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Health and Safety ??
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"The inquest is being held this week of the epilepsy sufferer who had a fitand fell into three deep duck pond and drowned. The fire crew who attended the scene were refused permission to enter the water by the commanding officer present at the scene. Defending his decision at the inquest the same officer said, 'the officers we had were trained only to enter ankle deep water, which is a level one, so we waited another half hour for the arrival of level two officers who can enter water up to chest height'. How much longer must we put up with this kind of politically correct health and safety shite ?? " Or would you rather that something unthinkable happened to one of the fire fighters, they tripped and drowned and, because they had not recieved the relevant training, their insurer would not validate the life insurance claim and their family was left without any compensation? The Healoth and Safety industry does not drive it's self. All rules and regulations are there for a reason....... | |||
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"The inquest is being held this week of the epilepsy sufferer who had a fitand fell into three deep duck pond and drowned. The fire crew who attended the scene were refused permission to enter the water by the commanding officer present at the scene. Defending his decision at the inquest the same officer said, 'the officers we had were trained only to enter ankle deep water, which is a level one, so we waited another half hour for the arrival of level two officers who can enter water up to chest height'. How much longer must we put up with this kind of politically correct health and safety shite ?? Or would you rather that something unthinkable happened to one of the fire fighters, they tripped and drowned and, because they had not recieved the relevant training, their insurer would not validate the life insurance claim and their family was left without any compensation? The Healoth and Safety industry does not drive it's self. All rules and regulations are there for a reason......." Are you having a laugh.....a team of fire fighters cant wade into a waist high duck pond for fear they may trip and drown ?? | |||
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"Was the epilectic already dead when the crew arrived?, or flailing around in the water? I recon the crew think thier CO is a twat "I certainly think he is a twat. My son is thinking of joining the fire service and i have told him not to even think about it unless he is prepared to put his life on the line for some one else !! | |||
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"The inquest is being held this week of the epilepsy sufferer who had a fitand fell into three deep duck pond and drowned. i would have thought after falling into the first two deep duck ponds,they would have learnt their lesson" yes point taken !! a typo error on my part.....prob due to the fact that i didnt conduct a risk assesment before sitting down at the keyboard ?? | |||
"The inquest is being held this week of the epilepsy sufferer who had a fitand fell into three deep duck pond and drowned. The fire crew who attended the scene were refused permission to enter the water by the commanding officer present at the scene. Defending his decision at the inquest the same officer said, 'the officers we had were trained only to enter ankle deep water, which is a level one, so we waited another half hour for the arrival of level two officers who can enter water up to chest height'. How much longer must we put up with this kind of politically correct health and safety shite ?? " remember a few years ago when 4 firefighters local to me lost their lives entering a factory that was on fire?? their bosses are now facing manslaughter charges on the basis that they didnt follow health and safety precautions. It may seem ridiculous to you but eve emergency services have to have safety procedures. why risk further unecessary loss of life? | |||
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"Source? " chocolate please  | |||
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"The rules and regulations aren't the problem - it's the application of the law. " I agree. People, in particular those in charge of H&S or a team are shit scared of been either sued or charged with corporate manslaughter that they lose sight of what they are there for. The police, FARS, ambulance are there to protect life and property, if that means putting their life at risk (unsure if 3 feet of still water is a risk though) then thats what they should be allowed to do. Note the 'allowed' bit, Id bet good money the crew wanted to go in and help until stopped by the CO. Steve | |||
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"The rules and regulations aren't the problem - it's the application of the law. There is nowhere in the law that states that fire fighters can't enter water, that has come from a decision made on the day by the commanding officer. Nor are hanging baskets or conkers banned etc Blaming the regulations is pretty pointless as very little of it is prescriptive but relies instead on an assessment of risk (note - risk, not hazard) by a competent person. The problem is that we have become risk averse, much of which comes from fear of litigation. Some of that is compounded by odd decisions made by magistrates and judges. " Spot on | |||
