans start out with a sanctimonious manner that just puts more socially accepting people on edge, I treat them like Jehovah’s Witnesses, let’s have a chat about anything else other than Jehovah or why you think eating salads and lentils are going to save my soul or the planet. | |||
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"Absolutely arrogance to think that veganism is some how a morally superior lifestyle and that the people who preach the lifestyle have some sort of higher values. I have these debates with friends a lot and I’ve yet to hear a decent health or moral argument yet. Luckily no one on this thread said that veganism is a morally superior lifestyle or that vegan have higher values. It’s literally the first line of the thread 🥱 the presumption of superiority that all non vegans have come to know and love 🥰 " superiority or simply 'enlightenment' couple with an ability to 'forget', 'ignore' 'rewire' ? the question is rhetorical. | |||
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"Won't argue with that, I stick to Rice, Veg, whole foods, but my premise was (belatedly) relating to ethical and moral, as a 'side effect' I lost weight, gained energy and and am in the best place I've been health wise. Unless you are a disciple of 'Jainism' - I believe your comment misses the 'thrust' ![]() So you stopped eating meat but the rest of your diet stayed exactly the same, but you lost weight. Thats simply less in less calories. Or starvation. | |||
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"I am vegan... I find out other people are vegan by accident... Usually when we are ordering food or coffee. My experience is that generally fab is very aggressive towards vegans I just think vegans start out with a sanctimonious manner that just puts more socially accepting people on edge, I treat them like Jehovah’s Witnesses, let’s have a chat about anything else other than Jehovah or why you think eating salads and lentils are going to save my soul or the planet." Ethics / Morals aside (Shoppenhaur if interested), Read 'Diet for a small planet' (Frances Moore Lappe), and all will become clear. | |||
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"Won't argue with that, I stick to Rice, Veg, whole foods, but my premise was (belatedly) relating to ethical and moral, as a 'side effect' I lost weight, gained energy and and am in the best place I've been health wise. Unless you are a disciple of 'Jainism' - I believe your comment misses the 'thrust' ![]() No it's simply a maths calculation - let me know if you want the text, / formula. as I said, the health benefits were a side effect (albeit positive). | |||
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"I am vegan... I find out other people are vegan by accident... Usually when we are ordering food or coffee. My experience is that generally fab is very aggressive towards vegans I just think vegans start out with a sanctimonious manner that just puts more socially accepting people on edge, I treat them like Jehovah’s Witnesses, let’s have a chat about anything else other than Jehovah or why you think eating salads and lentils are going to save my soul or the planet." Whilst importing food half way round the world. None have come up with a balanced reply on the amount of invertabrates or wildlife killed to preserve their food sources. Yet to come up with a reasoned argument how they can grow fruit/pulses/cereals on land on suitable for grass production. | |||
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"Won't argue with that, I stick to Rice, Veg, whole foods, but my premise was (belatedly) relating to ethical and moral, as a 'side effect' I lost weight, gained energy and and am in the best place I've been health wise. Unless you are a disciple of 'Jainism' - I believe your comment misses the 'thrust' ![]() Simply you were consuming too many calories and became overweight. Going vegan cut the calories, and starved yourself. I eat meat as part of a healthy balanced diet. No health issues, consuming little ultra processed foods and only natural fats. | |||
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"I am vegan... I find out other people are vegan by accident... Usually when we are ordering food or coffee. My experience is that generally fab is very aggressive towards vegans I just think vegans start out with a sanctimonious manner that just puts more socially accepting people on edge, I treat them like Jehovah’s Witnesses, let’s have a chat about anything else other than Jehovah or why you think eating salads and lentils are going to save my soul or the planet. Whilst importing food half way round the world. None have come up with a balanced reply on the amount of invertabrates or wildlife killed to preserve their food sources. Yet to come up with a reasoned argument how they can grow fruit/pulses/cereals on land on suitable for grass production." 'Diet for a small Planet' Fances Moore Lappe, ISBM 978-0-345-32120-6, is a good starting point. Also I Suggest read and around 'sentient beings' Happy Reading | |||
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"I am vegan... I find out other people are vegan by accident... Usually when we are ordering food or coffee. My experience is that generally fab is very aggressive towards vegans I just think vegans start out with a sanctimonious manner that just puts more socially accepting people on edge, I treat them like Jehovah’s Witnesses, let’s have a chat about anything else other than Jehovah or why you think eating salads and lentils are going to save my soul or the planet. Whilst importing food half way round the world. None have come up with a balanced reply on the amount of invertabrates or wildlife killed to preserve their food sources. Yet to come up with a reasoned argument how they can grow fruit/pulses/cereals on land on suitable for grass production. 'Diet for a small Planet' Fances Moore Lappe, ISBM 978-0-345-32120-6, is a good starting point. Also I Suggest read and around 'sentient beings' Happy Reading" Propaganda ![]() | |||
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" Probably to get therapy for pent up resentment " They all want to fuck their own mothers (Freud) | |||
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"Absolutely arrogance to think that veganism is some how a morally superior lifestyle and that the people who preach the lifestyle have some sort of higher values. I have these debates with friends a lot and I’ve yet to hear a decent health or moral argument yet. Luckily no one on this thread said that veganism is a morally superior lifestyle or that vegan have higher values. It’s literally the first line of the thread 🥱 the presumption of superiority that all non vegans have come to know and love 🥰 superiority or simply 'enlightenment' couple with an ability to 'forget', 'ignore' 'rewire' ? the question is rhetorical." This ⬆️ isn’t enlightenment, it’s waffle, absolute tripe peddled by dull masochists to continue justifying there constant need for attention. Your no different than the people that swear of sex in pursuit of morale superiority, the first thing they do is try justify to anyone who will listen. | |||