"Just a question to any non-emergency service people - do you believe that emergency service workers are immune to injury? That they can breathe underwater, resist fire and that punches from druggies are magically turned away by an unseen hand? Every worker is responsible for their own safety, and nobody in the ES obliged to risk their lives. Many do, and are badly injured, and get fuck-all recompense. I speak from experience." Many of my pals who are in the Emergency services say they joined to help people, and that included saving people. No, I dont think they are immune to injury. But if a team of 4 or 5 members of the Fire and RESCUE service cant come up with a safe means of rescuing someone in 3 feet of water then its time to pack in. If it was a 1 on 1 rescue then yes, its very risky. If there was 2 there, then not so bad…. but if a whole squad from a tender, then setting up a rope with an anchor point to one rescuer would of sufficed to pull him out if he had got into difficulty. Steve | |||
"The inquest is being held this week of the epilepsy sufferer who had a fitand fell into three deep duck pond and drowned. The fire crew who attended the scene were refused permission to enter the water by the commanding officer present at the scene. Defending his decision at the inquest the same officer said, 'the officers we had were trained only to enter ankle deep water, which is a level one, so we waited another half hour for the arrival of level two officers who can enter water up to chest height'. How much longer must we put up with this kind of politically correct health and safety shite ?? " Sounds like a case of damned if you do and damned if he didn't. Common seance should really prevail at times.  | |||
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"My Dad waded into a pond to save a little girl when we were nippers. It was instinctive and if he has not noticed her and waded in she would have drowned. How can anyone stand by and watch such a thing. ." And if your dad had waded in to save a drowning person and that person grabbed hold of him and were flailing around so much that they pulled him under and they both drowned, or only he did, would you be so understanding then? There is always more than what is reported in the media, I have not heard about this case talked about here so I don't have an opinion, but its not always the best course of action to wade in without assessing any risk or the consequences thereafter, even though most of us would naturally want to | |||
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"This is so sad, they assumed because he was not moving he was dead they'd go for a body recovery. No matter how you look at it was not their decision to make, they should still attempt to save life and let a qualified doctor decide if he was dead. They must all feel real bad, as I bet they knew they should have entered the water, irrespective of how cold it was or how deep it was, what do they do in smoke filled building - just leave casualties overcome by smoke because they are not moving - they should always attempt to save life, it the key part of their job. " what do they do in smoke filled buildings? they assess the situation in accordance wih the regulations the fire service set out. its what they have to do. yes it is horrible and i bet that not one of them were happy doing it however if they want to keep their jobs and avoid any potential law suits its what they have to do. ok so this was only 3ft of water...but how many people have drowned in a bath? yes common sese would say go in and do it, but ultimately the crew commader has a duty of care to his staff and given the information he had at the time he felt necessary to wait. There is an inquest as stated in the OP and hopefully this will highlight the limitations that certain legislation has put o the service and effect some change however i dont think he should be the one questioned over this, he was doing his job | |||
"we have fire extinguishers at work but we are told we cant use them,as we are not trained fire marshalls." having been a staff safety rep......you should have been told how to use the extinguishers (CO2 extinguishers can be dangerous as the base and nozle cool to around -30 and your skin will stick to them if you are touching them when it's used) Wwhich extinguisher to use for which type of fire (dont use a water extinguisher on an electrical fire) and the that you should only use then if you, or someone else is in extreeme danger (ie cant escape). This is because buildings are insured and can be replaced, people cant be...... | |||
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" There is so much red tape now for us to go out on our fishing boat, we can't even have a piss over the side, without getting accused of diluting the bloody water. "lol | |||
"we have fire extinguishers at work but we are told we cant use them,as we are not trained fire marshalls." Quite right...but you dont have to be a 'fire marshall' (latest money making scheme for private H/S firms).. However, only people who are trained and competent should use extinguishers..point the wrong one at the wrong fire and it could cost you your life.. The official line from the fire brigade is just leave the building...thats also the reason why fire extinguishers are placed near exits..in case you need them to get out...not to grab one and go back. | |||
"yes it is horrible and i bet that not one of them were happy doing it however if they want to keep their jobs and avoid any potential law suits its what they have to do. " Personally speaking, the chance of saving someone's life is more important than keeping a job or facing a lawsuit. " Hey boss, I quit, just going for a swim " | |||
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"It's a bit sad when an 'exception' case comes to light and common sense tells us what should have happened..... it's sad because we start to forget how many 100's of lives these health and safety gone made rules actually do save and how many 10's of 1000's of serious injuries they prevent." If I may beg to differ, bringing such issues to the media can increase public awareness and help sort out issues in the system that need to be tweaked. Apart from the litigation bollocks, I'm sure those involved in these issues has everybody's best interests at heart. | |||
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"It's a bit sad when an 'exception' case comes to light and common sense tells us what should have happened..... it's sad because we start to forget how many 100's of lives these health and safety gone made rules actually do save and how many 10's of 1000's of serious injuries they prevent. If I may beg to differ, bringing such issues to the media can increase public awareness and help sort out issues in the system that need to be tweaked. Apart from the litigation bollocks, I'm sure those involved in these issues has everybody's best interests at heart." You may differ. However, I believe the inquest, the investigation by the H&SE and the fire brigade will look at what went wrong. The vast majority of Joe Public aren’t qualified, aren’t able to be objective and talk bollox. Thus the media often cause more harm than good… more often than not encouraging the attitude of “it’s health and safety gone mad” blaming H&S rather than one person's application of it …. which undermines the importance of H&S and in turn encourages people to not take the serious stuff so seriously. | |||
"It's a bit sad when an 'exception' case comes to light and common sense tells us what should have happened..... it's sad because we start to forget how many 100's of lives these health and safety gone made rules actually do save and how many 10's of 1000's of serious injuries they prevent. If I may beg to differ, bringing such issues to the media can increase public awareness and help sort out issues in the system that need to be tweaked. Apart from the litigation bollocks, I'm sure those involved in these issues has everybody's best interests at heart. You may differ. However, I believe the inquest, the investigation by the H&SE and the fire brigade will look at what went wrong. The vast majority of Joe Public aren’t qualified, aren’t able to be objective and talk bollox. Thus the media often cause more harm than good… more often than not encouraging the attitude of “it’s health and safety gone mad” blaming H&S rather than one person's application of it …. which undermines the importance of H&S and in turn encourages people to not take the serious stuff so seriously. " I very much agree. far beter to live in a country where on person a week dies due to h&s too zealously applied than 200 a week dieing on building sites with another 500 loosing parts of their bodies in factories etc because h&s is not applied effectively enough...... h&s creates a culture where unsafe practices are not tolerated just because its cheaper than to do things safely.... | |||
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"I can't believe all the apologists for bad service there are these days! One of the reasons the country is in such a bad social state! Danger is all part of the job of the emergency services! Many years ago I applied to join the Fire Service, but upon climbing the ladder in the training hall (open day) I realised that it was not for me. One thing I was told though, that it was a dangerous job and at some time it may be necessary to put myself in harms way to save others. That was part of the job! These days H&S rules and maybe it does save people, but there are circumstances where it can also cost lives. Does anyone else remember the case of a family BBQ where an estranged husband went in and killed most of them? The ambulance service were held back by the police even though there were neighbours aready trying to help the dead and dying! They waited half an hour and more died becase of it! If you take a job in the emergency services, you should accept risk as well. Just imagine if our soldiers out in Afghanistan refused to go on patrol because they may get hurt! THEY are the hero's" At the risk of being shouted at, but you brought the forces into it, but dont we spend billions on building tanks jets body armour health care etc for the services precicely to give them as much assistance as is reasonably practicable, h&s comes under attack because the rich (and im sorry its come back to this argument, but it always does...) want to diminish the importance of our protection because good practie, while saving lives, costs money. the rich control the media (where there is very little plurality and so you very rarely hear the opposite view.... please, dont believe the hype | |||
"After managing to find the incident on Google ( thank you Daily Mail ), me wonders, where was Joe Public when this happenned ? Surely they would have been allowed to wade in and save the man, or am I being naive on this ?" They were too busy filming his fit on their phones.... after one of them called 999 of course. I haven't read the story, so I am not sure how long he had been a floater/sinker in the water before the fire bods arrived. | |||
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"how did the co become a co if he's not a fully qualified fire fighter? if he is fully qualified why didnt he go in to try to save this person?!!!!!!!!!! "A C.O's job is to lead.... he doesn't have to be qualified to do everything. | |||