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"I am vegan... I find out other people are vegan by accident... Usually when we are ordering food or coffee. My experience is that generally fab is very aggressive towards vegans I just think vegans start out with a sanctimonious manner that just puts more socially accepting people on edge, I treat them like Jehovah’s Witnesses, let’s have a chat about anything else other than Jehovah or why you think eating salads and lentils are going to save my soul or the planet. Whilst importing food half way round the world. None have come up with a balanced reply on the amount of invertabrates or wildlife killed to preserve their food sources. Yet to come up with a reasoned argument how they can grow fruit/pulses/cereals on land on suitable for grass production. 'Diet for a small Planet' Fances Moore Lappe, ISBM 978-0-345-32120-6, is a good starting point. Also I Suggest read and around 'sentient beings' Happy Reading Propaganda ![]() Unlike 'Farmers Weekly' and 'Clarkson's Farm' or 'Meat Trades Journal' ? we al know the farming Lobby. Remember the protest in London, a spokes lady for the NFU or whoever pleading poverty and she looked like a pin up for 'Girls in Pearls' (Country Life) ! | |||
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"Absolutely arrogance to think that veganism is some how a morally superior lifestyle and that the people who preach the lifestyle have some sort of higher values. I have these debates with friends a lot and I’ve yet to hear a decent health or moral argument yet. Luckily no one on this thread said that veganism is a morally superior lifestyle or that vegan have higher values. It’s literally the first line of the thread 🥱 the presumption of superiority that all non vegans have come to know and love 🥰 superiority or simply 'enlightenment' couple with an ability to 'forget', 'ignore' 'rewire' ? the question is rhetorical. This ⬆️ isn’t enlightenment, it’s waffle, absolute tripe peddled by dull masochists to continue justifying there constant need for attention. Your no different than the people that swear of sex in pursuit of morale superiority, the first thing they do is try justify to anyone who will listen." a closed mind if ever I saw one. 'I'd challenge you to a battle of wits, but I see that you are unarmed' | |||
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"Absolutely arrogance to think that veganism is some how a morally superior lifestyle and that the people who preach the lifestyle have some sort of higher values. I have these debates with friends a lot and I’ve yet to hear a decent health or moral argument yet. Luckily no one on this thread said that veganism is a morally superior lifestyle or that vegan have higher values. It’s literally the first line of the thread 🥱 the presumption of superiority that all non vegans have come to know and love 🥰 superiority or simply 'enlightenment' couple with an ability to 'forget', 'ignore' 'rewire' ? the question is rhetorical. This ⬆️ isn’t enlightenment, it’s waffle, absolute tripe peddled by dull masochists to continue justifying there constant need for attention. Your no different than the people that swear of sex in pursuit of morale superiority, the first thing they do is try justify to anyone who will listen. a closed mind if ever I saw one. 'I'd challenge you to a battle of wits, but I see that you are unarmed'" 😂😂 your a cult member mate you have no argument that you have ever thought of yourself, please name more authors of you cults favourite doctrine that will put us all in our place lol. Have a good night pal | |||
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"I am vegan... I find out other people are vegan by accident... Usually when we are ordering food or coffee. My experience is that generally fab is very aggressive towards vegans I just think vegans start out with a sanctimonious manner that just puts more socially accepting people on edge, I treat them like Jehovah’s Witnesses, let’s have a chat about anything else other than Jehovah or why you think eating salads and lentils are going to save my soul or the planet. Whilst importing food half way round the world. None have come up with a balanced reply on the amount of invertabrates or wildlife killed to preserve their food sources. Yet to come up with a reasoned argument how they can grow fruit/pulses/cereals on land on suitable for grass production. 'Diet for a small Planet' Fances Moore Lappe, ISBM 978-0-345-32120-6, is a good starting point. Also I Suggest read and around 'sentient beings' Happy Reading Propaganda ![]() You seem to have confused a "non fiction" , but probably a quite ficticious book with a trade magazines and a reality TV show produced on the whole for entertainment. You have skirted around the death of thousands of wild invertibrates and fungi decimated to preserve your food stuff over the demise a single domesticated beast. Typical vegan distraction behaviour. | |||
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"Absolutely arrogance to think that veganism is some how a morally superior lifestyle and that the people who preach the lifestyle have some sort of higher values. I have these debates with friends a lot and I’ve yet to hear a decent health or moral argument yet. Luckily no one on this thread said that veganism is a morally superior lifestyle or that vegan have higher values. It’s literally the first line of the thread 🥱 the presumption of superiority that all non vegans have come to know and love 🥰 " It 'literally' in the true sense of the word........ isn't | |||
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"I am vegan... I find out other people are vegan by accident... Usually when we are ordering food or coffee. My experience is that generally fab is very aggressive towards vegans I just think vegans start out with a sanctimonious manner that just puts more socially accepting people on edge, I treat them like Jehovah’s Witnesses, let’s have a chat about anything else other than Jehovah or why you think eating salads and lentils are going to save my soul or the planet. Whilst importing food half way round the world. None have come up with a balanced reply on the amount of invertabrates or wildlife killed to preserve their food sources. Yet to come up with a reasoned argument how they can grow fruit/pulses/cereals on land on suitable for grass production. 'Diet for a small Planet' Fances Moore Lappe, ISBM 978-0-345-32120-6, is a good starting point. Also I Suggest read and around 'sentient beings' Happy Reading Propaganda ![]() | |||
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"I am vegan... I find out other people are vegan by accident... Usually when we are ordering food or coffee. My experience is that generally fab is very aggressive towards vegans I just think vegans start out with a sanctimonious manner that just puts more socially accepting people on edge, I treat them like Jehovah’s Witnesses, let’s have a chat about anything else other than Jehovah or why you think eating salads and lentils are going to save my soul or the planet. Whilst importing food half way round the world. None have come up with a balanced reply on the amount of invertabrates or wildlife killed to preserve their food sources. Yet to come up with a reasoned argument how they can grow fruit/pulses/cereals on land on suitable for grass production. 'Diet for a small Planet' Fances Moore Lappe, ISBM 978-0-345-32120-6, is a good starting point. Also I Suggest read and around 'sentient beings' Happy Reading Propaganda ![]() | |||
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"I am vegan... I find out other people are vegan by accident... Usually when we are ordering food or coffee. My experience is that generally fab is very aggressive towards vegans I just think vegans start out with a sanctimonious manner that just puts more socially accepting people on edge, I treat them like Jehovah’s Witnesses, let’s have a chat about anything else other than Jehovah or why you think eating salads and lentils are going to save my soul or the planet. Whilst importing food half way round the world. None have come up with a balanced reply on the amount of invertabrates or wildlife killed to preserve their food sources. Yet to come up with a reasoned argument how they can grow fruit/pulses/cereals on land on suitable for grass production. 'Diet for a small Planet' Fances Moore Lappe, ISBM 978-0-345-32120-6, is a good starting point. Also I Suggest read and around 'sentient beings' Happy Reading Propaganda ![]() Ive no been aggresive but questioned the so called facts you have presented. Ive shown sound reason to dismiss those but you care to ignore them quoting a lengthy book via an isbn number that is no doubt written by a believer, ready to sell you the next installment "how to source vegan toilet roll(yes animals are harmed and ecosytems destroyed in timber harvesting)" rather than information that has been peer reviewed and factual. You then throw accusations in regard to being closed minded and vested interest. I couldnt care less if you are vegan, but please present hard facts rather than "i stopped eating meat and felt healthier" , keep consuming the placebo ![]() | |||
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"I am vegan... I find out other people are vegan by accident... Usually when we are ordering food or coffee. My experience is that generally fab is very aggressive towards vegans I just think vegans start out with a sanctimonious manner that just puts more socially accepting people on edge, I treat them like Jehovah’s Witnesses, let’s have a chat about anything else other than Jehovah or why you think eating salads and lentils are going to save my soul or the planet. Whilst importing food half way round the world. None have come up with a balanced reply on the amount of invertabrates or wildlife killed to preserve their food sources. Yet to come up with a reasoned argument how they can grow fruit/pulses/cereals on land on suitable for grass production. 'Diet for a small Planet' Fances Moore Lappe, ISBM 978-0-345-32120-6, is a good starting point. Also I Suggest read and around 'sentient beings' Happy Reading Propaganda ![]() No they are trade magazines, scattered with news items, features on businesses, new products and advertising. They also talk about the heribicides,insectacides and fungacides that are sprayed all over your vegan foods to kill a mulititude of life forms. Are they any less worthy of having a life? | |||
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"This isn’t something I have ever even considered until reading this post but can you really own a car and be a vegan for ethical reasons considering the impact the automotive industry has on the lives of animals?" Everything humans do creates an impact - even bicycle paint might be produced using stearic acid in the paintwork or gelatin in the tyres. It takes quite a bit of research to discover alternatives, and sometimes you simply don't have the option. But we all need transport of some kind, and even buses could use biofuel (from animals), and I doubt you can make a train journey without it smashing a few bugs along the way. Moving away from that, houses are built on animal habitats, trees are felled with no regard for the creatures nesting in them - but we still need to live somewhere. It's not an animal friendly world when you think about it. So, the only thing we can do - vegan or not - is to try to use less of everything. | |||
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"Eating meat one animal loses it life to give you food....veg ,well its sprayed to kill the bugs from consuming it, wildlife is controlled to stop them eating it. Far more living organisms die, there just not as big and therefore to a vegan less important." What do you think the animals you eat are fed on? rocks and sawdust? 😉 Think of it this way. It takes a certain amount of plant produce to feed a meat animal, with habitats cleared to produce that feed and keep the livestock - not to mention animal populations kept artificially high by enforced insemination, thus using up resources that could be left to nature or for growing other crops. Bearing this in mind, it is obviously more sustainable to cut out the animal and go straight to the plant source. | |||
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"Eating meat one animal loses it life to give you food....veg ,well its sprayed to kill the bugs from consuming it, wildlife is controlled to stop them eating it. Far more living organisms die, there just not as big and therefore to a vegan less important. What do you think the animals you eat are fed on? rocks and sawdust? 😉 Think of it this way. It takes a certain amount of plant produce to feed a meat animal, with habitats cleared to produce that feed and keep the livestock - not to mention animal populations kept artificially high by enforced insemination, thus using up resources that could be left to nature or for growing other crops. Bearing this in mind, it is obviously more sustainable to cut out the animal and go straight to the plant source. " Another propaganda believing vegan. Your post definetly lacks facts. | |||
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"How can you tell a person is vegan? They will always tell you 100%! Eating meat one animal loses it life to give you food....veg ,well its sprayed to kill the bugs from consuming it, wildlife is controlled to stop them eating it. Far more living organisms die, there just not as big and therefore to a vegan less important." I take it you never eat vegetables then, a very typical silly answer | |||
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"How can you tell a person is vegan? They will always tell you 100%! Eating meat one animal loses it life to give you food....veg ,well its sprayed to kill the bugs from consuming it, wildlife is controlled to stop them eating it. Far more living organisms die, there just not as big and therefore to a vegan less important. I take it you never eat vegetables then, a very typical silly answer " Why is it? I've not said that im against the use of animals for food. Vegans use so called moral reasons not to consume beings. Just because they do not consume them doesn't not mean they are killed in food production. What puts one species above another when it comes to life? | |||
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"Folks just don't like to acknowledge that all morals, values, ethics, rights etc. are merely artificial abstract constructs. Such nonsenses are designed deliberately to obscure the uncomfortable reality that homo sapiens is just another mammal. No more, no less. We are the only species that invents such constraints on behaviour - or needs to. Veganism and vegetarianism are all about allowing oneself to feel a totally unjustified smug superiority. " Your position, while confidently expressed, rests on a reductionist view of human nature that, I’d argue, sells our species short. Yes, we are mammals. But we are also meaning-makers. The notion that morals, ethics, and values are "artificial constructs" is hardly a revelation—of course they are. So too are language, music, law, mathematics, and indeed the very concept of civilisation. That these things are constructed does not render them meaningless. Quite the contrary: it is our capacity to create such frameworks—to imagine better ways of being—that elevates us beyond the purely instinctive. As for veganism or vegetarianism being about “unjustified smug superiority,” I’d gently suggest that this says more about your perception of others’ motives than their reality. Speaking personally, my choice was born not of pride, but regret—a quiet reckoning with the consequences of habits I once accepted unthinkingly. If anything, it has made me more humble, not less. If moral constructs are inventions, then so too is cruelty—and we have the power to choose which we perpetuate. That seems to me a worthwhile constraint. | |||