"After managing to find the incident on Google ( thank you Daily Mail ), me wonders, where was Joe Public when this happenned ? Surely they would have been allowed to wade in and save the man, or am I being naive on this ? They were too busy filming his fit on their phones.... after one of them called 999 of course. I haven't read the story, so I am not sure how long he had been a floater/sinker in the water before the fire bods arrived. " As it goes ..... .... once saved a couple of Germans who were getting pulled out by rips on the Atlantic coast of France. Was playing with the dog down by the sea. A freulein was shouting "helfer" about 10 yards out, big waves. I get out to her and she says "no no, my husband", look over and there's this guy way way out, what do you do ? So off I went. 20 minutes later I got him back in, not doing much more than holding his hand and timing waves with him. THEN, had to go back again and get the freulien that was still paddling around uselessly in the same spot. "rendezvous" the next day waiting to see the hopefully well rich Germans again, playing with the dog again, when I get told by a bunch of French. "Don't go into the water, there is a corpse" What the fuck ? Go out get corpse, try mouth to mouth ( chap vomitted up paella I believe ), helicopter, pissed off lifeguards because I'd risked my life. Corpses are heavy, as was the experience. Still pissed off with that French lot. The water is not safe because there's someone floating in it ? | |||
" We were told in a H&SD brief that if there was a fire and there was a disabled person in the building that we should close them in a cupboard and leave the building to report it to the fire service. Not one of us could even think of doing such a thing." Entirely incorrect under the DDA - the Fire Service would go bonkers if they heard it and possibly even issue an improvement notice. | |||
"we have fire extinguishers at work but we are told we cant use them,as we are not trained fire marshalls." Also incorrect - another case of someone misguidedly saying things they think will reduce risk instead of dealing with the problem correctly. Managers like that are the bane of my life. | |||
" We were told in a H&SD brief that if there was a fire and there was a disabled person in the building that we should close them in a cupboard and leave the building to report it to the fire service. Not one of us could even think of doing such a thing. Entirely incorrect under the DDA - the Fire Service would go bonkers if they heard it and possibly even issue an improvement notice. " I wonder if the cupboard could be counted as a refuge area? besies aren't all work places supposed to have an evacu chair? | |||
"we have fire extinguishers at work but we are told we cant use them,as we are not trained fire marshalls. Also incorrect - another case of someone misguidedly saying things they think will reduce risk instead of dealing with the problem correctly. Managers like that are the bane of my life. " i did post about this...... | |||
" We were told in a H&SD brief that if there was a fire and there was a disabled person in the building that we should close them in a cupboard and leave the building to report it to the fire service. Not one of us could even think of doing such a thing. Entirely incorrect under the DDA - the Fire Service would go bonkers if they heard it and possibly even issue an improvement notice. I wonder if the cupboard could be counted as a refuge area? besies aren't all work places supposed to have an evacu chair? " It's not a legal requirement no, only to have a PEEP in place. And yes I did see your post but only after I'd posted in frustration at the rubbish procedures that the ill-informed bring in because they are too lazy/scared to manage situations. | |||
" We were told in a H&SD brief that if there was a fire and there was a disabled person in the building that we should close them in a cupboard and leave the building to report it to the fire service. Not one of us could even think of doing such a thing. Entirely incorrect under the DDA - the Fire Service would go bonkers if they heard it and possibly even issue an improvement notice. I wonder if the cupboard could be counted as a refuge area? besies aren't all work places supposed to have an evacu chair? It's not a legal requirement no, only to have a PEEP in place. And yes I did see your post but only after I'd posted in frustration at the rubbish procedures that the ill-informed bring in because they are too lazy/scared to manage situations. " management are shit arent they?  | |||
"management are shit arent they? "Some of them render me incapable of moving in fear of commiting murder.... Some of them are great and know what they're doing :D | |||
".... I'd posted in frustration at the rubbish procedures that the ill-informed bring in because they are too lazy/scared to manage situations. " Is it always the ill informed bringing procedures in or is it sometimes the hard of thinking who twist it and then go off half cocked because they don’t understand why they are told to do some of the things they are told to do. | |||
" .... I'd posted in frustration at the rubbish procedures that the ill-informed bring in because they are too lazy/scared to manage situations. Is it always the ill informed bringing procedures in or is it sometimes the hard of thinking who twist it and then go off half cocked because they don’t understand why they are told to do some of the things they are told to do." A mixture in my experience, I meant ill-informed in the sense of having limited understanding rather than told the wrong thing. | |||
".... I'd posted in frustration at the rubbish procedures that the ill-informed bring in because they are too lazy/scared to manage situations. Is it always the ill informed bringing procedures in or is it sometimes the hard of thinking who twist it and then go off half cocked because they don’t understand why they are told to do some of the things they are told to do." but that's a traiing issue. some of the profesionals have their heads up their arses too | |||