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"Probably wouldn’t work for me. I doubt a vegan wants to sit in a restaurant watching someone eat meat and I don’t want to sit in a restaurant feeling uncomfortable because of it. Definitely wouldn’t work in a relationship. I wouldn’t be cooking more than one meal every day. " I've eaten with vegan and vegetarians in the past. There's an initial awkwardness to order meet things but some really aren't as militant as others would like you to believe. If a good restaurant has good options for both then there really shouldn't be an issue in what your choose to eat and they've been totally fine with it. | |||
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"Folks just don't like to acknowledge that all morals, values, ethics, rights etc. are merely artificial abstract constructs. Such nonsenses are designed deliberately to obscure the uncomfortable reality that homo sapiens is just another mammal. No more, no less. We are the only species that invents such constraints on behaviour - or needs to. Veganism and vegetarianism are all about allowing oneself to feel a totally unjustified smug superiority. Your position, while confidently expressed, rests on a reductionist view of human nature that, I’d argue, sells our species short. Yes, we are mammals. But we are also meaning-makers. The notion that morals, ethics, and values are "artificial constructs" is hardly a revelation—of course they are. So too are language, music, law, mathematics, and indeed the very concept of civilisation. That these things are constructed does not render them meaningless. Quite the contrary: it is our capacity to create such frameworks—to imagine better ways of being—that elevates us beyond the purely instinctive. As for veganism or vegetarianism being about “unjustified smug superiority,” I’d gently suggest that this says more about your perception of others’ motives than their reality. Speaking personally, my choice was born not of pride, but regret—a quiet reckoning with the consequences of habits I once accepted unthinkingly. If anything, it has made me more humble, not less. If moral constructs are inventions, then so too is cruelty—and we have the power to choose which we perpetuate. That seems to me a worthwhile constraint." That is very well put. | |||
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" Another propaganda believing vegan. Your post definetly lacks facts. " Animals are fed plants, and the animals are then fed to people So, cut out the artificial insemination and forced breeding of animals and just grow plants for humans instead. That's not propaganda; that's common sense. 😉 | |||
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" Another propaganda believing vegan. Your post definetly lacks facts. Animals are fed plants, and the animals are then fed to people So, cut out the artificial insemination and forced breeding of animals and just grow plants for humans instead. That's not propaganda; that's common sense. 😉" You have cherry picked only part of your post. "It takes a certain amount of plant produce to feed a meat animal, with habitats cleared to produce that feed and keep the livestock - not to mention animal populations kept artificially high by enforced insemination, thus using up resources that could be left to nature or for growing other crops" Fact is areas are cleared for food production, the main being Soya, which is grown for the lucrative human consumption market. Animals consume by-products and waste from human food production. Vegetables and cereal based. "Animal populations are kept artifically high by enforced AI" Someone has definetly been sucked in by lies. An animal can no way be made to re-populate faster than nature allows. Gestation periods are set naturally and if the conditions arent right conception will not take place. Thats simple biology. Vast majority of animal breeding is done via natural service. You really need to check your sources of information BIG TIME. | |||
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"Folks just don't like to acknowledge that all morals, values, ethics, rights etc. are merely artificial abstract constructs. Such nonsenses are designed deliberately to obscure the uncomfortable reality that homo sapiens is just another mammal. No more, no less. We are the only species that invents such constraints on behaviour - or needs to. Veganism and vegetarianism are all about allowing oneself to feel a totally unjustified smug superiority. Your position, while confidently expressed, rests on a reductionist view of human nature that, I’d argue, sells our species short. Yes, we are mammals. But we are also meaning-makers. The notion that morals, ethics, and values are "artificial constructs" is hardly a revelation—of course they are. So too are language, music, law, mathematics, and indeed the very concept of civilisation. That these things are constructed does not render them meaningless. Quite the contrary: it is our capacity to create such frameworks—to imagine better ways of being—that elevates us beyond the purely instinctive. As for veganism or vegetarianism being about “unjustified smug superiority,” I’d gently suggest that this says more about your perception of others’ motives than their reality. Speaking personally, my choice was born not of pride, but regret—a quiet reckoning with the consequences of habits I once accepted unthinkingly. If anything, it has made me more humble, not less. If moral constructs are inventions, then so too is cruelty—and we have the power to choose which we perpetuate. That seems to me a worthwhile constraint." I found that very well written, and constructed - yet I also find it offers nothing further than the original post. It's simply a personal choice to define something as cruel (the eating of animals essentially?) and by default other forms of plant life is not. I have no issue with personal choice to eat meat or not. It's when people believe they can make that choice for other people that it becomes a moral concern for me. Personally, I haven't met many vegans or vegetarians who believe they have such a right, but I would be morally opposed to anyone who did. I find statistics like 60% of mammalian life is livestock Vs 4% wildlife quite eye-opening. (by biomass) When it comes to the destruction of habitats and the environment - both the meat and plant-based food industry are culpable - along with many other industries e.g. oil, gas and mining. Honestly, in the grand scheme of things globally - I don't believe being vegan makes substantive difference. Nor do I see any rational argument to prioritise one form of life over an other, as deserving greater rights or protections. At best I find it is based on some sense of an affinity towards certain species - usually mammals. | |||