" .... I'd posted in frustration at the rubbish procedures that the ill-informed bring in because they are too lazy/scared to manage situations. Is it always the ill informed bringing procedures in or is it sometimes the hard of thinking who twist it and then go off half cocked because they don’t understand why they are told to do some of the things they are told to do. A mixture in my experience, I meant ill-informed in the sense of having limited understanding rather than told the wrong thing. " And I meant those who have been told the right thing... then because they don't like the sound of it, they tell the special edited version to other people to make it sound more like "health and safety has gone mad". | |||
"...I meant those who have been told the right thing... then because they don't like the sound of it, they tell the special edited version to other people to make it sound more like "health and safety has gone mad"." Interesting one and I think must be times it happens although I've not come across it myself. What I get a lot of is the "let's try and use safety to get something we want" so - I have a bad hand caused entirely by my mouse, nothing whatsoever to do with the fact I play PS and text constantly. Or, I don't want to do this task so I'll say I think X is a high risk so hopefully they'll ban it. Sigh | |||
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"I recall a guy in a wheel chair working on the 3rd or 4th floor of a building… for London Transport and he worked for the department which looked at helping people with disabilities access public transport. In the event of a fire he was to be left in the building. He had a pager type device to notify the fire marshal where he was, so the fire brigade could be told. His colleagues when told they had to leave him all jumped up and down saying it was so very wrong and how they would not leave him in the building. If you spoke to the guy in the wheelchair and asked him what he wanted…. I don’t want the fire brigade to have 2 or 3 people to rescue when they already have me to deal with…. and the last thing I want is for one of this lot to drop me down the stairs and break my neck as well as my back…. never mind injuries they might sustain. The ‘special edited’ version became…. “we’re not allowed to help people out of the building because of H&S manual handling”. " Makes a much better story doesn't it | |||
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"I can't believe all the apologists for bad service there are these days! One of the reasons the country is in such a bad social state! Danger is all part of the job of the emergency services! Many years ago I applied to join the Fire Service, but upon climbing the ladder in the training hall (open day) I realised that it was not for me. One thing I was told though, that it was a dangerous job and at some time it may be necessary to put myself in harms way to save others. That was part of the job! These days H&S rules and maybe it does save people, but there are circumstances where it can also cost lives. Does anyone else remember the case of a family BBQ where an estranged husband went in and killed most of them? The ambulance service were held back by the police even though there were neighbours aready trying to help the dead and dying! They waited half an hour and more died becase of it! If you take a job in the emergency services, you should accept risk as well. Just imagine if our soldiers out in Afghanistan refused to go on patrol because they may get hurt! THEY are the hero's" So you bottled out of climbing a ladder, but expect everyone else to risk their lives for you? Very typical of today's "I'll do what I like, someone else will save my arse" kind of citizen. | |||
"The inquest is being held this week of the epilepsy sufferer who had a fitand fell into three deep duck pond and drowned. The fire crew who attended the scene were refused permission to enter the water by the commanding officer present at the scene. Defending his decision at the inquest the same officer said, 'the officers we had were trained only to enter ankle deep water, which is a level one, so we waited another half hour for the arrival of level two officers who can enter water up to chest height'. How much longer must we put up with this kind of politically correct health and safety shite ?? " What does political correctness have to do with health and safety? 
The fire officer made the wrong call, he judged that the man was dead and that there was no urgency, that wasn't his decision to make. This case has nothing to do with health and safety, if he thought the man was alive he would have rescued him.
Unless he also called the man an epileptic twunt i dont see where political correctness comes into it at all. | |||
"So you bottled out of climbing a ladder, but expect everyone else to risk their lives for you? Very typical of today's "I'll do what I like, someone else will save my arse" kind of citizen. " Oh, come on....I asume you are taking the piss. I don't agree with posters opinions, but if you can't shoot a rifle, does that make you a coward? I can't climb very high ladders as I get very giddly and feel that I am falling (I find it dificult to stand on a chair and strech to put up christmass decorations, bucause I feel so unsafe) does that make me a coward? | |||
"So you bottled out of climbing a ladder, but expect everyone else to risk their lives for you? Very typical of today's "I'll do what I like, someone else will save my arse" kind of citizen. Oh, come on....I asume you are taking the piss. I don't agree with posters opinions, but if you can't shoot a rifle, does that make you a coward? I can't climb very high ladders as I get very giddly and feel that I am falling (I find it dificult to stand on a chair and strech to put up christmass decorations, bucause I feel so unsafe) does that make me a coward?" Did you go for a job in the fire service without checking if heights frightened you first? | |||
"So you bottled out of climbing a ladder, but expect everyone else to risk their lives for you? Very typical of today's "I'll do what I like, someone else will save my arse" kind of citizen. Oh, come on....I asume you are taking the piss. I don't agree with posters opinions, but if you can't shoot a rifle, does that make you a coward? I can't climb very high ladders as I get very giddly and feel that I am falling (I find it dificult to stand on a chair and strech to put up christmass decorations, bucause I feel so unsafe) does that make me a coward? Did you go for a job in the fire service without checking if heights frightened you first?" Fair point, no I didn't (I am too y anyway) but I did try to join up at 17 to be told by the Sgt that while he'd love to sign me up I couldn't because of my asthma.....Does that make me a coward? Does that mean that I am part of the society you describe? | |||
"So you bottled out of climbing a ladder, but expect everyone else to risk their lives for you? Very typical of today's "I'll do what I like, someone else will save my arse" kind of citizen. " Firstly, I didn't "bottle out" Where you got that from I have no idea! Just twisting to make a point, I suppose! I tried to climb the ladder in full gear (I assume it was full) and carrying a 40pound backpack on my back. I physically couldn't do it! Secondly, Hell yes! I do expect people who have gone into the emergency services to "save my arse" if I need them to! That is what I and everyone else pays them for! It is not a case of doing what I want, I couldn't do it! Would you want a fireman who cannot do the job, rescuing you? | |||
"So you bottled out of climbing a ladder, but expect everyone else to risk their lives for you? Very typical of today's "I'll do what I like, someone else will save my arse" kind of citizen. Firstly, I didn't "bottle out" Where you got that from I have no idea! Just twisting to make a point, I suppose! I tried to climb the ladder in full gear (I assume it was full) and carrying a 40pound backpack on my back. I physically couldn't do it! Secondly, Hell yes! I do expect people who have gone into the emergency services to "save my arse" if I need them to! That is what I and everyone else pays them for! It is not a case of doing what I want, I couldn't do it! Would you want a fireman who cannot do the job, rescuing you? "You obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about. Nowhere on a contract of employment for either the fire service or ambulance service does it state that risking your life is an essential part of the job. The staff that do it, do it because they are caring professionals, but they're not stupid. Someone elses' life is not always worth risking your own for, and having fatherless children and a husbandless wife. Tell me, would you risk your life to save the life of a convicted paedophile who was trying to commit suicide? | |||
"You obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about. Nowhere on a contract of employment for either the fire service or ambulance service does it state that risking your life is an essential part of the job. The staff that do it, do it because they are caring professionals, but they're not stupid. Someone elses' life is not always worth risking your own for, and having fatherless children and a husbandless wife. Tell me, would you risk your life to save the life of a convicted paedophile who was trying to commit suicide?" Who is a fireman, policeman or anyone else to decide whos life is worth saving and whos is not? No one is paid to make these decisions and I would like to see your doctorate in moral philosophy before I agreed to let you chose.... You are right, though, that it is not in the contract of employemtn for anyone to stupidly risk their lives under any circumstances, sio I asume you are in egreement with me when I say that Heath and Safety legeslation is a good thing and protects everyone in the workplace? | |||
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"You obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about. Nowhere on a contract of employment for either the fire service or ambulance service does it state that risking your life is an essential part of the job. The staff that do it, do it because they are caring professionals, but they're not stupid. Someone elses' life is not always worth risking your own for, and having fatherless children and a husbandless wife. Tell me, would you risk your life to save the life of a convicted paedophile who was trying to commit suicide? Who is a fireman, policeman or anyone else to decide whos life is worth saving and whos is not? No one is paid to make these decisions and I would like to see your doctorate in moral philosophy before I agreed to let you chose.... You are right, though, that it is not in the contract of employemtn for anyone to stupidly risk their lives under any circumstances, sio I asume you are in egreement with me when I say that Heath and Safety legeslation is a good thing and protects everyone in the workplace?" Exactly. ES staff don't have the luxury of deciding who is worth risking their own life for. But when you've done it for 18 years, risking your life several times a day for pissheads, druggies and Elton John fans, you burn out very quickly. There are fewer and fewer heroes queuing up for the job these days and those that are left are much more discriminating. And yes, the majority of H&S rules are valuable, but there should be more back-up for those ES staff who choose to ignore them, using their own expertise and a proper assessment of the situation to save a life/lives. | |||