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" You have cherry picked only part of your post." No, I simplified it because this is a second rate Internet forum and not an academic platform. " Fact is areas are cleared for food production, the main being Soya, which is grown for the lucrative human consumption market. Animals consume by-products and waste from human food production. Vegetables and cereal based." The vast majority of soya produced (70-90%) is solely for animal feed. " "Animal populations are kept artifically high by enforced AI" Someone has definetly been sucked in by lies. An animal can no way be made to re-populate faster than nature allows. Gestation periods are set naturally and if the conditions arent right conception will not take place. Thats simple biology. Vast majority of animal breeding is done via natural service. " It isn't about the speed of gestation, it's about the amount of animals produced. " You really need to check your sources of information BIG TIME." I would say you should do exactly that. Fortunately for you, this forum doesn't parse links, which makes it harder to show you all the studies. If this thread still has space, I'll attempt to show you references when I'm back on my desktop. | |||
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" You have cherry picked only part of your post. No, I simplified it because this is a second rate Internet forum and not an academic platform. Fact is areas are cleared for food production, the main being Soya, which is grown for the lucrative human consumption market. Animals consume by-products and waste from human food production. Vegetables and cereal based. The vast majority of soya produced (70-90%) is solely for animal feed. "Animal populations are kept artifically high by enforced AI" Someone has definetly been sucked in by lies. An animal can no way be made to re-populate faster than nature allows. Gestation periods are set naturally and if the conditions arent right conception will not take place. Thats simple biology. Vast majority of animal breeding is done via natural service. It isn't about the speed of gestation, it's about the amount of animals produced. You really need to check your sources of information BIG TIME. I would say you should do exactly that. Fortunately for you, this forum doesn't parse links, which makes it harder to show you all the studies. If this thread still has space, I'll attempt to show you references when I'm back on my desktop. " Your quoting the use of the byproduct called soya meal. The primary use is soya oil, used for human consumption and highly lucrative. This is the usual vegan misconception. Soya meal is regularly excluded from livestock diets for enviromental reasons. | |||
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" Your quoting the use of the byproduct called soya meal. The primary use is soya oil, used for human consumption and highly lucrative. This is the usual vegan misconception. Soya meal is regularly excluded from livestock diets for enviromental reasons." Around 80% of soy becomes soy meal, and nearly all of that goes to animal feed, especially for poultry and pigs. Soy oil is valuable, but it's only about 18–20% of the bean. The majority of soy is grown to feed livestock, not people. | |||
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"I am vegan... I find out other people are vegan by accident... Usually when we are ordering food or coffee. My experience is that generally fab is very aggressive towards vegans" I find people in general are aggressive towards vegans/veggies x | |||
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"Unlike a vegan, swingers don’t usually tell you they’re swingers within the first 30 seconds of meeting them." ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | |||
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" Your quoting the use of the byproduct called soya meal. The primary use is soya oil, used for human consumption and highly lucrative. This is the usual vegan misconception. Soya meal is regularly excluded from livestock diets for enviromental reasons. Around 80% of soy becomes soy meal, and nearly all of that goes to animal feed, especially for poultry and pigs. Soy oil is valuable, but it's only about 18–20% of the bean. The majority of soy is grown to feed livestock, not people. " Typical vegan, not listening to the facts put in front of them. Soya is grown for the lucrative human market of soya oil. If it wasnt for that soya simply wouldn't be grown. | |||
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" Your quoting the use of the byproduct called soya meal. The primary use is soya oil, used for human consumption and highly lucrative. This is the usual vegan misconception. Soya meal is regularly excluded from livestock diets for enviromental reasons. Around 80% of soy becomes soy meal, and nearly all of that goes to animal feed, especially for poultry and pigs. Soy oil is valuable, but it's only about 18–20% of the bean. The majority of soy is grown to feed livestock, not people. Typical vegan, not listening to the facts put in front of them. Soya is grown for the lucrative human market of soya oil. If it wasnt for that soya simply wouldn't be grown." I can't make up my mind if you are just a troll, or truly ignorant | |||
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" Your quoting the use of the byproduct called soya meal. The primary use is soya oil, used for human consumption and highly lucrative. This is the usual vegan misconception. Soya meal is regularly excluded from livestock diets for enviromental reasons. Around 80% of soy becomes soy meal, and nearly all of that goes to animal feed, especially for poultry and pigs. Soy oil is valuable, but it's only about 18–20% of the bean. The majority of soy is grown to feed livestock, not people. Typical vegan, not listening to the facts put in front of them. Soya is grown for the lucrative human market of soya oil. If it wasnt for that soya simply wouldn't be grown." The facts; 'almost 80% of the world’s soybean crop is fed to livestock, especially for beef, chicken, egg and dairy production (milk, cheeses, butter, yogurt, etc). Soy oil is used for cooking and can also be found in margarine, chocolate, ice cream or baked goods, as well as in cosmetics or soaps.' https://wwf.panda.org/discover/our_focus/food_practice/sustainable_production/soy/ So everything you are saying is wrong. But as it's vegans who don't listen to facts put in front of them, you will presumably listen to the facts and admit you were wrong. Because otherwise it would be rather hypocritical of you, and I'm sure you're not a hypocrite. | |||
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" Your quoting the use of the byproduct called soya meal. The primary use is soya oil, used for human consumption and highly lucrative. This is the usual vegan misconception. Soya meal is regularly excluded from livestock diets for enviromental reasons. Around 80% of soy becomes soy meal, and nearly all of that goes to animal feed, especially for poultry and pigs. Soy oil is valuable, but it's only about 18–20% of the bean. The majority of soy is grown to feed livestock, not people. Typical vegan, not listening to the facts put in front of them. Soya is grown for the lucrative human market of soya oil. If it wasnt for that soya simply wouldn't be grown. The facts; 'almost 80% of the world’s soybean crop is fed to livestock, especially for beef, chicken, egg and dairy production (milk, cheeses, butter, yogurt, etc). Soy oil is used for cooking and can also be found in margarine, chocolate, ice cream or baked goods, as well as in cosmetics or soaps.' https://wwf.panda.org/discover/our_focus/food_practice/sustainable_production/soy/ So everything you are saying is wrong. But as it's vegans who don't listen to facts put in front of them, you will presumably listen to the facts and admit you were wrong. Because otherwise it would be rather hypocritical of you, and I'm sure you're not a hypocrite." I didnt dispute the by-product usage, Soya is grown for the lucrative oil for human consumption, as your stated yourself. The by-product is the meal for animal feed. Its exactly the same for all oil seeds, oil for humans,meal for animals. If it wasnt grown for the oil neither wouldnt be cost effective for use as an animal feed. Majority of non animal food waste goes for livestock feed, carrots,potatoes, bread,cakes etc if it wasnt for that vegan would be even more expensive. So by consuming those products you are also supporting the livestock industry Typical vegan propaganda. Half truths and lies. | |||