"Exactly. ES staff don't have the luxury of deciding who is worth risking their own life for. But when you've done it for 18 years, risking your life several times a day for pissheads, druggies and Elton John fans, you burn out very quickly. There are fewer and fewer heroes queuing up for the job these days and those that are left are much more discriminating. And yes, the majority of H&S rules are valuable, but there should be more back-up for those ES staff who choose to ignore them, using their own expertise and a proper assessment of the situation to save a life/lives. " I am not sure what you are agreeing withm I was commenting that you were wrong in saying that some people are more worthy of being saved and some are less and that I did not feel that you were qualified (despite however many years of experience you may have) to make that choice..... I feel that you are slightly subverting my argument (with all due respect). Although the ES's don't swear the hipocratic oath etc, they are expected to behave as though they do and according to the letter of the law the paedophile is entitled to the same protection as the honorable virgin...... I am torn between agreeing with your second paragraph and disagreeing tbh so I won't comment on it.... | |||
" How much longer must we put up with this kind of politically correct health and safety shite ?? " H&S is not about 'PC', its about having effective safeguards, policies and procedures to minimise risk to 'workers' both short and long term.. It has and does save lives, its easy to adopt the jeremy clarkson / right wing redtop / CBI etcview that 'elf n safety' blights our daily lives and stops us doing 'normal' things.. Proper H&S does require proper resourcing to implement and maintain, time for training & funding.. Our Dave and his millionaire chums have cut the H&S Commision's funding whereby one area being directly affected is their ability to carry out 'unanounced' workplace inspections.. there will in time be an increase in deaths, serious injuries in the workplace as a consequence of this.. in the long term its far cheaper to have good H&S procedures, its also better for 'our' health as a society.. | |||
"but there should be more back-up for those ES staff who choose to ignore them, using their own expertise and a proper assessment of the situation to save a life/lives. " that will only happen 'if' the incident goes well.. 'if' the oic does discard the appropriate policy etc and it goes pear shaped he/she will be held to account by the employer as he/she will have received training in risk assesment etc.. | |||
" remember a few years ago when 4 firefighters local to me lost their lives entering a factory that was on fire?? their bosses are now facing manslaughter charges on the basis that they didnt follow health and safety precautions. It may seem ridiculous to you but eve emergency services have to have safety procedures. why risk further unecessary loss of life?" recognise what you are saying but as their case is ongoing may be an idea not to discuss on a public website.. | |||
"Exactly. ES staff don't have the luxury of deciding who is worth risking their own life for. But when you've done it for 18 years, risking your life several times a day for pissheads, druggies and Elton John fans, you burn out very quickly. There are fewer and fewer heroes queuing up for the job these days and those that are left are much more discriminating. And yes, the majority of H&S rules are valuable, but there should be more back-up for those ES staff who choose to ignore them, using their own expertise and a proper assessment of the situation to save a life/lives. I am not sure what you are agreeing withm I was commenting that you were wrong in saying that some people are more worthy of being saved and some are less and that I did not feel that you were qualified (despite however many years of experience you may have) to make that choice..... I feel that you are slightly subverting my argument (with all due respect). Although the ES's don't swear the hipocratic oath etc, they are expected to behave as though they do and according to the letter of the law the paedophile is entitled to the same protection as the honorable virgin...... I am torn between agreeing with your second paragraph and disagreeing tbh so I won't comment on it...." Ah, I understand where you're coming from now. You should have a look at the modern Hippocratic oath. Nothing in there at all about a physician being obligated to risk their own lives on behalf of their patients, and never has been. It isn't even a legal or professional obligation to take the oath, and many medics these days won't take it. | |||
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"The inquest is being held this week of the epilepsy sufferer who had a fitand fell into three deep duck pond and drowned. The fire crew who attended the scene were refused permission to enter the water by the commanding officer present at the scene. Defending his decision at the inquest the same officer said, 'the officers we had were trained only to enter ankle deep water, which is a level one, so we waited another half hour for the arrival of level two officers who can enter water up to chest height'. How much longer must we put up with this kind of politically correct health and safety shite ?? " That's a really great assurance to anyone who has epilepsy and falls unconscious that someone will perhaps NOT be acting in their best interests to keep them from harm, and following through the thread that probably includes most police, fire, ambulance, workplace, retail and public... all because they cannot distinguish a risk of death real-world decision from a paper procedure. Wonderful
Wolf
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"My Dad waded into a pond to save a little girl when we were nippers. It was instinctive and if he has not noticed her and waded in she would have drowned. How can anyone stand by and watch such a thing. . And if your dad had waded in to save a drowning person and that person grabbed hold of him and were flailing around so much that they pulled him under and they both drowned, or only he did, would you be so understanding then? There is always more than what is reported in the media, I have not heard about this case talked about here so I don't have an opinion, but its not always the best course of action to wade in without assessing any risk or the consequences thereafter, even though most of us would naturally want to "Yes, I would have understood that he was compelled to do it and would do the same. We are but fleeting upon this earth. Many think this life is everything and some think otherwise. Unfortunately, my Dad died young for other reasons. You never know what tomorrow holds. | |||