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" Your quoting the use of the byproduct called soya meal. The primary use is soya oil, used for human consumption and highly lucrative. This is the usual vegan misconception. Soya meal is regularly excluded from livestock diets for enviromental reasons. Around 80% of soy becomes soy meal, and nearly all of that goes to animal feed, especially for poultry and pigs. Soy oil is valuable, but it's only about 18–20% of the bean. The majority of soy is grown to feed livestock, not people. Typical vegan, not listening to the facts put in front of them. Soya is grown for the lucrative human market of soya oil. If it wasnt for that soya simply wouldn't be grown. I can't make up my mind if you are just a troll, or truly ignorant" Informed and educated with the facts, rather than listening to the misinformation that comes from those with an agenda. | |||
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"Is anyone interested in the original idea behind this thread e.g. does vegan + vegan make for a more successful meet ? It seems to have drifted somewhat " It depends on their diet. Free-range corn-fed vegans are delicious. | |||
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"Folks just don't like to acknowledge that all morals, values, ethics, rights etc. are merely artificial abstract constructs. Such nonsenses are designed deliberately to obscure the uncomfortable reality that homo sapiens is just another mammal. No more, no less. We are the only species that invents such constraints on behaviour - or needs to. Veganism and vegetarianism are all about allowing oneself to feel a totally unjustified smug superiority. Your position, while confidently expressed, rests on a reductionist view of human nature that, I’d argue, sells our species short. Yes, we are mammals. But we are also meaning-makers. The notion that morals, ethics, and values are "artificial constructs" is hardly a revelation—of course they are. So too are language, music, law, mathematics, and indeed the very concept of civilisation. That these things are constructed does not render them meaningless. Quite the contrary: it is our capacity to create such frameworks—to imagine better ways of being—that elevates us beyond the purely instinctive. As for veganism or vegetarianism being about “unjustified smug superiority,” I’d gently suggest that this says more about your perception of others’ motives than their reality. Speaking personally, my choice was born not of pride, but regret—a quiet reckoning with the consequences of habits I once accepted unthinkingly. If anything, it has made me more humble, not less. If moral constructs are inventions, then so too is cruelty—and we have the power to choose which we perpetuate. That seems to me a worthwhile constraint. I found that very well written, and constructed - yet I also find it offers nothing further than the original post. It's simply a personal choice to define something as cruel (the eating of animals essentially?) and by default other forms of plant life is not. I have no issue with personal choice to eat meat or not. It's when people believe they can make that choice for other people that it becomes a moral concern for me. Personally, I haven't met many vegans or vegetarians who believe they have such a right, but I would be morally opposed to anyone who did. I find statistics like 60% of mammalian life is livestock Vs 4% wildlife quite eye-opening. (by biomass) When it comes to the destruction of habitats and the environment - both the meat and plant-based food industry are culpable - along with many other industries e.g. oil, gas and mining. Honestly, in the grand scheme of things globally - I don't believe being vegan makes substantive difference. Nor do I see any rational argument to prioritise one form of life over an other, as deserving greater rights or protections. At best I find it is based on some sense of an affinity towards certain species - usually mammals. " Thank you for your thoughtful and well-composed reply. I really appreciated the respectful tone, and the way you articulated your perspective—it’s refreshing to have a proper exchange of ideas in a forum where nuance can so often be lost. You're right that the definition of cruelty involves a degree of personal interpretation. But I’d argue that while all life deserves respect, sentience—the ability to feel pain, fear, and emotion—does create a moral gradient for many of us. That’s not to say plants are insignificant, or that harm to them is irrelevant, but the capacity to suffer seems a reasonable line by which many people, myself included, draw ethical boundaries. I’m aware there are philosophies, like Jainism, which take this much further—avoiding harm to any living being, including the tiniest insect. While I don’t follow such a path myself, I have a quiet respect for that level of consistency, even if it’s impractical for most. For me, the choice to limit harm—imperfect as it may be—is a reflection of personal responsibility, not moral superiority. I also completely agree that it becomes problematic when anyone believes they have the right to make these choices for others. That’s not a stance I hold, nor one I respect. As with the discussion on teetotalism, it’s not about evangelising or claiming virtue, but about navigating the world with a degree of intention—especially in cultures where the norm is rarely questioned. As for measurable impact, I share your scepticism. In the grand scheme, no one lifestyle undoes systemic harm. But personal choices still carry weight, I believe—not because they solve everything, but because they reflect the kind of humans we choose to be in the face of complexity. Thank you again for your generous and balanced reply. It’s these kinds of exchanges that restore my faith in thoughtful discussion. Cymru am Byth | |||
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"Folks just don't like to acknowledge that all morals, values, ethics, rights etc. are merely artificial abstract constructs. Such nonsenses are designed deliberately to obscure the uncomfortable reality that homo sapiens is just another mammal. No more, no less. We are the only species that invents such constraints on behaviour - or needs to. Veganism and vegetarianism are all about allowing oneself to feel a totally unjustified smug superiority. Your position, while confidently expressed, rests on a reductionist view of human nature that, I’d argue, sells our species short. Yes, we are mammals. But we are also meaning-makers. The notion that morals, ethics, and values are "artificial constructs" is hardly a revelation—of course they are. So too are language, music, law, mathematics, and indeed the very concept of civilisation. That these things are constructed does not render them meaningless. Quite the contrary: it is our capacity to create such frameworks—to imagine better ways of being—that elevates us beyond the purely instinctive. As for veganism or vegetarianism being about “unjustified smug superiority,” I’d gently suggest that this says more about your perception of others’ motives than their reality. Speaking personally, my choice was born not of pride, but regret—a quiet reckoning with the consequences of habits I once accepted unthinkingly. If anything, it has made me more humble, not less. If moral constructs are inventions, then so too is cruelty—and we have the power to choose which we perpetuate. That seems to me a worthwhile constraint. I found that very well written, and constructed - yet I also find it offers nothing further than the original post. It's simply a personal choice to define something as cruel (the eating of animals essentially?) and by default other forms of plant life is not. I have no issue with personal choice to eat meat or not. It's when people believe they can make that choice for other people that it becomes a moral concern for me. Personally, I haven't met many vegans or vegetarians who believe they have such a right, but I would be morally opposed to anyone who did. I find statistics like 60% of mammalian life is livestock Vs 4% wildlife quite eye-opening. (by biomass) When it comes to the destruction of habitats and the environment - both the meat and plant-based food industry are culpable - along with many other industries e.g. oil, gas and mining. Honestly, in the grand scheme of things globally - I don't believe being vegan makes substantive difference. Nor do I see any rational argument to prioritise one form of life over an other, as deserving greater rights or protections. At best I find it is based on some sense of an affinity towards certain species - usually mammals. Thank you for your thoughtful and well-composed reply. I really appreciated the respectful tone, and the way you articulated your perspective—it’s refreshing to have a proper exchange of ideas in a forum where nuance can so often be lost. You're right that the definition of cruelty involves a degree of personal interpretation. But I’d argue that while all life deserves respect, sentience—the ability to feel pain, fear, and emotion—does create a moral gradient for many of us. That’s not to say plants are insignificant, or that harm to them is irrelevant, but the capacity to suffer seems a reasonable line by which many people, myself included, draw ethical boundaries. I’m aware there are philosophies, like Jainism, which take this much further—avoiding harm to any living being, including the tiniest insect. While I don’t follow such a path myself, I have a quiet respect for that level of consistency, even if it’s impractical for most. For me, the choice to limit harm—imperfect as it may be—is a reflection of personal responsibility, not moral superiority. I also completely agree that it becomes problematic when anyone believes they have the right to make these choices for others. That’s not a stance I hold, nor one I respect. As with the discussion on teetotalism, it’s not about evangelising or claiming virtue, but about navigating the world with a degree of intention—especially in cultures where the norm is rarely questioned. As for measurable impact, I share your scepticism. In the grand scheme, no one lifestyle undoes systemic harm. But personal choices still carry weight, I believe—not because they solve everything, but because they reflect the kind of humans we choose to be in the face of complexity. Thank you again for your generous and balanced reply. It’s these kinds of exchanges that restore my faith in thoughtful discussion. Cymru am Byth " You've reminded me of the story of Ashoka. Whose anger at injustice, twisted into vengeful cruelty and lust for power. Yet through the painful consequences became a virtuous leader. To borrow from Sartre rules are tools an intelligent person can utilise to ethically justify any choice. And even not to choose is a choice. I agree when faced with moral complexity, intention is important, and the ethical person is one whom can justify their decisions - whilst being mindful not to impose their will on others. Yet I do not believe good intention, absolves us of the consequences of our actions. My daughter once said to me - It would be better to only kill the largest animals to eat, because then we take less life. We would have to kill hundreds of chickens or millions or thousands of snails to produce the food of a single whale. The argument for sentience, I do appreciate. However, I find it originates from a belief in some form of essential spirit or soul. Some forms of life are determined to have this quality, whilst others do not. The basis for this seems to be that certain forms of life are more like us than others. Yet what we understand of the world now, biologically, does not support this concept of a soul, sentience, or it's prioritisation over other forms of life. Every form of life is important and our intellect, I believe ought to be focused on a harmonious existence with our habitat. For me the principle of living sustainably, not taking more than we need, be it animal, vegetable or mineral - is what I find the most balanced in terms of virtuous intent and consequential outcome. | |||
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"Folks just don't like to acknowledge that all morals, values, ethics, rights etc. are merely artificial abstract constructs. Such nonsenses are designed deliberately to obscure the uncomfortable reality that homo sapiens is just another mammal. No more, no less. We are the only species that invents such constraints on behaviour - or needs to. Veganism and vegetarianism are all about allowing oneself to feel a totally unjustified smug superiority. Your position, while confidently expressed, rests on a reductionist view of human nature that, I’d argue, sells our species short. Yes, we are mammals. But we are also meaning-makers. The notion that morals, ethics, and values are "artificial constructs" is hardly a revelation—of course they are. So too are language, music, law, mathematics, and indeed the very concept of civilisation. That these things are constructed does not render them meaningless. Quite the contrary: it is our capacity to create such frameworks—to imagine better ways of being—that elevates us beyond the purely instinctive. As for veganism or vegetarianism being about “unjustified smug superiority,” I’d gently suggest that this says more about your perception of others’ motives than their reality. Speaking personally, my choice was born not of pride, but regret—a quiet reckoning with the consequences of habits I once accepted unthinkingly. If anything, it has made me more humble, not less. If moral constructs are inventions, then so too is cruelty—and we have the power to choose which we perpetuate. That seems to me a worthwhile constraint. I found that very well written, and constructed - yet I also find it offers nothing further than the original post. It's simply a personal choice to define something as cruel (the eating of animals essentially?) and by default other forms of plant life is not. I have no issue with personal choice to eat meat or not. It's when people believe they can make that choice for other people that it becomes a moral concern for me. Personally, I haven't met many vegans or vegetarians who believe they have such a right, but I would be morally opposed to anyone who did. I find statistics like 60% of mammalian life is livestock Vs 4% wildlife quite eye-opening. (by biomass) When