"yes it is horrible and i bet that not one of them were happy doing it however if they want to keep their jobs and avoid any potential law suits its what they have to do. Personally speaking, the chance of saving someone's life is more important than keeping a job or facing a lawsuit. " Hey boss, I quit, just going for a swim ""  | |||
" Ah, I understand where you're coming from now. You should have a look at the modern Hippocratic oath. Nothing in there at all about a physician being obligated to risk their own lives on behalf of their patients, and never has been. It isn't even a legal or professional obligation to take the oath, and many medics these days won't take it." no, you are right, but the aspect of the oath i am refering to, is the obligation to treat everyone to the limit of their skill, regardless of personal opinion, which relates directly to my point. btw to the fire fighter, i found your post informative. Ive met police i would watch burn, but understand why they are like that, paramedics can also be arogant, but you can see why, but never once have i met a fire fighter who wasnt cool... | |||
" Ah, I understand where you're coming from now. You should have a look at the modern Hippocratic oath. Nothing in there at all about a physician being obligated to risk their own lives on behalf of their patients, and never has been. It isn't even a legal or professional obligation to take the oath, and many medics these days won't take it. no, you are right, but the aspect of the oath i am refering to, is the obligation to treat everyone to the limit of their skill, regardless of personal opinion, which relates directly to my point. btw to the fire fighter, i found your post informative. Ive met police i would watch burn, but understand why they are like that, paramedics can also be arogant, but you can see why, but never once have i met a fire fighter who wasnt cool... " Cheers Gorgey!!
PS: We're not that cool when we come out of a fire where the flames have been directly above our heads - It gets a tad warm!lol | |||
... as wel GaGa, great post. | |||
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"An interesting thead here, with alll sorts of views being expressed. As a Firegfighter, I'll chip in my bit to the mix:" Excellent post and so far removed from others who have sought to blindly defend all actions by the Emergency Services instead of giving it thought. A dear friend of mine calle John Raven was killed in the Welham Green Kellogs fire in the late 60's early 70's. As a firefighter he put himself into all kinds of danger.. Then was killed attending a pump when a wall fell on him! Actually Gagaga.. You should be able to look up about that incident? I can't find it on the 'Net! No, the risk assessment wasn't done and if they had had to be done at that time, they wouldn't have parked the pump so close to a 50ft wall.. So I am not decrying the use of H&S or calling firemen in general. But, the actions of the posted incident firefighters leaves a lot to be desired. To turn one comment from the people who have answerd my posts on it's head... How would you feel if it was their loved one that was effectively left to die? As for the Ladder bit? I am not small, I am not worried about heights.. I did however, find out that day that I had a quite serious knee problem that needed surgery. Good thing is that I would not have found out in time to stop more damage, if I hadn't climbed that ladder! | |||
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" Ah, I understand where you're coming from now. You should have a look at the modern Hippocratic oath. Nothing in there at all about a physician being obligated to risk their own lives on behalf of their patients, and never has been. It isn't even a legal or professional obligation to take the oath, and many medics these days won't take it. no, you are right, but the aspect of the oath i am refering to, is the obligation to treat everyone to the limit of their skill, regardless of personal opinion, which relates directly to my point. btw to the fire fighter, i found your post informative. Ive met police i would watch burn, but understand why they are like that, paramedics can also be arogant, but you can see why, but never once have i met a fire fighter who wasnt cool... " 3rd time lucky!................ Paramedics are justifiably arrogant, because we're better than everyone else
My point was that we don't discriminate who and how we treat people, and therein lies the danger of the unpredictability of humans. I have a colleague who has saved an overdosed person's life, only to be stabbed for his efforts. Luckily, he survived. Are we issued with stab vests? No. We are attacked by d*unks. Are we given extensive self-defence training? No. In the case of the OP, there isn't even a requirement of joining to be able to swim. Ambulances have only carried personal life vests for about 6 years, some county services still don't. We don't carry ropes, floats or the like.
The vast majority of us do our jobs conscientiously, but are very often not backed up by equipment, proper training and frequency of skills usage. The ones that follow the book religiously usually end up with pips on their shoulders.
And to the firefighter - excellent post, very well put.
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