it comes to the destruction of habitats and the environment - both the meat and plant-based food industry are culpable - along with many other industries e.g. oil, gas and mining. Honestly, in the grand scheme of things globally - I don't believe being vegan makes substantive difference. Nor do I see any rational argument to prioritise one form of life over an other, as deserving greater rights or protections. At best I find it is based on some sense of an affinity towards certain species - usually mammals. Thank you for your thoughtful and well-composed reply. I really appreciated the respectful tone, and the way you articulated your perspective—it’s refreshing to have a proper exchange of ideas in a forum where nuance can so often be lost. You're right that the definition of cruelty involves a degree of personal interpretation. But I’d argue that while all life deserves respect, sentience—the ability to feel pain, fear, and emotion—does create a moral gradient for many of us. That’s not to say plants are insignificant, or that harm to them is irrelevant, but the capacity to suffer seems a reasonable line by which many people, myself included, draw ethical boundaries. I’m aware there are philosophies, like Jainism, which take this much further—avoiding harm to any living being, including the tiniest insect. While I don’t follow such a path myself, I have a quiet respect for that level of consistency, even if it’s impractical for most. For me, the choice to limit harm—imperfect as it may be—is a reflection of personal responsibility, not moral superiority. I also completely agree that it becomes problematic when anyone believes they have the right to make these choices for others. That’s not a stance I hold, nor one I respect. As with the discussion on teetotalism, it’s not about evangelising or claiming virtue, but about navigating the world with a degree of intention—especially in cultures where the norm is rarely questioned. As for measurable impact, I share your scepticism. In the grand scheme, no one lifestyle undoes systemic harm. But personal choices still carry weight, I believe—not because they solve everything, but because they reflect the kind of humans we choose to be in the face of complexity. Thank you again for your generous and balanced reply. It’s these kinds of exchanges that restore my faith in thoughtful discussion. Cymru am Byth You've reminded me of the story of Ashoka. Whose anger at injustice, twisted into vengeful cruelty and lust for power. Yet through the painful consequences became a virtuous leader. To borrow from Sartre rules are tools an intelligent person can utilise to ethically justify any choice. And even not to choose is a choice. I agree when faced with moral complexity, intention is important, and the ethical person is one whom can justify their decisions - whilst being mindful not to impose their will on others. Yet I do not believe good intention, absolves us of the consequences of our actions. My daughter once said to me - It would be better to only kill the largest animals to eat, because then we take less life. We would have to kill hundreds of chickens or millions or thousands of snails to produce the food of a single whale. The argument for sentience, I do appreciate. However, I find it originates from a belief in some form of essential spirit or soul. Some forms of life are determined to have this quality, whilst others do not. The basis for this seems to be that certain forms of life are more like us than others. Yet what we understand of the world now, biologically, does not support this concept of a soul, sentience, or it's prioritisation over other forms of life. Every form of life is important and our intellect, I believe ought to be focused on a harmonious existence with our habitat. For me the principle of living sustainably, not taking more than we need, be it animal, vegetable or mineral - is what I find the most balanced in terms of virtuous intent and consequential outcome." Thank you for such a rich and considered reply. Your reference to Ashoka genuinely struck a chord. I’ll admit I hadn’t explored his story in depth before, but I will now. That arc—from vengeance to virtue, through the painful consequences of one’s own actions—is both sobering and strangely hopeful. It brought to mind Shakespeare’s line from The Tempest: “The rarer action is in virtue than in vengeance.” Enlightenment, whether ancient or modern, so often begins in remorse, as its been in my case. But my own shift toward a more mindful way of living didn’t come solely through doctrine or philosophy, but through experience—something personally transformative a few years ago. It wasn’t a tragedy, and I don’t mention it for sympathy, but it changed my lens. Not toward moral certainty, but toward a quieter, steadier intention about the kind of life I want to lead. Your daughter’s comment stayed with me—it’s stark and arresting in its logic. It reminded me of something Eugene Sledge wrote in With the Old Breed. After surviving the Pacific war, he returned home not hardened, but gentled—drawn to nature, and eventually becoming a naturalist. That kind of shift—unpublicised, rooted in what one has seen—is one I deeply respect. I also take your point on sentience. I don’t see it as a metaphysical ranking of worth, but rather a practical guide for restraint. If we acknowledge suffering in others—whether human or non-human—it seems to me that we carry some responsibility to reduce it where we can. Not because those lives are more important, but because they are more vulnerable. It may not be as highbrow as Ashoka or Sartre, but Paul McCartney’s line lingers with me too: “If slaughterhouses had glass walls, we’d all be vegetarian.” The moment something is seen—truly seen—denial becomes harder to live with. That was certainly true for me. But more broadly, I wholeheartedly agree: the principle of sustainability—taking no more than we need, whatever its source—is the surest way I’ve found to make peace with consequence. Not perfection. Just proportion, and care. Thank you again for such a generous and thoughtful exchange. It's a rare pleasure to share conversation with this much reflection and mutual respect. “This world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel.” Walpole | |||
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"Does anyone else feel like ChatGPT is just having a conversation with itself at this point? I've read about Dead Internet Theory but didn't think I'd see such clear examples of it so soon." Dammit. All that reading, thinking, listening, quiet reflection, absorption of experiences, and learning over the decades —turns out I could’ve just invested in better internet connection. What a waste ! | |||
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"Does anyone else feel like ChatGPT is just having a conversation with itself at this point? I've read about Dead Internet Theory but didn't think I'd see such clear examples of it so soon." ChatGPT just ends up having a non sense checked conversation with itself generated by those who have no understanding of what they are actually posting. Having your own opinion is clouded by this. | |||
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"Does anyone else feel like ChatGPT is just having a conversation with itself at this point? I've read about Dead Internet Theory but didn't think I'd see such clear examples of it so soon." Yeah. All the thanking each other for valuable contributions rather than the more usual mud slinging ![]() | |||
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